1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,280 Speaker 1: I am so thrilled today to be joined on this 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: episode of The Warning by the one, the only, Katie Scorik, 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: who you can find at Katiecork dot com, the co 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: founder of Katiekork Media, and as of this weekend, you 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: are a grandmother. Congratulations Katie. 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 2: Thank you, Steve. 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 3: It's pretty thrilling, gosh, been waiting for quite a while 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 3: for this momentous occasion. And my daughter Ellie, who is 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 3: my oldest daughter, and her husband Mark had a little 10 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 3: baby boy on Saturday morning and right on time his 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 3: due date. And it's very moving because his name is 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 3: John Albert and he is named after Ellie's dad and 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 3: my late husband Jay, and he is going to be 14 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 3: called Jay in honor of him. So it was it 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 3: was a really moving and meaningful day obviously for all 16 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 3: of us in a new chapter for Ellie and her husband. 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 3: Really excited for them and excited for me that once 18 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 3: again I get to see the world unfold through a 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 3: child's size. 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: Well, good for you, and congratulations to you and your 21 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: entire family. 22 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 3: Thank you. 23 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: There's a lot happening in the world right now to 24 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: get thanks. All right, Well, you're one of the few 25 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: people in history history of broadcasting. Who has sat in 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: the network anchor chair really at the premiere shows, CBS 27 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: Evening News, the Today Show, of course on air during 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: the nine to eleven attack. In perpetuity, it's you in 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,639 Speaker 1: the nine to eleven Museum on the on the permanent loop, 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: broadcasting on one of the darkest days in the in 31 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: the history of the country. And so you spent many, 32 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: many years at NBC News. Journalistic ethics, standards, integrity were 33 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: all things when I interacted with the network early in 34 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: my career on the side of partisan politics for the 35 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: campaigns that I was representing. I I never had a 36 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: doubt about that. You have a former president that has 37 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: documentedly documented lies thirty five thirty six thousand over his 38 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: four years. You have the chairwoman of the Republican National 39 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: Committee who, at the end, really what she did and 40 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: did again yesterday in an interview she just won't acknowledge 41 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: actually the result of a presidential election, which is a 42 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: major circum stance in the society because our entire civilization, 43 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: such as it is, is utterly dependent on elections. It's 44 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: how we assign power in the culture, in the society. 45 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: And so there's obviously a revolt in the newsroom. The 46 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: NBC journalists are saying, in essence, we are NBC News, 47 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: not the management who made this transaction for access. Take 48 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: us inside what you think is happening with the journalists 49 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: at NBC News, with the executives, the culture of the network, 50 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: some of the names like Russer and Brokaw who still 51 00:03:54,600 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: loom large culturally in these places as totems of eaches 52 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: and probity and integrity. What's your reaction to everything that's 53 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: played out here over the last seventy two hours. 54 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 3: Well, I've been watching it, obviously from the outside, Steve, 55 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: reading your excellent essay about this and your substack, and 56 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 3: talking to a few friends, but not a lot of 57 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 3: insiders at MBC. You know, think I think about Tim honestly, 58 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 3: Tim Russert a lot, Steve, I've been thinking about him 59 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 3: a lot since twenty sixteen, and how he would handle 60 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 3: these situations. 61 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: And Tim was in a unique position of being. 62 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 3: Really respected by virtually everyone because he was so prepared 63 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: and so fair and usually to great effect, used people's 64 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 3: own rhetoric to challenge them in interview situations. I think 65 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 3: it is so difficult because well, Steve, you know, better 66 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 3: than anyone. The Republican Party has undergone such a dramatic transformation, 67 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: and Donald Trump, in you know particular, has really changed 68 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 3: the way we cover politics and to your point, changed 69 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: institutional norms to such a degree. My husband and I 70 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: were talking about it this morning. Will there ever be 71 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 3: a peaceful transfer of power? And will these institutions break 72 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 3: under the weight of this very new kind of and 73 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 3: disturbing political discourse? 74 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 2: So how do you cover policy. 75 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: Differences between Democrats and Republicans when, to your point, the 76 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: Republican Party has completely been co opted by Donald J. 77 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 3: Trump and other people who have full did like your 78 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 3: friend Lindsey Graham, and you know, the list goes on 79 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: and on, and the number of people who have rejected 80 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 3: this orthodoxy is so small. How do you cover politics? 81 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: How do you have policy discussions? How do I mean? 82 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 3: It is just such a mess. And I think the 83 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 3: hiring of Rana McDaniel as the former head of the 84 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 3: RNC and someone who has perpetuated so many of these untruths, 85 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 3: shows how difficult it is in this environment to have 86 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 3: the conversations that we used to have when I was 87 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: covering campaigns and when you were involved in campaigns, Steve 88 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 3: and I you have we've all seen there's a lot 89 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 3: of you know, there's kind of an uprising goal going 90 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 3: on at NBC News saying should we put this person 91 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 3: on our air who has been part of this campaign 92 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: of lies and a refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of 93 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 3: the twenty twenty election, who has been a mouthpiece for 94 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 3: that particular you know, for the current iteration of the GOP, 95 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 3: And how do we interrogate kind of what many Americans 96 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 3: feel about policy issues? So I guess I would turn 97 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 3: it over turn the question to you, Steve, And I 98 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: know this is your podcast, but I can't help but 99 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: asking you, given that the state of affairs, do you 100 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 3: completely you know, marginalize or ignore the people that in 101 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 3: the Republican Party as it currently exists, how do you 102 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 3: have these policy debates? 103 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that the choice between and I guess 104 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: arising fascism and a democratic system is really a policy debate. 105 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: So what I mean by that is, if you're talking 106 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: about mass deportation camps, which Trump is, if you're talking 107 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: about imprisoning journalists, which he is, imprisoning opposition, which he 108 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: is about vengeance and retribution. There's a question that has 109 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: to be post why is he saying these things? 110 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: Right? 111 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: Does he mean these things? And you have to evaluate 112 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: that in some type of context, And for me, that 113 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: is a historical context. And there is nobody that you 114 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: can think of in the last one hundred and fifty 115 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: years who took power preaching an autocratic gospel, who upon 116 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: achieving power, did not do exactly what they said they 117 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: were going to do. 118 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: But do you do, then, Steve, invite people Republicans to 119 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 3: the table and challenge those people with those kinds of questions. 120 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: Of course, yes, because there is a autocratic movement that 121 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: is oppositional to what we have understood as shared values 122 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: that go back at least eighty years. So but do 123 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: you make that person a colleague and set them next 124 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: to Lester Holt on the set of NBC News. 125 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: I agree with. 126 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: After they've after they've lied, uh thousands of times in 127 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: the service of a cause, that's been telling lies of 128 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: a nature that are that are that are deeply destructive. 129 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: The the lies at hand go to the functioning of 130 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: the society. Right, They're not self serving, It's not I 131 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: didn't have sexual relations with that woman, Right, These are 132 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: not white lies. These are not lies of puffery. These 133 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: are lies of authority that require a submission of agency. 134 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: And so I think that when she says, listen, you 135 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: know this we have to do. You're got to take 136 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: one for the team, right, it's it's shocked and obviously 137 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: blissfully unaware, right of the self awareness, right that's required 138 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: in that moment. Well, if you were willing to say 139 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: anything in that moment absent any principles or conviction, now 140 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: that you're being paid over here, we can expect what 141 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: from you precisely right. 142 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 3: Well, that was I think Chuck Todd's point on Meet 143 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: the Press, which I thought was a powerful rejection of 144 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 3: this hire. And I'm surprised that the management, the people 145 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: who were responsible for hiring her, didn't have conversations with 146 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 3: the journalists who were going to be, as you said, 147 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: sort of in the category of colleague. I think that 148 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: they should not have paid her a contributor fee. I mean, 149 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 3: they're paying her three hundred thousand dollars a year, which 150 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: could pay for a number of producers and people who 151 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: could help cover the election. And I don't quite understand 152 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 3: the thinking behind it. I think there were other people 153 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 3: who talked to her. I think ultimately CNN didn't offer 154 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 3: her a paid contributor salary. I'm not sure what happened 155 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: with ABC. Yeah, it's a very strange world, and I 156 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: agree with you too, but I do think it doesn't answer. 157 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 3: Let's set apart the salary and making her sort of 158 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: a journalistic colleague of people at NBC News, how do 159 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 3: you really have conversations to illuminate the inherent dangers of 160 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: a Trump presidency? And you know, how do we get 161 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: is it possible or maybe it isn't possible, Steve, to 162 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 3: get a conversation going about all the things that you 163 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: and many Americans are concerned about. 164 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: Well, I think that conversation takes place at a number 165 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: of different layers and a number of different levels in 166 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: the society. Sometimes it takes place in a sphere of lunacy, 167 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes it takes place in a sphere of seriousness. But 168 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: it's taking place on different stages than the places it 169 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: took place ten years ago, fifteen years ago. You have 170 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: to look harder for it, but it's all out there. 171 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: It's totality. And you know what I would say is 172 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: that what I thought was really striking to me on 173 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: the show on Sunday, and you mentioned Lindsey Graham, my 174 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: friend Lindsay and he was my friend Lindsay right. He 175 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: I traveled the country with him, the entire country. I 176 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: I I spent enormous amounts of time with Lindsey Graham 177 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: in a vocation that involves conviction, and I was working 178 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: for somebody who was a big personality. Both Bush and McCain, 179 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: people who had convictions right, they had they had beliefs. 180 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: Didn't mean they were right right, but they believed what 181 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: they what they said, they they believed. And to watch 182 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: the total abdication right of of Lindsay Graham. So yesterday, right, 183 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: you you've watched the whole of the Republican party buckle 184 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: run away from what everybody said we believe acts. Well, 185 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: Chuck Todd has his moment yesterday. I'm sitting there on 186 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: live television. It's been at NBC News for a long time. 187 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: Chuck Todd looks at his successor and he says, and 188 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: I think these words were big words, seismic words in 189 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: modern journalism. I think I think they're going to linger, right. 190 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: I think they're going to be remembered in a in 191 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: a in a much deeper context than I think they're 192 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: kind of being credited with. In this immediate aftermath, he 193 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: looks at the camera and he says, I think our 194 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: bosses owe you an apology, big moment. 195 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think his contract is up this summer, 196 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 3: so that'll be interesting to see what transpires as a result. 197 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: You've got a job for life. 198 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: I think I think we're witnessing the unraveling of the 199 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 3: continued unraveling of you know, traditional media and what it 200 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 3: stands for. And you know, I am very happy that 201 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 3: I am not running NBC News, But I guess the 202 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 3: question is, is there any way to have these conversations 203 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 3: on larger platforms. You know, it is so fragmented now, 204 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: and people are getting information from everywhere. Most people under 205 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 3: fifty are not watching linear television. 206 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: And you know, I think. 207 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 3: Mainstream media has lost its grip on the national consciousness. 208 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 3: And and you know, for all the bemoaning of what 209 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 3: it used to be like and the gatekeepers, etc. And 210 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: the fact that social media has allowed for the democratization 211 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 3: of news and information and given entree to people who 212 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 3: were previously kept out of the conversation, you know, there 213 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 3: were advantages to having fewer outlets with certain values and 214 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 3: certain practices of sourcing and trying to get the right information. 215 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 3: And of course now it is all commentary, and it 216 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 3: has been for a while in prime time on cable 217 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 3: networks for the most part, and it has just changed 218 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: so much from when I was anchoring both the Today 219 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 3: Show and later the CBS Evening News, when I was 220 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 3: never giving my opinion, rarely giving my opinion unless I 221 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 3: saw something was so morally repugnant. For example, when I 222 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 3: interviewed David Duke and came back with him with his racist, 223 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: anti Semitic, anti Asian comments and asked him for to explain. 224 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: But in general it was. 225 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 3: It was pretty down the middle, with challenging questions for 226 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 3: both sides. And now it's just a very different ballgame, 227 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: and it's really become more talk radio on television. 228 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: Do you think, though, when you talk about the danger, 229 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: like one of the things I observe is so rarely 230 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: is there a penetrating question right of the type that 231 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: you might use to ask right that was set up 232 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: in that you had anticipated that you may have to 233 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: ask three follow up questions. So I don't think anybody, 234 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: and maybe I'm wrong on this but I think I'm right. 235 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything that would qualify as a 236 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: substance of conversation where someone's sitting sitting down in front 237 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: of Trump, it's saying, I need to ask you a 238 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: question about punishing dissent in the United States. You've set 239 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: over and over again, we counted it up, mister president. Right, 240 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: you've said on seventy two occasions. Right, you know, some 241 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: version of the following. Let me read this quote to you. 242 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? Would you like the 243 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: power to lock up an opponent? Do you want the 244 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: power to set the irslues? Would you like to able 245 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: to kill someone? 246 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 3: I guess the question is would he really be responsive 247 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 3: to those or would he roll over who's ever asking 248 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 3: him those questions, dismissed that he had ever said it, 249 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 3: and then proceed to talk over them, and you know, 250 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 3: basically suck all the oxygen out of the room. I 251 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 3: think when Kristen Welker had an opportunity to interview him, 252 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 3: I wish NBC because it was on tape, it wasn't live. 253 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 3: Had obviously pressed him again and again on questions, but 254 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 3: when he refused to answer them or change the subject, 255 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 3: I would have injected kind of a videotape thing within 256 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 3: the interview to say, just so you know, this is incorrect. 257 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 3: These statements that he'd made X, Y, and Z are false. 258 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 3: This is blah blah blah, because I think going to 259 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 3: the website to get a fact check on everything that 260 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 3: Donald Trump was saying in that interview is just it's 261 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 3: not going to cut it. 262 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: So I agree. 263 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 3: The question is people have tried and would he really respond, 264 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 3: And I don't think it's for lack of trying. I mean, 265 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 3: I would love to have a serious conversation with him, 266 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 3: but I don't think he would ever do it. And 267 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 3: I think that you know, when I interviewed Governor Palin 268 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 3: when you were doing the McCain campaign, I asked legitimate 269 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 3: questions that even Republicans thought were fair. I think now 270 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 3: there yeah, and there was now so much vifurcation in 271 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 3: the media. I don't think people would even I guess 272 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 3: undecided voters might write, but I think people are so 273 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 3: you know, fixed in the positions. I'm not sure people 274 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 3: would listen with an open mind to what he said, 275 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 3: or they would immediately attack the reporter. You know, I 276 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 3: just don't the whole media ecosystem is so strange right now, 277 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 3: it's hard to almost have an illuminating conversation with a 278 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 3: candidate because everyone's you know, the fixes in well. 279 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: I saw there was a there was a Christine example 280 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: of this, and it was Anderson Cooper on CNN introducing 281 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: a story package about an extremist Maga Republican who won 282 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: the nomination to be the school superintendent for the state. 283 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: And apparently it's discovered pretty quickly on Twitter. She has 284 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: called for the assassination of the Clintons, Barack Obama, and 285 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: one hundred other crazy things and so full stop, she's crazy, 286 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: she's unfit. But is that a national news story? Is 287 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: that a national crisis? Per your question? Earlier would I 288 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: would say no, it's not. It's a big problem for 289 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: the state of North Carolina. Now, if there's a town 290 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: in North Carolina that alects a school board and that 291 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 1: school board decides to burn all the books in the library, 292 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: is that a national emergency. It's not a national emergency. 293 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: It's an emergency in that community that the whole nation 294 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: should be supportive of people that want to get rid 295 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: of that school board. But at any rate, we send 296 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: a reporter down to try to talk to the candidate 297 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: after a candidate event, ambush her in the parking lot. Now, 298 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: the fact that she set all these comments about Nazis 299 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 1: are good and violence is great, and so on and 300 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: so forth. I don't know how, but within forty five 301 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: seconds the reporter from CNN is in a parking lot 302 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: argument where they're yelling at each other and the reporter 303 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: is demanding she apologized for the use of quote hurtful 304 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: end quote words towards the transgender community and whatever that is, 305 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: whatever that confrontation is, that does not resemble journalism. To me, 306 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: that resembles we have a position, we have cameras, we're 307 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: going to go assert our position, and a confrontation with 308 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: this person, who, don't get me wrong, I think is certifiable. 309 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: But there's a reason right that that you know who 310 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: Nancy Mace is all over the country, but you have 311 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: no idea who Abigail span Burger is. Right in Virginia 312 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: and in a functioning media and a functioning politics, the 313 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: country knows who Abigail span Burger is. It has no 314 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: idea who Nancy Mace is. But that's I might argue. 315 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 3: I might argue with your assertion that that's not a 316 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: national story, okay, I mean I think through that well. 317 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 3: I think that if an elected official is calling for 318 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 3: the assassination of another elected official, someone who is saying, 319 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 3: you know, praising Nazis and a whole litany of things 320 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: that you outlined, I think it might be a very 321 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 3: scary and important and story to highlight. Because movements start 322 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 3: in small towns, and I think that people need to 323 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 3: be aware of what is happening in North Carolina, even 324 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 3: if at the school board has nothing to do with them. 325 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 3: I think it is a national story. I'm not saying 326 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,239 Speaker 3: the approach was correct, but I think trying to do 327 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 3: an interview, trying to I mean tim would certainly highlight 328 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 3: the things that this particular person had said in the 329 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: past and would talk about and probably find out nationally 330 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 3: if this was happening in other communities and find out why. 331 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: So. 332 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 3: I don't think a reporter should get in a fight 333 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 3: in a parking lot and demand an apology, but certainly 334 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 3: highlighting this kind of dangerous rhetoric, I mean, and making 335 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 3: people aware of it is is a smart thing to do. 336 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: Now, let me say unambiguously that the gubernatorial domine who 337 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: is a Holocaust denier. I do think he is a 338 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: national story because he's an election away from being one 339 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: of the state's fifty fifty governors. My larger point is 340 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: the scale of the lunisphere such as it is in 341 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: American life, the mainstreaming of the extremism, the fact that 342 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: Victor Orbon is speaking to the Heritage Foundation and advocating 343 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: for the demise of American democracy, which you know, at 344 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: one time would have been the lead right of Tim Show, 345 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: would have been the lead of the nightly news. Right 346 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: that European autocratic ex leader has come here and has 347 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: done what not just interfering in our sovereignty, in our politics. 348 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: But it is flat, not a peep and so. 349 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: But didn't that get attention in the national news? 350 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: It got? It got attention? Did it get scale? Right? 351 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: Did it? Did it? Did it did it obtain did 352 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: it attain some mention? Did it slowed down the conversation? 353 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: Did it did it permeate? I don't think it did. 354 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you a question, Steve again, apologies, 355 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 3: but why are so many people in the current GOP 356 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 3: unbothered by the direction of the party, or even more so, 357 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 3: embracing this evolution of its ideology and why are they 358 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 3: not more concerned. 359 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: Well, look, I predicted the violence in September of twenty twenty. 360 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: I said, exactly what would happen when Donald Trump denied 361 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: the result of an election denied? 362 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 3: And Bill Maher said, I remember Bill Mars said, he's 363 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 3: not going to leave the White House of. 364 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: A result it was And I posed a question when 365 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: I predicted it, and the question was, who will cross 366 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: the roof of con with him? There's no there's no 367 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: detour around this the country. And I don't I don't 368 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: mean to be dramatic, but I have a lot of 369 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: passion for this right and it's and it's the country 370 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: right ruptured history. It got rid of the kings and 371 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: the emperors, it got rid of the state religion. It's 372 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: one of the great inventions in the history of the country. 373 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: The greatest is the peaceful transition of power. The idea 374 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: that the citizen can choose and grant power that is 375 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: limited under a rule of law that applies to everybody 376 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: for a period of time before the voter validates or 377 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: removes them from power is the great step forward in 378 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: the history of human civilization. The idea and ideal that 379 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: underpinned it has lit the world. We're almost at our 380 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty year point, and we're in a 381 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: very very fragile space because what powers this is faith 382 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: and belief in it. And the Republican Party is not 383 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: in the state of becoming anymore. It has been in 384 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: a state of being for some time. 385 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: What do you think of that? 386 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: What it is, what it has been now for many years. 387 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: It is a political party, the third oldest in the world, 388 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: that is now the container for a malevolence that has 389 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: always existed in American life from the beginning when when 390 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: the Washington Monument was commissioned, the Pope made a donation 391 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: of Catholic marble. It's very important to remember there were 392 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: there were no Catholics in America right like zero at 393 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: the time of the American Revolution, and so Catholic marble 394 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: was was was a was a frightening proposition the Irish. 395 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: The marble was thrown into the Potomac River, and and 396 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: and the Washington Monument was stopped for twenty years. We 397 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: had a we had an insurgency after the Civil War 398 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: where Grant thrushed the ku Klux Klan in the eighteen seventies, 399 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: it's where the Justice Department came from to fight it. 400 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: And he came back to life in the nineteen twenties, 401 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: and he made another stand in the nineteen sixties. And 402 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: there's a great backlash after the first black president to 403 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: the United States. And what's always the case is that 404 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: the autocratic side at the beginning of any contestation with 405 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: democratic values always has more energy, right. The democratic side 406 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: is always more slowly to awaken, for the simple reason 407 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: that most of the people who care the most about 408 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: democracy have a lot of other things todaily. 409 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 2: But still you haven't. 410 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 3: I mean, I understand historically these trends and progress and 411 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 3: then backlash, and progress and backlash, But. 412 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 2: I don't quite understand. 413 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 3: I understand that people like Lindsay Graham have this craven 414 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 3: addiction to power, and they see that they don't want 415 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: to be out primary and they see the path to 416 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 3: maintaining power is on Donald Trump's coattails. And I'd love 417 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: to talk to you about John McCain in the second 418 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 3: But rank and file Republican voters, I don't quite understand 419 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 3: why they don't see more of a threat to democracy. 420 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 3: Is it too intangible, is it too hypothetical? Is it 421 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: because of their media diet and the ecosystem and echo 422 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,239 Speaker 3: chambers they've created for themselves. That to me is what 423 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 3: is really frustrating. And how can how can these people 424 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 3: be reached? Are they persuadable? Are they there to understand 425 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 3: some of the threats that we're seeing and will continue 426 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 3: to see. 427 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: Well, right, so let's see, let's do some just like 428 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: top line math on this. So Trump and Biden are 429 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: the presumptive nominees. It's done. I think as we sit 430 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: here today, roughly there's thirteen million people that participated in 431 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: the primaries, three hundred thirty million live in the country. 432 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: Is about thirty eight million Republicans in total. About thirty 433 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: thirty five percent of them seem to be right holders 434 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: of the proposition that Trump forever no matter what, a 435 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: lot of ambivalence beyond that, forty percent of the country 436 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: doesn't have four hundred dollars cash available for an emergency. 437 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: The border appears to be in chaos. There's a lot 438 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: of economic indicators in polling that would suggest over the 439 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 1: last eighty years that the only economic issue that really 440 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: matters is the correlation between wages and prices. You have 441 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: a lot of parents whose politics got scrambled during COVID. 442 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: At a at a school level, you have a lot 443 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: of parents on gender issues and schools a lot of 444 00:35:52,360 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: culture war issues that create a very very complicated So. 445 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 2: No, I totally see that. 446 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 3: But ostensibly every you know, and and I understand that, 447 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 3: and you look at income in equality, Steve, and we 448 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 3: got a lot of pushback when we said there were 449 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 3: very there were some positive positive economic news when you 450 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 3: and I spoke not too long ago, a lot of 451 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 3: people rejected that out of hand and said, are you crazy? 452 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 3: Because I think you're right the wages and the cost 453 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 3: of goods, and you know, people like us, we're not 454 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 3: struggling in a way that many many families are. Having 455 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 3: said that, is it impossible to kind of see the 456 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 3: larger threat that's looming when your world, when you are 457 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 3: struggling and in terms of sort of your own particular 458 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 3: circumstances is and I get that whole mix, and I 459 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 3: think you are spot on when you talk about the 460 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 3: ingredients for disillusionment and even despair are very much there. 461 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 3: But is the answer, I guess you know, I'm reading 462 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 3: Frank Brune's book The Age of Grievance. You should have 463 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 3: Frank on your podcast too, actually, or on your channel. 464 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 3: Is there any understanding about the big picture and what 465 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 3: Donald Trump may represent to our democratic institutions. 466 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: So there was a story that I think is of 467 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: profound importance in understanding this moment in America and the 468 00:37:53,560 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: emptiness of the word democracy as an assertion. Twenty seven 469 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: year old black woman in Ohio has vaginal bleeding twenty 470 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: five weeks four days, goes to the emergency room, which 471 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: triggers not a doctor but an ethics committee here inconvening 472 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: because of the twenty six week law. She gave it 473 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: the old college try for eight hours and left, came 474 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: back day two and left, never saw a doctor. Day three, miscarries, 475 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 1: puts the remains into the toilet and calls the ambulance, 476 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: and she is charged with desecration of a corpse. Prosecutor 477 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 1: later drops the charges. Does she live in a democracy? 478 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: She doesn't live in a democracy. There's lots of Americans 479 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: who don't live in a democracy. At a practical level, 480 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: expanding and bringing democracy to them and being able to 481 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: communicate it is of the utmost importance. You have to 482 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: You have to be able to do that. You wanna 483 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: you want to play quarterback in the Super Bowl, you 484 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: must be able to pass the football. You must be 485 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: able to communicate. And so when we talk about Trump, 486 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:36,439 Speaker 1: there's something about Trump that that overlays with adult life, 487 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: and it's the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts in 488 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: your head at the same time. Trump is overwhelmingly the 489 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: most prolific liar in the history of the country. He's 490 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: also the most honest president we've ever had. There is 491 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: no side to Donald Trump, there is no hidden Trump. 492 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,439 Speaker 1: He is precise and exactly what he appears to be. 493 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: He is utterly transparent, and people respond in a time 494 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: of confusion and disruption towards the simplicity, towards the grievance, 495 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,439 Speaker 1: towards the blame gaming. And a lot of people sit 496 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: and they say, well, Trump, I don't like, but he's 497 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: basically harmless to me. He hates those people, and I 498 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: think a lot of those people aren't really harmless to me. 499 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: So the tribalism flows back and forth. And when you 500 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: have vast spots of the country who evaluate their politics 501 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 1: through a prism of what size, what side poses the 502 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: biggest threat to me, you're in trouble. As a society. Now, 503 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: the remedy to that is somebody who can articulate a 504 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: message about the future. James Carville says this all the time. 505 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: He just said it in a in a in an article, 506 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, in an essay, in an interview. But it's true. 507 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: There's there's never been a presidential election in my lifetime 508 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: where no one talks about the future in it. No 509 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: one talks about the future whatsoever. It's as if it's 510 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: a forbidden subject. And and so what what excites people? Right? 511 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: The idealism of all of this that comes together is 512 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: always is always vested into the future, and and it's 513 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,320 Speaker 1: just it's just missing. So like, how do you defeat Trump? 514 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: You have to offer better, better, and better. Doesn't mean 515 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: I gave you all these things. Because the American people 516 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: look at this and they're like, well, isn't that why 517 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: we elected you in the first place. He said you'd 518 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: do a B and say great for you. You did 519 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,879 Speaker 1: a B and C. It's why we get you get 520 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: to live in the White House, got to play and 521 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: got the helicopter and they played the song when you 522 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 1: come in the run, that's the deal. 523 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 2: Why, Well, I have another question for you. 524 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 3: I've been thinking a lot lately about John McCain. You know, 525 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 3: I was remembering when he was giving that speech and 526 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 3: someone was heckling and saying things about Barack Obama when 527 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 3: he was running, and basically, I know you remember this moment. 528 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 3: I'm not even you probably were there, Steve, where someone 529 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 3: was yelling something about being a Muslim and Barack Obama 530 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 3: and John McCain stopped and he said, don't do that. 531 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 3: Something along these lines. You might even be able to 532 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 3: quote him. We have our policy differences. He's a good 533 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 3: American and please don't don't don't don't say that, Please 534 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 3: don't do that. 535 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 2: He's an error. 536 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: He is not no no man, no man. 537 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 3: He's a He's a He's a decent family man, citizen 538 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 3: that I just happened to have disagreements with on on 539 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 3: fundamental issues. 540 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 2: And that's what this campaign is all about. 541 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 1: He's not. 542 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 2: Thank you. 543 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: Well. 544 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 3: I think about my dad and my mom actually too, 545 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 3: I think about so many people who are no longer 546 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 3: with us, and wonder, tim, as I said, and wonder 547 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 3: what would they say about this? Would John McCain, how 548 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 3: would he fix this? H what would he do? 549 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: Well? You know, John, John McCain left a farewell letter 550 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: to the country. And you know that is that is 551 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: the last words, the last goidance we will ever have 552 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: from John McCain, And everything you need to know about 553 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,279 Speaker 1: how to move through this period as an American is 554 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: contained in that in that letter. You know, John, John 555 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 1: McCain UH was was somebody who deeply, deeply believed in 556 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: being an American. And one of the things that is 557 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: most extraordinary about his life, that is one of the 558 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: least known aspects of it, is that John was the 559 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 1: chaplain among the POWs in captivity and and later uh 560 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: And this is true about Vietnam. It's it's one of 561 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: the youngest countries in the world. The first generation of 562 00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: Vietnamese who had been born in peace in a thousand 563 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,760 Speaker 1: in years or the generation that were born after nineteen 564 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:12,399 Speaker 1: eighty and John McCain, along with John Kerry and Pete Peterson, 565 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: who was a Republican congressman in a pow and carrying 566 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: Clinton and McCain and Pete Peterson made peace. He made 567 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: peace and reconciled with the people that tortured him in 568 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: a in a long and bitter war. And if you 569 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: go to Vietnam today, you will find a thriving country 570 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:49,400 Speaker 1: that revers John McCain. And what McCain stood for was 571 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:54,239 Speaker 1: a belief in the project that that Americans going back 572 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: to the Revolution called the cause. He believed deeply in 573 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,879 Speaker 1: that in that cause. And he would be so offended, 574 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: so deeply affronted by the cowardice and the thing that 575 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: really fired McCain up. He was an Irish guy, right, 576 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: And there's an old saying, right, you know, he's a 577 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: private fighter. Can anyone joined John John McCain genuinely loved 578 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: to fight. He loved to fight, He loved it, He 579 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: loved it, and he loved a good fight. It was 580 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: one of the last things he said. We had a 581 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: We had an incredibly as you know, right that the 582 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: McCain team was was a was a Piranha tank, right, 583 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,919 Speaker 1: I mean like legendary in fighting. But but the one 584 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: thing that McCain that there were no there's and even today, 585 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,439 Speaker 1: except for Lindsay Graham, there's no McCain guys who got 586 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: on board with any of this bullshit that top ones anyway, right, 587 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: despite all the differences, and McCain's last words to write, 588 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,400 Speaker 1: everybody walking said get good fights for the rest of 589 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: your life and McCain in that moment, what was happening 590 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 1: was this, we were starting to hear the N word 591 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 1: when he said, Barack Obama's a name and a rally, 592 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: and it was shocking. In two thousand and eight, it 593 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,279 Speaker 1: was like hearing a gunshot. It was. It was like 594 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: standing there with my friend Mark Salter and he said 595 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:43,359 Speaker 1: the word Barack Obama and you heard n looked at 596 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,959 Speaker 1: him and went to the next stop, and you heard 597 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,839 Speaker 1: it again, and reporters heard it. I think we were 598 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: shown some grace that we weren't indicted as a team. 599 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: We were horrified by it, but we went We had 600 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 1: this conversation with McCain and the race it was functionally 601 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 1: over once you had the economy really blow up on 602 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: September fifteenth. But we went to him and we said, 603 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: every time you say the senator's name, here in the 604 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 1: N word, which means we can't say his name. Functionally, 605 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,399 Speaker 1: you can't run a presidential campaign if you can't say 606 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: your opponent's name. And really we made a concession in 607 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: that moment a couple of us that this was over, 608 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: that Obama would be president. We knew that, but we 609 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: absolutely were not going to do anything that incited that 610 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:54,520 Speaker 1: word being heard being said at a moment of profound progress, 611 00:48:55,120 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: of glory really that was upon the country. And so 612 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:06,040 Speaker 1: that conversation took place about an hour before that event. 613 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 1: And it was an angry woman who is an archetype 614 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: really of our COVID era where everyone had that phones, 615 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,839 Speaker 1: and she took the microphone and said, Obama is a 616 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: Muslim and he's Emma. Kain just reached out and he said, no, ma'am, no, ma'am. 617 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: Barack Obama is a good man. He's my opponent. We 618 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: just disagree on some things. And that world is gone 619 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:44,880 Speaker 1: now because there is no compromise possible with a fascist. 620 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: There is no place to meet in the middle with 621 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: the election denier and the person who wants to create 622 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,280 Speaker 1: massed attention camps and deportation camps. 623 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 3: So what would John McCain do today? What would he 624 00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:58,880 Speaker 3: say today? 625 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: No? No, he would he would stand on line and 626 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: say no, never enough. 627 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,920 Speaker 2: And you say to Lindsey Graham, Steve. 628 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:20,560 Speaker 1: Shame, shame, shame on you. And and Lindsey Graham h 629 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: EGO would never have permitted that shaming. So if McCain 630 00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 1: were alive, Lindsey would be in line. 631 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 3: And do you think that John McCain could convince enough 632 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 3: fair minded Republicans who understood, you know, the Liz Cheney's 633 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,799 Speaker 3: of the world, the Adam Kinsingers of the world, that 634 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 3: there's a number of other Republicans, not many the Mitt 635 00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,680 Speaker 3: Romneys of the world. Do you think he could keep 636 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,600 Speaker 3: what was formerly the Republican Party intact? 637 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: I don't think that John McCain would have been the 638 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: organizing figure, the savior of this moment, but at the 639 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 1: beginning of it, right, and it's nine years on now, right, 640 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 1: But going back nine years, you know, before before John 641 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 1: got sick, I think very much that his defiance, his 642 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 1: fighting spirit would have dissuaded people, particularly the men, the 643 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:53,480 Speaker 1: men right, the Josh Hawleys, right, the Ted Cruises. The 644 00:51:53,600 --> 00:52:00,120 Speaker 1: cravenness is so deep, the cowardice so immense, and I 645 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,480 Speaker 1: don't think anyone would want to have been called a 646 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:08,400 Speaker 1: coward by John McCain. And McCain was always restrained in 647 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,799 Speaker 1: the use of his heroism. He would he would never 648 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: indict someone as a coward, but I think he would 649 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: have in these circumstances, and I think it would have 650 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,880 Speaker 1: had an enormous deterrent effect in moments when it was 651 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:30,600 Speaker 1: badly needed that are long passed. But if he came 652 00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:40,560 Speaker 1: back tomorrow and surveyed where we stand, he would be 653 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 1: astonished that these two were running together and real in 654 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,520 Speaker 1: a in a rematch at their ages. He'd be astonished 655 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: by it. He would be deeply upset by the condition 656 00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 1: of the country, and he would he would be a 657 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 1: gast at the lion. He would be a gast at it. 658 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:14,640 Speaker 1: And when and when Ronald McDaniel said what she said yesterday, 659 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:19,480 Speaker 1: I was on the team. I think John McCain might 660 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,440 Speaker 1: have had an aneurysm, which is probably a good place 661 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: to leave it. 662 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,320 Speaker 3: There's so much I I love talking to you, Steve, 663 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:35,960 Speaker 3: and you know tomorrow RFK Junior is going to announce 664 00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:40,839 Speaker 3: his running mate. Does he hurt Joe Biden, Moore or 665 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 3: Donald Trump more? 666 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:49,920 Speaker 1: He probably hurts Donald Trump more, but who knows. He 667 00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:57,959 Speaker 1: is a He is a chaos agent, a A Why 668 00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:59,800 Speaker 1: does he hurt Trump gamble. 669 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 2: Anti his anti vaccine stance. 670 00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:10,560 Speaker 1: Because he will draw from the aggrieved and from the 671 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:18,360 Speaker 1: conspiracy minded, and he will I think pull from those 672 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:24,280 Speaker 1: anti establishment sides. I think the challenge that Joe Biden 673 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 1: has is not a lot different than what Harry Truman 674 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,720 Speaker 1: had in nineteen forty eight. Harry Truman had to run 675 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:37,360 Speaker 1: in a race where there were three Democrats against one Republican. 676 00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:43,360 Speaker 1: He had a segregationist strom Thurmond in the race. He 677 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,799 Speaker 1: had a left Democrat Henry Wallace in the race, and 678 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,840 Speaker 1: he had Thomas Dewey. And so whether it's Cornell West, 679 00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,960 Speaker 1: whether it's Robert Kennedy, people that have come out of 680 00:54:55,080 --> 00:55:00,040 Speaker 1: Democratic constituencies historically, out of the Democratic Party, and the 681 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,319 Speaker 1: President is just going to have to navigate that. It's 682 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,920 Speaker 1: the contest. Is the way is the way that it 683 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:14,560 Speaker 1: is the reality of this race is people are told 684 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,719 Speaker 1: all the time the country doesn't agree on anything. It's 685 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,120 Speaker 1: evenly divided. Eighty percent of the country doesn't want this rematch. 686 00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,640 Speaker 1: They don't want it. No one wants this nobody. In fact, 687 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:34,040 Speaker 1: the thing that James Carville is most correct about, most 688 00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:39,239 Speaker 1: upset about, is this reality that no one wants to 689 00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:45,320 Speaker 1: talk about. When you do focus groups and you tell 690 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:52,160 Speaker 1: people that Biden is running for reelection, including the people 691 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 1: who voted for Biden last time, they don't believe it's trip. 692 00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,839 Speaker 2: Steve, what do you mean they don't believe it that's 693 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:00,480 Speaker 2: and they. 694 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:06,920 Speaker 1: Say they don't believe people normal people who are not 695 00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,320 Speaker 1: focused on this all day every day, glued to their TV. 696 00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,600 Speaker 1: They don't believe that the president who is going to 697 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: be eighty two is actually going to be on the ballot. 698 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 1: They don't accept it when you go and do focus groups, right, 699 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,200 Speaker 1: there are even people who have described what they say 700 00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,640 Speaker 1: is a Biden wave. Right, is that when you bring 701 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:34,479 Speaker 1: the subject up and you tell people, no, he will 702 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:40,120 Speaker 1: be on the ballot. Some focus group leaders have described 703 00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,880 Speaker 1: a phenomenon what they calls the Biden wave, which looks 704 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:47,200 Speaker 1: like this. When people go he won't, they flick the wrists, No, 705 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,759 Speaker 1: he won't. Right, he's not. And so right, when you 706 00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,040 Speaker 1: do focus groups and you encounter people, you know, I 707 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,960 Speaker 1: mean you encounter the American people when you do focus groups, 708 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,560 Speaker 1: I mean I had people talk of about humans and 709 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 1: dinosaurs living together, all manner of strange stuff, but never 710 00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,440 Speaker 1: encounter situation you're hearing about where people are just like no, 711 00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,279 Speaker 1: I mean, there's just no way, right, this can't be 712 00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,840 Speaker 1: the choice. But it is the choice. And so is 713 00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,680 Speaker 1: that is that goes? Is that is that matures as 714 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,400 Speaker 1: that becomes clearer as we as we move further down 715 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,440 Speaker 1: the summer, right, we'll we'll have more We'll have some 716 00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 1: more turbulence on that. And the other thing is as 717 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:35,600 Speaker 1: we move into a convention season, the Chicago is a 718 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:39,440 Speaker 1: tough city, right for Democrats. And you talk about this. 719 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,800 Speaker 1: If I was, if I was sitting around the table 720 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,280 Speaker 1: right in the campaign, you're talking about, where do you 721 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,920 Speaker 1: cite the national Convention? I'm not I'm not a person 722 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,680 Speaker 1: who's you said, you say, well, really, I'm sure we 723 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,720 Speaker 1: want to do this right five years in advance? Right, 724 00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,200 Speaker 1: what if what if something happens in the world, Right, 725 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, is this is this the place that that 726 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,720 Speaker 1: that we want to be? And so they have a 727 00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:13,800 Speaker 1: difficult city from a protest element, uh, with a with 728 00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,000 Speaker 1: a fracture on the left wing and the Democratic Party. 729 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:19,439 Speaker 1: There's going to be a lot of chaos. The will 730 00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:23,000 Speaker 1: be a lot of polls right over the course of 731 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,600 Speaker 1: of May and April. So it should be a very 732 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:31,440 Speaker 1: bumpy season because this race tomorrow. If you were if 733 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,920 Speaker 1: we were to vote tomorrow, right, I'd rather be Trump 734 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,440 Speaker 1: going into election night, if it were tomorrow, then I 735 00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,000 Speaker 1: would be Then I would be then I would be Biden. 736 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:44,840 Speaker 1: And believe me when I tell you, and I think 737 00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,720 Speaker 1: you know this right. I do not want to say 738 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 1: that out loud, right, but that's but that's how I 739 00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,000 Speaker 1: see it right now. And it worries me a lot. 740 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,400 Speaker 3: And we talked about this before when we had a conversation, 741 00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:57,920 Speaker 3: and I know we have to go and I have 742 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 3: to go, and you have to go. But you know, 743 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,320 Speaker 3: with no counter argument, no vision for the future, no 744 00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:10,520 Speaker 3: bully pulpit really being properly utilized by the Biden administration, 745 00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:21,680 Speaker 3: no interviews, no Super Bowl interview. I wish and hope 746 00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:27,560 Speaker 3: that President Biden will get out there and talk more. 747 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:33,200 Speaker 3: And the less he does, the higher the stakes. And 748 00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:36,680 Speaker 3: I know that some people have suggested he just you know, 749 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,439 Speaker 3: no debate. I mean, it's just I just don't think 750 00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:45,560 Speaker 3: it helps him. And I'd like to have a conversation 751 00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:50,120 Speaker 3: with him about a whole variety of issues, but I 752 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:56,680 Speaker 3: think there's trepidation on the part of the campaign team 753 00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,800 Speaker 3: to have him engage in these conversations, which I think 754 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:05,640 Speaker 3: is only detrimental to his candidacy. 755 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:11,520 Speaker 1: You said the key thing here, and it is a 756 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:20,200 Speaker 1: basic economic principle. The more they make his access rare, 757 01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:30,160 Speaker 1: the higher the stakes. At each moment of access, and 758 01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:37,560 Speaker 1: so it is killing the president's ability to communicate. And 759 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:43,720 Speaker 1: so the strategy is deeply, deeply flawed on this. They 760 01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,560 Speaker 1: should sit down with you, They should sit down with 761 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:51,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people. But in the end, this is 762 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,600 Speaker 1: a communications business. There's there's no one, there's no way 763 01:00:55,880 --> 01:01:04,200 Speaker 1: around it. This is and and particular early uh because 764 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:09,080 Speaker 1: of Biden's age, because Robert Kennedy is on the ballot. 765 01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 1: John Kennedy matters in this election. This was the centrifugal figure, 766 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:29,360 Speaker 1: right of this generation's inspiration, the two brothers and the 767 01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:35,680 Speaker 1: ability to communicate, the passing of the torch from one 768 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,320 Speaker 1: generation to another. You look at Bill Clinton, you look 769 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:49,520 Speaker 1: at Barack Obama. Democratic presidents historically have been great communicators 770 01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:51,959 Speaker 1: in times of crisis. And so this is a big 771 01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,520 Speaker 1: deficit in the in the election. And we'll have to watch, 772 01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, in the months ahead, how they do the 773 01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:01,680 Speaker 1: workaround on it, if there is a workaround. 774 01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,080 Speaker 3: On it, or if they will do a workaround, or 775 01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:09,040 Speaker 3: they'll acknowledge that a presidential a sitting president and a 776 01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:13,080 Speaker 3: candidate for reelection needs to make his case to the 777 01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:19,800 Speaker 3: American people and not necessarily two friendly podcasters. 778 01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:23,120 Speaker 1: Nope, and it's a perfect place to leave it. The one, 779 01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:27,480 Speaker 1: the only, the incomparable Katie Clerk, thank you very much. 780 01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:31,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to my political commentary. If you 781 01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:35,960 Speaker 1: like what you heard today, please also consider subscribing to 782 01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:39,280 Speaker 1: The Warning Daily newsletter on substack.