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Speaker 2: Hey, film Spotters, Adam and Josh. Here, we've got a

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Speaker 2: full show coming Friday as usual Project Tail, Mary Forty's

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Speaker 2: Madness Round two matchups. We thought, rather than cram yet

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Speaker 2: another thing into that episode, why not give you an

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Speaker 2: extra show. Here, we've got our conversation about Kelly Records.

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Speaker 2: Meek's Cutoff.

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Speaker 1: Meek's cut Off fifteen years old this spring. It came

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Speaker 1: to theaters April twenty eleven after playing the Venice, Toronto

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Speaker 1: and New York Film Festivals the previous fall that anniversary,

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Speaker 1: though that's not why we're talking about it necessarily. This

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Speaker 1: is happening because meeks cut Off was nominated for the

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Speaker 1: Film Spotting Pantheon. It is one of the nine films

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Speaker 1: Adam nominated by you Me and producer Sam for our

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six edition of the Pantheon project, so per

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Speaker 1: rules that we established just last year, only two of

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Speaker 1: those films, of those nine films are going to be

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Speaker 1: inducted into the Pantheon. That'll happen later this year.

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Speaker 2: Did you say, Adam, because you knew I may need

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Speaker 2: to be reminded of the rules.

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Speaker 1: I'm just always reminding myself as well. This is a

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Speaker 1: bit of a complicated endeavor, but I think we're still

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Speaker 1: on track, so let's keep moving forward.

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Speaker 2: It can get a little confusing. We didn't need to

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Speaker 2: rewatch and review all nine nominees because we the two

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Speaker 2: of us, have already discussed most of them on the show.

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Speaker 2: Three of them did need a proper conversation. We have

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Speaker 2: talked about two of those movies already, How Green was

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Speaker 2: My Valley and Akira Kurosawa was Rashamn. Meek's Cutoff is

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Speaker 2: the third and final wild card for the uninitiated. Meeks

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Speaker 2: Cutoff is set in eighteen forty five. A group of settlers,

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Speaker 2: Michelle William, Zoe Casey, and Shirley Henderson, Will Patt and

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Speaker 2: Paul Dano, among others, are being guided through Oregon to

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Speaker 2: the Willamette Valley. Their guide is Bruce Greenwood Stephen Meek.

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Speaker 2: He takes them off the Oregon Trail via the title shortcut,

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Speaker 2: which spoiler leads nowhere good. We follow land downhill.

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Speaker 1: We need water that much. I know that's what you

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Speaker 1: think that we lost.

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Speaker 2: I'd say that seems about the right word for it

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Speaker 2: when I lost. We're just find on our way.

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Speaker 1: I don't blame him for not knowing. I blame him

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Speaker 1: for saying he did. We made our decision. This is

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Speaker 1: only a bad dream.

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Speaker 2: Soon, there's going to be a story to tell now, Josh.

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Speaker 2: I nominated this film for the Pantheon because it made

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Speaker 2: both of our lists of the films of the last

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Speaker 2: quarter century, so the films of the century so far.

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Speaker 2: I believe we both have it listed as our favorite

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Speaker 2: Kelly Reikert film on a Tybox list number one, so

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Speaker 2: rare agreement from us on those filmography rankings and on

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Speaker 2: that nomination show. Fortunately, no one gave me grief about this,

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Speaker 2: even though they should have. And I'm sure it's a

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Speaker 2: title that Kelly Riker herself would soundly reject. I think

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Speaker 2: I referred to as the potential first Lady of film spotting,

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Speaker 2: and all I was trying to say is that over

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Speaker 2: twenty plus years of doing this show, we have talked

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Speaker 2: about a lot of her films. Really, all of her

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Speaker 2: films that have been released, we have considered them. We

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Speaker 2: have considered them in high esteem. And as I like

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Speaker 2: to point out, I'm pretty sure she has been interviewed

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Speaker 2: the most times on the show, three times by me.

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Speaker 2: So she is in great standing here on film spotting.

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Speaker 2: Is she an even greater standing after revisiting Meek's Cutoff?

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Speaker 2: And what revelations and I'm using that word very pointedly here,

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Speaker 2: what revelations did you have on this revisit?

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Speaker 1: Definitely, this film did not fall in my estimation by

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Speaker 1: revisiting it again, Adam, I think for me, especially in

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Speaker 1: the context of the work that would come from her later,

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Speaker 1: much of which I've greatly appreciated, has only illuminated what

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Speaker 1: I initially thought was so great about Meek's cut Off.

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Speaker 1: But I have now recognizing is this larger project I

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Speaker 1: think she's interested in. Not every single film she's made sense,

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Speaker 1: but to me, the majority of them, and the ones

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Speaker 1: that I happened to respond to the most, are these

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Speaker 1: films that are deconstructing the American myth and just to

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Speaker 1: look quickly. At a few of those, I would include

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Speaker 1: Sense and in one case before Meek's cut off. Actually,

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Speaker 1: but the Mastermind just from last year made my top

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Speaker 1: ten lists. There For me, it was deconstruction of American exceptionalism.

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Speaker 1: You have Josh O'Connor's JB as this fraud, just like

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Speaker 1: the supposed American military dominance in Vietnam that's taking place

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Speaker 1: in the background. Right. But look even at films like

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Speaker 1: Wendy and Lucy, an earlier one of hers, and then

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Speaker 1: one that came after meeks cut Off, Night Moves, I

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Speaker 1: think those are both exploration of capitalism's failure to bring

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Speaker 1: flourishing both to people and to the environment. And then

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Speaker 1: first Kyle, which we both love so much Adam is

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Speaker 1: similar to Meeks cut Off, not only in that it's

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Speaker 1: a period piece, but also both of those films, to

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Speaker 1: my mind, are exposing the hollowness of manifest destiny, particularly

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Speaker 1: American manifest destiny. And so watching Meeks cut off again

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Speaker 1: in the light of these other films which have explored

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Speaker 1: variations on this scene, on this theme in incredibly distinct ways,

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Speaker 1: I'm just treasuring her more as a particularly distinctive American

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Speaker 1: filmmaker and something else that was interesting that I brought

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Speaker 1: to this viewing of Meek's cutoff, which I couldn't have predicted,

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Speaker 1: and it's connected to this manifest destiny idea. The film

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Speaker 1: module I'm taking here as part of my master's program

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Speaker 1: at University of St. Andrews, we've been looking at one

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Speaker 1: of the units travelogues and early nonfiction films. So one

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Speaker 1: of these, for example, was this nineteen twenty three short

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Speaker 1: by the Ford Motor Company encouraging road trips to California's

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Speaker 1: giant forests. And it's just this fascinating piece about, you know,

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Speaker 1: telling the middle class Americans to buy a car and

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Speaker 1: get out there and conquer the forest. And I should

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Speaker 1: cite the author of a chapter we read, Jennifer Peterson,

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Speaker 1: who was just so insightful on that. I think she

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Speaker 1: coined the phrase scenic nationalism and connected it all the

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Speaker 1: way back to the post Civil War and this idea

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Speaker 1: of trying to unite a recently divided nation by going

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Speaker 1: west together actually in car trips or you know, eventually

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Speaker 1: car trips, but also virtually once we got the movies.

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Speaker 1: And so this brings us to the kinds of films

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Speaker 1: that are part of the mythological West that I think

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Speaker 1: Meek's cutoff is exactly trying to offer an undercutting of

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Speaker 1: an opposite vision of And so yeah, it was just

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Speaker 1: really interesting too with this sort of coursework in my

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Speaker 1: back of my mind. Watch Meek's cut off again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's her crowning achievement. Still, I'm not sliding

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Speaker 1: it anywhere. It's the crowning achievement of this larger project.

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Speaker 1: And maybe we'll I'll stop here, we can get into this.

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Speaker 1: The reason for me it's the crowning achievement is I

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Speaker 1: think it is formally so in tuned with this project

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Speaker 1: of undercutting the exciting, mythologizing heroic movie Western. How the

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Speaker 1: very form of meeks cut off is key to doing that,

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Speaker 1: which hopefully we'll spend time on.

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Speaker 2: Can I just say dittoh, I don't know how to

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Speaker 2: rephrase or restate or to top what you said, but

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Speaker 2: I am in agreement so much so it's certainly going

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Speaker 2: to stay at number one on my list of Kelly

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Speaker 2: Reiker films. But it also makes me think, what are

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Speaker 2: the other eight movies competing for a spot in the

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Speaker 2: pantheon and how are they better?

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Speaker 1: Than this one.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, look, when we put it up

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Speaker 2: for a vote, everyone can vote how they want. But

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Speaker 2: I'm going to give this one very very strong consideration.

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Speaker 2: Myself and you talked about deconstructing the American myth capitalism,

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Speaker 2: our capacity for violence, the patriarchy, exploitation of the disenfranchise.

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Speaker 2: It not only runs throughout most of those themes run

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Speaker 2: throughout in some form or fashion, all of her films,

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Speaker 2: but certainly this film. And maybe that's why I love

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Speaker 2: it so much, is that it's all here. All of

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Speaker 2: those themes are here, and without knowing it, I am.

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Speaker 2: It seems in total sync with your course material, Josh,

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Speaker 2: because back when I reviewed it originally on the show

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Speaker 2: just before or you joined the show. Actually, that's why

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Speaker 2: we need to talk about it now. I described it

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Speaker 2: in that review as manifest destiny, as a meditation on

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Speaker 2: free will and faith, and that goes back to my

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Speaker 2: use of the term revelation. You also said talking about

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Speaker 2: it or framing it in terms of the movies that

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Speaker 2: would come, and that's that's what you were speaking to

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Speaker 2: In my original notes. I said, then, you know, we

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Speaker 2: were we were living in the past. Then I said

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Speaker 2: that I loved thinking about Meek's cutoff within the context

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Speaker 2: of what was then this Oregon trilogy that she had

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Speaker 2: given us with Old Joy and Rydy and Lucy. Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: now we can look at it as this this folkrum

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Speaker 2: with a trilogy after it. Right Night moves certain women

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Speaker 2: and first Cow, as you said, and so it isn't.

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Speaker 2: It isn't a straight line across six movies, all of

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Speaker 2: those themes or or also the sort of progression or

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Speaker 2: evolution that I'm going to paint for you here. But

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Speaker 2: back in that original review, I talked about how it

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Speaker 2: just progressively got more expansive across the trilogy, and that's

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Speaker 2: what I appreciated so much about Meek's cutoff. You had

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Speaker 2: in Old Joy, two guys, a very fixed location, a

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Speaker 2: very fixed problem that they were dealing with, right Wendy

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Speaker 2: and Lucy, Wendy encountering on her journey more people. Still again,

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Speaker 2: it's sort of it's Wendy and Lucy, but they're meeting

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Speaker 2: some more people. There's more trouble on our way to Alaska.

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Speaker 2: And then we get to Meek's cutoff, when we've got

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Speaker 2: this bigger wagon train, this bigger journey, the openness of

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Speaker 2: the range of the American West and the potential hostility,

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Speaker 2: right and the obstacles that they're facing. But they're all bound.

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Speaker 2: And again I am I am quoting from my notes

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Speaker 2: here originally, and I saw it fully on display here

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Speaker 2: this time. All of those characters are bound by this

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Speaker 2: wonderful contradiction, which is they all seem completely free. They

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Speaker 2: all had the option, and they continue to have options.

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Speaker 2: They have choices, and choices are talked about a lot

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Speaker 2: in this movie to go whatever direction they want, to

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Speaker 2: shape their lives how they want. But they're stuck. They're

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Speaker 2: all confined. They're held back by whatever it is that

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Speaker 2: may be holding them back certain means. It could be

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Speaker 2: personal failings, it could be family, it could be a

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Speaker 2: lack of money, it could be by nature itself in

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Speaker 2: this case, right. So they're free, but they're stuck. Like

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Speaker 2: we see a character at the beginning of the film

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Speaker 2: right on that skeleton lost in big letters. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're free, but they're lost. And so there's just this

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Speaker 2: this striving where they seem to be or heading in

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Speaker 2: the direction of exactly whatever it is they seem to want.

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Speaker 2: It's there, but it's also always just moving out of

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Speaker 2: their reach, and that seems to be a recurring theme

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Speaker 2: with her characters and within her films. And it's so appropriate, Josh,

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Speaker 2: because as I was rethinking this today, revisiting my notes today,

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Speaker 2: revisiting this film and putting my new notes together, I

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Speaker 2: was thinking about Or. I saw a quote that I

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Speaker 2: had written down from Reikert, something she said. I was

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Speaker 2: preparing for an interview, one of those past interviews, and

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Speaker 2: she said something so perfect that will really inform or

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Speaker 2: or should inform what you were talking about with your class.

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Speaker 2: Something that she said in a podcast Q and A.

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Speaker 2: I think it was after a screening of Meek's Cutoff

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Speaker 2: for Film Forum maybe, and they were talking about Or.

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Speaker 2: The question was about how her films do or don't

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Speaker 2: fit into these different genre schemes, and she said this,

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Speaker 2: and it's so perfect. She said, they all end up

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Speaker 2: being road movies, though sort of in the end. I guess. Really,

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Speaker 2: they're all in the end people trying to go somewhere

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Speaker 2: and not being able to go somewhere. And that really

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Speaker 2: is it isn't it isn't Niecks cut Off just a

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Speaker 2: very bleak road movie with within the sheen of a Western.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and even you know her her very debut River

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Speaker 1: of Grass has that quality of yes of at least

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Speaker 1: that's thing they were talking about. Yeah, oh okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: get out of the way started or prompted it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, that's definitely a through line. Can I

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Speaker 1: can I push you further towards what you were talking

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Speaker 1: about with the idea of choices, because I'm really interested

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Speaker 1: in that and it's not it's not something I fully

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Speaker 1: wrapped my mind around, even though I paid more attention

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Speaker 1: to it this time. And it's connected. I think you

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Speaker 1: also said revelation and faith. Right, is this this sort

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Speaker 1: of biblical bookend she gives to the movie where very

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Speaker 1: early on we hear the one family reading from the Bible,

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Speaker 1: and it's the Genesis story about Adam and Eve, you know,

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Speaker 1: eating from the Tree of knowledge good and evil, then

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Speaker 1: being barred from the Tree of life, bared from the

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Speaker 1: garden of Eden. Right, So you can see obviously it's

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Speaker 1: a parallel and it's setting up where these people are

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Speaker 1: and it's interesting, right, But is it gonna Is it

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Speaker 1: just kind of a little detail that has a fun

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Speaker 1: other layer. But then when we get to the ending,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, we're going to spoil this. There is the

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Speaker 1: potential a choice here that they have before, a potential

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Speaker 1: tree of life. They find this rare tree. I love

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Speaker 1: the detail that, like the bottom half still seems to

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Speaker 1: be living, but the top half is dead. So it's

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Speaker 1: not this light ran Yeah, some ambiguity exactly, Yes, And

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Speaker 1: they talk about their final choice. Now, as desperate as

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Speaker 1: they are, this is the most desperate they've been. Do

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Speaker 1: they continue to follow this Native America and who they've

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Speaker 1: kidnapped and forced to quote unquote lead them they hope

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Speaker 1: to water, or do they go a different direction and try,

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Speaker 1: not knowing if they'll be able to find the main

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Speaker 1: trail again. So it's this long conversation about their choices,

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Speaker 1: and Meek says at one point this was written long

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Speaker 1: before we got here. Yes, as they're debating, and I'm so,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to put all this together. I don't need

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Speaker 1: an answer. I just love that it's that this ambiguous

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Speaker 1: existential parable in a way it could be, and leave

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Speaker 1: it at that. But when you brought up choices, I

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Speaker 1: thought maybe you might have some more thoughts on this

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Speaker 1: than I did. And the nature of free will, right,

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Speaker 1: because that's the story of Eden is what humanity does

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Speaker 1: with their free will and they choose disobedience and independence,

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Speaker 1: and we can maybe connect that with this party. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but certainly free will is in the discussion

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Speaker 1: at the ending as well. What is the free will

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Speaker 1: cho choice they're going to make? So, yeah, I want

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Speaker 1: to hear more from you on that, because it was

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Speaker 1: a fascinating element to me that I'm still pondering.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have a lot, I think to say about

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Speaker 2: the potential allegorical elements here, and you're right, it starts

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Speaker 2: with the Genesis conversation and you cannot deny the book end.

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Speaker 2: And that was something I saw upon original viewing the

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Speaker 2: Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge and that

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Speaker 2: choice at the very end, and what we're supposed to

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Speaker 2: make of that. Now watching it again and knowing that

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Speaker 2: having that in the back of my mind, watching the film,

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Speaker 2: you're able to pick up on so many more things

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Speaker 2: that first viewing in a theater right where you're just

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Speaker 2: you're just trying to follow the narrative and hopefully you're

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Speaker 2: picking up on some insights and you have some things

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Speaker 2: to say that are intelligent during the review that you're

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Speaker 2: going to have here on the show. You're not going

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Speaker 2: to catch everything. And I maybe even didn't catch everything

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Speaker 2: this time, Josh, I'm not gonna purport that, but I

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Speaker 2: will say I caught a lot more than I did

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Speaker 2: that first time. And this movie, I think is in

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Speaker 2: the screenplay by Jonathan Raymond, and they've collaborated on other

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Speaker 2: projects it. It is littered with these allegorical elements that

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Speaker 2: raise this movie from from just being on the level

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Speaker 2: of the road movie level, which it absolutely functions on, right,

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Speaker 2: but it takes it to another another plane. And so

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Speaker 2: you can just start, of course by looking at even

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Speaker 2: though it would be appropriate for the era or you know,

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Speaker 2: for the time in which it's set, just look at

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Speaker 2: some of the character names, right. Shirley Henderson's character is

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Speaker 2: named Glory. The fact that he's named Meek, which is

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Speaker 2: something he, of course seems to be battling against the

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Speaker 2: entire time. The way he characterizes himself and tries to

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Speaker 2: behave it's as if he's trying to show the world

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Speaker 2: that that's not who he is. Solomon Emily. Michelle Williams's

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Speaker 2: character will Pat and his name Solomon Emily. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if there's any biblical connection to Emily I don't

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Speaker 2: immediately connect it to the Bible, but then the fact

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Speaker 2: that her last name, and I could be stretching here, Josh,

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Speaker 2: but I do love that her name is Tetherow. This

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Speaker 2: idea of being tethered, which is of course what I

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Speaker 2: immediately think of in the way we'll get into this more,

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Speaker 2: but the way she initially anyway is tethered to the

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Speaker 2: wagon and the camera is tethered to her. That's tethered

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Speaker 2: to the wagon, and that there seems to be a

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Speaker 2: place for her and the women at least early on

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Speaker 2: right in this environment. But let's get back to the Bible,

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Speaker 2: and let's go back as well to Meek just for

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Speaker 2: a second, within this deconstruction of capitalism, and you mentioned

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Speaker 2: the mastermind. You know from the moment you meet Meek,

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Speaker 2: at least on this second viewing that he is a

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Speaker 2: James Blaine Mooney level con okay, and if he's not that,

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Speaker 2: And this is what I do like about the bris

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Speaker 2: Greene performance, and what I really like about the screen

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Speaker 2: is there's ambiguity here too, because he is that con

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Speaker 2: or he's just plain crazy or as Emily asks, right,

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Speaker 2: and this gets back to the Bible part. Is he

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Speaker 2: ignorant or is he just plain evil evil? So yeah,

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Speaker 2: evil evil takes us to another realm, doesn't it. It

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Speaker 2: takes us to another sort of spiritual realm. And the

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Speaker 2: way they talk about choices, the way they talk about

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Speaker 2: him as a character, it it does place me within

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Speaker 2: the realm of being a godlike figure. And they are

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Speaker 2: throughout the film debating whether or not they are going

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Speaker 2: to choose to I think, expel themselves from his control,

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Speaker 2: and he is co constantly trying to maintain his control

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Speaker 2: over them. Think about when Paul Dano at one point

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Speaker 2: he plays Gately and there's a brief bit where about

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Speaker 2: halfway through where Meek takes off and what does he say.

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Speaker 2: He's abandoned us. That's his phrase. He's abandoned us, right,

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Speaker 2: And when they talk about him early on that first

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Speaker 2: conversation which I want to come back to as well

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Speaker 2: because I love I love a lot about it. But

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Speaker 2: that first conversation we see between Michelle Williams and will

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Speaker 2: Patten the husband and wife at Night, that gives us

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Speaker 2: a lot of background information as well. They're talking about

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Speaker 2: what to do this dilemma with Meek, and he says,

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Speaker 2: I think he's talking about maybe Gately one of the

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Speaker 2: other characters. But the way they describe their choice to

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Speaker 2: just keep the status quo with Meek is they say,

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Speaker 2: we're at the man's mercy now, it's like they're at

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Speaker 2: the mercy of God like like like we have to

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Speaker 2: just give in to his will because that's the choice

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Speaker 2: that we've made at that point. That's how they feel.

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Speaker 2: How about how about the phrasing Josh, They they feel

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Speaker 2: like this confuses it a little bit. But this whole

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Speaker 2: notion of wandering, you know, whether or not we should

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Speaker 2: have wandered from the main path and now we're off

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Speaker 2: on this other path even though they're following, they're following him.

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Speaker 2: That that messes with the analogy, but it also messes

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Speaker 2: with these characters and their their sense of who they

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Speaker 2: should be following and what they should be doing and

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Speaker 2: what choices they should be making. Right And then the

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Speaker 2: big thing for me, the biggest thing for me, that

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Speaker 2: really solidified this allegorical element this time, and they made

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Speaker 2: it really potent this time and put me in the

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Speaker 2: place of these characters in this difficult choice they these

365
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Speaker 2: difficult choices they were making. Is the way Meek maintain

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Speaker 2: his control is the way. Sadly, historically some religions have

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Speaker 2: maintained their control. His cudgel is fear. His cudgel is

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of Indians out there, and they're really scary,

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Speaker 2: and that's why we had to get off on this.

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Speaker 2: It's not just a shortcut. We took this path because

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Speaker 2: we're getting away from the scary Indians. And when they

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Speaker 2: do see one, think about how he spins the tail.

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Speaker 2: He talks about how, oh, you're lucky to be alive,

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Speaker 2: miss Tethereau. I'm surprised she lived to tell the tale.

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Speaker 2: He just really really gets into it when they come

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Speaker 2: on a woman. He talks about enslavement and all these things. Right,

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Speaker 2: so he is this he's this figure who uses fear

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Speaker 2: to to try to lord his to have control over them.

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Speaker 2: And then he even at one point, Josh, if it's

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Speaker 2: not explicit enough for you, he says, the land we're

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Speaker 2: headed for is a second Eden's. He's promising them paradise. Right,

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Speaker 2: So it's it's all there.

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Speaker 1: Let me jump in here because I love this and

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Speaker 1: it had not occurred to me, but you've got my

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Speaker 1: brain whirlin now. Definitely think that's a valid reading or

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Speaker 1: or is meek the serpent in the garden as you're talking?

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Speaker 1: Is he a great deceiver? Is he the one?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 1: And that's the line that you just quoted. Is the

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Speaker 1: one where which made me think of it? Is you know,

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Speaker 1: he's promising something better, not what is already had. Now

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Speaker 1: this reading, this reading contradicts what I think we've identified

393
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Speaker 1: as a larger record project, which would not affirm the

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Speaker 1: Oregon Trail at all. Right, that's sort of that sort

395
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Speaker 1: of like overtaking of the land for for greed for

396
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Speaker 1: capitalism is not something films would necessarily endorse. But you

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Speaker 1: could read this as the trail, the main trail, being

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Speaker 1: the right way, the way, the way to walk in

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Speaker 1: the life, and the way to stay stream. He's led

400
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Speaker 1: them astray by promises thereof the gold, and doesn't he

401
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Speaker 1: doesn't he say what they find to a land of

402
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Speaker 1: milk and honey.

403
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Speaker 2: So he's yeah, the second eden's the only line I remember,

404
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Speaker 2: but you're yeah, I.

405
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Speaker 1: Think he says land of milk and honey at one point,

406
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Speaker 1: So he's using biblical language and he's as it relates

407
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Speaker 1: to his tails too. Every story he tells the only

408
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Speaker 1: one who knows he's not lying is the kid. And

409
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Speaker 1: that's why he rides next to the kid, because it's

410
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Speaker 1: the only at this point, it's the only audience he

411
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Speaker 1: has left because everyone else knows he's just full of it.

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Speaker 2: And just to your point, don't they come across I mean,

413
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Speaker 2: they come across along the way the earthly riches of gold.

414
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Speaker 2: They actually find it. Think about the allure of that, right,

415
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Speaker 2: So they don't have basic sustenance to survive, that's the

416
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Speaker 2: iron list to it.

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Speaker 1: But they do come across the gold on this path.

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Speaker 1: And I think you know, Rod Rondeau plays the Native

419
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Speaker 1: American credited you know in the criss as this figure.

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Speaker 1: They come across and end up kidnapping again, so they

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Speaker 1: hope that they'll he will be able to lead them

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Speaker 1: to some water. And I'm thinking about this now, Adam.

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Speaker 1: The way as you describe Meek describing Native Americans general

424
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Speaker 1: is just like completely out of bounds, racist, xenophobic, like

425
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Speaker 1: just making up the most horrible things you could as

426
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Speaker 1: to your point to engender fear again more lies. And

427
00:26:00,645 --> 00:26:05,845
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, you know, if the choice at the end,

428
00:26:07,205 --> 00:26:10,765
Speaker 1: I like that Meek steps away if we're read if

429
00:26:10,765 --> 00:26:14,244
Speaker 1: I'm reading him as this deceiver figure because you know,

430
00:26:14,365 --> 00:26:16,525
Speaker 1: Satan in the Garden stepped away. It was like, it

431
00:26:16,605 --> 00:26:20,725
Speaker 1: was more like, well, you know, there's this option that

432
00:26:20,805 --> 00:26:23,605
Speaker 1: you didn't you know, if you read the text, doesn't

433
00:26:23,645 --> 00:26:26,085
Speaker 1: like force it upon him or demand it or really

434
00:26:26,125 --> 00:26:27,925
Speaker 1: beat him over the head with it. It's like, you know,

435
00:26:28,885 --> 00:26:30,525
Speaker 1: and so I like, how Meek at the point of

436
00:26:30,525 --> 00:26:33,365
Speaker 1: decision at this new tree, which, as we've described as

437
00:26:33,445 --> 00:26:36,525
Speaker 1: not necessarily the tree of life or the tree of

438
00:26:36,645 --> 00:26:39,605
Speaker 1: knowledge of good and evil, it's this ambiguous tree, Meek

439
00:26:39,685 --> 00:26:42,645
Speaker 1: kind of steps back and says, you know, whatever I

440
00:26:42,725 --> 00:26:45,645
Speaker 1: quoted before something, this was written long before we got here.

441
00:26:46,365 --> 00:26:49,565
Speaker 1: And maybe the choice is maybe going back to the

442
00:26:49,605 --> 00:26:52,605
Speaker 1: trail is the right choice, trying to at least making

443
00:26:52,645 --> 00:26:57,245
Speaker 1: that effort. Whereas you know, to follow the Native American,

444
00:26:57,405 --> 00:27:00,645
Speaker 1: it's not putting negative implications on him, but it's the

445
00:27:00,685 --> 00:27:05,805
Speaker 1: fact that he is this kidnapped, kidnapped, abused figure. To

446
00:27:05,965 --> 00:27:10,645
Speaker 1: follow him would be essentially choosing to continue exploitation. Right, Yes,

447
00:27:10,645 --> 00:27:13,805
Speaker 1: if they followed him, they're still exploiting him. And so

448
00:27:14,285 --> 00:27:16,805
Speaker 1: if you're looking at this in some sort of parable terms,

449
00:27:18,325 --> 00:27:21,365
Speaker 1: maybe the quote unquote right answer would be try to

450
00:27:21,405 --> 00:27:23,725
Speaker 1: get back on the right path. Yes, I don't know

451
00:27:26,125 --> 00:27:29,525
Speaker 1: or but this is at the core of the film.

452
00:27:29,565 --> 00:27:32,325
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, hopefully, if there's any takeaway, this

453
00:27:32,445 --> 00:27:36,045
Speaker 2: is absolutely embedded into the fabric of this film, the

454
00:27:36,045 --> 00:27:39,805
Speaker 2: fabric of this film also being the screenplay. And obviously

455
00:27:40,245 --> 00:27:42,085
Speaker 2: I think it makes sense and it's not a surprise

456
00:27:42,165 --> 00:27:45,485
Speaker 2: that your your reframing of what I was saying is

457
00:27:45,565 --> 00:27:50,045
Speaker 2: much more spiritually sound. They are looking to him, they

458
00:27:50,285 --> 00:27:52,565
Speaker 2: hope they are putting their faith in him, at least

459
00:27:52,645 --> 00:27:54,805
Speaker 2: early on at the start of this journey, which we

460
00:27:54,845 --> 00:27:58,205
Speaker 2: don't really see. That's the whole point we're coming into

461
00:27:58,205 --> 00:28:00,445
Speaker 2: this journey. That's one of the things I love about

462
00:28:00,485 --> 00:28:02,765
Speaker 2: this film. We're coming into it at the point, at

463
00:28:02,765 --> 00:28:05,045
Speaker 2: the point where there's already a fracture in their faith.

464
00:28:05,405 --> 00:28:08,245
Speaker 2: The crisis has already begun. They started the journey with

465
00:28:08,325 --> 00:28:12,325
Speaker 2: full faith, so they started it believing in him as

466
00:28:12,645 --> 00:28:15,365
Speaker 2: this godlike figure who's going to take them to the

467
00:28:15,365 --> 00:28:19,484
Speaker 2: Promised Land on this path. He he either always was,

468
00:28:19,645 --> 00:28:22,885
Speaker 2: you know, the deceiver, or he becomes it. But that's

469
00:28:22,925 --> 00:28:25,765
Speaker 2: what he does turn into, and he's led them astray.

470
00:28:25,925 --> 00:28:29,045
Speaker 2: So he's using the guys of the godlike figure and

471
00:28:29,085 --> 00:28:33,405
Speaker 2: that's why they are so confused and they are questioning everything.

472
00:28:33,445 --> 00:28:37,925
Speaker 2: There is uncertainty, and Josh, what is a better allegory

473
00:28:37,965 --> 00:28:43,445
Speaker 2: for life than uncertainty? Right? Questioning our place in this

474
00:28:43,525 --> 00:28:46,925
Speaker 2: world and having to make these difficult choices. That's what

475
00:28:47,005 --> 00:28:50,005
Speaker 2: this film, in addition all these other things we're talking about,

476
00:28:50,005 --> 00:28:52,965
Speaker 2: and also just working as a quote unquote road movie.

477
00:28:53,325 --> 00:28:56,045
Speaker 2: That's what this movie is really fundamentally dealing with. Now

478
00:28:56,565 --> 00:29:00,245
Speaker 2: we talk about what also makes it really interesting formally.

479
00:29:01,565 --> 00:29:05,485
Speaker 2: I love the fact right that we don't hear we

480
00:29:05,565 --> 00:29:12,405
Speaker 2: actually don't hear Meek until about ten minutes into the movie.

481
00:29:12,485 --> 00:29:15,485
Speaker 2: We've seen him when he has that like Lebowski like

482
00:29:15,725 --> 00:29:18,565
Speaker 2: emergence from the tent, you know, with the beard, and

483
00:29:18,605 --> 00:29:20,645
Speaker 2: he's kind of bedraggled and everything like he had a

484
00:29:20,685 --> 00:29:24,005
Speaker 2: rough right, but from a Wild the West show. That's right,

485
00:29:24,205 --> 00:29:28,565
Speaker 2: But we don't hear him until ten minutes in. And

486
00:29:29,445 --> 00:29:35,765
Speaker 2: that's notable because we hear him first from Williams's point

487
00:29:35,805 --> 00:29:38,925
Speaker 2: of view, and that sets that sets the table, and

488
00:29:38,925 --> 00:29:41,045
Speaker 2: that's really the first time we've seen her, or it's

489
00:29:41,165 --> 00:29:44,365
Speaker 2: established her point of view as a character ten minutes in,

490
00:29:44,565 --> 00:29:48,365
Speaker 2: and that's then going to establish that conceit for the

491
00:29:48,405 --> 00:29:51,285
Speaker 2: rest of the movie. How often it's going to rely

492
00:29:51,405 --> 00:29:54,885
Speaker 2: on her point of view primarily, but the women usually

493
00:29:55,085 --> 00:29:58,165
Speaker 2: at the back. Think about how often distance we at

494
00:29:58,205 --> 00:30:01,085
Speaker 2: a distance, how often we're put in that position and

495
00:30:01,125 --> 00:30:05,045
Speaker 2: we hear, we have to overhear what the men are saying,

496
00:30:05,245 --> 00:30:08,085
Speaker 2: what they're delivering about, and how often we actually hear

497
00:30:08,205 --> 00:30:13,325
Speaker 2: characters verbalize, especially Shirley Henderson's glory, what are they talking about? Right?

498
00:30:13,725 --> 00:30:16,245
Speaker 2: What are they saying? She has to say this two, three,

499
00:30:16,365 --> 00:30:19,245
Speaker 2: four times in this movie, you know, and it does

500
00:30:19,325 --> 00:30:21,925
Speaker 2: make you think about on a meta level, if you

501
00:30:21,925 --> 00:30:25,325
Speaker 2: do step outside the film for a second, who is

502
00:30:25,445 --> 00:30:30,765
Speaker 2: excluded from westerns, but who's also excluded from the American story.

503
00:30:30,925 --> 00:30:33,765
Speaker 2: You know, you spoke to this earlier. You could and

504
00:30:33,805 --> 00:30:36,365
Speaker 2: should say that the answer starts along gender lines when

505
00:30:36,365 --> 00:30:39,005
Speaker 2: discussing this movie, because we are talking about the women

506
00:30:39,205 --> 00:30:42,165
Speaker 2: at the back trying to hear, trying to get a

507
00:30:42,165 --> 00:30:44,485
Speaker 2: sense of what's happening. But it doesn't have to be

508
00:30:44,805 --> 00:30:48,685
Speaker 2: limited to just women. Glory at one point slights African

509
00:30:48,725 --> 00:30:51,485
Speaker 2: Americans in a very in a very noticeable way, in

510
00:30:51,565 --> 00:30:54,885
Speaker 2: a very notable way. But later with the introduction of

511
00:30:54,965 --> 00:30:59,485
Speaker 2: the Native American character. That's where it really comes to

512
00:30:59,525 --> 00:31:02,205
Speaker 2: the four that we understand that it is fundamentally about,

513
00:31:02,365 --> 00:31:05,605
Speaker 2: or what this movie is dealing with is is anybody

514
00:31:05,645 --> 00:31:09,285
Speaker 2: who's been exploited or disenfranchised has been left out of

515
00:31:09,325 --> 00:31:13,085
Speaker 2: this story. And the camera, the camera mirrors that for

516
00:31:13,165 --> 00:31:17,605
Speaker 2: us formally right by leaving people out of the narrative,

517
00:31:17,605 --> 00:31:21,645
Speaker 2: they're not in on the information. They don't know what's

518
00:31:21,725 --> 00:31:25,805
Speaker 2: going on. The camera is always at the back. And

519
00:31:25,805 --> 00:31:28,125
Speaker 2: and there is something there's something then too that speaks

520
00:31:28,125 --> 00:31:30,565
Speaker 2: to that idea of faith. Right they already, these women

521
00:31:30,605 --> 00:31:32,965
Speaker 2: have already had to put their their faith in Meek

522
00:31:33,405 --> 00:31:36,005
Speaker 2: right on this journey. In the larger sense, now they

523
00:31:36,045 --> 00:31:39,085
Speaker 2: have to also put their faith in the men who

524
00:31:39,085 --> 00:31:41,605
Speaker 2: are up ahead making all the decisions, and they have

525
00:31:41,645 --> 00:31:45,405
Speaker 2: to hope that they're they're gonna make the right decisions.

526
00:31:45,405 --> 00:31:47,805
Speaker 2: And then, of course at the end, when we see

527
00:31:47,845 --> 00:31:52,005
Speaker 2: the tree, the point of view finally changes. It's the

528
00:31:52,085 --> 00:31:55,125
Speaker 2: Indian and I really do love just watching the performance

529
00:31:55,165 --> 00:32:00,205
Speaker 2: of rod ron do He's leading now finally Emily's in front.

530
00:32:00,405 --> 00:32:03,125
Speaker 2: It's her point of view, looking ahead, you know, looking

531
00:32:03,125 --> 00:32:06,125
Speaker 2: ahead at the tree, not at men, not at not

532
00:32:06,205 --> 00:32:09,205
Speaker 2: at the men looking ahead at the at the tree

533
00:32:09,565 --> 00:32:12,805
Speaker 2: right in front of her, one man sick in the wagon.

534
00:32:12,925 --> 00:32:15,325
Speaker 2: Others aren't even in the shot when we when we

535
00:32:15,405 --> 00:32:18,165
Speaker 2: hear Solomon say whoa, he's the first one who seems

536
00:32:18,205 --> 00:32:20,565
Speaker 2: to notice the tree, but we don't see him. We

537
00:32:20,645 --> 00:32:25,365
Speaker 2: only hear him. Emily hears him and stops again. Reikert

538
00:32:25,485 --> 00:32:29,685
Speaker 2: has us hear the man through Emily's ears, but not

539
00:32:29,685 --> 00:32:32,245
Speaker 2: not show us the man. But what matters is is

540
00:32:32,285 --> 00:32:35,925
Speaker 2: that she's in front. Now, she's leading as everyone else

541
00:32:36,725 --> 00:32:37,765
Speaker 2: enters the shot.

542
00:32:37,885 --> 00:32:41,365
Speaker 1: It's remarkable and it's such a skill for progression to

543
00:32:41,405 --> 00:32:42,085
Speaker 1: get to that point.

544
00:32:42,165 --> 00:32:42,285
Speaker 2: Right.

545
00:32:42,325 --> 00:32:45,605
Speaker 1: This is not like this could come out guns blazing

546
00:32:45,645 --> 00:32:49,085
Speaker 1: from the beginning as a feminist Western right where where

547
00:32:49,125 --> 00:32:54,525
Speaker 1: you know Michelle Williams, Emily is immediately throwing her weight around,

548
00:32:54,525 --> 00:32:57,565
Speaker 1: taking charge. Is someone we root for against the you know,

549
00:32:57,645 --> 00:33:01,565
Speaker 1: it's it's very attentive to the reality of the situation

550
00:33:01,645 --> 00:33:03,765
Speaker 1: and the ways you describe by the camera placement and

551
00:33:03,805 --> 00:33:07,125
Speaker 1: the having to overhear these conversations, and then this slow

552
00:33:07,205 --> 00:33:10,125
Speaker 1: progression towards where she does become one of the leaders.

553
00:33:10,525 --> 00:33:15,605
Speaker 1: What I love within this context is how it makes

554
00:33:15,725 --> 00:33:20,965
Speaker 1: room for this very equitable within this time period merit

555
00:33:21,565 --> 00:33:24,685
Speaker 1: between Emily and Solomon, Yes, where he comes back to

556
00:33:24,765 --> 00:33:28,485
Speaker 1: the tent at night and reports to her in full

557
00:33:28,525 --> 00:33:33,645
Speaker 1: detail the men's conversation because he genuinely needs her counsel.

558
00:33:33,805 --> 00:33:38,005
Speaker 1: He recognizes her wisdom. And they don't always agree like that,

559
00:33:38,085 --> 00:33:40,645
Speaker 1: they have their own opinions, but they go back and

560
00:33:40,685 --> 00:33:43,685
Speaker 1: forth on this and that the film takes time for

561
00:33:43,765 --> 00:33:48,005
Speaker 1: that relationship. It's a very special depiction of marriage in

562
00:33:48,005 --> 00:33:51,525
Speaker 1: this movie, which is interesting that they find space to

563
00:33:51,565 --> 00:33:55,445
Speaker 1: offer that as well. And at the same time, you know,

564
00:33:55,565 --> 00:33:59,405
Speaker 1: it's true to the work that the women are doing

565
00:33:59,445 --> 00:34:01,805
Speaker 1: and contributing. This is very much I kept thinking about

566
00:34:02,125 --> 00:34:05,925
Speaker 1: in The Mastermind, that long comic if you enjoyed it,

567
00:34:06,005 --> 00:34:10,005
Speaker 1: sequence of O'Connor's character trying to get the paintings up

568
00:34:10,045 --> 00:34:13,645
Speaker 1: in the up in the hayloft, right and we're watching him,

569
00:34:13,844 --> 00:34:17,605
Speaker 1: and that's a process sequence right now. They're kind of

570
00:34:17,645 --> 00:34:20,005
Speaker 1: for comic effect, but we get a lot of process

571
00:34:20,085 --> 00:34:24,884
Speaker 1: sequences here of you know, the women mending something or

572
00:34:24,925 --> 00:34:28,645
Speaker 1: preparing a meal, and it's attentive to all of their

573
00:34:28,685 --> 00:34:33,085
Speaker 1: contributions to this project. And in that way, it's I

574
00:34:33,165 --> 00:34:39,725
Speaker 1: suppose feminist compared to the more traditional Western story depiction

575
00:34:39,845 --> 00:34:43,245
Speaker 1: you would get here, and speaking of you know, other differences.

576
00:34:43,485 --> 00:34:46,245
Speaker 1: Just in the form of this movie, you could consider

577
00:34:46,325 --> 00:34:49,965
Speaker 1: this slow cinema in a way, just the time it

578
00:34:50,125 --> 00:34:54,845
Speaker 1: gives to characters passing across the screen, to some of

579
00:34:54,885 --> 00:34:59,844
Speaker 1: these processes. I described a lot of wagons creaking. How

580
00:34:59,885 --> 00:35:05,085
Speaker 1: about the sound design here you have creaking wagons, crunching

581
00:35:05,165 --> 00:35:08,725
Speaker 1: feet and if there is shrubbery around, which is rare,

582
00:35:09,005 --> 00:35:11,485
Speaker 1: like the wind rustling through it. And I think that's

583
00:35:11,485 --> 00:35:15,884
Speaker 1: about it unless someone's talking, and that just creates this

584
00:35:16,685 --> 00:35:20,725
Speaker 1: not only quote unquote realistic, but almost a hypnotic like

585
00:35:21,125 --> 00:35:23,925
Speaker 1: in the sense of slow cinema, hypnotic experience. That's what

586
00:35:24,005 --> 00:35:26,605
Speaker 1: I first responded to about this is like I am

587
00:35:26,645 --> 00:35:31,844
Speaker 1: in a historical world that also feels completely new and

588
00:35:31,925 --> 00:35:36,045
Speaker 1: fresh as an experience, as a cinematic experience. Now, mileage

589
00:35:36,085 --> 00:35:39,205
Speaker 1: is going to vary. You know, people famously find this

590
00:35:39,725 --> 00:35:43,405
Speaker 1: movie boring, and I guess you could see that. But

591
00:35:43,445 --> 00:35:45,885
Speaker 1: I don't think it's just to be slow or to

592
00:35:45,965 --> 00:35:48,325
Speaker 1: have this pace. I think it's related to the fact

593
00:35:48,645 --> 00:35:50,845
Speaker 1: some of these themes we've been talking about. This is

594
00:35:50,845 --> 00:35:55,285
Speaker 1: a land that is refusing to be conquered. So it's

595
00:35:55,405 --> 00:36:01,285
Speaker 1: pushing back against that manifest destiny, that exceptionalism. And so

596
00:36:01,405 --> 00:36:03,645
Speaker 1: the movie in turn is not going to be as

597
00:36:04,005 --> 00:36:07,844
Speaker 1: anthropocentric as you might expect a Western to be. It's

598
00:36:07,885 --> 00:36:12,525
Speaker 1: attentive to these characters and their needs, but it's always

599
00:36:12,565 --> 00:36:16,364
Speaker 1: against the stark reality of this landscape. Yes, and the

600
00:36:16,365 --> 00:36:19,605
Speaker 1: only way to really feel that is for the camera

601
00:36:19,725 --> 00:36:23,285
Speaker 1: to give it the space and the time, which is

602
00:36:23,325 --> 00:36:27,605
Speaker 1: what puts it in the slow cinema sort of area,

603
00:36:27,725 --> 00:36:29,445
Speaker 1: which is one of the things I treasure about it.

604
00:36:30,045 --> 00:36:34,045
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree there has to be an immersive quality

605
00:36:34,485 --> 00:36:40,005
Speaker 2: to it. It does seem unfortunate to phrase it this way,

606
00:36:40,125 --> 00:36:44,445
Speaker 2: but they're having a very negative experience, and not that

607
00:36:44,485 --> 00:36:47,405
Speaker 2: we as viewers are having a very negative experience. I

608
00:36:47,445 --> 00:36:51,125
Speaker 2: certainly haven't had a negative experience both times I've watched it.

609
00:36:51,205 --> 00:36:53,045
Speaker 2: But there has to be a little bit of quote

610
00:36:53,085 --> 00:36:57,525
Speaker 2: unquote unpleasantness. It can't be a rollicking good time. Yeah,

611
00:36:57,525 --> 00:37:00,844
Speaker 2: we have to understand that this is slow going. You know,

612
00:37:01,325 --> 00:37:04,445
Speaker 2: this is a bit punishing. That's okay. It doesn't feel

613
00:37:04,485 --> 00:37:06,645
Speaker 2: punishing though as a viewer to me, and I like

614
00:37:06,685 --> 00:37:09,205
Speaker 2: what you said a lot. I mentioned the conversation. I

615
00:37:09,205 --> 00:37:12,205
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about this, that first conversation between husband

616
00:37:12,245 --> 00:37:14,884
Speaker 2: and wife, because I think it's so revealing. And one

617
00:37:14,885 --> 00:37:17,365
Speaker 2: of the things it reveals is that they're having a

618
00:37:17,405 --> 00:37:21,125
Speaker 2: conversation that very clearly the other husbands and wives their

619
00:37:21,165 --> 00:37:24,325
Speaker 2: couples are not having. And that's why the dynamic and

620
00:37:24,365 --> 00:37:27,805
Speaker 2: the relationships that they have are very different, and the

621
00:37:27,885 --> 00:37:31,125
Speaker 2: women are very different and the men are very different.

622
00:37:31,205 --> 00:37:33,844
Speaker 2: Like the only two really sensible people are the two

623
00:37:33,885 --> 00:37:36,325
Speaker 2: people who actually talk to each other and trust each

624
00:37:36,325 --> 00:37:37,924
Speaker 2: other and confide in each other.

625
00:37:38,125 --> 00:37:38,845
Speaker 1: Right, It's true.

626
00:37:38,925 --> 00:37:45,085
Speaker 2: And what's great about that conversation is that it does

627
00:37:45,205 --> 00:37:48,125
Speaker 2: bring us up to speed, right, it does fill in

628
00:37:48,405 --> 00:37:51,045
Speaker 2: whatever little bit of exposition, you know, it gives us

629
00:37:51,045 --> 00:37:55,485
Speaker 2: some details that we need, Okay, but it really establishes

630
00:37:55,765 --> 00:37:57,965
Speaker 2: the stakes right from the beginning.

631
00:37:58,005 --> 00:37:59,125
Speaker 1: You know, we understand it.

632
00:37:59,325 --> 00:38:02,965
Speaker 2: I mentioned that we know from some early shots that

633
00:38:03,005 --> 00:38:06,165
Speaker 2: they are lost. We're thrown into the crisis. We're not

634
00:38:06,205 --> 00:38:09,685
Speaker 2: starting when the journey's good. The journey is already terrible.

635
00:38:09,925 --> 00:38:13,685
Speaker 2: That's when we're putting this. But now they're to that point, Josh,

636
00:38:13,765 --> 00:38:16,005
Speaker 2: this is how bad it is. They're not only lost,

637
00:38:16,245 --> 00:38:21,325
Speaker 2: they're considering fifteen minutes into the movie, hanging their guide.

638
00:38:21,405 --> 00:38:23,844
Speaker 2: That's that's what we're thrown into. They're talking about whether

639
00:38:23,885 --> 00:38:28,085
Speaker 2: or not they should hang him, and so that's that's

640
00:38:28,285 --> 00:38:31,485
Speaker 2: what the screenwriter here, Jonathan Raymond, and what Reichert are

641
00:38:31,605 --> 00:38:33,605
Speaker 2: up to it. I just think it's it's pretty brilliant.

642
00:38:33,805 --> 00:38:37,844
Speaker 2: So it establishes those stakes and how dire the circumstances are.

643
00:38:38,005 --> 00:38:40,965
Speaker 2: But it is also all about character because of the

644
00:38:40,965 --> 00:38:42,765
Speaker 2: way they talk to each other, the way they can

645
00:38:42,765 --> 00:38:46,685
Speaker 2: fight in each other. We understand what their relationship is like,

646
00:38:46,725 --> 00:38:49,125
Speaker 2: what their marriage is like, how they're going to interact

647
00:38:49,125 --> 00:38:52,245
Speaker 2: with each other. It's character building. We understand it that

648
00:38:52,365 --> 00:38:55,925
Speaker 2: dynamic for the rest of the film, and not only that,

649
00:38:56,525 --> 00:38:59,925
Speaker 2: we understand something about what the other men are like.

650
00:39:00,045 --> 00:39:04,285
Speaker 2: He has some lines where he says things like, gaily,

651
00:39:04,645 --> 00:39:06,525
Speaker 2: you know, he's he's eager to hang a man as

652
00:39:06,565 --> 00:39:08,845
Speaker 2: long as that man isn't isn't next to him, you know,

653
00:39:09,005 --> 00:39:11,285
Speaker 2: or a line like that, you know, which which tells

654
00:39:11,365 --> 00:39:12,964
Speaker 2: us that he's the kind of guy who will talk

655
00:39:13,085 --> 00:39:15,885
Speaker 2: big until of course you know that guy's near him.

656
00:39:15,965 --> 00:39:18,925
Speaker 2: We understand guys like that. We've all met guys like that,

657
00:39:19,045 --> 00:39:22,165
Speaker 2: but we also get an eye in to Emily's mind,

658
00:39:22,565 --> 00:39:24,965
Speaker 2: who up to this point we've only seen her at

659
00:39:24,965 --> 00:39:27,925
Speaker 2: the back, and we're looking at her a lot, and

660
00:39:27,965 --> 00:39:29,925
Speaker 2: we see what she's looking at, but we don't always

661
00:39:29,925 --> 00:39:31,805
Speaker 2: know what she's thinking, and this is our chance to

662
00:39:31,845 --> 00:39:35,605
Speaker 2: finally understand what she's thinking. So that conversation just just

663
00:39:35,645 --> 00:39:39,605
Speaker 2: functions on so many levels. And I mentioned the patriarchy earlier,

664
00:39:40,005 --> 00:39:43,165
Speaker 2: and obviously there's a lot of subversion of that here,

665
00:39:43,525 --> 00:39:49,045
Speaker 2: But some of the little touches that Reiker and Raymond

666
00:39:49,485 --> 00:39:51,845
Speaker 2: sneak in here, Josh that I love that I certainly

667
00:39:51,845 --> 00:39:54,845
Speaker 2: didn't catch the first time I saw it. There is

668
00:39:54,885 --> 00:39:58,445
Speaker 2: a conversation early on where Dano and his wife in

669
00:39:58,485 --> 00:40:01,525
Speaker 2: this film was played by Zoe Kazan. There's a conversation

670
00:40:01,605 --> 00:40:04,125
Speaker 2: fairly early on where they're sitting around a campfire and

671
00:40:04,245 --> 00:40:07,685
Speaker 2: Nick is telling his tales and he's talking about the

672
00:40:07,805 --> 00:40:11,205
Speaker 2: journey at this point, and Dano's asking questions and then

673
00:40:12,125 --> 00:40:16,364
Speaker 2: Kazan's character asks a question, and if you watch it,

674
00:40:16,525 --> 00:40:21,245
Speaker 2: when she asked the question, you can see Dano turn

675
00:40:21,325 --> 00:40:23,805
Speaker 2: his head and look at her, and the look he

676
00:40:23,845 --> 00:40:27,685
Speaker 2: gives her is like, what do you think you're doing, like,

677
00:40:27,805 --> 00:40:31,205
Speaker 2: why are you I'm the one who's talking here. This

678
00:40:31,365 --> 00:40:35,285
Speaker 2: isn't your place woman to talk right now, and and

679
00:40:35,605 --> 00:40:38,405
Speaker 2: it's it's it's very clear in that moment and later

680
00:40:38,965 --> 00:40:42,685
Speaker 2: later when we see that Emily, who's pretty embold in

681
00:40:42,765 --> 00:40:45,805
Speaker 2: the entire film, but when she's really emboldened later and

682
00:40:45,845 --> 00:40:49,925
Speaker 2: she's she's letting she's letting Mek know how how she

683
00:40:50,045 --> 00:40:54,205
Speaker 2: feels about him. She going back to the Bible. She

684
00:40:54,405 --> 00:40:57,965
Speaker 2: uses one of the seven sins against him. She uses

685
00:40:58,005 --> 00:41:01,245
Speaker 2: the word vanity. She suggests that he is, that he

686
00:41:01,325 --> 00:41:03,444
Speaker 2: is too vain right, and when he's.

687
00:41:03,845 --> 00:41:07,125
Speaker 1: Three women and he comes up and yes, such.

688
00:41:07,045 --> 00:41:11,205
Speaker 2: Exactly, well, we learn that I don't I can't remember

689
00:41:11,245 --> 00:41:13,245
Speaker 2: if we see it earlier or not, or just see

690
00:41:13,285 --> 00:41:16,805
Speaker 2: it at the end. But Dano's there and Dano's listening,

691
00:41:17,085 --> 00:41:20,765
Speaker 2: and and Ryker cuts to him right after she says

692
00:41:20,765 --> 00:41:23,525
Speaker 2: that to him, that it's vanity, and so this is

693
00:41:23,525 --> 00:41:26,404
Speaker 2: a pretty heavy charge right at this time, and that

694
00:41:26,485 --> 00:41:31,605
Speaker 2: she's saying it to him to a man. It cuts

695
00:41:31,605 --> 00:41:33,925
Speaker 2: to Dano, and the look on Dano's face isn't the

696
00:41:33,925 --> 00:41:36,125
Speaker 2: same look as before when it was his wife, but

697
00:41:36,205 --> 00:41:38,885
Speaker 2: it is a look of disbelief. It's not anger, but

698
00:41:38,925 --> 00:41:42,245
Speaker 2: it's like, I can't believe that woman is saying that

699
00:41:42,645 --> 00:41:46,285
Speaker 2: to him. Right, And so the other point you made

700
00:41:46,285 --> 00:41:50,325
Speaker 2: I like about how not feeling it being progressive, I

701
00:41:50,325 --> 00:41:54,205
Speaker 2: suppose without feeling anachronistic and not going too far in

702
00:41:54,245 --> 00:41:57,365
Speaker 2: that realm, there is a moment where we get I suppose,

703
00:41:57,485 --> 00:42:00,085
Speaker 2: you know, a semi standoff like you would expect in

704
00:42:00,125 --> 00:42:03,484
Speaker 2: a western, maybe even a Sergio Leoni western, right where

705
00:42:03,645 --> 00:42:05,884
Speaker 2: two guns are out and there's a triangle and people

706
00:42:05,925 --> 00:42:09,445
Speaker 2: are pointing at each other. And and I could be wrong,

707
00:42:09,565 --> 00:42:11,445
Speaker 2: but Josh, what I loved about this moment in the

708
00:42:11,485 --> 00:42:14,565
Speaker 2: way Williams plays it. What I noticed anyway on my

709
00:42:14,685 --> 00:42:18,685
Speaker 2: screen is that Williams is in control. She's got the rifle,

710
00:42:19,125 --> 00:42:21,765
Speaker 2: you know, and it's a tense moment. You don't exactly

711
00:42:21,805 --> 00:42:23,405
Speaker 2: know how it's going to play out. And of course

712
00:42:23,445 --> 00:42:28,485
Speaker 2: she is being very tough and and dominating that scene,

713
00:42:28,485 --> 00:42:30,885
Speaker 2: and she she wins. I suppose you could say, but

714
00:42:30,965 --> 00:42:34,444
Speaker 2: when she puts that gun down, she's trembling. Oh yeah,

715
00:42:34,525 --> 00:42:38,005
Speaker 2: she's trembling, so as she should be right, because she's human.

716
00:42:38,205 --> 00:42:41,685
Speaker 2: It's not it's not about asserting, you know, or over

717
00:42:41,765 --> 00:42:44,365
Speaker 2: asserting the dominant woman. It's it's about it's about the

718
00:42:44,445 --> 00:42:46,885
Speaker 2: humanity and the realism of that moment.

719
00:42:47,685 --> 00:42:51,005
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love will Patton as her husband Solomon, and

720
00:42:51,045 --> 00:42:53,685
Speaker 1: I wish I could remember the exact words. But when

721
00:42:53,725 --> 00:42:57,965
Speaker 1: they the standoff goes down and someone says it might

722
00:42:57,965 --> 00:43:00,605
Speaker 1: have been Meek says some about you guys, some woman there,

723
00:43:00,845 --> 00:43:01,285
Speaker 1: and then.

724
00:43:01,285 --> 00:43:05,725
Speaker 2: She's someone, she's some kind of something or something like that.

725
00:43:05,885 --> 00:43:08,325
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's just it's kind of this wonderful. What I

726
00:43:08,365 --> 00:43:11,325
Speaker 1: love about my reading of that is like he doesn't

727
00:43:11,325 --> 00:43:14,005
Speaker 1: feel the need to back her up or undercut her.

728
00:43:14,685 --> 00:43:18,205
Speaker 1: She's who she is, right, It's exactly He's like, this

729
00:43:18,365 --> 00:43:20,725
Speaker 1: is I'm not in charge. I'm not going to tell

730
00:43:20,725 --> 00:43:22,685
Speaker 1: her what to do or what. He's not challenged. His

731
00:43:22,805 --> 00:43:26,445
Speaker 1: masculinity isn't challenged exactly. So Yeah, I just I just

732
00:43:26,525 --> 00:43:29,685
Speaker 1: love this, love them as a couple. I do want

733
00:43:29,685 --> 00:43:31,245
Speaker 1: to just you know, because I don't think his name

734
00:43:31,285 --> 00:43:35,525
Speaker 1: has come up, but cinematographer Christopher Blovelt. Yeah, I mean

735
00:43:36,125 --> 00:43:39,884
Speaker 1: who Reikert has worked with ever since, I believe ever since.

736
00:43:40,645 --> 00:43:45,005
Speaker 1: And I learned something aside. She and Blovelt were on

737
00:43:45,045 --> 00:43:48,045
Speaker 1: the Team Deacons podcast, a couple months ago, and she

738
00:43:48,205 --> 00:43:52,005
Speaker 1: talked about him coming onto this project and kind of

739
00:43:52,005 --> 00:43:55,085
Speaker 1: to her mind, almost saving it, because up to that

740
00:43:55,125 --> 00:43:59,525
Speaker 1: point in her career she had had difficulty establishing authority

741
00:43:59,525 --> 00:44:01,285
Speaker 1: on film sets. I think is kind of how she

742
00:44:01,405 --> 00:44:04,565
Speaker 1: described it. And she put this along gender roles and

743
00:44:04,765 --> 00:44:09,725
Speaker 1: said that there was something about Blowvelt, who the presence

744
00:44:09,805 --> 00:44:13,565
Speaker 1: he brought, this collaborative, respectful presence he brought a cinematographer

745
00:44:13,685 --> 00:44:17,445
Speaker 1: was just a game changer for her, And clearly, you know,

746
00:44:17,925 --> 00:44:21,844
Speaker 1: has has been something that she's want to continue through

747
00:44:21,845 --> 00:44:24,525
Speaker 1: the rest of her career. So there's that bit of background,

748
00:44:24,565 --> 00:44:26,924
Speaker 1: which I just think is interesting. But also I look

749
00:44:26,925 --> 00:44:29,525
Speaker 1: at the text the photographic eye he brings. I mean,

750
00:44:32,245 --> 00:44:37,285
Speaker 1: there are some shots here of the covered wagons where

751
00:44:37,565 --> 00:44:41,005
Speaker 1: at sunset where it's almost like they're glowing from the inside,

752
00:44:41,725 --> 00:44:44,884
Speaker 1: and I was thinking of I was thinking a lot

753
00:44:44,925 --> 00:44:48,725
Speaker 1: of like Andrew Wyath paintings, which have these stark hills

754
00:44:48,765 --> 00:44:52,605
Speaker 1: and fields but also have like something of a glow

755
00:44:53,125 --> 00:44:55,005
Speaker 1: to them. I don't know if that was an influence

756
00:44:55,045 --> 00:44:59,605
Speaker 1: at all. The Academy aspect ratio they've chosen to use here,

757
00:44:59,685 --> 00:45:02,685
Speaker 1: I think is very effective in terms of connecting it

758
00:45:02,725 --> 00:45:06,445
Speaker 1: to the mythology of some of those silent Westerns and

759
00:45:06,485 --> 00:45:10,045
Speaker 1: travelogs I was talking about, is like putting this movie

760
00:45:10,845 --> 00:45:14,725
Speaker 1: not just old timey because it's a period movie, but

761
00:45:14,925 --> 00:45:19,805
Speaker 1: really putting it within cinematic tradition of these sorts of stories.

762
00:45:19,845 --> 00:45:22,485
Speaker 1: I think there's a there's a visual choice for the

763
00:45:22,525 --> 00:45:26,205
Speaker 1: Academy aspect ratio, but there's also a thematic choice, almost

764
00:45:26,205 --> 00:45:29,165
Speaker 1: a meta reasoning behind it as well that I think

765
00:45:29,245 --> 00:45:29,965
Speaker 1: is very effective.

766
00:45:30,485 --> 00:45:33,404
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've talked to her. I'm pretty sure about

767
00:45:33,445 --> 00:45:36,404
Speaker 2: this choice before her and blow Belt, and I think

768
00:45:36,405 --> 00:45:38,325
Speaker 2: it's all the things you just mentioned, and it's also

769
00:45:38,485 --> 00:45:43,525
Speaker 2: just fundamentally about not turning these movies which are already

770
00:45:43,565 --> 00:45:49,405
Speaker 2: set in these wonderful Pacific Northwest locations, and the locations

771
00:45:49,445 --> 00:45:53,005
Speaker 2: themselves are beautiful enough you don't need to guild the lily,

772
00:45:53,565 --> 00:45:55,844
Speaker 2: and beyond that, you don't need to make them. They're

773
00:45:55,885 --> 00:45:59,525
Speaker 2: not about the magnificence of the West. For all the

774
00:45:59,565 --> 00:46:02,645
Speaker 2: reasons we've talked about, it's not about the magnificence of

775
00:46:02,725 --> 00:46:07,885
Speaker 2: Manifest Destincy Manifest Destiny. It's about the people. It's about

776
00:46:08,205 --> 00:46:11,125
Speaker 2: the faces. It's about us trying to figure out what's

777
00:46:11,165 --> 00:46:14,444
Speaker 2: going on in the head of Michelle Williams's character while

778
00:46:14,485 --> 00:46:17,765
Speaker 2: she's at the back looking at the men up ahead

779
00:46:17,805 --> 00:46:19,805
Speaker 2: and trying to figure out what they're saying and where

780
00:46:19,805 --> 00:46:22,485
Speaker 2: they're going to lead them next. And that Academy ratio,

781
00:46:22,525 --> 00:46:24,925
Speaker 2: which they've used on other films too, it's not it's

782
00:46:24,925 --> 00:46:27,765
Speaker 2: not about the widescreen expanse of the landscape. It's about

783
00:46:27,845 --> 00:46:31,805
Speaker 2: keeping that face in the frame first and foremost, right,

784
00:46:31,805 --> 00:46:34,725
Speaker 2: that's what we're paying attention to. It's about character more

785
00:46:34,725 --> 00:46:37,125
Speaker 2: than it is about landscape. And and yeah, those two

786
00:46:37,165 --> 00:46:40,445
Speaker 2: as a tandem have obviously given us some some incredible

787
00:46:40,485 --> 00:46:46,605
Speaker 2: work and in terms of shots that that do allow

788
00:46:46,725 --> 00:46:51,045
Speaker 2: them to to, I suppose get a little bit more creative.

789
00:46:51,125 --> 00:46:53,845
Speaker 2: That's that's not the right term to use, but there.

790
00:46:53,885 --> 00:46:57,485
Speaker 2: Their approach is one that doesn't draw a lot of

791
00:46:57,525 --> 00:47:02,005
Speaker 2: attention to itself. It's it's it's exactly what it needs

792
00:47:02,045 --> 00:47:04,805
Speaker 2: to be for this film. And the shots that that

793
00:47:04,925 --> 00:47:06,725
Speaker 2: actually speak to me more than anything are some of

794
00:47:06,725 --> 00:47:09,605
Speaker 2: the ones you mentioned. They're they're how the wagon looks,

795
00:47:09,645 --> 00:47:12,965
Speaker 2: it's the that conversation at night, and and how we

796
00:47:13,085 --> 00:47:14,765
Speaker 2: just see the little bit of the flicker of light,

797
00:47:14,925 --> 00:47:17,165
Speaker 2: you know, from a from a lantern or whatever that

798
00:47:17,165 --> 00:47:20,245
Speaker 2: that has them in that glow. Some of those shots,

799
00:47:20,325 --> 00:47:23,005
Speaker 2: it's about those, not the landscapes, the wide shots of

800
00:47:23,005 --> 00:47:25,965
Speaker 2: the landscape, as I mentioned that the stand out about

801
00:47:26,005 --> 00:47:29,605
Speaker 2: this movie. But at the end, at the end, that

802
00:47:30,085 --> 00:47:33,085
Speaker 2: point of view shot through that little hole in the

803
00:47:33,125 --> 00:47:37,285
Speaker 2: branches in the tree right look at looking at at

804
00:47:37,325 --> 00:47:42,565
Speaker 2: the Indians. He walks away, just bringing here again sort

805
00:47:42,605 --> 00:47:46,165
Speaker 2: of full circle. This this notion of point of view

806
00:47:46,605 --> 00:47:51,205
Speaker 2: and her looking through the tree looking at him, and

807
00:47:51,245 --> 00:47:54,125
Speaker 2: that connection that they're making, and this idea I think

808
00:47:54,165 --> 00:47:57,925
Speaker 2: as I read it, that that she is willing that

809
00:47:58,085 --> 00:48:00,565
Speaker 2: they are going to follow him, that they are putting

810
00:48:00,605 --> 00:48:04,165
Speaker 2: their faith now in this new guy. And I want

811
00:48:04,165 --> 00:48:06,364
Speaker 2: to see that at the end as if they are

812
00:48:07,005 --> 00:48:12,925
Speaker 2: that even Meek is saying, I recognize that I've been bested,

813
00:48:13,085 --> 00:48:17,165
Speaker 2: that even as the deceiver, I can't deceive any longer.

814
00:48:17,205 --> 00:48:19,085
Speaker 2: And I want to go back to one other point

815
00:48:19,085 --> 00:48:22,165
Speaker 2: about him. How great is it? Like a great like

816
00:48:22,245 --> 00:48:27,725
Speaker 2: a great snake slithering Josh, exactly what that deceiver would do.

817
00:48:28,885 --> 00:48:35,205
Speaker 2: When when Emily and Solomon are in the tent pretty

818
00:48:35,245 --> 00:48:37,525
Speaker 2: late in the film, and it's it's another one of

819
00:48:37,565 --> 00:48:41,125
Speaker 2: those intense moments where she is really letting her feelings

820
00:48:41,165 --> 00:48:45,725
Speaker 2: known about Meek to her husband and questioning him and

821
00:48:45,965 --> 00:48:49,725
Speaker 2: saying some harsh things about him. They then hear a

822
00:48:49,885 --> 00:48:55,245
Speaker 2: rustling outside and Solomon says something like will or you know,

823
00:48:55,365 --> 00:48:57,844
Speaker 2: or says a name to someone. You're thinking it's one

824
00:48:57,845 --> 00:49:01,045
Speaker 2: of the guys, and there's no answer, and it's almost

825
00:49:01,045 --> 00:49:04,125
Speaker 2: certainly him, you know, eavesdropping. And one of the things

826
00:49:04,125 --> 00:49:07,165
Speaker 2: that confirms that is that what happens the next morning

827
00:49:07,685 --> 00:49:10,725
Speaker 2: and even all throughout the next day, all of a sudden,

828
00:49:11,685 --> 00:49:15,125
Speaker 2: Meek is not hanging out by himself, He's not hanging

829
00:49:15,165 --> 00:49:19,445
Speaker 2: out with the other men. He's now positioning himself with

830
00:49:19,485 --> 00:49:22,085
Speaker 2: all the women. This is when he starts talking to

831
00:49:22,125 --> 00:49:24,924
Speaker 2: mistether them. This is when he starts talking to all

832
00:49:25,165 --> 00:49:28,005
Speaker 2: the women and trying to get in good with them.

833
00:49:28,205 --> 00:49:30,925
Speaker 2: Right now, he knows, he knows that they don't like him,

834
00:49:30,965 --> 00:49:32,885
Speaker 2: and he knows that he needs to do something to

835
00:49:32,965 --> 00:49:35,645
Speaker 2: try to to try to seduce them a little bit

836
00:49:35,725 --> 00:49:38,925
Speaker 2: to change their mind about him. You know, it's perfect.

837
00:49:39,445 --> 00:49:42,285
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a you know, it's a performance that

838
00:49:42,605 --> 00:49:45,045
Speaker 1: has to be handled delicately because he could come off

839
00:49:45,045 --> 00:49:49,285
Speaker 1: as cartoonish. But I think if you see that that bravado,

840
00:49:49,485 --> 00:49:54,205
Speaker 1: that performance is part of this man's actual constitution, this

841
00:49:54,325 --> 00:49:58,005
Speaker 1: is how he lives, then it makes perfect sense. Along

842
00:49:58,005 --> 00:49:59,445
Speaker 1: with the rest of the film.

843
00:49:59,725 --> 00:50:03,325
Speaker 2: Meek's Cutoff is currently streaming on Peacock and Movie and

844
00:50:03,405 --> 00:50:06,885
Speaker 2: available vod More about the Film Spotting Pantheon and Our

845
00:50:06,925 --> 00:50:12,165
Speaker 2: Little Pantheon project is available at filmspotting dot nets slash Pantheon.

846
00:50:12,605 --> 00:50:14,405
Speaker 2: I'd have to consult our schedule. I don't have it

847
00:50:14,445 --> 00:50:16,005
Speaker 2: in front of me right at this moment, but within

848
00:50:16,045 --> 00:50:18,805
Speaker 2: the next two to three weeks we will be inducting

849
00:50:19,405 --> 00:50:22,845
Speaker 2: one of these nine films, two of these nine films,

850
00:50:22,845 --> 00:50:26,365
Speaker 2: I should say, into the film Spotting Pantheon. More details

851
00:50:26,685 --> 00:50:29,205
Speaker 2: about all of that coming soon and again available at

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Speaker 2: filmspotting dot net slash Pantheon. Coming on Friday. Show reminder

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00:50:33,765 --> 00:50:36,925
Speaker 2: project Hail Mary and Forty's Madness Round one results and

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00:50:36,965 --> 00:50:37,965
Speaker 2: around two matchups.

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Speaker 1: Film Spotting is independently produced and listeners supported. That means

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00:50:42,205 --> 00:50:44,485
Speaker 1: you can support the show by joining the film Spotting

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00:50:44,525 --> 00:50:48,125
Speaker 1: Family at film spottingfamily dot com. That way, you can

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00:50:48,205 --> 00:50:51,605
Speaker 1: listen early and ad free. You will get monthly bonus

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00:50:51,645 --> 00:50:55,565
Speaker 1: episodes as well a weekly newsletter and access to the

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00:50:55,725 --> 00:51:00,085
Speaker 1: entire show archive. Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe

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00:51:00,165 --> 00:51:03,245
Speaker 1: do So and Sam van Holgren. Without Sam and Goldenjoe,

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00:51:03,245 --> 00:51:06,925
Speaker 1: this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempenar

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00:51:07,525 --> 00:51:10,965
Speaker 1: and special thanks to everyone at wbe Z Chicago. More

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00:51:10,965 --> 00:51:15,165
Speaker 1: information is available at wbez dot org for film Spotting,

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00:51:15,205 --> 00:51:16,485
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Larson.

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00:51:16,325 --> 00:51:19,645
Speaker 2: And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening. This conversation can

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Speaker 2: serve no purpose any more. Good Bye, Absolute, Absolute,