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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: So we have some very worrying indications of a potentially

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Speaker 1: massive escalation in Israel's war against Lebanon. But before we

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Speaker 1: get to that, we also have some really striking video

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Speaker 1: of Israel, for some reason, using a flaming medieval tree baschet.

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Speaker 1: True betray bachet? Is that how you say it's our chet?

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Speaker 1: For Trevishe It's like that. You'll see it in just

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Speaker 1: a second. But for those who are just listening, it's

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Speaker 1: like the catapult thing with like a flaming ball that

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Speaker 1: you might associate with some you know, Monty Python movie,

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Speaker 1: or like Vikings trying to storm a castle hundreds of

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Speaker 1: years ago.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a look at this.

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Speaker 5: We see several Israeli soldiers hurling a flaming projectile over

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Speaker 5: a concrete wall using the trebuchet, the type of wooden

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Speaker 5: catapult used in the Middle Ages and even before that.

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Speaker 5: What makes this unusual is that Israel takes pride in

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Speaker 5: being a high tech nation. The Israeli military told us

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Speaker 5: that the use of the trebuchet was an isolated incident

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Speaker 5: aimed at clearing a thicket where his Bellah militants could

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Speaker 5: hide near the border. But Israeli reserves we spoke to,

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Speaker 5: told us that they saw it being used earlier in

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Speaker 5: the war.

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Speaker 1: All right, Zager, what can you tell us about the

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Speaker 1: history of this weapon and why Israel might be using

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Speaker 1: it now when, as this narrator points out, they have

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Speaker 1: a lot of high tech weaponry.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, Tony, you might be using now? I cannot answer

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Speaker 2: that question. We've done some preliminary research here on the show.

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Speaker 2: Catapults were certainly used in the First World War by

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Speaker 2: Indian soldiers actually in the trenches and at the Battle

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Speaker 2: of Gallipoli. There were a few that were issued to

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Speaker 2: the British I guess the the Royal soldiers fighting for

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Speaker 2: the King that were used. But at a hand level,

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Speaker 2: the actual trebushe the thing the only thing I can find,

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Speaker 2: and again this is back in the Nafghan research, is

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Speaker 2: a trebushe usage at the Battle of Teno cheek Laan

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Speaker 2: by Hernan Cortes's troops against the Aztecs.

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Speaker 3: And that was in the fifteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: So I believe the trebuchet really went out of fashion

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Speaker 2: as larger siege guns became popular, like big cannons. If

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Speaker 2: you think about let's say, like the Ottomans marching on

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Speaker 2: Vienna some of their major conquests and the major sixteen

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Speaker 2: hundreds also in terms of the way the Ottomans were

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Speaker 2: able to conquer con Stantinople, the larger cannons and siege

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Speaker 2: guns basically replaced the usage of the trebuchet, which was

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Speaker 2: really popular invented by the Chinese, I think with gunpowder,

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Speaker 2: then used by the Mongols basically against the Chinese, spread

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Speaker 2: across Europe by the Mongols. When several battles like Samar Khan,

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Speaker 2: there's a few others people can go and look into.

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Speaker 2: The farthest back that we can find, the real confirmed

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Speaker 2: use is the Battle of Tenom chief Line, although probably

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Speaker 2: somebody can fact check me and find some usage in

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Speaker 2: the interim three hundred years.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, there's no explanation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was there in twenty twenty four. There really

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Speaker 2: is no explanation. This is but done by geeks at

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Speaker 2: like re enactments. This is not something usually used in battle, right.

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Speaker 1: So I guess since we already had the medieval siege

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Speaker 1: in Gaza, they just wanted to get all the medieval

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Speaker 1: esthetic and vibes going as well with this. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and move on to the news with

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Speaker 1: regards to potential escalation in Lebanon of Israel's war against Hesblo.

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Speaker 1: You can put this up on the screen so it

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Speaker 1: appears this is Martaza. Hussein tweeted the sound by a

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Speaker 1: set to green light a major Israeli war on Lebanon,

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Speaker 1: the destruction from which is likely to send another wave

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Speaker 1: of mass migration to Europe at a time this is

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Speaker 1: already a crisis. Only France is trying to intervene, but

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Speaker 1: they don't have capacity to stop it. He links to

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Speaker 1: an article which I believe is in Haretz, talking about

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Speaker 1: how Defense Minister you'll have Galant rules out joining an

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Speaker 1: initiative promoted by Emmanuel macrona which France, the US and

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Speaker 1: Israel would form a contact group to work on defusing

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Speaker 1: escalating tensions with Hesbel on the northern border. Quote, as

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Speaker 1: we fight a just war defending our people. France has

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Speaker 1: adopted hostile policies against Israel.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 1: In doing so, France ignores the atrocities committed by Hamas

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Speaker 1: against Israeli children, women and men. Israel will not be

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Speaker 1: a party to the trilateral framework proposed by France.

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Speaker 4: He writes.

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Speaker 1: Let's go out to the next piece, because we have

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Speaker 1: the IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari directly threatening, saying that Hezbela

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Speaker 1: is quote bringing us to the brink of escalation. Here's

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Speaker 1: the full quote. Hesbela's increasing aggression is bringing us to

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Speaker 1: the break of what could be a wider escalation, one

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Speaker 1: that could have devastating consequences for Lebanon and the entire region.

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Speaker 4: That sounds very much like a threat.

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Speaker 1: He goes on to say, when we say we will

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Speaker 1: not let October seven happen again on any one of

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Speaker 1: our borders, we mean it.

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Speaker 4: One way or another.

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Speaker 1: We will ensure this ethan secure return of Israeli to

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Speaker 1: their homes in northern Israel that is not.

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Speaker 4: Up for negotiation.

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Speaker 1: So soccer as best I can tell, you have a

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Speaker 1: very familiar dynamic playing out here, which is Biden administration

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Speaker 1: continues to send envoys to the region to try to hey,

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Speaker 1: let's not do this full, full war against Hezbola.

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Speaker 4: This could be really bad.

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Speaker 1: But Bibi Netanyahu, who now, by the way, this morning

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Speaker 1: just officially dissolved the war cabinet after Benny Gantz exited,

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Speaker 1: bib Netna who has every intention and every political motivation

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Speaker 1: to keep going. And so even if the US sort

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Speaker 1: of like meekly accepts at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to do anything which effectively serves as

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Speaker 1: a green light for Israel, as it has in every

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Speaker 1: other instance up to this point.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's very troubling.

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Speaker 2: As I always say, this would basically make the Gaza

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Speaker 2: War look like child's play because Hesbola is an actual,

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Speaker 2: very strong military force. I mean, it's effectively stronger than

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Speaker 2: many nation states that are out there. Let's put this

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Speaker 2: up there on the screen. As you allude to Crystal,

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Speaker 2: the Israeli military say that they Hezbola is bringing them

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Speaker 2: to the brink of escalation. But if you read further,

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Speaker 2: there has been tit for tat action that they cite

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Speaker 2: within this piece for basically the course of the entire war,

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Speaker 2: all the way back from the very first week. Remember

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Speaker 2: that huge portions and this is what they talk about

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Speaker 2: in here of northern Israel remain evacuated. It's the largest

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Speaker 2: internal evacuation in the history of the State of Israel.

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Speaker 2: You also have a lot more deaths really per capita

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Speaker 2: of the IDF as a result of Hezbola fire than

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Speaker 2: anything compared to Hamas. Now, somehow, you know, there's been

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Speaker 2: some sort of cap on the violence there between the

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Speaker 2: two sides for now. Nousrella famously gave that speech, I

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Speaker 2: believe it was in the early days of the war.

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Speaker 2: He basically said, we're not going to be party to

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Speaker 2: the war in Gaza. But the Israeli military is also

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Speaker 2: using kind of the cover of all of this chaos

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Speaker 2: and conflict to go and to annihilate Hesbola targets both

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Speaker 2: in Lebanon and in Syria, which then invites some of

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Speaker 2: the tit for tat escalation and it results a lot

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Speaker 2: of Idea soldiers have actually died as a result of

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Speaker 2: this spire. So it's only really a matter of time

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Speaker 2: if we're going to continue to continue the strikes here

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Speaker 2: in Lebanon to drive up the temperature that some sort

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Speaker 2: of miscalculation is effectively inevitable in all of us. And

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Speaker 2: it's clear too that it may not even be miscalculation

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Speaker 2: on the Israeli side. The BB, you know, BB's party,

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Speaker 2: they want this war. They want to use this as

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Speaker 2: a final opportunity to erase all of Israel's so called

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Speaker 2: threats here in the region, or at least, you know,

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Speaker 2: with regards to Hesbola.

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Speaker 3: They want to continue the war in the momentum.

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Speaker 2: You could almost think of it like invading Iraq after

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Speaker 2: what happened in nine to eleven. Honestly a perfect example

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Speaker 2: political purposes using it as cover. But it could be

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Speaker 2: only that in this case that this time the US

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Speaker 2: could actually try and to keep this, you know, or

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Speaker 2: to avoid this conflict. It doesn't seem like that all

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Speaker 2: the stops are ready to be put there, and if

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Speaker 2: that doesn't happen now, then it's very likely it'll just

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Speaker 2: happen already.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just as a reminder to people, Bella

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Speaker 1: to take hostages was not involved in October seventh, and

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Speaker 1: this conflict between Israel and Hasbla will not end until

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Speaker 1: the Gaza onslaught is over, and US officials are acknowledging

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Speaker 1: that as well. I mean, that is the core of

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Speaker 1: the problem here. We're going to talk about the hoofs

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Speaker 1: and the next block. That is the core of the

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Speaker 1: issue there as well. It's the core of the you know, escalation.

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Speaker 1: She has been very frightening vis a vis Iran as well,

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Speaker 1: combined with direct Israeli you know, outrageous provocations with striking

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Speaker 1: the Iranian embassy in Damascus. So not only is there

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Speaker 1: this risk of a broader and even more deadly war,

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Speaker 1: there's also the risk of the US getting pulled directly

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Speaker 1: into this, which again is something that bbnta who very

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Speaker 1: much wants, and I don't think anyone can feel confident

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Speaker 1: that Joe Biden has the fortitude to reject or withstand,

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Speaker 1: so all very very troubling indications and something to keep

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Speaker 1: a close eye on. At the same point, Benny Gantz,

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Speaker 1: who you know I mentioned before, was he was in

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Speaker 1: the war cabinet. He just recently resigned over you know,

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Speaker 1: his concerns about the lack of a hostage deal, the

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Speaker 1: lack in particular of a plan for the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: day after in Gaza and the fact that Bib Netanya,

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Speaker 1: who is doing everything for his own political gain versus

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Speaker 1: the interest of even you know, Israeli citizens. He's been

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Speaker 1: giving some interviews putting a finer point on some of

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Speaker 1: these some of these realities that he saw up close

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Speaker 1: and personal serving in the War Cabinet.

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Speaker 4: We can put this up on the screen.

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Speaker 1: He confirmed that Bib blocked his own hostage deal, stating

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Speaker 1: he approved a plan to return hostages and did nothing

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Speaker 1: to promote it due to political considerations Netna who did

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Speaker 1: not advance the matter strongly enough. So just to underscore again,

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Speaker 1: Benny Ganz, who is no dove here, who you know

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Speaker 1: very much supported the wars part of the war cabin

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Speaker 1: has no issue with the level of civilian death in Mayhem,

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Speaker 1: says that Bibi is is one of the key actors

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Speaker 1: responsible for block a hostage yield that could bring those

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Speaker 1: Israeli hostages home. So to hear from that from him

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Speaker 1: very noteworthy. He also apparently refuted claims of being a

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Speaker 1: mouthpiece for the Biden administration, saying, quote, I am not

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Speaker 1: an envoy of the US government. Stop inventing such claims.

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Speaker 1: He also expressed regret that Bibe didn't utilize his connections

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Speaker 1: with the Americans, noting quote they in the US were

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Speaker 1: impressed with how I.

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Speaker 4: Am more militant than Netanya.

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Speaker 1: Who, So you know, that's the nature of the debate there,

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Speaker 1: him positioning himself is more warlike than BB Netna who himself.

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Speaker 1: Reflecting on the day after a potential resolution, Gant said,

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Speaker 1: Palestinian forces will receive international support. We told bib that

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Speaker 1: we needed to deal with the day after because it

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Speaker 1: is a complex matter that won't solve itself. The fact

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Speaker 1: we didn't deal with it only delayed the security. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: a vacuum in chaos will be created and the soldiers

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Speaker 1: will continue to fight, which, of course, for BB and

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Speaker 1: others who want to forestall any sort of reckoning over

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Speaker 1: their own security failures on October seventh, and BBE, who

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Speaker 1: wants to also keep his own ass out of prison

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Speaker 1: potential corruption charges. Continuing the war is of course the point,

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Speaker 1: and the chaos and the need to you know, go

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Speaker 1: back in only helps to serve BB Netnyahu even as

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Speaker 1: it does not serve certainly, you know, it is disastrous

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Speaker 1: for Palestinians and Gaza, disastrous for the world, and the

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Speaker 1: potential escalation that we were just talking about Visa vi

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Speaker 1: A run and Lebanon, et cetera. And also disastrous for

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Speaker 1: Israelis and their current and future security situation and their

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Speaker 1: goal which is overwhelmingly shared by the Israeli population of

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Speaker 1: returning the hostages.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's going to be the major political weapon

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Speaker 2: against him, is that any acknowledgement bout people who are

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Speaker 2: in the war cabinet, And now the war habit has

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Speaker 2: been dissolved, We're like, yeah, he didn't do enough to

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Speaker 2: free the hostages. That is just an absolute electoral, massive

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Speaker 2: problem for him in any future election. But there has

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Speaker 2: to be a future election, and that is something that

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Speaker 2: he's working over.

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Speaker 6: Time.

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Speaker 2: A war would be very good for him, you know,

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Speaker 2: can you stay, Oh, it's not the right time.

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Speaker 3: We could talk about that after the war.

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Speaker 2: It's day two hundred and fifty four of the war

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Speaker 2: or whatever, two hundred fifty five, I guess now at

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Speaker 2: this point, so at what point, at what point maybe

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Speaker 2: are we allowed to discuss this? And he wants to

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Speaker 2: make sure that point is as far away as possible.

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Speaker 2: Every day he gets to live another day.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So at the same time, we had to share

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Speaker 1: with you some of the tenor of discourse on Hebrew

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Speaker 1: language television on Israel's most watched news show, he can

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Speaker 1: put this up on the screen because it's in Hebrew.

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Speaker 4: Let me just read and by this. So this was

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Speaker 4: confirmed by Herretz.

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Speaker 1: And other Israeli outlets that this is what was actually said.

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Speaker 1: This individual, who is a former LACUD MP, invokes Hitler

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Speaker 1: to justify Gaza resettlement. He says, as Hitler said, I

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Speaker 1: cannot live if one Jew is left. We can't live

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Speaker 1: here if one Islamo Nazi remains in Gaza. So sagur,

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Speaker 1: we now have an analyst here former LACUD, which is

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Speaker 1: again Benjamin Netnahu's party, former LACUD, favorably invoking Hitler's ideology

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Speaker 1: to justify.

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Speaker 4: His view of what should be done in God. Like yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean it speaks for itself.

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Speaker 2: True stranger than fiction, I guess you could say. And

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Speaker 2: on the most popular news show also in the channel.

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Speaker 2: This is what I always am shocked by with them,

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Speaker 2: is like they really don't think that there are people

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Speaker 2: who speak both languages and who are opposed to them

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Speaker 2: and can't do hit a very basic translate. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: apparently they think I mean, look at the same time,

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Speaker 2: like they've mostly gotten away with whatever they want to

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Speaker 2: so far, so why should they care about any supposed consequences.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. I mean, while we need to have

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Speaker 1: like a national crisis. Every time there's a sign on

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Speaker 1: a college campus that's you know, a little off putting

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Speaker 1: to some community or another, and this guy goes on

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Speaker 1: is literally like, hey, we should do to God. Though

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Speaker 1: what Hitler did to the Jews, he had it right

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Speaker 1: with that. It's like, what how do we get here?

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Speaker 1: And I think it's not that they don't realize that

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Speaker 1: we can hear them. It's that, as you said, there's

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Speaker 1: been total impunity. None of this has been with any

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Speaker 1: sort of real consequence, at least visa b the US,

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Speaker 1: and second of all, or whatever domestic constituency this individual

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Speaker 1: is trying to please.

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Speaker 4: They probably agreed it.

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Speaker 1: Probably yeah, I mean, he knows the audience he's talking to, so,

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Speaker 1: you know, for his own domestic political purposes and to

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Speaker 1: get invited back on what is apparently Israel's most watched

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Speaker 1: news show. This is the type of outrageous insanity that

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Speaker 1: you put out into the world. Let's go ahead and

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Speaker 1: move on to the hoo Thies because we haven't talked

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Speaker 1: about them for a while. But meanwhile, Hoofy action is

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Speaker 1: ongoing with regard to attacking ships in the shipping lane.

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Speaker 1: Lane's to try to, you know, put pressure in order

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Speaker 1: to hopefully eventually end Israel's onslaugh onto Gaza.

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Speaker 4: She doesn't seem to be moving in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: News Nation actually did an interesting report talking about how

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Speaker 1: significant a threat they've been, how effective they've been, as

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Speaker 1: well as take a listen to what they found.

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Speaker 6: The message from the United States Navy is clear, the

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Speaker 6: whole world is underestimating. These are run backed, hoothy rebels

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Speaker 6: in Yemen. They say that they are capable, they are

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Speaker 6: well armed, and what is currently happening in the Red

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Speaker 6: Sea and the Gulf of Aden is unprecedented and unlike

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Speaker 6: anything they've seen before.

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Speaker 3: How legitimate are their capabilities?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I think people undersell the who these capability, This

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Speaker 7: anti ship ballistic missile that is a game change. They're

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Speaker 7: a legitimate terrorist organization and they conduct attacks almost daily

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Speaker 7: out here.

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Speaker 6: The Houthis have captured a ship, they have sunk a ship.

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Speaker 6: They've also killed three sailors here in this region.

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Speaker 1: They've got a lot of advanced weaponry that they've purchased

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Speaker 1: or been delivered.

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Speaker 4: From their friends in Iran, and they have no problem

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Speaker 4: using it.

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Speaker 3: I think our objective is to save lives, to put

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Speaker 3: a very simple.

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Speaker 6: So we just saw what's behind the store, which is

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Speaker 6: the combat information centered From the second that one of

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Speaker 6: those missiles has fired at this ship, there's a lot

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Speaker 6: of decisions that need to be made, how to intercept,

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Speaker 6: where to intercept, what kind of tools to be used.

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Speaker 6: All of those decisions in some cases have to be

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Speaker 6: made in a matter of seconds. You know that there

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Speaker 6: are very legitimate adversaries.

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Speaker 7: That are on the ground.

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Speaker 6: What goes through your mind?

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Speaker 8: I shot to you pretty much, just think about the

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Speaker 8: mission itself launching into the pitch black and I at

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Speaker 8: like two am going in there knowing that we were

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Speaker 8: the tip to spear in the case you have.

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Speaker 6: Nearly five thousand souls support here.

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Speaker 3: What keeps you up at night?

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Speaker 4: I'll tell you this, I keep the Hoothies up at night.

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Speaker 1: So I Chine News Nation doing that report because here

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Speaker 1: we are in an ongoing multi month long hot war

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Speaker 1: effectively with the Hoofies, and it gets very little coverage

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Speaker 1: and it does pose you know, grave us to our

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Speaker 1: service members and also comes at a great costs. We

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Speaker 1: tried to look for how much we've spent on this,

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Speaker 1: and we have some dated numbers here which tells you

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Speaker 1: how much interest the most of the process is taken

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Speaker 1: in US.

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Speaker 4: You can put this up on the screen. This is

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Speaker 4: from back in April.

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Speaker 1: We had already spent a billion dollars in just in munitions,

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Speaker 1: by the way, not even counting you know the cost

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Speaker 1: of this mobilization countering the who they attacks. So you

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Speaker 1: know yet another source of money, of risk of potential escalation.

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Speaker 1: That all stems from our inability to exert any influence

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't say inability, our unwillingness to exert any influence

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Speaker 1: visa the Israel.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it also that's Look, that's a billion dollars just

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Speaker 2: in munitions. There's actually appropriated two point four extra billion

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Speaker 2: just to cover the cost of replacing munitions. One issue

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Speaker 2: I have with this is that just seems like you

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Speaker 2: can snap your fingers and these munitions can just be replaced.

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Speaker 2: This is extremely valuable technology, which we are of learning

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Speaker 2: in the Ukraine conflict takes years to reproduced as a

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Speaker 2: result of the dead industrial base here in the United States.

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Speaker 2: So every time that we are firing a missile basically

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Speaker 2: on behalf of the Israelis, we are taking one away

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Speaker 2: from ourselves that could be used in a conflict which

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Speaker 2: is actually relevant to our interests.

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Speaker 3: Those over a billion dollars.

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Speaker 2: By the way, the cost is approximately one point five

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Speaker 2: million dollars per day to run the USS Eisenhower approximately,

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Speaker 2: So just do the math. It's been out there for

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Speaker 2: what couple hundred days? Well, that's a couple hundred mil.

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Speaker 2: You got to pay, and think about all the maintenance costs,

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Speaker 2: and you got to think about the opportunity cost too,

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Speaker 2: of its deployment versus there versus maybe somewhere else. You

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Speaker 2: could see here, we're basically paying for this entire aircraft carrier,

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Speaker 2: which is designed to protect US commerce on the high seas,

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Speaker 2: to protect another nation as it carries out another war.

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Speaker 3: Americans should ask questions about that. Is that worth it?

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Speaker 3: Do you think that it's worth paying for that?

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Speaker 2: Do you think it's worth putting people in the position

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Speaker 2: where they could potentially be hit by an anti ship missile.

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Speaker 2: If your son or daughter works or is an enlisted

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Speaker 2: member of the US Navy, I would say no. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's worth it at all. But nobody ever

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Speaker 2: gets to have this conversation. Like you said, the Press

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Speaker 2: News Nation. Good for them, they at least went out there.

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Speaker 2: What else do you notice about the News Nation interview too,

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Speaker 2: There's a high level of concern by the dudes on

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Speaker 2: those ships and the women as well.

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Speaker 3: They're like, this is not gone away.

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Speaker 2: They're like, we're in this shit every single day and

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Speaker 2: it's not good. And sure we've won so far, but

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Speaker 2: they only need to win once for it to be

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Speaker 2: a major asymmetric victory. Just don't forget about that. You know,

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Speaker 2: props to them, and they're being put in a tough position.

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Speaker 2: But that's my thing is that the policy leaders here

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Speaker 2: in Washington don't ask any questions about this. They just

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Speaker 2: assume it's fine, blank check. Let's not even think about what.

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Speaker 3: It looks like.

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Speaker 2: And then if something bad happens in the future, maybe

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Speaker 2: we could talk about it then.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just is such a representation of how

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Speaker 1: we are this, you know, floundering over extended empire led

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Speaker 1: by a feeble old man who is bumbling from one

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Speaker 1: self made crisis of weakness to another. And you know, meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: it's not only the political leaders that don't really seem

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Speaker 1: to ask any questions, with very few exceptions, it's also

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Speaker 1: in fact they just further this direction. You know, they

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Speaker 1: embrace it wholeheartedly. It's also the press that, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a rare report that we've seen on what

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Speaker 1: is even going on here at this point, so you know,

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Speaker 1: that serves to help keep the public in the dark.

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Speaker 1: And nonetheless, in spite of those efforts, you still see

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Speaker 1: the public very unhappy with the direction of our unconditional

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Speaker 1: support of Israel. You know, certainly Biden's face, as we

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Speaker 1: covered before, having a lot of issues with the direction,

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Speaker 1: and an overall sentiment of there's always money for more

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Speaker 1: munitions to bomb the Hufi's and protect Israel, there's always

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Speaker 1: money to ship to Ukraine, and there's never any interest

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Speaker 1: in actually delivering for us here at home. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, as I was mentioning, you know the lawmakers

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Speaker 1: who are just you know, totally invested in this direction,

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Speaker 1: with only a few very notable and you know, brave dissenters.

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Speaker 1: At this point, we have yet another push for some

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Speaker 1: sort of codifying anti Semitism censorship bill, this one coming

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Speaker 1: directly from Hakeem Jeffries, who, of course the leader of

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Speaker 1: the Democrats in the House, he's calling for passage of

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Speaker 1: the quote Countering Anti Semitism Act, and Michael Tracy, who

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Speaker 1: does such a great job of digging into these bills

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Speaker 1: and highlighting what they mean. He says this bill would

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Speaker 1: create a new National Coordinator to Counter Anti Semitism within

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Speaker 1: the Executive Office of the President, to among other things,

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Speaker 1: quote counter the spread of anti Semitism online, i e.

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Speaker 1: He says, government co or censorship, including to impose and

438
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: this is the language from the bill Accountability for Individuals.

439
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 1: So Hakeem Jeffries, who I'm sure has probably blanket support

440
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 1: among the Republicans in the House as well, and overwhelming

441
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 1: majority support from the Democrats, looking to once again take

442
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 1: further steps to directly codify censorship when it comes to

443
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 1: their definition of quote unquote anti Semitism. And we already

444
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: know soccer because we've covered the definition that they're using here.

445
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 1: It effectively bans criticism of the Israeli government and smears

446
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: those who would be critical as being anti Semites.

447
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, scary stuff, very scary, especially whenever you combine it

448
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 2: with what's happening let's go to the next part because

449
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 2: what we see here, and this was surprising, It says,

450
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 2: for the first time since nineteen seventy two, the NDAA

451
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 2: would automatically register all males age eighteen to twenty six

452
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: for selective service in the military. So for the past

453
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 2: fifty two years, you're actually required to register on your own,

454
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: but compliance reportedly had been lagging in terms of selective service.

455
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 2: They're switching it to automatic registration, presumably after significant pressure

456
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 2: from the military.

457
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 3: You read into that what you will.

458
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say it's some grand conspiracy or whatever,

459
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 2: but you know, start to get a little nervous anytime

460
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 2: we start to see things.

461
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 3: Like this is really hey, what's going on? Why?

462
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: And I can tell you why, which is that enlistment

463
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: right now is an all time low in the US military.

464
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 3: Young people do not want to enlist.

465
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 2: They do not agree either with foreign policy, or they

466
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 2: think the incentives are not even close to where they

467
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 2: were or and honestly, this is sad, but most people

468
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 2: are just way too fat to join the military and

469
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: not physically fit. So you have a combination. It's like

470
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: a poly crisis. And it's not me saying this. You

471
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: can ask any individual service and look at their reports

472
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 2: to Congress about enlistment.

473
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 3: What do you do, well, you start to put pressure

474
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 3: for selective service.

475
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: And let's just say, the last time that we saw

476
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: this in the nineteen sixties, it didn't go so well.

477
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 3: We'll see how it sager.

478
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 4: You'll love this.

479
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: That was a Democrat who was sort of leading this

480
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: charge to get this into the NBAA And.

481
00:23:58,640 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 4: By the way, there isn't.

482
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: The expectation is that the Senate has other issues with

483
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: the NBA, not necessarily this one, but there's an expectation

484
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: they're not going to take up this bill.

485
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 4: Just to be clear, But you'll love this.

486
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: Democrat who is pushing this uses social justice language to

487
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: justify it. She says this will allow us to rededicate resources.

488
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: Basically that means money towards readiness and mobilization rather than

489
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: towards education and advertising campaigns driven to register people. And

490
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: she says it will ensure any future military draft is

491
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: fair and equitable.

492
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: Oh good, Yes, that's that's exactly right. That's what we need.

493
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: We need an equitable draft. I mean, if we're to

494
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: have a draft, I'm in favor of an equitable draft.

495
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: But I'd rather just have no draft, but.

496
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 4: Not have a draft to how about that one?

497
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: It's just all right, incredible, you can't make it up,

498
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: as you said.

499
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: Just wow.

500
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, we got Brianna Joyed Gray standing by.

501
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: Let's get to it.

502
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: We are very happy to be joined today by Brianna

503
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: joy Gray, formerly of the Hill and currently most importantly

504
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 1: host of the Bad Faith podcast, which everyone should subscribe to.

505
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: But it's always great to see you.

506
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 9: Always a pleasure, Chrystilton Sager, Good to see you.

507
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: So, I know you've told this story a number of

508
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: times at this point, but I would really like you

509
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: to go back a little bit. We played on our

510
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 1: show the you know, alleged eye rolling incident, along with

511
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: additional parts of that interview so people could get more

512
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: of a fullsome sense of it and what you were

513
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: dealing with there, which I thought was an impossible situation.

514
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 4: But I'd love it if you could go.

515
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: Back a little bit because I think our audience are

516
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: very interested in how these forces of censorship operate over

517
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: time and the type of pressure that you've been under

518
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: at the Hill, you know, escalating post October seven, but

519
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: even before that.

520
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 9: Perhaps, Yeah, that's a really good question, and I'm glad

521
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 9: your focus there, because I do think that in the

522
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 9: immediate aftermath of the firing and the kind of rationale

523
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 9: that were presented for why it happened, the larger story

524
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 9: of the fact that this has been going on for

525
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 9: months and months, you know, lighter versions of censorships kind

526
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 9: of the threat of the actual termination has been happening.

527
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 9: You're right, before October seventh, there were retentions, but most

528
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 9: certainly after October seventh. We all know that Katie Halper

529
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 9: was let go from the Hill over year before October

530
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 9: seventh for doing a radar in which she described Israel

531
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 9: as an apartheid state and cited innumerable sources for that claim,

532
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 9: including Bet Selim and other sources within Israel. And despite

533
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 9: the fact that she's a Jewish woman citing Israeli sources

534
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 9: for what is broadly considered to be a widely understood

535
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 9: and accepted description in the international community. She was told

536
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 9: that for non ideological reasons, right, they claimed it was

537
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 9: for non ideological reasons, that there was something about the

538
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 9: form the style of her radar that wasn't up to

539
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 9: the Hills standards, and that that meant that she could

540
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 9: never appear on the Hill again, not just as a

541
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 9: guest host, but in any capacity. So obviously that makes

542
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 9: no sense at all. And for me, the writing was

543
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 9: on the wall, and when Katie and I talked about

544
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 9: what I should do afterward and how I should conduct

545
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 9: myself on the Hill afterward, it was very clear that

546
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 9: the only justification for me staying there was to be

547
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 9: a sort of a test case and to continue to

548
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 9: press those buttons, in particularly the one about coverage, critical

549
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 9: coverage of Israel, until what we ultimately knew was going

550
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 9: to happen actually did manifest, which is that censorship would

551
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 9: come into effect and after October seventh.

552
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 4: I mean, I've mentioned.

553
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 9: This in other places, but I think it's really important

554
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 9: to note there were very clear instances of ideological censorship,

555
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 9: for example saying that Norm Finkelstein could not come on

556
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 9: the show, and there were softer versus the censorship, where

557
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 9: frequently the language Israel block would be used to describe

558
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 9: our Israel coverage for the day, the idea that all

559
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,959
Speaker 9: of the news that pertained what was going on in

560
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 9: Israel and Gaza related to the crisis could be confined

561
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 9: to one segment out of eight to ten that were

562
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 9: filmed in a day. And when I push back on that, saying,

563
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 9: we never describe it as like a Tucker Carlson block,

564
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 9: or a COVID block, or a Joe Rogan block, or

565
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 9: an economy block or Joe Biden block, any other of

566
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,239
Speaker 9: the topics that we cover. You know, if there's an

567
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 9: appetite for it, we understand what the audience likes, and

568
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 9: we understand the news value and will weigh those things

569
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 9: and decide how to proceed accordingly. They said, oh no, no, no,

570
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 9: it's not We're not really talking about an Israel block.

571
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 9: I swear, But again and again that phraseology would come up,

572
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 9: and everyone's speaking of eye rolls.

573
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 4: Everybody in the.

574
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,719
Speaker 9: Room would roll their eyes whenever I proposed topics that

575
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 9: were related to Gaza.

576
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: See, this is very interesting, and just so for clarity purposes,

577
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: Hill Is transferred ownership after Crystal and I left there.

578
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: So some of this sounds familiar. Some of this is

579
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: a little bit more explicit. So you're telling us even

580
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: though your name is behind you. It's like Rising with

581
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: Breanna and Robbie that they are explicitly programming and telling

582
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 2: you who you can have on the show, who you

583
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: can have on the show and explicitly defining blocks like,

584
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: for example, people who are watching our show, those what

585
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: we would refer to as blocks binos. The only people

586
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: who decided her Crystal, me and the editorial team. But

587
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: for you, you were actually being told and pigeonholed where

588
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: things were.

589
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: That's what was happening. Yeah, in the scenes.

590
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 4: Part of the issue was that the editorial team had changed.

591
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 9: So let's say six months ago, the end of last

592
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 9: year beginning of this year, we had a different producer

593
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 9: who was lovely and supportive and really knew how to

594
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 9: run a good show. And there were these problems existed

595
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 9: more in terms of, you know, Robby and I would

596
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 9: disagree on screen, but to the extent that whatever pressures

597
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 9: from you know, higher up, were filtering down. She did

598
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 9: a really good job of sort of being the bulwark

599
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 9: against that sort of editorial pressure. Eventually, though, that pressure

600
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 9: became so great, and the pressure on mini staffers became

601
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 9: so great that between January and the time that I left,

602
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 9: everybody was basically either pushed out or fired. So there

603
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 9: were legacy guys that worked in the control room, you know,

604
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 9: did sound intech that you two both know that were

605
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 9: there in January, and we're not there by the time

606
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 9: that I left. We took a photograph in January when

607
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 9: I think an intern was leaving, and Robbie and I

608
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 9: remarked months later that zero people in that photograph were

609
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 9: still employed at The Hill except for the.

610
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 4: Two of us.

611
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 9: So there was a big staff change that I think

612
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 9: also made it so that the pressures were more acute,

613
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 9: precisely because the new producer was hired, but they said

614
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 9: was it was described as to have more editorial control

615
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 9: over the show.

616
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 4: You know, I might not be frasing that exactly, but more.

617
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 9: Editorial input and to bring Rising in line with the

618
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 9: Hill kind of writing side more generally speaking, which, as

619
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 9: you might remember, I mean there was there's always been

620
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 9: this tension between The Hill as a new written news

621
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 9: source in the tone of it, and the very kind

622
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 9: of opinion driven show of Rising. And it always has

623
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 9: felt like there was almost an embarrassment by the Hill

624
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 9: to have this show that was successful but very tonally

625
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 9: different than the kind of news they put out over

626
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 9: at the Hill. And it seemed like the more they

627
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 9: ratcheted up their attempts to bring Rising into conformity at

628
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 9: the same time that I think my coverage of Gaza

629
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 9: and Israel became particularly a thorn in their side.

630
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: Well, some of those pieces, even though there's new management

631
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: now very familiar to us. And you know, obviously we

632
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: launched the show Rising Dagera and I am part of

633
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: what was important to us in our worldview, as we

634
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: did position it as a place where you could have

635
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: dissenting voices and opinions that weren't heard other places. And

636
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: The Hill has sought both to profit off of that

637
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: brand as a free speech platform, but also to correll

638
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: you in particular, but obviously Katie Helper, I'm sure others

639
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: as well into what is actually you know, a comfortable

640
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: lane for them. And you know, I think that's worth spelling,

641
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: and I love to hear you talk a little bit

642
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: more about how that operated and if there were other

643
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: topics where you felt similar pressure other guests that were

644
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: similarly banned. But the other thing that I think is

645
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: worth noting for people here is that, you know, if

646
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: you look at the Hills Channel, your segments on Israel

647
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: were frequently some of the highest performers, So there was

648
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: a you know, there were forces operating here. There was

649
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: an upset here that went beyond you know, the quote

650
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: unquote ratings, which from that perspective, it was your coverage

651
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: was very successful. It was one of the things that

652
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: people were most interested in hearing from Rising at this

653
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: point in the show's history. So I'd love your sense

654
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: of Okay, So how where does that pressure come from?

655
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: Did you face similar pressure on other issues or was

656
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: it really sort of unique to this one nation state

657
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: and one conflict.

658
00:32:58,800 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

659
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 9: I think that's such an important point because, look, you

660
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 9: are obviously you you are the blueprints right for what

661
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 9: we were doing. You know that there are it's a

662
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 9: right left show. There are obviously topics that you're more

663
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 9: excited about, Crystal from a leftist perspective, and Sager more

664
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 9: that you're excited about from right leading perspective, and the

665
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 9: same is true for us. And there are topics that

666
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 9: you know, I'm not wild about talking about because frankly,

667
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 9: as a leftist, I feel like there are distractions from

668
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 9: the material issues that are more core to my political project.

669
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 9: But I understand that it's a show and the audience

670
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 9: has its own tastes, and I understand even though I

671
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 9: don't think it's maybe the most important thing in the world.

672
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 4: If you know, if if Joe.

673
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 9: Rogan and Tucker Carlson are in a room together somewhere

674
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 9: at Davos, then those are all the key words that

675
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 9: are going to light up the scoreboard, and that we're

676
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 9: going to cover it. It's not that big a deal,

677
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 9: and you just go along with it and you get

678
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 9: a little your stuff.

679
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: I get a little my stuff.

680
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 9: That's the compromise, particularly because I know that some of

681
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 9: that stuff really really does well. You know, I'm not

682
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 9: I'm not going to sit here and ignore the reality

683
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 9: that they're ready a business and I am benefiting from

684
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 9: the ability to be on this platform and to say

685
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 9: what I want to say what I want to say it.

686
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 4: But then there's, you know, there's the give and take.

687
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 9: What was so frustrating for me, in particular, was that

688
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 9: the things that are of interest to me were frequently

689
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 9: not the big ticket winners. Right me, covering some Starbucks

690
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 9: labor dispute isn't necessarily going to get us, you know,

691
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 9: two hundred thousand views. But when it came to Israel Palestine,

692
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 9: for once, my kind of ideological interest happened to align

693
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 9: where the audience's ideological interests were and Suddenly all the

694
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 9: arguments that I had been confronted with about why we

695
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 9: need to cover X, Y, and Z issue because it's

696
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 9: good for business went out the window, and they seem

697
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 9: to be working at cross purposes with their.

698
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 4: Own economic agenda.

699
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 9: And this went even further because there are you know,

700
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 9: some other shows at the Hill that are less successful.

701
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 9: This is no slight to anybody who's working there. I

702
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 9: encourage those shows to keep, you know, working at it

703
00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 9: and trying to be successful.

704
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 4: That's fine. But we were constantly.

705
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 9: Being told that there were limited resources to hire staff

706
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 9: that had been let go or who had left because

707
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 9: how hard it was to work there with their little

708
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 9: staff support. Right, It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. People leave,

709
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 9: you don't hire a new staff, it becomes even more

710
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 9: difficult for the old staff, the remaining staff to keep

711
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 9: up with content. They had higher expectations on them without

712
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 9: higher pay, and so then they leave, and it was

713
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 9: a cycle that was building over time. We were told

714
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 9: we couldn't hire a new staff at the same time

715
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 9: that we saw other shows that weren't as successful just

716
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 9: objectively and weren't bringing in the money being staffed up

717
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 9: and resources being devoted to them in a way that

718
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 9: didn't seem like it made very much sense.

719
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 4: And what it always felt like to us was that because.

720
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 9: Of the embarrassment around Rising, they were hoping that one

721
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 9: of the more kind of typical staid news shows would

722
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 9: become more successful and ultimately they would be justified and

723
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 9: cutting ties with Rising. I do wonder sometimes if they

724
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 9: really even care about the success of the show, if

725
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 9: they're secretly hoping that doing things like firing Katie, firing me,

726
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 9: firing Kim will kill the show, because then they have

727
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 9: a justification for not just trashing what is so obviously

728
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 9: a valuable property. And the one other point to the

729
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 9: editorial control aspect of it. I was told when I

730
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 9: joined the show that no matter what, the radars were sacrisanct, right,

731
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 9: the video essays were sacrisanct, And in fact, about a

732
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 9: year ago I had agreed to do go from three

733
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 9: days a week to four if I didn't have to

734
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 9: do radars because they're very time consuming.

735
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 4: I said, fine trade off. Yeah, that's a fine trade off.

736
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 9: But as they started trying to censor the Israel coverage,

737
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 9: I went back to doing a lot of radars because

738
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 9: I felt like that was the only way I could

739
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 9: get more about what was going on in Gaza into

740
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 9: the lineup every day, right. I didn't want to, but

741
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 9: I felt frankly compelled to. At that point, I started

742
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 9: getting pushed back from the new producer as to what

743
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 9: was even going into my radar, and that really became

744
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 9: a tipping point in the source of a lot of

745
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 9: behind the scenes arguing, where it seemed like every single

746
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 9: thing that happened on the show off scene, not even

747
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 9: to mention what was happening on screen with Robbie, was

748
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 9: so contentious and so stressful that it made it very, very,

749
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 9: very difficult to put on a show.

750
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 3: That's crazy. Yeah, I mean I've heard very similar things, Brianna.

751
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: It's not just about you.

752
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff I've been hearing from behind

753
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: the scenes, like you just said, about censorship, about meddling,

754
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: about some of the control and I think, look, this

755
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 2: could be tedious and almost inside baseball, but I think

756
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 2: that people want to hear this because this is what's

757
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 2: actually happening. This is why Chrystal and I left just

758
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: by the way, but it's also this is how every

759
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: network news show operates. This is just more in the open,

760
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 2: because Brianna, you are somebody who also has an alternative path.

761
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: You can speak out about this without suffering genuine repercussion.

762
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: So what does it feel like now, you know, to

763
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: be on the other sides, you feel more liberated?

764
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: Are you happier? And how are you thinking about the.

765
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 4: I mean, I will say I am very lucky in

766
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 4: the grand scheme of things.

767
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 9: But it's also true that I got hit with them

768
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 9: hundreds of spam emails addressed to Patreon.

769
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 4: They were sent to my.

770
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 9: Bad faith account, I think unwittingly, but addressed to Patreon

771
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 9: with this form letter begging Patreon to kick me off

772
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 9: of the platform, right, And we have seen that kind

773
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 9: of censorship from some of these kind of host platforms

774
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 9: in the past, depending on what the ideological availance of

775
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 9: the complaint is. So it is concerning that unless you're

776
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 9: fully independent with your own infrastructure the way that you

777
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 9: guys have, that there are still ways for people to

778
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 9: attempt to try to deplatform. You don't know if that's

779
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 9: the right word in this context, but you're not entirely safe.

780
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 4: I'd also say that, I.

781
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 9: Mean, I sat down with Don Lemon at some point

782
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 9: last week and He revealed on the course of that

783
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 9: interview that he's had other people from you know, I

784
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 9: guess CNN, the you know, the mainstream millio where he

785
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 9: operated for so many years, reach out and tell him

786
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 9: that they've never felt more constrained and never felt more

787
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 9: afraid about talking about an issue than they have about

788
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 9: Israel Palestine post October seventh, and that they find themselves

789
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 9: going over their segments afterward, wondering if they said the

790
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 9: wrong thing, and going through it with a fine tooth

791
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 9: calm because they're feeling, at these legacy news outlets an

792
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 9: incredible amount of pressure not to say something that's too

793
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 9: critical of Israel.

794
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 4: So to your point, Zager.

795
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 9: Like, absolutely, it's this is par for the course for

796
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 9: your average news outlet, and it's why I think genuinely

797
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 9: independent outlets like yours are so important. But yes, I

798
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 9: am very grateful to continue to be able to do

799
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 9: what I've been doing for years long before Rising, which

800
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 9: is my own podcast, my own show Bad Faith, And

801
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 9: I'm frankly looking forward to having a little bit more

802
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 9: space to focus on the podcast and to also focus

803
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 9: on writing and some other more creative things that have

804
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 9: sat by the wayside because rising was just so time consuming.

805
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: I have zero doubt you're going to continue to be

806
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: phenomenally successful. I know you probably can you way happier

807
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: to if our experience is any guide. So you may

808
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: look back at this and say, you know what, in

809
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: the end, this is the best thing that ever happened

810
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: to me. But you know, we've followed, and you follow

811
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: all of these stories of censorship across the country. I mean,

812
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: it does really seem like this is the number one

813
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 1: issue on which cancel culture, censorship, deplatforming is the greatest threat,

814
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: not to mention, all of these bills and resolutions that

815
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: are passing through Congress to effectively codify and embrace that

816
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: censorship on both sides of the Aisle. We just I'm

817
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: sure you also saw this. This Israeli holocaust scholar who

818
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: is now ros Ziegel, who is now being denied his

819
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 1: position because he was critical and is calling Israel's assault

820
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: on Gaza a genocide, which, by the way, the ICJ

821
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: is investigating. Numerous other scholars have called it that as well.

822
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: It is in fact the majority position of Biden voters

823
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: that what Israel is doing in Gaza constant to the genocide.

824
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 4: So in some ways.

825
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: Even though you're going to be fine because you have

826
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: a platform, you're phenomenally talented, and we're going to make

827
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: sure you know, to support you in all the ways

828
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: we can as well, there are going to be a

829
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: lot of other people out there who are perhaps more

830
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: junior in their career, perhaps don't have that established platform,

831
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, and self censor because they see what happened

832
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 1: to you. They see what happens to these professors Meddi Hassan,

833
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: other media personalities Katie Helper who have paid a cost

834
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: for being outspoken on this specific issue.

835
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 9: Yes, in March Lmont Hill years ago. I mean so ironic.

836
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 9: This has been going on for a really long time.

837
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 9: All we're seeing is a kind of exponential example of

838
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 9: ex social growth, the number of examples that have the

839
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 9: come out since October seventh, And I think in some

840
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 9: ways the crackdown is opening up the eyes of a

841
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 9: lot of people who really didn't realize how much of

842
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 9: a red line is this issue is right, it doesn't

843
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 9: have a red line, but talking about this in American

844
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 9: politics is absolutely a red line. I think it's frankly

845
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 9: having a radicalizing effect that is going in the opposite

846
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,919
Speaker 9: direction of the Hasbara, which is to say, I mean,

847
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 9: you know, even you know, as much as Robby and

848
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 9: I debated this, I mean, what is Robbie to take

849
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 9: away from the idea that this is the issue that

850
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 9: ultimately got me forced off the show? Does that change

851
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 9: your perspective as someone who has defended Israel about the

852
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 9: incongruity of Israel's position that it's a democracy and that

853
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 9: it respects free speech and it's the only democracy in

854
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 9: the Middle East to see the Allied kind of social

855
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 9: media forces, the reporting about the Israeli government branch that

856
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 9: has officially launched this propaganda campaign to influence US lawmakers

857
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 9: and to create a culture online that being critical of

858
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 9: Israel is bad for business.

859
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 4: I mean, how can that not influence you.

860
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 9: To be increasingly critical of Israel going forward and increasingly

861
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 9: skeptical of why it is that all of that is

862
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 9: necessary to continue to have the dominance and influence that

863
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 9: they've had in American politics for generations.

864
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: Well, Breed, tell people where they can follow you and

865
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: how they can support you, and any ideas you're going

866
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: to continue, obviously working on the podcast and building that

867
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: now any other projects that you've got in the works,

868
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: you want to keep people.

869
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 9: I don't want to commit to anything just yet.

870
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 4: That's fair because I don't want to.

871
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 9: I don't want to, you know, my mouth to proceede

872
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 9: my actual ability to double dad and make make the

873
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 9: content that I have planned. But you can follow everything

874
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 9: that I'll be doing. I'll be announcing new stuff on

875
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Speaker 9: my podcast. You can watch free episodes on YouTube at

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Speaker 9: bad Faith YouTube, and you can subscribe at patreon dot

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Speaker 9: com slash bad Faith Podcast to get an additional episode

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Speaker 9: I drop on Mondays today is an episode with Jeffrey Sachs,

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Speaker 9: which is very good and I highly recommend. And free

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Speaker 9: clips of the premium Patreon episodes are also put on

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Speaker 9: bad Faith YouTube, so be sure to go there and

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Speaker 9: subscribe and follow the channel so you can get those

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Speaker 9: as well.

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Speaker 3: All right in the description, so there you go.

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Speaker 1: All right, guys, Brianna, so great to see you, and

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Speaker 1: as I said, I know you're you're gonna do well

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Speaker 1: and I'm excited for this next chapter for you.

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Speaker 4: Thank you both. I really appreciate it our pleasure.

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Speaker 2: All right, guys, thank you so much for watching. As

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Speaker 2: we said, we'll have links to the description for Brianna

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Speaker 2: down in the bottom. Otherwise, Crystal, you'll be back in

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Speaker 2: the studio tomorrow and we'll see you then.