Speaker 1: It's see some of the much podcast. I'm your host.
Speaker 1: Claude Harmon, my guest this week, is a six time
Speaker 1: winner on the PGA Tour, won the Payne Stewart Award
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, and has been the voice of
Speaker 1: basically the voice of golf for you know, really since
Speaker 1: the nineties. Gary Man, it was good to have you
Speaker 1: back on TV. I know it's only brief these days,
Speaker 1: but as someone that loved your work and stuff, I mean,
Speaker 1: we miss you, man, the fans miss you being on TV,
Speaker 1: and it was great to have you back. Well.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. First of all, thank you very much
Speaker 2: for the compliments. You know, I tell a lot of
Speaker 2: people it's fun getting to come back and call the
Speaker 2: golf and talk about golf. But the really fun part
Speaker 2: for me is to come back and see the people
Speaker 2: when you're no longer there, and a part of it
Speaker 2: you start to reflect. And you know, I played for
Speaker 2: sixteen years and I did television for close to thirty two.
Speaker 2: In that period of time, I mean you make a
Speaker 2: lot of friends, players, caddies, instructors, tour officials, tournament directors,
Speaker 2: you know, so forth and so on. Then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden when you're not there, you realize that was
Speaker 2: the only time you got to see people. So coming
Speaker 2: back players this year of Al's bar Us open great
Speaker 2: opportunity for me to catch up, see a lot of
Speaker 2: folks that I don't get to see anymore, check on
Speaker 2: how they're doing and what's going on, and.
Speaker 3: That to me is probably my favorite part.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think people realize that, aren't you
Speaker 1: know part of you know, the tour like we are
Speaker 1: and how much a part of our lives it's been
Speaker 1: that it is one big, kind of giant traveling circus,
Speaker 1: from the players every single week, to the caddies every
Speaker 1: single week, to people like me on the back end,
Speaker 1: the agents, and then you know, when you do television,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean I did Sky Sky Sports Golf
Speaker 1: for a number of years. The bonds that you make
Speaker 1: with the crew and the television people that you work
Speaker 1: day in and day out, I mean, I still I
Speaker 1: got has to do some sky over the last two
Speaker 1: majors and it was great coming back into the compound
Speaker 1: and seeing everybody and so I hear you the US
Speaker 1: Open Man. That was a throwback. It was like we
Speaker 1: were back in the in the glory days of the
Speaker 1: US Open. First of all, Oakmon is a golf course,
Speaker 1: such amazing history there, Gary, What do you like about
Speaker 1: that golf course? And what do you like about that venue?
Speaker 1: Because I just can't think of a harder golf course
Speaker 1: really anywhere on the planet Earth the way they set
Speaker 1: it up and the tests that it demands. But it
Speaker 1: really did feel like we were back to the old
Speaker 1: school days of the USGA. And I think everybody Gary
Speaker 1: got there last week and thought, yeah, even Parr wins
Speaker 1: this easy. What did you like about the setup last week?
Speaker 1: And what did you like about maybe kind of going
Speaker 1: back to that old school kind of USGA bloodbaths setup.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say the first thing I really liked
Speaker 2: there was no graduated rough you know, it was just
Speaker 2: either you were in the fairway or you were in
Speaker 2: the really tall stuff. So it really put a lot
Speaker 2: of pressure on the te shots, which which I liked
Speaker 2: to see. To me, that was always part of the
Speaker 2: US Open. One of the reasons why Lee Trevino had
Speaker 2: so much success in because he could hit the fairways,
Speaker 2: and you know, Jack Nicholas same thing success in the
Speaker 2: US Opened a lot of times wouldn't hit drivers a
Speaker 2: lot of one irons, a lot of three woods off
Speaker 2: the tee, but always making sure that he was playing
Speaker 2: from the fairway. So that was probably the first thing
Speaker 2: that I noticed when I got there and started walking
Speaker 2: around the golf course was like, you know, this reminds
Speaker 2: me of the days when I used to play in
Speaker 2: the US Open. You either hit the fairway or you
Speaker 2: were in a lot of trouble. I like Oakmand from
Speaker 2: the standpoint that it is difficult, There's no question about it.
Speaker 3: I would agree with you.
Speaker 2: I think it's the hardest golf course certainly in the
Speaker 2: United States on a day in and day out basis.
Speaker 2: I mean, the members are crazy. They love the green
Speaker 2: at fourteen fourteen and a half every day, they light
Speaker 2: the rough high, they love the penal bunkers. It is
Speaker 2: just that hard a golf course. It certainly tested the
Speaker 2: players not only from their skill level with the ability
Speaker 2: to hit a golf ball, but it tested them as
Speaker 2: far as their mental capabilities as well, the ability to
Speaker 2: maintain your composure, to maintain your concentration, to accept the
Speaker 2: fact that sometimes you were just going to have to
Speaker 2: pitch out of the rough and down the fairway and
Speaker 2: try to make what we always used to call a
Speaker 2: US Open par which was a wedge out and then
Speaker 2: another wedge to the green and hopefully you get a
Speaker 2: chance to make the pipe. So from that standpoint, I
Speaker 2: thought it was great.
Speaker 3: I really did.
Speaker 2: I'm a little concerned that they went back out and
Speaker 2: played the last six or seven holes when they did,
Speaker 2: But other than that, I thought it was a great
Speaker 2: US Open.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, Gary, from your standpoint is a former player,
Speaker 1: as someone that's won, You've won on big golf courses Bahill,
Speaker 1: Tory and stuff like that. But as a former player,
Speaker 1: as a fan, but also as a broadcaster, what do
Speaker 1: you want major championships to test from the best players
Speaker 1: in the world. What do you think these great players
Speaker 1: were the best in the game, right? I mean it's
Speaker 1: not even close. And I think you know the game
Speaker 1: and Lynch sent they sent somebody out to go play
Speaker 1: on the Monday that was a legit, you know, scratch
Speaker 1: golfer and started to bake ninety. I mean, first of all,
Speaker 1: I don't think the fans can appreciate just how hard
Speaker 1: not only all majors are, but that test. But what
Speaker 1: do you want majors to identify.
Speaker 2: From the players, Well, I think, first of all, I've
Speaker 2: always felt like each major has kind of its own personality.
Speaker 2: When I think of the Masters, I think of the
Speaker 2: back nine, and I think of the opportunities on the
Speaker 2: back nine for eagles and Verdi's, but also for disasters
Speaker 2: as well. When I think of the Open Championship, I
Speaker 2: think of the weather conditions. You know, they play such
Speaker 2: a huge part and how the event goes about. PGA
Speaker 2: to me, has always been what I would call the
Speaker 2: tamest of the majors. The setup usually allows for some
Speaker 2: pretty good scoring, but the US Open is always about
Speaker 2: the difficulty and making sure that it is the most
Speaker 2: difficult of the four majors. They accomplished that this year
Speaker 2: and again I think you want to see in a
Speaker 2: major championship, you want to see great shots. Don't get
Speaker 2: me wrong. I mean, you know, you want to see
Speaker 2: these guys be able to perform what they're capable of doing,
Speaker 2: and as you say, they do some amazing things that
Speaker 2: I would agree. I don't think the average viewer understands
Speaker 2: just how good these guys actually are and some of
Speaker 2: the shots that they actually play. I mean, just from
Speaker 2: my generation of players to what I watch now, there
Speaker 2: are times where I literally shake my head and just go, wow,
Speaker 2: that's pretty unbelievable. You know, when I see a guy
Speaker 2: take a threewood off the ground and carry the ball
Speaker 2: two hundred and eighty five two hundred ninety yards in
Speaker 2: the air, I mean, that's mind boggling to me. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, back in my day, a good drive by
Speaker 2: the longest drivers hit at two hundred and eighty five
Speaker 2: yards off the tee.
Speaker 3: And now.
Speaker 2: And now these guys are hitting it farther than that
Speaker 2: off the ground with a three wood. So you know,
Speaker 2: you want to see that, but you also want to
Speaker 2: see them tested. You want to see them have to
Speaker 2: think a little bit. You want to see them have to,
Speaker 2: as I said at the US Open, maintain your concentration,
Speaker 2: your composure, and every now and then.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't want.
Speaker 2: A steady diet of US Open golf, you know, no question.
Speaker 2: I don't think the fans would like that either. But
Speaker 2: every now and then it's fun to see the best
Speaker 2: in the world tested the way they were there at
Speaker 2: opont and to see if they can, you know, accept
Speaker 2: the fact that you know, being in the fairway two
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five yards off the tea was better
Speaker 2: than being in the rough three hundred and twenty yards
Speaker 2: off the team most of the time where they play,
Speaker 2: that's not the case.
Speaker 1: Where's the line in your opinion, Gary on fair versus unfair?
Speaker 1: Because there are these US opens that we've seen in
Speaker 1: history to where it seems like, okay, there's that conversation
Speaker 1: late on the weekends, Okay, is the golf course getting
Speaker 1: away from the championship? And then how much of the
Speaker 1: green complexes, certainly at a place like Oakmont where they
Speaker 1: can get those greens so fast, and you know the
Speaker 1: squareness of some of those greens, which is so weird
Speaker 1: to see, you know a few of the holes at
Speaker 1: Oakmont with the square greens. But where do you kind
Speaker 1: of come in on the balance of fair versus from
Speaker 1: a conditioned setup, wise from the rough standpoint, from how
Speaker 1: fast they can get the greens? Because I was talking
Speaker 1: to friend, the head of the USCA, on the Monday
Speaker 1: night and he said, what do you think the players
Speaker 1: want from us from setting up the golf course? And
Speaker 1: I said, you know, whenever I talk to players, they
Speaker 1: don't mind the golf course being hard. They don't mind
Speaker 1: it being a tough test. But what they don't want
Speaker 1: is to hit a good shot and then get punished
Speaker 1: for it and then be made to look stupid. So
Speaker 1: the balance on the setup between what's fair and what's not.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't control the weather, right, you can't
Speaker 1: control and it was soft and okmont I mean, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: they had rain and then on the Sunday it got
Speaker 1: really soft. If they have no rain for seven days,
Speaker 1: I don't know how anybody would have finished five over.
Speaker 2: Right, right, And and you think about it, I mean
Speaker 2: that's what Cabrera won with that year. He won with
Speaker 2: five over. And the golf course is that tight. I
Speaker 2: think the USGA, you know, especially with their desire to
Speaker 2: make the golf course as difficult as possible but still fair.
Speaker 2: Often time, I shouldn't say maybe not oftentimes, but sometimes
Speaker 2: they get so close to the edge that when mother
Speaker 2: nature doesn't cooperate, all of a sudden, it kind of
Speaker 2: goes overboard and it gets and it gets it's.
Speaker 3: Away from them.
Speaker 2: And you know, we've seen examples of that at Shinnecock
Speaker 2: a couple of times. You know, Pinehurst the one year
Speaker 2: years ago when Michael Campbell won was was pretty close
Speaker 2: to that. It got really firm and really fast, and
Speaker 2: I understand as a player, you know, you want to
Speaker 2: be rewarded for good shots. You don't want to be punished.
Speaker 3: You know. Embarrassment, Well, you know that kind of comes
Speaker 3: with the US Open.
Speaker 2: I hate to say it. I had many a moment
Speaker 2: at the US Open where I was more than embarrassed.
Speaker 2: So you know, that really notts something you can control.
Speaker 2: The one thing I didn't like at the Open last
Speaker 2: week at Oakmont and talking to Gil Hands, Gill said,
Speaker 2: you know, they went back in the design and the
Speaker 2: photos from the phones era and so forth and so on,
Speaker 2: and they had a lot of these steep edges coming
Speaker 2: off the green to where the ball would go down
Speaker 2: into the bunker, and by growing the rough so long
Speaker 2: around the greens and around some of the bunkers, it
Speaker 2: prevented balls from actually going into the sand. Classic example
Speaker 2: to me was Tyrrell Hatton on the seventy first hole
Speaker 2: hit a drive and it was and it wasn't a
Speaker 2: great drive. It was not a great drive, but he
Speaker 2: actually missed it in the right place. If the ball
Speaker 2: goes down into the bunker, it's a relatively easy bunker shot.
Speaker 2: He's got plenty of green to work with. You know,
Speaker 2: the chances are he's going to have a probably ten
Speaker 2: foot birdie putter less, but the five and a half
Speaker 2: inch rough grabs it. And now it's sitting on a
Speaker 2: straight downhill lie where you know, the green's up above him,
Speaker 2: probably eight or ten feet, And yeah, I mean, the
Speaker 2: chances of him getting that ball on the green, we're
Speaker 2: almost not. We saw another example of it on the
Speaker 2: thirteenth hole of the part three one day, Xander Schoffley
Speaker 2: hit a T shot that was pulled. It wasn't a
Speaker 2: great shot by any means, but it just trickled off
Speaker 2: the green to the left and rather than going down
Speaker 2: into the bunker, it hung up on this almost vertical
Speaker 2: face and this five and a half in he had
Speaker 2: to chip the ball away from the hole. He couldn't
Speaker 2: even chip it toward the hole because he didn't know
Speaker 2: if he could keep it on the green from that position. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I think sometimes they maybe go a little
Speaker 2: too far, and especially if you've just gone through this
Speaker 2: restoration to try to create this situation to where the
Speaker 2: bulk goes into the bunker and now you've grown grass
Speaker 2: that prevents it from going in the bunker. To me,
Speaker 2: that's probably a little over the top.
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes when I mean, I listen, if
Speaker 1: you want to go the rough up off petite to
Speaker 1: put a premium on you know, hitting the golf ball
Speaker 1: in the fairway, I mean, okay, you can, you can
Speaker 1: make an argument for that. But it seems to me
Speaker 1: sometimes when we have US Open rough, right, there is
Speaker 1: a term called us Oh yeah, You'll go to a
Speaker 1: regular golf course like Memorial, and you'll sometimes at Memorial
Speaker 1: in summertime, you'll look around and you'll say, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is like US Open rough. Well, do you feel maybe
Speaker 1: at times the rough being so penal around the greens
Speaker 1: and so thick? Is there an argument to be made
Speaker 1: here that it takes some of the skill out of
Speaker 1: it because there is no skill. It doesn't matter if
Speaker 1: you're Patrick Reid or set Me Biosteros. It has an
Speaker 1: amazing short game. It's almost like sometimes the skill level
Speaker 1: around the green complex is it kind of makes everyone
Speaker 1: the same? How much is too much rough around the greens?
Speaker 3: Right? I would agree with that one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I think when you get the roughest severe it was
Speaker 2: at Oakmont, around the greens, you have a situation.
Speaker 3: I always call it's hack and hope.
Speaker 2: I mean, you hack at it and you hope that
Speaker 2: the ball comes out the way you anticipate based on
Speaker 2: your thought as how the ball is actually lying in
Speaker 2: the grass. And yeah, there's certain techniques. Obviously, you got
Speaker 2: to get the club up in the air a little quicker,
Speaker 2: and you bet got to be a little bit steeper
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. But every one of
Speaker 2: those players has that ability to make that adjustment. But
Speaker 2: then it becomes how hard do I hit it? And
Speaker 2: especially when you short sighted yourself in a US Open,
Speaker 2: and you know you have to have speed to get
Speaker 2: the club through that grass five and a half inches.
Speaker 2: As you say, it was wet, it was sticky, I
Speaker 2: mean it was nasty. You know, to only make the
Speaker 2: ball go say twenty feet and you only need to
Speaker 2: carry it three you know, you can look pretty foolish,
Speaker 2: you really can't. There were certain situations to me where,
Speaker 2: you know, when we had done a US Amateur telecast there,
Speaker 2: we'd done other opens there at Opat they had some
Speaker 2: shaved areas you know around you know, like behind number
Speaker 2: three was shaved, you know, behind the third green it
Speaker 2: was it was cut at fairwey high. To me, that
Speaker 2: allows a little more creativity, a little more skill, you know,
Speaker 2: various shots and that kind of thing. I personally like
Speaker 2: to see that a lot more than what I call
Speaker 2: the hack and hope.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about JJ Spahn. I mean what a performance.
Speaker 1: I mean put it into perspective what he did, because
Speaker 1: if you look at the leader board, not only on
Speaker 1: the weekend, but on Sunday, I mean, you had some
Speaker 1: of the best players in the world, you have some
Speaker 1: of the some of the favorites every single week going
Speaker 1: into these and I think JJ's had an amazing year.
Speaker 1: You know, the playoff at the Players with Rory, but
Speaker 1: JJ spawn is not somebody that anybody had on a
Speaker 1: list of who's going to win the US Open at Oakmont.
Speaker 1: How good was the performance?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it was incredible, no question about it.
Speaker 2: And you know I touched on earlier. I wasn't sure
Speaker 2: they should go back out and play those last six
Speaker 2: or seven holes. JJ Spond's really glad they did. You know,
Speaker 2: it was almost like the weather delay was a reset
Speaker 2: for him. I mean he was headed in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2: I mean it was eerily similar to the players. Remember
Speaker 2: the players had had a weather delay as well in
Speaker 2: the final round, and he came back out of that
Speaker 2: weather delay and actually hit some clutch shots, made some
Speaker 2: great putts and had a chance to win that right
Speaker 2: very late on the last hole. Didn't make the putt there,
Speaker 2: but you know, got himself into the playoff. It was
Speaker 2: eerily similar at the US Open. I mean at the
Speaker 2: start that he.
Speaker 3: Had, I mean you you.
Speaker 2: Wrote him off forty on the front right, I mean,
Speaker 2: he was he was terrible, looked nervous, looked, you know,
Speaker 2: like he just couldn't handle the situation.
Speaker 3: But for some reason or.
Speaker 2: Another, when he came back out after that weather delay,
Speaker 2: the reset was incredible, just amazing. I mean that the
Speaker 2: shot he hit at seventeen, the two shots he hit
Speaker 2: at eighteen, you know, yeah, the putt, I mean, you
Speaker 2: know you're trying to two putt, it goes in. You know,
Speaker 2: he clearly would have been able to putt. It was
Speaker 2: such a great putt.
Speaker 3: I tell you.
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, you know that Leechervino did really well
Speaker 2: in US Opens. His swing, maybe not the back swing,
Speaker 2: but the forward motion through the ball and the finish
Speaker 2: and the ball flight kind of a low, you know,
Speaker 2: left to right under control. Shot reminded me a lot
Speaker 2: of Leech Reno, and watching it really did.
Speaker 1: DJ was hitting golf balls next to JJ on Tuesday
Speaker 1: and a friend of mine messaged me and he said, hey,
Speaker 1: I need some sleeper picks. Give me some, you know,
Speaker 1: not superstar picks. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, okay,
Speaker 1: Shane Lowry finished second there, you know, had a big lead.
Speaker 1: It's a golf course that you know, I know he
Speaker 1: really really likes. He's been playing well. And I said,
Speaker 1: I think Shane Lowry. But JJ's hitting balls right next
Speaker 1: to us. He's working with his coach, Adam Striver. First
Speaker 1: of all, there's a sound test. There's an audio test
Speaker 1: when you're watching guys hit golf balls.
Speaker 3: On the range.
Speaker 1: And there are guys that have a completely different audio test,
Speaker 1: Rory McElroy, Scottie Scheffler. They're all out of center the
Speaker 1: club face. Gary. I'm watching JJ hit balls and every
Speaker 1: single one of these out of the middle of the
Speaker 1: club face like this sound is good, the balance is good.
Speaker 1: I'm watching the shape and this was through the bag.
Speaker 1: We got to the range about the same time. I
Speaker 1: watched him do an entire practice session watch. So then
Speaker 1: on the weekend I'm thinking, hey, and I thought, when
Speaker 1: you go back, you can always go back and look
Speaker 1: at you know, what helped players win the tournament. But
Speaker 1: I think in looking back, the stretch on was it
Speaker 1: on Saturday makes paws from five to sixteen just does Again,
Speaker 1: we've seen that in the past. We haven't seen that necessarily,
Speaker 1: I think recently from a US Open. But you know this,
Speaker 1: having covered so many of these, the guys that win
Speaker 1: these scenes will have days to where they'll just put
Speaker 1: eleven twelve pors in a row, and in that stretch
Speaker 1: they're making the seven to ten foot or for poor
Speaker 1: that they need to make. I thought it was incredibly
Speaker 1: impressive that JJ had no double bogies for the entire week, right,
Speaker 1: I mean nineteenth and fairways hit ninth in the greens
Speaker 1: ninth and putting that rain delay that you talked about.
Speaker 1: You've probably been a part of a lot of those
Speaker 1: in the course of your career. They can be the
Speaker 1: reset that you need, but then they can also go
Speaker 1: the other way to where you can actually be leading
Speaker 1: and cruising. Do you think maybe the reset helped JJ
Speaker 1: Moore and it hurt Sam Burns and out of scott
Speaker 1: because they came out started double boge in every hole.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, well, I mean you look back on it.
Speaker 2: I mean Sam Burns had just birdied the tenth folt.
Speaker 2: I mean you know it was like he kind of
Speaker 2: had taken control. Seemed to be, you know, striking the
Speaker 2: ball as well as anybody, got some momentum back by
Speaker 2: making that birdie at ten, and then man, when he
Speaker 2: came back out, it.
Speaker 3: Was it was just night and day.
Speaker 2: And yeah, you know, as a player, I mean we
Speaker 2: all kind of do the same things in weather delays.
Speaker 2: You kind of hang around, You maybe eat a little bit,
Speaker 2: or you know, you gather in a group of friends
Speaker 2: and you're telling stories, or you know, some guys will
Speaker 2: go off in a corner and kind of lay down
Speaker 2: and try to relax. I mean, there's no magic formulas
Speaker 2: to you know, what guys do during weather delay. But
Speaker 2: you know, obviously, in listening to what JJ's bond said,
Speaker 2: you know, he got together with his team and his
Speaker 2: team kind of said, hey, look, you know you're not
Speaker 2: out of this yet. You know you're four shots behind.
Speaker 2: If we just started on Monday and said Sunday afternoon,
Speaker 2: you would be four shots back with eight holes to go.
Speaker 2: In a US Open, you'd probably said, wow, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: I take it. I'd take it. You know, I'd like
Speaker 2: to be in that position. So you know, obviously somebody
Speaker 2: planted some good seeds in his brain to you know,
Speaker 2: say hey, you know, look, go back out there and
Speaker 2: play the way you you know you've been playing. You
Speaker 2: don't have to do anything special, just get back to
Speaker 2: what you were doing, and he was able to do it.
Speaker 1: I thought it was also lucky for JJ that they
Speaker 1: didn't shelter in place, because sometimes they'll do that, right,
Speaker 1: they'll call everybody so, yes, it's just a there's no
Speaker 1: there's no lightning, so this is just going to blow through.
Speaker 1: And I think originally they did that they thought it
Speaker 1: was maybe going to go through and to be maybe
Speaker 1: a fifteen to twenty minute to lay shelter in place,
Speaker 1: but then they knew it was going to be longer,
Speaker 1: so then they pull everybody gets pulled off, and then
Speaker 1: after a certain timeframe then they have to let everybody
Speaker 1: warm back up. And I do know that Adam Shreiver
Speaker 1: and Josh greg Green, who has been helping JJ with
Speaker 1: the short game, said to him, listen, take the handbrake off,
Speaker 1: stop it, you know, just let it go, just and
Speaker 1: step up. And I think that's I think that's the
Speaker 1: other thing that I always find interesting about that kind
Speaker 1: of US Open setup is you know it's going to
Speaker 1: be difficult, and you can go out and all you're
Speaker 1: trying to do is not hit bad shots. All you're
Speaker 1: trying to do is not miss the fair way, not
Speaker 1: miss the green. And then you start missing fairways and
Speaker 1: you miss greens that stretch from five to sixteen on Saturday.
Speaker 1: As a former player, you've played in a lot of
Speaker 1: these US Opens, you've played in the old school days
Speaker 1: that stretch. How hard is it Gary to just grind out,
Speaker 1: you know, two solid hours of just making pars because
Speaker 1: the rest of your career as a player, it's not
Speaker 1: like that. You know that they're going to be burned.
Speaker 1: Even the par five sat at Oakmart legit char So
Speaker 1: there really aren't a lot of other than maybe fourteen,
Speaker 1: the short par four that was you know everybody was
Speaker 1: getting close to. That was a legit. Bob Ford told
Speaker 1: me that he was walking around the longtime head pro there.
Speaker 1: He said, listen, I think fourteen is this week is
Speaker 1: the only legit party chance these players have, so everything
Speaker 1: else is just holding on. How hard is it to
Speaker 1: switch that mindset, Gary to Okay, I'm in a US
Speaker 1: Open now, I just have to throw together as many
Speaker 1: pars this week as I can. What do you have
Speaker 1: to do mentally to change that switch from attack to
Speaker 1: not protect, but to play conservatively aggressive? Right?
Speaker 2: Well, I think you know you touched on it very
Speaker 2: early on, and I know I talked to probably half
Speaker 2: a dozen caddies and probably ten players, and every single
Speaker 2: one of them told me the exact same thing. I'll
Speaker 2: take even par right now and never tee off. So
Speaker 2: you know, if that's the mindset going in, and it
Speaker 2: was obviously with a bunch of people, a good caddy
Speaker 2: is going to keep reminding you, hey, every time we
Speaker 2: make a par, we're going to pick up shots on somebody.
Speaker 2: You know, we're going to pick up a half a
Speaker 2: shot on somebody or a full shot on somebody. And
Speaker 2: I do think, you know, so much of that is
Speaker 2: putting well because if you keep making some you know,
Speaker 2: you make those first two or three seven eight footers
Speaker 2: ten foot or whatever, and all of a sudden, you know,
Speaker 2: your confidence grows with that. And now all of a
Speaker 2: sudden you know, you don't feel the need that I
Speaker 2: have to get this ball right next to the hole
Speaker 2: all the time. You know, if I if I'm in
Speaker 2: the rough around the green and I chip it to
Speaker 2: eight feet, it's okay. You know, I can make this
Speaker 2: putt and that you know, as you said, and that
Speaker 2: timeframe on Saturday, he did that time after time after time.
Speaker 2: And you know, once you start doing it, it's like, okay,
Speaker 2: I can play the golf course this way and still
Speaker 2: be in fine shape. So again I go back to,
Speaker 2: you know, the US Open Test, and one of the
Speaker 2: aspects is the mental component of it. And yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean you've got to be able to change your attitude
Speaker 2: and your approach. I mean, that's just the way it is.
Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, we were in rain delay
Speaker 1: and I was talking to David Deval when he was
Speaker 1: doing some TV at the Masters for Golf Channel, and
Speaker 1: we're on one of the tour trucks, and I said
Speaker 1: to him, you know, David, you had a great career.
Speaker 1: You're number one in the world, won a major champion.
Speaker 1: You're a great college player. To be a great player,
Speaker 1: to be a major champion, to be number one in
Speaker 1: the world. What do you think you have to have?
Speaker 1: And I thought he was going to say something about
Speaker 1: shots or something like that, and it's always something that
Speaker 1: stuck with me. He said, I think to be a
Speaker 1: great player and to be a great champion, you have
Speaker 1: to have acceptance. You have to be able to accept
Speaker 1: what is happening. And I think you know, the years
Speaker 1: open at Oakmon is a great example of acceptance. You
Speaker 1: are not going to change that golf course, you know,
Speaker 1: Thirst and Lawrence he was six under run Thursday. You
Speaker 1: knew he wasn't going to finish six under even for
Speaker 1: the day, right, So that acceptance of Okay, I know
Speaker 1: the golf course is hard. I know it is going
Speaker 1: to be a very difficult test. I know I'm not
Speaker 1: going to get a lot of great looks for Birdie.
Speaker 1: But then there's that thing that I think is always
Speaker 1: difficult for you guys as players, to where you're in
Speaker 1: protect mode, You're in defense mode all day. Because I
Speaker 1: always think major championships, the ones that win those are
Speaker 1: the guys that play offense when they need to play offense,
Speaker 1: and they play defense when they need to play defense.
Speaker 1: And the trick of what the USGA does is you
Speaker 1: get out of position and you know you should be
Speaker 1: playing defense, but your brain tells you, Okay, I have
Speaker 1: to play offense. But the opposite of that, the shot
Speaker 1: that JJ hit at seventeen, that is where you have
Speaker 1: to play offense, and to take advantage of that and
Speaker 1: play offense at the right time. To choose to play offense,
Speaker 1: but then to execute that, it must be very difficult
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, I've been in defense mode all day,
Speaker 1: all day, and now I've got a fifteen foot up
Speaker 1: the hill for berdie.
Speaker 3: How do I.
Speaker 2: Handle this all right? Well, and you know on the
Speaker 2: broadcast we said it often. I mean, you know, you
Speaker 2: get so defensive, especially on those greens, I mean running
Speaker 2: as fast as they were, and then you get some
Speaker 2: of the down slopes and the side slopes and everything
Speaker 2: else that you know, your defensive, your defensive, your defensive,
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden you get a putt
Speaker 2: you know where you are uphill and it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I could actually hit this one. Well, we
Speaker 2: saw a lot of those puts, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: come up short or not be strug firmly enough, and
Speaker 2: it's just, you know, it plays on your mind. There's
Speaker 2: no question about it. That's that's what makes the US
Speaker 2: Open so unique. So you know, you talked about it.
Speaker 2: He had the opportunity there at seventeen, JJ did he
Speaker 2: pulled the shot off. The one thing about seventeen that
Speaker 2: I liked was, I mean I didn't look at the
Speaker 2: final stats, but I would guess probably ninety five ninety
Speaker 2: seven percent of the time the green, they were going
Speaker 2: for the green. I mean, there's no reason to lay
Speaker 2: out not anymore. I mean, they can all hit it
Speaker 2: far enough. So you knew that that was going to
Speaker 2: be the case. You knew he was going to try
Speaker 2: to drive it on the green and to be able
Speaker 2: to stand up there and make that swing. As you said,
Speaker 2: you know, being aggressive at the right time is one
Speaker 2: thing mentally, but then being able to physically do it
Speaker 2: is a whole other thing. But that's why he's got
Speaker 2: the US Open trophy. He did it at the right time.
Speaker 1: So obviously, I mean, you know this. You win a
Speaker 1: PGA Tour event, your life changes, right, you know, you
Speaker 1: have a career like you have where you win multiple times,
Speaker 1: your life changes. But when you win a major and
Speaker 1: you've never you know, i mean, JJ's never won a
Speaker 1: major before everybody says it's life changing, it's life altering
Speaker 1: in your opinion, deary, how how is it life altering?
Speaker 1: And how does that change affect a player? What now
Speaker 1: happens to JJ? Moving forward? Every time because you know this,
Speaker 1: you win a tournament, you show up at a PJ
Speaker 1: tour bent, everybody looks at you differently, and then you
Speaker 1: win another tournament. So if you're a multiple winner on tour,
Speaker 1: you're looked at in a different light. But if you
Speaker 1: win a major championship, you are forever looked at completely
Speaker 1: differently in the sport by everybody. How do you feel
Speaker 1: like his life changes now?
Speaker 2: Well, I think what'll be fascinating to see and I
Speaker 2: think it happens anytime a guy who maybe you don't
Speaker 2: expect to win a major wins one. Is what happens
Speaker 2: after that? Because it is going to be different, you know,
Speaker 2: now all of a sudden, there are a lot of
Speaker 2: demands on your time, you know, a lot of opportunities
Speaker 2: to make money, you know, but again, does that take
Speaker 2: you out of your normal routine? Does that take you
Speaker 2: out of you know, the things that you used to
Speaker 2: do to get to where you got By winning the
Speaker 2: US Open. I've seen it, you know, happen numerous times.
Speaker 2: I mean, some guys handle it very well, other guys don't,
Speaker 2: and you just never know. But the demands on your time,
Speaker 2: you know, having never won a major, but I just
Speaker 2: know you need to learn how to say no is
Speaker 2: one thing that's really important because now every time something
Speaker 2: comes up, you know, JJ spond is going to be
Speaker 2: asked about it, because he's the US Open champion. Doesn't
Speaker 2: matter whether it's about golf or life or something else, politics,
Speaker 2: even you know, all the world's going, he's going to
Speaker 2: be asked about it. So managing your time and still
Speaker 2: being able to do the thing things that got you
Speaker 2: to where you are, I think is critical, I really do.
Speaker 2: I mean a very dear friend of mine, Bill Rogers, well,
Speaker 2: I had an unbelievable year, you know, won the Open
Speaker 2: Championship one in Australia one, you know, and the next
Speaker 2: few years he you know, chased the money, went and
Speaker 2: played everywhere, got paid to go play. And sure enough,
Speaker 2: within probably a year and a half two years after
Speaker 2: that fabulous year, he was burned out. He was tired
Speaker 2: of golf, and he was never the same player. And
Speaker 2: you know he would admit to this day that you know,
Speaker 2: he didn't handle it very well. So it'll be fascinating
Speaker 2: to see how JJ doesn't.
Speaker 1: Speaking of saying no, you've been on both sides of this.
Speaker 1: You've been on the player side and the broadcasting side.
Speaker 1: Rory McElroy's stance lately, I mean, I saw a tweet
Speaker 1: the other day and said it said, who would have
Speaker 1: thought that Roy mcawaite could win the Masters and get
Speaker 1: the Grand Slam? And we're talking about him negatively the
Speaker 1: way that we have his stance lately to not speak
Speaker 1: to the press. Listen. He is entitled to do it, right.
Speaker 1: It's not mandatory. It's not like it is another team
Speaker 1: sports in the NFL. You are not contractually obligated to
Speaker 1: speak to the media. I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: look at times that I find Rory to be incredibly engaging,
Speaker 1: incredibly curious. I think he's smart. I enjoy talking to him.
Speaker 1: When when I talk to him, we don't really talk
Speaker 1: a lot about golf. We talk about other things. He's
Speaker 1: a smart kid, right, he has a lot to say sometimes.
Speaker 1: I think in the last four years it seems like
Speaker 1: he'd loves the sound of his own voice and then
Speaker 1: right now, it's like he doesn't want to say anything.
Speaker 1: Where are you on this kind of And as a
Speaker 1: wider question, do you feel like the players owe the
Speaker 1: media and the fans interviews?
Speaker 2: You know, having been at a large part of that
Speaker 2: one side of it media for quite some time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'd like to think that.
Speaker 2: I don't know if oh is the right word, but
Speaker 2: you'd like to think that most of these guys would
Speaker 2: be smart enough that, you know, every time we show
Speaker 2: their face or they're on TV, or they're doing an interview,
Speaker 2: or they're up there on the media center, you know,
Speaker 2: with all their logos on and all the money they're
Speaker 2: making from their sponsors, that you know, this is just
Speaker 2: another opportunity for me to keep a lot of people happy.
Speaker 2: That being said, I get the sense, and I have
Speaker 2: not had a chance to talk to Rory about this.
Speaker 2: I think he was very unhappy with the driver situation
Speaker 2: and what happened at the PGA and that it came
Speaker 2: out that his driver was non conforming and there were
Speaker 2: other players drivers that were non conforming that didn't make
Speaker 2: big headlines like his did. And you know, you know
Speaker 2: as well as I do as a player, you don't
Speaker 2: know when your driver's non conforming or not. I mean,
Speaker 2: you hit enough balls and sure enough, sooner or later
Speaker 2: the face gets too thin and then it doesn't pass
Speaker 2: the test. But it's not like, you know, all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, your driver's going fifteen yards farther than it was,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's non conforming. I mean, you don't
Speaker 2: know that. So I think he was a little unhappy
Speaker 2: and upset about that and how that was handled. But
Speaker 2: that being said, come out and just say that one time.
Speaker 2: Do want to interview and just say, hey, look, you know,
Speaker 2: I feel like I was treated unfairly. I mean, I
Speaker 2: know other guys drivers were not conforming. I don't like
Speaker 2: the fact that, you know, you guys made such a
Speaker 2: big deal out of the fact that I was non
Speaker 2: conforming and then it would be over, you know, it
Speaker 2: would be done. I will say, I think he's in
Speaker 2: a strange place, you know, after achieving this lifelong goal
Speaker 2: of this career Grand Slam and winning the Masters after
Speaker 2: sixteen attempts or whatever it was, and he's, you know,
Speaker 2: he's struggling a little bit to get reset and come
Speaker 2: up with new goals and everything else. You know, he
Speaker 2: made a comment, he did talk Friday after he birdied
Speaker 2: the eighteenth hold to make the cut there at Oakmont,
Speaker 2: and he made a comment about something about it it's
Speaker 2: a lot easier to do when you really don't care
Speaker 2: whether you're there on the weekend or not, which was like,
Speaker 2: that's just not the Rory McElroy that I know. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, he's more competitive than that. So I was
Speaker 2: glad to see him play well on Sunday and then
Speaker 2: do a bunch better interview. Seemed to handle last week
Speaker 2: at the Travelers well. Again, I think it was just
Speaker 2: a temporary blip, and you know, I think he'll be back,
Speaker 2: you know, doing what he should be doing.
Speaker 3: Should we make it mandatory?
Speaker 1: To me?
Speaker 2: When you start making stuff mandatory, you start taking away
Speaker 2: the fact that we're independent contractors. The guys who play
Speaker 2: on the tour independent contractors. They set their own schedule.
Speaker 2: They're all CEOs of their own business. So if the
Speaker 2: CEO of the business decides he doesn't want to talk
Speaker 2: to the media, then you know what, it's his decision
Speaker 2: to make. It probably won't go on well, it won't
Speaker 2: come across well, but it is his decision to make.
Speaker 1: When you look at Rory McRoy, now as a you know,
Speaker 1: he was one of the Grand Slam five majors. You
Speaker 1: followed him a lot. What do you like about his
Speaker 1: game and what what do you marvel at about the
Speaker 1: things that he does, Because I I mean, I've been
Speaker 1: lucky enough and that you have those of us that
Speaker 1: have been around the game a long time, and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm glad that I grew up in that kind of
Speaker 1: middle generation. I didn't see Nicholas really play. My dad
Speaker 1: talks about it. He's, you know, my dad kind of
Speaker 1: he'll be eighty two in August. He's like, I've seen
Speaker 1: pretty other than he said, I never really saw, you know,
Speaker 1: Gene Sarason play a lot, or Bobby Jones, but he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, other than you know, my dad's eighty two
Speaker 1: and in eight, but he's like, Rory mcroy's one of
Speaker 1: the greatest golfers I've ever seen in my opinion. I mean,
Speaker 1: I got to watch my dad work with Greg Norman,
Speaker 1: and I think Greg Norman's one of the greatest golfers
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. I got to watch my dad work
Speaker 1: with Tiger Woods. I think Tiger is the greatest all
Speaker 1: but Rory is as good a golfer. As you can
Speaker 1: find what you love about him? What do you like
Speaker 1: watching about it?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I mean let's start the last.
Speaker 2: With with the way he drives the golf. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, to to watch that flight, you know, that
Speaker 2: high towering draw, which to me, I feel like when
Speaker 2: you watch a large majority of the players, now, even
Speaker 2: the best players, they all tend to fade the ball
Speaker 2: now right because the way the drivers are building, the
Speaker 2: way the golf balls are designed and everything else, it's
Speaker 2: a lot easier and you can make it go far enough,
Speaker 2: a lot easier to control, playing something left to right.
Speaker 2: And here he'll stand up there and hit this big,
Speaker 2: high towering draw that carries three hundred and twenty yards
Speaker 2: and it's just and his balance is perfect. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just. It's a marvel to watch, it really is.
Speaker 2: I think a short game is underrated. I think he's
Speaker 2: actually pretty good short game wise. I do think one
Speaker 2: of the things I've been impressed with the most here
Speaker 2: Fairly recently, he talked about he went to a spinniar
Speaker 2: golf ball, and by going to the spinnier golf ball,
Speaker 2: he had to learn how to take some speed off
Speaker 2: the short irons, so he didn't spin the ball too
Speaker 2: much coming into the greens. So to me, you're seeing
Speaker 2: a lot more of these, like kind of three quarter finishes,
Speaker 2: a little slower motion through the ball with the short irons,
Speaker 2: because he always had a tendency to meet us swing
Speaker 2: to short irons a little bit like the driver, big
Speaker 2: full swing, kind of hit a big high draw. Oftentimes
Speaker 2: he'd be long left with a short iron. But now
Speaker 2: I think he's got the ball under control with his
Speaker 2: shorter clubs. I want you know, I can remember your
Speaker 2: dad telling me years ago, telling Dustin Johnson, Dustin, you're
Speaker 2: going to have probably ten to twelve shots of one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty yards or less every eighteen holes you play.
Speaker 2: That's some sort of wedge for you. You need to
Speaker 2: figure out how to control the distance with your wedges.
Speaker 2: And once he started doing that, track Man with his
Speaker 2: wedge play, you know, he got the number one in
Speaker 2: the world. So if Rory can continue with that and
Speaker 2: continue to improve the short iron play. His putting is streaky,
Speaker 2: you know, there's no question about that. But you know
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of great players that have had
Speaker 2: been streaky with a putter. The good news is is
Speaker 2: when he gets going, he keeps going with it, and
Speaker 2: that's when he wins tournaments and shoots good scores.
Speaker 1: Is he the complete player? When you look at him,
Speaker 1: you look at him and just say he basically because
Speaker 1: like you said, there are players that are dominant now.
Speaker 1: I think you can do that. You can dominate now
Speaker 1: and be a dominant player by doing a couple of
Speaker 1: things really really well. If you've got distance, if you're
Speaker 1: a great driver of the golf ball. When I look
Speaker 1: at Rory his game, in the evolution of his game
Speaker 1: over the years, he has added shots right to the arsenal.
Speaker 1: When he came out, he was winning golf balls by
Speaker 1: just hitting a high bomb, nukedraw right, he hit it
Speaker 1: further than everybody. He won. Well, where majors got the
Speaker 1: number one in the world.
Speaker 2: And you think of those early majors an he won.
Speaker 2: Every one of them was soft. Ye, the golf courses
Speaker 2: were soft, Valhalla, Congressional, you know they were soft. I
Speaker 2: was amazed when I first watched him play how infrequently
Speaker 2: he hit any kind of knockdown shot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he hasn't really played back.
Speaker 2: Wait for having grown up in Ireland playing you would
Speaker 2: have assumed I mean, it's like when I grew up
Speaker 2: down here in Florida, one of the first things I
Speaker 2: learned is I got to be a better player, was
Speaker 2: how to control the trajectory and knocked the ball down
Speaker 2: into the wind. I was amazed when I first watched
Speaker 2: Rory play that he didn't have more of that ability.
Speaker 2: I think he does now. I think he controls his
Speaker 2: trajectory much better than he used to.
Speaker 1: Speaking of another complete player this run, Scotty Scheffler's all.
Speaker 1: I mean thirteen events this year's and people forget he
Speaker 1: was heard at the beginning of the year. Right, thirteen events,
Speaker 1: nine top tens, three wins a major. You know, I
Speaker 1: asked Steve Sands, I up Sandy on the podcast a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. And the comparisons that everybody's making
Speaker 1: to Tiger, Right, you watched Tiger, You did the iconic
Speaker 1: better than most all of that. Right, But Tiger is
Speaker 1: kind of the modern benchmark, where for you Jack was
Speaker 1: the benchmark, sure, but for the modern generation post kind
Speaker 1: of Foudo and Norman, Tiger is he's the need all,
Speaker 1: He's the benchmark. So everybody is going to the great
Speaker 1: ones like Rory. Roy gets compared to Tiger. Right, the
Speaker 1: things that Rory does get very closely compared to Tiger
Speaker 1: because he is so dominant and Scotty Scheffler's dominant run
Speaker 1: that he's been on now for three four years, first
Speaker 1: of all, put it into perspective. How good is it?
Speaker 1: And can it continue? And can he get better?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Well, it's amazing would be my one word to describe it.
Speaker 2: It is amazing, you know, just week after week after week,
Speaker 2: which you know does remind you of Tiger a little bit.
Speaker 2: You talk about a complete player, he is very close
Speaker 2: to that.
Speaker 3: In my mind.
Speaker 2: Again, I think his short game is somewhat underrated. I
Speaker 2: don't think people talk about it enough, but he seems
Speaker 2: to be, you know, very adequate. More than adequate with
Speaker 2: his short game. I would say, of all the players
Speaker 2: that I've watched through the Tiger era and now you know,
Speaker 2: post Tiger, Scotty plays his irons closer to what Tiger
Speaker 2: did than anybody I've seen. He tends to hit the
Speaker 2: ball the right distance, a high right, and that was
Speaker 2: Tiger's calling card when he was at his best. You know,
Speaker 2: he hit the ball the right distance all the time,
Speaker 2: And to me, that's something that you can't teach. I mean,
Speaker 2: you're a wonderful teacher, you're a great teacher. You can't
Speaker 2: teach that. That is, that's an innate thing that some
Speaker 2: people have that others don't. I mean, you can have
Speaker 2: the greatest technique in the world, but if you don't
Speaker 2: have that innate feel and ability to visualize the shot
Speaker 2: that's going to go the right distance, and you know
Speaker 2: a lot of times it's a matter of taking just
Speaker 2: a little bit of speed off to make the ball
Speaker 2: go four yards shorter than it normally does. You know,
Speaker 2: you can't teach that. You either have that or you don't.
Speaker 2: Scotty does. Scotty has that, and you see it time
Speaker 2: and time again. You know that he hits the ball
Speaker 2: the right distance with desrons. Putting has gotten better, no
Speaker 2: question about it. The work he's done with Phil Kenyan
Speaker 2: and go into the claw, grip or whatever you want
Speaker 2: to call it. You know, on the shorter putting, he
Speaker 2: seems to be better with that, which was probably his
Speaker 2: biggest concern, you know, two years ago. Can he get better?
Speaker 2: It'll be interesting to me because he does have a
Speaker 2: tendency which you know every player you know as well
Speaker 2: as I do. Every player has tendencies. He has a
Speaker 2: left miss and you see it when he's a little
Speaker 2: off the ball wants to start left and then kind
Speaker 2: of hang left.
Speaker 3: Or maybe even go a little farther left.
Speaker 2: And when you're trying to play a cut shot most
Speaker 2: of the time, a lot of times that's not a
Speaker 2: good thing. And talking to Randy Smith about it, he
Speaker 2: said a lot of times it's in his setup. You know,
Speaker 2: he just gets set up a little cock eyed, and
Speaker 2: and you know the ball starts left of where he
Speaker 2: wants and the face isn't open enough to get the
Speaker 2: ball to come back to the right. But you know,
Speaker 2: and I think that was on full display at Opemond
Speaker 2: on Saturday afternoon, you.
Speaker 3: Know, Sunday on the front end first, everything left right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now that's not to say that Tiger didn't tendencies too,
Speaker 2: He did, you know. I mean again, every player does.
Speaker 2: Can you manage those and can you maybe minimize that tendency?
Speaker 2: It wouldn't surprise me at all if Scotty figures that out.
Speaker 2: What's the ceiling. Wow, he's already number one, you know what.
Speaker 2: He's on a run now like six or seven straight
Speaker 2: events where it's worst finished is eighth. I mean it
Speaker 2: just worst finished this year is twenty fifth at waste management,
Speaker 2: twentieth afth the players, everything else is a legit, every
Speaker 2: single win to win exactly well. I mean the US
Speaker 2: Open was a great example. I mean, he clearly did
Speaker 2: not have his A game, and I would argue maybe
Speaker 2: the first couple of days it might not even have
Speaker 2: been his B game. And sure enough, come the end
Speaker 2: of the week, where does he finish?
Speaker 3: Top ten?
Speaker 2: So that and you know, I can remember Tiger, you know,
Speaker 2: didn't make a lot of other players very happy. But
Speaker 2: sometimes Tiger would announce that he had won with.
Speaker 3: His B game.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to put you on the spot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who has more majors at the end of their career?
Speaker 1: Rory or Scotty? Wow, So we got Rory at five
Speaker 1: and yes he's a little bit older now, yeah, and Scott.
Speaker 3: Is at three three.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say Scotti ends up with I Really, I
Speaker 2: just think he's I think he's got a lot that
Speaker 2: he still wants to do. You know, I think it'll
Speaker 2: be interesting to see if Rory can reset, you know,
Speaker 2: after reaching that goal of the career Grand Slam and
Speaker 2: finally winning the masters. You know, Rory to me is
Speaker 2: entering an age where you know, he's thirty five.
Speaker 3: Now, and you know, yeah, I mean it's you.
Speaker 2: Know, it used to be in my generation, your thirties
Speaker 2: were kind of like your prime.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I mean you kind of got out.
Speaker 2: On tour in your twenties and you kind of figured
Speaker 2: it out and and got better and you know, figured
Speaker 2: out maybe how to win.
Speaker 3: And then you know, by the.
Speaker 2: Time you were in your thirties, kind of your mental
Speaker 2: and your physical kind of melded together to reach your peak.
Speaker 2: I see that happening a lot earlier now with the
Speaker 2: guys on tour, you know, they seem to peak mid twenties,
Speaker 2: some of them, you know, so really maybe Scotty's just
Speaker 2: coming into his peak and Rory is, you know, accomplished
Speaker 2: a lot and can he get himself back and motivated
Speaker 2: enough to keep going so you know, it'd be fun
Speaker 2: to watch.
Speaker 1: Why Gary, do you think we are seeing this kind
Speaker 1: of trend of You know, my dad talks about this
Speaker 1: a lot. When you used to come out on tour,
Speaker 1: you had to serve an apprenticeship. You needed to kind
Speaker 1: of earn your stripes, learn the ropes, learn the tournaments.
Speaker 1: It was going to take you. Even if you were
Speaker 1: a great college player or had a great amateur career,
Speaker 1: it was going to take you. Everybody said, listen, it's
Speaker 1: going to take him three, four or five years to
Speaker 1: kind of figure it out. Man, he's going to start winning.
Speaker 1: But we are just seeing on mass for the last
Speaker 1: five to seven years, the players come out of come
Speaker 1: that wolf comes out of college wins me like, these
Speaker 1: players come out. Do you see anything as to why
Speaker 1: that is happening more and faster now then maybe it
Speaker 1: did in your era or the past. I think one
Speaker 1: of the big things is the technology that's available.
Speaker 3: I really do. The instruction is so.
Speaker 2: Much better, The technology is better. You know a lot
Speaker 2: of a lot of what we did, you know, and
Speaker 2: then this goes back to the mid seventies when I
Speaker 2: started on the tour. A lot of what we did
Speaker 2: was trial and error. I mean it was it was
Speaker 2: just trial and error. I mean, you got you started
Speaker 2: hitting balls, and if it was drawing too much, you
Speaker 2: tried to figure out to make it go to the
Speaker 2: other direction.
Speaker 1: If you were testing drivers, if you found one you liked,
Speaker 1: I just liked it, and you just used it.
Speaker 3: You used it.
Speaker 2: I mean, you didn't have numbers, you didn't have launch angle,
Speaker 2: you didn't you knew it felt good and when you
Speaker 2: swung it produced a shot that you knew you could play.
Speaker 2: So I think these guys are just much better prepared
Speaker 2: from that standpoint. And look, there's no question. I mean
Speaker 2: when I played in college, I played against some great
Speaker 2: players Ben Crenshaw and Tom Kite and you know, Curtis
Speaker 2: Strange and Jay Haas, and I mean, you know a
Speaker 2: lot of great players. But the sheer number of really
Speaker 2: good players now is so much more than when we played.
Speaker 2: And I think because that level of competition is so
Speaker 2: much better, these guys are just used to, you know,
Speaker 2: performing at a top level sooner. It is interesting, you know,
Speaker 2: I think back on my class that you know, when
Speaker 2: I went to the tour school in the fall in
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five, and everybody talks about, you know, all
Speaker 2: these guys are winning.
Speaker 3: Right out of the gate now and blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: Well, in my class, Bob Gilder won is second start
Speaker 2: in Phoenix. I won my sixth start at Tallahassee. Jerry
Speaker 2: Pate won the US Open and the Canadian Open. His
Speaker 2: rookie year, you know. So it's not like this is
Speaker 2: a totally new phenomenon, these guys coming out of college
Speaker 2: and winning tournaments right away. So you know, it's happened before,
Speaker 2: maybe not as frequently for sure, but you know, the
Speaker 2: guys are just better. I mean, they're just better playing.
Speaker 2: I mean I think you know, look, I'm three times
Speaker 2: first time, you know, all American at Florida. I was
Speaker 2: runner up individually in the NCAA tot Crenshaw one year
Speaker 2: and Curtis Strains the next year. These guys are so
Speaker 2: much better than I was coming out of college. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I could somewhat hit the ball. I could
Speaker 2: putt like crazy, and I could chip like crazy. These
Speaker 2: guys now strike the ball. I mean, it's just it's
Speaker 2: night and day.
Speaker 3: It really is. It's night and day.
Speaker 1: Other than obviously, maybe we I was going to say,
Speaker 1: other than the equipment. Maybe we can't take the equipment
Speaker 1: out of the equation. But in your mind, what is
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five the professional game? How is it
Speaker 1: played differently by the players than when you played? What
Speaker 1: do you look at and go okay, that is just
Speaker 1: a completely different way of playing the game. Than we
Speaker 1: played it right.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it starts with the analytics. You know,
Speaker 2: we had no analytics. I mean we just did you know, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you might keep your own you know stats. You know
Speaker 2: I hit so many yeah, I mean, you know, but
Speaker 2: we didn't have analytics as the best way to play holes.
Speaker 2: You mentioned Josh Gregory a little earlier about he's now
Speaker 2: working with JJ spond. So about four years ago, I'm
Speaker 2: on the range at the Players and Josh is there
Speaker 2: and I and I said, Josh, you know, help me
Speaker 2: understand something. I said, I never see this generation players
Speaker 2: lay up. I mean it's always attack, attack, attack, And
Speaker 2: I said, why is that?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: Help me understand that? And he goes, Gary, these guys
Speaker 2: don't fear penalty strokes.
Speaker 3: And it was like whoa.
Speaker 2: That just blew my mind because in our day, out
Speaker 2: of bounds was a complete sin. I mean, you couldn't
Speaker 2: afford to hit a ball out of bounds. You're going
Speaker 2: to make a double bogie. And we didn't make that
Speaker 2: many birdies, so you know, you got to a hole
Speaker 2: where you weren't comfortable.
Speaker 3: It was tight. I mean, you know, you hit a
Speaker 3: one iron off the tee or whatever. And he goes.
Speaker 2: You have to remember that most of the golf courses
Speaker 2: that these guys play, they're going to reach probably three
Speaker 2: or maybe all four of the par fives and two.
Speaker 2: So they're literally playing par sixty eight or nine golf courses.
Speaker 2: If it's a par seventy two course.
Speaker 1: In their head, they're.
Speaker 3: Like in their head, in their head.
Speaker 1: And I saw recently Gary, but pretty much everybody on
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour every single year is under par on
Speaker 1: the par fix right right, So it's just full attack.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 2: So he goes, Look, if they feel like they're going
Speaker 2: to make two three birdies on the par fives, and
Speaker 2: they're probably going to make another birdie or two somewhere else.
Speaker 3: So if they go for the.
Speaker 2: Green and they hit a ball in the water and
Speaker 2: they make a bobie, it's not that big a deal.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: They're just not overly concerned about it because they know
Speaker 2: they're going to make enough birdies to still shoot a
Speaker 2: good score. And that was the most mind boggling thing
Speaker 2: to me because it was so opposite of how we played.
Speaker 2: I mean, we feared penalty strokes. I mean we you
Speaker 2: just you couldn't afford them because you just I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, if I made three birdies around average, three
Speaker 2: birdies around that was probably pretty good. You know, a
Speaker 2: little over three birdies that was great. Well, you know,
Speaker 2: if I hit it out of bounds on the whole,
Speaker 2: there goes, there goes the three birdies that I'm gonna make,
Speaker 2: and you know, you can't shoot a good score. So
Speaker 2: the mindset is just totally different. And look, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm an old fogie and you know sometimes I'm.
Speaker 3: Marvel and wonder.
Speaker 2: You know, can playing out of the rough from eighty
Speaker 2: yards be better than playing from the fairway at one hundred?
Speaker 2: I know where I'd prefer to play from. But obviously
Speaker 2: these guys have the statistics, they have the information, and
Speaker 2: they know that you know, closer yard of the whole,
Speaker 2: the better the score is going to be.
Speaker 1: I see Gary in twenty three. I mentioned at the
Speaker 1: beginning you won the Paint Store It award. Such an
Speaker 1: amazing honor to be given to you by your peers,
Speaker 1: by the PJ Tour. When you look back at your career,
Speaker 1: both on the course and off the course, Garret, what
Speaker 1: are you most proud of? Yeah, that's a good question, Claude.
Speaker 1: I you know, probably you know how you conducted yourself.
Speaker 1: You know, I was a I was a big, big
Speaker 1: Arnold Palmer fan when I was a kid. Actually got
Speaker 1: to play with him in an exhibition when I was
Speaker 1: seventeen years old, one of the greatest days of my
Speaker 1: entire life.
Speaker 3: And I can just remember how he made.
Speaker 2: Me feel that day, and how he made everybody that
Speaker 2: was around him feel. And that was always a big
Speaker 2: goal of mine.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I used to get letters from notes from my pro
Speaker 2: am partners saying, what a great day, appreciate it, thank
Speaker 2: you very much for being so you know, kind with
Speaker 2: your time and generous. And I would write him back
Speaker 2: and I say, look, I just treated you the way
Speaker 2: I'd like to be treated if the shoe was on
Speaker 2: the other foot. I mean, you know, it's not that
Speaker 2: big a deal. So how you know how I was
Speaker 2: able to conduct myself, obviously, is a big part of it.
Speaker 2: Peter Jacobson summed it up really nicely too me And
Speaker 2: Peter's a former pain Steward Award winner too, and he goes,
Speaker 2: you know, you play your way into the Hall of Fame,
Speaker 2: but your peers vote to you as the pain Steward
Speaker 2: Award winner, So you know, to be thought of that
Speaker 2: highly by your peers, uh, you know, for a long career.
Speaker 2: I mean I say, I played fifteen or sixteen years
Speaker 2: and did television for you know, another thirty two, so
Speaker 2: you know, it was almost a fifty year career involved
Speaker 2: with a PGA tour. And so to be able to
Speaker 2: be thought of that way by your by your peers is,
Speaker 2: as I said at the acceptance speech that night, it
Speaker 2: was clearly the highlight of my career.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's been so cool to talk to you. You know,
Speaker 1: I missing you and yeah, no team. Honestly, I think
Speaker 1: the game, you know, from a TV standpoint, from a
Speaker 1: broadcast standpoint, is lesser without you on the broadcast weekend
Speaker 1: and week out like you were for NBC. So it
Speaker 1: was just so special and and you know, I got
Speaker 1: to watch Sunday unfortunately DJ missed the cut and I'm
Speaker 1: sitting there watching the whole broadcast and I was like, man,
Speaker 1: it's an old school US Open, and it's an old
Speaker 1: school we got. We got Roger and Gary back. It
Speaker 1: was great. Yeah, great talking to you Gary, and hopefully
Speaker 1: we will get to see you against soon. But thanks
Speaker 1: for everything you do, and like I said, you've been
Speaker 1: such a part of the broadcast, part of golf over
Speaker 1: the last you know, twenty thirty years, and I sure
Speaker 1: as hell miss you.
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that, Claude. I also want to say
Speaker 2: thank you to you because you were one of the
Speaker 2: guys and anytime I needed some information about any one
Speaker 2: of your players and I would shoot a text to you,
Speaker 2: and even if it was in the middle of a telecast,
Speaker 2: I would get a response back right away saying, you
Speaker 2: know DJ's working on this, or this is a new
Speaker 2: putter in his bagged today, or Brooks is doing this,
Speaker 2: and you know it helped make the broadcast better when
Speaker 2: I can pass along information like that. So appreciate that
Speaker 2: you were a big help to me in my career.
Speaker 1: Well, you were one of the best, and we really
Speaker 1: appreciate it some of it. Butch comes to you most
Speaker 1: every week, Rate review, subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: It's the son of a Butch pupcast