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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday, Holly Fry

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Speaker 1: and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So we talked about the

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Speaker 1: Red Path murders for Halloween. Uh. This is an interesting

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Speaker 1: one because it really becomes so much more about like

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Speaker 1: the psychology of a family and what was going on there,

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Speaker 1: and also is a good example of how when information

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Speaker 1: is withheld, people just make up their own versions. Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really feels like a bunch of wealthy people kind

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Speaker 1: of closed ranks, um, so that we'll never really know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I presume if they did that, it was

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Speaker 1: out of some embarrassment or desire to, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: hide what was really going on. It's interesting because, um,

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Speaker 1: of course, Amy is kind of the lynchpin in the

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Speaker 1: whole thing and how it got presented publicly, and her

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Speaker 1: diaries have a lot of information about her day to

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Speaker 1: day doings, but she really doesn't include personal reflections in them,

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Speaker 1: so we don't have a great sense of like her

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Speaker 1: personal thoughts on any of it. If she did write

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Speaker 1: any such things, they are gone. She does seem to

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Speaker 1: have been very invested in making sure that Cliff's name

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Speaker 1: was in good standing going forward. Like part of what

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Speaker 1: she did with the family money was established a library

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Speaker 1: fund at McGill and her brother's Peter's and Cliff's name

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Speaker 1: that was quite substantial. She did not do the same

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Speaker 1: for her mother. She also had the gates that you

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Speaker 1: would go through when you enter McGill University she had built.

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Speaker 1: Those are dedicated to her husband, um Dr Roddick after

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Speaker 1: he had passed. But there is also this whole thing

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Speaker 1: that some historians have read into Amy story or interpreted

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Speaker 1: Amy story to speculate about the possibility that she may

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Speaker 1: have actually been whether or not in a Roman, in

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Speaker 1: a relationship or not, but romantically fixated on Rose Swallow,

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Speaker 1: who worked in the home. She did make some very

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Speaker 1: unique and special arrangements for Rose in her will. It

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Speaker 1: was one of those things where it was like a

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Speaker 1: woman like Rose, it seemed weird for her to stay

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Speaker 1: in the position she stayed in as long as she did.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't really like growth. There was. The two of

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Speaker 1: them traveled together a lot, so there's been speculation that

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Speaker 1: they may have been a couple, or they may have

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Speaker 1: just been best friends. We don't know, but again it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things that like, because all real information

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Speaker 1: has been shut down. And granted, that's the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that would have been the case anyway, right right

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Speaker 1: for the early d It's not like she would go

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Speaker 1: and I'm in love with our maid. Um, nobody was

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Speaker 1: going to say that, right, But it's it's yet another

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Speaker 1: piece of this puzzle where people are like, what was

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Speaker 1: going on in that house? They surely didn't want anybody

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Speaker 1: to know. And the other thing that makes this tricky,

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Speaker 1: and it came up in some of the research I

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Speaker 1: was reading, was that because of the families reticence to speak,

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Speaker 1: what we really have are those fast and furious news

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Speaker 1: reports that were coming out and that's it. And so

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Speaker 1: you kind of have to sift through them and do

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Speaker 1: like a pattern recognition practice and be like, Okay, well

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Speaker 1: they all do say this in the immediate aftermath. So

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Speaker 1: she was like, that might be accurate. They don't all

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Speaker 1: agree on this, so we have to discount that across

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Speaker 1: the board. Like there, it becomes very very hard to

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Speaker 1: actually make any sort of coagent picture out of what's

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Speaker 1: going on. I'm forever, forever fascinated. Uh. We said we

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Speaker 1: were going to talk about the house, and here's why

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Speaker 1: there is another house almost always called the Red Path Mansion,

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Speaker 1: and it comes up in articles about this, even in

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Speaker 1: like news stories. That is not the same house as

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Speaker 1: far as I can tell. As we said, the red

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Speaker 1: Paths very wealthy. They established a lot of that area

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Speaker 1: and they continued to live in that area for a while,

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Speaker 1: so many of them had houses built, so there's more

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Speaker 1: than one Red Path mitch Um. The house that they

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Speaker 1: lived in when this happened was designed by an architect

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Speaker 1: named John James Brown in eighteen seventy, the year they

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Speaker 1: bought it. It was a new house. And you mentioned

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Speaker 1: that when you're looking for show art, you saw a

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Speaker 1: lot of pictures of houses that look very much the same,

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Speaker 1: and that's because he designed a lot of houses for

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Speaker 1: the square mile that we're all very similar in appearance.

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Speaker 1: So that's one thing that goes on. But there is

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Speaker 1: a whole other thing that actually got a good bit

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Speaker 1: of media coverage, which is a Red Path mansion that

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Speaker 1: was designed by Sir Andrew Taylor in six and that

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Speaker 1: house was demolished in after a very long struggle over

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Speaker 1: whether or not it should be considered a historic property

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Speaker 1: and restored. Part of it was demolished I think in

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Speaker 1: the eighties, and then the demolition was stopped through like

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Speaker 1: some sort of municipal action, and then it kind of

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Speaker 1: stood there in disrepair. I mean, I understand how they

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Speaker 1: get confused, because one, the neighborhood is obviously changed and

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Speaker 1: layout a great deal over time, and the way one

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Speaker 1: particular picture I kept seeing of it looks it looks

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Speaker 1: almost similar to like if you were looking at the

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Speaker 1: mansion where this murder suicide happened from the back angle,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm like, oh, I could see where that might

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Speaker 1: be the same house. But then the architects are listed

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Speaker 1: as different and they are sixteen years apart in their construction,

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Speaker 1: which just makes it very confusing. But even people who

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Speaker 1: this is part of the problem that we're still feeling

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Speaker 1: from the family's closedness regarding information, even people who were

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Speaker 1: studying that newer house get it confused with the Red

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Speaker 1: Path murders because there is that weird, kind of just

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Speaker 1: quiet black hole of whats going on. And what's really

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Speaker 1: really interesting is that there are a lot of discussions

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Speaker 1: of that house, that historical home that was destroyed in

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Speaker 1: that don't mention the murders at all. So people are

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Speaker 1: just kind of connecting the dots because it's a well

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Speaker 1: known name, and that is a mansion, and these happened

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Speaker 1: in a mansion, and they're often called the Red Path

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Speaker 1: mansion murders. And so I think there's some some things

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Speaker 1: are getting conflated, and it makes it that much more

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Speaker 1: tricky to sort the whole thing out. Hopefully, I sent

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Speaker 1: you a pick or of the right How you did,

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Speaker 1: I looked great that it took me a really long

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Speaker 1: time to find that particular one that does not surprised

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Speaker 1: me even a small amount. I found a lot of

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Speaker 1: other pictures that I'm pretty sure are the same house

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Speaker 1: as I sent you from a slightly different angle, but

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Speaker 1: I also found a bunch of houses that were not.

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Speaker 1: It's a totally different house. So yeah, we already talked

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Speaker 1: about how a lot of the language that was used

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Speaker 1: in the articles um is not great language about chronic illness. Also,

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Speaker 1: just generally seizures can be really scary to witness and experience,

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Speaker 1: but they don't generally make people violent. So the idea

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Speaker 1: that like, he had a seizure and and murdered his mother,

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Speaker 1: like that's just well, there's also this secondary thing right

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Speaker 1: where and I am obviously not a doctor, but I

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Speaker 1: did do some research on epilepsy and thinking about this

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Speaker 1: um and watched a couple of lectures from doctors, like

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Speaker 1: there are instances where epilepsy can present not as a

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Speaker 1: seizure but as like seeming big changes in personality or mood.

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Speaker 1: And so the thing that gets me though, is that

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Speaker 1: if that was what they're trying to push this idea

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Speaker 1: toward the doctors that testified, and I kind of have

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Speaker 1: to use air quotes because they did testify, but I'm

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Speaker 1: not convinced that wasn't all a story they agreed on

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Speaker 1: before they got in front of the corner store. Um,

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Speaker 1: if that was the idea they were trying to push,

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Speaker 1: then the introduction of and he appeared to have been

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Speaker 1: foaming at the mouth, that is more in line with

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Speaker 1: a seizure, which would not really be the like you

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Speaker 1: cannot really make those two things mesh in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: The other thing is that the idea that one of

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Speaker 1: the house staff had held the two revolvers and then

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Speaker 1: had shown them that they had been discharged. The way

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Speaker 1: he showed them they were discharged was by going, look,

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Speaker 1: see this one has five bullets left in it. And

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Speaker 1: this one has four. Well, that's not really conclusive evidence

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Speaker 1: because we don't know if those were tempered or it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like they did ballistics testing. Yeah, we didn't say

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Speaker 1: that specifically in the episode, but that was what I

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Speaker 1: had concluded they had done, was like being like, this

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Speaker 1: is how many bullets are left. Yeah, that was exactly it.

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Speaker 1: And I just there's so many things like that that

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Speaker 1: really feel like they conferred and put together their story

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Speaker 1: and then that's what went forward. The fact that those

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Speaker 1: two people had been through the funeral and burial process

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Speaker 1: in less than forty eight hours after the shooting happened

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Speaker 1: is the reddest flag. Um, it's so strange. It's so strange,

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Speaker 1: and we'll never really know what weird family secret they

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Speaker 1: may have been protecting, or maybe they weren't and they

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Speaker 1: just were weird and they didn't want anybody to know

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Speaker 1: their family had any kind of normal problems. We don't know.

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Speaker 1: We don't know where those weapons came from. The fact

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Speaker 1: that there were two seems really weird to me. Mysteries abound. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like the whole thing has to be allegedly

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Speaker 1: because we don't we don't know what the real story right.

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Speaker 1: So we may not have given you any sort of

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Speaker 1: goblins or ghosts for Halloween, but we gave you things

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Speaker 1: to think about and speculate on. It's a fascinating one.

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Speaker 1: There are still descendants of the Red Path family um,

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Speaker 1: who I'm sure have their own very strong feelings on

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Speaker 1: the matter. The mystery will live on history mystery. This

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Speaker 1: week we had one of the parts of our two

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Speaker 1: parts of Unearthed for the autumn season of the year,

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Speaker 1: and we don't normally break two parters across the weekend,

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Speaker 1: especially once we started doing Saturday Classics. It's my fault.

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Speaker 1: Makes seem like there was a bunch of stuff in

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Speaker 1: between Part one and Part two, but it just doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel as necessary with Unearthed episode since there's not a

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Speaker 1: continual narrative running across the entire course of the episode,

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Speaker 1: and also we just had some weird scheduling stuff happen.

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Speaker 1: It's my fault, listen, We just went along. That's that's

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Speaker 1: what's happens. We've had a number of surprise two partners,

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Speaker 1: which is also part of why we are recording this

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Speaker 1: episode on October the fourth, that it's not coming out

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Speaker 1: so a way later than that, which is uh, not

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Speaker 1: a buffer. We usually managed to accupulate unless we're specifically

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Speaker 1: trying to get ahead of somebody going on vacation or

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Speaker 1: having other time off that's planned, right, I'm just about

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Speaker 1: to happen. I have a question for you going into this, okay,

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Speaker 1: because one of the things that happened to on Earth

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Speaker 1: in the last couple of years, since you're the person

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Speaker 1: that collects and collates and assembles these, is that for

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Speaker 1: a while we had a little bit of like a

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Speaker 1: drop off because the pandemic was causing a lot of

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Speaker 1: archaeological projects and other research things to be put on pause.

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Speaker 1: Are you noticing that things have ramped back up to

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Speaker 1: almost normal or yeah, I would put things into the

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Speaker 1: almost normal rate of publishing category at this point. I

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Speaker 1: also think there was a period where I was finding

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that specifically referenced like a museum

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Speaker 1: inventory ing its entire collection while it was closed because

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Speaker 1: of the pandemic, or restoration work that was going on

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Speaker 1: that was that continued during the pandemic with like three

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Speaker 1: people there like that kind of stuff, And there were

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Speaker 1: some references to the pandemmic and work that was either

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Speaker 1: paused because of the pandemic or was carried out specifically

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Speaker 1: because people had the opportunity during the pandemic. Uh, there

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Speaker 1: was some of that this time, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: less than last time. Yeah. I'm just fascinated by that

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Speaker 1: EBB and flow. Yeah, yeah, and it's I was actually

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Speaker 1: kind of surprised that I don't think we've wind up

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Speaker 1: having a one part of this in a while. Um,

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Speaker 1: which back when we started doing them quarterly instead of

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Speaker 1: twice a year, and that was up from once a year,

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Speaker 1: I was like, surely at some point there will only

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Speaker 1: be one episode's worth of stuff to talk about. But

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Speaker 1: this time, as is always the case, I had two episodes,

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Speaker 1: not always but usually the case lately, I had two

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Speaker 1: episodes of steps to talk about, and then also stuff

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Speaker 1: that I had bookmarked that we did not talk about

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Speaker 1: for various reasons, some of it just because it was

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Speaker 1: more coin hordes that I feel like they added more

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Speaker 1: to the discussion I thought about your coin hordes recently.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a way I can talk

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Speaker 1: about this without spoiling anything because it's about Uh, it

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Speaker 1: will not be a spoiler when this comes out, but

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Speaker 1: you have not seen this yet, which is an episode

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Speaker 1: of and or where they are in an antiquity shop

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Speaker 1: and someone mentions, We've just gotten in quite an interesting

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Speaker 1: bunch of coins, and I was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: coin hards who followed me to space, I can't escape

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Speaker 1: there everywhere. That's pretty great. This also got worked on

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Speaker 1: in a particularly chaotic way because there was like I

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Speaker 1: had time off that has happened now, um, and then

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Speaker 1: came back and we had Folks have probably heard that

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Speaker 1: the the I Heart radio podcasters formed a union that

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Speaker 1: is recognized were union bargaining, and so this was pulled

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Speaker 1: together in the midst of having a lot of time

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Speaker 1: devoted to union bargaining because I've been working on that

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Speaker 1: with the union. So that is proceeding a pace, is

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Speaker 1: how I can describe that. Um. So, as I was

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Speaker 1: yesterday going through all of this, I kept finding stuff

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Speaker 1: where it was clear that I had been working on something,

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Speaker 1: and then I had gotten the message that was like

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Speaker 1: we're back to the table. Okay, I gotta go back

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Speaker 1: to the table. Now done, done done. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I always work in fits and starts, So

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Speaker 1: for me, there's always like a half left sentence where

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Speaker 1: my brain just goes, you know what, you gotta go

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Speaker 1: cut out that dress right this Yeah, like a zombie. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think you and I have like different mental temperament

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Speaker 1: in that way, um, because I know you always, for

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Speaker 1: as long as I have known you have had like

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Speaker 1: twenty seven things you're juggling at the same time. And

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Speaker 1: I'm more like, I need eight hours to focus on

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Speaker 1: this thing, whereas I would if I did that ninety

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Speaker 1: minutes in, I would stop be productive. It would literally

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Speaker 1: become a thing where I I typed two words a

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Speaker 1: half an hour. I don't, I don't. My brain just

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Speaker 1: is like, no gear change please, it's another passing anything. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think probably lots of listeners right now are going

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Speaker 1: it's Holly a d h D. And I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe maybe, but I'm in my fifties and

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Speaker 1: it works fine. So yeah, I have similar questions about myself,

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Speaker 1: sometimes not about specifically a d h D, but about

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Speaker 1: like some under the like uh non neurotypical umbrella. And

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Speaker 1: I similarly, I'm like, I'm forty seven years old, and

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Speaker 1: I have adapted to the challenges that my brain's thrown

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Speaker 1: at me, and it sure would answer some questions about

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Speaker 1: my child. Yeah, I mean I remember I actually talked

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Speaker 1: to my therapist about it a while back, and she

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Speaker 1: was like, okay, but like, would having an official diagnosis

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Speaker 1: really change your life? Like I just want to make

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Speaker 1: sure yeah, And I was like, oh, I guess it

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Speaker 1: probably wouldn't. I just be like, oh, I understand why

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Speaker 1: that happens now, and then I'd be like, okay, I

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Speaker 1: still want to shuffle things, because that's how I like

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Speaker 1: it at this point. You know what else tickled me

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Speaker 1: in this episode and the Tommins should case the idea

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Speaker 1: that what we have long suspected to be a spy

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Speaker 1: code might just be like a horse bedding horsepedding um.

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Speaker 1: And it made me laugh because I have often wondered,

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Speaker 1: I know, I certainly do this. I think most people

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Speaker 1: do this, right. You scribble down notes to yourself at

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Speaker 1: various times, and sometimes you even go back to your

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Speaker 1: own notes and go, I don't know what this is anymore.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, how many completely innocuous Like you're on

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Speaker 1: the phone with someone and you think of another thing,

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Speaker 1: so you write it down really fast so you don't forget,

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Speaker 1: and then you go back How many of those have

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Speaker 1: people been like ascribing meaning to that yeah. Um, Patrick

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Speaker 1: runs various D and D games as the you know,

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Speaker 1: the d M of the game, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: I've ever found notes that were related to a game

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Speaker 1: that I have played in with him. But I have

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Speaker 1: for sure stumbled onto like pieces of paper where he

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Speaker 1: jotted something down for one of the other campaigns, just

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Speaker 1: like on the dining table or something, and it looks

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Speaker 1: baffling for a moment, and then it's like, oh, these

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Speaker 1: are these are somede rolls. Yeah. It's actually more exciting

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Speaker 1: to me when my brain refinds the thing that I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what it was, but I kept it in case,

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Speaker 1: and then like two years later, it'll be like, those

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Speaker 1: were the measurements of that garment, and I'm like, R.

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Speaker 1: There was one time. I think I've mentioned this on

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Speaker 1: a show before. Um. I a lot of times will

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Speaker 1: just plunk things into my notes app on my phone

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Speaker 1: if I'm out and about in the world and something

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Speaker 1: strikes my interest is potentially for the show. And occasionally

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Speaker 1: I will go through my notes app to be like,

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Speaker 1: is there anything interesting in here that I haven't really

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Speaker 1: talked about? Uh, And one time I was like, WHOA,

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Speaker 1: this sounds fascinating and I put it into my search

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Speaker 1: bar and it was low Cations from Skyrim that I

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Speaker 1: needed to get to. I love it. I love it

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Speaker 1: so much. So Yeah, anyway, folks will get two behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes installments about this time Unearthed because second parts

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Speaker 1: coming out next week. Uh And until then, I hope

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Speaker 1: everybody has a great weekend whatever is going on. If

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Speaker 1: nothing's going on, I hope you have a great time

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Speaker 1: doing nothing. Sometimes I love to do nothing a little hutter.

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Speaker 1: It's the best, the best. Uh So we'll be back

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Speaker 1: with a Saturday Classic tomorrow and the rest of Unearthed

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Speaker 1: on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.