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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

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Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever

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Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to

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Speaker 1: have you here. Back for another episode as we, of

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Speaker 1: course break down the psychology of our twenties. Let's be

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Speaker 1: real for a second. The job market, the job hunt,

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Speaker 1: the economic climate, all of the above have gotten so

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Speaker 1: tough in recent years, and if you're in your twenties,

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Speaker 1: you're probably feeling the pressure and the impact of this

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Speaker 1: more than any other age group. It is so much

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Speaker 1: more difficult than it was for our parents generation even

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Speaker 1: a few decades ago, to find a job that can

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Speaker 1: pay our bills but is also fulfilling, or to even

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Speaker 1: find entry level opportunities in our chrosen industry, much less

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Speaker 1: a stable career path. And I think this experience of

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Speaker 1: struggling with unemployment and continuous job hunting, the pressure to

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Speaker 1: have it all figured out, the pressure to have some fulfilling,

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Speaker 1: rewarding job lined up. Some fulfilling, rewarding career is really

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Speaker 1: feeling increasingly impossible in this day and age. So I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk about it, and I wanted to help

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Speaker 1: you understand the science behind not only why it's so difficult,

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Speaker 1: but why there is so much shame and frustration and

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Speaker 1: at times even anger and resentment when it comes to

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Speaker 1: job hunting in our twenties. I think that this topic

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Speaker 1: definitely doesn't get enough of a spotlight, and I'll admit

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Speaker 1: I've even fallen into I think a bit of complacency myself.

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Speaker 1: I have taken my own circumstances for granted because I

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Speaker 1: was really lucky to kind of fall into something I

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Speaker 1: loved quite early on. I don't think that is the

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Speaker 1: case for everyone. I really think that a more universal

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Speaker 1: experience is one of struggling to find your professional place

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Speaker 1: in the world early on in your career. And just recently,

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Speaker 1: I have had so many friends going through redundancies and

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Speaker 1: periods of unemployment, constant rejections, and it's emotionally challenging. I

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Speaker 1: can see them really struggling with it. So much of

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Speaker 1: our self esteem and our self concept is tied to

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Speaker 1: what we do for work. It is tied to how

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Speaker 1: we make money. It is tied to our sense of purpose.

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Speaker 1: So when that is taken away from us or it's unavailable,

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Speaker 1: no matter how hard we try, no matter how many

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Speaker 1: job applications we put out, we feel firstly quite aimless,

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Speaker 1: but secondly like we have somehow failed in a way

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Speaker 1: that so many others have been successful. We think there

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Speaker 1: must be something wrong with us. We make assumptions about

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Speaker 1: what other people are thinking about us, that we're lazy,

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Speaker 1: that we lack discipline, that we aren't skilled, when there

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Speaker 1: are so many other explanations for unemployment and struggling with

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Speaker 1: job searching, struggling with your career during this decade. So

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Speaker 1: today we are going to talk about the psychological impact

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Speaker 1: of job hunting, unemployment, setbacks, and rejections in our twenties.

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Speaker 1: How we can manage our emotional well being must also

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Speaker 1: staying focused and keeping optimistic about opportunities that come our way.

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Speaker 1: We're also going to talk about concepts like bridging jobs,

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Speaker 1: why there is no shame in doing something that you

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily love for a paycheck, why it's okay to

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Speaker 1: not have a five year plan, the myth of the

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Speaker 1: dream job, and how to find your purpose during a

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Speaker 1: very confusing period of life. I strongly believe that when

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Speaker 1: we talk openly about these situations, we reduce a lot

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Speaker 1: of the invisible shame we're feeling that I think forces

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Speaker 1: us to keep things to ourselves when they would become

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Speaker 1: so much easier and lighter out in the open. Trust me,

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Speaker 1: if you're going through this right now, I really cannot

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Speaker 1: express how many people have reached out to me with

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Speaker 1: similar situations, how many friends of mine are going through this,

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Speaker 1: some of them even in their late twenties, early thirties,

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Speaker 1: and even broader than that. How every single trend is

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Speaker 1: pointing to this being more difficult for this generation, to

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Speaker 1: this being harder. It is not just you, I promise.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to slow it down. We're going to

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Speaker 1: look at the psychology. We're going to talk all about

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Speaker 1: it and hopefully make you feel a little bit better

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Speaker 1: about your situation. So all of that are more after

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Speaker 1: this shortbreak. We talk about it a lot on the show,

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Speaker 1: but there is definitely this unspoken pressure in our twenties

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Speaker 1: to know what we are doing with our lives. There

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Speaker 1: is an emphasis on having a five year plan, on

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Speaker 1: having a dream job, financial independence, job security, that can

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Speaker 1: feel really suffocating if that just hasn't been your path

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Speaker 1: so far, or perhaps you just don't.

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Speaker 2: Want it to be. I think I will continue to

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Speaker 2: repeat this for as long as I can. But this decade,

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Speaker 2: our twenties is a period of flux, and that is

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Speaker 2: both a blessing and a curse. It is this time

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Speaker 2: in our life where there is so much available to us,

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Speaker 2: but all of our timelines, the timelines of yourself and

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Speaker 2: everybody around you, is splintering. For the first like eighteen

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Speaker 2: nineteen years of our lives, we were in school. We

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Speaker 2: are typically doing the same things in the same environment,

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Speaker 2: with the same ultimate goal as everybody around us, which

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Speaker 2: is to graduate before we kind of get stuck into

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Speaker 2: the real world. It is very structured, It is very uniform,

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Speaker 2: very repetitive for each and all of us. When we

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Speaker 2: walk across the stage, when we graduate, suddenly, after eighteen

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Speaker 2: years of always having somebody tell us what is next,

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Speaker 2: what the requirements of moving forward are, we have agency

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Speaker 2: and choice and freedom to choose where we want to go,

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Speaker 2: who we want to be, and the goalposts kind of disappear.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you do end up going to university in the

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Speaker 2: goalpost to kind of reinstated, but only for another three

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Speaker 2: for maybe five years. At some point, school is going

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Speaker 2: to kind of spit you out into the world, and

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Speaker 2: you have to kind of figure out a way of

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Speaker 2: operating in this new environment, one that you know, I

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Speaker 2: do think the education system doesn't really get us prepared for.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not just about grades and assignments anymore.

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Speaker 2: You have to put into practice everything that you've learned,

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Speaker 2: and there will definitely be a learning curve, and it's

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Speaker 2: only natural to be struggling with that. This whole period

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Speaker 2: in the field of psychology is known as emerging adulthood,

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Speaker 2: and the word emerging there is really important because I

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Speaker 2: think it highlights how transitionary this period is. It is

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Speaker 2: not the final chapter. It is the first chapter in

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Speaker 2: a very long life, in a very long career. Hopefully.

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Speaker 2: I think that there is not one thing about our

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Speaker 2: career during this decade that is permanent. Those the jobs

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Speaker 2: that you're applying for, for example, they could not exist

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Speaker 2: in like twenty years. The unpaid internships. Eventually you won't

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Speaker 2: have to do them anymore, the terrible bosses. One day

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Speaker 2: you will quit that job and you will find something

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Speaker 2: more meaningful and purposeful, the job interviews, the confusion. Eventually

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Speaker 2: that will go away. Eventually it will become more clear

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Speaker 2: to you what you want to do, where you want

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Speaker 2: to be, who you want to be. But all of

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Speaker 2: those things that we really struggle with, they are to

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Speaker 2: be expected when we're kind of first starting out. I

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Speaker 2: think the misconception that makes us feel really terrible is

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Speaker 2: that this will be like this forever. Right, we are

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Speaker 2: always going to feel this lost, we are always going

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Speaker 2: to feel this aimless, this purposeless, We're always going to

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Speaker 2: be in this state of striving for an opportunity. But

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Speaker 2: secondly to that that it is an us problem, not

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Speaker 2: a societal one. So when I was researching this episode,

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Speaker 2: I came across two articles that were super enlightening when

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Speaker 2: it came to this exact point, job hunting and a

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Speaker 2: lack of success that many of us are experiencing is

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Speaker 2: a societal problem rather than an individual one. So the

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Speaker 2: first article was published by the BBC last year, and

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Speaker 2: it essentially said, nearly all young workers, so people between

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Speaker 2: eighteen and thirty are struggling to cope with economic uncertainty

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Speaker 2: but also the instability of the job market. And what

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Speaker 2: this article said was that about no ninety one percent

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Speaker 2: of us are experiencing or have experienced at least one

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Speaker 2: instant of stress around our future career and our future

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Speaker 2: job insecurity or security. In the last six months, ninety

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Speaker 2: one percent of us in our twenties essentially are feeling

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Speaker 2: very much unstable and unsure of what is next. A

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Speaker 2: lot of this also came down to three large scale stresses.

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Speaker 2: A fewer entry level jobs that has a proven fact.

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Speaker 2: There are less opportunities for people who are junior or

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Speaker 2: just starting out to get their foot in the door,

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Speaker 2: b increasing competition for a smaller pool of opportunities. It's

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Speaker 2: not just that there are more people who want a

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Speaker 2: smaller amount of jobs, but that those people are more educated,

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Speaker 2: more proficient, have done more internships, have more job experience

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Speaker 2: than ever before. And see there is this rising cost

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Speaker 2: of life living, which means that even if you do

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Speaker 2: get one of those coveted entry level jobs, even if

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Speaker 2: you do, you know, surpass all those dozens hundreds of others,

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Speaker 2: you still might not be able to pay your bills.

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Speaker 2: That is one component of why this is so increasingly stressful.

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Speaker 2: The second article was from Time magazine and it was

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Speaker 2: titled you're not imagining it. Job hunting is getting worse.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to leave a link to this article in

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Speaker 2: the description, because if this describes your experience, you need

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Speaker 2: to read this article. And what they explain is that

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Speaker 2: the tightening kind of labor market. Not to make this

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Speaker 2: like an economic podcast rather than a psychological one, but

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Speaker 2: we'll get to the psychology, I promise. Essentially, the tightening

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Speaker 2: labor market has triggered two changes. Firstly, because a lot

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Speaker 2: of companies are really scared about a recession, they take

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Speaker 2: a lot more time to choose people that they're hiring

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Speaker 2: because they want to make sure that they are choosing

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Speaker 2: the right person. Something that we may not realize is

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Speaker 2: that we obviously know it costs money to employ people,

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Speaker 2: but it actually costs also a significant amount of money

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Speaker 2: to find the people that we want to employ, and

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Speaker 2: so companies like just getting a lot more stingy and

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Speaker 2: a lot more cautious. I have heard stories of people

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Speaker 2: doing like three or four levels of interviews for entry

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Speaker 2: level jobs. My friend Emily, she is applying for jobs

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Speaker 2: in the public service in Australia at the moment. She

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Speaker 2: went through three interviews for an entry level position and

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Speaker 2: she didn't hear anything for two months, and eventually they'd

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Speaker 2: offered her the job, but she was like, it's been

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Speaker 2: two months. I can't wait for that long. So they're

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Speaker 2: kind of like back to the drawing board. Companies are

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Speaker 2: just taking longer. They're making you jump through more extravagant

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Speaker 2: and extreme hoops. The second element of this is that

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Speaker 2: because the job market is becoming more limited, more experienced

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Speaker 2: and educated people are now applying for the kind of

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Speaker 2: jobs that used to be reserved for individuals like fresh

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Speaker 2: out of UNI. You know, there has been mass redundancies

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Speaker 2: across tech, across so many other industries. That has meant

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Speaker 2: that people with master's degrees and multiple bachelor's degrees who

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Speaker 2: have five to ten years of experience, they're getting replaced

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Speaker 2: by AI. They're getting let go of and they have

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Speaker 2: to start again, along with people like you and I,

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Speaker 2: people in their twenties who are starting out for the

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Speaker 2: first time. I know that this has taken a very

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Speaker 2: pessimistic turn. I am sorry this is not being like

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Speaker 2: empowering pump up speech that I wanted for this episode.

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Speaker 2: But all of this is just to say, I promise

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Speaker 2: it's not just you. It is systematic it is just

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Speaker 2: as hard for so many other people out there. I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping that that is a comforting statement to hear, right

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Speaker 2: that you might be putting a lot of pressure on yourself.

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Speaker 2: You might be feeling terrible that it's you, that you

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Speaker 2: don't have what it takes, that you're being lazy, that

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Speaker 2: no one likes you, that it's a personal thing, when

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Speaker 2: actually across the board people are struggling with this. It's

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Speaker 2: a really hard time to be new to the job

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Speaker 2: market and unemployed. So there are some really tangible, real

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Speaker 2: and true psychological and emotional consequences that come with being

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Speaker 2: stuck in this limbo jobless period, you know, perhaps taking

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Speaker 2: on bridging rolls to make money, not fully satisfied or

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Speaker 2: sure when one of these countless interviews or resumes is

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Speaker 2: going to hit the desk of the right person. It's

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Speaker 2: a waiting game. And I'm sure you know this already,

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Speaker 2: But there are a lot of ways that this bleeds

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Speaker 2: into our well being, into our state, our mental state essentially,

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Speaker 2: and I want to talk about four of the main

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Speaker 2: ways that we can see this in our lives and

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Speaker 2: how to address it before it gets out of hand. Firstly,

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Speaker 2: job hunting, it is a lot of effort, from building

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Speaker 2: your resume to finding jobs whose criteria and requirements you match,

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Speaker 2: to cover letters, to interviews, to references, sometimes most of

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Speaker 2: the time doing this for multiple opportunities at a time

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Speaker 2: with little payout that is bound to get exhausting. There

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Speaker 2: comes a point where we hit a wall, and it's

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Speaker 2: actually called the law of diminishing return. Essentially, what it

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Speaker 2: means that at some point, no matter how much we

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Speaker 2: put into an activity, say a job hunt, the output

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Speaker 2: getting a job doesn't change. At a certain level. There

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Speaker 2: is only so much effort we can put in before

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Speaker 2: we become disheartened, before we can't give any more, and

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Speaker 2: we're not getting the outcome that we want. And this

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Speaker 2: can lead to two distinct feelings, resentment and pessimism. Resentment

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Speaker 2: firstly because we feel like the system is unfair. We

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Speaker 2: feel like we just deserves some reward for what we're

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Speaker 2: putting in, how much we want it, how much harder

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Speaker 2: we're working than other people who are getting these opportunities

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Speaker 2: seemingly easily. Like I know, it's not a good feeling,

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Speaker 2: and it's a very shameful feeling, but it is a

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Speaker 2: feeling that we do experience seeing other people get the

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Speaker 2: opportunities that we wanted and feeling kind of upset about it.

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Speaker 2: When things just keep going the same way, when we

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Speaker 2: are not hearing back, when we're not getting the response

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Speaker 2: that we want, we develop a mental attitude or an

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Speaker 2: expectation that it's going to continue much the same. Getting

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Speaker 2: into that mental rut, it can be really hard to

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Speaker 2: climb out of because your efforts and your hard work

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Speaker 2: that is required to keep going are not being reinforced.

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Speaker 2: And as humans, we do really thrive off of reinforcement.

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Speaker 2: There does come a point where our expectations are going

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Speaker 2: to be dashed, our hopes are going to be in

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Speaker 2: the dumb star, and it's just going to feel like

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Speaker 2: there is absolutely no.

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Speaker 1: Hope for us.

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Speaker 2: I get it. I totally get it, and I want

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Speaker 2: to say that sometimes though it is just a numbers game,

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Speaker 2: it is just about responding to the adverts, responding to

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Speaker 2: you know, the calls, and forgetting about it. I had

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Speaker 2: a friend who says, post and ghost. I think that's

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Speaker 2: a great way to put it. She's an actor, and

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Speaker 2: I know it's a little bit different, but the other

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Speaker 2: day I was asking her about this advert that she

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Speaker 2: went for. I was like, Hey, how did that? Like

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Speaker 2: phone advert girl? And she was like what are you

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Speaker 2: talking about? And I was like, you know you when

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Speaker 2: you know you want an audition? She was like, Nah,

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Speaker 2: you don't think You're not meant to think about it.

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Speaker 2: Don't think about it unless you get a positive response,

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Speaker 2: because it keeps your expectations low so that you don't

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Speaker 2: keep spiking your expectations when you think that this one's

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Speaker 2: going to work out. You think that this one's going

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Speaker 2: to be the one, and then it's not, and you

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Speaker 2: fall back into that failure mindset. You continue to be

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Speaker 2: feel like you are being negatively punished for your efforts.

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Speaker 2: You feel like there is no hope. The second reason

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Speaker 2: job hunting is so hard comes down to the constant rejection.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you are lucky enough to get the first job

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Speaker 2: you apply for, but that is the exception, not the rule.

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Speaker 2: Most of us will receive about six to ten rejections

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Speaker 2: before we get a job offer. According to Forbes, rejection

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Speaker 2: is such a heavy emotion, It is such a primal

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Speaker 2: state because we are hardwired to avoid it at all costs.

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Speaker 2: Rejection on a very basic level signifies a lack of

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Speaker 2: approval from those whose opinion we value, and when that

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Speaker 2: is repeated, we begin to internalize a number of secondary

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Speaker 2: assumptions about ourselves. That we are not good enough, that

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Speaker 2: we are not as intelligent as we thought, we're not capable,

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Speaker 2: that we are failures, and that hurts our ego. Our

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Speaker 2: ego is related to our confidence. When our confidence is low,

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Speaker 2: that can really interfere with what jobs we apply for,

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Speaker 2: how secure we come across in interviews, because we begin

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Speaker 2: to believe that these rejections are in some ways defining us,

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Speaker 2: that somehow these other people must know that we're getting desperate,

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Speaker 2: they must know that all these other companies rejected us,

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Speaker 2: and that kind of begins to overwhelm what we do

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Speaker 2: actually bring to the table, our wonderful qualities, our wonderful assets.

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Speaker 2: I think it's even worse when you just don't get

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Speaker 2: any feedback at all, You don't receive anything. Honestly, the

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Speaker 2: places that just ghost you are awful, especially when you

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Speaker 2: are young, and especially like when they just don't have

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Speaker 2: the empathy to remember what it was like to be

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Speaker 2: in your position when you could really benefit from the feedback,

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Speaker 2: You could benefit from having some closure and not still

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Speaker 2: thinking about that job in two months not still thinking

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Speaker 2: you had a chance. Two things to counteract the rejection treadmill,

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Speaker 2: that it sometimes feels like we'ron firstly after each disappointment,

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Speaker 2: do something kind for yourself. So there is this brilliant

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Speaker 2: article published by Psychology Today that I'll also link in

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Speaker 2: the description. And this doctor, her name is doctor Genie Schneider.

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Speaker 2: She said something so perfect about this. Looking for a

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Speaker 2: job can feel like a punishing experience. We look at

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Speaker 2: the prize that is getting the job as the only

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Speaker 2: reward for all the work. Instead, you need to provide

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Speaker 2: ample rewards for all your job hunting efforts. Apply for

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Speaker 2: the job. Then give yourself a break to have fun.

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Speaker 2: Go through like your fourth interview, take a friend to dinner,

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Speaker 2: go and like go for a walk, get out of

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Speaker 2: your head, tell yourself you will you know, reward yourself

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Speaker 2: with like a small after preparing for a lengthy interview,

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Speaker 2: after finishing that ruling, cover letter or case study. I

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Speaker 2: think rewarding yourself for the effort, not the outcome, helps

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Speaker 2: you maintain that motivation and that momentum that you really need.

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Speaker 2: It's also valuable to remember that it's not always about you.

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Speaker 2: Of course, we are at the center of our own universe.

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Speaker 2: That's how it is. We are the only person who

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Speaker 2: we truly can understand, and even then we don't really

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Speaker 2: understand ourselves fully. But it's our reality that we are

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Speaker 2: most aware of, and so we tend to think every

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Speaker 2: failure or rejection must relate back to something that was

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Speaker 2: wrong with us, something that we were lacking, that we

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Speaker 2: did incorrectly. Instead, I want you to consider this concept

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Speaker 2: or this kind of like idea I came across called

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Speaker 2: the mustard effect. So the mustard effect came from the

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Speaker 2: story of a really talent an actor who went to

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Speaker 2: meet with the director for a new movie. He was

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Speaker 2: perfect for the role. He was like the leading man

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Speaker 2: of the day, super attractive, talented, perfect like resume. But

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Speaker 2: right as he got to the restaurant, the director he

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Speaker 2: was meeting spilled mustard on his favorite shirt and he

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Speaker 2: was so frustrated. He was so distracted that he passed

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Speaker 2: on the actor. He didn't offer him the movie. You

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Speaker 2: can be the most amazing candidate, and sometimes the recruiter

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Speaker 2: is just in a bad mood. There is just someone

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Speaker 2: had a bit more experienced than you and something really

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Speaker 2: niche that they need somebody spills mustard, so try not

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Speaker 2: to take it too personally. Sometimes it's not even like

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Speaker 2: the disappointment and the exhaustion of the constant efforts and

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Speaker 2: the letdowns. It's the simple fact that not having a

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Speaker 2: job means we can't do certain things that truly bring

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Speaker 2: us joy and that fill our cup because we simply

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Speaker 2: don't have the money for them. When you are watching

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Speaker 2: all of your friends buy new clothes, go out for dinner,

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Speaker 2: book vacations, that can't be a very nice feeling, as

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Speaker 2: much as we try and suppress it, And me is

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Speaker 2: an especially loud emotion, So I don't blame you. It's

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Speaker 2: hard to see everybody else living perhaps a life of

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Speaker 2: ease while you're still struggling. You know, this day and age,

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Speaker 2: it is the age of social comparison. Of course we

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Speaker 2: are going to compare paychecks. Of course we are going

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Speaker 2: to compare career progression, job titles or lack thereof, because

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Speaker 2: all of those things serve as proxies for what we

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Speaker 2: see as progress. Our jobs also bring a sense of

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Speaker 2: purpose in productivity, like we can say we're doing something

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Speaker 2: that our degrees were worth something. Those internships, those extracurriculars,

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Speaker 2: those you know, stupid jobs that we didn't want to do.

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Speaker 2: It was all worth it because we have something to

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Speaker 2: do with our day. When we don't have that, there

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Speaker 2: is definitely a level of shame and stigma. I think

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Speaker 2: we implicitly feel we're adults. This is what we should

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Speaker 2: be doing, this is what we were always taught we

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Speaker 2: should be doing. We should have a job. That's how

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Speaker 2: we stay useful in society, especially in a society where

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Speaker 2: it's our output that really counts. So I read this

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Speaker 2: story about how in Japan, businessmen will actually get dressed

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Speaker 2: up in the morning in their suits, in their ties.

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Speaker 2: They'll take the train to the city, they'll leave their apartments,

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Speaker 2: and they'll just sit in the park all day until

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Speaker 2: they return home because they don't have jobs. And it's

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Speaker 2: not that they're being productive with that time. It's that

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Speaker 2: the shame of not having a job, the shame of

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Speaker 2: being unemployed, causes them to want to keep up the

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Speaker 2: facade for those around them. And I think that's not

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Speaker 2: too dissimilar to what you may be experiencing a sense

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Speaker 2: that you are lazy or that you're going to be judged. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: you may not be going as far as to put

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Speaker 2: on a business suit and go and sit in the

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Speaker 2: park all day. But there is perhaps a tendency to

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Speaker 2: conceal things, a tendency to perhaps I don't know, not

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Speaker 2: want to reveal to your friends or your family that

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Speaker 2: you are struggling, how hard it has been, how many

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Speaker 2: rejections you have gotten, how lost you feel. I also

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Speaker 2: heard this from a lot of friends of mine who

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Speaker 2: are currently on the job hunt, looking for a cool

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Speaker 2: thing to do, that there is this tension, this kind

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Speaker 2: of pool between wanting to simply get a job, not

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Speaker 2: wanting to get left behind, wanting to make some money,

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Speaker 2: but also wanting to be happy in what you're doing

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Speaker 2: and not just settle for the first job that comes

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Speaker 2: your way. It feels like a really significant choice, and

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Speaker 2: that is the confusion that also comes along with this.

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Speaker 2: We spend ages trying to find a job, only to

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Speaker 2: have doubts about what might be right for us. I

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Speaker 2: think job hunting is hard enough, but when you add

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Speaker 2: purpose and mission and ambition into the picture, it gets

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Speaker 2: even more complicated. So we're going to take a short break,

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Speaker 2: but when we come back, we're going to kind of

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Speaker 2: discuss how we can discover purpose whilst also looking for

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Speaker 2: that paycheck, and also how you can lessen the pressure

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Speaker 2: or the mental load of job hunting and the shame

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Speaker 2: when it isn't going your way. All of that and

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Speaker 2: more after this short break. One of my favorite like

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Speaker 2: tumbler Instagram, that kind of genre of posts that I've

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Speaker 2: ever seen, which was quite popular back in the day

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Speaker 2: but still feels very noteworthy, is this post that recounts

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Speaker 2: when famous actors and public figures first got their big break. Oprah,

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Speaker 2: for example, got fired from her first reporting job at

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Speaker 2: twenty three. Harrison Ford, he was a carpenter at thirty.

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Speaker 2: Morgan Freeman, he wasn't in like a major movie until

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Speaker 2: he was fifty two. I'm sure that a lot of

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Speaker 2: us have seen this post, but I think that every

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Speaker 2: time I see it, it is such a simple reminder

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Speaker 2: that the stakes feel really high right now. They feel

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Speaker 2: really significant in our twenties to get it right. But

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Speaker 2: there are so many paths to your dream destination and

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Speaker 2: so many parts of the journey that you just cannot

434
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 2: foresee in the moment that you are in right now.

435
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: I think uncertainty is part of the twenty something package.

436
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: It's part of the deal. Not knowing what comes next,

437
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: feeling like you have these big dreams and not knowing

438
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: what to do with them, feeling like there are other

439
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 2: dreams you have to put on hold out of necessity.

440
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 2: That is all kind of part of what this decade promises.

441
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: So firstly, I want you to take the press sure

442
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: off a little bit. You don't need to be searching

443
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: for or working your dream job right now to be happy.

444
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 2: In fact, I personally don't think that the dream job

445
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: even exists. There is so much hype around this idea

446
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: that if you love what you do, you never work

447
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: a day in your life. I think that neglects the

448
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 2: role of practicality just needing something to give you a paycheck,

449
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 2: having those intermission periods where you are in transition, like

450
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 2: after graduation, or when you're making a career jump, or

451
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: after getting fired, It is okay to be working casual

452
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: jobs in the meantime. It is okay to not necessarily

453
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: know what comes next. I think this idea of the

454
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: dream job makes a lot of us feel like if

455
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 2: we're not totally sold and in love with what we

456
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: are doing as a career, we are bound to be miserable.

457
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: But it doesn't consider that life is more than work,

458
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 2: and that sometimes you don't really know what you want

459
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 2: to do until much later in life when you have

460
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: had experience. And maybe that is what this time is

461
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: right now. It is about experience. It is about applying

462
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 2: for jobs you never saw yourself doing and maybe doing

463
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: them for a couple of months, doing them for a year,

464
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 2: and just seeing where it takes you. A perspective that

465
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: I kind of love. As an alternative to the dream

466
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: job concept is this Japanese idea of ikigai, so that

467
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: kind of roughly translates to reason for being. I was

468
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: introduced to this concept through a book that was written

469
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: about it a couple of years ago by these two authors.

470
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: And in the process of writing this book, they went

471
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: to this small town in the Okinawa district in Japan,

472
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: and it's what is known as a blue zone, So

473
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: there are a bunch of blue zones around the world.

474
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: These are essentially locations where the population in those areas

475
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 2: are some of the happiest and some of the healthiest

476
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: and who live the longest. And what they found was

477
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: that amongst all these kind of like elderly Japanese people,

478
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: all of them had a sense of ika guy. They

479
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: had a sense of being. Instead of looking for one

480
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: thing that is going to light your fire, instead of

481
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: looking for a job that just pays you a lot

482
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: of money, or trying exorbitantly hard to just find the

483
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: one thing that you absolutely love doing and nothing else

484
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: at all, focus on asking yourself for specific questions. What

485
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: do you actually like doing, what do you actually enjoy,

486
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: what are you good at doing, What do you receive

487
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: praise for, What do people tell you that you have

488
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: a special knack for. What does the world actually need?

489
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: And what can you get paid for? So, if we

490
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: have like the example of being a psychologist, that might

491
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: be your dream job right now, It's probably going to

492
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 2: take like quite a few years of study to get there,

493
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: probably a lot of probably a lot of setbacks in

494
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: the interim. You still need to make money. You still

495
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: want to be doing something, So think about how you

496
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: can fulfill your ecer guy in other ways. I'm guessing

497
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: if you want to be a psychologist, you're probably really

498
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: good at talking to people. You enjoy talking to people.

499
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: They connect with you, they open up, it feels fulfilling.

500
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: I think the world needs more people who can hold

501
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: empathy and space for others. But right now, you can't

502
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: get paid for it in the specific way that you

503
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: would like. But if you were a grocery store clerk

504
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: or a disability support worker, if you worked in customer service,

505
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: you can still utilize your unique abilities and gain those

506
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: vital skills, even if it's not your dream destination. You know, personally,

507
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: before I did this full time, you know, a lot

508
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: of people might assume this is my dream job. I

509
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: didn't even know this existed three years ago, and before I,

510
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: you know, stumbled into podcasting. I've spoken about how I

511
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: worked in consulting, and especially I did health consulting and

512
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: big mental health programs for the government was something that

513
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: I really focused on. It was not my dream job,

514
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: but besides that, there was so many things that I

515
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: took from it that have made my current career so

516
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: much more fruitful. Obviously I spoke a lot about mental

517
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 2: health during that time, but it also made me really

518
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 2: proficient in academic research. It made me really proficient in

519
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: time management, in science communication, in writing applications for grants

520
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: and things like that, and I'm so grateful for that. Now,

521
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: I think I firmly believe that our twenties are not

522
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: our time to be perfect, especially when it comes to

523
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: our careers and our professional lives, it's a time for experimentation.

524
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: It's a time for discovery. Your purpose might not be

525
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: entirely clear to you right now, but that is what

526
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: this period is for. It's getting to see what's out there,

527
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: doing jobs that might not be high on your list

528
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: of things that you thought you would like doing, applying

529
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: for those random positions that you've never considered, and just

530
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: seeing what happens. I know that it's very easy to

531
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: compare to people who seemingly have it all, who are

532
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 2: already looking like they're uber successful, but that is again

533
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: the exception, not the rule. Another component of the job

534
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: hunt of an unemployment in our twenties is taking on

535
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: roles where you are just going to have to swallow

536
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: the toad. You are going to have to start from

537
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: the bottom and maybe do things that you don't necessarily

538
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 2: want to do, but it can lead you to something bigger.

539
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: When you look at those people you might see online

540
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: who you think, oh my god, they have it all together.

541
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: What did they do differently? What do they do that

542
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: I didn't do, you have to remember that they might

543
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: just be a few steps ahead of you, or they

544
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: may have had networks, they may have had shortcuts, or

545
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: they may have done these tedious, unfulfilling job that you're

546
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: doing now that are actually really valuable because they give

547
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: you that work ethic that doesn't disappear the older you get,

548
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: and they give you those connections, they give you that experience.

549
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: You just have to start somewhere, even if it's not

550
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: where you imagined yourself starting. Some final tips for managing

551
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: both the stress and the practicality of job hunting in

552
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: our twenties. Firstly, find someone else who is going through

553
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: the same thing and meet up with them to job hunt,

554
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: to write cover letters, to write applications together. Treat the

555
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: job hunt like a job, like there is structure, like

556
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: there are things and KPIs and tasks that you need

557
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: to tick off. So you don't feel like this is

558
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: a waste of time, so you don't feel like this

559
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: is just an endless cycle of not knowing of effort

560
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: and setbacks. But alongside that, when you do it with

561
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: somebody else, you have that support, kind of have somebody

562
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 2: almost like a colleague or a coworker, a coworker and

563
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: your job hunt to complain to and to kind of

564
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: just have a whine too about how rough it is,

565
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: and to know that they experiencing they are experiencing the

566
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: same thing. It also just obviously helps combat loneliness of

567
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 2: unemployment as well, which is a big thing. Secondly, don't

568
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: be afraid to tell people that you are looking for work.

569
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: Not only does this train us out of the feeling

570
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: of shame, which is important. There is no shame in

571
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: just getting started and trying to find what's right for you.

572
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: But I think when we are vulnerable about something that

573
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: we don't like to speak about, people feel a natural

574
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: inclination to help, and there is a natural like eliciting

575
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: of empathy. They will, I think, connect you with new people.

576
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: They will connect you with places that are hiring, with

577
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: friends that they know in the endie with opportunities that

578
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: they've heard of. People want to be in your corner.

579
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 2: Those empathy centers in our brain start lighting up when

580
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: we see somebody else who is not only struggling, but

581
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: as being open and sensitive about that struggle. Finally, I

582
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 2: want you to know that it will happen, even if

583
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: it is taking time, even if you're going slower than

584
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: you imagined, even if you are not where you thought

585
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 2: you'd be. No one wakes up a success. So many

586
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: success stories start with shitty jobs, start with being broke,

587
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: start with not having the perfect job, or any job

588
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: at all. There are so many steps in between where

589
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: you are now and where you want to be in

590
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: the future. And I don't know, as someone who went

591
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: through periods of unemployment and who've worked terrible jobs and

592
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: who got rejected from so many jobs and so many internships,

593
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: there will come a point where you do get to

594
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: look back and be like, you get to tell the

595
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 2: story in hindsight, and it feels kind of magical that

596
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: you got to where you are, and you do feel

597
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: in some ways grateful for the lessons that you learn

598
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: and the fact that you didn't just come to you easily,

599
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: that you actually had to try and work hard and

600
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 2: test yourself. Every small piece, every small thing that you

601
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: are doing, every small action, is contributing to the process.

602
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 2: It's contributing to you getting a job, finding your career path,

603
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: figuring out what you want to do. But right now

604
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be perfect. You are doing enough,

605
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: You are doing the best you can, and I'm just

606
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 2: sending a lot of love. I'm sending a lot of

607
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: encouragement and support your way, because I know it is

608
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 2: tough when everyone around you seems to have it together,

609
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: when you're broke, when you don't have the money for

610
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 2: the opportunities that you would like to be pursuing, when

611
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: it feels like you waste it all your time and

612
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 2: uni in college and nobody wants you. It's temporary. Something

613
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: will come your way, I am sure of it. So

614
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: I really hope that this episode has been of some

615
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: solace to you, or has at least provided you with

616
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: some new information, something else to consider, some tips, some tricks,

617
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 2: some comfort. As always, if there is somebody that you

618
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: know in your life who is also job hunting, firstly,

619
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: maybe hit them up and start applying for some jobs together.

620
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: It's a great idea. Otherwise, share this episode with them.

621
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: Maybe they'll get something out of it as well. Make

622
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 2: sure that you are following along. I post so many

623
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: different episodes, so many different concepts, ideas, so many different

624
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: aspects of our twenties, and I'm always looking for episode suggestions,

625
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 2: So feel free to dm me at that psychology podcast

626
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: with your thoughts, your feelings, your questions, your qualms, whatever

627
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: it is. I would love to hear from you and

628
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: as always, until we see you next week, Stay safe,

629
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: stay kind, be gentle with yourself, and we will talk

630
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: very soon. One