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Speaker 1: As media.

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Speaker 2: Hello everyone, it's me James and I'm joined today by Erica,

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Speaker 2: who is an attorney the director at Alotto Lada, which

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Speaker 2: is a binational nonprofit that does legal humanitarian aid between

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Speaker 2: San Diego and Tijuana. And we're here to discuss the

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Speaker 2: open air detention sites and some things that Jim Desmond,

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Speaker 2: one of our county supervisors, has been saying about them.

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Speaker 2: So welcome to the show. Erica.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, it's nice to have you here. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for taking the time. So I want to start off

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Speaker 2: by talking about Jim Desmond today, which is something I

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Speaker 2: like to do if people aren't familiar with Jim Desmond.

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Speaker 2: Jim Desmond is a supervisor in San Diego County. He's

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Speaker 2: from District five, which is northern San Diego County. He's

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Speaker 2: a Republican. He's the former mayor of San Marcos, which

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Speaker 2: is a city in North County, and before that he

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Speaker 2: was a pilot in the Navy. He's pretty much like

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Speaker 2: a standard culture war boomer and a reminder to us

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Speaker 2: all that there are people of today. He grew up

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Speaker 2: when they put lead and children to toys. Notable gyp

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Speaker 2: Desmonds dances include his stance on climate change, which I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to read to you try and follow it

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Speaker 2: if you can. It's a challenge. I think the climate

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Speaker 2: has been changing since the beginning of time. The climate

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Speaker 2: comes and the climate goes. The Great Lakes, the Great Plains,

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Speaker 2: as a Yosemite Valley, all formed by glaciers. They've been

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Speaker 2: gone a long long time. So you find seashells on mountaintops.

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Speaker 2: You see where it used to be. You know, the

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Speaker 2: land masses were Pangaea, and then the land matters all

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Speaker 2: change and move around. So I say, we may be

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Speaker 2: part of climate change, but I think the only reason

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Speaker 2: we're here and we're still here today is because we

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Speaker 2: as a species learn to adapt to different climates and

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Speaker 2: climate changes. Now, maybe we're maybe exacerbating it a bit

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Speaker 2: towards the end of the warming trend, but I don't

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Speaker 2: know that. So it's just that's about.

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Speaker 3: As convoluted as his governing strategy here in San Diego County.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's said a lot of words, but it

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Speaker 2: really conveyed very little meaning. But yeah, this is kind

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Speaker 2: of he seems to like speaking, but but maybe like

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Speaker 2: he doesn't take quite as long as one would hope

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Speaker 2: to plan out where he's going with its sentences before

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Speaker 2: he delivers him. He also has a podcast, so I

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Speaker 2: guess our podcasting rival. Did you have you listened to

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Speaker 2: his podcast, Dereka.

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Speaker 3: No, I am, but it might be entertaining, So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'll take a look at it.

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Speaker 2: Definitely. I know it'll you can learn some things about

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Speaker 2: coronavirus for instance. God, yeah, it's good stuff. In May

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, he claimed there had been six pure

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Speaker 2: solely coronavirus deaths the other two hundred or so that

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Speaker 2: happened to County by them, we're not quote unquote pure

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Speaker 2: coronavirus deaths. I guess by his estimation. So in this

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Speaker 2: little escapade got him cited by Joe Rogan on the

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Speaker 2: Joe Rogan Podcast, which must have been a great moment Desmond.

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Speaker 2: He hosted a ton of COVID skeptics on his podcast

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Speaker 2: as well. Throughout the lockdowns he did. After he like

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Speaker 2: caused some controversy on Twitter, which is a recurring theme,

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Speaker 2: he hosted an actual immunologist on his show, and this

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Speaker 2: was the only guest who he really kind of argued with,

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Speaker 2: and in doing so, he said, I quote the herd

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Speaker 2: needs to get it, and he's talking about COVID here

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Speaker 2: and we'll have a better handle on it. So to me,

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Speaker 2: the number of cases means the herd's getting it, so

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Speaker 2: that's a good thing. And then his guests corrected in,

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Speaker 2: pointing out that there needs to be like immunity for

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Speaker 2: there to be heard immunity, and what he's just looking

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Speaker 2: at it is contagion, not immunity, so he sort of

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Speaker 2: He continued to make these claims throughout the pandemic right

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Speaker 2: that the lockdown was holding our jobs hostage, bad for

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Speaker 2: the economy. He wasn't an anti maskt Interestingly, he said

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Speaker 2: we should wear masks. That's what it took to open

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Speaker 2: the businesses. Again, he at least, I mean he's always

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Speaker 2: been pretty terrible on border stuff, right, Erica. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you've encountered some of his border stances before.

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Speaker 3: I think all of the supervisors are terrible on border stuff.

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Speaker 3: But at least he says the quiet part out loud. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we'll get more into that later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I want to talk about how that Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that the the Democrats been carible on the border is

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Speaker 2: something that I think we can't say enough. In recent months,

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Speaker 2: he held a press conference claiming the border should be

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Speaker 2: shut down to prevent an influx It's not a quote,

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Speaker 2: it's a paraphrase here, but to prevent an influx of

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Speaker 2: har mass fighters, which I don't know. It shows a

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Speaker 2: misunderstanding of a lot of things, like like how her

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Speaker 2: mass works, and also how the border works, like the

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Speaker 2: idea that a one could leave Gaza at this time

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Speaker 2: and be that one could just fly into Mexico like

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Speaker 2: where of course, like they wouldn't immediately notice that you

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Speaker 2: had come, like armed in a to attack the US border.

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Speaker 3: But I think just with the COVID stuff and with

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Speaker 3: the border stuff, he is just throwing red meat to

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Speaker 3: his base. But it's not necessarily aligned with what he does,

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Speaker 3: and I would assume it's not aligned with what he

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Speaker 3: actually knows, Like we're the COVID stuff. He did set

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Speaker 3: up vaccination clinics in his district, and so he's clearly

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Speaker 3: not a complete skeptic, at least that's not what his

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Speaker 3: action showed. And I think for some of your listeners

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Speaker 3: who are not in the United States or maybe not

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Speaker 3: in California, yet we are on the border in San Diego.

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Speaker 3: You can get to Mexico within you know, if you're

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Speaker 3: in Jim Desmon's district, within half an hour, you're in Tijuana.

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Speaker 3: And I assume he's been here for many years, and

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Speaker 3: so he has to know more about the border than

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Speaker 3: he's letting on. It's just really like he's regurgitating the

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Speaker 3: right wing narrative to garner pull coal points. I think

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Speaker 3: in a county where he's the last standing Republican on

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Speaker 3: the board of supervisors, So I think that's important to

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Speaker 3: remember too.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, it definitely seems like this is kind of and

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Speaker 2: you see he does a lot of appearance on writing

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Speaker 2: news channels, right, Like he's often on Fox. But then

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Speaker 2: our local kind of crazy writ wing news channel is KUSI,

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Speaker 2: who have really doubled down on the culture war stuff

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Speaker 2: since like twenty twenty, and you'll see him on there

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Speaker 2: a lot and talking about the border a lot. Right.

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Speaker 2: It seems to, as you say, like either be like

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Speaker 2: an attempt for reelection or perhaps for higher office. I

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Speaker 2: don't know, but he he'll make a lot of claims

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Speaker 2: about the border which are just patently untrue, which is

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Speaker 2: what I want to talk about now. So he spent

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Speaker 2: his New Year's Day in cucumber making little videos for

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Speaker 2: Twitter and Instagram. I was the only years Das too.

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Speaker 2: I didn't at really see him, which is a shame.

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Speaker 2: But that day they weren't many people at all who

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Speaker 2: are in the open air attention sites, so he sort

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Speaker 2: of made videos in front of empty tents. It was

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Speaker 2: a bit weird. In his first one, he wrote, today

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Speaker 2: I visited the border and migrant encampments in Cucumber. The

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Speaker 2: chaos continues with dozens of people camping out waiting for

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Speaker 2: Border patrol to take them to resource center paid for

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Speaker 2: by county taxpayers. He's not like you cold. I'm sure Erica,

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Speaker 2: you can explain this as well. He's not wrong that

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Speaker 2: they may eventually end up at the quote unquote welcome center,

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Speaker 2: which is paid for by county funds, which came from

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Speaker 2: the American Rescue Act, which is of course federal money.

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Speaker 2: But it's a little more complicated than that, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the migrants are being held in what are

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Speaker 3: essentially open air prisons by border patrol. We the collective

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Speaker 3: of nonprofits, mutual aid groups and volunteers are the only

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Speaker 3: ones who've been paying for water, food, medical assistance, shelter,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. For people who are being held in these

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Speaker 3: open air prisons, sometimes for days at a time, including

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Speaker 3: the medically infirm and children. And so I think that's

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Speaker 3: one piece of it to understand, because he did say

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Speaker 3: in when he was speaking in front of the empty tent,

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Speaker 3: that the county tax payers were paying for those things,

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Speaker 3: which is patently untrue. But then just again, understanding the

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Speaker 3: process is something that he has to understand. He's been

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Speaker 3: here for decades. He has to know that these people

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Speaker 3: are being taken into border patrol custody, processed, and then

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Speaker 3: either released to the county funded welcome center or they

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Speaker 3: are detained by immigration. And so it's the same legal

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Speaker 3: process we've had for decades at the border, where people

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Speaker 3: have a right to seek asylum, whether they enter at

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Speaker 3: a port of entry or not. And the real controversy

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Speaker 3: here is the fact that border patrol is holding people

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Speaker 3: outdoors for days at a time without the things that

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Speaker 3: they need to sarrive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to get back to that claim that

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Speaker 2: he made right that the county paid for it. We

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Speaker 2: got some audio of him making that claim, so we'll

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Speaker 2: just play it here. As we look inside this abandoned tent,

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Speaker 2: there's there's a sandwich left in a baggy.

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Speaker 1: There's water with bananas, ponchos, crackers, snacks, waters, and this

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Speaker 1: tent is empty.

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Speaker 3: Maybe these's just the same way. There's no one here yet,

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Speaker 3: Probably in the next day or.

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Speaker 2: So, there'll be more migrants coming inhabiting Nessa and then

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Speaker 2: being processed.

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Speaker 3: For San Diego County, being paid for with San.

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Speaker 2: Diego tax So in the caption that accompanied this video,

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Speaker 2: he wrote, quote, during my recent boarder visit, I encountered

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Speaker 2: an abandoned campsite filled with tents, food, drinks, and campfires,

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Speaker 2: paid for by San Diego County taxpayers. This site is

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Speaker 2: used as a temporary holding site before migrants and then

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Speaker 2: processed into our country. And this leg gets to the

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Speaker 2: thing I think that is where he like bullshitted too

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Speaker 2: close to the sun. Because none of that, as you said,

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Speaker 2: was paid for like taxpayers, Right, all of that was

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Speaker 2: paid for by yeah people like nonprofit to mutual aid people.

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Speaker 2: And can you give a sense of the amount of

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Speaker 2: spending that Alo Trolado has had to take on to

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Speaker 2: make these open air prisents like survivable for people, And

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Speaker 2: even still they're deeply unpleasant even with.

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Speaker 3: All the work. Yeah, so we have acted as a

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Speaker 3: fiscal sponsor for a lot of the smaller groups because

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Speaker 3: we are able to receive foundation funding as a five

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Speaker 3: h one C three, and so we've used that legal

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Speaker 3: status to support a lot of the mutual aid groups

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Speaker 3: that have been spending tens of thousands of dollars. But

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Speaker 3: I've gone through the budgets and we've spent an average

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Speaker 3: of about one hundred and fifty thousand dollars per month,

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Speaker 3: which is a lot for us. But when you look

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Speaker 3: at the Department of Homeland Security, which should be spending

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Speaker 3: this money, they have one hundred and seventy billion dollar

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Speaker 3: budget for twenty twenty three. I think it's even higher

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Speaker 3: for a fiscal year twenty twenty four. So it's really

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Speaker 3: you know, probably what they spend on one of those

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Speaker 3: autonomous surveillance towers that are sitting in the camps in

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Speaker 3: like a day, right, So it's really nothing for them.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's very clear that they're making a choice

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Speaker 3: to leave these really vulnerable migrants to potentially die in

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Speaker 3: the desert. And then when we look at the county funding,

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Speaker 3: you know, they've allocated now six million dollars to this

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Speaker 3: welcome center, which you know, we'll talk about in more detail,

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Speaker 3: but it's really providing woefully inadequate services to the same

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Speaker 3: population that's going through these open air detention sites after

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Speaker 3: they've been released from Border Patrol custody. So again, it's

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Speaker 3: like it's a lot of money for us, it's not

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Speaker 3: a lot of money for the county. I would love

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Speaker 3: it if the county would. They've stated on multiple occasions

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Speaker 3: that they will not. It's been pure philanthropic funding and donations.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean we've been able to do a

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Speaker 3: lot with very little, and it really was the bare

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Speaker 3: minimum to keep people alive. So yeah, if we had

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Speaker 3: an actual junion of county funding, I'm sure we could

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Speaker 3: have done a lot more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And like even we don't have access to the

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Speaker 2: things that government has access to, right Like, normally in

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Speaker 2: a refugee situation, we'd have UNHC tents, we'd have humanitarian MRIs,

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Speaker 2: we had to buy those. On this we couldn't get

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Speaker 2: the tents and we end the MREs. We had to

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Speaker 2: find on the surplus market, right like, we can't. The

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Speaker 2: state could do more for less, but they're very much

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Speaker 2: choosing not to, as you said, So the result of

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Speaker 2: this was rather amusing a number of people from mutual

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Speaker 2: a groups, including friends of ours from Free Shick Collective,

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Speaker 2: took to Desmond to office with literal receipts, right, war's

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Speaker 2: your seats. Yes, yeah, it was a tremendous moment. And

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Speaker 2: we don't mean receipts like in the figurative sense. We

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Speaker 2: mean like pieces of paper from Costco. Yeah, oh yeah, no.

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Speaker 3: And the fact is, you know, within a number of

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Speaker 3: hours the folks from Free Shit Collective and others were

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Speaker 3: able to just pull together over sixteen thousand dollars in receipts.

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Speaker 3: And that's, like I mentioned, a small fraction of what

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Speaker 3: we've actually been spending. That's probably just their receipts from

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Speaker 3: the week. And so again for us, it's like that's

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Speaker 3: an enormous lift. I know, we're all exhausted, those of

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Speaker 3: us who have been working in the open air detention sites.

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Speaker 3: It's exhausting to be there all the time. It's exhausting

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Speaker 3: to try to raise enough money to keep thousands and

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Speaker 3: thousands of people alive when they're forced into a deadly situation.

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Speaker 3: And so it's I think we were all pretty pissed

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Speaker 3: off when we heard him taking credit for that even

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Speaker 3: if he was trying to denigrate, you know, the idea

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Speaker 3: of spending money on refugees.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Like it's funny because he'll also say, like

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Speaker 2: it's inhumane, it's unacceptable. But like, if you're not going

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Speaker 2: to do anything to stop the humanity, the inhumanity, Like

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Speaker 2: I don't really find that a very believable claim. Like

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Speaker 2: he was literally standing Willows, so like less than a

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Speaker 2: mile from where we spend that day making sandwiches and

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Speaker 2: cooking beans and doing the things we do every day

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Speaker 2: sorting out coats, you know, and he could have come

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Speaker 2: helped or even just come and said, what you guys

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Speaker 2: are doing is great, but he chose not to. He

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Speaker 2: just stood in front of his whoever was filming him alive.

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Speaker 3: His proposed solution is to close the border, which he

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Speaker 3: knows is not an option because the Refugee Convention is

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Speaker 3: still a thing, the US is still a signatory. You know,

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Speaker 3: we have legal obligations under both domestic and international law

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Speaker 3: to accept asylum seekers in our country, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: his solution to the inhumanity is to push people back

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Speaker 3: over the Mexican border, where you know they're subject to

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Speaker 3: all manner of state and criminal violence. So I don't

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Speaker 3: think that inhumanity is really his priority to address. It's

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Speaker 3: really again just like throwing red meat to the base

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Speaker 3: to you know, this open border's hysteria that they all

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Speaker 3: love to cite.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, talking of hysteria, we should take a little break

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Speaker 2: for some adverts for things that might try to get

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Speaker 2: you to buy them by making you a freight and

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Speaker 2: you shouldn't. We are back, and yeah, I want to

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Speaker 2: talk a little more about that. Like, is this idea

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Speaker 2: of a closed board do you see a lot mostly

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Speaker 2: from Republicans right, Like, it's like you say, it's not

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Speaker 2: only legally impossible, it's also like physically impossible. And we

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Speaker 2: people enter the US through gaps in the border wall.

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Speaker 2: When people enter the US, gaps in the border water

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Speaker 2: she'd had, because we've made it virtually impossible for them

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Speaker 2: to get asylum appointments in a reasonable timeframe and to

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Speaker 2: be in a place that's safe while they make those appointments.

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Speaker 2: And so like the idea that we could how do

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Speaker 2: we close you know, like the physical border?

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Speaker 3: Well just yeah, I mean I just want to take

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Speaker 3: a step back for one second, because this sort of

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Speaker 3: Biden's open borders hysteria that we've heard so much from

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Speaker 3: the right wing. I think it's worth unpacking what this

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Speaker 3: means because I've seen, you know, people in the Democratic

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Speaker 3: Party or even people on the left really shy away

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Speaker 3: from this idea of open borders. And when those of

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Speaker 3: us who have first World passports already have a world

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Speaker 3: of open borders, I mean, we can pretty much go

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Speaker 3: wherever we want, you know, we gentrify other countries to

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Speaker 3: their detriment. Like it's not there really are not many

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Speaker 3: restrictions on first world citizens moving around the world. So

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Speaker 3: I think that's one important thing to consider as we're

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Speaker 3: kind of launching into this discussion. It's like open borders

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Speaker 3: are okay for me, but not for brown people. Like yeah,

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Speaker 3: so little, you know, And that's kind of the underlying

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Speaker 3: impetus behind a lot of what we're going to talk

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Speaker 3: about in San Diego County. It's like, people this underlying

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Speaker 3: idea that people should not have the right to come here,

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Speaker 3: which is just ludicrous. So I think that's one thing.

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Speaker 3: But when we're talking about asylum in particular, you know,

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Speaker 3: like I mentioned earlier, we are signatories with Refugee Convention

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Speaker 3: and the subsequent nineteen sixty seven Protocol that this has

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Speaker 3: been enshrined in domestic law in the nineteen eighty Refugee Act,

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Speaker 3: and so refugees who are people outside of their country

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Speaker 3: of origin fleeing persecution have the right to ask for

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Speaker 3: protection at the US Mexico border, whether it's at a

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Speaker 3: port of entry or between ports of entry. So those

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Speaker 3: in Hakumba and these other opener tension sites are those

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Speaker 3: crossing between ports of entry because it's been made impossible

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Speaker 3: to approach the port of entry and seek asylum. And

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Speaker 3: this is something that our organization has been litigating for years.

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Speaker 3: You know, at first people were just being turned away.

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Speaker 3: Then there was a waiting list in Mexico. Now they

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Speaker 3: have this stupid app that's just like glitches and there's

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Speaker 3: no enough appointments and people have to wait for months

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Speaker 3: in Mexico just to get an appointment if they're one

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Speaker 3: of the lucky ones who can. The app's also been

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Speaker 3: hacked by organized crime. You know, certain nationalities are able

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Speaker 3: to pay for appointments. It's just it's a complete mess.

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Speaker 3: It has nothing to do with this ideal. You know

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Speaker 3: that the Refugee Conventionment is supposed to enshrine so regardless

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Speaker 3: of you know, all of the illegal things the US

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Speaker 3: government is doing, like you cannot close the porter to

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Speaker 3: assylum seekers without withdrawing from the Refugee Convention, and I

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Speaker 3: just really don't see that happening for our country, just

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Speaker 3: because we like to, you know, talk about how we're

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Speaker 3: abashed for human rights, et cetera, which you know, that's

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Speaker 3: a whole other podcast.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, we can, yeah, break that down

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Speaker 2: a little bit. But I think one thing that you

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Speaker 2: said that I want to talk about is that you

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Speaker 2: said that open borders or like free travel for brown

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Speaker 2: people is something that a lot of more privileged folks,

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Speaker 2: especially in San Diego, even in San Diego, should say

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Speaker 2: are uncomfortable with. I think we really saw, like it's

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Speaker 2: not just skin color, but it's really hard for me

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Speaker 2: to see skin color not playing a large role when

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Speaker 2: I see people from Africa, people from South America waiting

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Speaker 2: for months, if not years, and then people from Ukraine

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Speaker 2: coming at when the largest scale conflict in Ukraine began

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Speaker 2: and effectively skipping the line.

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Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, So when the Ukrainians all came through Tijuana,

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Speaker 3: I think there were maybe twenty thousand or so who

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Speaker 3: came through in a period of a month. That was

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Speaker 3: during Title forty two, which was a Trump era policy

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Speaker 3: that closed the border to asylum seekers based on public

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Speaker 3: health reasons, but really it was because they wanted to

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Speaker 3: close the border to asylum seekers, and so there were

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Speaker 3: very few humanitarian exemptions granted to Title forty two at

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Speaker 3: that time. But at the time the Ukrainians came, that

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Speaker 3: exemption process had actually been shut down for quite a while.

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Speaker 3: So I was watching people die in Tijuana because they

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Speaker 3: didn't have access to the US asylum system. I remember

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Speaker 3: when the Ukrainians came, there was a child who caught

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Speaker 3: pneumonia in one of the shelters. It was like a

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Speaker 3: month's old baby who died. And then when the Ukrainians came,

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Speaker 3: you know, the doors were flung open for them. CBP,

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Speaker 3: which up until that point said they did not have

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Speaker 3: capacity to process asylum seekers. They were processing Ukrainians at

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Speaker 3: a clip of one thousand a day and it was

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Speaker 3: heartbreaking to see. And you know, after they shut off

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Speaker 3: the sticket for the Ukrainians, after they stopped letting them

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Speaker 3: in at the border, CBP said they only had capacity

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Speaker 3: to process a few dozen non white asylum seekers and

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Speaker 3: so all of a sudden, their capacity was just gone.

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Speaker 3: It was, you know, it just it was so transparent

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Speaker 3: and so blatant and so hurtful for people who'd been

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Speaker 3: suffering at that point for years with the silent system

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Speaker 3: closed off to them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it was really hard to see that and

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Speaker 2: to know the people, the people who I guess effectively

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Speaker 2: they lost their place in line, right or people cut

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Speaker 2: in front of them. And to a large degree, it's

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Speaker 2: still much easier, right we're under Title eight and now

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Speaker 2: not Title forty two, But it's still much easier for

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Speaker 2: wealthy white people to get appointments using CBP one than

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Speaker 2: it is for poor and non white people.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, because especially when the app was first launched,

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Speaker 3: there's a point in the appointment process during which you

388
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Speaker 3: have to take a photo of yourself and it maps

389
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Speaker 3: your face for facial recognition purposes, and it wasn't working

390
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Speaker 3: on really dark skinned people. You know, a few of

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Speaker 3: the organizations working in Mexico had to buy the construction

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Speaker 3: style lights to shine on people's faces so that it

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Speaker 3: would a photo to pick them up. But just even

394
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Speaker 3: like you have to have a new phone, I think

395
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Speaker 3: they probably made the app to work on an iPhone,

396
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Speaker 3: which most people outside the United States don't have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's like I've got a tip on that

398
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Speaker 2: I've not been able to confirm it, but someone at

399
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 2: the Ice store told the I store of the Apple

400
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Speaker 2: Store told me that it wasn't working on certain Samsung

401
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Speaker 2: and Huawei phones and that they were having people come

402
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Speaker 2: in and buy like the cheapest iPhone they could in

403
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Speaker 2: bulk to try and access it.

404
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Speaker 3: Well, we keep iPhones in our office in Tikwana exactly

405
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Speaker 3: for that reason, because you know, people need to be

406
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Speaker 3: able to access the app. But now the well, the

407
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 3: app has been hacked for a while. So there's some

408
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Speaker 3: groups that work mostly I would say with Russian asylum seekers.

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Speaker 3: They're charging I think around between five hundred and one

410
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Speaker 3: thousand for an appointment, maybe more. Sometimes I'm not sure

411
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Speaker 3: exactly how they're doing it. I know also there's been

412
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Speaker 3: some hacking of the geolocation features, so these criminal groups

413
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Speaker 3: are selling appointments to people who haven't even left their

414
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Speaker 3: home country. And meanwhile, you know, the shelters on the

415
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Speaker 3: border are full of people with crappy phones and a

416
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Speaker 3: week in their net connection who wait for months and

417
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Speaker 3: months and months while the richer people who are paying

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Speaker 3: for nice phones and appointments are able to get through

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Speaker 3: much more quickly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's made of a fucked up system. Even more

421
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Speaker 2: fucked up they designed it in house as well, which

422
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Speaker 2: you know they are paid to have overestimated their abilities there.

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Speaker 2: One day I'll get my foyers back about cepp one,

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Speaker 2: and it will probably be some point the middle of

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Speaker 2: the next presidential administration, which will make them irrelevant and

426
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Speaker 2: really freaking annoying.

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Speaker 3: But well, we're suing about it too, so it'll probably

428
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Speaker 3: be a few years before we get to discovery.

429
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Speaker 2: But yeah, we'll have a race.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you are assuming that they want the system

431
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Speaker 3: to work, which they don't.

432
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, that's fair.

433
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 3: So in that sense, it's working perfectly.

434
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,239
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And it's doing in a sense what like

435
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: the unofficial dertone of immigration policy has always been, which

436
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 2: is that, like, it's fine for wealthy white people to

437
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 2: come here, but we want to limit the number of

438
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: non white and non wealthy people who come here. And

439
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: like they can say out loud, like and maybe we

440
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: should talk about this now. The difference between Trump and

441
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 2: Biden is Trump just said it and Biden didn't, and

442
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 2: when Trump said it, like wealth well meaning liberals in

443
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 2: the Midwest gave a shit and sent money. Like in

444
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, things were very bad in Tijuana, right with

445
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: the people staying in the Elberatal, Like, at least people

446
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: in America cared and sent money so we could help.

447
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: Whereas now, like you know, major outlets who have given

448
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: ten front page stories to accusations of one woman plagiarizing

449
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: and a dissertation that she wrote years ago, haven't written

450
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 2: a single piece about the open air concentration camps that

451
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: our government has in a cumber in other places.

452
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: Well, not just that, I mean the media by and

453
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: large has allowed this right wing narrative of open borders

454
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 3: to take over, even though the policies are largely identical

455
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 3: to the Trump administration. Right, so they're even talking about

456
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 3: now bringing back a Title forty two type restriction that

457
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 3: would turn away asylum seekers and send them back to Mexico.

458
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 3: We have the asylum ban, which is very similar to

459
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 3: the one that was litigated under the Trump administration. I mean,

460
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 3: it's just you know, family separation. Maybe it's not the

461
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 3: minor children being taken away, but still thousands of families

462
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 3: being separated I think there's a couple things. Like one

463
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 3: is just people hate when Trump does it, but they

464
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 3: don't hate when Biden does it. That's one.

465
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

466
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: But also, like you said, Trump says the quiet part

467
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 3: out loud, and so people respond to that, whereas Biden

468
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 3: has co opted the immigrant rights movement by putting us

469
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 3: in a stakeholder relationship. And I can see amongst some

470
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 3: of my colleagues that they value access to power more

471
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 3: than the rights of the people that we are supposed

472
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 3: to serve, and so they will go along with a

473
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 3: lot of this stuff and you know, basically enable it

474
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 3: in many ways just to maintain that access to power.

475
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: And I've seen some of my colleagues who you know,

476
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: we were all finding on the same side during the

477
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 3: Trump administration have actually gone into the Biden administration that

478
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: are implementing these policies, and so it's you know, it's

479
00:26:55,359 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 3: it's really like pretty horrifying to see. And so I

480
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 3: would say that people in the Biden administration are in

481
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 3: many a ways smarter because it was easier to litigate

482
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 3: under the Trump administration. We could knock down a lot

483
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 3: of these policies because they were just dumb, not well written,

484
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 3: you know, it was like clearly unconstitutional. You know, they

485
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 3: learned lessons during the Mining ministry or during the Trump administration.

486
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 3: So now the policies are written in a way that

487
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: are that make it much more difficult to litigate. And

488
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court in twenty twenty two, in a decision

489
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: called Ali mang Gonzalez, made it impossible to get class

490
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: wide injunctive relief for violations of immigration law. So what

491
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 3: that means is that DHS can violate the law and

492
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 3: there's no way to stop them from doing so on

493
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 3: a large scale in the courts, and they are banking

494
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 3: on that when in current litigation, they literally are relying

495
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 3: on that to continue breaking the law, especially when it

496
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 3: comes to turning asylum seekers away.

497
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and something else that Testament has asked for is

498
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: to turn asylum seekers away before they get to the

499
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: border and then quite understand what they like, like that

500
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: would be inside Mexico, which.

501
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: Well that's what Mexico is doing right now.

502
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're like I was in Coocomber, like

503
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: on Friday Thursday and they get National Guard or like

504
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 2: sitting at the little gaps in the wall.

505
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 3: I mean you've seen it too, you see National Guard,

506
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 3: Mexican National Guard drive up. They kind of check out

507
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: the situation and leave, and then the travel agents come

508
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 3: and drop off the migrants. And so it's something very

509
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 3: much that can be controlled to a great extent within

510
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: Mexico and the US is very obviously, you know, working

511
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 3: with Mexico publicly, obviously working with Mexico to stop migrants

512
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 3: from reaching the US Mexico border, and working with countries

513
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: further south to stop people from reaching the US Mexico border.

514
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 3: So this is definitely a regional project.

515
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing I want to talk about is as

516
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: people come through those countries further south, there's this It's

517
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: it's like in recent days, even like we're recording this

518
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: on on Monday, people here it on Wednesday. But I've

519
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: seen this narrative and I think it's coming from the

520
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: fact that friendly for Ukraine was tied to funding for

521
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: the border, and people have lost their minds over the

522
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: conflict in Ukraine and and and they have silly dog

523
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: pictures on Twitter, and and it's become a replacement for

524
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: a personality for a certain type of divorce guy. Like

525
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: so so like, yeah, the Army of divorced dads has

526
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: like turned on the border and like one of the

527
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: things you'll say is like, oh, like the border is

528
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: like a like like this is how like bad actors

529
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: are getting in the US, you know, like you know,

530
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: har mass again, like the Harmas are really otherwise engaged

531
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: in the minute, but.

532
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: Like yeah they're busy.

533
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like there's a whole lot of people who

534
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: would love to leave Gaza and we abolutely should welcome

535
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: those people here, but they can't and that's fucked up.

536
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, this idea that like isis Hamas the Russian

537
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: secret of the Russian FSB. I'm sure someone will have suggested,

538
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: like North Korea or the PSC are coming through Hacomber

539
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: as well, like they seem it seems to admit admit

540
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: what happens to people entering Mexico and indeed other countries

541
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: further south, right, Like can you explain how people think

542
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: the thing that the US is the only state with

543
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: a capacity for surveillance, which is manifestly untrue? Can you

544
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: explain how people are like surveiled and like make legible

545
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: on their way north?

546
00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 3: There are multiple multilateral and bilateral information sharing greens that

547
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: connect to criminal and quote unquote intelligence databases. So when

548
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 3: you are traveling internationally, you are subject to a web

549
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: of surveillance that is, you know, in many ways connected

550
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 3: to the United States, so the US government knows you're coming,

551
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: like you know when you are countries away, just by

552
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 3: virtually using a passport. But then for people who are

553
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: traveling it through a regular means, there's also a web

554
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 3: of biometric collection stations that have been set up by

555
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: the Department of Homeland Security, most notably north of the

556
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: Darien Gap, and so extra continental migrants, those from outside

557
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: of the Americas as well as some Venezuelans and a

558
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 3: few other nationalities, have their fingerprints taken Irish scans pictures

559
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 3: taking for facial recognition, and that is entered into a

560
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: database that is shared directly with the US government. There's

561
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 3: several other bilateral information sharing agreements that are focused particularly

562
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 3: on biometrics, with several Central American countries and with Mexico obviously,

563
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 3: and Mexico has just insane enforcement in southern Mexico. If

564
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: you've ever tried to travel over land from top of

565
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 3: Toula in Mexico City, you will go through numerous checkpoints

566
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 3: where you know your information is taken. You know, a

567
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: lot of times you're just paying a bribe to keep going.

568
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 3: But it's something where you know they know who's coming.

569
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: That's why you hear all the time in the media

570
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 3: like this, many people are coming through the dairy and gap.

571
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 3: How do they know that, Well, they have these biometric

572
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 3: you know, information collection stations. But I think just more broadly,

573
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 3: like coming through the southern border as a refugee or

574
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: just as a migrant is probably the stupidest way to

575
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 3: come into the United States if you are trying to,

576
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: you know, do a terrorist attack. Because like border patrol,

577
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 3: despite what they like to say, they are not overwhelmed.

578
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: You know, if you divide the number of people coming

579
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 3: over by the number of agents, it's far less than

580
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 3: one migrant per agent per day, So they have a

581
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 3: pretty good lock on the border. There's not a lot

582
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 3: of people getting through undetected. Those who turn themselves in,

583
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 3: which is the vast majority of people, they are subject

584
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 3: to all of the same surveillance and security checks I

585
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 3: just mentioned. They get their DNA sample taken at the border,

586
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: they give all of their information, and then they are

587
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 3: not let out of custody if they trigger any kind

588
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 3: of security flag and it can just be like they're

589
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: from Yemen, they're from Afhanistan. Sometimes they're just detained because

590
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 3: of that. But any of those if any of those

591
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: checks are triggered, they're detained for the duration of proceedings.

592
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: They never see that outside of a prison. So this

593
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 3: idea that terrorists are sneaking over the border is frankly stupid.

594
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 3: I think, you know, if we think back to nine

595
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: to eleven, I think they all came on visas.

596
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like the system makes it so much easier

597
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: for someone who is wealthy and white and otherwise privileged

598
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: to come to this country. That like it's ridiculous to

599
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: think that a state actor like Russia wouldn't take advantage

600
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: of that rather than yeah, yeah, attempting to walk someone

601
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: through the border where they're about to like encounter some

602
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: of the most intense state surveillance that can happen to

603
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: a person.

604
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 3: And you start off in a prison. So, like, why

605
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 3: would you do that? Lave it any sense? Yeah, it

606
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: doesn't make any sense. I'm sure there's like, you know,

607
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 3: some people who have ties to foreign intelligence. Sure, I

608
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 3: mean it could happen, but it's like, so the number

609
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: is so vanancially small and I think another important thing

610
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 3: to know is when people are processed, they have an

611
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: obligation to attend an immigration court hearing. And when I

612
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 3: looked at the statistics for Russian asylum seekers in particular,

613
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 3: because I've seen a lot of this rhetoric of like

614
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 3: Russia spies over the border, so ninety eight point five

615
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: percent of them show up to their immigration court hearings.

616
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 3: Are you going to do that if you're a spy,

617
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 3: You're going to subject yourself to another round of security

618
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 3: checks and you know, spill your entire asylum story, subject

619
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 3: yourself to cross examination. No you're not. Yeah, I don't know.

620
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: People have watched that film, the TV series The Americans

621
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: a little too much losing their minds. Okay, So I think, yeah,

622
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 2: it's really important to also point out, like when we're

623
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: talking about the potential for bad actors are yeah, like sure,

624
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: maybe there's someone who's come who's done something bad, or

625
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: maybe there's someone who comes who will do something bad.

626
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that everyone else who came is in

627
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: any way complicit in that, Like we haven't given them

628
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: another way to come here. It's not like they had

629
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: to take the bad guy route because they chose to

630
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 2: like you, No one would be picking up their children

631
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: and walking across the desert and then spending sometimes up

632
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: to a week in camps which are currently freezing at night,

633
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: sometimes with you know, like a blanket or like a

634
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: tent or it. Maybe it wouldn't shelter if they're lucky.

635
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: No one will be doing that if there was an

636
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 2: easier option. And it's ludicrostic like claim that these people's

637
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 2: asylum claims or the fact that they should be welcoming

638
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: here is in any way impacted by the actions of

639
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: somebody else who might have taken the same.

640
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean the other thing too, is just because

641
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 3: the border is still closed off by policies that restrict

642
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 3: access to asylum, it has super charged the strength of

643
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 3: criminal groups that bring people to the border. And I

644
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 3: will say that they are spreading a lot of misinformation.

645
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 3: You know. They use this reporting from the right wing

646
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 3: calling the border open to advertise their services, and they

647
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: might very well tell people that it's a lot easier

648
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: than it actually is, and that they have an easier

649
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 3: chance to get asylum than they actually do. I mean,

650
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 3: I don't discount the power of misinformation, but those I

651
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 3: have seen over the past six seven years, especially since

652
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 3: the Trump administration really tried to close off access to asylum,

653
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 3: I've seen those groups grow in power. I've seen the

654
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: price that people pay to cross the border grow both

655
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 3: financially and just in the amount of suffering that they

656
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 3: have to endure. So when we talk about border security

657
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: and national security, I would argue that border restrictions actually

658
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 3: make us much less safe because you know, criminal groups

659
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: now completely control the border, Whereas you know, a decade ago,

660
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 3: even a person who just wanted to cross the border

661
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 3: on their own could do so. You know, if they

662
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: knew the way, they could just try to cross. And

663
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 3: now if you try to do that without paying the

664
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 3: criminal groups who really control it, you will get be killed.

665
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's happened multiple times in the last few months.

666
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: We'll talk of misleading advertising planes we have sent to

667
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: take short break to hear home with them, and we'll

668
00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: be back in a moment. Okay, we're back. One thing

669
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: that I want to talk about that we haven't got

670
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: too yet is that, like the the failed government response

671
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: isn't just federal or well, it's both federal and local.

672
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: But I wanted to talk a little bit about this

673
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 2: that the federal funding that San Diego County got that

674
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 2: it reallocated towards a quote unquote welcome center. Right, So yeah,

675
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: we're both very familiar with the welcome center. It got

676
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: three million dollars initially and then got it got three

677
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 2: million more because apparently none of us are doing anything

678
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: useful anywhere else and don't merit any help? And do

679
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: you want to talk first of all about just like

680
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: what the conditions are like You've just come out of

681
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: being detained in the desert from maybe up to a week.

682
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: It's cold, We feed you, but like we wish we

683
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: could feed you more and better. You don't have a

684
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 2: change of clothes. Right then you've been detained. You could

685
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: have been detained for one night, two nights, several more nights,

686
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: and then you hit this welcome center. So can you, like,

687
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: I can think how we would like to treat people

688
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: who have just been through all that, but can you

689
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: explain to us how people are treated when they when

690
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: they arrive at a welcome center.

691
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 3: Well, it's they're not arriving there. They're picked up from

692
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: detention by the nonprofit that's administering the welcome center. In

693
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 3: what looked like prison buses, right, I mean it's I

694
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 3: can't I can't imagine that someone getting on one of

695
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 3: those buses understands that they're not just at another stage

696
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 3: of detention, right. So they get to this fenced in

697
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 3: abandoned school, they are lined up, and they're forced to

698
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: give all of their information to the nonprofit workers. They are,

699
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: you know, mostly not spent. I think maybe like forty

700
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 3: percent Spanish speakers shore the exact percentage, but there's people

701
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 3: from all over the world. There's no paid interpreters on site.

702
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: And so you know, they do have this little script

703
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 3: that they read in the beginning saying like you're not detained,

704
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 3: like this is a welcome center whatever. But they run

705
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 3: it through Google Translate and then play the Google Translate

706
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 3: like over the megaphone, which it's like have you ever

707
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: tried to like understand someone screaming something into a megaphone.

708
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 3: Never mind the fact that it's like Mandarin Google Translate,

709
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 3: like people, I guarantee you they still think they're in prison.

710
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 3: And so then they go they have to sometimes wait

711
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 3: for hours in this intake line. Only then they're given

712
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 3: the ticket to eat the like probably some of the

713
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 3: worst food I've ever seen, like, you know, people are

714
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 3: not eating a lot when they're at the opening attention sites,

715
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: and then they're really not eating a lot when they're

716
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: in attention and I've seen people refuse the food there

717
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: because it's that bad. And it's like they're standing in

718
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 3: a line for hours, not having and probably not having slept,

719
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 3: and god knows how long, ye you know, having this

720
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 3: garbled message played to them over a megaphone. So anyway,

721
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: they get through all that, and then they're told they

722
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 3: have to make their own way, you know, to their sponsor,

723
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 3: and those who don't have the money to do so

724
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 3: are provided with I think it's up to maybe two

725
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 3: or three days of shelter or a hotel room before

726
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 3: they are shipped off to another part of the country.

727
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 3: And so the goal of the welcome center is to

728
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 3: get rid of the migrants, to get them elsewhere. So,

729
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 3: you know, ninety five percent to ninety nine percent do

730
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 3: have a place to go. They don't all have the

731
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 3: means to get there, but most of them do, almost

732
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 3: all have the means to get there. The other few,

733
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 3: like the other you know, one to five percent, they

734
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 3: need help. They need you know, maybe a place to

735
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,479
Speaker 3: stay for a couple of months, they need help getting

736
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 3: a work permit, they might need help, you know, applying

737
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 3: for asylum. Instead of investing in the resources that we

738
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: need locally to help them, they're shipped off to New York,

739
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: Chicago or other places that have invested in those resources.

740
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: And that's really the same thing Greg Abbott was doing

741
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 3: from Texas. But you know, we're just putting a nicer

742
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: We call it a welcome sentence. Yeah, yeah, somewhere better.

743
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

744
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: And the Welcome Center, like we could go deeper into

745
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: its funding, but I think it's fair to say that,

746
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 2: like it's for one thing, it's doing things that CBP

747
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: should do right, like a transport specifically.

748
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 3: Transport specifically, but also like this idea of doing an

749
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 3: intake with every single person who comes through there is

750
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: such a waste of money because it's like it's infantilizing.

751
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 3: These people have traveled across the world. You think they

752
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 3: can't get to the airport on their own. Yeah, you know,

753
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: it doesn't focus resources on that, you know, one to

754
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: five percent of people who really do need help. It

755
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 3: wastes resources on people who really don't. They need Wi Fi,

756
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: they a phone charger, Yeah, and maybe like a hard email.

757
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 3: You know, they're getting the Wi Fi and the phone charger,

758
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 3: which is not provided by the organization that receives six

759
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 3: million dollars. It's provided by one of the few organizations,

760
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 3: including my own, who are there providing services without county

761
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: funding because we didn't want to be associated with this debacle.

762
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. And another thing you do is family reunification there, right,

763
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: you guys are helping take care of that.

764
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

765
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 2: Again, I think people aren't aware that families need to

766
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: be reunified, but they're still very much separated when they're

767
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: in detention.

768
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 3: Well, they're separated at open air detention sites, they're separated

769
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 3: in detention. We've documented since September. I think it's over

770
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 3: eleven hundred families now that have been separated. Almost half

771
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 3: of them are spousal separations, but a lot of times,

772
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 3: when you know, wife and husband are separated, the kids

773
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: are with one spouse or another, so you know, technically

774
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: it's a separation of a child. We see a lot

775
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 3: of separations of like eighteen year old children from the

776
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 3: rest of their families where they're sent to detention facilities

777
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 3: and the rest of the families released. So there's all

778
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: you know, grandma from grandkids or mes a nephew, siblings separations.

779
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 3: I mean it's all traumatic, right, it's just not the

780
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 3: particular brand of Trump separation that people seem to care.

781
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 2: About, right yeah, yeah, they quote unquote kids in cages, right.

782
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:26,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh they're still in the cage.

783
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, or the dad, but not

784
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 2: both sometimes God. Yeah, it's it's equally it's equally tragic,

785
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 2: but it's more tragic that somehow we've normalized it. And

786
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: like with this immigration stuff, only seems to be able

787
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 2: to ratchet one way and it's further towards like insane

788
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 2: degrees of cruelty, right, like, yeah, the fact that Biden

789
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 2: is doing what Trump did doesn't mean that Trump will

790
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: do what Biden did if Trump is elected again, right,

791
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: like edit, somehow they will find a way to make

792
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: this even worse.

793
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, And I think the open air detention sites

794
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 3: are preview of what we'll see. You know, it's this

795
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: idea of it being normal to deny people food, water, shelter,

796
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 3: and medical care because they, you know, committed this awful

797
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 3: crime of crossing the border, which is like a misdemeanor.

798
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 3: By the way, and it's not even supposed to be

799
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 3: illegal if you're seeking the asylum. The Refugee Convention actually

800
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 3: prohibits criminal prosecution of folks who cross borders irregularly to

801
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 3: seek asylum, and by and large, the US attorneys, at

802
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 3: least during the Biden administration, have stuck to that. You know,

803
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 3: if you're arrested for crossing irregularly and you then apply

804
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 3: for asylum, generally the charges will be dropped. So but

805
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 3: like this invader rhetoric right, like, oh, they're invading our

806
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: country and whatever, the white replacement theory, all of that

807
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 3: is really driving this really normalization of the inhumane treatment

808
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 3: of border crossers.

809
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, the point you made about that, Yeah, you can

810
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: cross between ports of entry and then claim asylum. And

811
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 2: it's one that seems to be completely missing from the discussion.

812
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: Like I've seen countless times I've seen that like misrepresented

813
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: in other articles, and it's.

814
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 3: In almost every single one.

815
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really disappointed, Like I have very little respect

816
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 2: left to lose for other people who work, Like especially

817
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: folks who wish to report on the border without visiting

818
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 2: the border, are just like, what are you sparing yourself

819
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: to trauma of seeing little children staying outside because like

820
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 2: their trauma is much greater than yours, you know, and

821
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: the things that they're going away from are much greater

822
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,720
Speaker 2: than any trauma you're going to take on. I understand

823
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: it's not very nice, but like we should phrase up

824
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: to the not very nice things so that country does well.

825
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 3: You're also members of Congress to legislate on the border

826
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 3: or trade away the rights of asylum seekers without ever

827
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 3: having met any of them. And those who do come

828
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 3: to the border just go on the border patrol tour

829
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 3: and don't actually talk to the migrants, and so that's

830
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 3: even worse, you know. But yeah, I agree, like this

831
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 3: idea that they're illegal is completely wrong. They're in illegal process.

832
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 3: They're not prosecuted for illegal entry by and large, you know,

833
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 3: unmust they've tried multiple times, and even then if they

834
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 3: pass a credible fear interview, a lot of times those

835
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 3: criminal charges are dropped. And so they're not illegal. This

836
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,760
Speaker 3: is a legal process. It's a legal way to access

837
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 3: that process, especially when the ports of entry have been

838
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 3: closed off to them.

839
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think they've done to enter the US

840
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: or get any part of their journey disqualifies them from

841
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 2: asylum as you say, it makes it like a quote

842
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: unquote illegal which is just kind of loaded language anyway.

843
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, they've taken every step to take to make

844
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 2: a legal asylum claim, and lots of them will be

845
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: like extremely aware of having done that, like not wanting to, Like,

846
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: if people wanted to walk out of the they open

847
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: their attention sites, they could that they're not quote unquote detained, right,

848
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 2: but like people are so cautious that they don't want

849
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 2: to do anything that might imperil their asylum.

850
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's really sad because they already have by

851
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 3: crossing the border between ports of entry. That's what Biden's

852
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 3: asylum ban addresses. Yeah, and so they're sort of coming

853
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: from a defensive posture with respect to their eligibility for

854
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 3: asylum by virtue of having done that. But the criminal

855
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 3: groups that are organizing their transport tell them that that's

856
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: the legal way. And people who are coming into open

857
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 3: air detention sites believe they are following a legal process,

858
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 3: which you know they are to a certain extent, but

859
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 3: there's definitely legal consequences for having access the system that way.

860
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, even though like, yeah, many of these people,

861
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 2: like I have sat with dozens of people, maybe hundreds

862
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 2: of people, as they've explained to me, the amount of

863
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 2: time CBP one crashed on their phone, their attempts to

864
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: go to the US embassy in a city that might

865
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: not be safe for them, or to like transit through it.

866
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 2: You know, look at a regime that wants them dead.

867
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: You know, hundreds of Kurdish people have shared with me

868
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: that they've tried to get visas for the US and failed,

869
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: and they've tried every other option before trying this one.

870
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think most people have, most people have.

871
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 2: No one would do this. You know. It's not fun.

872
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: It's not fun at all.

873
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 3: No.

874
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: The last thing I wanted you to explain, Erica, is

875
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: people are placed when they come through this whole system

876
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,439
Speaker 2: right in a defensive they make a defensive asylum claim.

877
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 2: Can you explain what that is and what the difference

878
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: between affirmative and defensive asylum for people, because again, it's

879
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: a lot of reporting I've seen it, this is missing.

880
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 3: Yeah. So if I came to the US on a

881
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 3: visa and then decided I wanted to apply for asylum,

882
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 3: I would be applying affirmatively. So that means that I've

883
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 3: never been apprehended by immigration. I've never been placed in

884
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 3: any kind of removal or deportation proceeding. Removal is just

885
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 3: like the legal term for deportation. And so when you

886
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 3: apply affirmatively, your initial screening is before an asylum officer.

887
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 3: It's a sensibly a non adversarial hearing, but I've been

888
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 3: I've been in a lot of them, and that's not

889
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 3: always the case. But you know, you don't have like

890
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 3: a like a government attorney cross examining you. It's just

891
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 3: it's just the asylum officer who's supposed to be nice,

892
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 3: but they're not always. And then if you win, if

893
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 3: they approve your case, that's the end. You just get

894
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 3: asylum and then you know that's a path to citizenship.

895
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 3: If you are not approved, then you would be placed

896
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,439
Speaker 3: in removal proceedings where you could present your asylum case

897
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 3: before an immigration judge. And so defensive is when you

898
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 3: are apprehended or you turn yourself in at the border,

899
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 3: you are placed in removal proceedings. So you don't get

900
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 3: that first asylum interview before the officer. You just go

901
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 3: straight to immigration court. And so when you're presenting your

902
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 3: case in immigration court, there's a government attorney who's actively

903
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 3: trying to deport you. I think most of the judges

904
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 3: used to be government attorneys, and so many times it

905
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 3: feels like they're also trying to deport you. And the

906
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 3: success of your claim is pretty much completely dependent on

907
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 3: where it is adjudicated. So and you know less also

908
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 3: to have to do with your nationality. So if you

909
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 3: are applying for asylum before the Atlanta Immigration Court, pretty

910
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 3: much ninety nine percent of those cases are denied, and

911
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 3: there's some judges who've denied one hundred perc of cases,

912
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 3: and that's true for a lot of jurisdictions within the Southeast.

913
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 3: And then you know you have your friendlier jurisdictions like

914
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: San Francisco. San Diego is not too bad actually, but

915
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 3: you know you have other courts where you have a

916
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 3: better chance depending on the judge. But it really depends

917
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 3: on the location the judge that you happen to get.

918
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 3: You could present the same exact claim in different cities

919
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 3: before different judges and have a completely different outcome.

920
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no objective criteria and people know this too,

921
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 2: but unfortunately, like to get yourself to San Francisco and

922
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: then survive there, just as an example, right until your

923
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: quote day comes up, it's unfathomably expensive. Like for me,

924
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 2: I couldn't afford to get myself to San Francisco and

925
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: make rent there, and it's barely possble in San Diego.

926
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 3: So yeah, and you don't You don't qualify for work

927
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 3: authorization until I think you can apply five months after

928
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 3: you've submitted your application for asylum, and in many cases

929
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 3: you don't get your initial court date for months or

930
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 3: years after you've entered, mostly months. But people don't understand

931
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 3: that you can lodge your asylum application before your first

932
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 3: court date to get that clock going on your work authorization.

933
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 3: And so people I see very commonly are waiting at

934
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 3: least a year to get work authorization. And so you know,

935
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 3: not only would you have to survive in a high

936
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 3: cost of living city, but without the legal ability to work.

937
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: So it's really hard for people when they first come

938
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 3: to the United States. And you know, unlike what is

939
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 3: sprouted many times in the right wing media space, there

940
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 3: are no benefits available to someone who's seeking asylum. They're

941
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 3: not getting any kind of government money.

942
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a remember what you have to

943
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: be it's like a burden of the state or something.

944
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 2: Thing that you have to ward. I can't remember when

945
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 2: you public charge, so like on top of all this,

946
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 2: people aren't aware of that. It's very Uh, it's sad.

947
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 2: Like like I've had a bunch of people I've interviewed

948
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 2: or just befriended when I've been helping out in the combat,

949
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 2: who have been like, hey, like how do I find work? Like, well,

950
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,479
Speaker 2: like do you know do you have? They they didn't

951
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 2: realize they wouldn't be permitted to work, like and even

952
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 2: like we spoke to him wilst the other day he

953
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 2: has offers of work right from his old employer, but

954
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: they he can't take them up on that because as

955
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 2: you say, he's he's got to sit doing nothing for

956
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 2: five months until he's legally allowed to work. Which is

957
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,720
Speaker 2: it doesn't help anyone, right, it doesn't doesn't help migrant,

958
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: it doesn't help us. It just forces people to work

959
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: for cash or for for lower wage jobs, which leaves

960
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 2: him right for abuse sort of for non payment. And like,

961
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,240
Speaker 2: it's a system that does doesn't really work for anyone.

962
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 2: They have no rights as workers rightly. They can also

963
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 2: be end up doing very dangerous work and we've seen

964
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 2: that a lot.

965
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 3: Well, I think something too. That's important to note is

966
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 3: that there's obviously all these push factors towards micro but

967
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 3: a huge pull factor is the employment market in the

968
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 3: United States. So we have you know, hundreds of thousands

969
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 3: of open jobs, and you know, people have to leave

970
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 3: their country, but they also choose to go to a

971
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 3: certain place. So many of them, like I said, almost

972
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 3: all of them have some kind of tie to the

973
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 3: United States, like family or friends. You can host them,

974
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 3: but they're not going to come here if they can't

975
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 3: get a job. And so it's important to note that

976
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 3: as well. And I think what you're saying about the

977
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 3: exploitation of migrants in the labor industry is really important

978
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 3: because I think that, you know, that's part of why

979
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 3: there are so many restrictions, because when you do not

980
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 3: provide a path to citizenship, you create a permanent underclass

981
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 3: that is very vulnerable to exploitation. And I think that's

982
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 3: by design.

983
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it it works very well, right, like an increases

984
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 2: for people who are unconcerned with the well being about

985
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 2: the humans, let get it, create creates a constant pool

986
00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 2: of cheap and disposable labor.

987
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, because if they're invaders, you know, and they start

988
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 3: to act up and demand their rights. It's very easy

989
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: politically to just get rid of them.

990
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 2: And that some of the same people who are deploying

991
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: this closed the border rhetoric, I'm sure also exactly good

992
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 2: advantage of that documented labor. And Okay, if people want

993
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 2: to help, they want to donate, they want to learn

994
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 2: more about this, is there a place where they can

995
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 2: find you or ALOLO on the internet.

996
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 3: So they can go to our website, which is al

997
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 3: A l O t r O l A d O

998
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 3: dot org to donate. There's a donate button there on

999
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 3: the homepage, or you can put dot org slash donate.

1000
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 3: We are a underscore org on all of the social

1001
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 3: media platforms. And if folks have people in their lives

1002
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 3: who are migrants who want more information about the asylum system,

1003
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 3: I would recommend going to our TikTok page, which as

1004
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 3: multiple videos in over a dozen languages, including many indigenous

1005
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 3: languages on the asylum process. And then for you know,

1006
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 3: those of us who are wanting to learn more, our

1007
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 3: Instagram pages is more public facing.

1008
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 2: Perfect. Yeah, that's great. You guys have some excellent merch

1009
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 2: as well. You're still selling your chin t shirts.

1010
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we have hope. We have tope bags and

1011
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 3: mugs too.

1012
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, just like NPR but cooler.

1013
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 3: Well yeah, I think we can customize the messaging too.

1014
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 3: You know, I can think of a few that probably

1015
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 3: aren't appropriate to stay a polite company, But if folks

1016
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 3: have suggestions for what they'd like to see in our merch,

1017
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 3: we'd be more than happy to take those suggestions on

1018
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 3: our infolat alet dot org email perfect. Great.

1019
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure you'll be flooded with ideas.

1020
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Thank you so much for having me.

1021
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

1022
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from.

1023
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or

1024
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 1: check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1025
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for

1026
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: It could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com

1027
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.