1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: In June nineteen eighty six, Newsweek magazine published this cover 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,239 Speaker 1: story that read, if you're a single woman, here are 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: your chances of getting married. The crux of the article 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: was but due to an alleged man shortage, things weren't 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: looking great for women north of thirty five, and in fact, 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: if you were a woman over the age of forty, 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: you are more likely to be killed by a terrorist 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: than to get married. The article pierced the zeitguy so 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: intensely that even seven years later, it was a plot 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: point in Nora Efron's Oscar nominated romantic comedy Sleepless in Seattle. 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: There are a lot of desperate women out there looking for. 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 3: Love, especially over a certain age. 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 4: You know what's easier to be killed by a terrorists, 14 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 4: and it is to get married over the age of forty. 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 3: That's not true. That statistic is not true. 16 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 5: That's right, it's not true, but it feels true. 17 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: The terrorism line was indeed not true, and Newsweek would 18 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: even go on to print a retraction. But nevertheless, that 19 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: urban myth endo married by forty or end up a 20 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: sad old maid. I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Bannacharam. 21 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a 22 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: cultural moment from the past that shaped us. 23 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 2: And that we just can't stop thinking about. 24 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: Today. We're talking about that sensational nineteen eighties cover story 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: from Newsweek, but we're also talking about the enduring myth 26 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: it tapped into that of the desperate single woman. 27 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 6: This is part one, So Jess. 28 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 5: We started with a clip from Sleepless in Seattle, which 29 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 5: is obviously a classic rom com and Noura Efron movie. 30 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 5: And the reason we're talking about that movie is because 31 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 5: it references this absurd claim that a woman over forty 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 5: is more likely to be killed by a terrorist than 33 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 5: to get married. So remind me, where did this idea 34 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 5: come from? 35 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 6: Right? 36 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: Okay, so it didn't come from Nora Afron, and it 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: is not true, by the way, I did. Where it 38 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: came from was this nineteen eighty six cover story in 39 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: Newsweek magazine, which was one of the most red and 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: respected magazines of its era. And that story would send 41 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: American women into a panic. 42 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 5: I mean no wonder I would feel panicked if someone 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 5: told me I was more likely to get killed than married. 44 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: Right, And so the fact that seven years later, when 45 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: this movie comes out, Meg Ryan and Rosie O'Donnell, those 46 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: are the voices you hear in the clip are still 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: talking about It. Gives you some sense of just how 48 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: firmly this idea cemented into the American psyche. 49 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, I do remember this really being part of the zeitgeist. 50 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 5: So what made you choose this moment to talk about? So? 51 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: I mean, for starters, I am a woman newly over forty, 52 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: and while I did ultimately get married, I have a 53 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: lot of complicated feelings about the subject. Yes, as do 54 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: I and also, as you know, we both have a 55 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: personal connection to Newsweek, the magazine where this story ran. 56 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: This was where I began my career. It's where you 57 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: and I would meet working a decade later, and it's 58 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: where when I did start working. Twenty years after this 59 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: story ran, people were still talking about it. Like literally 60 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: in the year two thousand and six, when I was 61 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: a junior reporter at Newsweek in one of my first jobs, 62 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: the magazine decided to write another cover story about that 63 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: now debunked cover story for the twenty geth anniversary of 64 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: the cover story. It's wild, but I think also at 65 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: its core, I'm fascinated by this story because it's a 66 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: microcosm in a lot of ways, for the way that 67 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: the media tends to take these subtle or sometimes not 68 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: so subtle jabs at women, for the way that Hollywood 69 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: and so much of our popular culture still kind of 70 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: sends us message that a single woman is something to 71 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: be afraid of or ashamed of, And ultimately for how 72 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: that silly little statistic, which was proven wrong in the 73 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, can still sometimes feel very real or like 74 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: it has resonans even four decades later. 75 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: So where should we begin in terms of breaking this down? 76 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: So I think we should start with a little context. 77 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: To understand the impact of that article, you kind of 78 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: have to understand the place that Newsweek held in the 79 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: culture in the nineteen eighties. Newsweek was one of the 80 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: classic news magazines, back when people still, you know, paged 81 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: through magazines physically, and the internet was like a dial 82 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: up modem that took twenty five minutes to connect and 83 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: got disconnected every time your mom would like pick up 84 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: the phone to cost Newsweek was in every dentist in 85 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: doctor's office. I don't know if you remember that, Yes, 86 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: I do remember that. It was like in classrooms at schools. 87 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: It was displayed on actual newsstands alongside other magazines such 88 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: as US News and World Report and BusinessWeek and Time 89 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: and all of these magazines, many of which no longer exists, 90 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: where you would eagerly go to actually see the week's headlines. 91 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 5: Actually, the crazy thing is when I went to Iran 92 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 5: for the first time, where my family is from and 93 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 5: my mom has lived until pretty recently, I remember the 94 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 5: only English language news I could find, because that was 95 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 5: pre internet, was a Newsweek magazine. 96 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 6: That's so interesting, and I mean that's the thing. It 97 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 6: held a lot of weight. 98 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: And when I was in college, and I think even 99 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: high school, working at Newsweek was my literal dream job. 100 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: Like that's where I wanted to work. I wanted to 101 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: be a journalist. And where would an aspiring, ambitious journalist 102 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: want to work, They would want to work a Newsweek magazine. 103 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 5: I mean that makes sense. I also grew up loving Newsweek. 104 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 5: I remember I used to as a very small child, 105 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 5: like eight or nine years old. I used to read 106 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 5: it to my parents' friends as a party trick. Like 107 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 5: my dad would call me out from bed and be like, 108 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 5: show everyone how you read Newsweek, and I honestly, I 109 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 5: think I just read the odds, like I didn't really 110 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 5: know what I'm reading, but I wanted to be like 111 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 5: my dad then he read the magazine, so I would 112 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 5: like flip through it and read it too great. 113 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: And so Newsweek was always and I don't know if 114 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: you'd remember this from that time. I think I only 115 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: learned it later, but it was considered to be like 116 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: the happier and more progressive of the two. And I 117 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: remember when I started there that was sort of a 118 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: point of pride. Newsweek had run a cover story about 119 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: the AIDS epidemic, long before most people had heard of it. 120 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: It was ahead of its time on subjects like gay marriage, 121 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: and so while Newsweek and Time were known for covering 122 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 1: really serious international affairs and politics obviously, they were also 123 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: known for these kind of splashy covers on social trends, 124 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: like the kind of stories that for me anyway that 125 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: I dreamed of writing and so fun fact, you might 126 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: remember this, I used to run the Newsweek tumbler. 127 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: Oh, I do remember that. 128 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: So I have this whole collection of Newsweek covers, many 129 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: of which are just incredible. I have this image of 130 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: the cover story about Anita Hill, which has this kind 131 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: of iconic image of her during those hearings, and it 132 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: says a special report on sexual harassment, and then the 133 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: headline is why women are so angry? 134 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 5: I mean, maybe they're angry because they're getting sexually harassed. 135 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 5: It seems like they answers itself. 136 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: There's also another cover I have saved. It has Sally 137 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: Ride on it with the title Space Woman, when she 138 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: became the first American woman to go into space. That 139 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: was kind of this iconic cover that I still remember. 140 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: I feel a little bit like a superhero name. So 141 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: there's that, yes completely, and then there are the more 142 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: hilarious ones. There's one that I post every June for 143 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: Pride from nineteen eighty three, with this incredible close up 144 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: image of two women against this kind of like hazy 145 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: school photo backdrop. One is wearing a velvet body suit 146 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: and the other is in pearls and a jean jacket. 147 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: The cover just says, in giant block letters, lesbians. 148 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: With an exclamation point, right, like, it. 149 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 6: Doesn't actually have it. It doesn't. 150 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: I just always refer to it as having an exclamation point, 151 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: but it's like giant block letters. And then I think 152 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: the subtitle is what are the limits of tolerance? But like, 153 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: it's just an incredible, incredible cover and says a lot 154 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: about the nineteen eighty So. 155 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 5: I guess lesbians were coming out of the closet. What 156 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 5: else was going on in the world at that time. 157 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the nineteen eighties is key here. Well, feminism 158 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: had made great strides. This is like the women's liberation 159 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: movement in the nineteen seventies was in full force. You 160 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: now have more women in the workforce. Labor participation has 161 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: risen from forty two percent in the early nineteen seventies 162 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: to nearly sixty percent by the late nineteen eighties. 163 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 6: So women are dramatically more visible. 164 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: There were all of these representations of working women, single 165 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: women in film and on television. You had examples like 166 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: Charlie's Angels. You had depictions of single working women like 167 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: Mary Tyler Moore, and you had magazines like Cosmopolitan and Glamour, 168 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: sort of the more women's magazines that were starting to 169 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: kind of elevate or talk about this single woman lifestyle. 170 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: That's funny. 171 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 5: It's like the classic image of the working mom in 172 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 5: her boxy business suit and her like white sneakers with 173 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 5: her heels and her purse, like it feels very much 174 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 5: of a certain kind of era where we started to 175 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 5: see women emerge in this very public way. 176 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 6: And on the heels of that. 177 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: This is three years after that Lesbian's cover came out. 178 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: The story about women's chances of getting married hits newstands. 179 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 5: Okay, I really want you to get into the article, 180 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 5: but can we please talk about this cover. 181 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: It's so bad. 182 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: It is hideous. It features a full page line graph 183 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: basically that looks like it was made on kind of 184 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: like a I don't know, nineteen eighties early Apple computer. 185 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: It's red, white and blue, and it has this dramatic 186 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: drop to this graph, and that is what they want 187 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: you to see. It is going down and down and 188 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: down along the headline if you're a single woman, here 189 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: are your chances of getting married. 190 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 5: It's funny because this is kind of like the original clickbait, right, 191 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 5: it's like a version of the curiosity gap. Like if 192 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 5: you're a woman and you're seeing this cover, you're gonna 193 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 5: definitely pick it up. If you're worried in some way, 194 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 5: you have some anxiety around getting married, and then you're 195 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 5: going to be horrified by the answer, Like it's very 196 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 5: clear the answer is not good. 197 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 2: If marriage is in your. 198 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: Sights, yes, yes, it's like your odds of finding love 199 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: are in free fall, and thus, due to the conventional 200 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: wisdom of the nineteen eighties, your life is in free fall. 201 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 5: Well, also, it's just this idea that like, if marriage 202 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 5: is the goal, if you're forty already, there's no recourse. 203 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 5: It's not like they're saying there's something you could do differently. 204 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 5: So it's just like, all right, pack it in, ladies, 205 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,359 Speaker 5: you're gonna have to go home without. 206 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 6: A mate, right, And that's exactly what the article did. 207 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: It made women seem helpless and the prospect of finding 208 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: a mate hopeless. 209 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 6: So the article. 210 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: Itself opens with a woman who can't stop hearing about 211 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: this so called man shortage, Like her mom is calling 212 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: her to warn her about it, her sisters are all 213 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: talking about it. It's on the news. 214 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 5: I mean, can you just imagine how many women got 215 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 5: calls from their mom about this? 216 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 2: Like so many? 217 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: And it goes on to explain that there was this 218 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: study out of Harvard and Yale, So of course this 219 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: sounds very formal. These are great institutions that quote confirmed 220 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: what everybody suspected all along that many women who seem 221 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: to have it all, good looks, good jobs, advanced degrees, 222 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: and high salaries will never have mates period. End quote. 223 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 5: The whole horror I mean, first of all, is it 224 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 5: that they will never have mates or they will never 225 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 5: have male mates, because it really does seem to be 226 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 5: focused on men. 227 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 2: So their lesbian cover must not have come soon enough. 228 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 6: Oh my god, exactly. 229 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: And in fact, there are multiple headlines for this story, 230 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: but the headline once you open it up and are 231 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: reading it in the middle of the magazine is is 232 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: it too late for prince Charming? So clearly we're talking 233 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: about princes here now. The article itself was written by 234 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: four women and two men, some of whom were still 235 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: at Newsweek when I was there two decades later, and 236 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: as we have mentioned, it was based on data from 237 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: a Yale and Harvard study which made basically everyone believed. 238 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: It that automatically gives it a sense of credibility. 239 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: And this is how the data was presented that if 240 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: you were a white college educated woman over thirty, you 241 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: had a twenty percent chance of ever getting married for 242 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: the rest of your life. By age thirty five, your 243 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: odds would drop to five percent and by forty and 244 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: this is where the famous infamous line comes in. A 245 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: woman is quote more likely to be killed by a 246 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: terrorist than to get married, with her chances of marriage 247 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: for the rest of her life at two point six percent. 248 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 5: Okay, I have so many questions about this because I 249 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 5: just don't believe there was ever a time in this 250 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 5: country where the likelihood of getting killed by a terrorist 251 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 5: was at two point six percent. 252 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 2: Like, that can't be correct. 253 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: No, totally, And you're right it wasn't. It would turn 254 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: out that this line was meant to be taken humorously, 255 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: I guess, and to be totally hyperbolic. But like, of course, 256 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: why would anybody think that coming from this serious, well 257 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: respected news magazine that had six reporters reporting this. 258 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's interesting because I feel like at that time, 259 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 5: especially in the eighties, there was more airplane hijacking, so 260 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 5: I guess most people would have been thinking about that 261 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 5: versus what we think about now, which is nine to eleven. 262 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 5: But back then, I guess the fear of being hijacked 263 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 5: was a much more common fear that people had. 264 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 6: Yeah. 265 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And like you said, I don't think you'd ever 266 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: use that phrasing today, But I think the article was 267 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: tapping into not only that terrorism anxiety, but this other 268 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: anxiety that was bubbling up at the time about women's 269 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: place in the world. 270 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 5: So, Okay, more women are working, but what's going on 271 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 5: in their personal lives? Like, I feel like the eighties 272 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 5: was still very much a classic hetero family vibe. 273 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, like the nuclear family was still intact, but 274 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 1: it's also shifting. So in nineteen eighty six, when the 275 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: Newsweek article comes out, less people are getting married, more 276 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: people are divorcing. That's becoming more common, and those who 277 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: still are getting married are doing so at a later 278 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: age than before. 279 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 5: So that's a good thing though, right, because doesn't research 280 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 5: show that every year you wait to get married, the 281 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 5: chances of divorce drop. 282 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: Yep, it does, which is why getting married later is 283 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: actually better. And the other thing is, you know, women 284 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: had more freedom at this time when it came to relationships, 285 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: Like this was post birth control pill, it was post 286 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: sexual revolution. Women were in various jobs pushing against traditional expectations. 287 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, all of this sounds like good news 288 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: to me, but. 289 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: I mean yes and no, like good for women. But 290 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: the thing was society was getting uncomfortable. 291 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 5: With, right, So I guess people are questioning whether or 292 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 5: not having more women in the workforce is a good thing, 293 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 5: or does it come at the expense of a nuclear family? 294 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 5: Like I guess it really fundamentally gets back to that 295 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 5: thing we always talk about, which is like, can women 296 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 5: ever quote unquote have it all? 297 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 6: A few more lines from the article that I must note. 298 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: It talks about a major shift for the institution of 299 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: marriage like yes, true. It noted that many women no 300 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: longer need husbands for economic security also true, and that 301 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: they no longer need them for sex. Lol. It also 302 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: mentioned women in their thirties quote facing biologies ticking clock, 303 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: which side note we will discuss in a future episode 304 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: of this podcast. 305 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 5: I'm just really trying to figure out how they decided 306 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 5: women didn't need men anymore for sex? Is that because 307 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 5: like a vibrator? Like it's such a weird thing to 308 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 5: put in a magazine. 309 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I mean this is after the sexual revolution. 310 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: I think the point is that you didn't need to 311 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: marry for sex. You could have sex before. 312 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: Mary, so you could just have sex freely without You. 313 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: Didn't need a husband for sex, not you didn't need 314 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: men for sense though maybe you all so you also 315 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: didn't need men for sex, But I don't know that 316 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: they had discovered. 317 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 5: That at that point. It sounds like they discovered masturbation honestly. 318 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: Well, and maybe that is also true to some extent, 319 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: like I think masturbation was being normalized in the sexual revolution, YadA, 320 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: yah YadA. So also there's this funny quote from a 321 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: New York therapist who says that everybody was talking about 322 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: it and everybody was hysterical. But of course, like then, 323 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: quoting this therapist in this article makes everyone all the 324 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: more hysterical because they are making it such a bag. 325 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 5: I mean, you really can picture this, right, like all 326 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 5: these women going to their therapists, that's sitting in the 327 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 5: therapist's office, sniffling with a tissue, like I'm never gonna 328 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 5: meet someone to marry. Like it's such a funny quote, 329 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 5: but it really does. It evokes a thing that must 330 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 5: really have happened. 331 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: So I actually called up Egene Carroll, who, as you 332 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: probably know, is the woman who successfully sued Donald Trump 333 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: for sexual assault, which was a case I covered. But 334 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: I remembered as I was working on this research that 335 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: she had been dispensing romantic advice at the time this 336 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: article came out. 337 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 5: I loved ask Egene. She was the longtime advice columnist 338 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 5: for Elle magazine. 339 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: I read it. 340 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 6: Religiously, and she wrote that column for thirty years. 341 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: And when I spoke to her, she told me that 342 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: even years later, women were writing her letters about that 343 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: newsweek line. 344 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 7: It had been seared into the brains of what am 345 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 7: I about women's brains? It had been branded on the 346 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 7: uteruses of every single woman from sea to shining Sea. 347 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 6: By the way, Egen Carroll was forty two at the 348 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 6: time this story ran. 349 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 7: Oh, Jessica, I can remember where I was. Where I 350 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 7: was when this Newsweek's story hit. I remember I was 351 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 7: with my friend Barbara Shaler. Now that name rings a 352 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 7: bell with you, because she was one of the twentieth 353 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 7: centuries most devastatingly beautiful and charming women. Barbara Shaler was 354 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 7: one of the great leaders in the labor movement in 355 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 7: this country and fought day and night for women to 356 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 7: receive equal pay among machinists. Even Barbara Shaleer was worried 357 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 7: about getting married. Here's the thing I think, Candace Bushnell said, 358 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 7: it struck terror in the hearts of women. Of course, 359 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 7: I never disagree with Candis, because she's always right about everything. 360 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 7: I think what it did was this struck women dumb. 361 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 7: It took us decades to figure out that the thing 362 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 7: was a lie and that it was stupid, and that 363 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 7: why would you worry about getting married anyway? Your whole 364 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 7: life can't be rapped around a man. And also it 365 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 7: didn't occur to anybody that, of course, you could marry 366 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 7: a woman if you wanted. 367 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 5: Okay, So even smart, cluding successful women like Egen Carroll 368 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 5: are shocked but also shaken by this article and study. 369 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 5: I can imagine, knowing what I do about the media, 370 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 5: that this was probably kind of a feeding frenzy, right. 371 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 6: Oh. Absolutely. 372 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: And to be clear, while Newsweek did invent that terrorism line, 373 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: they were not the first or the last to cover 374 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: this study itself. Like Phil Donahue, who hosted a popular 375 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: daytime talk show at that time, had done a whole 376 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: segment on it before Newsweek. People magazine had put a 377 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: giant photo of your former boss Susie Award winning broadcaster 378 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: host Diane Sawyer, along with three other famous women of 379 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: that era, with the headline got this are these women 380 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: old maids question. 381 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 5: Mark wild I mean, and also the subhead is a 382 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 5: Harvard Yale study says that most single women over thirty 383 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 5: five can forget about marriage, which I have to tell 384 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 5: you as someone who worked for Diane Sawyer, she is 385 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 5: like a very attractive woman. I mean, she's an attractive person, 386 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 5: and I don't think her chances of getting married wherever 387 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 5: a real problem. But also nineteen eighty six is literally 388 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 5: the year she met Mike Nichols, who would go on 389 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 5: to be her husband. Mike Nichols was one of the 390 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 5: best filmmakers of our time. He made the graduate like 391 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 5: Diane Sawyer was fine. 392 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 6: You know. 393 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: In the immediate weeks and months following that Newsweek story, 394 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: this story was really everywhere, Like it wasn't just People magazine, 395 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: it was ABC, it was CBS, and even two years later, 396 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: like this is pretty remarkable. It was a subject of 397 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: a special report on PBS like the Nightly News, Yeah, 398 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: which called the study the quote Infamous. 399 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 8: Spinster Reports, otherwise known as the Yale Harvard Study of 400 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 8: Marriage Patterns in the United States. It showed that the 401 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 8: odds of a college educated woman over thirty five getting 402 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 8: married were about the same as being kidnapped by Martians. Suddenly, 403 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 8: the women of the post war generation were thrown into 404 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 8: a panic. They'd always intended to marry to have a family, 405 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 8: but they wanted to develop their own identities first, to 406 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 8: avoid all the traps that had ensnared all those millions 407 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 8: of smart women who loved men who hated them for 408 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 8: loving them too much. But now the game was over 409 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 8: and they'd lost. 410 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 5: The whole thing is amazing and just feels so eighties, 411 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 5: But the writing is also just so crazy to me. 412 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 5: To be clear, here, your odds of getting kidnapped by 413 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 5: martians are zero, So she's basically. 414 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 2: Just saying, ladies, you're out of luck. 415 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 5: Time to like put on your spincer outfits and go 416 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 5: like knit in your living room or something. 417 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: With your cats, with your cats, Yes, your cats. 418 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 5: So we're talking about this wild cover story from the eighties. 419 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 5: The newsweek ran about women being very unlikely to get 420 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 5: married if they're not married by the time they're forty. 421 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 5: It sounds like the media really ate up the story. 422 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 5: But was there pushback? 423 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: Were there people who were saying, like this is crazy 424 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 2: even at the time. 425 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 1: Yes, there was a great deal of pushback, and memorably 426 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: one of the greatest bits of pushback came from Susan Feludi. 427 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: Now Susan Faludi, I think you probably have read her book, 428 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: her nineteen ninety one blockbuster bestseller, Backlash. It's a feminist classic. 429 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: But at the time, she was twenty seven years old 430 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: and a reporter at the San Jose Mercury News, and 431 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: she criticized this article. She was one of the first 432 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: earliest and harshest critics of it. And it was actually 433 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: this article that would inspire her to write that book. 434 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember reading Backlash at Barnard. It was 435 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: a huge book. And what she would do is she 436 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: dug into the study itself and really damned its methodology. 437 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: She argued that it was flawed, that it was used 438 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: to beat women over the head for having pursued education 439 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 1: and jobs. And her broader argument was basically about how 440 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: women face these competing narratives, like essentially, on the one hand, 441 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: during this time, women were being told they could have 442 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: it all. They were being told they'd made it, that 443 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: the fight for equality had been won, and that, you know, 444 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: like they were so equal they didn't even need additional rights. 445 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: But at the same time they're being depicted by pop 446 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: culture and the news media as like hysterical, melting down, depressed, 447 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: learned out, it's desperate to be married and unfortunately facing 448 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 1: an infertility epidemic and a man shortage on top of 449 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: everything else. 450 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 5: I mean, honestly, it feels like for women in this 451 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 5: era and maybe in every air, it's sort of like 452 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 5: you're if you do and you're damned if you're done. 453 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 5: Like you have to pursue a career, but you also 454 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 5: have to find a way to get married, Like there's 455 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 5: no breaks here. 456 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: And you know, here's the thing that terrorism line, the 457 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 1: core message that educated, career focused women risk spending their 458 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: lives alone. It stuck starting in nineteen eighty nine. It 459 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: is mentioned in When Harry Met Sally. This is also 460 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: a Nora Efron film. This stars Meg Ryan and you 461 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: may remember, if you've seen this, the part where she's 462 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: weeping to Billie Crystal about her ex who didn't want 463 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: to marry her. 464 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 9: So I drove them away and I'm gonna be forty 465 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 9: when someday, someday, like in eight years, it's so crazy. 466 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: Right, So again, like that looming dead end, terrifying number 467 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: of forty. So that's when Harry met Sally. But then 468 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: four years later you have Sleepless in Seattle. This is 469 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and in Sleepless the line is not 470 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: mentioned only once, but actually twice. First in the scene 471 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: we Heard at the Top, which is also Meg Ryan, 472 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: she was in everything in that era, and she's playing 473 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: a journalist who's talking with her editor played by Rosi o'donald, 474 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: about basically what story she should do next. 475 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember this because they're basically talking about this 476 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 5: sad widower whose son has called into a radio show 477 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 5: saying he needs a new wife, and thousands of women 478 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 5: have called into volunteer. 479 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 6: Yes, exactly. 480 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: And then one of Megryan and Rosie o'donald's colleagues jumps 481 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: in to say, there are a lot of. 482 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 4: Desperate women out there looking for love, especially over a 483 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 4: certain age. You know what's easy to be killed by terrorists, 484 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 4: and it is to get married over the age of forty. 485 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 3: That's not true. That statistic is not true. 486 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: That's right, it's not true, but it feels true. 487 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: It feels true because it is true. Phrayctically, a whole 488 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 3: book about how that statistic is not true. Comtown. 489 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: You brought it up, and so then later in the movie, 490 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: this comes up again. This time Tom Hanks is at 491 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: home in Seattle having dinner with his sister and her husband, 492 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: and they're talking about all the women who called into 493 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: that show, and the husband is sort of adamant that 494 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: those women must be absolutely desperate. 495 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 3: Just because someone is looking for a nice guy, it 496 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 3: doesn't leave them desperate. How about rapacious and love star. 497 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 4: No, it is easier to be killed by a terrorist 498 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 4: than to find a husband after they. 499 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 6: Kids were absolutely untrue Nofron. 500 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: She's clearly doing something, you know, like she's read Flutie. 501 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: She's not just recurgitating that line, like she's debunking it 502 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: again and again. And it's worth noting this is a 503 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: bit of a deep cut that Nora Afron actually began 504 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: her career at Newsweek. She was a male girl in 505 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, but then smartly and quickly quit when 506 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: she learned that women at the time were not allowed 507 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: to be writers. 508 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 5: In Okay, I don't want to get off track, because 509 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 5: obviously this is something you've told me before, but I 510 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 5: feel like you have to explain that women weren't allowed 511 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 5: to be writers and news Week in the. 512 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 6: Great Yes, I mean, how much time do you have? 513 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 6: But TLDR. 514 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: Up until the nineteen seventies, women were told when they 515 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: started working at Newsweek that they could, you know, be 516 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: a male girl. They could be a researcher, they could 517 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: be reporter, but they could not have buy lines because 518 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,959 Speaker 1: women were not writers at Newsweek. This would lead to 519 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: a landmark gender discrimination suit in the nineteen seventies by 520 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: the women who worked at Newsweek against the magazine. This 521 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: would go on to spark all sorts of similar lawsuits. 522 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: It's like, basically changed the way journalism was done. This 523 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: probably paved the way for us as writers and editor. 524 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 2: That's such an interesting detail. 525 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 5: But we know she's right because now we've established that 526 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 5: it was wrong. Like a million Times news We did 527 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 5: eventually retract this article. 528 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 1: Right, yes, twenty years later, and so, I mean, there's 529 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: a few things to note. But the first one is 530 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: that the study as it was published in the article 531 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: was not actually a published study. It was a working paper, 532 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: which yes, sometimes reporters will report on working papers, but 533 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: that basically means a paper from an academic institution that's 534 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: in its early stages. It had not yet been put 535 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: out in a peer revered journal. 536 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 2: I mean that does seem like a very significant detail. 537 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 6: Totally significant. 538 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: And also by the time the study was in fact 539 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: completed and published in an academic journal, it would ultimately 540 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: become two studies. The first one about black women's marriage rates, 541 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: which were an are much lower than white women, and 542 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: this was mentioned in the music article, but like almost 543 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: as a passing aside. 544 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 6: And then the second. 545 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: Study was about educated white women, which is what that 546 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: terrorism line is actually referring to, and which is what 547 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: became the focus of the article. 548 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: Did the data hold up? Was it actually true? 549 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: The data did not hold up. The problem was that 550 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: they were looking at forty year olds and making predictions 551 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,959 Speaker 1: for twenty year olds at a time when there were 552 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: huge shifts in marital attitudes and behavior. So as a result, 553 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: the statistics would later be challenged by a separate demographer 554 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: in the US Census, we wrote, who would ultimately calculate 555 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: that thirty year olds actually had a much higher likelihood 556 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 1: of marrying, and for forty years it was not two 557 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: point six percent, it was seventeen to twenty three percent. 558 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 5: Well, you know what's funny is I actually read the 559 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 5: retraction and didn't The majority of the women who were 560 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 5: featured in the original story end up getting married like 561 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 5: eighty percent. 562 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: Of course they did. 563 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 2: Of course they did, so silly, And then how did 564 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 2: the terrorism line get in? 565 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: So that's the other part of this. The way that 566 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: this often worked in news magazines is at that time 567 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: is that you would have multiple reporters working on a 568 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: single story. This was like before the Internet. So you 569 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: would have someone in San Francisco, you would have someone 570 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, you'd have someone in Chicago. They would 571 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: all be interviewing women about this story. And then because 572 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: you weren't emailing and everything wasn't digital, you weren't slacking, 573 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: you would like pick up the phone and you would. 574 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: Just call fax it. 575 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you could fax them. Then they probably were sometimes, 576 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: but you had these people called I think they were 577 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: called shepherds at the time. We still had them when 578 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: I began at Newsweek, and their job was to basically 579 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: like pick up the phone when a correspondent would call 580 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: from some faraway place and type down their notes, which 581 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: they would live read to you, and then you would 582 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: give those notes to whomever the assigned person was in 583 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: New York who was going to take everything and write 584 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: up the article. So what was then revealed was that 585 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: the terrorism line was basically like a funny aside written 586 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: down by one of the handful of reporters who worked 587 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: on the story, and it was sent in some sort 588 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: of memo from the Newsweek San Francisco bureau to the 589 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: main office in New York, and the writer in New 590 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: York inserted the line to the story. 591 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: So it was meant to be funny. 592 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: What they said in the retraction article was that, yes, 593 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: they thought it was funny, and they thought it would 594 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: be clear that it was hyperbole. It wasn't intended to 595 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: be taken literally, but like, obviously it was taken literally. 596 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 5: Well, so this actually explains why they don't cite any 597 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 5: data on how likely you are to be killed by 598 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 5: a terrorist, because they thought it was very obvious that 599 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 5: it wasn't real data. 600 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: That's fascinating. 601 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 5: So, just to recap what you've just told me is 602 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 5: that Newsweek had concocted this sensational line and the data 603 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 5: behind it. 604 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: Was also flawed. 605 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 6: Yes, multiple problems with this start. 606 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: It's a good thing they issued a retraction. 607 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, except like, who remembers any of this? 608 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: The point is this thing stuck in the zeitgeist. That 609 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: original flawed statistic and the line about terrorism stuck in 610 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: the zeitgeist. It stayed there. 611 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 6: It was repeated again and again and again. 612 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: And nobody remembers any of these details, except for, of course, 613 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: the smart people who will be listening to our podcast. 614 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 5: So what's wild about this is that I actually was 615 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 5: watching something recently, this show on Netflix called Firefly Lane, 616 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 5: which is cheesy, but I watch and they did a 617 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 5: whole episode about this newsweek cover. One of the characters, Yeah, 618 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 5: one of the characters is an anchor, is a local 619 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 5: news anchor, and she needs the nightly news with this statistic. 620 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 5: And then someone else on the staff, an older woman, 621 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 5: challenges her, and so throughout the episode she realizes that 622 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 5: in fact, the statistic isn't true. But the idea that 623 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 5: this stuck with people for so long that a writer 624 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 5: on this show that just got made last year remembered 625 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 5: it is fascinating. 626 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 6: It's fascinating and it's telling. 627 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of what it's showing us 628 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: is that as silly as some of these moments seem now, 629 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: or as much as they feel like a blip from 630 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, they're teaching us something really important. 631 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, really about the time we grew up in. 632 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: I mean with this story in particular, as I was 633 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: doing the research, I started to realize, like, this wasn't 634 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: even really about marriageable women or quote unquote man shortage 635 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: or an age of expiration, or even like about undermining 636 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: magazine articles or sexist editors. This was about women's place 637 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: in the world more broadly. 638 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: Right, it was about putting them in their place exactly. 639 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: And I think to understand that you have to look 640 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: at what was happening in the nineteen eighties, and what 641 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: was happening in the nineteen eighties is the ton of 642 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: pushback to all of these societal gains. So you can 643 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: see it and hear it in this time a lot 644 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: in the way conservative leaders talked about feminism and working women. 645 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: This was, of course the Reagan era, so Ronald Reagan 646 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: who had proclaimed feminism of quote straight jacket for women. 647 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: He also introduced the term welfare queen as part of 648 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: efforts to demonize poor black single mothers. And so you know, 649 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 1: while Americans are like navigating the consequences of the baby boom, 650 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: women's liberation, sexual revolution, Reagan is basically reeling against feminism 651 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: and so when this Newsweek article comes out in nineteen 652 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: eighty six, there are some feminists and people at large 653 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: who see it as part of this backlash. Like taken 654 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: within the context of all of these other things, it 655 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: was part of this conservative push against progress. So I 656 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: actually called up Susan Douglas. She is a professor of 657 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: communication and media studies at the University of Michigan. She 658 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 1: studies this subject. She looks at gender representation in media. 659 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: But she also happened to be thirty six at the 660 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: time that this article came out and recently married, So 661 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: lucky for her, she didn't have to panic. 662 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 10: You know, no advance in feminism occurs without an almost 663 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 10: instantaneous backlash against it. By the nineteen eighties, you had 664 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 10: more women in the workforce than ever before. You had 665 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 10: women postponing marriage and childbirths because they wanted to get 666 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 10: established in their careers. And this was a threat to 667 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 10: the patriarchal order. And so you get this ridiculous story, 668 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 10: you know, terrorizing women who if they're thirty two and 669 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 10: they're not married, you know they are doomed to a 670 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 10: life of loneliness. Let's also remember between nineteen seventy five 671 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 10: and nineteen eighty five, you had a revolution in single 672 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 10: mothers entering the workforce. They entered the workforce because feminism 673 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 10: had give them a permission to do so. And they 674 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,719 Speaker 10: entered the workforce because they had to, because they had 675 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 10: to support their families and they wanted to work. And 676 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 10: you know, they did this in the face of nonexistent 677 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 10: or utterly crappy childcare, against all kinds of prejudice. They 678 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 10: transformed the American family. And so some of this threat 679 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 10: was not just for women who were never married. This 680 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 10: was also oh so you divorced your husband because you, 681 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 10: a liberated woman, thought that you were unhappy. Well, too 682 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 10: bad for you. Good luck finding number two. No advance 683 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 10: in feminism occurs without an almost instantaneous against it. 684 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: That's Susan Douglas Again. It's interesting to hear her talk 685 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: about what was happening politically in the eighties as women 686 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: are gaining more power at work and then knowing that 687 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: this newsweek cover lands right in the middle. 688 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: Of it, right like a ton of bricks. 689 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: You know. So you can look at these things as isolated, 690 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: or you can, as Feluti did, see them as interconnected. 691 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: You can kind of draw this straight line from that 692 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: article and the so called man shortage to what you're 693 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: seeing in the culture around that time. Susan Fludi talks 694 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: in her book Backlash about how in film and television 695 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: we begin to see this shift away from characters that 696 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: are like scrappy working heroines towards these sort of you know, 697 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: sad sacks desperate to get married, like she cites Sally 698 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: Field in the movie Surrender. 699 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 4: You know what, if I'm not married again by the 700 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 4: time I'm forty one, there's a twenty seven percent chance 701 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 4: I'll end up a lonely alcoholic. 702 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: But I'm even thinking of later like the Bridget Jones types. 703 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have two choices to give up and accept 704 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 3: permanent state of spinsterhood or not. This time, I choose not. 705 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: And then if they aren't sad sacks desperate to get married, 706 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: these once independent women are depicted as like straight up murderous, 707 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: bunny boiling sociopaths. Of course, I'm referring to Glenn Close's 708 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: character in Fatal Attraction. 709 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 3: I'm just supposed to you won't answer my calls, you 710 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 3: change your number. 711 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 6: I I'm not going to be ignored. 712 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 5: Right, Like, it's not enough that the women are pathetic, 713 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 5: their career ambitions have to actually turn them into like 714 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 5: dangerous and deranged characters. 715 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, so basically, this myth, this lie about these like desperate, 716 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: sad single women, has become accepted truth in the culture. 717 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 2: It definitely does. 718 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 5: And you kind of still see that myth, right, this 719 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 5: kind of desperate single woman playing it on TV. I 720 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 5: mean it makes me think of The Bachelor, right, which 721 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 5: has been running on ABC for like twenty years, in 722 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 5: which I occasionally still watch, And the whole premise of 723 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 5: that show is that it's this group of women who 724 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 5: are pretty young, like in their early twenties, and they're 725 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 5: so desperate to get married and have the approval of 726 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 5: a man, and god forbid. Occasionally there's one who's like 727 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 5: in her thirties and they're so mean to her, like, uh, 728 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 5: you're the worst. You're so old and desperate. What are 729 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 5: you even doing here? So, like, I don't know how 730 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 5: much progress we have made. It's hard to say. 731 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 6: I mean I think we've made some. 732 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: Like The Bachelor is a certain kind of televisionhow. 733 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: Do you mean, like super trashy? 734 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 1: Because I love it? Like that said, like, I'm still 735 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: sitting here trying to rack my brain for an example 736 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: of a show that doesn't end in a relationship. I mean, honestly, like, 737 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: if those listening can think of anything, feel free to 738 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: send us your thoughts. 739 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 6: But okay, Susie, I feel like we need to pause. 740 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: For a moment and spend a little time talking about us. Okay, 741 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 1: because I couldn't help. But wonder are we desperate single women? 742 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 2: Good Carrie Bradshaw reference. 743 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I've in practicing, but I think 744 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: this is actually a good spot to pause for our listeners. 745 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: Before you know, we get real personal. So we'll pick 746 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: this up again with my bad Carrie Bradshaw impression. But 747 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: also both of our views are complicated views on marriage. 748 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 2: In part two, this is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 749 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 5: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about 750 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 5: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email 751 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 5: us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find us 752 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 5: on Instagram at in retropod. 753 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 754 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 755 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 756 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete. 757 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 5: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 758 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 5: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 759 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 5: Feminist Fight Club and This Is Eighteen. 760 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 761 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 762 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and 763 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:14,720 Speaker 1: associate producer. 764 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 5: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 765 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 5: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 766 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagrams. 767 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 5: Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Coscarelli. Sound 768 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 5: correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. 769 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 2: We are your hosts Susie Vannacarum. 770 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 6: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. 771 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: For even more check out in retropod dot com. 772 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 6: See you next week.