1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our series on 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: throwing behavior in animals. Now. In the previous episode we Foam, 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: we focused almost exclusively on allegations from a paper published 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: towards the end of last year in about octopuses throwing stuff, 8 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: or at least appearing to throw stuff deliberately at one another. 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: Often not just stuff as in like hard, uh singular objects, 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: but like fistfuls of sand ory just trying to throw 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: the silt right in each other's eyes. Yeah, that was 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Octopus is playing dirty. But I 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: had been looking around to try to find a good 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: ancient myth or story that centered on the act of throwing, 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: because it just seemed like there would be such a thing, right, 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: like a throwing contest between the gods or something like that. 17 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: And I think this must have been a common set 18 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: piece since time immemorial. I'm sure there are examples like that, 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: but I couldn't find a good one for today. However, 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: I did want to talk about a myth that draws 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: an interesting connection between an act of throwing and the 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: origin of human kind, or at least the present lineage 23 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: of humankind, and that is the Greek myth of Deucalion 24 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: and Pira. M No, this one's not ringing a bell 25 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 1: for me. If my son were around, I could perhaps 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: even he knows this one. But yeah, this is not 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: one that that that instantly springs into my head. Well 28 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: settle in. It's a good story. So the version of 29 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: the story I'm gonna reference is the one told in 30 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: Ovid's Metamorphoses. So this is going to include some some 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: Roman flare on the on the Greek myth. Ovid, of course, 32 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: was a first century b c. Roman and poet, and 33 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: this is from his Metamorphoses, Book one, translated by Brooks More. Now, 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: the context of the of the story is that it's 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: sort of the Greek or Roman version of the Great 36 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: Flood story that we know from from other ancient texts 37 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: that we know from the Hebrew Bible, that we know 38 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: from the from the Epic of Gilgamesh and so forth. 39 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: So uh, in this version, after the primordial ages and 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: the origin of the gods and the giants and humankind, 41 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: the gods look down on Earth and they're like it stinks. 42 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: Human humans are awful, disgusting evil. There's a particular incident 43 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: that really makes the gods upset where this vile king 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: like Kon, tries to make Zeus and the gods do 45 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: cannibalism to test their omissions. So he kills his own son, 46 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 1: cooks him and tries to serve him to Zeus to see, 47 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: like Zeus going to know that this is my son. Hilarious. Yeah, 48 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: I definitely remember like Kon, We've talked about him before. Yes, yes, 49 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: he has come up. So Zeus or Jupiter decides he's 50 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: going to destroy the world with a great flood, and 51 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: he does. It's brutal. Apparently only two humans are saved 52 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: from from the flood, and they're from the region of Folks. 53 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: They are a pious married couple named Ducalion, who is 54 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: the son of Prometheus, and Pira, who is the daughter 55 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: of Epimetheus. Now they survived the deluge, I think, on 56 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: a little boat and they end up beached on a mountaintop. 57 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: It might be the top of Mount Parnassus, but anyway 58 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: that they end up stranded on a mountain. The floodwaters received, 59 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: so they survive, but the rest of humanity has been destroyed. 60 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: So what are they going to do now? Now they're 61 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: they're all alone, And because they are a pious couple, 62 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: they decide they should ask the gods for help. So 63 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: here I'm going to start reading from the brooks Moore 64 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: translation of Avid. And after he had spoken, they resolved 65 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: to ask the aid of sacred oracles. And so they 66 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: hastened to Kaffisian waves, which rolled a turbid flood in 67 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: channels known thence. When their robes and brows were sprinkled well, 68 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: they turned their footsteps to the goddess Fame. Its gables 69 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: were befouled with reeking moss, and on its altars every 70 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: fire was cold. But when the twain had reached the 71 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: temple steps, they fell upon the earth, inspired with awe, 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: and kiss the cold stone with their trembling lips, and said, 73 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: if righteous prayers appease the gods, and if the wrath 74 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: of high celestial powers may thus be turned, declare, oh 75 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: famous WinCE, and what the art may raise humanity, Oh 76 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: gentle Goddess, help the dying world. Okay, so they turned 77 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: to the gods for help. They go to the temple 78 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: of Famous. Of course, all the fires have gone out 79 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: because it's been flooding, and it's covered with reeking moss, 80 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: So the temples even nasty now. But still they're going 81 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: to kneel down and kiss the stones of the temple 82 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: to show how how holy they are. And they asked 83 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: Famous for help, and Famous reply, so the poem goes on. 84 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: Moved by their supplications, she replied, depart from me and 85 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: veil your brows, ungourge your robes, and cast behind you 86 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: as you go the bones of your great mother. Long 87 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: they stood in dumb amazement. Pierra first a voice refused 88 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: the mandate, and with trembling lips, implored the goddess to forgive. 89 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: She feared to violate her mother's bones and vex her 90 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: sacred spirit. Often pondered they the words involved in such obscurity, 91 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: repeating oft and thus Dukalian to Epimetheus's daughter uttered speech 92 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: of soothing. Import oracles are just, and urge not evil 93 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: deeds or not avails the skill of thought. Our mother 94 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: is the earth, and I may judge the stones of 95 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: earth are bones that we should cast behind us as 96 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: we go. Oh okay, so some some textual interpretation coming 97 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: in here, all right, So basically the world has ended. 98 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: They've come to the oracle the and they say, Oracle, 99 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: what should we do? Oracle says, you need to take 100 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: your robe off and throw your mother's bones around as 101 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: you go behind you, right, But Pierre doesn't like this, 102 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think, I think. I think if I'm 103 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: interpreting this right when they're saying oracle here, they're talking 104 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,119 Speaker 1: about the goddess Famous speaking to them, because I think, uh, 105 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,559 Speaker 1: this would not be a human oracle at this point. 106 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: But yes, Famous, I think or whoever he is speaking 107 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: the oracle here, I guess it's Famous directly says yeah, 108 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: take your mother's bones, throw you wear your clothes loosely, 109 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: ungird your robes, so kind of just like, uh, you know, 110 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: sag your robes around and throw your mother's bones behind you. 111 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: Pira is like, I'm not I can't do that my 112 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: mother's but that would be really impious and I'm especially pious. 113 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: But Dukalian has the solution. No, no, no, this doesn't 114 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: mean your mother's bones. It's a metaphor. Our mother is 115 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: the earth and the bones of the earth are stones. 116 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: Makes sense, Okay, the oracle could have been a little 117 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: more clear from the get go on that, but but 118 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: fair enough agree, So the poem goes on. And although Pierre, 119 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: by his words, was moved, she hesitated to comply, And 120 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: both amazed doubted the purpose of the oracle, but deemed 121 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: no harm to come of trial. They descended from the temple, 122 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: veiled their heads, and loosened their robes, and threw some 123 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: stones behind them. It is much beyond belief. We're not 124 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: receding ages. Witness, hard and rigid stones assumed a softer form, 125 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: enlarging as their brittle nature changed to mild their substance, 126 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: until the shape of man appeared imperfect, faintly outlined, first 127 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: as marble statue, chiseled in the rough, The soft, moist 128 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: parts were changed to softer flesh, the hard and brittle 129 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: substance into bones. The veins retained their ancient name. And 130 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: now the God's supreme ordained that every stone Deukalian through 131 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: should take form of man, and those by pura cast 132 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: should woman's form assume. So are we hardy to endure, 133 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: and proved by toil and deeds from what we sprung. 134 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: So they do it, They throw the stones, And what 135 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: do you know? It works. All the stones Pia throws 136 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: become women, all the stones Doucalian throws become men. And 137 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: I like the moral here. The fact that the new 138 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: generation of humans, I guess the present one surviving emerged 139 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: from stones in this telling is why humans are are 140 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: so rough and ready. Like humans can get things done there, 141 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: they can do hard work. They can they can really 142 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: take a beating and keep on going. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, 143 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: and I think there might be some kind of interesting 144 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: evolutionary pressions in this story about the present generation of 145 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: humans arising from an act of throwing stones, because I 146 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: think you could make the argument that throwing stones or 147 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: throwing uh items shinned out of stone is an early 148 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: human technological advancement that is pivotal in the the arising 149 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: regime of technologies and behaviors associated with those technologies that 150 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: create human culture. Yeah. Absolutely. I hate to keep going 151 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: back to the the introduction to two thousand and one 152 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: of Space Odyssey, but we have discussed it a lot, 153 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: and we've actually had an expert on the show to 154 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: to discuss it with us before. But yeah, I mean, 155 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: even in that uh presentation, we see the idea that, yes, 156 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: the the use of tools uh as a melee application, 157 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: but also arranged application, and our ability to throw things 158 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: at threats, perceived threats other individuals, either as a direct 159 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: weapon or as a communication of intent. H is an 160 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 1: important part of of human technology and the the advent 161 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: of human technology. But while some of the most note 162 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: examples of non human animals throwing or found in primates, Rob, 163 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: I think you wanted to get us started today by 164 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: talking about elephants, right, Yeah, Yeah, elephants were one that 165 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: jumped out at me because I, you know, I I'm 166 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: fascinated by elephants, but I hadn't really read much about 167 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: their ability to throw things. Uh, So I dove into 168 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: this a good bit. Now, um, I wanna advise everyone 169 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: that I am going to get a little bit into 170 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: the history of war elephants in this. I'm gonna try 171 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: not to dwell on any of the you know, the 172 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: gory details, but war is inherently cruel and monstrous, and 173 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: warfare involving animals is also cruel and monstrous, um and 174 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: at the same time fascinating. So yeah, I realized I'm 175 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: something of a hypocrite on this myself, and that I 176 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: I spend a certain part of every day horrified and 177 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: fearful of warfare, and yet um, you know, ancient warfare 178 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: is is a fascinating topic that I keep coming back 179 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: to and actually find find p in in in studying 180 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: and reading about and then uh covering on the podcast. 181 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: So there you go, Bill, please tell me more than 182 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: thank so. Elephants have long been reported to throw things. Uh, 183 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: They've been seen to throw rocks at other animals. Uh. 184 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: There's even at least one case and when an elephant 185 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: was able to fatally hit a human in a zoo environment. 186 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: This was in Morocco back in You can look up 187 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: news reports on this if if you want to see more. 188 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: But even in the while, there are some there's some 189 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: impressive footage that you'll find online of say, I think 190 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: there's one of a of an elephant in Africa throwing 191 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: a rock in the direction of a rhinoceros near a 192 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: water hole environment, you know where there's a lot of 193 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: interspecies interaction and standoffs. Uh. There's also footage I was 194 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: looking of an elephant again. This was an African elephant 195 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: throwing a branch at a at a at a tourist 196 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: who is out in a jeep to observe the elephants, 197 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: and then the elephant is essentially I guess saying I 198 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: don't really want to be observed right now. Here have 199 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: the branch of a small tree. Uh. So they definitely 200 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: can throw things when they want to throw things, and 201 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: you can certainly break down a lot of why they're 202 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: throwing things. You know, there are as a communication as 203 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: a as an actual and actual attack. Uh, you know, 204 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: some sort of expression of aggression. A lot of what 205 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: we talked about regarding the octopus is very much in 206 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: play here now. In trying to picture this act of throwing, 207 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that it is done with the trunk generally, Yes, yeah, 208 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: definitely the trunk um and all of this really anytime 209 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: we're in talking about elephants throwing things. This is all 210 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: just a subset of a larger study of elephant tool 211 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: use that's been going on for quite some time. Uh, 212 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: multiple studies, uh, multiple observations. There's a lot of interesting 213 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: data out there concerning not only aggressive use of branches 214 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: and rocks wielded or thrown, but also the use of 215 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: sticks or branches in grooming, thermoregulation and fly swatting. Um. 216 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: Something that Charles Darwin apparently commented upon as well fly 217 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: swatting interesting. Yeah, yeah, so there are other things too, 218 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: like the manipulation of branches to weigh down fences so 219 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: as to cross over them. Uh. And sometimes there there 220 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: may be examples two of them retaining certain sticks of 221 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: for for use as a tool. Um so, you know, 222 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: not sticking in their pocket or anything, but um, but 223 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: behavior that seems to indicate that once a stick is useful, 224 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: they may hang onto it for at least a little 225 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: bit in order to keep using it. So it's not 226 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: just it's not like this kind of random interaction like, oh, 227 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: there happens to be a stick in my truck. We well, 228 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: I can sympathize with that because that I'm when I 229 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: find a good stick. You know, not all sticks are equal, 230 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: that some sticks are way better than others. And when 231 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: you find a good stick, you kind of don't want 232 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: to let it go. Oh. Yes. One especially sees this 233 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: in in children on walks. Once they find a good stick, 234 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: they absolutely don't want to put it away, even if 235 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: they keep almost hitting people in the face with it. 236 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: So anyway, as far as elephants go, though, one of 237 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: the more interesting ideas out there, however, is that tool 238 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: use in elephants emerges primarily to contend with thermoregulation and parasites, uh, 239 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: basically parasite control. Both of these are important because the elephant, 240 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: of course, basically has has no hair, and so it's 241 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: a fertiless creature. And we tend to think of elephant 242 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: skin as is thick and hard and sufficient protection against flies, 243 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: but this isn't quite the case. Pain and blood loss 244 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: from flies seems to be sufficient to provide for the 245 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: natural selection of swatter usage. So being able to pick 246 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: up a stick, small branch, it said, and using that 247 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: with the trunk to swat away these troublesome insects that 248 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: again are messing with the expansive skin of the elephant 249 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: that is far more sensitive than you might give it credit. 250 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: And the elephant has limited abilities to shoot those flies. 251 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: It has the tail, it has expansive ears, of course, 252 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: but mainly it's depending on that trunk, and you can 253 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: extend that trunk via tool use, via a small branch 254 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: or stick and use that to swat away the flies. 255 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: Now this is swatting, not throwing the stick it flies 256 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: that I don't think really wouldn't necessarily makes sense, and 257 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: I yet to see anything about throwing as being a 258 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: direct part of either activity thermoregulation of their their expansive skin, 259 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: or regulation of parasites. So I think it's one of 260 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: those things we might see a sort of a side 261 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: skill of all that, an add on skill that comes 262 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: via the the the evolution of this amazing trunk and 263 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: all the abilities of this trunk as well as just 264 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: their their ability to use tools. Yeah, well, you can 265 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: imagine throwing as um as at least possibly on a 266 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: continuum with the extended reach you get from a tool. 267 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: So you know, by picking up a stick you in 268 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: effect make your arm longer, you can hit or reach 269 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: it something farther away than you can with your biological arm. 270 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: And then if you could release that stick at just 271 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: the right time, it could fact could in fact go 272 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: even further. Yeah, so the basic ability here is not 273 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: at all surprising. The elephant trunk is a highly tactile 274 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: proboscis composed of some forty muscles. That this is a 275 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: frequently sided number anyway, though I do see some different 276 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: figures out out there. But anyway, you shake it, whatever 277 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: the number happens to be, it it dwarfs the sum 278 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: six and fifty muscles in the human body. Well, maybe 279 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: just because I have them on the brain, But I 280 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: almost want to compare the elephant's trunk to an octopus's arm. Yeah, yeah, 281 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: I mean I think there's a lot to compare there, 282 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: just in terms of how much ability there is for 283 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: the further trunk to move around. Well, I think I'm 284 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: also thinking about that because there are no bones within 285 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: the trunk, so like our arms and fingers have bones 286 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: in them that make them rigid along a certain you know, 287 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: axes of motion, whereas the elephants trunk has no bones 288 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: at all. It's it's a mass of like muscles and fats, 289 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: So it has a kind of almost octopus like I mean, 290 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: not truly, not truly octopus like, but more in the 291 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 1: octopus e direction. Uh, in a range of motion and 292 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: kind of floppiness. Yeah. Absolutely. Um. One of the papers 293 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: I was looking at for this section is from Scott L. 294 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: Hooper in one edition of Current Biology of Papers titled 295 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: Motor Control Elephant trunks ignore the many and choose the few. 296 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: In this Hooper writes, quote, the elephant trunk is a 297 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: muscular hydrostat with essentially infinite freedom of movement. Now, the 298 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: paper itself here is the title suggests, explores how the 299 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: elephant focuses on certain ways of move thing the trunk 300 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: to achieve various objectives. Again, this is interesting because unlike 301 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: with something like the human arm, the possible movements are 302 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: far less restricted. Like you say, it's it's not like 303 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: an arm where you have. Yes, the human arm is 304 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: amazing in what it can do and the range of 305 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,719 Speaker 1: motion that it has, but still there are limitations in place, 306 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: just based on how it is constructed the bones, the ligaments, etcetera. 307 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: Like you can't bend your forearm in the middle of 308 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: your forearm, or you can't build bend your elbow backwards 309 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: right Like it would be interesting to see a list 310 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: like all the possible ways you might move your arm 311 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: in all of the like the small differences, all the 312 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: different ways you might scratch your nose. However, many methods 313 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: you come up with, however many movements you're able to 314 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: decipher the elephant and that it is just is gonna 315 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: have you beat every day, Like there's just so many 316 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: more ways for it to potentially move its trunk. And 317 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: this was really interesting. In the paper, the author points 318 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: out that when control for body and brain size, Elephant 319 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: cerebellums are physically much larger than expected, and that five 320 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: of elephant brain neurons are in the cella bellus sarah cerebellum. Uh. 321 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: This is a part of the brain that is, among 322 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: other things, associated with fine motor control and movement error correction. 323 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: So they point out that quote. It is tempting to 324 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: hypothesize that this extreme hypertrophy is due to the greatly 325 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: increased motor control challenges a muscular hydrostatic trunk poses. Thank 326 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: thank thank so. Anyway, in general, though, there's a great 327 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: deal that an elephant can do with its trunk, and 328 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: many things that it does far more often with said trunk. 329 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: But clear though throwing behavior again has been observed. They're 330 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: perfectly capable of throwing branches, rocks, and in cases of 331 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: hostile interaction, yes, other organisms including people. Oh. One question 332 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: that ended up coming up from me though, is can 333 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: they throw arrows? And um, I hadn't thought about this, 334 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: there's but I ran across this interesting passage in Plenty 335 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: of the Elders the Natural History. So if you have 336 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: your stuff to blow your mind, plenty of the Elder 337 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: punch card, please go ahead and put another star punch 338 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: through there, and you're one star closer to your gigantic HOGI. 339 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: So um, I'm going to read from plenty here. Quote 340 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: uh and just as a reminder, plenty of course first 341 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: centuries see Roman author that we've discussed many times on 342 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: the show. Quote. The first harnessed elephants that were seen 343 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: at Rome were in the triumph of Pompeius Magnus over Africa, 344 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: when they drew his chariot, a thing that is said 345 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: to have been done long before at the triumph of 346 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: Father liber on the conquest of India. Priscilius says that 347 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 1: those which were used at the triumph of Pompeius were 348 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: unable to go in harness through the gate of the city. 349 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: In exhibition of gladiators, which was given by Germanicus, the 350 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: elephants performed a sort of dance. With their uncouth and 351 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: irregular movements. It was a common thing to see them 352 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: throw arrows with such strength that the wind was unable 353 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: to turn them from their course, to imitate among themselves 354 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: the combats of the gladiators, and to frolic through the 355 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: steps of pyrrhic dance. After this, too, they walked upon 356 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: the tight rope, and four of them would carry a 357 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: litter in which lay a fifth meaning a fifth fifth 358 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: elephant which represented a woman lying in They afterwards took 359 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: their place, and so nicely did they manage their steps 360 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: that they did not so much as touch any of 361 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: those who were drinking there. Huh. So I have a 362 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: kind of mixed reaction to that. On one hand, I 363 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: think it's quite clear from you know, modern examples, that 364 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: elephants can be trained to do all kinds of interesting things. 365 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: They are intelligent animals, and they have a very adroit 366 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: uh manipulation ability through their trunk. And yet I feel 367 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: kind of doubtful when it says this thing about the arrows, 368 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: that they are able to throw the arrows with such 369 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: strength that the wind was unable to turn them from 370 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: their course. I guess I'm imagining from that statement, though 371 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: it doesn't directly say this, that it's like throwing arrows 372 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: as if into a target so actually aimed, so they 373 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: go tip first and hit something even when the wind 374 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: is blowing. I don't know if Plenty doesn't actually say that, 375 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: but that I would assume that's what he means. Yeah, Yeah, 376 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure how to take the wind thing either 377 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 1: if that's if that's something that we should focus on, 378 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 1: or if perhaps you know something lost in translation here 379 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: and through the ages, that this is just kind of 380 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: a standard way of describing an arrow being um uh 381 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: fired with precision. You know, Yeah, well, I guess it's 382 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: the precision I wonder about, Like, if he's just saying 383 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: that that like they can throw arrows, sure, I guess 384 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: that that that doesn't seem controversial, like they could throw sticks. 385 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: If he's saying they could throw the arrow with the 386 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: kind of like point forward precision that an archer can 387 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: shoot an arrow, then I'm like, oh, whoa, I don't 388 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: know about that. Yeah, he makes them sound like they're 389 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: natural sharpshooters. And and granted, most of this description is 390 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: clearly describing elephants that have been trained to perform for 391 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: the amusement of humans, but it's reference in combat. It's 392 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: referencing war elephants as well, So you know, part of 393 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: me was wondering, it's like, did did they train did 394 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: they actually train elephants to throw arrows? Did they have 395 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: any kind of combat initiative in mind? Here? Surely not? 396 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: And also wondering just is this at all accurate? Can 397 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: elephants do this? And on the on that side of 398 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: the the issue here, indeed, Asian elephants are still trained 399 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: to throw darts at balloons as a spectacle. This is 400 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: again something that you can look up multiple videos of online. 401 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: I don't think there's any trickery involved in these, it's 402 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: just they have they have trained the elephant, and the 403 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: elephant will take a dart, fling it with its trunk 404 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: and hit a balloon that's affixed to like a wooden 405 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: board or so something. Hold on a second, I am 406 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm taking a moment to watch this video. Okay, I 407 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: took a moment to watch video. I am simultaneously very impressed. 408 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: And it makes more sense now because at least in 409 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: the video you shared Robbed the Elephant dart throwing, it 410 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: is throwing a dart and hitting balloons and popping them. 411 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: But it is not a straight on line drive like 412 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: you know, like an archer would shoot an arrow. It's 413 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: more of a toss of a dart that happens to 414 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: land point first on the balloon and hit it right. 415 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: And you know, ethical concerns over training elephants for amusement aside. Yeah, 416 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: it's pretty impressive and I think it it certainly speaks 417 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: to the throwing ability of the elephants. Again, like you said, 418 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: the dart um uh throwing here is very much in 419 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: line with other kind of throwing feats one sees from elephants, 420 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: including some of these, uh, these these incidents that have 421 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: occurred in the wild or sort of more or less 422 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: in the wild. Yeah. Now, again, given the historical use 423 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: of Asian elephants in warfare, you might well wonder if 424 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: this ability was ever exploited for war because yes, war 425 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: elephants were a part of warfare and parts of the world. Um. 426 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: They were typically used though as powerful bulldozing steeds and 427 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: shock weapons. They could also serve as as a sort 428 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: of a weapons platform of sorts. You know, you could 429 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: have a place on top where not only is the 430 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: elephant ride or present, but perhaps someone uh brandishing a 431 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: spear or a bow of some of some sort. And 432 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: in some cases not only did you have additional armor 433 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: added to the the elephant uh. And I should probably 434 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't even say additional armor, just armor because again you 435 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: think of the skin of the elephant as being this 436 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: kind of like natural armor, and uh, you know, I 437 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: think for the most part, we're uh, we're dealing with 438 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: with with a part of the animals far more sensitive 439 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: than we think. So yeah, they're There are numerous examples 440 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: that survived today of the sort of armor that we 441 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: placed on the elephants. Sometimes that armor would be augmented 442 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: with spikes or blades, and there were also special elephant 443 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: swords that could be affixed to the tusks. I apologize 444 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: I can't remember where I read this, but I know 445 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: I've read at least one historians opinion before that elephants 446 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: in ancient warfare would have been more useful for psychological 447 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: impact than they were for direct like you know, mechanical 448 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: advantage on the battlefield, and that most of what you 449 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: could do with an elephant you could probably actually do 450 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: better with just cavalry manched on horses. Yeah, that that 451 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: lines up with a lot of what I've been reading here, 452 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: Like we we should not think of the war elephant 453 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,239 Speaker 1: is some sort of super weapon. Uh, it's it was 454 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: a specialized uh weapon, a specialized use of the elephant 455 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: and rider and various other weapons that needed support, UH 456 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: needed just the right situation to be useful and uh 457 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: and yeah, so there's a there's a lot of ins 458 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: and outs. You can't think of it again as this 459 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: thing that oh once one to introduce war elephants to 460 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: the game, you've got it. One one of the books 461 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: I was looking at here is a book by John 462 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: im Kissler titled War Elephants from two thousand and six, 463 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: And in this he mentions that this that some sources 464 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: mentioned blades affixed to trunk armor as well, though I 465 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: don't take that to mean I personally didn't take that 466 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: to mean that you would actually have some sort of 467 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: scenario where you would put a sword on the trunk 468 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: end of the elephants trunk. I think that would be 469 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: more like blades higher up on the armor that's kind 470 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: of protecting the front of the elephant's face. But he 471 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: this is a book that goes into depth on elephant warfare, 472 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: probably more than a lot of you really want to 473 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: want to read. I mean, it's a very readable, very 474 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: good book. But again, war is cruelty, and elephant warfare 475 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: is also just loaded with cruelty. There are a lot 476 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: of elephant deaths that are described in this. You know, 477 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: it gets into not only the gory particulars of waging 478 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: war with elephants, but also waging war against elephants. And 479 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: but there are certainly accounts that are mentioned in this 480 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: book of enemy soldiers being crushed and thrown by the 481 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: trunk of of the elephant, and in some cases um 482 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: throwing the horse as well, if it's encountering like a 483 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: man mounted on a horse. Now I I look through 484 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: this book, I did not find any examples of war 485 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: elephants actually throwing projectiles as a as an offensive weapon tactic. 486 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: Though it is mentioned that Skipio forced his elephants into 487 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: battle against Caesar's forces with rock slingers, So these would 488 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: have been human rock slingers marching behind the elephants, pelting 489 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: them with stones to get them to continue forward. Uh 490 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: So this would have been I think forty six BC. 491 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: So a lot of what you encounter with projectiles and 492 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: elephants are dealing with in this case making the elephants 493 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: move forward into battle um and and all the grizzly 494 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: realities that awaited them ahead. And then also you find 495 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: plenty of discussions of projectiles being used against elephants, such 496 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: as specialized like all metal arrows and so forth, darts, 497 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: um cow trops and other things that would be useful 498 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: fire added to projectiles as well that would be useful 499 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: in combating elephants that are used by your enemy. Kissler 500 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: also brings up an account from Plutarch's Life of Alexander 501 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: fourth century BC, in which the Indian king Porus was 502 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: said to ride in a war elephant that was so 503 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: loyal that at one point it softly kneels down and 504 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: begins to draw the enemy darts out of the king's 505 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: body so that he continued can continue fighting. And Kistler 506 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: weighs in on this and says, quote, such stories are 507 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: not preposterous. Elephants do form intimate bonds with their human 508 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: riders and have been known to protect their human friends 509 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: and may even die of grief when their partner is lost. 510 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: Megas Thinny is a contemporary of Alexander attest to both wow. However, 511 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: this of course is not dart throwing, natural or otherwise, 512 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: and Kistler makes no mention of elephants being trained to 513 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: throw weapons. I think it might take on this is 514 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: generally speaking, human army is capable of using war elephants 515 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: are going to also have access to much better throwing 516 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: projectile technology such as a bow used by a human, 517 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: even a sling used by a human, catapults and so forth. 518 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: Using a war elephant to throw a rock would just 519 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: be a misuse of the resource that you have there. Yeah, 520 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: that is not what the elephants are best at. Yeah, 521 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: uh and uh. And the Kissil gets into this a 522 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: little bit as well. He's speaking directly about the sieges 523 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: of Hannibal here, but he says, you're talking about the 524 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: limitations of the war elephant. Quote, elephants do not make 525 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: good siege weapons, but they do make excellent siege laborers. 526 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: So again, a situation where um it an't given moment, 527 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: an army that has elephants is going to have to 528 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: use them where they are, whether where they are most useful, 529 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: be it as a shock weapon or as just labor 530 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: to help operate the other weapons of war. So and 531 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: when it comes to bobbing projectiles at your enemies, better 532 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: I would imagine to have human archers a top or 533 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: near elephants to handle the range weaponry and allow the 534 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: elephants to do their thing, hopefully in a matter in 535 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: a manner that advances the front line rather than recedes it. 536 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: Because that's another thing you run into. Like the use 537 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: of the elephant on the battlefield. Um, it is kind 538 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: of there's kind of a contained chaos to it. Uh. 539 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: You definitely if you are the one using the elephants, 540 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: you want them to keep going towards the enemy and 541 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: not to to panic and turn back on your own forces. Yeah. Still, 542 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: there's certainly many accounts of war elephants grabbing, crushing, throwing 543 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: human adversaries, sometimes off their mounts, and then in some 544 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: cases inflicting such damage to them to the mount as well. Well. 545 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: This is interesting because it raises sort of a third 546 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: category of animal throwing behaviors that we didn't really get 547 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: to in the last episode. When we were talking about 548 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: that study on octopuses, we made the distinction between throwing 549 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: at and throwing away. So sometimes in octopus would quote 550 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: throw again to to remind you what the octopuses did 551 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: was not purely by like grasping something in the arm 552 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: and then rapidly extending the arm and releasing the object. 553 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: They would hold the object with their arms and then 554 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: blast the object with their funnel or siphon with a 555 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: jet of water to propel it through the water toward 556 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: a target, or at least allegedly toward a target. But 557 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: the two categories of throwing they talked about in this paper, 558 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: we're throwing at and throwing away. So throwing away is 559 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: just like you're trying to get something out of a 560 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: certain place, Like cleaning out your din would be a 561 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: throwing away behavior. You're trying to get all of the 562 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: scallop shells out of there, uh and and make a 563 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: make a clean place for you to settle down. Or 564 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: throwing at would be trying to hit a target here 565 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: you could have I don't know what this would be. 566 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: If you're like grabbing an adversary and throwing it, that's 567 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: not really throwing at or throwing away. The object of 568 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: the throwing is the object you're throwing, not an object 569 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: you're trying to hit. But you're also not just trying 570 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: to get it out of your way, you're trying to 571 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: harm it by throwing it. Yeah, I think there's there's 572 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: at least one account that the Kissler shares again from 573 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: from ancient writers, where someone is thrown and then they 574 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: hit a rock and it like breaks their back. But 575 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: that's it's hard to really weigh in on that. Like 576 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: was the elephant in this case throwing the human at 577 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: the rock or did they the elephant just throw this 578 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: human aside and they happened to land on a rock. 579 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: I wasn't alleging, Yeah, I wasn't alleging that the elephants 580 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: like knew what they were doing and that type of throwing. Yeah, 581 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,959 Speaker 1: but I think we have one more example of an 582 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: animal where that third category the the might you might say, 583 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: throwing into where the the main object of the throwing 584 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: is what happens to the object thrown, not the object 585 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: it's thrown at. And it's not just trying to get 586 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: the object out of your space. You're you're trying to 587 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: act upon the object by throwing it. And this comes 588 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: up with the mongoose. I was surprised by this. I 589 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: don't really know much about the mongoose, so I wasn't 590 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: expecting it to to be a projectile tool user or 591 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: a projectile Maybe not maybe tool user is going a 592 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: little too far, but a creature capable of throwing objects, um, yeah, 593 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: I wonder would this count of tool use or not. 594 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: I don't know what. We can talk about the details 595 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: and then see everything. Thank thank there are different families 596 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: of mongooses about thirty four species in total. They have 597 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: strong rodent vibes. There's definitely a rodent energy to them. 598 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: If you're unfamiliar with them, you having to see them, 599 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: if you have an end to be in a region 600 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: where you have mongooses around, you might think, oh, they 601 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: they're behaving much like rodents. They seem to be feel 602 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 1: feeling that that niche at the very least. But they're 603 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: actually more closely related to hyenas and fosces. They are 604 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: carnivores and they're pretty opportunistics, so they feed on vertebrates. 605 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 1: Invertebrates live prey, carry on their They're all about figuring 606 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: out how to go about getting their daily allotment of meat. 607 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: What kind of puzzles do I need to solve to 608 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: get my meat? What do I need to crawl into 609 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: to get my meat? Uh? And and uh And this 610 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: is this the kind of area where often we times 611 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: we see this more with the omnivores. Like we talked 612 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: about the raccoon before, this creature that that is savvy 613 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: and its ability to to find these different forms of food, 614 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 1: And here we see it with the carnivorous mongoose. Now 615 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: as they're trying to get at the meat. Sometimes the 616 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: thing about your meat. Sometimes the meat is you know, 617 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: smeared on the side of the road, or it's a 618 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: um or it's a nice and soft and easy to 619 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: tear into. But other times you'll find that the meat 620 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: that you desire is a mongoose is encased. Uh. This 621 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: would be the case with something like a millipede. There's 622 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: there's goosey stuff on the inside that you want to eat, 623 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: but there's hard stuff on the outside. Bird bird's eggs 624 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 1: are another example, hard on the outside, delicious and liquidity 625 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 1: in the middle. Beetles, balls of dung are all so 626 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: brought up in some of the sources I was looking at, 627 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: because the ball of dung might have, for instance, that 628 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: a beatle inside of it, and you want to get 629 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: at it. But on the outside you have perhaps this 630 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: hardened dung. So how are you going to get the 631 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: meat that is such so encased? Well? A reference that 632 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: comes up on this question is a paper from nineteen 633 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: sixty seven by Thomas Eisner and Joseph A. Davis, a 634 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: couple of biologists. I think one was affiliated with Cornell University, UH, 635 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: and I think maybe another with the Bronx Zoo. But 636 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: the paper is called Mongoose Throwing and Smashing Millipedes, published 637 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: in the journal Science. I actually had trouble finding the 638 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: full text on this one, but fortunately I was able 639 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: to sort of piece it together with some sections quoted 640 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: in books and a blog post I found summarizing it 641 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: by an archaeologist and named Michael Haslum. But the study 642 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: looked at a relationship between the mongoose and a genus 643 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: of af Can millipedes called sphero there Um sphero ethereum. 644 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: You want to do the etymology on that? What does 645 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: that mean? Ball beast? Now compared to the tiny roly 646 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: pulleys or pillbugs that we're used to here in the 647 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 1: Southern United States, rob these things the Spherotherium r. Indeed, 648 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: beasts some species are very large comparatively. I found a 649 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: picture of somebody holding one in their hand for scale, 650 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: and this one looks to be about the size of 651 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: an uncracked walnut. It's pretty big. They also have thick, 652 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: tough plates of armor compared to roly roly pullies or 653 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: pill bugs. And as a side note, I just wanted 654 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: to mention that our familiar roly pullies here are actually 655 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: not millipedes at all. They are isopod crustaceans, terrestrial crustaceans 656 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: that moved out of the sea to colonized land millions 657 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: of years ago. Huh. I don't think I quite realized that. 658 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: Way to go, roly police. But so okay to this study, 659 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: the authors were doing some testing to see what predatory 660 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: animals were able to get the meat. Like you're talking 661 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: about two as Mick Jagger would say, get the meat 662 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: to uncas the spherotherium's tough outer defenses and get it 663 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: what's inside if it balls up? Is this millipede basically invincible? 664 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 1: Or can anybody crack the nut? Uh? Now? In other 665 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: parts of this study, the spherotherium in ball modes survived 666 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: attacks by a colony of harvester ants, They survived attacks 667 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: by blue jays and uh certain species of mice. But then, 668 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 1: to read from the author's observations quote, the unexpected occurred 669 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: in tests with a banded mongoose or mongos mungo. The 670 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: predator responded instantly to the glomerrid, and that's referring to 671 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: the millipede. Here the glomerated sniffing it and rolling it 672 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: about with the pause. It seased it in the jaws, 673 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: biting upon it with sharp teeth, but the millipede was 674 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: neither punctured nor crushed. Suddenly, the millipede was dropped from 675 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: the jaw us and grasped with the front pause. The mongoose, 676 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: backed against a rocky ledge in the cage, assumed a 677 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 1: partially erect stance, and, with emotion so quick as to 678 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: be barely perceptible, hurled the millipede backward between its legs, 679 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: smashing it against the rocks. Fatally injured, with its shell 680 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: broken and its body torn apart, the millipede was promptly eaten. 681 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: This this is a great image. So first of all, um, 682 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer for this question, but I 683 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: do wonder about, like how strong the bite of the 684 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: mongoose is, Like maybe they're their their bite strength isn't 685 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: isn't as powerful as as would be required to say, 686 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: if you were going to actually bite down on this 687 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: millipede and crunch it in your mouth. Or maybe it 688 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: has to do with the size of the millipede. I 689 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: don't know. I found some some great images of of 690 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: a mongoose gnawing on an egg trying to sort of 691 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: get it's it's it's horrible little mouth around the egg, 692 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,919 Speaker 1: and and uh, I don't know. It might in this case, 693 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: perhaps the mongoose is able to actually bite through that 694 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: egg and crack it. Certainly an egg is different than 695 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,959 Speaker 1: than a hardened a large millipede. But like I said, 696 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: they have been observed to to take eggs and strike 697 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 1: them or throw them as well. So I don't know. 698 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: My second question that came out because I was looking 699 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: at some different sources, but I came across similar descriptions 700 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: and I was trying to picture it, and I was like, 701 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: am I picturing this right? Is this a granny shot? 702 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: Is this is? This is like the granny shot with 703 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: the with the bat? Well, I guess it's. Wait, no, 704 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: the granny shot is when you use your arms as 705 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: a pendulum between your legs and throw the ball. What 706 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: is it called when you project the ball back between 707 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: your legs. It's a reverse granny shot? Okay shot? But yes, 708 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: that's what's going on here if you want to picture it. 709 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: The mongoose, the banded mongoose here is it's like sort 710 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: of standing with its legs apart and then picking up 711 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,760 Speaker 1: the millipede with its four paws and then leaning over 712 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: and throwing the millipede backwards between its legs to smash 713 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: it against a rock behind it. And you included for 714 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: me a couple of wonderful illustrations to drive home how 715 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: this works. I think these illustrations are actually from the 716 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: original paper, but they were. They were included in that 717 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: blog post I referenced by Haslum. Yeah, they're quite amusing. 718 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: We were talking before the recording about the uh. In 719 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,280 Speaker 1: the first shot, we see this uh, this, this mangoo 720 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: is clearly thoughtful about its task, concentrating on what it's doing. 721 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: Millipede grasp between it's it's it's pause rock behind it, 722 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: and then in the next picture, bam, it has thrown 723 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: the millipede. The millipede is in flight back between the 724 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: creature's legs, and he's just kind of looking at us, 725 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: the viewers. This is occurring, Yeah, yeah, making a sort 726 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: of shameful eye contact with the illustrator. But but even this, this, 727 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 1: this illustration also drives home that like, this is a 728 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: creature that has like a tail um it's uh, it's 729 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: legs are not nearly as long as human legs, so 730 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: it seems like a very It's a precision shot. There's 731 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: nothing like clumsy about this. Well, I wonder why the 732 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: throwing happens behind the animal instead of in front of it. So, yeah, 733 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: would it has to get past the legs and the 734 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: tail to do this, But since the behavior has evolved 735 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: this way, there must be a an advantage to the 736 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: to the rear word throwing, right, Like maybe the animal 737 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: can get more momentum throwing in that direction than it 738 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 1: could throwing forward. I'm not sure. Well, what it reminds 739 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: me of is digging behavior um and uh and the 740 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 1: mongoose is certainly a creature that that I imagine is 741 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: going to dig around for things. You know, maybe in 742 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: not actual burrowing behavior perhaps, but we're talking about scratching 743 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: around in the dirt, going after say, milipede, small bugs, 744 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 1: et cetera. And you know what is the We can 745 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: sort of imagine the steps between basic digging throwing the 746 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: dirt back between your rear legs, and then launching small 747 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: creatures backwards as well and making them hit a rock 748 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: wall or something. M Yeah, okay, basic mongoose technology either way, 749 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: I guess. Well anyway, uh so, apparently for the banded 750 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,439 Speaker 1: mongoose picking up and throwing food is part of their 751 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: normal behavior. This wasn't just like a one off, weird 752 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 1: thing that happened in this zoo environment. It is something 753 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: that has been observed in the wild, and it's part 754 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: of a behavioral repertoire that may in fact be passed 755 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: on through a kind of teaching and observation between older 756 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: mongoosees and younger ones, rather than strictly through uh inborn instinct. Yeah, fascinating. Um. 757 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: I was looking around it for for various videos of this, 758 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: and I did find a number of videos showing them 759 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 1: with different encased foods that that do look more like 760 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: a striking as opposed to a throwing. But I guess 761 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,399 Speaker 1: one can imagine that these would be sort of related it, right, 762 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: especially if the striking If I'm remembering correctly from the 763 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: videos I was looking at, some of the strikings are 764 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: kind of the same initial movement instead of launching the 765 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: encased food back between the legs, though bringing it down 766 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 1: straight onto the ground or onto some sort of rocky surface. 767 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 1: Good job mongoose. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of the 768 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: dropping techniques that have been linked to other um organisms 769 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: that are capable of flight. You know, if you have 770 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: something like I think the you know cases where lamber 771 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: guy or may drop bones to shatter on rocks far below. 772 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: They're able to use a gravity assist on that act. 773 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: But if you're just a mongoose, well you don't have 774 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 1: gravity like that. You can't very well soar up into 775 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,479 Speaker 1: the sky and then drop it. You've got to hurl 776 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: it instead. Yeah. I also like that this In this case, 777 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,360 Speaker 1: the animal is throwing the object behind them, just like 778 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: Deucalion and Pira. Yeah, I think there's that's where the 779 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: comparison stops. Though I don't see how the millipede really 780 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: becomes the new generation mongooses. We just don't. We don't 781 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: have much insight into the religious lives of the mongoose. 782 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: It's true, all right, Well I think that does it 783 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: for part two, But hey, should we continue looking at 784 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,359 Speaker 1: animal throwing behaviors in in a part three? Maybe? Yeah? Maybe? So. 785 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,800 Speaker 1: I know, there's there's certainly a lot in the primate world, 786 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,720 Speaker 1: and we kind of skipped over that because on one hand, 787 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: primates throwing things. That's it's obviously on on top of 788 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: the various non human primate examples. We know that of course, 789 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: humans are are the greatest throwers on Earth. Um, but 790 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: they're that, but not to take away from the primate world. 791 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: They're the larger primate world though, because there are some 792 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: amazing examples of the use of projectiles and uh the 793 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: selection of projectiles and even the storing of projectiles for 794 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,799 Speaker 1: later use. So there's a lot of interesting stuff there 795 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: that we get into. We can also get into how 796 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 1: it plays into human evolution and so forth. So if 797 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: if listeners want more animals throwing stuff, we can certainly 798 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: put together some more episodes. Oh and by the way, 799 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to mention this, uh this earlier and I 800 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: forgot But John I. M. Kisler, who wrote the book 801 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,720 Speaker 1: on war Elephants, also wrote a historical fiction novel titled 802 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,919 Speaker 1: Elephant Lord, set during the Second Punic War. I looked 803 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: at this. I didn't pick it up yet, but I 804 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: saw that you can get it on kindle. It looks 805 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,799 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. M hm, I was. I was trying to ponder, like, 806 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: maybe this is a better way to get my to 807 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: scratch the itch of curiosity over over in all the 808 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: details of of elephant warfare, maybe if it's in a 809 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: within a fictional shape, it'll be kinder somehow, I don't know. Alright, alright, 810 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 1: so we're closing it up there, but yeah, right in, 811 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 1: let us know what you think. If you want to 812 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,360 Speaker 1: hear more episodes about animals throwing stuff, be sure to 813 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,840 Speaker 1: let us know. Perhaps you have examples from the animal 814 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 1: world that we didn't touch onthing like to bring up. 815 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,400 Speaker 1: Perhaps you just have observations of elephants or the mongoose 816 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: that you would like to share. It doesn't have to 817 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: be directed directly related to throwing things up, and maybe 818 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 1: you do have those experiences you would like to uh 819 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 1: to point out to us. If so, right in, we'd 820 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Just a reminder that Stuff 821 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,399 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind as a science podcast with core 822 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: episodes publishing on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to 823 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed. On Monday's we do listener mail, 824 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: on Wednesday's we do a short form monster fact or 825 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: artifact episode, and on Fridays we set aside most serious 826 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 1: concerns and just talk about a weird film on Weird 827 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 1: House Cinema. Huge thanks to our audio producer Max Williams. 828 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,399 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 829 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,400 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other. 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