1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: one two. You know it's an equal opportunity destroyer. It 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: impacts everyone, poor, middle class, wealthy, black, white suburbs, world cities, 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: you name it. How does a teen boy, a teen boy, 5 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: never been in trouble, leaves home on a usual Friday morning, 6 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: just like your child, just like your children, just like you, 7 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: and then suddenly he's staring into the face of death 8 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: by overdose. I just had to let that sink in 9 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: for a moment, because you know, this morning, like every morning, 10 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: I'll wake the children up. I sing, oh, what a 11 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: beautiful morning. As I wake them up, I bring him 12 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: a warm drink in bed, We get ready and we 13 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: go to school, get there early. I'm just trying to 14 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: imagine if that afternoon I find out one of them 15 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: are looking at death by overdose. That is exactly what 16 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 1: happened to my guest, Rick Van Warner. I Nancy Grace, 17 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 18 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: joining me. Rick Van Warner, author of a brand knee 19 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: book on pills and Needles, The Relentless Fight to save 20 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: my son from opioid addiction. Rick Van Warner with me 21 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: Dr will Um Maroney, opioid addiction expert, author of American 22 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: Narcan and l A psychiatrist, Dr Carol Lieberman, Alan Duke, 23 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: and Jackie Howard. First, I want to go to Rick 24 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: Van Warner. Rick, thank you so much for being with 25 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: us at a time when the rest of the world 26 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: is looking at America and claiming we have an opioid 27 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 1: crisis that we cannot control. That's all well and good 28 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: for a headline, but it's more than a headline for you. 29 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning, Rick, what happened? You know it? 30 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: Really we had no idea that our teenage son had 31 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: had fallen into this, this addiction until one day, on 32 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: a Friday, he did not return home from school. And 33 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: we initially felt that that while the US was unusual 34 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: there is there are times that sixteen year old have 35 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: a certain amount of angst and rebellion. But as the 36 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: night fell that that particular evening, the dread started sinking 37 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: in and we started searching around and calling around and 38 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: looking to friends, houses, etcetera. And what the information we 39 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: got turned our our fear into terror, really, because we 40 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: heard that he had had hooked up with a friend 41 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: of his and that they were they were using some 42 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: serious drugs, which was an absolute shock to us at 43 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: the time, and that led to a several days search. 44 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm looking at your chapter one and as you were talking, 45 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: Rick van Warner, Jack, you look at my arm. The 46 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: hair on my arm is standing up. I'm covered in chills. 47 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: The way you describe he knows a typical Friday, and 48 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: your son doesn't come home like he normally does, and 49 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: then the hours passed us. Your first chapter is called 50 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: the Vanishing the first sentence as darkness fell On the 51 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: day after Tommy disappeared, his mother became increasingly anxious when 52 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: her call to his phone went straight to voicemail. I've 53 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: got a bad feeling, she says. I'm just Oh, that's 54 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: just breaking my heart, she said, I've got a bad feeling. 55 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: So when he doesn't come home from school, at first 56 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: you think, uh, he went to a friend's house, he 57 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: did this, he's that. But then it gets to the evening, 58 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: it's dark outside. What's the first thing you do, And 59 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: did you have a feeling, Rick, that something bad was 60 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: going on. We got some information from one of his 61 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: friends that he could be in serious trouble and this 62 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: could be a very dangerous thing, and at that point 63 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: I enlisted the help of a friend. And our daughter 64 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: was very young, so so my wife needed to take 65 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: her home, and my friend and I went to search building. 66 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: Were an abandoned building in Orlando where we had been 67 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: tipped off that they may be UM. It was a 68 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: very imposing, large, vacant building, full of graffiti and broken glass. 69 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: In fact, it was so daunting that we called the police, 70 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: and the police refused to search the building because they 71 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: felt it was too dangerous and anybody could be hiding 72 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: in there, et cetera. It was a multi story building. UM, 73 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: So we went into ourselves and I almost felt a 74 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: feeling of of evil and dread in this. It was 75 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: just a very very dark and and dangerous place where 76 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: anybody could be hiding with me. Rick Van Warner, the 77 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: author of On Pills and Needles, The Relentless Fight to 78 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: Save My Son, you said you just had this feeling 79 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: of evil when you went into that building to Dr 80 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: William Moroney, who was not only the best selling author 81 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: of American Narcan but also a renowned medical examiner and physician. 82 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: Dr Moroney, you and I have both investigated a lot 83 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,679 Speaker 1: of criminal cases you in your way, me and mine. 84 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: And I've got to tell you there have been times 85 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: when I would get out of my car at a 86 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: scene and I would just start walking in, no no problem. 87 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, armed with nothing but my badge. 88 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: I would feel a sense of not dread, but a 89 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: sense of evil, of something wrong, of something horribly wrong. 90 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: And it's not like I had my mindset on that feeling. 91 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: I'd be thinking about, Oh, I've got to get back 92 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: to the courthouse. I've got to do this and that 93 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: and that and this, and all of a sudden, it's pervasive. 94 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: It's like I'm a dark blind kit on you, Dr Moroney. 95 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: For the last fifteen years, there's been a slow and 96 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: insidious disregard for safety and common sense in medicine. People 97 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: have begun to share medicine. Doctors became careless, pharmaceutical companies 98 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: became aggressive, and drug lords became street savvy. And it 99 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: brought us to a heroine crisis in America, where we 100 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: used to think it was just the homeless and the 101 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: criminal element, and now it's our sons and daughters, it 102 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: is every family in America. I have had people tell 103 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: me that everybody in counseling knows somebody that died of 104 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: an overdose this week or this month, And it used 105 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: to be once or twice a year. He said, Oh, 106 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: I remember the guy at high school. He died. It's 107 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: but it's it's everywhere, and the estimates are underestimates. People 108 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: are dying in places we cannot measure. We need to 109 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: understand how big the heroin problem is, how deep it reaches. 110 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: And every state is different, but some states are just 111 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: caught way off guard. To Dr Carol Lieberman l a psychiatrist, 112 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: this sense of dread the sense of something horribly horribly sinister. 113 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: You know, when people tell me they have a hunch 114 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: or a gut feeling, very often that will be pooh pooed. 115 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: But you know Rick and one of his chapters is 116 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: called Hunches and Heartaches. That's chapter three in his book 117 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: Up on Peels and Needles. Dr Carol Lieberman, I always 118 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: say a hunch is nothing to sneer at. A hunch 119 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: is something created over thousands of years of our evolution 120 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: of instinct of something You may have sane, but you 121 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: don't realize consciously you've seen it, or heard it, or 122 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: smelt it or felt it. You get that feeling of dread. 123 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: You you feel it, just like when Rick Van Warner 124 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: was telling me about his child not coming home from 125 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: school and ours start passing. It's it's a feeling you 126 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: know something is wrong. And he says, when he walked 127 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: into this building, Carol, just this pervasive sense of something 128 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: sinister surrounded him. Yes, people really need to pay attention 129 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: to their gut feelings, their instincts. You know. Too often 130 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: we just kind of pushed that aside and say, well, 131 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: that's not logical, or we try to talk to ourselves 132 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: and tell us all the reasons why you know, it'll 133 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: be okay. And but yes, the other thing is with 134 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: a parent or a family member or even good friends. Um, 135 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: when you know someone so well, really, your unconscious mind 136 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: is what's telling you, uh, you know, all the reasons 137 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: why something really bad might happen. You know, in Rick's case, 138 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: why his son might be doing something bad, or it 139 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: might be a bad outcome. All of the reasons actually 140 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: are what's creating that hunch. To Rick Van Morner, author 141 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: of On Pills and Needles, Rick, while you were walking 142 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: into that building, what did you observe? Well, I observed 143 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: broken glasses all over the floor. It was strewn with 144 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: trash and and a lot of graffiti. Some of the 145 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: graffiti was was was pretty horrific in nature, just darkness. 146 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: Really there wasn't any you know, there's no light or 147 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: anything to see. Um but my hunch kept me coming 148 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: back to that building. As the days passed and and 149 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: I had been to bus station, the bus station, the 150 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: train station passed out flyers of my son. We had 151 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: reported him missing in the missing in person's database. And 152 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: as the days went by, um, I just found myself 153 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: continually being drawn to this building. And every time I 154 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: got near it, day or night, I would I would 155 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: feel that same sense of of almost sinister feeling. And 156 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: it was a gut instinct that he was there. And 157 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: I searched the building with friends because again the police 158 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: would never go in the building. Felt it was especially 159 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: the upper floors were too too unsafe and you know, 160 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: elevator's chefs were empty. It was, you know, a building 161 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: that was enabled building on a naval base at one time. 162 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: And on the fourth day, UM my son had joined 163 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: the search by now his older brother, and we found 164 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: him and he was in that building. He wasn't there 165 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: the whole time. And we would have found him on 166 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: the searches. He had been in and out of that building, 167 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: as it turned out. But we found him curled up 168 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: in a in a corner and heavily into you know, 169 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: opioid use and done, and then we were able to 170 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 1: get him into a hospital from there. I want to 171 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: understand what you're what you're telling me, Rick van Warner 172 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: with me, who fought relentlessly to save his son from 173 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: opioid addiction. I'm talking about heroin, but it's much bigger 174 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: than heroin. It's oxyconton, it's oxycodone, it's parcoset, it's fentonyl patches. 175 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: It just goes on and on and on and it. 176 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: Opioids start over the counter OTC, and that's what he 177 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: started with as well. Really started on OxyContin. Really yeah, 178 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: he started on Well, we were he was unfortunately coming 179 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: of age at the epicenter of the pill mill epidemic 180 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: in Florida and the just extraordinary flood of oxy starting 181 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: with oxyconton and Produe Pharma, but the flood of all 182 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: these drugs that they were so easily available in the 183 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: high schools that one officer told me they was easy 184 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: to get as candy at the seven eleven and so 185 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: his initial his initial foray into opioids, UM started with 186 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: prescription pills, which, although marketed deceptively as non addictive, all 187 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: you had to do was crush them to eliminate the 188 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: time release mechanism, in which case they were easily snorted 189 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: or injected or smoked, and it was the full dost immediately. 190 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: And that's what started his addiction, was prescription pain pills, 191 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: which were easily available at five bucks a piece in 192 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: the high schools. How did he get his first pill, Well, 193 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: he got it in high school. He he got it 194 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: from a friend and he thought that they would try 195 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: this that they'd heard about. That this was because prescription 196 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: pills are essentially synthetic caroline, and it's just one's made 197 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,719 Speaker 1: in a pharmaceutical lab and once made in a street lab. Um. 198 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: But they essentially had those pills and had planned out 199 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: a Friday night to experience what that was about. And 200 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: then he and then he just started using more and 201 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: more from there, and you know, over over the course 202 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: of the following eight years, which is this this journey 203 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: we've been on, and thirteen relapses, detoxes twice he's been 204 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: revived from death by overdose. And really it's a story 205 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: about how how a family can cannot give up hope 206 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: and and it's a story of survival. The book as 207 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: well as as well as and insights into this epidemic. 208 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: You know, I'm just keep going back to you in 209 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: that building and that feeling of nefarious, uh sinister evil 210 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: as you walk in, the police don't even go in. 211 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: And even after you look around and you don't find 212 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: your son, and I can just imagine this, you keep 213 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: going back to the building. Something is pulling you back 214 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: to the building, and then you ultimately discover that your 215 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: son ends up in that building and you find him 216 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: curled up in a corner. 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Enter promo 236 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: code Nancy in the referral box at check out legal 237 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: Zoom where life meets legal legal zoom dot Com with me. 238 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: Rick Van Warner, who fought uh a seemingly endless battle, 239 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: a relentless fight to save his son from opioid addiction. 240 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: The author of a new book on pills and needles 241 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: his family put through hell how to try and save 242 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: his teen boy. Dr William Moroney, now world renowned expert 243 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: in opioid addiction, author of American Narcan, The Locks Own 244 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: heroin Fitnell Associated Mortality, and Dr Carol Lieberman, very well known, 245 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: high profile l A psychiatrist. Dr Carrol, I want to 246 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: talk to you in just a moment about when one 247 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: person in your family, particularly your child, is suffering a 248 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: drug addiction. After what you're hearing from Rick Van Warner, 249 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: how it puts the whole You go to the devil, 250 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: you go to hell and back the whole family is 251 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: along for the ride. Dr William Morroney first to you. Opioids. 252 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: When we say that, what are we talking about, we 253 00:17:53,800 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: use the word opioid to say it's like and opiate, 254 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: and opiate is from opium. Opium. Poppies allow you to 255 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: natural chemicals codeine and morphine. Those are naturally occurring chemicals 256 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: in the opium plant. When you chemically change it and 257 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: synthesize it, it becomes an opioid. Hydrocodone, oxycodone, methodone. All 258 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: those chemicals that are taken and copied from the original 259 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: natural plant our opioids. Technically, the only two opiates that 260 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: are available are codeine and morphine, and they come naturally 261 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: from the poppy plant, and we've had them in medicine 262 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,479 Speaker 1: for five thousand years. Okay, hold on, when I when 263 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: I think of opiate I think of heroin, and I 264 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: also think, and I've told you this before, don't laugh 265 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: at me. I think of the Wizard of Oz when 266 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: Dorothy is running through the big fields of poppies, and 267 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: you know with the tin man, the lion and the 268 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: scarecrow in Toto, and they're trying to get to um 269 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: the Wizard. Okay, Emerald City, all right, then they get 270 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: sleepy because they're in poppies. I E opiate, I E heroin, 271 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: and they fall asleep. And then, for some reason I 272 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: can't remember, the dog is the dog never goes to 273 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: sleep or that starts snowing, and they wake up and 274 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: they're saved. Dr Maroney heroin or opioid now comes, give 275 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: me the names of medication that is considered to be 276 00:19:53,280 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: opiate related. Oxy Codon, OxyContin, well purchase at Norco, Viking 277 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: in o'panna. All these I have brand names and generic names. 278 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: They come from pharmaceutical companies that have copied morphine and scientifically. 279 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: Heroin used to be available prior to nine fourteen and 280 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: the Harrison Narcotic Act. It was sold because it was 281 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: used to try to get people off of morphine when 282 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: they realized people were addicted to morphine a hundred years ago. 283 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: This isn't the first time that's happened in America. This 284 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: happened in America a hundred years ago, and a chemist 285 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: made heroin so we could get people off of morphine. Addition, 286 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: without realizing that heroin was three to ten times more 287 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: addicting than morphine, so then it became illegal. Dr Carol 288 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: labor Man an l a psychiatrist Rick Van Warner's describing 289 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: the years eight years he battled to save his son, 290 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: thirteen relapses in and out of programs. They have other children, 291 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 1: so father, why the son? The rest of the family, 292 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: The whole family goes on the trip. It's not just 293 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: the one child that you're trying to save. Everybody is 294 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: put through so much torture. Dr Carroll, Yes, it's actually 295 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: it throws the whole family into chaos. Um. First of all, 296 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's a degree of helplessness, UH, confusion, what 297 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: do I do? Fear of losing this child? Um anger. 298 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: It's a helplessness and anger at the child for throwing 299 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: the family into chaos. The siblings feel on the one hand, 300 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: they don't want anything to happen to him either, but 301 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: they are angry that the parents are paying so much 302 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: attention to that sibling and not paying as much attention 303 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: to their going through the rehabs that would have cost 304 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: a lot of money that wasn't being spent on them. Um, 305 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: feeling guilty for their sibling rival. All kinds of feelings 306 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: are stirred up when one member of the family has 307 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,479 Speaker 1: an addiction. Now the key is too for the family 308 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: to be willing to look at themselves, uh, to see 309 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: what they may have contributed to why this other family 310 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: member has become addicted. And and Rick's book, Um, I 311 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: see how he is willing to look at himself, look 312 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: at his own father, who was an abusive alcoholic, and 313 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: see how that affected him, which then he realized affected 314 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: his son. So the openness to acknowledging what kinds of 315 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: things that you may have done to contribute to the 316 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: addiction is part of what a family needs to do 317 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: to help the addict to recover. But to Ring Van Warner, 318 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: author on Pills and Needles, right, you signed your son 319 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: curled up in a ball, yes, in a corner of 320 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: this empty warehouse. What happens then, Well, we were able 321 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: to my son actually found him and brought him out UM, 322 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: and we then his mother. By then his mother and 323 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: his sister were there and his brother, one of his brothers, 324 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: and UM also the policeman had to be on hand 325 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: to release him from the missing persons because he was 326 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: now found and we all just embraced and he was 327 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: in the days, but there were tears and everybody was very, 328 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: very relieved. And when we took him directly to a 329 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: a psychiatric ward of a hospital that also did detoxes 330 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: at the time, and he was there for a few 331 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: days and then and then straight into his first residential 332 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: recovery because he was still a minor and were able 333 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: to insist that that happened. UM. I think that the 334 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: biggest the biggest thing is to understand that the the 335 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: root closet is it's a very convenient label to call 336 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: addiction of disease, but in a lot of cases, it's 337 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: a complex stew of brain chemistry. It's it's socialization and 338 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: life experiences as was just mentioned, it's someone's mental health. 339 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: Do they have underlying anxiety or depression or anything of 340 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: that nature. And there is a genetic predisposition factor as well, 341 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: But it's not one thing. It's a complex stew of 342 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: things and that person ultimately that especially with opioids, which 343 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: is a a drug of not getting high, but a 344 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: drug of escape from pain, if you will, and escape 345 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: from feelings of isolation and worthlessness. And and that's really 346 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: the underlying cause of what we're our son's problems. But 347 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: hold on, I want to ask you, you know, I 348 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: look at attain them like they've got the whole world 349 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: in front of them. They're young, they're healthy, they're happy. 350 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: Feeling bad about what? What is there to feel bad about? You? Yeah? 351 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: I gave them a beautiful home, a loving family. How 352 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: could what feelings lead him to trying that first peel 353 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: and then becoming an addict. Well, I I look back 354 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: on it, and I talked a lot about this in 355 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: the book. But he never could find his group. And 356 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: I think that even starting in middle school, that's critical 357 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: that that that kids find their group. Whether it's science 358 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: club or a sport or music, whatever it is. People 359 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: need to feel that they belong. And it's a harsher 360 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: world than ever. Social media adds to those feelings of 361 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: isolation when you're not in a group or don't have 362 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: a ton of friends. And this was my one son 363 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: who tried a lot of things, but could never wasn't 364 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: very good at sports, wasn't you know it wasn't. He 365 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: was talented artists, but never could find a core group. 366 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: So then the group becomes the misfits, if you will. 367 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: It's a little bit like the Island of Misfit Toys. 368 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: It's the people who feel disenfranchised and disengaged because they 369 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: don't have a group by the time they're fifteen or sixteen, 370 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: they find each other in a lot of times that 371 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: leads into some of these destructive behaviors. But he never 372 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: felt he was he out of our four children, the kindest, 373 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: most gentle, never heard a fly, nicest kid still is 374 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: and and and thank the Lord he's he's alive. And 375 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: but when we shifted to family, love and acceptance is 376 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: really in the end what m what saved him to date. 377 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: And of course it's a one day at a time proposition. Well, 378 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: when you say it's a one day at a time thing. 379 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: Rick Van Warner, author of On Pills and Needles, his 380 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: relentless fight to save his son from drug addiction, a 381 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: brand new book out right now and it really overwhelmed me. 382 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: Rick Van Warner when I read it, Your battle to 383 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: save your son. I'm thinking about that moment when you 384 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: first see her son after he has been missing and 385 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: you couldn't find him, and you keep going back to 386 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: this empty warehouse strein with glass and needles and graffiti. 387 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: When you first saw him, What did you think? What 388 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: did you feel? How could this happen? Just a profound 389 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: sense of sadness and relief that we found him, but 390 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: just tremendous hurt and sadness and grief to say, how 391 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: could my sweet son be in the state, How could 392 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: this possibly what could possibly be going on that he 393 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: feels about himself that he was indifferent to whether he 394 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: lived or died. I was looking at your chapter six 395 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: out of sight, out of mind and starts. Sitting in 396 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: a circle of folding chairs in the center of the room. 397 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: We listened a stranger after stranger recounted familiar tales of pain, anger, 398 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: and despair from California to Maine, blue collar te owns 399 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: to wealthy suburbs. The stories the same drug abusing children, 400 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: nearly destroying families and marriages. What does that mean to you, 401 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: Rick Van Morner, Your son's addiction nearly destroying families and marriages? Well, 402 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: it was it was was mentioned earlier at chaos. The 403 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: entire family um was in chaos. During this period, Tommy 404 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 1: sucked all the air and energy out of the family, 405 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: whether he was with us or whether he was in 406 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: a period of homelessness or a period where we we 407 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: had to turn him out in in you know, to 408 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: protect the family. You mean there were times that you 409 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: put your son out of the house. Yes, there were 410 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: times when when his behave well, the stealing, the planning 411 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: of his siblings and our you know, belongings. There were 412 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: times when if he was an active you it just 413 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: was untenable to have him there. And there were times, 414 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: most times it was him leaving or running off and disappearing. 415 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: And again when I talk about the you know the 416 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: name of that chapter that you mentioned, it's really about 417 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: the kicking the can down the road. And it took 418 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: us several years and probably two d thousand dollars worth 419 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: of mostly debt related to various rehabs, residential and outpatient, 420 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: to try to realize that none of this is really 421 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: having much of a difference in him. He would you know, 422 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: it's a vicious cycle of sobriety for a period and 423 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: then and then relapse detox recovery, and then right back 424 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: to it. So after a while we understood that it's 425 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: a disease of isolation, it's a it's a it's a 426 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: problem of of self esteem, and what are we doing 427 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: if we're just shipping him off to another rehab We're 428 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: just exasperating the feelings of isolation, rejection, and some of 429 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: the underlying causes of of him turning back to drugs 430 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: in the first place. So we started detoxing him at 431 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: home several years into this and started really just embracing 432 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: him with unconditional love and acceptance of his family, and 433 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: that's when things started to turn for him. And that's 434 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: much more powerful than the isolation of just what I 435 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: call kicking the can down the road and sending to 436 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: a recovery center. Recovery programs work for some, they don't 437 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: work for everyone. It's a it's a it's a gray world, 438 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: not a black and white world. And and it's especially 439 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: with opioid addicts, it's um success rates of traditional twelve 440 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: step recovery are pretty pretty low. And just thinking about 441 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: what all you and your family went through and the pain, 442 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: I just can't imagine the pain of having to put 443 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: my son or daughter out of the house. I just 444 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: it's it's almost unthinkable to me. Dr William Moroney, you're 445 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: hearing what Rick went through trying to save his son. 446 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: Why is it you got to rehab you get clean? 447 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: Is it a physical addiction you have to go back 448 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: to heroin or opioid. There's two steps to the answer. 449 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: The first answer is the social discharge out of a 450 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: rehab has to go into an environment that continues the care. 451 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: And what he did was he created that environment in 452 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: his house. We look at that as aftercare. Whatever you 453 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: do in rehab, it's completely meaningless unless you can have 454 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: the follow up. And that follow up has to the 455 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: the investment of the family, of the friends, significant others, parents, spouses. 456 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: And the second thing is the Surgeon General last year 457 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: said addiction is a chronic relapse sing brain disease. Somebody 458 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: may have chosen the first time to take a drug, 459 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: snort it, put in their mouth, or inject it. But 460 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: once that drug is in the brain and things change, 461 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: they don't know the sense of time, They don't have 462 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: a sense of value. All they know is now and 463 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: I need something because if I don't get it, I'm 464 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: gonna get sick, and it's a deathly sick that scares people. 465 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: People their guts hurt, they're in panic, they can't breathe, 466 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: they break out with a cold sweat, they have goose flesh, 467 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: and there's nothing you can do to stop that by 468 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: going to a primary care doctor or an urgent care. 469 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: You have to go to the specialist that understands what's happening. 470 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: And on the street you just go back to Heroin. 471 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: If you go to a specialist, they'll talk about symptoms 472 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: and maybe sub institution therapy and helping with counseling. But 473 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: he brought up an interesting point is that the traditional 474 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: twelve step abstinence space has a success rate of five 475 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: to ten percent at the end of a year. So 476 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: you really need specialized counseling and medicine that stabilizes the brain. 477 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: But if you're really worried about death, you need to 478 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: have rescue medicine because it's a chronic relapsing brain disease 479 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: and they keep relapsing. Well, just in a nutshell. What 480 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: is that life setting medicine. The only medicine in the world, 481 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: not in the United States, in the world is no 482 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: lock zone. It's an opioid like the opioids of abuse, 483 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: but it's a blocker and its brand name is Narcan, 484 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: and it's available in hundreds and thousands of pharmacies across America. 485 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,719 Speaker 1: Parents have to look for this themselves to rig Van Warner, 486 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: author of On Pills and Needles, Right, When you look 487 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: back over those eight years in and out of rehabs, 488 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: what was the worst moment during that time, Well, there's 489 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 1: there were many, so it's hard to pinpoint one. But 490 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: I do believe um finding out from my brother during 491 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: a period where my son was living in New Jersey 492 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: and that was his first foray into actual street heroine 493 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: that he had overdosed and been revived through CPR, that 494 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: was That was just earth shattering, switching gears. I need 495 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: all the energy I can get. Every day that passes, 496 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 1: I seem to have less energy and get more fatigued 497 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: more easily. But I recently learned this could be due 498 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: to a decrease in circulation. And if you give your 499 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: body what it needs, it promotes natural, healthy circulation and 500 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: keeps you feeling great. And that is why I and 501 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: my family drink super beats. Super Beats promotes your body's 502 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: own natural ability to produce healthy circulation. It gives you 503 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: increased energy and stamina all day long. Only super beats 504 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: made from beats grown to exacting standards then concentrated down 505 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: into super food crystals. I mix it with cold water 506 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: and ice and sip it all day. If you want 507 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: to give your body what it needs, call eight hundred 508 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: five one six zero six eight three, or go to 509 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: Nancy's Beats dot com in a n C Y S 510 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: B E E T S dot com with a first order, 511 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: get another thirty day supply of super beats free plus 512 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: indicator strips. To see how super beats working for you 513 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: and free shipping, call eight hundred five one six zero 514 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: six eight three eight hundred five one six zero six 515 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: eight three, or go online to Nancy's Beats dot com 516 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: Today super beats. We would always go to bed in dread, 517 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: wondering when the call was going to come in the 518 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: middle of the night, that he was, that he was 519 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: gone or in jail. I'm thinking back on what you 520 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: just said. Rick Van Morner, author of Pills and Needles, 521 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: The relentless Fight to save My Son from opioid addiction, 522 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: that the worst moment was when your brother calls and says, 523 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: your son has odd on street hereman. Yes, um, you know, 524 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: his mother would would lie in bed and plan his 525 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: funeral in her mind. She later confessed somehow he survived 526 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: through all this process, and we were able to to 527 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,479 Speaker 1: help him survive through through his family and really that's 528 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: the only thing that kept him afloat. So it goes 529 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: from as a teen boy to one pill, one oxy 530 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: code on roxy cotton peele one pill, to you searching 531 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: the city, searching abandoned buildings, warehouses, streets, alleys, trying to 532 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: find your son, to the moment you find out he 533 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: is actually overdosed. Through one rehab after the next, after 534 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: the next, after the next, relapse after relapse thirteen in all, 535 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking about what you said that every 536 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: night you go to bed afraid, dreading that you're going 537 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: to get that call that he is dead. You know, Rick, 538 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: my fiance was murdered shortly before our wedding. That was many, 539 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: many years ago. Do you know to this day, to 540 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: this day, when I wake up at night, I go 541 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: check every single person in the house to make sure 542 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,879 Speaker 1: they're still Breathingstand isn't that like crazy? All these years later? 543 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: Because I'm convinced. I mean, I don't think it too rationally. 544 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: I just know it can happen, and in my world 545 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: it will happen. That feeling you and your wife had 546 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: when you would try to go to bed at night, 547 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: describe that, Well, it's very difficult to be on the 548 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: same page in the midst of such a crisis. Uh, 549 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: It's very hard to tend to the needs of your 550 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: your other children, and I think the needs of your 551 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: spouse end up being about laughting inline in the middle 552 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: of this. So I think that that that feeling of 553 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: just just horror, of pain and and just just despair. 554 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: It was absolute despair, and it can happen to anyone. 555 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: It's no family safe from this epidemic. It is. It 556 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: is out there, it is everywhere. I think that it's 557 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: one of the biggest problems we have right now is 558 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: there's so much stigma still around, and a lot of 559 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: it to the word heroin itself, which has been stigmatized 560 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: for you know, decades. Now, I think that we need 561 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: to drag this out of the shadows and create more 562 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 1: awareness and education around this. And that's really why I 563 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: wrote the book to help other families and try to 564 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: do that. To let other people know that you're not 565 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: walking down this road alone. There are there are many others. 566 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: Most of them, however, are keeping it to themselves because 567 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: of the stigma and not seeking out support of other 568 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: families and other people. Here. Chapter eleven of your book 569 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: on Pills and Needles with Me, Rick Van Warner is 570 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: titled the Abduction, and it describes you at the beginning, 571 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 1: racing through the airport with your son Paul, racing, racing, 572 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 1: right getting on a plane planning an abduction, and your 573 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: son says, so what's planned? Ad. Once you're finally sitting 574 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: on the plane and you say, I have no idea. 575 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: Why were you on a plane planning a kidnap? Well, 576 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: because it was right after the MO that we found 577 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: out that he had overdosed on heroin, his friends performed CPR. 578 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: They immediately took him to a rehab center in New Jersey. 579 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: He checked himself out within two days and went right 580 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 1: back to using. And it was with an older woman 581 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: that he was that he was now living with at 582 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: the time. And I was certain, and my wife and 583 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: I were certain that this was that this was the end. 584 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: He was the next time, he wasn't going to be 585 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: revived and he would be dead. So, uh, my oldest 586 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: son came home from college and the two of us 587 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: flew up there without a plan, because our plan was 588 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: if we have to stick him in a suitcase for 589 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: going to bring him home, we're going to force him home. 590 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: Of course, didn't work out that way, because the person 591 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: only can choose to come, and you can't exactly abducted 592 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: a nineteen year old at that point. You know, I'm 593 00:40:54,160 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: looking at your chapter titled planning the Funeral. When I 594 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,439 Speaker 1: say those words planning the funeral, I can't even bring 595 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: myself to put my twins in that sentence. But you 596 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: had to do that about your son. It says it 597 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: took eight days from the time I dropped Tommy for 598 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: the first time. Uh, he dropped him off. I guess 599 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: this is at a rehab until the experts deemed him 600 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: completely detoxed and ready for the next step of recovery. 601 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: He was transferred to recovery center and suddenly, after a 602 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: long weekend sleeping on benches and scrounging for food, he 603 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 1: shows back up and they give him a second chance. 604 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: Was this rehab number six or seven? Why do you 605 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: title this chapter planning the funeral for your son, because 606 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: we had been through so much of it at this 607 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: point that we had to reach it because it was 608 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 1: such a roller coaster. We had to reach a point 609 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: of what I all at the time hope neutral. In 610 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: other words, you can't get too hopeful or get too 611 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 1: high when he's doing well, because that makes the low 612 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: even lower when he's doing poorly. And we had to 613 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,240 Speaker 1: adjust to accepting the fact that there wasn't a single 614 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: thing we could do about It's not something we could 615 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: have any control over. All we could do is provide 616 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: him with the love and acceptance, but only he could 617 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 1: help himself. Ultimately, that's a tough thing to come around 618 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: for a parent. Yeah, we we take care of our 619 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: kids from the time they're young and and we try 620 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: to protect them from the world. When you have somebody 621 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 1: who's fallen into addiction, to accept that you no longer 622 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: have any control over what happens to them or what 623 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: they choose to do very difficult. So that so that 624 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 1: chapter related to my my wife's you know, lying in 625 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: bed and what she shared with me about what she 626 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: used to think about um. But it really was it 627 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: was a period where we accepted that we had no 628 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: control over his over ultimately whether he lived or died. 629 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: Your chapter fourteen is tital fleas things and fractures, and 630 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,879 Speaker 1: it describes your boy, after you've been through so much, 631 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: is living in a place, a slum east of Orlando, 632 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:39,359 Speaker 1: fleas things and fractures. Black teeth was the name. They 633 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: abused me, with sometimes several of them chanting this in unison. 634 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, that was to do with 635 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: my own childhood. That was that was I had a 636 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: condition with it, with the color of my teeth as 637 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: a young child, and that was it was my introduction 638 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: to how brutal kids can be when it comes to 639 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,879 Speaker 1: Bolan and how how does that relate to your son 640 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: living in this this horrible condition. Well, I think that 641 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: I think that that gave me empathy. I've never had 642 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,919 Speaker 1: any tolerance for bullies or people who choose to pick 643 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: on the week. I've never had any tolerance that in 644 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 1: my entire life, and I think that it created a 645 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: lot of empathy and in me. You just feel for 646 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: your son in those conditions. And he had been very 647 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: very he'd been living with a girl who was also 648 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: an addict, and and he'd been living in a in 649 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: a terrible conditions, as we found out, And it was 650 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: when she eventually died from an overdose that sent him 651 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: into his his very bad relapse where he almost died 652 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: again as well. And just really dr Carol Lieberman, ally psychiatrist, 653 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 1: how many times can you go through an overdose? Then 654 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: he's brought back to life, he's dragged to the hospital 655 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,720 Speaker 1: you put them through. I forgot how many rehabs? He said, 656 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: eight rehabs, centers, thirteen relapses? How many times can you 657 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: endure emotionally your child almost dying, not from an illness 658 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: inflicted upon them, but from their choice, their addiction. It's 659 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: not really a choice, it is an illness. It is 660 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: a physical addiction to go back to opioid. How can you, 661 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,359 Speaker 1: as a parent, how many times can you bring your 662 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: child back from death at the door of opioid and 663 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: and at some point just not get numb? Well, yes, 664 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: it's hard to not get numb. But the answer to 665 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: that is really as many times as it takes. You know, 666 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of ironic that um with opioids, and especially 667 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: since they start from prescription um. You know, they're prescribed 668 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: and get into the wrong hands and so on. But 669 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, they are for pain. These are pain killers. 670 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: And it's not so much um, physical pain, it's the 671 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,879 Speaker 1: emotional pain that people have that let them, let lead 672 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: them to become addicted to them. But I wanna, um, 673 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,879 Speaker 1: you know, I must say that, I'm wondering if there's 674 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: anything Rick that you would tell people to do differently, 675 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: because you say something in your book about you don't 676 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: believe in tough love, and yet um, it pains I'm 677 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,840 Speaker 1: talking about pain. It pains me, and I'm sure it 678 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,839 Speaker 1: pained you um a lot more to actually put your 679 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 1: son out of your house. I mean in a sense 680 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,640 Speaker 1: that is tough love. And I don't know that. I 681 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: mean from what you were saying, it seems like obviously 682 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: it was became intolerable. But um, out of your house, 683 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,279 Speaker 1: there is more chance of his dying of an overdose 684 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: as you saw. Actually, and I'm wondering, like why you 685 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: didn't call the police. You know, if someone is abusing 686 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: you said you couldn't bring a nineteen year old kidnap him, 687 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,399 Speaker 1: but you could call the police and um, they could 688 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: put him in jail for possessing or you know, the 689 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: drugs or some some crime that they could use to 690 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: put him in jail, which would start at least his 691 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,080 Speaker 1: detox and then you could get him to a hospital. 692 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: Your question is why he didn't call police? I think 693 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: what about it? Right? Well, when you know, let me 694 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: address the tough love thing. Initially, we did believe in 695 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: tough love, because that's what the that's what the doctrine 696 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: of of the same kind of doctrine that's all or 697 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: nothing of twelve steps, which is that this is the 698 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: only approach that works. Is that. It was much later 699 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 1: when we realized that tough love rarely works with a 700 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,280 Speaker 1: person when the core issues self esteem and and feelings 701 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: of worthlessness. As far as calling the police, when we 702 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 1: were in New Jersey, there was no grounds to have 703 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: him arrested. He had no drugs on him per se. 704 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: There was you know, he was a adults. There was 705 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: nothing really that we were aware of that was like 706 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: a Baker act in Florida or anything of that nature. 707 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: So there really wasn't much we could do. He didn't 708 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: live with us, he was already on his own. Uh So, 709 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: So there's two different things. One was the tough love 710 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 1: earlier on, before we realized that there was no no 711 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: positive impact of that. In the second, ones was the 712 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: why we didn't call the police much later when we 713 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: tried to force the home. I want to get to 714 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 1: chapter eighteen called Breakthrough, and you described going into the 715 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: hospital to see Tommy, your son, your boy you've been 716 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,800 Speaker 1: battling for, and he is lying attached to i v 717 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: s and heart monitoring wires. At first, you're happy to 718 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: see that he's not bloody and battered, but quickly that 719 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 1: relief turned to frustration. Why well, he wanted nothing to 720 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 1: do with with me being there. As soon as I 721 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 1: tried to talk to him about about, you know, getting 722 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,480 Speaker 1: some more help, he felt nothing was wrong. It was 723 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,400 Speaker 1: just a little bump in the road and he needed 724 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,359 Speaker 1: to get to work. So he was ready to sign 725 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 1: himself out of hospital. And then when I started asking 726 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,280 Speaker 1: him what had happened, uh, he wouldn't give me any information. 727 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,040 Speaker 1: And then of course the nurses wouldn't give me any information. 728 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,400 Speaker 1: And so it's just a cycle of of madness in 729 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:23,839 Speaker 1: many ways, of of you know again, helplessness and understanding 730 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,239 Speaker 1: that you don't have any control over this. I think 731 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: the biggest thing is you just can't give up. As 732 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 1: as was mentioned, you they're your child. You'll do anything 733 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,920 Speaker 1: to save them, and you'll do anything to help them 734 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,239 Speaker 1: within your power, no matter what. And that's really our 735 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,800 Speaker 1: fight through that. He understands that now. I think that 736 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: it's the reason he's alive today is that and doing 737 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,839 Speaker 1: quite well. Is the fact that we wouldn't give up 738 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,439 Speaker 1: on him, and we had to convince our our other 739 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: children to not give up on him as well and 740 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 1: to embrace him. Very difficult journey with me. Rick van Warner, 741 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 1: author of On Peels and Needles, The Relentless Fight to 742 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: Save My Son from Opioid Addiction. Dr William Moroney, opioid 743 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: addiction expert and author of American Narcan, The likea Zone 744 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: and Heroin Finnell Associated Mortality and renowned psychiatrist Dr Carol Lieberman. Rick, 745 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: what is your advice to parents, Well, I would advise 746 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 1: that no matter what, don't give up. Understand that you're 747 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,960 Speaker 1: your child. When they are using opioids, they only have 748 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,800 Speaker 1: one thing on their mind. It's the drugs, reason, logic, 749 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:43,359 Speaker 1: normal punishment that might change behavior. All those are out 750 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,839 Speaker 1: the window. It's again the same same idea of tough love, 751 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,800 Speaker 1: rarely working with somebody who feel so so low about themselves. 752 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: So I think that the biggest thing is to accept 753 00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,200 Speaker 1: without judgment. Um, you know, don't sweat the small uf. 754 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,800 Speaker 1: I mean it are in our case, he's alive, So 755 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,880 Speaker 1: what if he now has a couple of tattoos or 756 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,879 Speaker 1: you know, he don't sweat the small stuff. The most 757 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,759 Speaker 1: important thing is to keep them alive, to let them 758 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,279 Speaker 1: know they're loved and that you're not judging them, and 759 00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,680 Speaker 1: that you accept them, recognize there will always be ups 760 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,440 Speaker 1: and downs, but your job first and foremost is to 761 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: keep them afloat. You know, people who are as as 762 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,840 Speaker 1: what the doctors mentioned, people who use opioids. It rewires 763 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,800 Speaker 1: their brains. The good news is the brain can repair 764 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 1: over a long period of sobriety, but it does rewire 765 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,960 Speaker 1: the brain in ways that it is so difficult for 766 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,320 Speaker 1: them to to get off the drugs and to overcome this. 767 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: Uh I understood that it took very minor setbacks would 768 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,000 Speaker 1: lead him to relapse and a car accident, a breakup 769 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,759 Speaker 1: with a girlfriend. Of course, you know, the death of 770 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 1: a girlfriend was was the worst, but all these types 771 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:04,880 Speaker 1: of things. Understanding that that these these small coping mechanisms 772 00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,760 Speaker 1: are just not there for somebody whose brains being rewired 773 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 1: biopioids on pills and needles. Rick Van Warner joining US 774 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,399 Speaker 1: with Dr William Moroney and Carol Lieberman. Nancy Grace Crime 775 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,040 Speaker 1: Stories signing off Goodbye friend,