WEBVTT - Animals Throwing Stuff, Part 2 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.280 My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:14.520 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.840 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:20.439 and we're back with part two of our series on 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:25.079 throwing behavior in animals. Now. In the previous episode we Foam, 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:30.080 we focused almost exclusively on allegations from a paper published 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:36.280 towards the end of last year in about octopuses throwing stuff, 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.760 or at least appearing to throw stuff deliberately at one another. 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.519 Often not just stuff as in like hard, uh singular objects, 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.440 but like fistfuls of sand ory just trying to throw 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.880 the silt right in each other's eyes. Yeah, that was 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:55.600 a lot of fun. Octopus is playing dirty. But I 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.120 had been looking around to try to find a good 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:02.080 ancient myth or story that centered on the act of throwing, 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.640 because it just seemed like there would be such a thing, right, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.720 like a throwing contest between the gods or something like that. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.600 And I think this must have been a common set 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.600 piece since time immemorial. I'm sure there are examples like that, 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.360 but I couldn't find a good one for today. However, 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.320 I did want to talk about a myth that draws 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.280 an interesting connection between an act of throwing and the 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.480 origin of human kind, or at least the present lineage 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:31.080 of humankind, and that is the Greek myth of Deucalion 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.080 and Pira. M No, this one's not ringing a bell 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.199 for me. If my son were around, I could perhaps 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:39.039 even he knows this one. But yeah, this is not 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.800 one that that that instantly springs into my head. Well 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.840 settle in. It's a good story. So the version of 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.320 the story I'm gonna reference is the one told in 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.920 Ovid's Metamorphoses. So this is going to include some some 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.240 Roman flare on the on the Greek myth. Ovid, of course, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.080 was a first century b c. Roman and poet, and 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:05.320 this is from his Metamorphoses, Book one, translated by Brooks More. Now, 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:09.280 the context of the of the story is that it's 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.240 sort of the Greek or Roman version of the Great 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.280 Flood story that we know from from other ancient texts 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.200 that we know from the Hebrew Bible, that we know 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.880 from the from the Epic of Gilgamesh and so forth. 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:25.120 So uh, in this version, after the primordial ages and 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.239 the origin of the gods and the giants and humankind, 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.360 the gods look down on Earth and they're like it stinks. 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:38.960 Human humans are awful, disgusting evil. There's a particular incident 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.840 that really makes the gods upset where this vile king 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.840 like Kon, tries to make Zeus and the gods do 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:50.240 cannibalism to test their omissions. So he kills his own son, 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.119 cooks him and tries to serve him to Zeus to see, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.280 like Zeus going to know that this is my son. Hilarious. Yeah, 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.160 I definitely remember like Kon, We've talked about him before. Yes, yes, 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.040 he has come up. So Zeus or Jupiter decides he's 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.280 going to destroy the world with a great flood, and 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.920 he does. It's brutal. Apparently only two humans are saved 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.639 from from the flood, and they're from the region of Folks. 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:20.480 They are a pious married couple named Ducalion, who is 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.239 the son of Prometheus, and Pira, who is the daughter 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.680 of Epimetheus. Now they survived the deluge, I think, on 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.160 a little boat and they end up beached on a mountaintop. 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.320 It might be the top of Mount Parnassus, but anyway 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:36.960 that they end up stranded on a mountain. The floodwaters received, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.000 so they survive, but the rest of humanity has been destroyed. 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.240 So what are they going to do now? Now they're 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.760 they're all alone, And because they are a pious couple, 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.280 they decide they should ask the gods for help. So 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.160 here I'm going to start reading from the brooks Moore 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.400 translation of Avid. And after he had spoken, they resolved 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.480 to ask the aid of sacred oracles. And so they 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:03.080 hastened to Kaffisian waves, which rolled a turbid flood in 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.920 channels known thence. When their robes and brows were sprinkled well, 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.840 they turned their footsteps to the goddess Fame. Its gables 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.400 were befouled with reeking moss, and on its altars every 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.880 fire was cold. But when the twain had reached the 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.320 temple steps, they fell upon the earth, inspired with awe, 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:26.279 and kiss the cold stone with their trembling lips, and said, 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:30.040 if righteous prayers appease the gods, and if the wrath 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.920 of high celestial powers may thus be turned, declare, oh 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.479 famous WinCE, and what the art may raise humanity, Oh 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:43.680 gentle Goddess, help the dying world. Okay, so they turned 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:45.400 to the gods for help. They go to the temple 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.920 of Famous. Of course, all the fires have gone out 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.599 because it's been flooding, and it's covered with reeking moss, 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.760 So the temples even nasty now. But still they're going 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:54.760 to kneel down and kiss the stones of the temple 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.719 to show how how holy they are. And they asked 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.840 Famous for help, and Famous reply, so the poem goes on. 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.200 Moved by their supplications, she replied, depart from me and 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.480 veil your brows, ungourge your robes, and cast behind you 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:15.640 as you go the bones of your great mother. Long 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.960 they stood in dumb amazement. Pierra first a voice refused 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.839 the mandate, and with trembling lips, implored the goddess to forgive. 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.520 She feared to violate her mother's bones and vex her 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:32.720 sacred spirit. Often pondered they the words involved in such obscurity, 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:38.440 repeating oft and thus Dukalian to Epimetheus's daughter uttered speech 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:42.600 of soothing. Import oracles are just, and urge not evil 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:46.360 deeds or not avails the skill of thought. Our mother 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.240 is the earth, and I may judge the stones of 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.560 earth are bones that we should cast behind us as 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:58.680 we go. Oh okay, so some some textual interpretation coming 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.800 in here, all right, So basically the world has ended. 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:04.920 They've come to the oracle the and they say, Oracle, 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.640 what should we do? Oracle says, you need to take 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.360 your robe off and throw your mother's bones around as 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.479 you go behind you, right, But Pierre doesn't like this, 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.279 so yeah, I think, I think. I think if I'm 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.080 interpreting this right when they're saying oracle here, they're talking 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.119 about the goddess Famous speaking to them, because I think, uh, 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:25.559 this would not be a human oracle at this point. 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.159 But yes, Famous, I think or whoever he is speaking 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.880 the oracle here, I guess it's Famous directly says yeah, 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.200 take your mother's bones, throw you wear your clothes loosely, 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.680 ungird your robes, so kind of just like, uh, you know, 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.920 sag your robes around and throw your mother's bones behind you. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.280 Pira is like, I'm not I can't do that my 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:48.080 mother's but that would be really impious and I'm especially pious. 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.640 But Dukalian has the solution. No, no, no, this doesn't 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.919 mean your mother's bones. It's a metaphor. Our mother is 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.080 the earth and the bones of the earth are stones. 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.120 Makes sense, Okay, the oracle could have been a little 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:03.960 more clear from the get go on that, but but 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:08.400 fair enough agree, So the poem goes on. And although Pierre, 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.640 by his words, was moved, she hesitated to comply, And 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.520 both amazed doubted the purpose of the oracle, but deemed 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:19.320 no harm to come of trial. They descended from the temple, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.880 veiled their heads, and loosened their robes, and threw some 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:27.120 stones behind them. It is much beyond belief. We're not 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:32.920 receding ages. Witness, hard and rigid stones assumed a softer form, 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.880 enlarging as their brittle nature changed to mild their substance, 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:41.560 until the shape of man appeared imperfect, faintly outlined, first 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:46.160 as marble statue, chiseled in the rough, The soft, moist 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.680 parts were changed to softer flesh, the hard and brittle 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:54.720 substance into bones. The veins retained their ancient name. And 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:59.040 now the God's supreme ordained that every stone Deukalian through 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.920 should take form of man, and those by pura cast 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:07.360 should woman's form assume. So are we hardy to endure, 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.200 and proved by toil and deeds from what we sprung. 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.880 So they do it, They throw the stones, And what 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.400 do you know? It works. All the stones Pia throws 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.760 become women, all the stones Doucalian throws become men. And 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.960 I like the moral here. The fact that the new 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.840 generation of humans, I guess the present one surviving emerged 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.080 from stones in this telling is why humans are are 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.080 so rough and ready. Like humans can get things done there, 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:37.280 they can do hard work. They can they can really 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.320 take a beating and keep on going. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.840 and I think there might be some kind of interesting 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:50.440 evolutionary pressions in this story about the present generation of 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:54.319 humans arising from an act of throwing stones, because I 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.000 think you could make the argument that throwing stones or 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:02.520 throwing uh items shinned out of stone is an early 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:08.160 human technological advancement that is pivotal in the the arising 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:12.760 regime of technologies and behaviors associated with those technologies that 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:17.240 create human culture. Yeah. Absolutely. I hate to keep going 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:21.480 back to the the introduction to two thousand and one 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:23.800 of Space Odyssey, but we have discussed it a lot, 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.760 and we've actually had an expert on the show to 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.199 to discuss it with us before. But yeah, I mean, 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.960 even in that uh presentation, we see the idea that, yes, 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.880 the the use of tools uh as a melee application, 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.840 but also arranged application, and our ability to throw things 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:48.520 at threats, perceived threats other individuals, either as a direct 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.960 weapon or as a communication of intent. H is an 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.959 important part of of human technology and the the advent 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.920 of human technology. But while some of the most note 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.960 examples of non human animals throwing or found in primates, Rob, 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.160 I think you wanted to get us started today by 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:11.079 talking about elephants, right, Yeah, Yeah, elephants were one that 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.600 jumped out at me because I, you know, I I'm 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.520 fascinated by elephants, but I hadn't really read much about 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:21.640 their ability to throw things. Uh, So I dove into 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.920 this a good bit. Now, um, I wanna advise everyone 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.120 that I am going to get a little bit into 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.280 the history of war elephants in this. I'm gonna try 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.400 not to dwell on any of the you know, the 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:37.320 gory details, but war is inherently cruel and monstrous, and 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:43.280 warfare involving animals is also cruel and monstrous, um and 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.600 at the same time fascinating. So yeah, I realized I'm 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.199 something of a hypocrite on this myself, and that I 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.040 I spend a certain part of every day horrified and 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.840 fearful of warfare, and yet um, you know, ancient warfare 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.160 is is a fascinating topic that I keep coming back 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.680 to and actually find find p in in in studying 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.400 and reading about and then uh covering on the podcast. 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:13.640 So there you go, Bill, please tell me more than 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:20.080 thank so. Elephants have long been reported to throw things. Uh, 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.480 They've been seen to throw rocks at other animals. Uh. 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:27.160 There's even at least one case and when an elephant 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.800 was able to fatally hit a human in a zoo environment. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.080 This was in Morocco back in You can look up 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.560 news reports on this if if you want to see more. 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:39.800 But even in the while, there are some there's some 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.280 impressive footage that you'll find online of say, I think 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.560 there's one of a of an elephant in Africa throwing 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.600 a rock in the direction of a rhinoceros near a 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:52.760 water hole environment, you know where there's a lot of 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:59.520 interspecies interaction and standoffs. Uh. There's also footage I was 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.439 looking of an elephant again. This was an African elephant 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:06.840 throwing a branch at a at a at a tourist 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.120 who is out in a jeep to observe the elephants, 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.000 and then the elephant is essentially I guess saying I 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.600 don't really want to be observed right now. Here have 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.439 the branch of a small tree. Uh. So they definitely 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.280 can throw things when they want to throw things, and 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.280 you can certainly break down a lot of why they're 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.760 throwing things. You know, there are as a communication as 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.840 a as an actual and actual attack. Uh, you know, 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.760 some sort of expression of aggression. A lot of what 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.800 we talked about regarding the octopus is very much in 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.839 play here now. In trying to picture this act of throwing, 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.280 I'm assuming that it is done with the trunk generally, Yes, yeah, 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.920 definitely the trunk um and all of this really anytime 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.559 we're in talking about elephants throwing things. This is all 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.800 just a subset of a larger study of elephant tool 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.000 use that's been going on for quite some time. Uh, 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:04.800 multiple studies, uh, multiple observations. There's a lot of interesting 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.040 data out there concerning not only aggressive use of branches 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.480 and rocks wielded or thrown, but also the use of 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:17.120 sticks or branches in grooming, thermoregulation and fly swatting. Um. 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.760 Something that Charles Darwin apparently commented upon as well fly 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:25.280 swatting interesting. Yeah, yeah, so there are other things too, 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.520 like the manipulation of branches to weigh down fences so 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.320 as to cross over them. Uh. And sometimes there there 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.679 may be examples two of them retaining certain sticks of 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.440 for for use as a tool. Um so, you know, 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.800 not sticking in their pocket or anything, but um, but 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.320 behavior that seems to indicate that once a stick is useful, 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.360 they may hang onto it for at least a little 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.720 bit in order to keep using it. So it's not 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.040 just it's not like this kind of random interaction like, oh, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.480 there happens to be a stick in my truck. We well, 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:00.920 I can sympathize with that because that I'm when I 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.440 find a good stick. You know, not all sticks are equal, 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.600 that some sticks are way better than others. And when 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:08.199 you find a good stick, you kind of don't want 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.360 to let it go. Oh. Yes. One especially sees this 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.680 in in children on walks. Once they find a good stick, 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.120 they absolutely don't want to put it away, even if 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:18.840 they keep almost hitting people in the face with it. 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.160 So anyway, as far as elephants go, though, one of 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.080 the more interesting ideas out there, however, is that tool 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:31.560 use in elephants emerges primarily to contend with thermoregulation and parasites, uh, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:37.120 basically parasite control. Both of these are important because the elephant, 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.680 of course, basically has has no hair, and so it's 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.800 a fertiless creature. And we tend to think of elephant 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:47.760 skin as is thick and hard and sufficient protection against flies, 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.960 but this isn't quite the case. Pain and blood loss 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.200 from flies seems to be sufficient to provide for the 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.200 natural selection of swatter usage. So being able to pick 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.120 up a stick, small branch, it said, and using that 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.200 with the trunk to swat away these troublesome insects that 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.680 again are messing with the expansive skin of the elephant 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.400 that is far more sensitive than you might give it credit. 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:15.040 And the elephant has limited abilities to shoot those flies. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.320 It has the tail, it has expansive ears, of course, 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.160 but mainly it's depending on that trunk, and you can 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.880 extend that trunk via tool use, via a small branch 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.280 or stick and use that to swat away the flies. 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.920 Now this is swatting, not throwing the stick it flies 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.120 that I don't think really wouldn't necessarily makes sense, and 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.960 I yet to see anything about throwing as being a 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.480 direct part of either activity thermoregulation of their their expansive skin, 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.120 or regulation of parasites. So I think it's one of 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:47.840 those things we might see a sort of a side 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.120 skill of all that, an add on skill that comes 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:55.160 via the the the evolution of this amazing trunk and 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.680 all the abilities of this trunk as well as just 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.120 their their ability to use tools. Yeah, well, you can 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:05.720 imagine throwing as um as at least possibly on a 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.600 continuum with the extended reach you get from a tool. 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.160 So you know, by picking up a stick you in 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.360 effect make your arm longer, you can hit or reach 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.240 it something farther away than you can with your biological arm. 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.800 And then if you could release that stick at just 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:21.920 the right time, it could fact could in fact go 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.720 even further. Yeah, so the basic ability here is not 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.720 at all surprising. The elephant trunk is a highly tactile 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.360 proboscis composed of some forty muscles. That this is a 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.320 frequently sided number anyway, though I do see some different 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.400 figures out out there. But anyway, you shake it, whatever 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:43.000 the number happens to be, it it dwarfs the sum 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.160 six and fifty muscles in the human body. Well, maybe 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:47.960 just because I have them on the brain, But I 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:53.160 almost want to compare the elephant's trunk to an octopus's arm. Yeah, yeah, 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.040 I mean I think there's a lot to compare there, 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.800 just in terms of how much ability there is for 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.480 the further trunk to move around. Well, I think I'm 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.440 also thinking about that because there are no bones within 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.680 the trunk, so like our arms and fingers have bones 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.199 in them that make them rigid along a certain you know, 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.960 axes of motion, whereas the elephants trunk has no bones 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.879 at all. It's it's a mass of like muscles and fats, 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.440 So it has a kind of almost octopus like I mean, 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.040 not truly, not truly octopus like, but more in the 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.479 octopus e direction. Uh, in a range of motion and 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.399 kind of floppiness. Yeah. Absolutely. Um. One of the papers 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.159 I was looking at for this section is from Scott L. 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:42.920 Hooper in one edition of Current Biology of Papers titled 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.000 Motor Control Elephant trunks ignore the many and choose the few. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.199 In this Hooper writes, quote, the elephant trunk is a 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.840 muscular hydrostat with essentially infinite freedom of movement. Now, the 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.919 paper itself here is the title suggests, explores how the 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.600 elephant focuses on certain ways of move thing the trunk 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:04.119 to achieve various objectives. Again, this is interesting because unlike 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.200 with something like the human arm, the possible movements are 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.320 far less restricted. Like you say, it's it's not like 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.000 an arm where you have. Yes, the human arm is 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.679 amazing in what it can do and the range of 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.719 motion that it has, but still there are limitations in place, 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.880 just based on how it is constructed the bones, the ligaments, etcetera. 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.560 Like you can't bend your forearm in the middle of 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.840 your forearm, or you can't build bend your elbow backwards 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.520 right Like it would be interesting to see a list 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.080 like all the possible ways you might move your arm 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.399 in all of the like the small differences, all the 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:45.000 different ways you might scratch your nose. However, many methods 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.439 you come up with, however many movements you're able to 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.880 decipher the elephant and that it is just is gonna 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:53.840 have you beat every day, Like there's just so many 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.160 more ways for it to potentially move its trunk. And 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.359 this was really interesting. In the paper, the author points 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.600 out that when control for body and brain size, Elephant 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:09.400 cerebellums are physically much larger than expected, and that five 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.000 of elephant brain neurons are in the cella bellus sarah cerebellum. Uh. 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:15.600 This is a part of the brain that is, among 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.360 other things, associated with fine motor control and movement error correction. 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.159 So they point out that quote. It is tempting to 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:26.520 hypothesize that this extreme hypertrophy is due to the greatly 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:37.720 increased motor control challenges a muscular hydrostatic trunk poses. Thank 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:42.640 thank thank so. Anyway, in general, though, there's a great 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.080 deal that an elephant can do with its trunk, and 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:48.240 many things that it does far more often with said trunk. 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.720 But clear though throwing behavior again has been observed. They're 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:56.600 perfectly capable of throwing branches, rocks, and in cases of 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:02.399 hostile interaction, yes, other organisms including people. Oh. One question 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:04.920 that ended up coming up from me though, is can 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:08.600 they throw arrows? And um, I hadn't thought about this, 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:12.399 there's but I ran across this interesting passage in Plenty 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.280 of the Elders the Natural History. So if you have 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.440 your stuff to blow your mind, plenty of the Elder 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.600 punch card, please go ahead and put another star punch 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:24.520 through there, and you're one star closer to your gigantic HOGI. 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.639 So um, I'm going to read from plenty here. Quote 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.760 uh and just as a reminder, plenty of course first 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.919 centuries see Roman author that we've discussed many times on 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.879 the show. Quote. The first harnessed elephants that were seen 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.760 at Rome were in the triumph of Pompeius Magnus over Africa, 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.359 when they drew his chariot, a thing that is said 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.720 to have been done long before at the triumph of 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.520 Father liber on the conquest of India. Priscilius says that 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.120 those which were used at the triumph of Pompeius were 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.720 unable to go in harness through the gate of the city. 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:04.040 In exhibition of gladiators, which was given by Germanicus, the 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.159 elephants performed a sort of dance. With their uncouth and 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.120 irregular movements. It was a common thing to see them 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:14.080 throw arrows with such strength that the wind was unable 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.520 to turn them from their course, to imitate among themselves 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.639 the combats of the gladiators, and to frolic through the 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.800 steps of pyrrhic dance. After this, too, they walked upon 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.439 the tight rope, and four of them would carry a 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:31.000 litter in which lay a fifth meaning a fifth fifth 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:35.400 elephant which represented a woman lying in They afterwards took 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.320 their place, and so nicely did they manage their steps 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:40.639 that they did not so much as touch any of 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.000 those who were drinking there. Huh. So I have a 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.399 kind of mixed reaction to that. On one hand, I 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:49.960 think it's quite clear from you know, modern examples, that 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:53.119 elephants can be trained to do all kinds of interesting things. 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.040 They are intelligent animals, and they have a very adroit 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:00.960 uh manipulation ability through their trunk. And yet I feel 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.040 kind of doubtful when it says this thing about the arrows, 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.880 that they are able to throw the arrows with such 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.560 strength that the wind was unable to turn them from 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.840 their course. I guess I'm imagining from that statement, though 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.679 it doesn't directly say this, that it's like throwing arrows 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.920 as if into a target so actually aimed, so they 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:23.480 go tip first and hit something even when the wind 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.880 is blowing. I don't know if Plenty doesn't actually say that, 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:30.560 but that I would assume that's what he means. Yeah, Yeah, 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:32.560 I wasn't sure how to take the wind thing either 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:34.880 if that's if that's something that we should focus on, 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:37.719 or if perhaps you know something lost in translation here 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:39.359 and through the ages, that this is just kind of 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:43.760 a standard way of describing an arrow being um uh 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:46.360 fired with precision. You know, Yeah, well, I guess it's 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:48.639 the precision I wonder about, Like, if he's just saying 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.960 that that like they can throw arrows, sure, I guess 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.840 that that that doesn't seem controversial, like they could throw sticks. 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.440 If he's saying they could throw the arrow with the 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:02.040 kind of like point forward precision that an archer can 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:04.440 shoot an arrow, then I'm like, oh, whoa, I don't 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:06.800 know about that. Yeah, he makes them sound like they're 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:11.399 natural sharpshooters. And and granted, most of this description is 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.960 clearly describing elephants that have been trained to perform for 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:17.960 the amusement of humans, but it's reference in combat. It's 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.480 referencing war elephants as well, So you know, part of 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.280 me was wondering, it's like, did did they train did 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.679 they actually train elephants to throw arrows? Did they have 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:29.600 any kind of combat initiative in mind? Here? Surely not? 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:33.120 And also wondering just is this at all accurate? Can 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:37.199 elephants do this? And on the on that side of 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:41.680 the the issue here, indeed, Asian elephants are still trained 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.119 to throw darts at balloons as a spectacle. This is 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:48.480 again something that you can look up multiple videos of online. 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:51.840