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Speaker 1: Daniel, how's our podcast doing these days? Are you number

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Speaker 1: one in any territories right now? Unfortunately we are only

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Speaker 1: number three in natural science in the US, behind some

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Speaker 1: like paranormal and bigfoot podcasts. Maybe we should do those

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Speaker 1: topics then we can be number one. Daniel and Jorge

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Speaker 1: explained Bigfoot. How are those considered natural science? Doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: very natural to me. I don't know, but the folks

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Speaker 1: in the UK actually have us as number one in

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Speaker 1: natural science, ahead of the big Foot podcast. So shout

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Speaker 1: out to the UK science listeners. Maybe they don't have

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Speaker 1: sasquatch in the UK, or maybe they call it something

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Speaker 1: different like lockness or be for a guy. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but it makes me hopeful that will be number one

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Speaker 1: in natural science in other places. Are you thinking globally

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Speaker 1: or are you thinking like solar system? Why? Yeah, let's

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Speaker 1: go into planetary I want to become the top podcast

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Speaker 1: of Martian colonists. Why stop there? Why not go all

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Speaker 1: the way to Jupiter or Uranus? I mean Uranus? Sure?

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Speaker 1: I want to also be number one podcast among aliens

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Speaker 1: eavesdropping on human technology? Do you think we have alien fans?

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Speaker 1: I just wonder if that's going to change who buys

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Speaker 1: ads for the show? What kind of products do you

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Speaker 1: think they would be trying to sell to humans? I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but thanks to cryptocurrency and Venmo, they can

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Speaker 1: actually send their funds interplanetary lee to us on Earth.

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Speaker 1: You think they have Venmo and other galaxies or other planets? Also,

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Speaker 1: how do they do the exchange tree? Don't you need

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Speaker 1: like a central bank or something. We'll figure that out

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Speaker 1: when we build our Daniel and Jorge Galactic Empire, which

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Speaker 1: will include cryptocurrency. I don't know, Man, sounds kind of risky. Well,

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Speaker 1: if we're not going to do crypto zoology, we gotta

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Speaker 1: do crypto something, crypto economics, exo crypto economics, exo crypto

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Speaker 1: podcast comics. I'll be the first person with a PhD

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Speaker 1: in that field. Hi am Jorhammer, cartoonists and the creator

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Speaker 1: of PhD comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle of

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Speaker 1: physicist and a professor at UC Irvine, and I own

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Speaker 1: zero cryptocurrency. Oh how do you know? I mean, isn't

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Speaker 1: it all virtual? Couldn't you virtually own it too? I

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Speaker 1: mean I checked my pockets and I didn't find any.

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Speaker 1: So that's what I mean you wouldn't find it in

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Speaker 1: your pockets, I mean my digital pockets. Man. No, I'm

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Speaker 1: not invested in cryptocurrency, have not bought any cryptocurrency. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that anything I own owns any cryptocurrency. To

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Speaker 1: the best of my knowledge, as my lawyer's advised me

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Speaker 1: to say, I am not in the crypto universe. It

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Speaker 1: might be hard to tell the these days. I wonder

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Speaker 1: like if some mutual fund you buy, buy some other

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Speaker 1: fund that buys another fund that maybe has a little

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Speaker 1: bit of crypto in it. We probably all have a

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Speaker 1: little bit of crypto in us. Humans are pretty cryptic,

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Speaker 1: I guess. But welcome their podcast. Daniel and Jorge explained,

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Speaker 1: do you know a production of our heart Radio in

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Speaker 1: which we attempt to do our best to decrypt the

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Speaker 1: universe and explain all of its mysteries to you. We

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Speaker 1: want to unscramble the craziness that is our cosmos and

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Speaker 1: explain to you how it can be understood in terms

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Speaker 1: of a set of basic physical laws. It seems like

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Speaker 1: so far everything out there can be made sense of.

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Speaker 1: It's possible to assemble simple mathematical stories that describe how

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Speaker 1: balls bounce against each other. How galaxies form, and maybe

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Speaker 1: even what's inside black holes or the fundamental underpinnings of

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Speaker 1: alien economics. It's right because it is a pretty rich

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Speaker 1: universe full of amazing and incredible treasures that you can

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Speaker 1: invest in in order to grow your mind, I guess,

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Speaker 1: And so that's what we do here. We like to

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Speaker 1: talk about it so we can have a pretty good

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Speaker 1: exchange with all of you about it. All we ask

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Speaker 1: for is your time and a slice of your brain

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Speaker 1: to sit with us and enjoy the crazy mysteries of

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Speaker 1: the universe as we try to unravel them. While we

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Speaker 1: are here on this tiny rock, we are able to

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Speaker 1: cast our minds across the cosmos and wonder what's going

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Speaker 1: on out there in other solar systems. Are there aliens

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Speaker 1: looking up at their night skies wondering what we are

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Speaker 1: thinking about and whether we would be interested in buying

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Speaker 1: their n f T s. Yeah, because it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: big universe, and as they said in the movie Contact,

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Speaker 1: it would be kind of a shame if we were

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Speaker 1: the only living Sentien beings in it. It would be

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Speaker 1: a pretty amazing thing to be the only ones in

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Speaker 1: this vast universe that we have some kind of intelligence

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Speaker 1: or podcasts. It would be pretty amazing to be alone,

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Speaker 1: and it would be pretty amazing to not be alone. Either.

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Speaker 1: Answer to this famous question is mind blowing. Does it

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Speaker 1: depend you think on whether you're an extrovert species or

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Speaker 1: an introvert species. I think it's nice to know that

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Speaker 1: they're out there. If you're an introvert species, you might

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Speaker 1: not want to give them a call, but you still

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Speaker 1: want to know that they exist. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: everybody is probably curious about the universe, but there's an

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Speaker 1: insumption there. Right we're extrapolating our experience to the experience

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Speaker 1: of aliens. We're hoping that the is other intelligence out

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Speaker 1: there in the universe because we know that we are

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Speaker 1: capable of joy and love and beauty, and we hope

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Speaker 1: that aliens out there are also having a good time.

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Speaker 1: We hope that they aren't floating in their slime pits

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Speaker 1: and just totally suffering. Would that makes you, I guess,

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Speaker 1: more of an ex overt because you like exceplanetary life.

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Speaker 1: I am more of an ex overt than an extrovert,

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Speaker 1: that's true. I'm more interested in talking to aliens than

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Speaker 1: humans sometimes and learning from them. I guess because if

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Speaker 1: there are aliens out there, there's a lot that we

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Speaker 1: can learn from them, right, there's a lot that we

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Speaker 1: can learn about how to travel through stars, or even

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Speaker 1: just how to make it past our point intilisation to

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Speaker 1: greater things, or just how to be alive in this universe.

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Speaker 1: When you travel, even just here on Earth and experience

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Speaker 1: different human cultures, you learn so much about the basic

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Speaker 1: questions they ask about life, the approach they take. It

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Speaker 1: makes you realize how much of your life and the

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Speaker 1: way you think is kind of arbitrary and cultural. It

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Speaker 1: opens your minds, it shows you the box that you

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Speaker 1: have been thinking in, and so talking to aliens would

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Speaker 1: be the ultimate version of that. Experience could help us

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Speaker 1: understand our context in ways we can't even imagine today,

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Speaker 1: and of course, perhaps help us crack some of the

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Speaker 1: long standing physics problems we're being in our heads against.

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Speaker 1: I feel like maybe we could do that on our own, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: what do humans need help? Can we figure it all

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Speaker 1: out eventually on our own? It's certainly possible that we

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Speaker 1: could figure it all out eventually, But we might not

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Speaker 1: be the smartest species out there, right, I think humans

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Speaker 1: are pretty clever, But it's possible we have a limitation

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Speaker 1: to our fundamental neural capacity that makes it impossible for

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Speaker 1: us to grasp the mathematics that underlie the universe. Is

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Speaker 1: also the possibility of false starts. You know, human science

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Speaker 1: is fairly diverse, but it also has collapsed along a

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Speaker 1: few pathways, choices we made early on, being influenced by

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Speaker 1: geniuses who came along. It's just interesting to think about

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Speaker 1: other paths and intelligent species might have taken that might

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Speaker 1: be more or less fruitful in terms of understanding the universe.

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Speaker 1: I wonder how we would react if one of your

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Speaker 1: students said that to you, like, Hey, Dr Whiteson, I

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Speaker 1: don't think I'm the smartest person in the class. I

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Speaker 1: just don't have the neural processes for it. Can I

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Speaker 1: copy that person next to me for our test? You

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Speaker 1: would have to say yes, Daniel. I think the ultimate

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Speaker 1: exam for an intelligent species is working together to figure

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Speaker 1: out the mystery of the universe. So we're all getting

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Speaker 1: graded on a group project. That's how I see it. Well,

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Speaker 1: it is an interesting topic to think about whether aliens

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Speaker 1: exist out there, And just to be clear, Daniel, nobody

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Speaker 1: has seen or talked to any aliens as far as

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Speaker 1: physicists know. Right, as far as this physicists, no, we

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Speaker 1: have no confirmed communications with aliens. Absolutely, that's a different

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Speaker 1: podcast in the natural sciences. Maybe the Luckness Monster is

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Speaker 1: actually an alien come to Earth to talk to its

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Speaker 1: long lost brother Bigfoot. I think you just found our

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Speaker 1: new gold mine here, fun fan fiction about human fiction cryptozoology.

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Speaker 1: But instead of thinking about what other weird kinds of

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Speaker 1: life might exist in the lakes of Scotland or the

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Speaker 1: deep forests of Alaska, we like to think about what

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Speaker 1: kind of life might exists on other planets and whether

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Speaker 1: it would be possible to communicate with them. If we're

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Speaker 1: going to hear messages from distant civilizations on the other

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Speaker 1: side of the galaxy, will of course need to receive

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Speaker 1: those messages. They'll need to be capable of sending us

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Speaker 1: those messages, so we have to think a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what their civilizations might be capable of. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: all those this might seem like baseless extrapolation or speculation,

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Speaker 1: it is something that physicists have been engaging for a while,

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Speaker 1: have polished papers on these ideas about aliens and what

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Speaker 1: aliens could look like, and even Carl saying I was

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Speaker 1: sort of famous for chiming in a lot about aliens.

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Speaker 1: You say baseless extrapolation like it's a bad thing. I

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Speaker 1: don't get it usually when maybe in physics the bar

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Speaker 1: is lower. Is that what you're saying? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: in physics were often tackling problems that are basically impossible.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how to get started, and so what

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Speaker 1: we usually do is we begin with the simplest, dumbest thing,

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Speaker 1: which often involves baseless extrapolation, Like we don't know how

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Speaker 1: to tackle this, Let's just assume a spherical cow and

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Speaker 1: start from there. And we're going to talk about alien civilizations.

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Speaker 1: The only example we have is our own, and so

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Speaker 1: we have to begin at least by making some assumptions

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Speaker 1: about alien civilizations and their similarity to civilization on Earth,

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Speaker 1: knowing all the time, keeping in the back of our

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Speaker 1: heads that we are making these assumptions and that maybe

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Speaker 1: one day we'll figure out how to relax them or

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Speaker 1: break them or get out of that box. And then

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Speaker 1: I guess the point would be that once we meet aliens,

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Speaker 1: you can be like, Hi, I told you so, or WHOA,

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Speaker 1: I was totally wrong? Is that the whole point of it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you think this through and you come to some conclusions,

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Speaker 1: and then you meet aliens and discover they're totally different

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Speaker 1: from what you expected. It helps you think through what

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Speaker 1: you might have misunderstood, which aspect of your assumptions, which

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Speaker 1: step in your line of thinking might have gone wrong.

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Speaker 1: How much of your time did you waste? Well, it's

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Speaker 1: that or just don't think about it. You know that's right.

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Speaker 1: It's do physics or just don't think about it. Those

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Speaker 1: are the two only two options. Do physics or do nothing? Right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, is there anything else on the menu that's right? Well,

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Speaker 1: what else would there be in life to do? No?

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Speaker 1: But when you are tackling really big, hard questions about

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Speaker 1: the nature of the universe and alien civilizations, you don't

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Speaker 1: often have first principles to start from, so you just

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Speaker 1: sort of explore the space using some assumptions to get

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Speaker 1: yourself oriented. Yeah, so this is something physicists have been

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Speaker 1: thinking about, and in fact, there's an interesting framework to

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Speaker 1: think about it. And the question here is what would

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Speaker 1: an alien civilization look like? Can we extrapolate from human civilization?

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Speaker 1: So to be on the podcast, we'll be tackling how

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Speaker 1: powerful can a civilization get? Now? Daniel is as powerful

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Speaker 1: as in like awesome, or powerful as in like will

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Speaker 1: come and kill us? Powerful as in what is there

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Speaker 1: in number one podcast? In the natural sciences in certain

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Speaker 1: countries clearly a leading indicator of cultural value and progress, right,

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Speaker 1: and handsomeness as well. Don't forget there's a clear correlation

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Speaker 1: if you look at a certain data set. There's lots

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Speaker 1: of ways to think about the power of a civilization.

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Speaker 1: But in a very practical sense, if we are going

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Speaker 1: to discover an alien civilization without going there, they need

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Speaker 1: to be pretty powerful because we have to receive their signals,

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Speaker 1: right if they are far far away around another star

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Speaker 1: for us to hear their messages, their messages have to

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Speaker 1: arrive on Earth, which means they need a certain power

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Speaker 1: in their broadcast. And so we can think about, like, fundamentally,

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Speaker 1: what is the energy available to those civilizations? Would they

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Speaker 1: even have enough energy to beam us a message from

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Speaker 1: the other side of the galaxy? You mean sort of

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Speaker 1: like what's their footprint, Like what's their energy footprint? I

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Speaker 1: physicist tends to think about things as like simple black boxes, right,

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Speaker 1: like energy in, energy out. But if physicist things about nutrition,

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Speaker 1: for example, it's just like calories in calories burned, right,

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Speaker 1: physicists model humans as like simple bomb calorimeters, and so

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Speaker 1: here we're modeling like the entire complexity of an alien

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Speaker 1: civilization in terms of like how much energy to have

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Speaker 1: access to and how much energy can they afford to

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Speaker 1: put it to their signal? I see. So today we're

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Speaker 1: serve asking like how much energy and alien civilization might

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Speaker 1: be able to consume I guess so spend or hardness

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Speaker 1: or channel into one signal exactly. It's a way of

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Speaker 1: thinking through our possible future for our civilization. What does

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Speaker 1: that hold? What technology might we develop in the future

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Speaker 1: that gives us access to stars or many stars or

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Speaker 1: many universes. And so physicists have come up with or

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Speaker 1: at least some physicists have come up with a scale

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Speaker 1: to measure how much energy and alien civilization might be

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Speaker 1: able to tap into around them in where they live.

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Speaker 1: It's called the kar dash Off scale. It's not related

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Speaker 1: to the Kardashian Yeah. The scale is how many Kardashians

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Speaker 1: do you have on your social media? And so we've

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Speaker 1: currently maxed that out. We're leading the galaxy. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think one is maybe too many on that scale.

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Speaker 1: But it's a kardas chef kardash If how do you

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Speaker 1: pronounce it? I've heard it pronounced kardas chef. And it's

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Speaker 1: a popular trope inside it's fiction also because it's a

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Speaker 1: fun way of thinking about very powerful alien civilizations, and

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Speaker 1: so it crops up everywhere. And a bunch of listeners

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Speaker 1: wrote in and asked us to talk about the Cardassip scale.

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Speaker 1: And are you sure they weren't asking us to talk

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Speaker 1: to a Kardashian on the podcast because that would probably

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Speaker 1: put put us in the number one spot. I reached

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Speaker 1: out to all of them. None of them have responded,

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Speaker 1: all right, So then let's talk about this Cardaship scale

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Speaker 1: here on today's episode. And so, as usual, we were

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Speaker 1: wondering how many people out there had heard of this

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Speaker 1: scale and how it measures an alien civilizations possible energy use.

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Speaker 1: So thank you very much to everybody out there who

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Speaker 1: participates in these questions and answers. It's really fun for

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Speaker 1: us to hear what people are thinking. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: to participate for future episodes of the podcast, please don't

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Speaker 1: be shy right to us two questions at Daniel and

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Speaker 1: Jorge dot com. So think about it for a second,

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Speaker 1: what do you think a Cardiship scale is. Here's what

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Speaker 1: people have to say. I'm pretty sure I've heard of

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Speaker 1: the Cardassi of scale, but I am blanking on what

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Speaker 1: it is. Something in the back of my mind is

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Speaker 1: saying it's something about the size of stars or something

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Speaker 1: like that. I have no idea. I don't know, no

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Speaker 1: have any idea Kardashi of scale. No, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what the kardashi of scale is. But if I had

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Speaker 1: to take a kiss, I would say it is some

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Speaker 1: sort of high energy scale at which quantum effects become important,

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Speaker 1: like in a black hole or something because of the

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Speaker 1: or the very high energy density and also quantum property

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Speaker 1: has become important. All right, maybe we need a we

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Speaker 1: have no idea scale here, because everyone seemed to max

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Speaker 1: it out on the idol no scale. There really was

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Speaker 1: no recognition. I'm sort of amazed. It's given the number

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Speaker 1: of listeners who asked us to talk about this. The

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Speaker 1: listeners a happy example here had never heard of it. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's what we're here for, to talk about the Kardashians

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Speaker 1: and obscue or alien scales that measure their energy. I

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Speaker 1: wonder what the alien Kardashians are like, Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I kind of hope they don't have Kardashians. Maybe the

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Speaker 1: Kardashian scale is how much your civilization has jumped the shark. Well,

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Speaker 1: we have jumped the shark and the Bigfoot and the

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Speaker 1: Lockness monsters. So I think we're in big trouble. We're

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Speaker 1: due for cancelation any moment, the galactic Netflix is going

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Speaker 1: to pull our budget. Huh right, yeah, no, I want

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Speaker 1: to see what happens in season five thousand of Humanity.

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Speaker 1: Which season are we on? Now? I haven't been binging Humans.

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Speaker 1: I'm not cut up. Everyone's talking about it. Everyone's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you gotta watch this, you gotta see these kids. But

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Speaker 1: who has the time? You know? Spoiler alert, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people die. Sounds like a depressing show. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: jump into Daniel. What is the Cardaship scale? So the

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Speaker 1: Cardassia scale was suggested by a physicist Cardassian, of course,

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Speaker 1: that tries to imagine how civilizations will grow, specifically in

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Speaker 1: their energy use, in order to understand how much energy

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Speaker 1: they might have available to pump into signals to beam

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Speaker 1: to Earth so that we can discus robbed them. The

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Speaker 1: original Cardaship scale has a few stages. But in the

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Speaker 1: meantime people have built on this and expanded on it

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Speaker 1: and taken in all sorts of new directions. So sort

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Speaker 1: of fun framework for understanding how a civilization might grow

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Speaker 1: to tap into the natural energy available to us in

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Speaker 1: the universe. I see. Is it more like a scale

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Speaker 1: that measures how much energy a civilization uses or just

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Speaker 1: kind of keeps tab of where they would get this energy.

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Speaker 1: It's both. It's an accounting of how much energy is

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Speaker 1: available to a civilization, but of course there aren't infinite

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Speaker 1: arbitrary energy sources in the universe, and so it imagines

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Speaker 1: how they might find those sources of energy. And it's

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Speaker 1: broken into three categories. One where you think about all

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Speaker 1: the energy available on a planet, another way you think

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Speaker 1: about all the energy available in the solar system, and

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Speaker 1: then a third where you think about all of the

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Speaker 1: energy available in the galaxy. I see, So like a

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Speaker 1: stage one civilization is one that only has the energy

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Speaker 1: of a planet available to them, or alternatively, you assume

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Speaker 1: that they have access to all the energy that a

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Speaker 1: planet they can have. Yes, precisely, All right, well, let's

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Speaker 1: get into each of these stages and see where humans

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Speaker 1: are and where aliens might be at But first let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick break. All right, welcome back to our

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Speaker 1: podcast Baseless Speculation with Daniel and Jorge about Aliens The

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Speaker 1: first steps in understanding the universe with Daniel and Jorge.

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Speaker 1: I thought the first step was always observation. Daniel insights, well,

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Speaker 1: we've been trying to observe aliens, but we have zero data,

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Speaker 1: and so that's one thing we haven't tried to understand.

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Speaker 1: I see, step one is observed. Step two a is

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Speaker 1: if you don't observe anything, start making stuff up. Is

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Speaker 1: that what you're saying? Yeah, well, also if you don't

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Speaker 1: observe anything, try to understand why you didn't see something.

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Speaker 1: One thing that motivated Cardasi's paper was the famous Fermi paradox,

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Speaker 1: the idea that the galaxy is quite old, certainly old

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Speaker 1: enough for alien civilizations to have developed and beamed US signals,

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Speaker 1: and yet we haven't heard from any of them. So

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Speaker 1: Cardassian was motivated to think about, like, well, how would

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Speaker 1: they send us messages, would they actually have enough energy,

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Speaker 1: and how would they do it? So it's a way

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Speaker 1: of thinking about also why we haven't heard from aliens.

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Speaker 1: Nice see, it's kind of like we they haven't come visited.

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Speaker 1: Why would that be? And we can't see them why

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Speaker 1: would that be? And if you think about different scenarios,

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Speaker 1: maybe you can come up with a way that you

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Speaker 1: could see them exactly. And it might make the problem

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Speaker 1: harder because maybe you discover, oh, it's quite trivial for

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Speaker 1: aliens to have enough energy to beamas messages, and or

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Speaker 1: maybe you discover that in order for aliens to send

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Speaker 1: us messages from across the galaxy, they would have to

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Speaker 1: harness all the power of the entire galaxy. And that

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Speaker 1: might explain why we can't see Kardashians from other worlds,

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Speaker 1: which is a bad thing. No value judgements here, man,

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Speaker 1: this is just science. Well apparently this idea of how

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Speaker 1: much energy and alien species might be consuming or have

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Speaker 1: avail to them is all measured on something called the

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Speaker 1: Kardashi of scale, which, as you said, has three stages.

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Speaker 1: So let's step through these stages. What's stage number one?

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Speaker 1: And is that something we're at or are we pass

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Speaker 1: stage one? Where are we in this stage system? So?

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Speaker 1: Stage number one is a civilization that uses all of

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Speaker 1: the energy available on its planet, meaning all of the

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Speaker 1: solar energy for example, that hits the surface of the Earth.

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Speaker 1: We are not even at stage one. I mean we

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Speaker 1: are capturing some fraction of the solar energy, for example,

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Speaker 1: and digging up fossil fuels that have effectively stored solar

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Speaker 1: energy from the past. But on the Earth, what's available

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Speaker 1: to us is something like ten to the seventeen watts.

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Speaker 1: Watts is a unit of power, so it's energy per second.

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Speaker 1: Is that the kind of watt? It's like, if you

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Speaker 1: had a solar panel the size of the Earth, that's

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Speaker 1: how much energy we would be getting from the sun.

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Speaker 1: If yes, if you can cover the entire Earth with

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Speaker 1: solar panels, so you built like a solar panel that

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Speaker 1: completely made the Earth in shadow, that's how much energy

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Speaker 1: you could theoretically capture, or that's how much energy is

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Speaker 1: falling onto those solar pan Solar panels, of course not efficient,

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Speaker 1: but that's sort of like how much energy you have

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Speaker 1: access to m M And that's interesting how you said that. Basically,

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Speaker 1: like fossil fuels, even what we have here, maybe even

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Speaker 1: wind energy, it all comes from the Sun eventually, right,

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Speaker 1: All that energy originally does come from the sun. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: wind also comes from the sun because it involves heating

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Speaker 1: of pockets of air by the Sun, so all of

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Speaker 1: that originally does come from the Sun. There are, of course,

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Speaker 1: other sources of energy we could tap into on Earth

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Speaker 1: that are not directly from our Sun. Like when you

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Speaker 1: do fission, you're breaking apart uranium. That uranium was formed

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Speaker 1: in some other process, maybe the supernova or collisions of

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Speaker 1: neutron stars, well before our solar system was even birth.

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Speaker 1: So you're tapping into energy sources that have been stored

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Speaker 1: there for a long time. But you're saying all energy

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Speaker 1: solar energy. So when I'm at the gas station actually

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Speaker 1: pouring solar energy into my car, yeah, well, gas is

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Speaker 1: sort of like a solar battery. The idea of the

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Speaker 1: Cardaschef scale is not to argue that the maximum energy

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Speaker 1: you could get on Earth is just to cover it

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Speaker 1: with solar panels. It's just a way to sort of

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Speaker 1: set a level to fix the standard. There's actually more

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Speaker 1: energy available than that. If you could like take the

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Speaker 1: components of the Earth and you fission and fusion, you

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Speaker 1: could release even more energy than the sort of stage

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Speaker 1: one cardassief standard. But it's just sort of like how

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Speaker 1: to define a threshold, all right, So then is the

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Speaker 1: threshold defined by the solar energy we get from the Sun,

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Speaker 1: or like all the energy in all of the uranium

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Speaker 1: and heavy atoms, and maybe even the water, because if

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Speaker 1: you can figure out fusion, you could also fuse water

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Speaker 1: to make energy. Is that how you define how much

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Speaker 1: energy is available on planet Earth? No, it's just the

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Speaker 1: amount of solar energy that falls on planet Earth defines

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Speaker 1: the Cardassie of scale, so you can im principle exceed

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Speaker 1: it without leaving your planet. Right. For example, you could

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Speaker 1: achieve this by doing matter antimatter annihilation, right, Like two

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Speaker 1: kilograms of matter antimatter annihilation every second would achieve kardashef

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Speaker 1: Stage one energy levels even without doing any solar power.

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Speaker 1: But I wonder if maybe in his scale he was

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Speaker 1: more thinking about like long term sustainable energy sources, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: maybe we can figure out fission and fusion, but eventually

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Speaker 1: we're going to run out of these fuel elements in

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Speaker 1: on a single planet. But the Sun is going to

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Speaker 1: be burning for billions of years. That's true, although a

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Speaker 1: lot of these sources would last a really long time.

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Speaker 1: If for example, we could do fusion, you know, we'd

429
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 1: need like three ms of hydrogen fused per second to

430
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: reach Kardashiev stage one. That sounds like a lot, but

431
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 1: there's a lot of hydrogen out there on the planet.

432
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 1: You know, like a cubic kilometer of water has like

433
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: a hundred billion kilograms of hydrogen. So a cubic kilometer

434
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: of water is like hundreds of years of energy at

435
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 1: the kardashi of stage one. And there's a lot of

436
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: cubic kilometers of water out there, So even if you

437
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 1: were ignoring solar power, you could achieve this level and

438
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: do it for a long long time even without solar power.

439
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 1: I feel like you're trying to convince me that this

440
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 1: Cardashians scale is not really valid, are so I guess

441
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: what are you saying like or what is the scale

442
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: supposed to be measuring? Then the scale is just to

443
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: set a standard to say what could you achieve using

444
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: the energy of a planet. Obviously, how much energy you

445
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: could actually extract from a planet over billions of years

446
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: depends on what's in that planet, for example, how big

447
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 1: is that planet, how much mass is there. But this

448
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: is just like to set a standard in the end.

449
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: Of course it's arbitrary, but it's also a useful measure.

450
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: It's an approximate value just to sort of guide your thinking.

451
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: And you know, one thing to realize is that we

452
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 1: are far from that threshold here on Earth. If the

453
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: standard is two times ten of the seventeen watts, we're

454
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: about a factor of ten thousand below that. Human civilization

455
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: uses like ten to the thirteen watts, so we're well

456
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: below a stage one civilization. Okay, So these stages are

457
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: defined by wattage. So a stage one civilization is one

458
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: that uses approximately ten to the seventeen watts of energy.

459
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: Is that kind of how the scale works. It's like,

460
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 1: if you're a sialization and you're using about ten to

461
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: the seventeen wats of energy, then we'll categorize you as

462
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: a stage one and usually that made that will probably

463
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: mean you're an a range of like still stuck in

464
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: your planet exactly, that's what you're capable of, even if

465
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: you're stuck on your planet, right, your cable is something

466
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: of that order. Maybe you figured out matter and to

467
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 1: matter annihilation, maybe you figured out fusion. Maybe you've covered

468
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: your planet and solar panels. Maybe you've build space based

469
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 1: solar panels that then beam the energy down to Earth.

470
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 1: But if you're a very advancedabilization, but you're still on

471
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 1: your planet. That's sort of the order of magnitude of

472
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 1: energy that you have available to you. All right, So

473
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: then where are we You said we're below that maximum usage. Yeah,

474
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: we're about a factor of ten thousand below officially being

475
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: stage one crowned by the Galactic Empire as a baby civilization,

476
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: age one, Carl Stagan estimated they were like a type

477
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: zero point seven civilization on the carda chef scale, you like,

478
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: try to make it continuous instead of just having like

479
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: one to three. And the estimates that were around zero

480
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: point seven. And it's kind of like a logarithmic scale, right,

481
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: like difference between point seven and point it is. It's

482
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: partly like an order of magnitude or something. Yeah, he

483
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: was using a logarithmic extrapolation. And the reason is that

484
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 1: we tend to increase the consumption of energy bio civilization

485
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: fairly exponentially. Like in the last decade, energy use has

486
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: gone up by two point three percent every year. Every year,

487
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,959
Speaker 1: that's a larger increase because it's two of a bigger number,

488
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: And so people estimate that if we increase our energy

489
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: use every year by three percent, then in a hundred

490
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: and fifty or two hundred years, we would be at

491
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: type one civilization. I wonder if this scale also depends

492
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: on how many people there are, or how many individuals

493
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: of a certain species there are. Like you know, if

494
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: one person was using ten to the seventeen, watch must

495
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: be a super duper advanced civilization, right with you know,

496
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: one person being a control all this energy. But as

497
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: you know, there's like a trillion or trillion trillion people

498
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: then and each person is using a little bit of energy,

499
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: then maybe it's not that impressive a thing. Maybe alien

500
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 1: Kardashians are dominating the alien energy market. It's a good

501
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: question how they use is their energy? And I think

502
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: for a Kardashiv, the goal was to think about what

503
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: fraction of their energy they might devote to sending a

504
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: signal to outer space. If they have access to tend

505
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: to the seventeen watts of energy, maybe they would devote

506
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: one percent of it to pumping messages to the stars

507
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: or point oh one percent of it. But it just

508
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: sort of gives you a scale for what they have

509
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: access to. M all right, let's talk about what they

510
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: might use all this energy for. But I guess let's

511
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: step through the the rest of these stages. So if

512
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: we're like almost up stage one civilization, what would be

513
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: a stage to a civilization. Stage two would be too

514
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: unshackle yourself from your planet and then take advantage of

515
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: all the energy put out by your star. Now here

516
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: we are on Earth. Even if we gobbled up all

517
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: of the photons that come to the Earth from the Sun,

518
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: that's a tiny fraction of the Sun's energy. The Sun

519
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: is also shooting out photons that don't hit the Earth,

520
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: of course, and all sorts of directions, and so the

521
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: idea is capture all of the energy of your star,

522
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: not just the fraction that falls on your planet. So

523
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: stage two is like we've left the Earth and we're

524
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: living in space. Basically, you don't even have to leave

525
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: the Earth, and you don't have to live in space necessarily,

526
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: but you have to have somehow have the technology to

527
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: harness the energy of that star, which probably means building

528
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: some mega structure, like a bunch of solar panels that

529
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: envelope your star to gather all of that energy. Right,

530
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: But that would be a pretty big construction project. I mean,

531
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: you would need people living out there just to build

532
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: something so big or at least have the ability to like,

533
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, move around space pretty easily, which is a

534
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: lot more than what we can do now. We definitely

535
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: are nowhere close to doing that, and you probably would

536
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: need people out there, but you also might be able

537
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: to automate a lot of it. You could have robots,

538
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: for example, that build more robots and then build this

539
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: massive structure. It's hard to get your mind around the

540
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: sort of the size of this thing. This would be

541
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: the biggest thing anybody ever built. If you make it

542
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: really close to the Sun, it can be smaller, but

543
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: then it's subject to a lot of solar radiation. If

544
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: you make it further away from the Sun, then it's

545
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,239
Speaker 1: got to be like ridiculously massive. Like for example, if

546
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: you build this thing at one a U, so you

547
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: have like now a sphere whose radius is the radius

548
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: of the Earth's orbit, then the inside of this thing

549
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: is going to be five hundred and fifty million times

550
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: the surface area of the Earth. So imagine a construction

551
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: project that rebuilds the service that area of the Earth

552
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: five hundred and fifty million times. That's definitely not going

553
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 1: to be on budget or on schedule, right, Although the

554
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: positive thing is that it will always be sunny inside

555
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: of that sphere, right, just like here in southern California, yeah,

556
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: or Philadelphia. But I mean this is sort of like

557
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: one way that you could harness the power of the Sun,

558
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: which is to build a giant solar panel that basically

559
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: like envelops the Sun so you can capture all of

560
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: its energy. And what does that take us up to

561
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: in terms of watta? So Stage one, remember was ten

562
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: to the seventeen watts. Stage two using all the energy

563
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: available from the Sun is like four times ten to

564
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: the twenty six watts. So that's like a billion times

565
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: or two billion times more energy than Stage one. Really

566
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: only a billion times to go from the Earth to

567
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: the Sun. Only a billion times more energy. Wow, you

568
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: don't seem impressed. Well, as in the Earth super tiny

569
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: compared to the Sun. The Earth is certainly super tiny

570
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: compared to the Sun. But the sort of cross sectional

571
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: area of the Earth, which is the fraction of the

572
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: Sun's energy that it captures, is approximately one billion of

573
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: the surface area of a sphere whose radius is the

574
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: orbit of the Earth. That's why if you built the

575
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: Dicen sphere, it had to be like many hundreds of

576
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: millions of times the surface area of the Earth to

577
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: cover the inside of that sphere. So a fact of

578
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: a billion is about right. But again, this is just

579
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: solar energy. Like, we could probably maybe get to that

580
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: level of wattage if we figure a fusion or fission

581
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: more efficiently right here on Earth. It's conceptionally possible to

582
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: achieve a stage to civilization to get that same level

583
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: of energy without building the dicensphere, developing some other way

584
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: to extract energy from within the Earth, you know, antimatter

585
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: or fusion or something else. Crazy. Again, this is just

586
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: sort of like a scale. The Sun is the cheapest,

587
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: most abundant, easiest to identify source of energy in the

588
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: solar system, So what could you do if you could

589
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: capture all of the energy that it produces? Right? All right, Well,

590
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: let's step through quickly. What are some of these other stages?

591
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: If you use all the energy in the Sun, where

592
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: do you go from there? All the energy in the galaxy? Yes,

593
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: exactly where else could you go except from our star

594
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: to all the other stars? So Kardashian's stage three says,

595
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: use all the energy in the galaxy, which basically is

596
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: like all the energy in each individual star, and that

597
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: takes you up another eleven orders of magnitude. Another factor

598
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: of a hundred billion to four times tend to the

599
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: thirty seven watts. Member Stage one, which we're not even

600
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: at is tend to the seventeen watts. So now we're

601
00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: talking about twenty orders of magnitude more energy than the

602
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: Stage one. Like somehow, if you have solar panels around

603
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: every star in the galaxy, then you could harness all

604
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: of the light that is coming out of a particular galaxy.

605
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: Right in principle, if you didn't think building a dicen

606
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: sphere was a big enough construction project, you could build

607
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: one around every single star in the galaxy. I can't

608
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: even say it without laughing at such a ridiculous idea.

609
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: But in principle, if you develop the machines to build

610
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: more machines to complete your dicensphere project, they could just

611
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: go off to the rest of the galaxy and keep working.

612
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: Maybe your robots are like a virus. Once they start

613
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: building dicen spheres, they just don't stop. That sounds like

614
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: a negative thing to snuff out the whole galaxy basically, right, Yeah,

615
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: it depends on what you do with that, you know,

616
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: if the robots developed these dicen spears and then channel

617
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: the energy to you for you to use for good

618
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: for building your civilization and feeding your people, etcetera. Awesome.

619
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: If they just harness the energy the galaxy and snuff

620
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: it out, then yeah, the galaxy is going to go dark, right,

621
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: All the stars would be burning inside these dice in spheres.

622
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: There'll be no more light being released for like astronomy

623
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 1: and star gazing and romantic dinners. Well, you can imagine

624
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: maybe an alien civilization doing this, and we haven't meagined

625
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: then apparently, and we I think we've talked about this

626
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: also in our podcast about this possibility, but maybe let's

627
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about why this is kind of

628
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: relevant right to our question of aliens and do they

629
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: exist and could we see them out there? Because the

630
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: ideas and not just that there's an alien realization using

631
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: all this energy, but maybe they're using it in a

632
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: way that would allow us to communicate with them or

633
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: at least see them, right exactly, having aliens out there

634
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: in the universe is not enough for us to discover them.

635
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: We need to get signals from them and at least

636
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: up till now we've relied on messages from electromagnetic radiation.

637
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: That's what we're looking for. You know, the search for

638
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: extraterrestrial intelligence is scanning the sky for messages essentially in

639
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: the radio waves, and to produce those radio waves takes energy.

640
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: When you're a radio station is pumping out music that

641
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: you like over the airwaves, they're doing so by running

642
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: an antenna, by sending electricity up and down that antenna,

643
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: by wiggling those electrons so that they radiate the photons

644
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: that you pick up. You know how some radio stations

645
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: are very powerful and other radio stations you can't really

646
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: pick up in some areas. That's because some have more

647
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: powerful broadcast antennas because they spend more money to build

648
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: more antennas and use more energy. So in order to

649
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: be heard a further distance, you need more energy. Well,

650
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: I guess maybe I don't understand the scenario that you're

651
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 1: imagining here. Are you imagining like there's an alien civilization

652
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: using all this energy, maybe all the energy in a

653
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: galaxy and somehow we can pick up on that, or

654
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: is this scenario more specific where you're imagining like, all right,

655
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: if there are aliens broadcasting out like hey we're here, signal.

656
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: How much energy would they have available to put into

657
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: that so that we could hope to see it? I

658
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: think Cardiship is imagining the second one, that if aliens

659
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: are intentionally sending out messages in the cosmos, how powerful

660
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: could they make those messages? And what kind of civilizations

661
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: could support ridiculously powerful messages that we could even hear

662
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: from across the galaxy or from other galaxies. I mean,

663
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: a civilization that harnessed the entire energy of their galaxy

664
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: could do incredible things, probably including sending very powerful messages

665
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: across the millions of light years between galaxies. But also,

666
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, like galactic engineering projects, and you have that

667
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: much energy available, you can almost do anything, right. I

668
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: guess that's a whole separate question is like, would they

669
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: use some of that energy to send out a signal

670
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: to other people saying, hey, come check out our awesome engineering. Yeah,

671
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: I mean, would we write we're currently using a very

672
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,479
Speaker 1: very tiny fraction of our energy budget to even listen

673
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: to messages from outer space. We're not even really sending

674
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: very many, at least not intentionally. You know, as you

675
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: said before, our use of energy makes us visible from

676
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: other planets, but not from very far away, because those

677
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: messages are not broadcast in like a tight beam that

678
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: sort of generally diffused, and so you have to be

679
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: pretty close to Earth or have very very sensitive antennas

680
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: to even pick up our messages. And I guess you're

681
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,919
Speaker 1: also imagining, or Cardachip was imagining the scenario where you're

682
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: broadcasting blindly, right, Like, if you're broadcasting blindly in all

683
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: possible directions and your hope that somebody listens to it,

684
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: how much energy would you need for that? But if

685
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: you want a more focused communication, then you wouldn't need that, right,

686
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. If you don't know where people are,

687
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: you need to broadcast in every direction, and so the

688
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: power of your message falls very quickly. It goes like

689
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: one over distance squared, just like the brightness of the

690
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: sun falls as you get further and further away from it,

691
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: because the sun is not like focused like a laser

692
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: beam on your eyeball. And a good thing too, So

693
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: if you're broadcasting your message indiscriminately in every direction, then

694
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: it has to be super powerful for anybody to pick

695
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: it up. And it's a concrete example. The signals that

696
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: we sent from a recibo could only be received by

697
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: an Arecibo like telescope if it was less than one

698
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: light year away. And we know that there aren't any

699
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: other solar systems less than a light year away, so

700
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: aliens with our level of technology could not pick up

701
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,479
Speaker 1: our signals even if they were around the closest star.

702
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: M interesting. All right, Well, let's get into what this

703
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: could mean for our search for extraterrestrial life and whether

704
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: or not there are chartsians in other galaxies. That's a

705
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: very important question. But first let's take another quick break.

706
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: All right, we're talking about the Cardashian scale, which is

707
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: a scale that physicists have invented as a way to

708
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: think about how much energy alien civilizations might be consuming

709
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: or have available to them to send out, Hey, we're

710
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: here a signal which we might be able to pick up,

711
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: which I guess is important, right because if we have

712
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 1: a whole project called set to explore or to look

713
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: for alien signals, it would be good to know if

714
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: we even have a chance of seeing signals from other

715
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 1: alien civilizations, right exactly. And it's a kind of thought

716
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: experiment that physicists like to think about. Let's make some

717
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: simple assumptions about the trajectory of civilizations and think about

718
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: who we're looking for. Are we looking for a fairly

719
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: young civilization like our own. Are we more likely to

720
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 1: only be able to spot very advanced civilizations. So let's

721
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: try to spend a minute or so thinking about what

722
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: they might look like, how they might communicate, and what

723
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: technology they might have available to them. Right, And like

724
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: you said, like if we were to send a signal

725
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: out to another story, we would need a ton of

726
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: energy because the nearest star system is more than a

727
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: light year way, which means we would need a lot

728
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: of energy. So I guess to see an alien civilization

729
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: in another galaxy, or to hope to see an Asian

730
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: civilization in another galaxy sending out a signal that they're there,

731
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: we would need to imagine an alien civilization pretty advanced, right,

732
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: with an access to an enormous amount of energy. That's right,

733
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: unless we were extraordinarily lucky and we happen to resolve

734
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: a single star in their galaxy and see them do

735
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: some crazy construction project on it, or they were manipulating

736
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: the star itself to pulse with messages that we could resolve.

737
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 1: That would require crazy advanced technology and access to energy

738
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: that we can't even imagine. Yeah, some fraction of all

739
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: the energy of a galaxy. And so that's where the

740
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: Kardaship scale would say. It's like that's another stage in

741
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: that scale, which is like, if you can harness all

742
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: of the energy in the galaxy, then maybe you might

743
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: put some of that energy to putting out a signal

744
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: which would make you visible to aliens or to humans

745
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: in other galaxies. Right, Yeah, maybe you have a prison

746
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: planet where you put all of your Kardashians and you

747
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: just want big flash and warning signs like do not

748
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: go here, young civilizations. I feel like you just took

749
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: it to another level against the Cardashians there. Now you're

750
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: talking about jailing them in planets. Remember we want them

751
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: on the podcast on Yeah, sorry, I'm talking about a

752
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: luxurious island just for alien Kardashians, private planet. Yes, and

753
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: you get to hang out with the Lockness Monster and

754
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: pick Foot also future guests on our podcast. Yeah, that's right,

755
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: stay tuned, keep listening. But this kind of thinking lets

756
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: you imagine the kinds of things that aliens might be

757
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 1: able to do if you have access to all the

758
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: energy of your solar system or at your galaxy, you

759
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: could like move stars around, you could like obliterate planets.

760
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: You can build new kinds of stars nobody had ever

761
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: seen before. You could have a whole new branch of engineering,

762
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, galaxy engineering. Yeah, and so that takes us

763
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: to about stage three in the Cardaship scale. Right, that's

764
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 1: where you may be built toller panels around every star

765
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: in your galaxy. Is there a stage four? Can you

766
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 1: go bigger than that? Let's keep basically speculating. You want

767
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: to extrapolate our extrapolation, Sure, let's do it well. Cardasship

768
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: have ended his extrapolation at stage three, imagining only use

769
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: of the entire galaxy. But that was the nineteen sixty

770
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: and it's been a popular topic for people to think about,

771
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 1: and so there have been extensions to the Kardaship scale.

772
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: Stage four says, what if you could use all the

773
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: energy in the universe? What is in the universe potentially infinite?

774
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: It is potentially infinite, absolutely, And this stage imagines not

775
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 1: just capturing all of the energy from all the stars

776
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: in each galaxy, but also somehow tapping into that mysterious

777
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: form of energy, dark energy, which is accelerating the expansion

778
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: of the universe and has a much bigger slice of

779
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: the universe's energy budget than just the paltry matter in stars,

780
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 1: which you might remember accounts for less than five percent

781
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: of the energy in the universe. Right, All the matter

782
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: in our universe only counts for five percent. Right, And

783
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: there's also dark matter and dark energy. Are you saying, like,

784
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: even if we harness all the energy coming out of

785
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: the stars of a galaxy, and even if you take

786
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: all of the energy in the matter of that galaxy,

787
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: that's still only five percent of all the energy available

788
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: to you someone, Right, Yeah, And so if you want

789
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 1: to think big, right, then let's attack the biggest slice

790
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: of the pie. And most of the energy of the

791
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: universe is in dark energy. Sevent of all the energy

792
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: in the universe is now devoted to accelerating the expansion

793
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: of the universe. If you want to build a really

794
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: big engineering project, you might as well start with the

795
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: biggest slice. I wonder if maybe dark energy isn't engineering project, Daniel,

796
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: I mean, if a Slies were basically speculating, I'm gonna

797
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: speculated dark energy is just aliens making the universe bigger. Well,

798
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: that's a really clear idea, but you're not actually the

799
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: first one to have it. One physicist Zoltan Gallantaie argued

800
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: that if there are civilizations that can do that, they

801
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 1: could not be detected because their activities would be indistinguishable

802
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: from the workings of the universe. We have no baseline

803
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: to compare them. To write, we are assuming that the

804
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: universe is driven mostly by natural processes. But if there

805
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: are civilizations out there that are type four and they've

806
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: been playing games with the universe, then that's what we've

807
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: been observing this entire your time. Are you saying that

808
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: the laws of physics are indistinguishable from the workings of

809
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: a mysterious being. You're making the case for God basically, well,

810
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: these civilizations would have almost godlike powers. We think they

811
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: would still be constrained by the laws of physics. But remember,

812
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: we don't know what those laws are. We have no

813
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: understanding of dark energy. Really, we see that this is happening,

814
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: but we do not understand the mechanism for it or

815
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: what is controlling it. So it is potentially possible that

816
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: there's an alien civilization out there with some knob and

817
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: they are driving the expansion of the universe. I mean

818
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: This is speculation on speculation, absolutely, but yes, we don't

819
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: understand the mechanism of it, so it could be down

820
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: to some alien civilization. This is a reduction of speculations

821
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: that what you're saying, we're going deep. Yeah, and there

822
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: are more levels. What what could be more powerful than

823
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: all the energy in the universe? Well, Stage five says,

824
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: use all the energy in the multiverse? Right, Why be

825
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: limited to a single universe when apparently there's an infinite

826
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: number of possible universes out there for you to harness

827
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: and manipulate. Yeah, why not, let's go there. So this

828
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: is a saving that the multiverse exists and that somehow

829
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: some alien cilvercision has access to all of these different

830
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: universes and also have the ability to harness their energy.

831
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: You sound incredulous, and that's for a good reason, because

832
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: it's a pretty ridiculous idea. You're right, we don't even

833
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: know if the multiverse exists, Like, are there other universes

834
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: out there? If the multiverse does exist, is it the

835
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: flavor of multiverse that would allow us to communicate with

836
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: other universes? There are some in which these universes are

837
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: forever separate and can never communicate with each other, and

838
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: so that would prevent any alien civilization from harness and them.

839
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: For example, the quantum multiverse from the Many Worlds interpretation

840
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics says that the universe splits every time

841
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: a quantum object has to make a decision. But you

842
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: can't ever access those other universes. But in principle there

843
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: are versions of the multiverse, or the other universes could

844
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: interact with ours, and so in principle, some aliens might

845
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: figure out how to manipulate those portals and somehow have

846
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: a cross universe civilization. I guess, though, well two things.

847
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: First of all, I guess if you're using all the

848
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: energy that in the universe, wouldn't you be taking away

849
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: that energy? Like if you're somehow using the dark energy

850
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: in our universe, wouldn't that stop the expansion of the

851
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: universe potentially? Or maybe the dark energy is just like

852
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: a waste product of something else they're doing. Maybe this

853
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: is just like the crumbs on their table. I mean,

854
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: let's think really big. I said, you're saying the expansion

855
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: of the universe is a byproduct of whatever nefarious or

856
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: maybe or I guess we can't judge pre judge, but whatever,

857
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: you know, thing it is they're doing with the inherent

858
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: energy of the universe. Is that what you're saying, like,

859
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: maybe there's something deeper than dark energy, and dark energy

860
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: is just like the smog of whatever process they're using

861
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: to to steal the use the energy of the universe.

862
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,479
Speaker 1: M I'm just trying to anticipate what's going to happen

863
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: in season sixty million when we're only on season five thousand,

864
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 1: so obviously there's a lot of dot dot dot happening.

865
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, potentially, are you equating us to like online

866
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: forums where people are posting fan theories. Is that all

867
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 1: physics is fan theories? I think I saw that in

868
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 1: a comic strip somewhere. Yeah, exactly, that's x ca CD.

869
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: All theories are just fan fiction about the universe, And

870
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: in some sense, yes, that's what's happening here. We're trying

871
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: to imagine what an alien statilization might be, like, what

872
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: are the limits on it? Essentially, we're not suggesting that

873
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: there are aliens out there manipulating the universe and controlling

874
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: it and that dark energy is just their pollution, but

875
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: we're just trying to push up against the boundaries of

876
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 1: our thinking and wondering what is possible in the end,

877
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: Do we have arguments that suggest that that would be impossible?

878
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: Because if not, let's keep an open mind to what

879
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: might be happening out there. The second thing I want

880
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,320
Speaker 1: to say was that I feel like that would have

881
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,959
Speaker 1: been a fun sequel to the matrix to find out

882
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: that actually our universe is just like a battery for

883
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 1: somebody else's universe. Oh, the meta matrix. Yeah, the multi matrix,

884
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: the multi meta matrix. I like it. It's that one,

885
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: all right. Well, this cardiship scale is a pretty interesting

886
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 1: way to think about aliens, what they might be doing,

887
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: how big they can get, or I guess, you know,

888
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: just pushing the idea of what can a sentient species

889
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 1: do in the universe, like what's possible for a sentient

890
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: entity or entities? Yeah, and it leaves completely aside the

891
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: very important question of what a sentient entity should do

892
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 1: with the universe. If you are capable of building Dyson

893
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: spheres that completely blot out every star in the sky,

894
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: should you is that the right use for your technology?

895
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: Should you be measuring your civilization by how much energy

896
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: of the universe you can capture for your own purposes.

897
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: Maybe alien civilizations have taken another route, trying to live

898
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: harmoniously with the universe rather than trying to manipulate it

899
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: for their own ends. Wait, are you calling God an alien? Technically? Um,

900
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: God would be an alien right unless they were born

901
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: on Earth. I don't know how you can have the

902
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: word technically god an alien in the same sentence. I

903
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: just don't get into I don't get it either. But

904
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 1: this is a natural sciences podcast, so I think that's allowed. Technically,

905
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 1: Bigfoot is a lockness monster. That's right. Technically it's all

906
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: natural science because it's being talked about naturally by scientists,

907
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: so therefore it is natural science. Yeah, and this is

908
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 1: sort of the way that physicists think about civilizations. How

909
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: much energy do we have? How much energy is available

910
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: to us? It's of course not the only way to

911
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: think about civilizations. And one thing we're trying to do

912
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: in our civilization is actually tamped down our energy use. Right, Well,

913
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: we talked earlier about how every year we increase our

914
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: energy used by three percent, and that might take us

915
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 1: to stage one civilization. Don't think about that like a goal.

916
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: It's not like a bad We're gonna put on our civilization. Hey, look,

917
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: we increased our energy used by ten thousand. Yeah. Right,

918
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: that would probably be a bad thing for life on

919
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: Earth if we were using so much energy. Yeah, or

920
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: be bad if we were using all the energy in

921
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: the universe and then stopping expansion and then accidentally, oops,

922
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: we caused the universe to contract and crunch down. Was

923
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: that us who made the whole universe collapse into the

924
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 1: black hole? Our apologies. Please take this voucher and try

925
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: civilization in another one of our multiverses. We should have

926
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: gone green much sooner. All right. Well, it's definitely fun

927
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: and interesting to think about these wild and crazy scenarios.

928
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: But as you said, it is a little bit part

929
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: of science to imagine what could be possible, because you

930
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: might come up with something that you didn't think about

931
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: before that maybe shapes the future experiment or how you

932
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: look for answers in the universe. Yeah. And while we

933
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: sometimes think about natural science as very rigorous and found

934
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: it in experiments and high precision, an important part of

935
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: it which is just creative and exploratory and wondering about

936
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: what is possible. Sometimes the most fun parts of science

937
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: are when you're tackling a really big question that nobody

938
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: has tackled before, and so you have to begin with

939
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: a few crazy, fairly simple ideas. Many things just fun

940
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: to talk about Indians, which I think, let's be honest, Dan,

941
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: is really the main point of your choosing your topic. Yes,

942
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,959
Speaker 1: I always do enjoy talking about aliens, and I hope

943
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: that the aliens listening to this podcast enjoy our baselist

944
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: speculation about their lives and motives. That's right, And if

945
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: the Kardashians are aliens, they're also welcome to come on

946
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: the podcast. Open invitation to any Kardashian or Alien and

947
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: or alien. All right, well, we hope you enjoyed that.

948
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, See you next time. Thanks for listening,

949
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is

950
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. Or more podcast from

951
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. Visit the I Heart Radio, Apple Apple Podcasts,

952
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H