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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's an amazing trending topic right now on Twitter

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Speaker 1: hashtag Trump is dead. And I thought, for just a

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Speaker 1: second while we were talking, is it possible? Could it

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Speaker 1: couldn't have happened that Trump died, And it appears to

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Speaker 1: be Tim Heidecker. He tweeted basically like misinformation about Trump,

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Speaker 1: and I think as like a kind of fun test

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Speaker 1: of Elon Musk's new freedom of speech doctorate or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is that's going on on Twitter. Needless to say,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm both loving it and hating it. On the

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Speaker 1: one hand, I was like, Wow, that'd be so cool

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Speaker 1: if Trump died, because he sucks ass. I mean not

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Speaker 1: that I wish death on anybody, but if someone were

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Speaker 1: to die who was bad, I would obviously be not happy,

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Speaker 1: but not upset, I guess, is what I'm saying. Um,

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Speaker 1: obviously have to respect the dead and Trump, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have to be a dead Trump to me, would

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Speaker 1: get a lot of my respect, Like I'd say, hats

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Speaker 1: off to you, sir for no longer beat alive anyhow.

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Speaker 1: But but on the one hand, I'm like, Wow, what

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Speaker 1: interesting news that I'm not in any way excited about,

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Speaker 1: but funny, funny, situation with Trump dying and then on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, very upset because not upset, I guess,

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Speaker 1: but surprised to learn that perhaps Trump isn't dead and

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Speaker 1: just it's just a whole uh you know, pot pourri.

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Speaker 1: I would say, of of emotions, a real, real mixed

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Speaker 1: emotion situation. But anyhow, let's back up, because we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the now, and I want to talk about the

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Speaker 1: reason now, the back then, now then now from a

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Speaker 1: week ago. So for many months, Elon Musk, the CEO

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Speaker 1: of Tesla Motors, and the CEO of SpaceX, I guess,

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Speaker 1: I want to say, and the CEO of Starlink also,

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Speaker 1: I think. Anyhow, Uh, he's been threatening to buy Twitter.

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Speaker 1: It started a joke on Twitter. Of course, He's like,

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Speaker 1: I should buy Twitter, and all the Elon Musk fanboys

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Speaker 1: were like, yeah, Mr Musk, do it, you know, like

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Speaker 1: bring freedom of speech back to Twitter or whatever because

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Speaker 1: they think their freedom of speech doesn't exist or something

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Speaker 1: on Twitter because they can't say the N word. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna and this is all gonna make sense in a second,

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Speaker 1: but that is the reason why they think there's no

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Speaker 1: freedom of speech on Twitter, is because they want to

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Speaker 1: say the N word, but then they say it and

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Speaker 1: then they get banned or whatever shadow banned or whatever

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Speaker 1: fantasy they think is going on their little intell brains.

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Speaker 1: But anyhow, they're like, Mr Musk, please buy Twitter. We

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Speaker 1: would love that. And then you know, Elon sort of

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Speaker 1: acted like he was going to and then was like, no,

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Speaker 1: he's not gonna do it, and then eventually made some

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Speaker 1: formal offer for Twitter. Then Twitter accepted his offer. Then

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Speaker 1: all these banks were like, hey, we're gonna give you

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Speaker 1: money for Twitter because you're Elon Muskus is a very

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Speaker 1: successful business man. You know what to do with the

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Speaker 1: social network if you got one. And then in the

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Speaker 1: midst of buying Twitter, Elon must was like, I'm not

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Speaker 1: buying Twitter anymore. I just want to make sure that

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Speaker 1: everybody has the lay of the land. Okay. Then at

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Speaker 1: some point he's like, I'm not buying Twitter anymore. It's

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Speaker 1: full of bots. Twitter sucks, It's terrible. Why would I

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Speaker 1: spend forty four billion dollars on that, which is what

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Speaker 1: he was going to pay for it. Then the Twitter

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Speaker 1: people were like, actually, you can't do that. You said

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Speaker 1: you were gonna buy Twitter, and now we have to

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Speaker 1: go to court. We're gonna take you to court in

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Speaker 1: Delaware Chancery Court, which is a court that nobody had

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Speaker 1: ever heard of until a couple of months ago, when

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Speaker 1: Elon Buss was like, I don't want to buy Twitter anymore.

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Speaker 1: They're like, we're gonna take you to Delaware chancer Recort

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna have to buy Twitter. And then, after

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks or a month of getting ready

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Speaker 1: for the big trial for you know, Elon Must back

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Speaker 1: and now to buying Twitter. He's like, oh, okay, I

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Speaker 1: guess I'll buy Twitter because it turns out I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: lose this case. And if I lose it, either gonna

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Speaker 1: have to buy Twitter by force because I signed a

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Speaker 1: contract and that's what happens, or I'm gonna, like have

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Speaker 1: to lay out a bunch of money, like billions and

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Speaker 1: billions of dollars for nothing. So what seemed implausible, impossible, ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: absurd only a few months ago that the guy who

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Speaker 1: runs Tesla, who is like an edge lord on Twitter

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Speaker 1: was going to own Twitter, Elon must successfully completed his

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Speaker 1: purchase of Twitter dot com, also known as the Internet's

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Speaker 1: comments section. So now that I've given you all that background, Lyra,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you're feeling like you understand the situation now

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Speaker 1: better than ever. Yeah, So Elon Mosque owns Twitter. He's

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Speaker 1: owned it for I don't know, a week, less than

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Speaker 1: a week maybe at this point. I mean when you

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Speaker 1: hear this podcast, he'll have owned it for like a

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Speaker 1: week or something. Let's call it that. He started by

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Speaker 1: bringing a sink into the Twitter lobby and then doing

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Speaker 1: a tweet that was like I met Twitter. Let that

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Speaker 1: sink in, which you know, in this grand scheme of jokes,

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Speaker 1: is like one of the worst ones, but you know,

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Speaker 1: a fair game, like you're trying, you know, he had

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Speaker 1: David Fielder write that one for him or whatever, as

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Speaker 1: alleged by a New York Times report that he has

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Speaker 1: like he wants Nathan Fielder to be his friend or something.

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Speaker 1: But if Nathan Fielder gave him that, that sounds like

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Speaker 1: Nathan Fielder prints. That's correct. That Nathan Fielder is doing

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Speaker 1: the ultimate troll where he's like, yeah, Elon, like I

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Speaker 1: like you, like you're cool, Like let me help you out,

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Speaker 1: like I'd love to write some jokes for you, and

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Speaker 1: then he writes like really bad dumb jokes that all

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Speaker 1: people who are legitimately funny, who aren't like an in

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Speaker 1: cell because I don't think in cells can be funny personally.

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Speaker 1: They're like, that's not funny, and Elon Musk is like,

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Speaker 1: this is cool. Nathan Fielder gave it to be. Nathan

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Speaker 1: Fielder was like, I mean, he wouldn't do muahaha or whatever,

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Speaker 1: but you know, in his mind, I would assume something

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Speaker 1: like that. Anyhow. So he arrives at Twitter, he takes

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Speaker 1: over Twitter, He fires the CEO, se fo, the head

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Speaker 1: of like trust and security, who I guess like all

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Speaker 1: the Elon Musk fanboys hate because she's a woman, and

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Speaker 1: like ban Donald Trump. And then uh, immediately, immediately, all

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Speaker 1: of these data tracking services, all these Twitter tracking services,

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Speaker 1: like we've seen a fifteen thousand percent rise rise in

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Speaker 1: the N word being tweeted on Twitter, and we've seen

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Speaker 1: like a three thousand percent rise and I've remect and

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Speaker 1: being mentioned on Twitter. And it's like, immediately these people

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Speaker 1: think that Elon Musk has like pulled the whatever the

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Speaker 1: rip chord of censorship that's been happening on Twitter, and

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Speaker 1: they can talk about all these dumb things and say

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Speaker 1: all these like rude things, and you know, talking about

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Speaker 1: how they hate the Jews and hate black people, and

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Speaker 1: so that starts like just spiraling out of control on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: So then, in addition to you know, the rampant N

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Speaker 1: word use and other horrible things um that spiked, Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk then retweets some bullshit story about Paul Pelo's see

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Speaker 1: some like completely unfounded, zero fact possessing story about you

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Speaker 1: know this Nancy Pelosi essentially kidnapping, an assassination attempt, her

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Speaker 1: husband was beaten with a hammer, And he tweets some

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Speaker 1: story about I believe it's like him having to prostitute

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Speaker 1: there or something, some ridiculous fantasy land Q and on

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Speaker 1: right wing conspiracy that's totally baseless in every way, shape

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Speaker 1: and form, not bounded by any sort of fact whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: And of course, you know rightfully, so there's an enormous

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Speaker 1: amount of backlash. But by the time the backlash is

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Speaker 1: happening and Elon Musk he did delete the tweet, hundreds

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Speaker 1: of millions of people have now seen this like total

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Speaker 1: like misinformation, bullshit. And meanwhile Elon Musk has tweeted some

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Speaker 1: message to advertisers which is like he's not he doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to let this become a hell escape, which obviously

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Speaker 1: isn't true because it's immediately a hell escape. I mean, listen,

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Speaker 1: if you're listening to this, you probably already know this

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Speaker 1: because you're very online. And how much more can I

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Speaker 1: say about this? But in the few days that Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk is own Twitter, it's very obvious that one he

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Speaker 1: doesn't know what to do with it, and that two

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Speaker 1: whatever he does with it is probably gonna be dumb

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Speaker 1: and bad. Uh. And three he'll be blamed for all

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Speaker 1: of it by his critics and loved for it by

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Speaker 1: his fans, which is great. So this sort of culminates

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Speaker 1: with some story that he's gonna start charging people from

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Speaker 1: blue check marks. So the idea that, like, what will

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Speaker 1: it be like when Elon Musk owns Twitter is like

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Speaker 1: quickly coming into focus. Right, people who are bad and

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Speaker 1: stupid and shitty feel emboldened. Elon Musk as a leader

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Speaker 1: is sort of bad and stupid and shitty in a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different ways about information. That's not to say

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Speaker 1: he's not a smart person, Like you can be really

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Speaker 1: smart about certain things but be dumb about others, Like

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Speaker 1: I certainly am that about all sorts of stuff. So

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's sort of like watching the end

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Speaker 1: of Twitter to me in real time. And I've like

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Speaker 1: talked about it and I've written about the end of

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Speaker 1: Twitter and over the years, because I think it's always

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Speaker 1: been a social network that's kind of the most on

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Speaker 1: life support of all of the social networks in the

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Speaker 1: sense that it never really found its stride. Its best

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Speaker 1: moments are kind of the worst moments, right Like for Twitter,

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Speaker 1: the biggest it's ever been is when Donald Trump was

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Speaker 1: tweeting like a maniac on Twitter. I said before, it's

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Speaker 1: like the comments section for all of the content everywhere

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Speaker 1: on the Internet, and that is really what it feels like,

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Speaker 1: you know, if anything, as I look at what is

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Speaker 1: happening with Twitter in this post pandemic world, in this

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Speaker 1: like very online world where everybody feels, I think increasingly

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Speaker 1: this desire for distance from the discourse, like distance from

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Speaker 1: the always online state that we have lived in. I

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Speaker 1: see a kind of logical conclusion in the Twitter purchase

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Speaker 1: in Elon Musk owning it, which is that everything he's

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Speaker 1: done thus far in the short period of time, and

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Speaker 1: I mean everything, has been a signal that the people

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Speaker 1: who really like to use it are going to leave

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Speaker 1: or are going to not enjoy it and want to leave.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, there was a report a week or

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Speaker 1: two ago that Vice had that the super users of Twitter,

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Speaker 1: which is that of the users who create the content

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Speaker 1: that most people are interacting with on Twitter, are already

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Speaker 1: there's already attrition. They're they're already leaving. And to me,

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Speaker 1: what I've seen with Ellen owning it is that attrition

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Speaker 1: is only going to be accelerated, and it's not that

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Speaker 1: they're going somewhere else. I think there's an entire generation

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Speaker 1: of people who have used this thing that just don't

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Speaker 1: want to be anywhere at all right now. That they

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Speaker 1: don't want to be online. They don't want to be

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Speaker 1: in constant arguments with random people on the internet. They

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Speaker 1: don't see a utility in trying to make their point

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Speaker 1: in a sort of black hole of opinion where ideas

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Speaker 1: go to die, which is sort of what Twitter is.

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Speaker 1: I'm one of these people. I used to tweet all

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Speaker 1: the time. I was tweeting constantly until a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: and then sort of slowly ebbed away and more and

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Speaker 1: more like I'll sit down, I'll open Twitter, I'll look

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Speaker 1: at it. I'll even maybe write a tweet about something

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Speaker 1: or reached about to I'm about to retweet something or

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Speaker 1: comment on something that somebody said, and then I just

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Speaker 1: think it's the fucking point, you know, what's the point?

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Speaker 1: Like I'm yelling into the void. They're yelling into the void,

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Speaker 1: and nothing good is going to come of it. And

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Speaker 1: so in the midst of all of this, you still

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Speaker 1: have got this kind of specter of Twitter being that

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Speaker 1: people talking about like the town square and the place where,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is the global consciousness and where we

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Speaker 1: all are talking and experiencing life on planet Earth, and

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Speaker 1: how we're gonna you know, go to the become glowing

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Speaker 1: orbs of pure thought or whatever if we just have

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Speaker 1: enough discourse on Twitter. And and you know, I think

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Speaker 1: in a way this whole thing exposes kind of the

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Speaker 1: smallness of it, right, the kind of they the fragility

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Speaker 1: of all of it. And is it actually the town square?

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Speaker 1: You know? And if it's the town's where for whatever

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Speaker 1: reality we live in it, is it the place where

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Speaker 1: we're watching public hangings or is it the place where

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Speaker 1: we see the greatest philosophers of our time engage in discourse?

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Speaker 1: And I think it's probably the former more than it

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Speaker 1: is the latter, and everybody's kind of like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to watch the hanging. Like sure, some people

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Speaker 1: will still show up for the gore, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of people just don't want that to be a part

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Speaker 1: of their lives. And so, you know, as I'm sort

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Speaker 1: of contemplating the end of this era, which is a

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Speaker 1: post V two social media, like i'd say like Facebook

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Speaker 1: and Twitter are kind of V two if my Space

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Speaker 1: and friends to r V one of social media, Instagram, Facebook,

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Speaker 1: Twitter are sort of V two, and they sort of

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Speaker 1: like post V two world that we're gonna live in,

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Speaker 1: and thinking about all of this stuff and thinking about

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Speaker 1: the ramifications of not just Twitter, but this era of

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Speaker 1: social media kind of coming to a close. You know.

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Speaker 1: I thought about people that I know and that I've

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Speaker 1: observed who have actually maybe lived this and really thought

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Speaker 1: about out at and I started thinking about Gia Tolentino. Lyrah,

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Speaker 1: do you know Gia Tolentino. I do. She was big

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Speaker 1: on Twitter, and she was somebody who was like a

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Speaker 1: central character on Twitter, very online. I think Gia represents

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Speaker 1: a very online generation which I think I'm part of

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Speaker 1: for sure, And I think there's a whole generation of

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Speaker 1: people who were raised by the Internet. I talked about

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Speaker 1: these people all the time. To me, they're a real

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Speaker 1: demographic that's very different than most people. But then there's

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Speaker 1: a whole segment of that audience that is like, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be on the Internet anymore. And I

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Speaker 1: think Gia, who wrote this amazing book Trick Mirror and

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Speaker 1: also again previously super Online, maybe like the vanguard or

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Speaker 1: at least, has been thinking a lot about what it's

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Speaker 1: like if you're not so online anymore, and what that

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Speaker 1: means for you as a human being on planet Earth.

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Speaker 1: So g is here. G is here, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk to her now about the Internet. Before we

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Speaker 1: get started, I just want to say that you have

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Speaker 1: done something on the Internet that has sort of like

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Speaker 1: broke my brain a little bit. About your name on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: Your name is Gia Tortellini. This is correct. That's like

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Speaker 1: your screen name, Okay, And so when I see your

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Speaker 1: name now, like wherever I see it, my brain is like,

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Speaker 1: your actual name is wrong and it should be Tortalini,

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Speaker 1: which makes no sense. So can yeah, yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: like it's op seck, it's you know, it's just a

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Speaker 1: better name. It's harder to find. It's also slightly unprofessional,

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Speaker 1: Like I really believe in that, and that's kind of

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Speaker 1: my stance on all of it. You basically quit Twitter

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Speaker 1: for two years. Can you talk about what spurred that

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Speaker 1: and you know the experience of what it's been like. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I had gotten on Twitter late because I

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Speaker 1: was in the Peace Corps until eleven and I didn't

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Speaker 1: get on Twitter until late, I think, when I started

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Speaker 1: grad school and I was starting to write for the Internet,

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Speaker 1: and I was outside New York. I didn't know anyone

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Speaker 1: in New York, and I had been without internet for

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Speaker 1: a year in the Peace Corps, and so it seemed

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Speaker 1: incredibly generative and interesting, and you know, I could see

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Speaker 1: all these things that I couldn't see from ann Arbor, Michigan,

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Speaker 1: and I could listen in on these conversations and whatever.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have a career if not for it. It

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Speaker 1: was my only connection to the media world. It was like,

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Speaker 1: I was quote unquote good on Twitter and good with

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Speaker 1: these mechanisms of self commodification and self broadcasting that have

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Speaker 1: become the center of the Internet. So I kind of

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Speaker 1: wrote that and I was having fun. And I remember

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Speaker 1: I was in the All Websites campfire. Everyone was making

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Speaker 1: jokes about how they wanted the Internet to burn down

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Speaker 1: all the time, and I was like, what are these

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Speaker 1: jaded people talking about. You know, it's like, the Internet

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Speaker 1: is so fun, get on my goog reader every day

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Speaker 1: and discover something new, you know. But then, you know,

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Speaker 1: that was like my first two years on Twitter was

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Speaker 1: feeling like that. I moved to New York to take

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Speaker 1: a job editing features for Jezebel and then got engulfed in,

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Speaker 1: you know, in a different kind of scale, right, a

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Speaker 1: website where you could run something and you know, this

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Speaker 1: was very new to me, where you could get a

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand people read reading it and yelling at you

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Speaker 1: very very quickly, and I found it exciting. I was

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Speaker 1: found it a little dangerous, you know. You remember Gaker

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Speaker 1: was constantly getting in trouble and we were always sucking up.

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Speaker 1: But it we had this total freedom, and it was

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Speaker 1: like the first time that I had really experienced how

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Speaker 1: intensely adversarial Twitter could be. And mostly I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a gauntlet. You figure out if you

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Speaker 1: can navigate it. If you can't, you can't. And then

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Speaker 1: I started working with The New Yorker in and around

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Speaker 1: the time that Trump got elected, I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this whole Arab spring like promise of the global town

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Speaker 1: square where everything trends towards liberal democracy and increasing freedom,

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Speaker 1: the whole Obama era democratization of media that I had

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Speaker 1: been a part of, you know, all these people that

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Speaker 1: never would have had any entry into the field, like me,

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Speaker 1: you know, who were able to because of Twitter. The

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Speaker 1: full on identitarian backlash against the Obama era opening up

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Speaker 1: of culture that was made possible via the Internet was

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Speaker 1: hitting right around that. The first essay in my book

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Speaker 1: is about this. I was writing it to try to

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Speaker 1: go about answering one specific question, and that question was

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Speaker 1: why did the Internet feel so good ten years ago?

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Speaker 1: And why does it feel so so bad right now?

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Speaker 1: And you know, implicitly like, what are the ways in

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Speaker 1: which it will continue to get worse? Right anyway? So

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Speaker 1: I finished my book in early and like every year,

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Speaker 1: I would intervene in my seasonal depression during Super Bowl

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Speaker 1: weekend by taking myself to the beach, like in North

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Speaker 1: Beach and just getting high in reading books, like completely

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Speaker 1: by myself, not speaking to anyone for like three days.

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Speaker 1: And I did that, and I I just turned my

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Speaker 1: book in and the first book that I opened on

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Speaker 1: the beach while extremely stoned was Jenny O'Dell's How to

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Speaker 1: Do Nothing, Um, you know, which is an incredible book,

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Speaker 1: and it is you know, making the argument, you know,

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Speaker 1: basically against capitalist instrumentalization, this idea that everything we need

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Speaker 1: to do needs to be productive visible that in fact,

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Speaker 1: the actually important things in life are not quantifiable, they're

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Speaker 1: not efficient, they're caregiving and maintenance and all these things

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Speaker 1: that these platforms don't recognize even as as any part

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Speaker 1: of life at all, like these thoughts that cannot be

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Speaker 1: put onto Twitter basically. And I was like, okay, I

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Speaker 1: have to really change my relationship with the Internet. So

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Speaker 1: right then, I put blockers on my computer and on

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Speaker 1: my phone that I couldn't use social media for more

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Speaker 1: than forty five minutes a day. And and so I

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Speaker 1: would it would like it would actually block you because

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Speaker 1: like there's yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I do the nuclear

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Speaker 1: and well and it's it's called self control on Google Chrome,

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Speaker 1: and I use freedom on my you know, the super

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Speaker 1: Orwellian like I gotta turn on my self control and

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Speaker 1: my freedom. You know that on its own is such

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Speaker 1: a this topic sort of weird, but I needed it,

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Speaker 1: Like I can't stop looking at my stuff on social media,

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Speaker 1: so I have an app called Freedom or whatever which

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Speaker 1: allows me to be a person, not this thing on

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Speaker 1: the internet. Yeah, and then whence Freedom would stop working

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Speaker 1: because it's a glitchy app, I would be like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, my freedom, Like what happened to my freedom?

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Speaker 1: And so starting I had already been really significantly trying

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Speaker 1: to curb my usage, and then in my book came out,

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Speaker 1: I had a best case scenario experience, but I found

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Speaker 1: it just horrifically um self alienating. I was always like,

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Speaker 1: it's okay as long as I can be completely myself.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, as long as as long as I'm not

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Speaker 1: manufacturing a different self for the internet. But then the

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Speaker 1: proportions that resulted from having a book that was that

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Speaker 1: was much more successful than I ever, ever, ever, ever,

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Speaker 1: ever had an inkling that it possibly even could be.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like a book of nine word essays

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Speaker 1: like right correctly wrong. But oh mom had releases something

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Speaker 1: every year where he's like, these are the books that

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Speaker 1: I loved or whatever, and your your book is on it, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know you will. You don't expect that you

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Speaker 1: don't And and it was just suddenly it was not

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Speaker 1: possible to be the fundamental way that I had always

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Speaker 1: believed in being in the world, which is just totally reciprocal,

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Speaker 1: totally open to anything. Like strangers would send me long

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Speaker 1: emails and I'd emailed them back, and I was just like,

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Speaker 1: this is no longer proportionately possible. And it made me upset,

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Speaker 1: making me feel like there was some reason to put

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Speaker 1: some sort of guard up, made me feel really bad

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Speaker 1: and weird and not at all like myself. And so

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Speaker 1: I started tweeting way less. And then the pandemic happened

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Speaker 1: six months later, and the feeling that I had had

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Speaker 1: since my book came out that I needed to get

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Speaker 1: off the Internet, that I was too visible, both in

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Speaker 1: terms of praise or negativity. You know, it proved itself

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Speaker 1: to be true. I had a big wave of sort

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Speaker 1: of being the Twitter main character in in mail down

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Speaker 1: May of the pandemic, there was this poem that went

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Speaker 1: viral about me that some old dude had written. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and like in some literary magazine published it with the

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Speaker 1: title Geo Tolentino and now it's on no your meme

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Speaker 1: dot com. Like it was just like I need to

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Speaker 1: and I was still on it for work to some extent.

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Speaker 1: But then in August I was about to have a baby,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, you know, it's now or never,

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Speaker 1: because I'm going to be up all night, in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night for for months, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be scrolling. I'm going to be reading something and

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Speaker 1: I don't want it to be Twitter. And so I

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Speaker 1: figured I shouldn't make a clean break now and see

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Speaker 1: how long I can stay off. And I'm still off.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much there that you've touched on

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Speaker 1: that was such a long answer. I'm sorry, No, No,

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Speaker 1: it was good. It was good because you actually went

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Speaker 1: through like a million of the things that have been

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Speaker 1: on my mind and are sort of weighing on me

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Speaker 1: as I think about this idea of ourselves in places

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Speaker 1: like Twitter and how we view ourselves and what that

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Speaker 1: means like for how we live. I think we've built

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Speaker 1: an unsustainable system. Right. There's all this very altruistic language

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Speaker 1: around every social network about how it's this like lofty

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Speaker 1: thing that we're all hurtling towards Jack Dorsey's like it's

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Speaker 1: the you know, global consciousness, and people called Twitter a

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Speaker 1: town square and Mark Zuckerberg talks about how his pursuitent

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Speaker 1: life is to connect the world. But it seems increasingly

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Speaker 1: that the scale of those connections is like breaking people's minds.

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Speaker 1: It's like kind of ruining like humanity in a way.

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Speaker 1: And so you've kind of backed away from it, And

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Speaker 1: I wonder, like does something come out after this, Like

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Speaker 1: what is the next stage of this, Like does it

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Speaker 1: just metastic size? Does it get worse? Or like is

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Speaker 1: there an off ramp? Have you found the off ramp?

428
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: Like what what is your view on that? I think

429
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: that there is no off ramp within the economic concentatives

430
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: of the companies themselves, right, I mean, they literally cannot

431
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,120
Speaker 1: be profitable unless more people spend more time on there,

432
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 1: and there's no way for that to be possible without

433
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: all of those things happening that break our brains, right,

434
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: you know, Like I always think about the way Patricia

435
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 1: lockwould put it in that great novel of hers that

436
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: just came out about the Internet. The attention moves on

437
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 1: the Internet like the shine on a school of fish.

438
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: What we're talking about is just the baseline logic of

439
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 1: capitalist accumulation, right where the teleological vision is perpetual growth,

440
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: perpetual increase, perpetual volume, perpetual scale. I don't want to

441
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: downplay you know, let's say me too our Black lives matter,

442
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: but I really think that the movements that have had

443
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 1: real teeth in the real world that have come up

444
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: off of Twitter and Facebook, like, they have all been

445
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: reactionary and they have far outweighed the positive consequences of

446
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 1: you know, the progressive gains that have been you know,

447
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: one on these platforms. The kinds of actual connection that

448
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: have been made are incredibly destructive. And you know, I

449
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: would think about during the protests in I got all

450
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: of my information about where to go off of Twitter

451
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 1: and off of Instagram, you know, but the action was

452
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: happening offline, and the effect overall is that of profound

453
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: isolation and loneliness and alienation. And you know, there's no

454
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: way that I can see any of these company is

455
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: doing anything but promising one and delivering the other. Right. Well,

456
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: I mean most of my friends have stopped tweeting, you know,

457
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: I'll say that, you know, there is a sort of

458
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: generational thing happening. I mean, I've had similar experience. I

459
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: haven't like full on left, Twitter or any of these

460
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: social networks, but like the amount of posting that I

461
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: do comparatively is way way down, Like I can barely

462
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 1: find anything to talk about. And I think there is

463
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 1: something that has happened driven by the pandemic a little bit,

464
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 1: the fact that we've had just so much Internet that

465
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: it almost feels like overwhelming. But but also it does

466
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: seem like there's sort of our maturing relationship with the Internet.

467
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: It's like, why does this need to be said in public? Yeah,

468
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: I mean right in your book, you quote Jason Cocky,

469
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: who's like one of the original bloggers on the Internet.

470
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 1: He says something like he didn't make any sense to

471
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: write my personal thoughts down, not on the Internet. Actual

472
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: reminded me of truth or Dare the Madonna documentary when

473
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: Warren Batty's talking to Madonna about how like they're filming

474
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: and he hates it because he's old and she's like

475
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: way younger than him, and she's making this documentary which

476
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 1: is really good for her, and they're filming everything thing

477
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: and he's like, there's nothing to say off camera. Would

478
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: you say something if it's off camera, which is exactly

479
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: what he was expressing. So there's obviously like these generational

480
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: sort of ebbs and flows of this, like the one

481
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: thing that I keep hoping for. And I think we

482
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: see a little bit with like the attrition of things

483
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: like on Facebook, where it's becoming more and more old

484
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: people and like boomers and fewer and fewer young people

485
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: want to be a part of it. Is it a

486
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: generational change that happens where people reject this? Yeah, I

487
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: think every generation has their social network, and the boomers

488
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: have Facebook, and you know, millennials have Instagram and and

489
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: gen z has TikTok or whatever else, right, Like I

490
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: think that that's Is that better? No? I think I

491
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: don't think it's better. I mean, I don't think it's

492
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: better until you know, I would be great if the

493
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: next iteration would be one in which proportions were gated.

494
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: You know, people are desiring some sort of online interaction

495
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: that will reflect rather than distort real life. And I

496
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: felt a little bit that way. I was a kid

497
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 1: that liked to be on stage and love to talk

498
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: to everybody, and I felt that I felt like, why

499
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: would I not like have my thoughts open to the

500
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: world and see who was interested. It's also part of

501
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: the personality of being a writer, you know. I mean

502
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: that's literally still my job. But I do feel like

503
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: there's been a big sort of mountain where there were

504
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: a lot of people who were like, why wouldn't we

505
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: do this, Why wouldn't we see what happens, what could

506
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: result if a bunch of people are looking, and who

507
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: we could become, and what and what we could make

508
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: of this? And then we saw it and we were like, no.

509
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: We took the algorithmic and economic incentive that had become

510
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: like an emotional one, this idea of what is the

511
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: maximum number of people that I could get to see

512
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: and applaud this right, it's a basic human desire in

513
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: a lot of ways that was just stretched beyond all

514
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: reason by the profit model these companies. And we saw

515
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: what it means, and it means every day on Twitter

516
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: there's a main character you know, like it It means

517
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: doc saying, it means getting swat teams sent to your door.

518
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: It means things that people actually don't want. I don't

519
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: think that you could make a social media company that

520
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: is as profitable as these companies would like to be

521
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: on any humane structure, Like there's no scale, it's humane

522
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: that fits with like the capitalistic model. Yeah, I don't

523
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: think that the fantasy of endless growth will ever will

524
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: ever map onto like any sort of healthy social network,

525
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it's really possible in any

526
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: industry with any model at all, but certainly not with

527
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: social media. On top of this conversation about how the

528
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: Internet is sort of breaking what we know of humanity,

529
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: how much of it is real? Right, because we talked

530
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: a little bit the beginning about Twitter and the scale

531
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: of its audience, and and you and I are people

532
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: in media, and we're surrounded by other people in media,

533
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: and in some ways those people do chart the conversation

534
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: for a much larger audience that isn't in places like Twitter,

535
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: and maybe isn't on Facebook. But is that real? You've

536
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: been off Twitter, you've been basically not using it for

537
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: several years. Did you feel in that time that, like

538
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: the things that were happening on the Internet, did they

539
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: crop up in your regular quotes around and I don't

540
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: you know, you're regular real life. Did it feel like

541
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: without Twitter that you were still exposed to the kinds

542
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: of things that were happening on Twitter, or did it

543
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: change like your perception of what actually is very real

544
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: in the world. I think getting off Twitter didn't change

545
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: because I think I had registered, you know, these things

546
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: where you're like, why the funk is everyone talking about

547
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: fucking shrimp and cinnamon toast crunch or whatever? You know,

548
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: like like those things always registered. They had been registering

549
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: for a really long time, you know. I think you

550
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: spend that. Actually, what you just cited is interesting because

551
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: it is like the six o'clock news story towards the

552
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: end of the broadcast where they're like shrimp and what

553
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: is it? Cinnamon toast shrimp and cinnamon toast crunch, And

554
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: it's like a little item about how some guy found

555
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: a shrimp in his cinnamon toast crunch, which, like there's

556
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: stories like that all the time. You did not cite

557
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: some big drama that was playing out, right, Like is

558
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: it stuff like that like that actually break through to reality. Well,

559
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: I it's a little more. It's a little more personal

560
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: in this respect because I had had several sort of

561
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: shifts in my attentional priorities kind of both intentional and not.

562
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: And I had written about internet ephemera a lot. I'd

563
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: written about sucking memes, you know, like I was just

564
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: writing about garbage all the time because I loved having

565
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: my face and garbage all day, you know. And then,

566
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: you know, as soon as COVID started, and my face

567
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: was in nothing but garbage all day, and I didn't

568
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: have this vibrant you know, rough around the edges, just

569
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: normal life, you know, to loom much larger than the Internet.

570
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: Every time I, you know, put down my phone, I

571
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: stopped being interested in Internet ephemera. I stopped being interested

572
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: to see if I could write eleven hundred words about

573
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: what some bullshit thing that a bunch of teenagers were

574
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: saying could mean about whatever, you know, Like I couldn't

575
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: write that kind of piece anymore. And I had always

576
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: blocked out a lot of things. I had always taken

577
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: a lot of pleasure and just not learning about something

578
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: that it didn't seem like I needed to know about.

579
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: I think that one of the brain diseases that Twitter

580
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: gives people is the idea they need to have an

581
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: opinion on everything. This is a disease that's also common

582
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: among opinion writers, like of which I was, and a

583
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: kind of one, and so I always it's just like

584
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,959
Speaker 1: posters disease, posters disease, Bill, It's it's adjacent to posters ease.

585
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: I think it's like op end writer's disease, right where

586
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: you're like, what does this mean about this? It's like

587
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: sometimes ship doesn't have to mean ship about ship, and

588
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: you can just you know, like read a book and whatever. Right,

589
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: And so it's like what Britain says about it, unless

590
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: you really mean it, you don't have to write that.

591
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: You don't have to. And but that isn't that a

592
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: product of the hot take industrial complex? Like isn't that

593
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: are we We've accelerated the need for content so people

594
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: have to constantly come up with Actually, the hot take

595
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: industrial complex has has has folded a bit. People have

596
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: realized that, like, actually, you can just sit this one out.

597
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: Although I get on Twitter now and I see people

598
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: being like, hey, you can just sit this one out,

599
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: and I'm like, the real sitting this one out is

600
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: just nut saying yeah, not saying that. You know that.

601
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: I know it's you're right, The hot tache world has

602
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: somewhat imploded because and I think that's good. I know

603
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: it's definitely good because like the scale of content is

604
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: and this is feeds right back into what we're talking about.

605
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: Is this like belief that there is this sort of

606
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: infinite adience that you can go and grab, like if

607
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: you have a million people reading, maybe you can have

608
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: five million people reading, maybe ten million. And to your

609
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: point about the capitalistic sort of underpinions of it, there's

610
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: this demand for up to the level of, hey, you're

611
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: an op ed writer and you have to write something

612
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: about this, but down to I have to say something

613
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: on Twitter, right, there's like the machine demands yeah, I

614
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: mean and and literally the machine does demand it. Back

615
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: to the thing that you were talking about earlier with

616
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: the vision of the self. This is against something that

617
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: I wrote about in the book, but it's like the

618
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: greatest pleasure that I've ever had in my life are

619
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: moments in which my selfhood has dissolved, right, moments where

620
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: I feel a total dissolution of the ego. Whether it's

621
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: I'm like around my friends, or I'm out dancing, or

622
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: am I an acid or you know, like walking in

623
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: the park with my dog, just things where you feel

624
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: the boundaries of yourself disappearing. On the Internet, all it

625
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: does is sore those up and position you at the

626
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: center of a universe at which we are most certainly

627
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: not the center. And that was something that I've been

628
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: thinking about for a long time. And since getting off Twitter,

629
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: one thing I have not been able to spend any

630
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: less time on my phone. My brain did feel clearer

631
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: and better because I, you know, didn't have this useless

632
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: cacophony of you know, of ship that no one would

633
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: remember the next day. You know, I didn't have that

634
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: pointed in my eyes at all time. But I sort

635
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: of was secretly like, maybe I'll start having these amazing ideas,

636
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: like maybe my brain will start being incredibly original, like

637
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: genius will pour forth because I'm finally you know, And

638
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: it's like, no, I was actually any time to be

639
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: bored or whatever so we can generate. And if anything,

640
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: I was dumber being off Twitter because my brain wasn't

641
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: just kind of being sharpened by these little like razor sharp,

642
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: tiny useless irritants. But but were you off Twitter and

643
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: Instagram and everything else? Like I don't know what you use?

644
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: I mean obviously, like I said, you're on Instagram, you

645
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: don't post that I use. I use Instagram. I don't

646
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: follow celebrities like I follow my friends and then I

647
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: follow a lot of like National Park and dog and

648
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: meme accounts, but so Instagram is a pretty positive space

649
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: for me. Well, it's interesting on Instagram is I've actually

650
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: I feel allergic now almost seeing like regular Instagram images,

651
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: like I think there's something about again, maybe like the

652
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: deep Grape Juice boys, like yes, no, I want. I'm

653
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: like everything I followed recently has been like largely meme accounts,

654
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: and it is just I've been like putting these in

655
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 1: like a WhatsApp conversation that I have with with some

656
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: friends and family, and they were like, you have posters disease,

657
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: Like what's going on? Like all you're doing is like

658
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: putting these memes in here, and I'm like, yeah, just no.

659
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: I mean I like to think that they're great, but

660
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: I mean they're not mine, you know, I'm just borrowing.

661
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: But it's interesting though, that is a place where if

662
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: you go back a few years ago, pre pandemic, for sure,

663
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: Instagram was like you might follow people who like looking

664
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: at their content is some form of self harm where

665
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: you're like this person seems to be having like a

666
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: life that is so good and so enjoyable and so beautiful.

667
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: And my life by comparison, feel so small and ugly.

668
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: And I assume the mainstream user is still looking at

669
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: that stuff more, but I think that is still the

670
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: economic engine is like hot women on vacation being like

671
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: I have anxiety and like that's that's it now, right,

672
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,239
Speaker 1: But there usage is dropping like precipitously, Like I mean,

673
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: somebody was just tweeting about I sound so deranged. I'm like,

674
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: somebody was just tweeting about Instagram's users are like kind

675
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: of going, you know, leaving the service. But that is true. Um,

676
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,479
Speaker 1: the numbers are going down, and like, I guess where

677
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: I get to and perhaps you know where we can

678
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: conclude this exploration of what the funk is going on

679
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: on the Internet and what happens next? You know, is

680
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: it that okay? Well, all that attention just went over

681
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: to TikTok, and like on TikTok, not only is it

682
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: further reinforcement of some of the craziest ship that you've

683
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: ever seen in your life, and it all happening in

684
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: real time like video, Like you don't even get a

685
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: chance to like process it because like you're literally watching

686
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: it before you know what you're doing. Unbelievable decontextualization machine.

687
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: It's wild. But then it's also you know, the data

688
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: is being sold to like foreign entities and whatever is

689
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: going on, you know, like, you know, is it just

690
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: that it just we keep digging a hole, Like is

691
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: TikTok the next big world destroying hole that we are

692
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: digging for ourselves? Or is it the that we don't

693
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: just get better at this as a society. You think,

694
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: as long as it's being driven by capitalism, there's always

695
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: going to be something that is chipping away at our

696
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: identity and our humanity and our society. Yeah, I mean

697
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: I try to think about it in terms of like

698
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: what are the incentives of the company, and then what

699
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: are the incentives of the people on them, and and

700
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: the extent to which Like on TikTok, I mean, the

701
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: incentive of the company is to get as many raw

702
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: hours of video that can then be analyzed by powerful AI,

703
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: you know, to increase like repressive surveillance technology, you know

704
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: on weakers, Like it's like you know, I mean, it's

705
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: it's not sci fi like that's actually happening now that

706
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: that is exactly what's happening. I mean, that is the

707
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: mildest version of what's happening. But the the user's incentive

708
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: is also to upload as many hours of raw video

709
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: as possible that are watched by as many people as

710
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: possible and engaged with as many as people as possible.

711
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: And I think, like take offline capitalism, we know, to

712
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: whatever extent that still exists, I think that, you know,

713
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: we still do find ways to preserve basic humanity in

714
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: the grip of mechanisms that are incredibly dehumanizing, right, I

715
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: mean the real estate market, right, like just anything like

716
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: the workers at Amazon like managed to unionize and build

717
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: community in the middle of a machine that is literally

718
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: built to break them into the ground. Like I think

719
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: that people are always capable of of surprising themselves and

720
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: resisting the incentives that are presented to them. But I

721
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: also think that the you know, if the if the

722
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 1: company can only make money, if people engage in this

723
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: endless capitalist accumulation of growth, then people are going to

724
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: do it. Then that is going to be the controlling

725
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: behavior on the platform, and the dynamics that result from

726
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: that will be the controlling ones in culture, and we

727
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: will get Q and on, and we will get people

728
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: storming the capital and we will get constant conspiracy, we

729
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: will get the total dissolution of any idea of shared truth.

730
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: I think my point of view with all of them

731
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: was like, use it as long as you still feel

732
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 1: like a human. And with me, I can still easily

733
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: use Instagram and feel like a human um, but for Twitter,

734
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: I couldn't anymore. You know, people either embrace not feeling

735
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: like humans, which plenty of people do and have, or

736
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: we back off. It's strange to feel like this ludite

737
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: quality coming out in me when I'm not that old

738
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: and I'm such a creature of the digital world. The

739
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: best of what people are looking for in these platforms

740
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: barely approaches the things that we actually want in real life,

741
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: right The kind of connection, the kind of love, the

742
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: kind of being seen, the kind of fun that people

743
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: are really really looking for. It only really exists in

744
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: real life. And I think people know that, you know,

745
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: probably if you talked to a fift year old right now,

746
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: like they both are deeper in it than either of

747
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: us ever were. And they also probably know that better

748
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 1: than either of us, do you know? And I wonder

749
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: if those two truths will sort of pull on each

750
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: other from opposite ends. Of the spectrum on people's minds,

751
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: you know, like the recognition of the harm and then

752
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 1: the participation in it. Sort of feels like what we're

753
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: doing with many things visa v this stage in you know,

754
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: American history. But I think what's amazing where you get to,

755
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: I mean, basically where you get to in that argument

756
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: is sort of like we have to alter the systems

757
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: that make the world function to change the way we

758
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: behave within the systems, like capitalism as a concept, or

759
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: at least the the version of it that currently exists,

760
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: where it is like such an insanely top down capitalism

761
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: where the people who are in the machine have so

762
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 1: little power to control like their actual fate inside of it.

763
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: It is like we have to like smash capitalism is

764
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: like sort of you know, like a fundamental I think

765
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: that's the answer to every single problem we have, Like

766
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: I'm a change and everything. I mean that that is

767
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: the answer. But but there's also a different way into

768
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: that answer. The way that I'm more think about that

769
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 1: is that I don't think we were at large would

770
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 1: have this kind of unhealthy compulsive relationship to the Internet. If,

771
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: for example, let's take the conversation around like representation. Right,

772
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: It's like the frenzy around representational change exists only because

773
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: the avenues towards material change are so cut off and protracted. Right,

774
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: It's like if all of these sectors of labor we're

775
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: not crumbling, and if economic stability were not in many

776
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: ways like tied, especially in case of emergency to visibility

777
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: on these platforms like your go fund me, if your

778
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: kids fucking shot in school. You know, Like it's like

779
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: the way that these platforms are are serving as sort

780
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: of poor substitutes for civic mechanisms and like financial layers

781
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: of security that have been hollowed out by the system.

782
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: You know. It's like I think that that if if

783
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 1: American life was better, the way that we would interact

784
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: with the Internet would be different. There's a raw and

785
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: desperate edge to this desire to establish like the attentional

786
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 1: equivalent of a tiny four oh one K or something right, Right,

787
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: We've dissolved the sense of like support of community, and

788
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: we're like looking for it on these vast platforms that

789
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: say they will deliver community and connection and support and

790
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: all those other things that if we had actual like

791
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: support and communities and like networks within our society that's

792
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: that are taking care of people, people felt valued in

793
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: their work by their politicians and by their government. You know,

794
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: like we would be both a lot less, No, I

795
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: mean to be a lot less to say, right, if

796
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 1: you had healthcare and you didn't have like this insane

797
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: student loan stuff, and you could like rent an apartment

798
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: and not go broke, like, you wouldn't have as much

799
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: to be posting about. Which but that's maybe the system

800
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: is that it Like, yeah, I think you and I

801
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 1: both are feeling probably pretty depressed about the current state

802
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: of the internet. It gives me a little glimmer of

803
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: hope because if people like us and other people are

804
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: feeling this and seeing and trying to act on it,

805
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: maybe there's the possibility that we actually can affect some

806
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: kind of change in the grander scheme here. And so

807
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: that if I can end this on a hopeful that

808
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: I think has given me enough fuel at least for

809
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: it in the next twenty four hours. Yeah, I have

810
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: faith in that too. I think even just like simple refusal,

811
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: like simple refusal, I've been thinking about it, you know,

812
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, like with the abortion stuff like jury nullification,

813
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 1: Like I've been thinking more about like a simple quiet

814
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: refusal to participate in various things that are you know,

815
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: pitched to us as normal and ubiquitous and and necessary

816
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: like the you know, the reason I was able to

817
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: get off Twitter is because I accrued the professional freedom

818
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: that allowed me to not need it to get work.

819
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: Me seven years ago could not have literally afforded to

820
00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: get off Twitter because I needed it to help me

821
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: get a job. But but I think there is something

822
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: to be said for like constantly evaluating what are the

823
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: freedoms that are available to me that I would like

824
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: to make use of that I am not making use

825
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 1: of in any direction. And I think there's yeah, there's

826
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: always more visa v. Social media than meaning Well, I agree,

827
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: And also I feel like, I don't know, more conversations

828
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: like this can maybe start to get I'm not saying

829
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: that I personally have any importance on anybody, but it's

830
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: like it's nice to talk to another person who is

831
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: aware of this thing that feels like it's just underpinning

832
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: all of the way that that the Internet functions, you know,

833
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: And like I think everyone I know, I want there

834
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: to be everyone know. I mean getting off Twitter as

835
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: part of it. But I do think it's also like

836
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: when you talked about the things where you kind of

837
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: lost yourself and you felt like those were like your

838
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: best experiences where you weren't thinking about yourself, like dancing

839
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: or walking the dog or whatever, like you're talking about

840
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: things that also were happening in physical reality exactly. I mean,

841
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: you didn't name a single thing that was like something

842
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: you were doing on your computer or on a phone own,

843
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: And so I do think there's again not to be

844
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: a lot, And I mean, what's so crazy as I

845
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: remember arguing with my dad when I was like twelve

846
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: about how the internet was going to change the world

847
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: and how important it was, But there is something that

848
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: is like that missing piece does seem to be what

849
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: is it like now to be physically around other people

850
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: and to have to engage in things that are not

851
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: like your words on a screen versus somebody else's. And

852
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: I think that's like a big part of the missing link. Well,

853
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: and I think everyone realized that there's there's so much

854
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: more space now for people to understand that post or

855
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: you know, not post pandemic, but at this point in

856
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: the pandemic where it's like there's no substitute for it.

857
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: Affirmation on the Internet at its most kind of thrilling

858
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,479
Speaker 1: has always felt alienating to me. But love in real

859
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: life that feels real, you know, And there's nothing like unsurveilled,

860
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: un mediated presence the internet. It's best can only kind of,

861
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: you know, approach a shadow of that. And we're little

862
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: animals like we we are, and we need to we

863
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: need to go out into a field. Yeah and run free. Gia,

864
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: thank you so much. This is fascinating conversation. I really appreciate.

865
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: I feel like there's probably like two more hours of

866
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: stuff that we could have talked about, and so we'll

867
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: have to do this again sometime. Yeah, thank you for

868
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: having me, and I am very interested to see where

869
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: this goes, aren't we all? So what are you going

870
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: to do now? Well, I gotta pay for that blue

871
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: check mark number one. I gotta give him twenty bucks

872
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: a month to get keep my blue checkmark going. We

873
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: didn't even talk about this that he's like arguing with

874
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: Stephen King. Stephen do we talk about this? Stephen Kings? Like?

875
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: Are you joking? Like you should pay me to be

876
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: on Twitter? Like I'm not gonna give you twenty dollars

877
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 1: above and Elon Musk is like, Okay, how about eight dollars?

878
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: And it's like, dude, this is not how you run

879
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: a business. This is not how you come up with

880
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: the plan to save Twitter is like haggling with Stephen

881
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: king On on Twitter about the cost of a blue

882
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 1: check bark. By the way, like the idea of pain

883
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: a monthly fee to have a blue check mark on

884
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: Twitter is absurd. Anyhow, So what am I going to do.

885
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to continue not giving a ship increasingly about

886
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: like the discourse on social media, because uh, what I

887
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 1: know to be true is that there are more important

888
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: things in life, and that doesn't it doesn't define reality,

889
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: you know. So I don't have a problem with remaining

890
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: Like I'm I still have a Facebook account. I never

891
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: quit Facebook, but I certainly don't fucking use Facebook, and

892
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: I don't think about Facebook. It's not part of my

893
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: diet every day on the internet. And so I think

894
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: increasingly like Twitter is gonna look like that, and Instagram

895
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: is gonna look like that, and then we'll find something new.

896
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's TikTok, but maybe there's something else,

897
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: or maybe there's nothing. Maybe we just go back to

898
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: email and I'm fine with that. So, like the question is, like,

899
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: does Twitter fucking matter? Like, Actually, what I'll say is

900
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: it matters if we are like interacting with reality and

901
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: real people and not fighting with random people on the Internet.

902
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: That's unhealthy. But in the grand scheme of the reality

903
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: that we exist in, we think Twitter is important because

904
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: media people are on Twitter, and a few celebrities are

905
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter, and a very very small group of people

906
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: like Elon Musk, thinks Twitter is important. He's a billionaire,

907
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: a very successful CEO. He loves to have people tell

908
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: him that he's got funny and cool ideas, and he's

909
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: on Twitter all the time, acting like that's the place

910
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: where all the stuff happens. But for most people in

911
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: the world, for most human beings in America and beyond,

912
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: Twitter is not the stuff that is happening. Twitter is

913
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: not the place where real things happen. The Internet and

914
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: technology are very very important and can do amazing things,

915
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, not everything should

916
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: be equally weighted, and increasingly, like stuff I see on

917
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: Twitter or stuff that you see on Twitter or Facebook

918
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: or Instagram needs to be taken as a giant grain

919
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: of salt, like that's not reality. Reality exists outside of that,

920
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: and we've got to grapple a lot more with that.

921
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: We think the value of information is how fast you

922
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: can get it. They're literally used to be this thing,

923
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: and people still do it. And it is someone commenting first.

924
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: Like when we used to publish blog posts on many

925
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: websites that I ran. You would write the story it,

926
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: put it up, and then somebody would comment as quickly

927
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: as possible first, meaning I was the first person to

928
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 1: comment on this story. Okay, Twitter does that at scale.

929
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 1: It's like I'm the first person to tell you, like

930
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson is dead, how did he die? Where did

931
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 1: he die? When did I did he really die? You

932
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 1: don't know any of that fucking information? What is my account?

933
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: You don't know I have a blue check mark. Maybe

934
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: maybe not if you look at my bio to the

935
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: say I'm a reporter for the New York Times. Maybe

936
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 1: maybe I'm just a fucking guy. Maybe I'm an orderly

937
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: at the hospital. But like the point is you could

938
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: see it first. Michael Jackson is dead. What you know

939
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: about Michael Jackson's death is non existent. But like that

940
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: is like the core of misinformation. It is like I

941
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: can say some bullshit on Twitter or anywhere else, and

942
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: it can be spread around really quickly, so quickly and

943
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: so much that people think is real. It collapses the

944
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: context into a fucking bite size, little SoundBite. And now

945
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: that's the fucking thing that is broadcast out into the ether.

946
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: And like that is why it's such a destructive and

947
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: shitty and useless part of the Internet. It is, and

948
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: it is really truly like it is. So it's such

949
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: a refined and clear thing now to me that like

950
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: this method of communicating information to people is fundamentally broken

951
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: and bad. It is so fucking obvious, it is so clear.

952
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: And the fact that we would sit here and anybody

953
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: would sit here and defend it and want to be

954
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: part of it and really care about it is deranged.

955
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: Open it up. Let's see what people are talking about.

956
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: What's happening. Plastic recycling is a myth. Study says, that's

957
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: the first thing I see. Fans are freaking out over

958
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 1: Donald Phazon and his daughter's clueless costumes. Here's the fucking

959
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: article about Gretta Thunberg. Grettath Thunberg used to see her

960
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: goals to protect the plan from climate change, but now

961
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: she admits it's to overthrow the whole capitalist system, which

962
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: she says responsible for imperialism, oppression, genocide, racist, oppressive extraction.

963
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: Is um here, I am about to click on the

964
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: fucking article about how Gretta Thunberg actually wants to overthrow capitalism.

965
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: Actually a message to Elon Musk is trending, as is

966
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: Daniel Radcliffe. Daniel Radcliffe says speaking out against J. K.

967
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: Rowling was important. Not everybody in the franchise shares her

968
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: belief like that sounds like a great thing you're about

969
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 1: as I'm watching Entertainments the night to borrow like Daniel, Well,

970
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: that is our show for this week. We'll be back

971
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: next week on Thursday with even more what Future And

972
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: as always, I wish you and your family the very

973
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: very best.