WEBVTT - The Fist Punch Theory of Evolution 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:05.920 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:14.160 Works dot com. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:15.920 your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and I am 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.920 Christian Sager. Hey, Robert, I want you to hit me 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.640 as hard as you can. All right, here it goes. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.560 You hit me in the ear. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, No, 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:32.199 that was perfect. Are you okay? Hit me again? Now? 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:36.560 Maybe later. Man, We've got an episode to record, so, 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.720 as you may guess from our little uh little fight 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:46.000 club homage there, this episode is about the evolution of punching, 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:50.040 in particular fists and human beings and how we evolved 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.960 in the theory that our hands specifically evolved so that 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.160 we could fight each other. Yeah, in particular, this is 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.160 the theory that's been put forth by by all just 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.800 David Carrier from the University of Utah, and he's done 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:06.399 a number of different studies and published a number of 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:11.840 different papers um supporting this theory. And whether you agree 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.039 with it or not, he makes some He just makes 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.880 a wonderful case for it, and he's committed to this theory. Yeah. 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:19.960 I want to say he has like what five academic 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.560 papers published all about different parts of the body, but 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:24.880 all around this theory. Yes, the most recent of which 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.040 just came out in the last couple of months. Uh. 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.760 And in fact, we have done how Stuff works video 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.319 about it that you wrote and started in and there's 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.640 a little like article accompanying it. Yeah. Well, I think 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:41.240 the real stars of that video. But we'll get to that. 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.080 So see if you want, If you want something a 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.240 little little creepy fun, this will deliver. But for the 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.400 most part, we're talking about basic human evolution here, the 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.160 evolution of the human form and really the human function 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.520 as well, the humanity's shadows self. Yeah. Well, before we 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:59.440 get into the meat of the episode, I just want 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.520 to remind our listeners that we have a couple of 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.720 things going on with social media right now. We've just 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:09.120 started periscoping and we're doing that every Friday at noon. 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.200 We did our first one last week and it went 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.839 really well, so we're gonna try it again. We're gonna 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:16.800 try to keep going with it, uh, and we'd love 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:18.240 to see you there. So if you have time, you 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.520 have periscope on your phone or your computer or whatever, 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.800 check it out and uh talk to us. Yeah, we'll 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.200 have links about it on Facebook and Twitter and Tumbler 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.520 as well. Uh, and we'll be reminding you right before 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.400 it happened. Yeah. Absolutely, and we're blow the mind on 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.840 all of those social media platforms. One other thing too, 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:41.519 we were thinking we've heard that apparently it helps your 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:46.760 iTunes rankings if you get reviews. I'm assuming positive reviews 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.160 from your listeners. Uh, and we checked in. There haven't 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.119 been that many reviews in a while, especially since Joe 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.960 and I joined the show. So we're hoping that if 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:58.320 you could please go in and you know, if you 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.480 have time, provider review you for us over in iTunes. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.680 And I just found out yesterday too. Did you know 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.240 we're available on Google Play now as well. Apparently they 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.680 have a podcast streaming service as well. Yeah that's pretty cool. 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:11.799 So yeah, how about the algorithm dropped by iTunes of 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.600 your an iTunes listener give us a positive review. Uh, 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:16.560 it helps us out because some of those reviews are 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:18.760 old like that, years and years back to when the 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.959 podcast was still in diapers, right, all right, so let's 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:26.679 get into it. Fists Punching Fight Club. Yes, so, um, 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:31.280 if you've ever seen Stanley Kubrick's sci fi classic two 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.320 thousand one of Space Odyssey and I hope you have, 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:37.280 because it's it's really the stuff to blow your mind movie, 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.960 and many of us um it paints a wonderful picture 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:46.400 of humanity's violent evolutionary ascension, right this wonderful Dawn of 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.480 Man segment in which these early hominids, some of the 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.920 best men in monkey suits ever in eight suits if 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:58.040 you rather, just sort of mucking about and then eventually 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:02.400 just discovering a was technology, the technology to pick up 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.800 a tool specifically, I think like a taper of job 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.520 and just start wailing on animals and each other. Yeah. 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.840 There's this band that I like called Oxes and they 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.600 performed itself by Southwest one year and they just did 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:20.200 that entire scene verbatim at the end of their show. 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:22.800 It's like, like, I think they played the music that 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.479 was going on in it and then like they acted out. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.400 They acted out, they showed the members of the band 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:34.560 acted it out. Yeah, it was pretty amusing. But yes, 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.120 so this brings us to the real like I think, 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.520 academic heart of this episode is a guy named David Carrier, 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.160 and he is uh if you, by the way, if 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.359 you google David Carrier, it turns out that there's a 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.720 bunch of other guys with that name who get higher 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:53.360 rankings Google than him. So you might want to add 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:58.760 like evolutionary or a biologist or something like that, this 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:02.680 would work. Yeah. He's at the University of Utah, uh, 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.160 and he has published multiple papers, like we said, and 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:11.920 really just has this overall theory that humanity, especially male humans, 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:17.560 have physically evolved over time, uh, to be fighting machines basically, 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.279 and that that is something that's inherent in us. And 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.000 I think what he's getting out overall is that we 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.000 now live in a society where there aren't that many 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:30.400 reasons for melee combat. Uh. Actually the episode that we're 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:32.840 kind of record after this one is about another form 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.760 of combat. But in terms of fist fighting, there aren't 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.159 that many reasons, right, not like they're there used to 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:41.520 be back in the good days, back back when we 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.440 used to and you know, jokingly, I think that this 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.040 is kind of the philosophical heart of Fight Club as well, right, 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.760 the the idea that that like we're made to be 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:57.560 hunter gatherer physical fighting machines and our primordial fisticuff roots. Yeah, 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.839 and in modern society doesn't allow us to do that. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.279 So where do we how do we you know, burn 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:08.920 off that inherent I don't know, uh, evolutionary aesthetic. Yeah. Now, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.560 it's it's important to note here that an in carrier 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.840 will be the first to stay this as well. Obviously, 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.240 there are a number of different factors going on in 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:21.000 human evolution and the ascent of man um you have. 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.479 You know, our oversized brains are our diet um some 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.760 of the just environmental scenarios that enabled us to get 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:31.200 to where we are now. Uh, and so his you 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.680 often encounter the idea that comes down to our tool use. Right. 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.559 A tool use, of course, is an important aspect of 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.920 a humanity. Humanities of center, our ability to to like 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.440 that guy in an eight costume in two thousand one, 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.080 to pick up a tool and start using it, um 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:52.920 to to overpower more sophisticated predators, to overpower each other. 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.520 And certainly we have the manual dexterity to make tools, 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.200 to wield to tools. We have the brain that can 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.440 allow us to update our body schema to incorporate this 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.520 tool into our image of ourself and utilize it properly. 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:10.840 But UH Carrier is ultimately making the case that that 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:15.640 the real violent aspect of humanity enters the picture along 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:19.600 with if not earlier than our tool using hands like 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.680 that when you look at the human hand, yes, manual 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.640 dexterity is a big part of the form, but also 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:30.280 the ability to punch right right. Yeah, And so from 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.200 the research that we looked at for this, most anthropologists 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:37.120 up until Carriers research have been saying just that that 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.520 the dexterity is the important part, and it's so that 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.160 we can pick up things and maybe throw things, but 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.880 especially to help us use those tools, have you know, 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.520 made us the powerful species that we are, right, But 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:50.320 one of the this is an important fact to throw 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.240 out there too, is that when you when it comes 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.320 to punching, no matter what you've seen and Disney is 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.240 the Jungle Book, humans are the only creatures that can 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.240 throw a punch. Yeah, you know what. I had never 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.160 thought about that before until reading Carriers research, and of 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:09.080 course it makes sense. But not even primates can do it, right. 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.040 We we alone, even among the primates, are the only 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.280 ones who can curl that that that hand up into 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.760 a fully buttressed fist and uh, you know, socket to them. 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:20.920 So the idea is that in our current form, this 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.120 evolved form, you can just look at your hand right 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.160 now and try this out. The closed fists, the fully 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.480 buttressed fist with the generally with the thumb on top. 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.880 According to the schematics we're looking at, Um, what what's 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.760 occurring here is that the closed fist protects the hands, 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:41.520 delicate bones, the muscles, ligaments during impacts. So Carrier's theory 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.760 says that we've we've evolved to be able to throw 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:48.560 that punch. There's a there's an evolutionary advantage in being 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.000 able to throw that punch in such a way to 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:55.360 where you can get maximum force without damaging those delicate 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.920 manual dexterity tools that that are your hands. So that 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.200 right there leads me to think that this isn't like 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:06.920 such a black and white issue within evolutionary biology and 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.920 anthropology that it's either a fist or it's manual dexterity. 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.600 I think it's both, right. I think ultimately that's the 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.400 argument he's trying to make. Otherwise he wouldn't be saying, well, 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.079 the whole purpose of a buttressed fist is to protect 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.640 the hand from getting damaged so that it can subsequently 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.520 later on go and use manual dexterity. Yeah, I mean 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.920 imagine kind of a prehistart dating game, right, and in 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.400 which you have the the lovely young woman and then 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.440 the three potential suitors. One one one of them could 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.000 throw a really hard punch, but he can only do 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.560 it every every so often because it shatters all the 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:45.640 all the fingers in his hands, and it's such his 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.280 his hands are garbled, a garbled mess. He can't build anything. 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.480 He's not he's not good for anything else around. He 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.160 just gets into like one fight every like two or 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.520 three months and nails it, but then he's useless. And 0:09:58.520 --> 0:09:59.920 then on the other hand, you have an end of 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.800 jewel who's who's wonderful around the camp for manual dexterity. Uh, 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:05.480 but all I can do is kind of slap and paw. 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.120 But in the middle, the sweet spot is you have 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.560 an individual who can who can buttress that fist, who 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.520 can who can punch hard, but at the end of 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.319 the day, can still do all the other things around 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.320 the camp in the tribal community that are important and 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.600 essential to passing on his jeans. Right. Yeah, And so 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.520 one thing that I think is important to distinguish here too, 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.920 if I think I have this right, is that carriers fists. 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.720 If you're listening, like maybe make a fist. Right, now, 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:40.880 go along with me. Here is that your four interior 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.440 fingers are folded in and your thumb is over your 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.920 second and third finger, right or sorry, rather your third, 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:52.400 your middle finger and your ring finger. Yes, that's how 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.120 it's depicted in the study. Is the best way to 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.559 get accomplished. This I've been fighting wrong my whole life, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:01.480 I think, because I don't. I think I've been doing 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.280 it the wrong way. I think my thumb Not that 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:08.040 I get into fights that often, but the thumb over 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.319 I've been doing it with my thumb over my forefinger 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.680 and my middle finger. Yeah. Well, I mean I've only 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.640 been pretend punching. Yeah, I try to, you know. Go, 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:18.680 I mean, just go down to the parking lot and 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.560 get a couple of swings in every once a month 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.320 or something, just to stay fresh. All right, let's get 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.480 into the research here, going back to two thousand seven, 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:31.120 UH carriers paper dealing with the legs of our early ancestors. 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.320 In particular, all his studies are really revolving around the 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:38.800 austral epits. UH. And these are creatures in the genus 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:44.920 austro Lepipocus, immediate predecessors of the human genus Homo. They 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.000 had heights around three ft nine inches for females and 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.800 four ft six inches for males, and they lived from 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.720 four million to two million years ago, And there's a 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.920 lot of information on this and like I read basically 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:02.640 the Encyclopedia Britannica entry last night about these guys, and uh, 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:04.520 there are there's a lot about them. There's a lot 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.400 of subspecies, but the basic gist that I found is 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.160 that most of the fossils for this species were found 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:14.120 in Africa. They had small canine teeth, but they had 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.520 large cheek teeth, so you can kind of imagine that 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.440 sort of I don't know, um caveman kind of look 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.640 I think would probably be appropriate. I didn't know this, 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.680 but Lucy, that famous preserved fossilized skeleton was an australopith, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.320 So that that if you've pictured that before, you've seen 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.160 that before. That's what we're talking about here. Uh and uh, 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.679 if the remains are older than six million years, they're 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:41.280 actually considered to be fossilized apes. So that I think 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:45.640 there's like an age difference there, uh between the six 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.000 million and the four million gap, But there's there's definitely 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.920 some evolution between the two. And the last thing, and 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:52.640 this is going to be important for when we're talking 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.480 about Carrier's research, is that they had these curved hands 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.679 if you can picture kind of I would imagine like 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.760 apes do today, uh, and really long toes and short thighs. 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:05.880 And this is important because we're gonna be talking about 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.160 the legs in particular right now. So okay, the assumption 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:13.560 that most anthropologists have had about australapiths up until now 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.680 is that they had short legs because they probably lived 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.439 like a treetop type culture. Their legs were used primarily 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.560 for climbing and balancing. Carrier argues, though, that he thinks 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.040 there's another reason, and this is kind of you're going 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.560 to find that with most of Carrier's research that it 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:34.520 it works like this, there's a presumption with an anthropology 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.920 he adds something onto it, and it's usually around fighting. 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:40.480 In this case, it is Uh. He says that the 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.560 reason why they have short legs is that it's advantageous 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.640 for them to be short because it gives them an 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.960 edge and grappling, which is the kind of fighting they 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.240 would probably do. Also, they have like a lower, more 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.680 stable center of gravity I'm thinking of I'm thinking of 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.240 Wolverine like in the comics, Like he's supposed to be 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.520 like short and stubby, right, and that makes him a 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:03.520 great fight the topple. Yeah, exactly. Uh. And this is 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.840 specifically uh in a in a paper that he wrote 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.800 for Evolution, which is called the Short Legs of Great 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:14.520 Apes colon Evidence for Aggressive Behavior in austro Lepith the Scenes, 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:16.480 and this came out in two thousand and seven, but 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:18.839 one of the key papers comes to us from two 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.520 thousand twelve. This is where a carrier really rolled out 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.280 the the the idea that that the the human fist 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.240 has evolved to this form because it is designed to 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:34.360 punch other humans face other and and other ancestors in 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:36.880 the pace face. So again it comes down to the 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.480 idea of the proportions of the human hand allow us 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:41.440 to make a fist that protects all those delicate bones, 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.400 muscles and ligaments during a you know, a josh shattering punch. 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.440 And again, no other primates or any animal for that matter, 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:52.480 can throw a punch. And meanwhile, our earliest ancestors may 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.440 have benefited from an evolutionary advantage and that they could 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.240 punch hard without entering Uh. These five fingered murder weapons, 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.480 so of us, your winning mates, resources, tribal honor, uh 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:08.080 and uh. In this particular study, Carrier also proved out 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.280 just the impact value of the punch, showing that the 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.000 punch is actually always better than a swap or a 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.840 chop because and it all comes down to the peak 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.720 strike force. The peak strike force is always the same 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.960 no matter what manner of handblow you're using, Okay, be 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:28.120 it a slap, a chop, a three stooges fingerpope, whatever, 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.680 whatever you're you're throwing, the peak four strike force is 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:32.920 always the same. But the fist delivers all this force 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.480 to a smaller area. So according to carry, the force 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:38.880 per area is up to three times greater with a 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.240 punch versus a good old swap. Okay. One of the 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.960 interesting things about this, this first study that he did 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.520 on fists, that I guess I didn't know even though, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.320 like I've studied anatomy for drawing purposes, especially like hand drawing. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:57.720 But male index fingers are always shorter than our ring fingers, 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.160 and that's part of being He argues that that's part 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.760 of being able to form this ideal fist, right, But 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.360 in women they're typically the same length, which I guess 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.000 I hadn't even really realized before. And maybe that's why 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.640 my drawings of women's hands have been terrible in the past. 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.520 But I mean, when I look at my hands right now, 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.040 that's certainly true. I thought of look like means you're 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.600 a wearewolf? Right, it could be that it could be 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.520 that it might be tied to the wolf, something about 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:29.360 like the different But yeah, so that's something I didn't realize. 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.520 And then so this gets into the his evolutionary argument 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.760 split along gender lines to that I guess he wasn't 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:43.080 considering Rhonda Roussi when he was thinking about fist formation. Yeah, well, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.280 that's certainly Some of the criticism that has been leveled 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.440 at him is that that this is a very male centric, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.800 or even bro centric view of human evolution. Yeah, and 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:54.720 I think that maybe this is a good time for 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.800 us to touch on I wish Joe is here because 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:05.600 he has a specific disdain for what is called bro science. Uh. Yeah. 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.200 And and in fact, when I was doing the research 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.480 for this article, I ran into a couple of quote 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.679 bro science articles. Uh. I guess the best way to 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:19.840 explain this is kind of a pseudo science repurposing scientific 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:24.760 principles to to to just like geek out about like 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.320 guy stuff like sports and fighting and and and uh 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.720 lifting weights and things like that. That's what I've seen mainly. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.800 The article that I decided that I didn't feel like 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:37.800 the science was strong enough to include it in this 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.119 episode was from a site called Boxing Science, and it 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.440 was all about the science of boxing, and I thought, oh, well, 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.720 this might be interesting and a good uh you know, 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:50.359 compliment to carriers research. And it really didn't have a 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.440 whole lot of a weight to it and wasn't wasn't 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.080 very well connected, especially in regards to anatomy. But there 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:01.560 was a lot of talk about um uh martial science 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.040 in other research, and this was academically published, so I 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.880 did think I should bring this up. There was apparently 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.600 a study published in the Journal of Cerebral Cortex, and 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:16.160 the suggestion there was that punches actually start with our 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.040 brain structure. So yeah, the fist might be important, as 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.000 Carrier argues, but brains are also really important to this. 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.800 So what they did was they did brain scans of 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.359 active martial artists versus people with similar builds but with 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.320 no martial arts training, and they looked to see if 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:38.280 there was a correlation between the karate punchers, and they 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.800 found that there was. That the people who were trained 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:46.399 punchers actually had denser white matter in the supplementary motor 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.480 cortex of their brains, and that that's a section that 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.560 controls coordination between all of our different muscle groups. Right. 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.720 So you pair this together the ideas that multiple muscle 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.240 groups working together, they are doing this thing that we 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.040 refer to as or science referred to as kinetic linking. 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.159 You see this in combat, but you also see it 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.600 in stuff like golf for baseball. Right, multiple muscles all 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:12.639 working together so that we can accomplish these these great feats. Um. 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.199 But coordination and timing are also essential to all this 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.760 as well, which is where the brain comes in. So 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.119 the idea here is really that, yes, the fist may 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.960 be important in this research came out before uh Carrier's 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.200 most recent piece on fists, so I'd be curious with 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.480 their what the what the authors of that piece would 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.119 say about carriers research how fists are connected to brains 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.800 and vice versa, and the whole body working together. There 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.760 was a lot of articles online that took this and 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.719 then extrapolated out of it like there was a nerdous 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:47.639 piece and then I think that piece was linked to 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.600 a popular mechanics piece that was all about Bruce Lee's 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:56.359 one inch punch and the like physics behind that. And 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.080 I wait, what's the deal with a one inch punch? 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.640 It's just like a specific like Bruce Lee martial arts move. 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.080 Does that mean like there's one inch between, like it's 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:06.800 just a very rapid short punch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:11.760 absolutely right. Um and if you kind of right, yeah, exactly, 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.240 you have to do that. There's good. That's the study 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:19.400 that's coming out in sixteen is the WAW contribution that 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.240 I think it's worth worth Both of these studies that 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.480 we've we've touched on here, I feel like they are 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.680 pretty solidly outside of any growth science area. But it's 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.800 it's picks it up and then runs with it and 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:34.240 starts rewriting the study and extrapolating it and uh and 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.560 and pushing a certain picture of humanity. Yeah. And even 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.720 like the press release that went out about carriers study 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:44.199 that came out just a couple what was it two 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:50.600 weeks ago? Uh stated specifically, here's our retorts to brow 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.359 science claims before before anybody even made them because they 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:56.040 knew that there was going to be there. I mean, yeah, 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.239 David Carrier is an accomplished biologist. Yeah. Absolutely, look at 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.159 picture of him. He looks like an accomplished biologist, right, 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.680 he doesn't. He's not like a CrossFit Jim who's trying 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.320 to use like a physics book to justify uh, you 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:15.600 know whatever. Alright, So two thousand fourteen, Carrier publishes a 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.320 new study and Biological Reviews and he worked with this 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:23.240 one on this one with physician Michael H. Morgan, and 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:27.679 they the key argument here is that it goes beyond fists, 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.919 that human faces also evolved to minimize injury from punches 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:36.560 of the face during fights between males. Uh, that's where 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:38.800 we tend to punch people. And I've often wondered this, 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.240 where do we Where do we first get that idea 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:46.640 about punching people in the face, Because even in children's films, 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.560 like I mentioned Jungle Book earlier, because when I let 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:51.960 my son watch it for the first time, I was 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.439 kind of a pall that all the fisticuffs. There's a 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.920 lot of punching bears, punching tigers, humans punching bears, human 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.200 bears punching human I wonder if the new c g 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.840 I version is going to have all these punching, especially 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:08.920 because they're like c G I, actual animals rather than 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.280 like a cartoon Blue the Bear. Yeah, it'll be interesting 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:13.320 to see how that goes. But but yeah, that we 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.359 just have this idea of punching and groined in us 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:22.200 early on. But yeah, and but but the face, I mean, 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.200 I guess there must be a connection there because like, 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.960 and we've talked about this on previous episodes that like, 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.760 we think of the face and the head as being 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.679 the center of identity, right at least we do in 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.359 modern culture. We've talked previously about how Egyptians did not 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:40.639 actually they thought that the heart was the center of 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:44.720