1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I have a story about 4 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: my mother to share to kick off this episode about tinkles, 5 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: the portmanteau of cath and ankle. So when a listener 6 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: wrote us about doing an episode on kinkles, I wanted 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: to immediately because I remembered this moment in my childhood, 8 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: crystallized in my brain for some reason of my dear mother, 9 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: well meaning, I'm sure telling me apropos of nothing. Kristen, 10 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: be glad you've got slender ankles like me. Oh. I 11 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: went to school with a girl I think her name 12 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: was Mary, and she had the fattest ankles, and I 13 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: just remember thinking I had no idea, like for the 14 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: first time I looked down and actually saw my ankles, 15 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: And ever since then, I've kind of never stopped looking 16 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: at them, terrified of the day that what if I 17 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: go home and Mom looks down and I've got Mary's ankles. 18 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: Oh No, I never knew that that was the thing 19 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: until my mother told me, huh yeah. I feel like 20 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: while the whole word cankle is sort of a new 21 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: invention relatively, I feel like that attitude about slender ankles 22 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: versus stocky ankles and what that means supposedly and how 23 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: it affects your attractiveness. I feel like that's been around 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: for quite a while. Yeah, and so we're gonna dig 25 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: into cankles and where this idea came from that in 26 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: order to have a fully attractive feminine figure, it involves 27 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: the slender ankle. So arbitrary, right, it does seem so arbitrary, 28 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: and yet women are getting plastic surgery in order to 29 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: achieve that slender ankle. Look. This was a story reported 30 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: on in fall two thousand fourteen from ABC News on 31 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: what they termed the boot bulge of women going under 32 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: the knife so they can fit into their fall boots. 33 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: I yeah. They talked to Matthew Shulman, who's a plastic 34 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: surgeon in New York City, and he said, Oh, it's 35 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: definitely a thing, he said, especially this time of year 36 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: when some women aren't able to wear the boots they want. 37 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: And I mean, I know that some women's calves are 38 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: shaped in such a way that they need a boot 39 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: with a bigger leg opening, But I had not heard 40 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: of this apparent epidemic of humans who uh don't like 41 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: their ankles enough that they're going to pursue plastic surgery. Yeah, 42 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: nor was this the first time that ABC News had 43 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: reported on this plastic surgery trend. In quotes, Um, I mean, 44 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that it's an epidemic proportions, because when 45 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: you talk to these plastic surgeons, they'll usually say, oh, 46 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 1: I get around fifty women in a year coming in 47 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: for it. But it's reported on as if it's an epidemic, 48 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: which only further leads to this question of like, but wow, 49 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: why why are we even talking about it? So the 50 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: first thing we wanted to uncover was how and when 51 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: slender ankles became a feminine beauty standard, because again, so 52 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: it's so far far. It's like at the opposite end 53 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: of of our bodies. Why why worry about them? Well, 54 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: I guess we worry about them now because we wear clothes, 55 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: or we wear a lack of clothes that showcase our 56 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: legs and ankles as opposed to back in the day 57 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: of I mean forever Victorian era, particularly when you're wearing 58 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: these huge dresses with bustles and everything, and so your 59 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: your legs and definitely your ankles are covered. So there 60 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: was almost no there's almost no social etiquette fashion rule 61 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: for what your legs, little on your ankles should look like, 62 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: right because no one saw them, right, So no big deal. Um. 63 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: But it's around the nineteen tins and moving into the 64 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:44,239 Speaker 1: World War One era when hemlines inched above the ankle, 65 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: and so, like you said, Caroline, they're on display for 66 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: the very first time. And um, these hemlines were referred 67 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: to as the new crinoline or war crinoline, and this 68 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: above the ankle hemline was referred to as the new 69 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: crinoline or war crinoline um. And it was brought about 70 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: largely because more women were working due to World War One. 71 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: And of course the hemlines continue to rise through the 72 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: late nineteen twenties with a flapper air, although they would 73 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: then drop down again in the nineteen thirties, but still 74 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: by then the ankle was fully on display. Scandalous. So 75 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, we still haven't hit on exactly why a 76 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 1: slender ankle is the ideal versus you know, why don't 77 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: we value uh stock your ankle or just like every 78 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: ankle is fine the way it is yeah, exactly, Um, 79 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: every ankle is sacred. Well, we looked at this book 80 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: called Ideal Images and Kinsey's Women by June mock Over 81 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: rhin Issh and she talks about the Gibson Girl who 82 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: came to us courtesy of illustrator Charles Dana Gibson. And 83 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: this particular woman had slender ankles wind shown, so she 84 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: when she as she lifted up her dress, she uh 85 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: displayed curvaceous calves that tapered down to a slender ankle. 86 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: And so this was one of the first pop culture 87 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: if you will, uh references to what an ankle maybe 88 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: should look like, right, because the Gibson girl was the 89 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: embodiment of idealized Edwardian beauty that then leading into the 90 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: early twentieth century, and so there every now and then 91 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: she would be shown in her bathing suit. And I 92 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: thought it was interesting to how that shape of the 93 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: shape lee calf leading into the more tapered ankles, sort 94 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: of the inverse of that idealized our glass figure up top. 95 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: And it also is significant that in the nineties as 96 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: legs became far more of a beauty focus because for 97 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: the first time we're really seeing them outside of the house. 98 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: This was also when the more curvaceous matron lee figure 99 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: that was hailed during the Edwardian era was replaced by 100 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: the stick straight, thin ideal of the Flapper era. So 101 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: we were priding ourselves in thinness more than before, and 102 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: that just trickled on down to our ankle. Sure did 103 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: trickle down. But even before the nineties, if you looked 104 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: to nineteen fifteen in the Gazette Times, there was an 105 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: article pinned by a ballerina prima donna Lucrezia Bori, titled 106 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: how to make your ankles really slender and shapely, And 107 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: she writes, or maybe she writes, I don't know, she 108 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: put her name to it, A heavy, shapeless ankle is 109 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: almost a deformity, and no exertion should be spared to 110 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: reduce its size. You can never associate dainty with a 111 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: woman who has large ankles. What so, immediately right out 112 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: of the gate, we have this perception. Well sure, because 113 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: I think it's the same kind of thing that we 114 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: hear about with women's slender wrists. There is this idea 115 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: of slender risks and slender ankles in particular, being associated 116 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: with feminine grace, daintiness, and that word dainty jumps out 117 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: because it does seem like we have this rather bizarre 118 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: association between not only slender ankles but also slender rists 119 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: and this idea of the dainty, graceful woman, particularly at 120 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: this time, which I mean she's kind of becoming more 121 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: of the new woman. But still it's uh, that's those 122 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: are the hallmarks of a woman and apparent isn't it 123 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: too kind of symbolic? And the fact that it's not 124 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: we want more of the the slender um foundation rather 125 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: than like a sturdy, solid foundation. Does it, perhaps, Caroline, 126 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: reflect the changing gender roles of the time. Oh yeah, 127 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: wanting women to take up less space both physically and 128 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: in the political social spheres. Yes, it could be. I 129 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: mean we might be getting a little too deep on it. 130 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: I like where we're going. Yes, well, there are also, 131 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: in addition to these recommended exercises for women to keep 132 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: their ankles slender, which in fact, you can't spot reduce 133 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: the size of your ankles. Ankle exercises, no matter what 134 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: Lucrezia Bori says, will not change the shape of your ankles. 135 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: There were also products to help women achieve this slender 136 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: ankle ideal, including things like ankle course's and that's spelled 137 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: with a K in Kardashian style. And there are also 138 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,719 Speaker 1: shoes designed, such as the foot Saver, which were specifically 139 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:04,599 Speaker 1: designed to uh supposedly keep women's ankles at least appearing 140 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: more slender. But I mean, this is to me, this, 141 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: this is insane to go back and uncover this history 142 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: of ankle slenderizing products because you think of things like 143 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: this as more of a modern you know, panic fueled 144 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: by women's magazines who were out to make everyone feel 145 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: bad about their bodies, you know, indirectly. But but no, 146 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: I mean there are these great but terrible old advertisements 147 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: featuring illustrations of these ankle courses that I'm sure by 148 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: the end of the day your foot would be completely 149 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: black and blue from wearing it. Well, And I mean 150 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: and also too, this was still being these ideas were 151 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: still being perpetuated in in women's magazines, you know, like 152 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: it's uh, It's just what's more astounding is that we're 153 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: getting these same messages today, right, So that leads us 154 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: up to the sword cankle, which when we talk about 155 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 1: cankles today, it is an insulting portmanteau referring to the 156 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: cankle ankle combo, implying that there is no definition between 157 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: the two, essentially from your knee to your foot. It's 158 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: it's relatively shapeless, right, But it actually got to start 159 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: as a different portmanteau that blended the words canker an 160 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: ankle to mean a foot store in a essay by 161 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: sci fi writer Don Webb. Yeah, and we got that 162 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: tidbit from a post by Autumn Whitefield Madronto over at 163 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: her fantastic blog The Beheld, in which she also wanted 164 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: to know where did this cankle thing come from? And 165 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: I was so surprised to learn that the source of 166 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: cankle ladies and gentlemen is none other than a two 167 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: thousand one cinematic masterpiece called Shallow How, Shallow How, starring 168 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: Gwyneth Paltrow, n Fat Suit, Jack Black, and Jason Alexander, 169 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: whose character is a jerk and always fat shaming one 170 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: of Paltrow's character, and he uses cankle to describe quote. 171 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: It's like the calf merged with the foot and cut 172 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: out the middleman, just continuing Jason Alexander's trend of playing 173 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: gross characters. But we can't blame Jason Alexander the person. Well, sure, 174 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: but my mother will because like she cannot watch a 175 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: Jason Alexander movie, TV show, anything after he played the 176 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: Griss character and pretty Woman. So Sally would absolutely blame 177 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: Jason Alexander the person. Yeah, he's definitely has been typecast 178 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: because when I learned that, I immediately thought I cannot 179 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: continue to use a word coined by George Castanza. That's 180 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: how on earth is that possible man who takes his 181 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: shirt off to go to the bathroom? Um? Well, in 182 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: two thousand three, so just two years after Shallow how 183 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: comes out, the word pops up in Glamour magazine, And 184 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: of course if it's in Glamour, it's probably another lady 185 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: magazines by then. Um, but Glamour rights that it's a 186 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: genetic fact. Some women have cankles, thick calflic ankles. And 187 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: so I feel like the sentiment there is a little 188 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: bit better because they're explaining that, hey, this is a 189 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: genetic thing, Like don't you know, this is not like 190 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: you need to do crunches for your feet or whatever 191 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: to get rid of it. It's just something that you 192 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: will deal with. But it's just unfortunate that in the process, 193 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: they really kind of went gung ho, adopting the word cankle. Yeah, 194 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: and automn at the Beheld goes on to describe how 195 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: quote by two thousand six, kinkles had made it into 196 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: Men's Health, Women's Health Newsweek, Skinny Bitch, a small library 197 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: of novels and un noteworthy books, and the weekly World News, 198 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: which wreck amended a magic spell to get rid of them, 199 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: which involved the new moon African violet and visualizing your 200 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: cankles going to a person of your choosing. It doesn't work. 201 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't work. It doesn't work, trust me. And you 202 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: can't get rid of your belly fat that way either, 203 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen. So clearly it didn't take too long 204 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: for cankle to enter its way into our almost everyday vernacular, 205 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: to the point now that this has gone from just 206 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: being considered a genetic fact of like, Okay, some women 207 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: have thicker ankles than others, No big deal, right, not 208 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: so much anymore, because the cankle has been completely pathologized. 209 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: And we're going to talk more about that when we 210 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break. All right, So 211 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: before the break, we were talking about kind of the 212 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: history of where a word cankle came from and where 213 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: we got this concept that the daintier ankle is the 214 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: better ankle. But we should definitely talk about how all 215 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: of those trends and all of those perceptions have led 216 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: us to where we are now, which is a state 217 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: of affairs in which many people, not a ton, but 218 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: many people have started to seek out plastic surgery for 219 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: what they consider to be stocky ankles. And regardless of 220 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: how many women are actually undergoing this plastic surgery, this 221 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: micro liposuction, it's still something that is brought up and 222 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: mentioned in every single news story about it. It says, 223 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: oh God, women are freaking out about their cankles and 224 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: so like bo suction um. And a lot of this 225 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: really started in terms of the broader media coverage in 226 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: two thousand nine when Gold's Gym launched its ankle awareness campaign. 227 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: So funny, right, And that led to all of these 228 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: media outlets being like, oh, cankles, what's going on? Oh 229 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: should you go to the gym? Oh? And ABC Health again, ABC? 230 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: What's does the C in ABC stand for cankle or something? 231 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: Because they're really into this. ABC Health covers this cankle 232 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: awareness campaign from Gold's gym. This ad campaign they had 233 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: and asked whether you know ladies or cankles the new 234 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: muffintop and even to the point that there article their 235 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: report on cankles. The lead was, while you were busy 236 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: worrying about muffin topping over the waistband of your jeans 237 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: or cottage cheese on your thighs, you should have been 238 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: fretting over the shapeliness of your ankles. Cankles or less 239 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: than smelt ankles are the thunder thighs of the new millennium. 240 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: What is wrong with them? What is wrong with them 241 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: that they are not only talking about cankles, fine, talk 242 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: about cankles. We're talking about cankles, but they're literally saying 243 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: you should have been fretting over the shapeliness of your ankles. Well, 244 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: and they also just went pretty much down the female 245 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: body like muffin top, oh, cellulite, oh, cankles, thunder thighs too, 246 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: just pulling the thunder thighs out of nowhere. I mean, 247 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: ABC Health is doing. We talked on the podcast a 248 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: lot about the policing of women's bodies. This is like 249 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: a insanely crystal clear version example of policing women's this 250 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: is the swat team. They let out the swat team 251 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: on that um. And then in two thousand eleven, Marie 252 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: Claire published an article on the cankle surgery trend trend 253 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: in quotes because it does lead to the question of 254 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: how many people does it take to form a trend 255 00:17:54,960 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: um because there aren't hard numbers on precisely how many 256 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: people are getting this LiPo section. Um. But this Maria 257 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: Claire article was really a first person report of this 258 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: woman who was dissatisfied with her ankles her whole life 259 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: and it really bothered her. And apparently a side note 260 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: she I hope this was made up, talked about how 261 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: her boyfriend would always make doodles of her with ugly 262 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: ankles um, which, honey, I don't think you need lipos section, 263 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But it's really just her 264 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: journey to getting this surgery. Yeah. And so the whole 265 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: deal with the surgery that she went through is that 266 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: if you're the best candidate for it, you can't have 267 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: ankles that are too muscly or bones that are too 268 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: big to get in the way. And it's all about 269 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: getting to the fat pads in that region of the leg. 270 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: The thing is it's gonna run you four to six 271 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: thousand dollars plus an extra seven hundred fifty bucks for 272 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: an anesthesiologist. And okay, so let's see you have the money, 273 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: you have the will. Now, as far as recovering from it, 274 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: it's sort of insane. Uh. Two months post surgery, this 275 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: woman still had a lot of swelling and numbness, but 276 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: it can take up to ten months to fully recover 277 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: from this, and she felt like it was worth it. 278 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: She lost an inch off both ankles and she was thrilled. 279 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: Apparently her boyfriend stopped with his rude doodles and that 280 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: was then the happy ending to her story. And what's 281 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: really interesting though, is the fact that with this procedure, 282 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: it's referred to as a micro liposuction because the plastic 283 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: surgeon will use a candida or tube that's roughly the 284 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: diameter of a ballpoint pin. And I want to emphasize 285 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: that just to get across how how how specific this 286 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: spot reduction is. Paying six thousand plus dollar lars to 287 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: have someone with that tiny of tube just suck out 288 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: some fat. And I don't want to delegitimize people's feelings 289 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: and insecurities about their angles, because we've clearly established that 290 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: we have been pointing at these things for a very 291 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: long time and saying, hey, if you don't have the 292 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: specific if you don't have the genetics to give you 293 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: the specific kind of ankle, then you should really feel unladylike. 294 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: But going to surgery is quite extreme. Yeah, And like 295 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: Kristen said, we we don't have exact stats on this 296 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: particular micro LiPo section. LiPo in general is the most 297 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: common plastic surgery in the US. UM, but plastic surgeons 298 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: definitely aren't in a rush to sort of woo women 299 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: away from getting their ankles done. Um. There was a 300 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen study called Laser Assisted Like Policis for 301 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: Cankle Remodeling It perspective study in thirty patients that looked 302 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: at the procedure, different ways of doing the procedure and 303 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: its success and everything like that. And uh, they used 304 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: a certain language choice, a word choice that I myself 305 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: would not have used and was sort of horrified to 306 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: see it used in this abstract. Well, and it's one 307 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: that noted Prima Donna Lucrezia also used. She did so 308 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: this is this is what this is study. Lucrezia wrote 309 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: her essay in nineteen fifteen, so we're approaching the hundred 310 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: year anniversary of people being jerks about ankles. So in 311 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: this study they write, unesthetic fat cankles where definition between 312 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: the caffeine ankle is impossible, are a frustrating aesthetic deformity deformity. Huh, 313 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: we're still referring to it as a deformity almost one 314 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: years later. Yeah, something that is completely normal and genetic 315 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: is being called a deformity. Yeah, and it And it 316 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: goes on to say that deformity which are exacerbated by 317 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: genetic conditioning and special resistance to diet, and this kind 318 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: of cankle remodeling is a safe and reproducible technique that's 319 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: particularly appreciated by the patient because again this is a 320 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: matter of genetics. You can't diet or exercise the shape 321 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: of your ankles away. Granted, ankle size can fluctuate with obesity. However, 322 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: a lot of times the shape of your ankles are 323 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: just the shape of your ankles that they look how 324 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: they look. And um, really quickly, going back to the 325 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: point of not knowing how many procedures are actually happening 326 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: every year, A lot of times doctors will report that 327 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: they get you know, a few dozen up to you know, say, 328 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: sixty year eighty patients a year. The fact though, that 329 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: it's getting so much news coverage and it's being reported 330 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: on as a trend is only going to send those 331 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: numbers up even more because it pathologizes it even more 332 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: and probably leads more women like me when I was 333 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: probably ten years old, to like look at my ankles 334 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: for the first time and think, oh, are they the 335 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: right shape? What if they are the right shape? Okay, Well, 336 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: so we've talked a lot about the trends in body shaming, 337 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: uh that have led to a lot of women seeking surgery, 338 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: seeking spot exercises for this. But let's let's throw out 339 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: some actual calf ankle region facts, shall we. Yes, First 340 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: and most important is it's not a medical condition. The 341 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: cankle is not a medical condition. Everyone has differently sized ankles, 342 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: largely due to genetics, and so if you do feel 343 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: that you have cankles, it's typically because of the gas 344 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: strock nemeius muscle, which is quote, you know, the belly 345 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: of the calf attaching lower on the leg to the 346 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: soleiest hustle above the achilles tendon, so the calf and 347 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: ankle don't look as differentiated. So it's all about how 348 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: the inside of your body is put together, which relies 349 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: on genetics. For the most part. There are some situations 350 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: in which ankles will swell, such as abnormal water retention, tendonitis, pregnancy, 351 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: achilles tendon injuries. There's also something called uh lepidema, which 352 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: is a rare disorder where you have fat deposits on 353 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: the lower extremities, and again with obesity. However, for the 354 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: most part, it's just how your body is built. Yeah, 355 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: and they talk about so one thing. I know. I 356 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: remember having this conversation in college with a woman who 357 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: longed for the very perky uh calf muscles of a 358 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: woman who was at the bus. She saw this woman 359 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: wearing heels and was like, God, I wish my calves 360 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: look like that is actually addressed in one of these 361 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: things that we read that in the same way that 362 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 1: you can have these muscles attached very low on your 363 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: legs so it looks like you have stocked your ankles, 364 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: you can also have it situated very high so that Okay, yes, 365 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: if you're a runner or you do exercise or whatever, 366 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: you're bound to have a more taught calf muscle that 367 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: is maybe more apparent when you're walking around in heels. 368 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,479 Speaker 1: But part of that is genetic also, and just in 369 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: terms of how your muscles attached to your bones and 370 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: fat deposits, and yeah, imagine that. It's just it's the 371 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: way that you're made well. And that was something that 372 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: that Marie Claire writer Samantha marshall Um mentioned too, Like 373 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: at the beginning of her column about going to get 374 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: this LiPo section, she says, my mother has them, her 375 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: mother had them, and I too, was born with the 376 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: lower legs of a plow horse. So there's this acknowledgement of, well, 377 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: this is how my body is built, but it not 378 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: conforming to this very very specific and rather arbitrary beauty standard. 379 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: And again, like any exercise physiologists you talk to will say, 380 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: you cannot spot reduce them. Because there are still plenty 381 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: of columns and plenty of women's magazines and dubious websites 382 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: about ankle exercises, how to get those slender ankles for 383 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: the summertime to where your gladiator sandals with pride, but 384 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: you can't really do it. And again, it's not a 385 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: medical condition. Although if water retention is a problem, if 386 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: suddenly you have swollen ankles like you haven't had before, 387 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: you probably want to go see your doctor, but you 388 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: probably don't want to go see your plastic surgeon, right, 389 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: And And the way that I personally put things in 390 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: perspective sometimes just about stuff like this, not necessarily just 391 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: about cankles. But I imagine old advertisements from the turn 392 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century and how we laugh those and 393 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: we say, this is so ridiculous. They're saying these terrible 394 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: things to women, and they're they're marketing these awful contraptions 395 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: that are just they're just treating something that doesn't need 396 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: treating with something that looks like a torture device. And 397 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: and I think about that, and then I think about 398 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: women's magazines and other websites and advertisements that we look 399 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: at today and how we just buy them. We we 400 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: fall for them hook line and sinker. And so for 401 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,719 Speaker 1: me personally, that helps keep a lot of the rigamarole 402 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: that comes acrossing women's magazines in perspective. Yeah, I mean, 403 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: because this going back to the you know, the era 404 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: of the Gibson girl, and when we first started seeing 405 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: the ankle peek out from underneath hemlines. This really was 406 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: a made up beauty standard in the sense of, oh, well, 407 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: what do we think about it? What should it look like? 408 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: Because there are other things in terms of feminine beauty 409 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: standards and common markers of attractions, such as symmetry and 410 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: bright red ups and bright white eyes and all of 411 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: those kinds of things that you can, you know, get 412 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: into evolutionary biology of signals of fertility and health and 413 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: all of that to where it can make a little 414 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: bit more sense that we emphasize it so much, but 415 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: not with the ankles. The slender ankles are not a 416 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: sign of fertility or anything like that. So I wonder 417 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: that Caroline, if one thing that would help with all 418 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: of this, um, because I have a feeling that for 419 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: some people listening, they're gonna say ankles, who cares? But 420 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: for the people who feel this this is probably resonating 421 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: big time. Um, do we need to retire cankle? Is that? 422 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: I mean? Would that help? I think there were a 423 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: couple of sources that we looked at, UM, and I 424 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: think Autumn Whitfield Madrona was one of them who called 425 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: for or just called out the fact that we name 426 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: body parts imaginary body parts that we're unhappy with, things 427 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: like muffin top, basic be creating language for something that 428 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: we're unhappy with, which in turn makes us even unhappier 429 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: with it. And so, yeah, I think let's cankle is 430 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: such a mean, ugly word. Whether we're using it about 431 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: another woman or whether we're using it about ourselves, it's mean. 432 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: And so you know, I will I will take the 433 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: pledge to just call it an ankle. Yeah, it's just 434 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: an ankle. Also, to just not talk about other women's 435 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: body parts. Yeah, yeah, that would be helpful. Although for 436 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: one one last fun fact for our listeners before we 437 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: sign off, Caroline, can we mention our favorite nickname for 438 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: a body part that we found I believe from the 439 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: eighteenth century in reference to a large belly that I 440 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: totally want to bring back. The corporation. Wasn't that an 441 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: eighteenth century term? Yeah? It was either eighteenth or nine. 442 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: It was both known as a corporation and alternately a 443 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: bay window. Front of those are glorious down with big corporations. 444 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: I just I'm going to refer to my tummy as 445 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: either a corporation or a bay window. From now on. Well, 446 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: and according to the U. S. Supreme Court, corporations are 447 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: people too. So wat watch watch how you talk about 448 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: about it? Um. So now we want to hear from 449 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: our listeners about this ankle issue. Is this something that 450 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: resonates with you and guys, is this something that you 451 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: pay attention to it all? I feel like anecdotally, I 452 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: have heard guys talk about their calves, like the size 453 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: of calves, Guys who can't build up um much muscle 454 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: mass in their calves because like you talked about Caroline, 455 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: how the muscle attaches um. But I wonder if I 456 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: don't know, do guys do guys have cankles? Let us 457 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: know your thoughts Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com. 458 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: And you can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast 459 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of 460 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: messages to share with you when we come right back 461 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: from a quick break and now back to the show. Well, 462 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: I've got a Facebook message here from Rita and she writes, 463 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: I just listened to your podcast Curly Hair Conundrums, and 464 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: I was really pleased to learn the history behind all 465 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: of the effort I put into my hair. I'm originally 466 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: from Central America, and I suffered from straight discrimination and 467 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: harassment because of my tight, curly hair. As my hair 468 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: texture isn't common there. I never understood why, but all 469 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: of my classmates, friends, and even relatives looked down on 470 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: me because their hair was smooth and mine was not. 471 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: Even my dear grandma felt that way. She was the 472 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: first one to take me to get my first relax 473 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: or so I could look like her. Since that first time, 474 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: I've been spending a small fortune and countless hours making 475 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: my hair straight and smooth. I feel as I've accomplished 476 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: that and currently received compliments on how pretty and well 477 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: groomed my hair is all the time. After listening to 478 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: your podcast, I feel empowered to have curly hair. However, 479 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: societal x difectations worry me because I'm fresh out of 480 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: college looking for a job and having a transition period 481 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: is not a wise idea, but a part of me 482 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: that was the aim of ridicule is now a source 483 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: of empowerment. So thanks Rita, and love your hair and 484 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: all of its cruels. I have a letter here from 485 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: Mackenzie in regards to our entire weird Parental Psychology Week, 486 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: where we talked about Mama's boys and Daddy's girls. She said, 487 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: when you started talking about LGBT parents, I knew I 488 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: had to write in. I grew up at the intersection 489 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: of Daddy's Little Girl and Mackenzie has Two. Mommy's long 490 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: story short, My married Mormon parents got a divorce after 491 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,719 Speaker 1: my mom came out as a lesbian and moved in 492 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: with her long time love. My dad remained in my 493 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: life and I always had a close relationship with him. 494 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,959 Speaker 1: As many of your sources theorized, having a close relationship 495 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: with my dad taught me about how I wanted to 496 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: be treated by men. My dad thought I hung the 497 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: moon and my future husband would too. However, I learned 498 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: what a beautiful relationship looks like from my mom's. They 499 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: have always been crazy for each other and it shows. 500 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: Although they rarely so much as kiss in front of 501 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: their kids, their relationship is obviously so deep. They're equal 502 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: partners in all things. I knew that was the relationship 503 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: I wanted. Cut to today, and I'm engaged to a wonderful, 504 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: fiercely feminist man. He loves me the way my dad 505 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: taught me I should be loved, and we have a 506 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: relationship that mirrors the equality in my mom's relationship. Sorry 507 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: for the long note, I just had to share this 508 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: unique experience. Thanks for all the awesome podcasting. You ladies 509 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: help me make sense of the crazy world around me. 510 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: So thank you for your great letter, Mackenzie, and thanks 511 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how 512 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address, and again, 513 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: you can tweet us at mom stuff, podcasts or messages 514 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: on Facebook and for links to all of our social 515 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, 516 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: including this one with our sources. In case you want 517 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: to learn more about the history of Trinkle's head on 518 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: over to stuff I'm Never Told You dot com for 519 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Isn't how 520 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com