1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 2: Most people in our community have no idea what's been 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: going on with Danny. For years, we've brushed off the 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: questions about what he is doing, where he is, He's 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: in school, he's finding his way. My parents were resolute 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 2: about preserving Danny's privacy. This is no one's business. We 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: don't want people to look at Danny that way. It'll 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 2: get better, and we don't want it to be held 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 2: against him. Over time, people stopped asking. Years from now, 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 2: it will be impossible not to question the real purpose 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 2: our secrecy served. Who was protecting whom and why? Of course, 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: we were worried about how people saw Danny. But were 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: we keeping the 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: Secret for ourselves too? 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: In choosing silence? Were we also protecting our family from 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: the stigma of mental illness? Were we hiding from our 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 2: own shame and grief that a member of our quote 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: unquote good family was so broken and lost? And what 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: was the cost of our silence to Danny? What was 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: it like for him to know that his life was 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: a secret. 22 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 3: That's Julie Fingersh, journalist and author of the recent memoir Stay, 23 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 3: A Story of family, love and other traumas. Julie's is 24 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 3: a story of not one, but two happy families. But 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 3: coming from a happy family does not protect us from loss, 26 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 3: from grief, from trauma so intense that it becomes buried 27 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 3: within us. All we can do is attempt to make 28 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 3: meaning out of what life hands us. And by the way, 29 00:01:48,160 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 3: that's a lot. I'm Dani Shapiro, and this is family secrets, 30 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 3: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 3: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 32 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: I grew up in Prarie Village, Kansas, in a Jewish 33 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 2: community within a very non Jewish community, and. 34 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: The landscape, the real landscape for me, was 35 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 2: Just one of love and community and safety. My parents 36 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 2: had and have a wonderful marriage. My dad was a lawyer, 37 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: he worked very hard. My mom was a homemaker if 38 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: they called it back then. And I was the middle 39 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: child with an older brother, Paul, and a younger brother, Danny. 40 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: It was a much simpler life than our kids have today. 41 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 2: It was just homework and play and family time and 42 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: friends time, and a very idyllic life in most ways. 43 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: Paul's three years older than me, and Danny's was three 44 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: years younger. Than me, and so I think part of 45 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: what became so much part of the story was that 46 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: Paul was the cool kid who was off doing his 47 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: cool things with his cool friends. And Danny and I 48 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: were very much a team and partners in play and 49 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: always spent a lot of time together. Danny was the 50 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: beautiful boy. He was shy. He had what I always 51 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: think of as planet white eyes. He had these big 52 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: brown eyes and bushy brown hair, and his physicality is 53 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: so vivid. 54 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: In my mind. 55 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: He was always tan, he always was very lean, and he. 56 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: Was just very sweet. He was very sweet, and we 57 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: used to call him the noticer. He just noticed everything. 58 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: We spent a lot of unstructured time together. We would 59 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: often on weekends come together and be like what. 60 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: Should we do? 61 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: And we'd rip up little pieces of paper and write 62 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 2: things like all the different ideas like lemonade stand and 63 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: picnic in the park, and riding our bikes around the 64 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: neighborhood and judging the houses of deciding which ones we'd want. 65 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: To live in. 66 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: We were really close and I think an anchor for 67 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: each other. You know, have school and you go out 68 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: into the world into school, and even though it was 69 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 2: a small school and it was a Jewish day school actually, 70 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: and reported to be very community oriented. There's still just 71 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: the usual dynamics of classes and hierarchies and all that, 72 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 2: and it was like always for me. I think about 73 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 2: how coming home opening my front door. I can still 74 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: hear the sound of my front door closing, and it 75 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 2: was like you were home. It was a sanctuary and 76 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: Danny was a part of that sanctuary for me. 77 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: We just could be totally ourselves. 78 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 2: I think as a kid, you're not really aware so 79 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: much of all the dynamics the social stratus. 80 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: But I was always very clear that. 81 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 2: My family was part of a very strong and loving 82 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 2: and safe community. My dad came from very modest beginnings 83 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 2: and he became a very accomplished lawyer, and what I 84 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 2: can remember, I would go to his office, his law 85 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,559 Speaker 2: office on weekends often, and one summer I worked there. 86 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: And he was just very revered in our community and 87 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 2: still is is just known to have a lot of integrity. 88 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: He's just very honest and very straight up. And my 89 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 2: mom is beautiful. She's beautiful, and she's dynamic, and she's 90 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: a magnet for people. So in my mind, my parents 91 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: were like giants in our community and whenever we were out, 92 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: they would just be approached and it was just clear 93 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 2: they were beloved. My family was really, I think, one 94 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: of the families that was in the center of that 95 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: Jewish community in lots of different ways. 96 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: When Julie is a senior in high school, Danny is 97 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 3: a freshman, their older brother, Paul is a junior in college. 98 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 3: What's happening to Danny around this time? Begins? As Julie 99 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: calls it, like a whisper. 100 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: It was very subtle. As I remember it, everything changed 101 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: when he changed schools and we all had gone to 102 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: a Jewish day school and then we all transferred to 103 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: a private high school. We were very much minorities in 104 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: terms of our Judaism, and we really were from a 105 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: different world. So we really were kind of worked out 106 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: of a cocoon and thrown into this very status oriented, 107 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: wealthy elitist place where socially it was really rough. And 108 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: I would say it wasn't that rough for Paul. It 109 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: was rough for me, and I think it was really 110 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: rough for Danny. So what I recall the way it 111 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: started was he started at the school and it was 112 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: hard to distinguish. I think we all would assume that's 113 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: a hard transition to make, but it was almost like 114 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: he wasn't able to make it. 115 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: He became with. 116 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 2: John and all the things that he and I used 117 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: to do together. We would often after school, we'd come 118 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 2: together and just go take the dogs for a walk 119 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: or hang out in the library. He didn't want to 120 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: do those things anymore. And so I think at the 121 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: time we thought, well, it's the new school, and then 122 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: he's been not a lescent. This is just a hard time, 123 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: and I certainly had a hard time, and I think 124 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: then he just gradually retreated. 125 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the old sort of frog and boiling water 126 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 3: in a way exactly. 127 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: It was absolutely that, And I think that's an apt 128 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: description because for so long we did not understand the 129 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: line between adolescens and something much bigger. 130 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 3: After she graduates from high school, Julie goes off to 131 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 3: Swarsmore College, following in the footsteps of her older brother Paul. 132 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: Now Danny is the only child at home. Julie doesn't 133 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: share her worries about Danny with her new college friends, 134 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 3: not because it's a secret, but because it's private. The 135 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 3: men and women in Julie's family have different ways of 136 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 3: dealing with the crisis. Julie and her mom do talk 137 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 3: about it all the time, keeping it in the family. 138 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: Julie's dad and Paul tend to keep their feelings to themselves. 139 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: This split screen existence in Julie's early college life exacts 140 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 3: a cost, and Julie begins binge eating. 141 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 2: What's interesting is that at the time, we would never 142 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: have considered it a secret. I think I was really 143 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: raised in a culture of privacy, so that on one hand, 144 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 2: we were very as a family, were outgoing and warm 145 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: and embracing. But then there's a line. There's a line, 146 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: and I think that when Danny started to retreat and 147 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: really started to struggle, it was really intuitive to us 148 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: that it just wasn't anyone's business and why would we 149 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: share that, Like he wouldn't want that to be shared. 150 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: And I think it's again, it's the frog in the 151 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: boiling water. It's like along the way, it went from 152 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: privacy to secrecy. 153 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: And I almost don't. 154 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: Know, I can't pinpoint when that happened, but I think 155 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: it was probably when things went from just retreating to 156 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 2: he was having a really hard time and things started 157 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: happening and the binge eating. At the time, I had no, 158 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: I made no connection between that and what was going 159 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: on in home at all. And then in terms of 160 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 2: the gender and the family dynamics, I think it was 161 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: an extension of who we are as people. My mom 162 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: and I are loquacious and we are big processors, and 163 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: we spoke to each other about it primarily because we 164 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: were preserving the family's privacy, and my dad and my 165 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: brother they aren't big talkers about struggle at all, and 166 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: so it was this natural rift between how we coped differently. 167 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: And then in time, I think. 168 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: The secrets and the privacy starts to do its insidious work. 169 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 3: Danny's condition worsens. There are some good periods, bringing the 170 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 3: family a modicum of hope, but the stretches of stability 171 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 3: are rare, and in the wake of this hope comes 172 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: fear and defeat. Danny decides to visit Israel, a huge 173 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 3: relief to the family that he's up for such a trip, 174 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 3: but it's also laced with dread. They all hold their breath, 175 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 3: wondering is this going to help? Is he going to 176 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 3: be okay? 177 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: And he isn't. 178 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 3: He comes home and starts exhibiting new levels of out 179 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 3: of control destructiveness, smashing windows violent episodes. These episodes signal 180 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 3: to the family that maybe his condition will require some 181 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: sort of medical intervention. He does get medically assessed, but 182 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 3: receives no diagnosis, aren't sure how to diagnose him. And 183 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 3: then graduation comes along. High school graduation typically a joyous affair, 184 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 3: but for Danny and his family, not so much. 185 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: He walked across the stage with his gown unzipped, unlike 186 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: anybody else, and with kind of the frozen look on 187 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 2: his face. It was like this sense of foreboding of 188 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: the future. Graduation is supposed to be this moment where 189 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: you're there, you did it, You're ready to jump into 190 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: the rest of your wonderful life that you've been working for. 191 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: And the way that ended, where when we went back, 192 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: when they filed off stage and all the parents and 193 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: families got together to await the arrival of the graduates, 194 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: and I'll just never forget that sense of dread and 195 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 2: almost denial. 196 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: Is he really not coming? 197 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 2: Is he really And just that failing of he didn't 198 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: come and what did that mean? 199 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: What did that mean? Where did he go? And what's 200 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: going to happen next? 201 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: It was this feeling of the hope that he was 202 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: able to do these things, and then there would be 203 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: like a dive that was deeper than where it had started. 204 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: And it just was like this cycle of hope in 205 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 2: psyching ourselves up, like he's going to be okay, and 206 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 2: he went to Israel, but he'd made it through his graduation, 207 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 2: and then when he didn't show up, there was just 208 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 2: such a sense of I. 209 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: Think fear, honestly fear. 210 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: I think we all were just afraid of what that 211 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: meant for all of us and for him, mostly in 212 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: his future. 213 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 3: And then that fear is just exacerbated dramatically when he 214 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: gets into an altercation with your father. Your father characteristically 215 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 3: loses his temper and out of just parental fear and 216 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 3: huge worry for Danny, and Danny grabs a knife. 217 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 2: It was surreal that could happen in our kitchen, which 218 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: was the center of our home. My mom is an 219 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: amazing cook. We all spent so much of our time 220 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: in our childhoods around the family table, have bought holidays, 221 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: doing arts and crafts together as kids, doing our homework, 222 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: and the fact that we could be in that same 223 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: space and that could happen. 224 00:14:52,480 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 225 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: Danny continues to spiral and is admitted to Meninger Psychiatric Hospital. Julie, 226 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 3: in the meantime, is trying to reconcile her two realities, 227 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 3: her brother's deteriorating health and her own bright future. She 228 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 3: graduates from college and gets a job as an editorial 229 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 3: assistant at BusinessWeek. She moves to New York City, meets 230 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: the man who will become her husband, and locks into 231 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: the beginnings of a rich and dynamic life, a burgeoning 232 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 3: career as a journalist, a wonderful partner, and yet the 233 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 3: other reality of her brother's condition is something that continues 234 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 3: to plague her. 235 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 2: On one hand, it was this double life of and 236 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: in New York City, I'm living a dream. I'm going 237 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: to be a journalist. I really just I just had 238 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: that sort of naive idea of I'm just going to 239 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: do it and I'm going to be successful, and it's 240 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: that was the dream before going into it. And at 241 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 2: the same time this was happening with Danny, and so 242 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: there was just that double life. And then there was 243 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: the double life of my life in front of the 244 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: people I was living among and with, and then my 245 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: life behind the scenes on the phone all the time 246 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: with my mom and Danny and my dad and Paul too. 247 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: That it was like there were these two double lives. 248 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: And in some ways it was a refuge to be 249 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: able to be out in the world and not have 250 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: to have the people in my life know what was 251 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: going on behind. There was a relief in that, but 252 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 2: there was a cost to it too, and in many ways, 253 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 2: like the artist part, I think for siblings, when there's 254 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 2: a sibling that struggles, is that it's just impossible to 255 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: believe that your life going well is not making their 256 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: life worse. It was just impossible to not draw that line. 257 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 2: And so in the back of my mind that pulled 258 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 2: and pulled at me, and. 259 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: It was like every success. 260 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: I can remember my first National byline, I don't even 261 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: know that. 262 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: I want to tell Danny it was like he was 263 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: in a mental. 264 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 3: Hospital, and I want to say too, you include in 265 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: your book some of Danny's notes and letters to you, 266 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 3: and he was like, so your cheerleader and so seemingly 267 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 3: without a malicious or envious bone in his body. 268 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: You're right. 269 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: So this wasn't coming from the kind of sibling thing 270 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 3: where it might be like, oh, you're getting all the 271 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 3: good stuff and look at me. It was the opposite 272 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 3: of that, when there's that terrible cat of if this 273 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 3: is going to be good for me, then somehow that 274 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 3: means it's going to be. 275 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: Bad for you. 276 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 2: I think that the phrase the terrible calculus is so 277 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 2: apt because in some ways to me, it was even 278 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: more painful that he never led on that he was jealous, 279 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: or that he looked at my life with envy, and 280 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: that was such a reflection of him and how good 281 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 2: he was and how sweet he was, And that just 282 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: made it worse to me because I knew, or I 283 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: thought I knew that. How could it not The contrast 284 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: between our lives was just getting greater and greater. 285 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 3: After a year's stay with no improvement at Menninger, Danny's 286 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: doctors decided to try ECT electroconvulsive therapy, and scary as 287 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 3: this is, there is again that hope that maybe this 288 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 3: will be the thing that helps. Unfortunately it doesn't. Danny's 289 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 3: deterioration accelerates. Now it's May fifteenth, nineteen ninety six. Julie 290 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 3: and Dave are married and living in New York. They 291 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 3: don't have kids yet. The phone rings at one in 292 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: the morning and it's Julie's brother Paul. 293 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: At this point, Danny had been struggling since he was 294 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 2: fourteen and now he was twenty seven. And so at 295 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 2: the time, I was on the phone with a friend 296 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: of mine late and it was call waiting back then, 297 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 2: and I saw it was my brother's number, and I thought, 298 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: oh my god. I mean, it was like I just 299 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 2: there was nothing else that could have been. And I 300 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: think that's one of those moments in your life where 301 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: it's like a before and after and you just go 302 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: into this state of unreality. And I clicked over and 303 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: my brother told me, just like that, Danny's going to die. 304 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 2: And I can just remember people talk about out a 305 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 2: body experience, and that is how it was, and this 306 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: feeling of my mind refused to hold it, even though 307 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: in some ways it was like your nightmare coming true 308 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 2: and all those years of imagining it and like suddenly 309 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: you're standing in it. 310 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: And yeah. 311 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 2: We talked for a few minutes, and I asked where 312 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 2: my parents, like if they knew what had happened, And 313 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 2: what I remember is just that he said. 314 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: You got to convince them not to go there. 315 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: At that time, he was at a halfway house and 316 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 2: he actually was doing really well. He had a job 317 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: and he was really optimistic and things were looking up. 318 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 2: And he came home one day and greeted the guys 319 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: that he lived with and said, I in it hanging 320 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 2: to go upstairs and take a shower before dinner. And 321 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 2: he went up and what the fireman said was, you know, 322 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: he shared a bathroom and there was an aerosol can 323 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 2: Deodora and Danny had always I mean, it was sort 324 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 2: of poetic because he had always played with fire. He'd 325 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: always been fascinated with that. It was something like we 326 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: did as kids. 327 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: We would use. 328 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: Magnifying glasses in the sun and burn sticks with it. 329 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 2: And then later on there was that Saint Elmo's Fire, 330 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 2: that movie that you may remember where Rob Low sprays 331 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: aerosol and then lights it. 332 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: And so what happened was Danny was playing with. 333 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: It and he lit it with a lighter and the 334 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 2: cant exploded and because it was. 335 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: A spray, it just exploded on him. 336 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: And what the fireman said is that they didn't think 337 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 2: it was a suicide. They didn't think he could have 338 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: known that was going to happen. But I think that 339 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 2: for us there was some comfort in that but I 340 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: think there was also or I'll speak for myself, not 341 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 2: my rest of my family. It was a feeling of like, 342 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: I know that in some recess of his mind, and 343 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: particularly since he had attempted taking his life before that, 344 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 2: in some recess of his mind, that he was capable 345 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: of that and certainly capable of tempting it, and I 346 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: think had attempted it, and that day it was a calculation. 347 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: I think he couldn't have known. But he was taken 348 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: to the hospital and he said to the guys that 349 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 2: were his housemates were out there with them, and he 350 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 2: was still conscious, and he said, oh, hey, we'll see 351 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: you guys later. 352 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: He didn't think he was going to die. 353 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: And I think that once he got to the hospital 354 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: it was clear that the Barns were too severe to 355 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: save him. 356 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 3: Described to me the landscape of the family that you 357 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 3: and Dave made together in those years following this staggering loss. 358 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 2: So we had moved, we'd moved from Boston to San Francisco. 359 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: Dave was doing a fellowship to be a doctor, a specialist, 360 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: and it was supposed to be for a year, and 361 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: Danny had died three years before, and it was before 362 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 2: our daughter was born that he died, so our daughter Jesse. 363 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: When we moved it was a year and a half, 364 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 2: and I would say, for me the landscape, the feeling 365 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 2: I had was I came to California giddy, Yes, so 366 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: happy to be somewhere new, and happy to be somewhere 367 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: exotic and foreign and beautiful. Most of all, happy to 368 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: move to a place where no one knew about Danny 369 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: or what had happened. And it was an amazing relief 370 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: and joy to start our family, to grow our family there. 371 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: And it's crazy because when I line my childhood up 372 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: with our kids, it's so much the same. It was, 373 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: though idyllic. We just had so much fun. Our son 374 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: Sam was born three years later. We ended up staying. 375 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: In part it was supposed to be for a year, 376 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: but I think we ended up staying because life was 377 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: so joyous there, and I'm sure no small measure, because 378 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: it was light without history, without other family there as 379 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 2: a reminder or as just a network. It was just 380 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 2: like we were reinventing ourselves. But it was so much 381 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 2: the same in the sense of what a loving and happy, 382 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 2: an idyllic childhood our kids had and we had as 383 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: new parents and young parents. 384 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: That was a landscape. 385 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 4: It was just a happy, safe, revelatory, light, beautiful life 386 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 4: we created as a young family. 387 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 3: Though Julie relishes in this revelatory and beautiful family life, 388 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 3: she also runs up against feelings of despair, wondering if 389 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 3: she did the right thing by choosing to stay home 390 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 3: when her kids were born. She writes, I've been spearheading 391 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 3: community projects, meeting with CEOs, sharing an events stage with 392 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 3: Secretary of State Colon Powell, fielding questions from the press. 393 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 3: And now now I sat cross legged in a circle 394 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 3: of new mothers, singing, ring around the rosie, with a 395 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 3: drooling baby on my lap. Now I was Jesse's mom, 396 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: walking around with little cascades of dry vomit down my shirt. 397 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: It was clear before I was many things. Executive director, writer, 398 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 3: strategic partner, program developer, fundraiser, community leader. Now I was 399 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 3: one thing. I lived in, a seven day a week 400 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 3: world of sing songy, high pitched tones. Conversations were limited 401 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 3: to baby talk, days of all the same thing caregiving. 402 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 3: No matter how I sliced it or how much I 403 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 3: loved being with Jesse, a stay at home mom was 404 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 3: a fraught designation. 405 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 2: It was a big decision for me to stay at 406 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 2: home because I had always envisioned myself I. 407 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: Say, worshiped at the altered productivity. 408 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 2: That was what I longed to value and achievement, and 409 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: that is also a very Jewish thing, and so the 410 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: idea of giving that up, it was like, then, who 411 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 2: am I going to be. 412 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: Like besides a mom? 413 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: And I had this one seminal conversation with my brother 414 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: who basically said, you have your whole life to work, 415 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 2: and you have the privilege of being able to raise 416 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: your kids. 417 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: Why would you say no to that? You could always 418 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: go back to work. 419 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: And I think at the time I remember this sense 420 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: of he's right. On a logistical level, he's right. It 421 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: was also really hard for me to justify staying working 422 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,239 Speaker 2: as a writer. At that time when I left, I 423 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 2: was running a nonprofit agency, but I assumed I would 424 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: go back to being a writer at some point and 425 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: the money I made it would cover a fraction of 426 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: what childcare was going to be. So it was to 427 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 2: me it felt like, if I stay at work, that 428 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 2: is a pure indulgence that is for my own development 429 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: and self actualization, and how can I put that in 430 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: front of our children's welfare, and so that is what 431 00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: drove the decision. 432 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: And I think at the beginning it was such a joy. 433 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 2: It was like this guilty relief of, Oh my gosh, 434 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 2: I'm Jesse's a baby, Jesse's a toddler. Life is so 435 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 2: crystal clear that days were structured, the priorities were clear. 436 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 2: You feed them, you burp them, you poop them, you 437 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 2: go to the playground. It was a relief, and I 438 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 2: think what happened was it became fraught the older the 439 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 2: kids got, the more I immersed myself in that California world, 440 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 2: which was a lot of moms who had given up 441 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: their careers to be home with their kids. It was 442 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: just hard to imagine going back. But I think inside 443 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 2: there was always this voice that was saying, what are 444 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: you doing? Why are you giving everything up? 445 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: Who was I? 446 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: What happened to that crazy, like ambitiously obsessed person that 447 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: I had been for the first thirty years in my life. 448 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: So then fast forward, Jesse was a senior in high 449 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: school and Sam was a freshman in high school, and 450 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 2: Jess started feeling this incredibly intense feeling of dread and 451 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: anxiety and grief. For the longest time, I thought well, 452 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 2: this is just this is what it is. It's like 453 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: any parent of a child leaving the nest is going 454 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: to be sad, but it felt like so much. 455 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: More than that. 456 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: And the day that it came to a head for 457 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: me was Jesse was a senior in high school. Like 458 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: I was saying, is like she was headed for the stars. 459 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: At that age. She had not gone through the Ringers. Socially, 460 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: she had really made her way with a lot of ease. 461 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: There had been terrible things that had happened at her 462 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 2: school outside of her, but in terms of who she 463 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: was and how she did. Sue was storing and one 464 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: day she came in to our house and I was 465 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 2: cooking chicken soup, and she tossed her wallet on top of. 466 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: My onions and said, guess who called? And I said who? 467 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: She said, the Secret Service. 468 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: And at that time it was actually that summer, the 469 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: summer after her senior year, the summer right before she 470 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: was supposed to go to college, she was interning for 471 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 2: the Hillary Clinton campaign. 472 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: So she'd come home from her internship and said that. 473 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 2: And I said, what Secret Service? Yeah, So it turns 474 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 2: out she said she was one of two interns chosen 475 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 2: to be part of Hillary's motorcade to take her around 476 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 2: to Tim Cook's house and all big wigs to fundraise, 477 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 2: and I was so proud and I just was looked 478 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: at her and she was shining and so happy, and. 479 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: I was so proud. 480 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,719 Speaker 2: And then it was like I can so vividly feel 481 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 2: that underneath there was like this crest, like this wave 482 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: of envy. 483 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: That I had for her. 484 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 2: And as a parent, you're allowed to feel a lot 485 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 2: of things, but you're definitely not allowed to feel jealous 486 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 2: of your own kid. This is not something we talk about. 487 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: We can stay jokingly I want to come back as 488 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 2: my kid in my next life. Okay, that's one thing, 489 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 2: but you're not really allowed to say I am jealous 490 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: of my child. And that is what I was feeling. 491 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: And that's when I knew something was very wrong, as 492 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 2: that feeling kept coming up more and more as it 493 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 2: like the march of time towards one shoes leaving for college. 494 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: So that was the stage for our leaving and me feeling. 495 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 2: Very like tortured and guilty and not able to talk 496 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: about I mean talk about secrets. 497 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 3: Now. 498 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: That was a secret. 499 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: I told my one of my best friends, my running partner, 500 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 2: and I think that's it for a long time, not Dave. 501 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: No, I don't think I did. 502 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: I think it was a long time before I told 503 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: Dave because I was ashamed. 504 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: I was horrified. 505 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: This is like the antithesis, and not to mention like, 506 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 2: I am so close to my daughter. We were one 507 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: of the mother daughters who people looked at as people 508 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: would always say, oh my god, you and Jesse. 509 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: You're so lucky, so lucky. 510 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: How she talks to you, and how you guys have 511 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: such a close relationship, which I always felt so then 512 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: to feel this feeling of envy. 513 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: For her was just so awful. 514 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. Jesse goes off to Northwestern, but 515 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 3: before she does, she turns to Julie one day and asks, mom, 516 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 3: how are we going to do this? They're so close, 517 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 3: so used to knowing the daily minutia of each other's lives, 518 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 3: how literally, Jesse wonders, how are they going to navigate 519 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 3: being so far apart phone calls, texts, FaceTime. This is 520 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 3: always a huge moment between parents and their kids going 521 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 3: off to college, but in the case of Jesse and Julie, 522 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 3: it looms particularly large. 523 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 2: The weekend we got to Northwestern for her orientation. She 524 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: started having stomach pain and having to go to the 525 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: bathroom a lot, and it got dramatically worse within a 526 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 2: couple of days, to the point where on moving day, 527 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 2: which is supposed to be this very classic iconic day 528 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: of the first day of the rest of your life, 529 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 2: this new phase, she had to stay in the hotel 530 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 2: because she just couldn't get out of bed, and Dave 531 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: and I and Sam helped to set up her room 532 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: and did it on her own. 533 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: And then what happened is. 534 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 2: That the day before we left her there, they have 535 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 2: this ceremony called the March through the Arch and all 536 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 2: the kids walk through this and we saw her and 537 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: it was so clear that she was in pain, but 538 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: the health services had said it was gastronritis and that 539 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 2: was going on. And then we met at the field 540 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 2: and her fists were bald up, and I just remember 541 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 2: thinking like, oh my god, are we really going to 542 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 2: leave her like this? 543 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: We're really leaving her like this? 544 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: And we just gently said, Jess, are you sure you 545 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 2: don't want. 546 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 4: Us to stay for a couple extra days just to 547 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 4: help you. 548 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: No, I don't want you to just go and fine, 549 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 2: and so we did. And it's funny because, honestly, like 550 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 2: until this moment, it's such a bizarre parallel that never 551 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: occurred to me that just in the way that it 552 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 2: was Danny's graduation and this thing happened that was so 553 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 2: it was like foreboding. It was like a foreshadowing of 554 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 2: what was going to happen in the rest of his life. 555 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 2: It was the same thing on that orientation day. It 556 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 2: was such an emblematic moment standing in a hot field 557 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 2: and seeing that she was sick and feeling should we 558 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: stay or should we go? And the tension with adult 559 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: children that all they want is to be independent in 560 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: that moment, and you, as a parent, your job is 561 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 2: to support that. 562 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: And yet when your child is clearly. 563 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 2: Something has gone wrong, your instinct is you can't leave them. 564 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: And it's like there's no playbook for that. When they're sick, 565 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: you know, when they're fine, you just know you leave. 566 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 2: Doesn't matter that they're sad, doesn't matter that you're sad. 567 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 2: But when they're sick, do you leave? 568 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:37,399 Speaker 1: But we did. 569 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 3: It's so interesting to me that to me those parallels, 570 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 3: whether or not that was something that you were conscious of, 571 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 3: is that there was this kind of weird foreshadowing parallel. 572 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 3: You weren't conscious of it, but it was there, and 573 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 3: in a way like its own secret, it was present. 574 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 2: I am so freaked out by that discovery right now. 575 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 2: I can't believe I never saw that. 576 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 3: It's a secret you were keeping from yourself, because the 577 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 3: only reason why I know it is because you wrote it, 578 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 3: and you wrote it in a way that allowed me 579 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 3: to see it. 580 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: It's so weird. 581 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 3: Just a week after arriving at Northwestern, Jesse calls her 582 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 3: mom with an update. Things have worsened. 583 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 2: She called me and she said there was blood in 584 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 2: the toilet, and so I went back, I got on 585 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 2: the planet, went to the hospital, and she was diagnosed 586 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: with ulterative colitis and they put her on a medication. 587 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 2: You seem to respond to it, and then that was 588 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 2: it for a while. We went back to our roles of. 589 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: Okay, you're independent, and wow, look at you. 590 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 2: You made it through your first hurdle, and we made 591 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 2: it through your first hurdle, and now we're going to 592 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 2: let you live your life. And Jesse was very clear 593 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: she didn't really want us to be asking her about 594 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: it all the time. She wanted to focus on her 595 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: new life. But it was really interesting though that when 596 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: she was in the hospital. When I think about secrets 597 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 2: and I think about how different this. 598 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: Current family of mine handled. 599 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 2: The situation differently than we did with Danny, is that 600 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 2: I can remember her being in the hospital and she 601 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 2: was missing her first week of college, and these people 602 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 2: didn't know her. 603 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: This was a whole new world. 604 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 2: And so listen to her talking on the phone to 605 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 2: herra and to her new roommate and to the new 606 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 2: people she met before orientations started. 607 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: And the way she was already. 608 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: Integrating this new part of her life and being droll 609 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 2: about it with a sense of humor, like, oh, yeah, 610 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 2: I just figured my first week of college, I just 611 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 2: might as well start off in the hospital. And this 612 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 2: feeling of not really wanting to show or feel or 613 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 2: own or tell what was like the severity of what 614 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 2: had just happened and what was ahead. 615 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's another beautiful passage from your book that I 616 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 3: just want to read here, because from this point on, 617 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 3: as the months go by and you're not talking about 618 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 3: it out of respecting her independence and young adulthood, and 619 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 3: she's got under control, her condition worsens takes a real turn, 620 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 3: and there's this passage that you wrote, which is for 621 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 3: months now, she'd carried out our family legacy of pursuing, prevailing, achieving, 622 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 3: but the family legacy had failed to win this one, 623 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,240 Speaker 3: and a new teacher, the teacher of illness, was about 624 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 3: to prevail. 625 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly true. 626 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 3: Perhaps partly in preparation for this next chapter in her life, 627 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 3: Julia signed up for a writing retreat in Montana. She's 628 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 3: thinking that it might be just what she needs, a push, 629 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 3: a deadline, a community of other writers to help her 630 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 3: get started again. 631 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: And so I signed up. 632 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 2: My plan was, We're going to drop Jess off at 633 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 2: school and a week later, I'm going to start over. 634 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to start a new part of my life 635 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 2: and try to reconnect with the writer I used to be. 636 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 1: And the irony of Jesse got thick. 637 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 2: It was the week before I was supposed to go 638 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: on that retreat, and I can remember feeling I was 639 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 2: there in the hospital with her. The retreat was supposed 640 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 2: to start four days later, and I thought, wow, I 641 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 2: obviously I'm not going to go if she needs me here, 642 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 2: And I remember that thinking for the first time, it 643 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 2: was the first time I connected the story of Danny 644 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 2: with Jesse and how the irony and that the inner 645 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 2: conflict of my primary feeling was fear about Jesse and 646 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 2: what would happen, and wanting to save her and wanting 647 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 2: to make everything okay, and then this tiny voice in 648 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 2: the back of my mind going, but what about the 649 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 2: rest of your life? Are you putting that side? 650 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 1: Again? 651 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 2: I wasn't even conscious of it. It really didn't become 652 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,879 Speaker 2: conscious till much later, But I can see looking back 653 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 2: that that got put in motion, and she responded to 654 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 2: that medication and she was ready to go back to school. 655 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 2: And I went to that retreat a couple days late, 656 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 2: and then that was where that next part of my 657 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,439 Speaker 2: journey began, of just like the part of my life 658 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,399 Speaker 2: that was just for me, which I hadn't really touched 659 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 2: since I was in my twenties, you know. 660 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 3: And it's interesting, Julie, like, it's so easily could have 661 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 3: been otherwise, the terrible calculus of basically, I don't get 662 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 3: to have this, I don't get to have this. I'm 663 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 3: not going to get to have my own identity that's 664 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 3: just mine in a way, the parallels are really extraordinary. 665 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 2: And I think the worst part is that I wasn't 666 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 2: really conscious when Danny was sick or when Jesse got of. 667 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 2: I didn't have the fully developed thought, Oh, I guess 668 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 2: I'm never gonna have something on my own. All I 669 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 2: felt was fear and dread for these two people I loved, 670 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 2: and then this nagging feeling of guilt that I was 671 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,800 Speaker 2: even thinking about myself. It was that same thing with Danny, 672 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 2: like how dare I think about my little writing career 673 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 2: when he's failing it? And with Jesse it was like 674 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 2: who cares about like my little writing retreat? But there 675 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 2: is that tiny little part of you that wants that 676 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 2: voice of don't forget me. 677 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 3: A few months after the first incident of Jesse's bleeding, 678 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 3: it seems the medication is working and that everything's under control. 679 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 3: But then Julian Dave get another call. Jesse's ulcerative colitis 680 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 3: has worsened again. She may be facing major surgery. That 681 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 3: possibility quickly turns into an inevitability as Jesse undergoes an 682 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 3: emergency procedure to remove her colon. This is a shocking development, 683 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 3: destabilizing for anyone, but all the more so for a young, 684 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 3: incredibly vital person. Jesse will then undergo two more reconstructive 685 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 3: surgeries over time in order to allow her to have 686 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 3: a quote unquote normal life. Jesse comes through these surgeries 687 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 3: with flying colors. She is incredibly resilient and determined. She 688 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 3: takes some time off from Northwestern to navigate her recovery, 689 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 3: and the family is together once again. They even get 690 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 3: a puppy that evergreen harbinger of joy and playfulness. But 691 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 3: Julie has a lot of self examination to do. There 692 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 3: has been so much trauma, trauma on top of trauma 693 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 3: past seeping into the present. She begins a course of 694 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 3: therapy called e MDR that has come up before on 695 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 3: this podcast. It stands for eye movement, Desensitization and reprocessing. 696 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 3: One of the hallmarks of this therapy is that it 697 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 3: allows the patient access to memory with no narrative. It's 698 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 3: not about connecting the dots. It creates the possibility of 699 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 3: a real breakthrough, and this happens for Julie. The dots 700 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 3: connect tell me what Jesse had known about her uncle, 701 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 3: who she never knew. 702 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 2: Jesse and Sam both knew I had a brother. They 703 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 2: knew Danny's name, and seeing lots of pictures and heard 704 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 2: lots of stories about him. But what they knew was 705 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 2: that he died in an accident, and that's really what 706 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 2: they knew. We never talked about depression, We never talked 707 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 2: about mental illness. And when I think about the architecture 708 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 2: of family secrets and what drives it, what drives you 709 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 2: to build them, and what drives you to have this 710 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 2: engine behind them, the whole concept of a family secret, 711 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 2: in some ways I recoil it that because it almost 712 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 2: feels as if you really understood the implies patience. But 713 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 2: for us, it was like, I didn't want my kids 714 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 2: to know what happened because it was horrible, it was traumatic, 715 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 2: and why they were kids? Why do they have to 716 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 2: know that? Why do they have to be burdened? Why 717 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 2: do they have to be scared to know that my brother, 718 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 2: that this happened to someone so close to them. But 719 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 2: I think what happened was this secrecy came to roost. 720 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 2: And I think it's so interesting because Jesse in this 721 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 2: story really became a teacher to me because she with 722 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 2: her illness, she made a choice early on that she 723 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 2: was not going to keep it a total secret, partially 724 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 2: just because she physically couldn't. So you can't tell she's sick, 725 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,399 Speaker 2: but if you're close enough to her, you'll know by 726 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 2: her behaviors that she needs certain accommodations. But I think 727 00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 2: that she taught me that it was just damaging. I 728 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 2: was damaging to hide it from my kids. It was 729 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 2: hard to know when they'd be ready to hear it. 730 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 2: But I think when the moment came where we talked 731 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 2: about her illness and she was saying, mom, please, it 732 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 2: makes everything worse when you and dad are constantly looking 733 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 2: for the solution and for the next big thing and 734 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,400 Speaker 2: it's all behind this wall. It adds this burden, and 735 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 2: just let me have my illness, let me figure it 736 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 2: out myself. I think for me understanding the cost of 737 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 2: family secrets and understanding the cost of what happens to 738 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 2: us when we keep them, and how we end up 739 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,399 Speaker 2: editing ourselves out of our own life in a certain way, 740 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 2: it really came to roost for me during this time 741 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 2: with Jesse when she very courageously. 742 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:03,800 Speaker 1: Did tell people. 743 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 2: And one of the big moments in my life was 744 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:14,800 Speaker 2: being asked to speak at our high holiday services about something, 745 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 2: and I made the decision right then. I made the 746 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 2: decision that I was going to talk about Danny to 747 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 2: a community that I had been in. 748 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: For twenty five years, and. 749 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 2: Maybe three or four or five people knew I even 750 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 2: had a brother, And going back. 751 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 1: To earlier in the story, like the giddy. 752 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,760 Speaker 2: Thing, it was like no one knew, no one knew, 753 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 2: And on that day I did tell it, and what 754 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 2: happened afterwards was so instructive, because what you hear anytime 755 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 2: there's a story like this, anytime someone really tells the truth, 756 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,840 Speaker 2: they find out from everyone around them, me too, that 757 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:53,399 Speaker 2: they too. 758 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: There were all the people. 759 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 2: Who were coming and saying, oh my god, thank you 760 00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 2: for sharing your story. 761 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: We had no idea. We can't believe that would be you. 762 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 2: In the same way that like, oh, the perfect Hay family, 763 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 2: how could that had been in your past? But it 764 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 2: was also in the release in telling, like making it, 765 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,799 Speaker 2: like breaking through that secret and just making it information 766 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 2: about the whole of me and the whole of Jesse. 767 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 2: It was like the power of the secret evaporated. It's 768 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 2: been really one of the biggest lessons of my life. 769 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:35,240 Speaker 2: How privacy turns into secrecy, and that secrecy and privacy 770 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 2: turns into isolation and loneliness, and what has happened to 771 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 2: all of us since we have come forward with call 772 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 2: them secrets or breaking through the privacy or whatever, is 773 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,879 Speaker 2: that we are much more whole people. We don't have 774 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,719 Speaker 2: to hide anymore. And we also found out that it 775 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,279 Speaker 2: turns out not only does no one hold it against you, 776 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 2: but it's like that vulnerability and honesty is the fastest 777 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 2: path to connection. Like spose how we are all the same, 778 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 2: that we all do have so much of the same pain. 779 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 3: Here's Julie reading one last passage from her memoir Stay. 780 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,360 Speaker 2: I was finally coming to understand that our birthright is this. 781 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,799 Speaker 2: We are entitled to our own lives. No matter what 782 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 2: happens to those we love. We are entitled and we 783 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 2: don't have to be anything. 784 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:46,879 Speaker 1: Other than who we are. 785 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 2: When the people we love struggle, we can love them 786 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 2: and we can try our best to help them, but 787 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 2: we cannot save them. It is enough to learn how 788 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 2: to save ourselves. 789 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 3: Family Secret is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Zakoor is the 790 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 3: story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. If 791 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,120 Speaker 3: you have a family Secret you'd like to share, please 792 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 3: leave us a voicemail and your story could appear on 793 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,960 Speaker 3: an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight eight 794 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,400 Speaker 3: Secret Zero. That's the number zero. You can also find 795 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 3: me on Instagram at daniwriter and if you'd like to 796 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,000 Speaker 3: know more about the story that inspired this podcast, check 797 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 3: out my memoir Inheritance. 798 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 799 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,840 Speaker 2: or Everett you listen to your favorite shows