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Speaker 1: You've got bitcoin, you've got borderless money, you've got the

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Speaker 1: original borderless communications medium, which was the Internet. If you remember,

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Speaker 1: like twenty years ago, right when Facebook and all these

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Speaker 1: sort of social networks first came out, we have real

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Speaker 1: world social networks, and these original digital social networks were

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Speaker 1: kind of like mirrors of that real world social network.

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Speaker 1: They put a recommendation algorithm into that. The metric that

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Speaker 1: they measure is not how much connections you have, but

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Speaker 1: how much time is spent on the device. Now there's

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Speaker 1: a vacuum for social networks. I want to actually build community,

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Speaker 1: but Lance has sort of becomes it's almost like a

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Speaker 1: Spotify for communities, places, and events. I wanted to become

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Speaker 1: a social network. There's about discovering things to do in

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Speaker 1: the real world, and yeah, that's effective what we're trying

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Speaker 1: to do for this borderless movement.

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Speaker 2: One thing that I know that you're doing a little

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Speaker 2: bit different is by building our noster, which is a

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Speaker 2: decentralized protocol, so different than like the traditional platform.

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Speaker 3: So how does that change?

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Speaker 1: I wonder if.

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Speaker 2: Alex welcome back to the show. I think we've I

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Speaker 2: don't know, we've done three or four shows. We excited

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Speaker 2: to have you here. I love the book you got

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Speaker 2: there in the background, the uncommiss Manifesto. Of course, the

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Speaker 2: book that we co authored together. If you guys haven't

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Speaker 2: read that book, you certainly should. But Alex, you know,

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Speaker 2: we both obviously have a lot in common in regards

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Speaker 2: to bitcoin and the books that we've written, and I

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Speaker 2: talk mostly about bitcoin from like an investing lens and

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Speaker 2: macroeconomic lens and trying to understand sort of the dangers

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Speaker 2: in the market so we can get ahead. Right. We're

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Speaker 2: all trying to improve our lives, and most of us

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Speaker 2: think money is a way to do that. But in

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Speaker 2: your latest book, The Bushido Bitcoin, you talk about how

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Speaker 2: maybe just getting that money, maybe bitcoin alone isn't enough.

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Speaker 3: It's not enough, and.

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Speaker 2: We need capital and character. How do you see bitcoin

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Speaker 2: maybe projects that you're working on now, like sat Lanis,

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Speaker 2: how do you see them restoring the balance of capital

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Speaker 2: and character.

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Speaker 4: First of all, good to be back, buddy.

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Speaker 1: It's it's been a couple months since we caught up,

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Speaker 1: so I'm glad to be here. I let me answer

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Speaker 1: this question this way. I I'm of the opinion that, well,

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Speaker 1: at least when.

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Speaker 4: I wrote the book a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: I think the world was in a really challenging space, right.

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Speaker 1: It seems like, you know, wog virus was going to

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Speaker 1: take over, that the world was coming to an end,

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Speaker 1: that up was down, down was up, like was white.

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Speaker 1: You know, everything was sort of inverted, and it was

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Speaker 1: an interesting period.

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Speaker 4: I feel like.

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Speaker 1: We've turned the corner, particularly of the last eighteen months,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's continued to accelerate.

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Speaker 4: I think the world is moving in a better trajectory.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's got, you know, not something to

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Speaker 1: do with my book, like as if my book changed

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Speaker 1: this trajectory, but I think what I touched on in

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Speaker 1: the book was this sort of desire, this to move

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Speaker 1: back towards a age in which we kind of value

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Speaker 1: character once again, like character principles, virtues and things like that.

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Speaker 1: And there's been like a in my opinion at least,

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Speaker 1: the marked improvement. Like you look at the discourse even

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Speaker 1: on things like I mean, you know, you and I

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Speaker 1: went back and forth on this.

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Speaker 4: On X the other day.

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Speaker 1: It's like a lot of social media and all this

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff is just becoming slop. But beneath the slop,

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Speaker 1: there's actually, you know, the quality of the discourse is

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Speaker 1: much better. You know, the kind of stuff that is

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Speaker 1: getting traction and the kind of stuff we're talking about

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Speaker 1: is far more honest, far more real, and what I would.

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Speaker 4: Say, like write coded right.

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Speaker 1: So for me, the premise or the idea behind the

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Speaker 1: book of like uniting capital and character is kind of

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Speaker 1: stems from this idea that if you optimize just for

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Speaker 1: one and which is capital, and I think a big

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Speaker 1: problem in the world over the last probably one hundred

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Speaker 1: years is that we've optimized more and more and more

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Speaker 1: just for capital, and we've kind of forgot the character

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Speaker 1: side of things. What you end up doing is you

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Speaker 1: kind of turn civilization into a giant strip mall. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's just everything is just designed not for meaning anymore.

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Speaker 1: You don't get these beautiful cathedrals, you get these like

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Speaker 1: you know, shopping mall squares where everything looks the same,

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Speaker 1: sounds the same, and it's you know, just about extracting

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Speaker 1: something from you instead of you know, building something beautiful

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Speaker 1: that actually gives back to the environment around it. So,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, and this is the sort of the

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Speaker 1: core message of the book is that in order to

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Speaker 1: build a better world, we can't just win the economic game.

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Speaker 1: I think this is probably this was my big insight

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Speaker 1: out of the book, is like the economic part is

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Speaker 1: really really important, and you and I wrote about it

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Speaker 1: in the Uncommunist manifestos. That's like the foundation, but it

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Speaker 1: needs to form the basis of something higher, something more ascendant,

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Speaker 1: and that I think is sort of the pursuit of beauty,

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Speaker 1: of character, of virtue, of excellence, which are things that

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Speaker 1: are often not economic in nature, like going and building

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Speaker 1: a cathedral over three hundred years, which you're not going

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Speaker 1: to see the return on investment on it, and all

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff has nothing to do with Ustrea

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Speaker 1: economics and sound money. It's got everything to do with

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Speaker 1: the in fact sacrificing economics for something higher. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's it's an important distinction. And my hope as

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Speaker 1: a message for the book is that people start to

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Speaker 1: realize that, hey, okay, we need to win the capital game.

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Speaker 1: Yes we need a strong foundation. You can't build a

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Speaker 1: house in a weak foundation, but then you need the

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Speaker 1: character and the virtual around that.

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Speaker 4: So that's sort of the message.

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Speaker 2: Then do you think they're like a chicken or the egg?

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Speaker 2: Are they are they complementary or is it more of

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Speaker 2: like a hierarchy of needs where once I've been able

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Speaker 2: to secure my capital and I've built myself or secured

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Speaker 2: my future with the capital, then I can focus on

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Speaker 2: things of beauty and building character. Or is it where

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Speaker 2: if I surround myself with beauty and character first, then

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Speaker 2: I can get the capitol and secure my future better, faster, easier.

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Speaker 1: I think it's more like a yin yang actually where

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Speaker 1: they're related, because it's it's you know, you can probably

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Speaker 1: find we probably find evidence of both, right, Like you

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Speaker 1: can find people who might not be surrounded by beauty,

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Speaker 1: but somehow they have the courage.

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Speaker 4: Or the ingredients to make something beautiful.

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Speaker 1: And I would argue that that's sort of the story

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Speaker 1: of humanity, you know, coming out of coming out of nothing,

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Speaker 1: coming out of poverty, coming out of you know, lack,

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Speaker 1: and actually building something. So I do think though it's

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Speaker 1: there's probably a spectrum there because the periods in which

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Speaker 1: the greatest quote unquote sort of beauty and character were

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Speaker 1: developed came from times when there was quite a bit

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Speaker 1: of a strong sound capital base underneath it, so you

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Speaker 1: actually can reach higher. I don't think it's the way

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Speaker 1: I'll put it, is I don't think it's one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent necessary because you can do it without capital, but

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Speaker 1: I think it's a it's definitely a help, and it's

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Speaker 1: definitely an accelerant.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think about, you know, if if I'm broke

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Speaker 2: and I'm just trying to figure out how to feed

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Speaker 2: my family, I don't have time to build beauty totally,

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Speaker 2: so I have to kind of take care of that need.

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Speaker 2: But I also last summer, I took my family to

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Speaker 2: Italy and we went to Florence, which was absolutely beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And you know, in that Renaissance age, it was the

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Speaker 2: wealthy people who kind of funded all of that stuff,

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Speaker 2: so it was probably you know, the people that were

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Speaker 2: making the David statue and those beautiful buildings weren't the wealthy,

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Speaker 2: but people they had wealthy benefactors that gave them that money.

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Speaker 2: But I also think, you know, something I talk about

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Speaker 2: quite often is that there's three types of capital, and

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Speaker 2: so most of us just think about financial capital, and

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Speaker 2: that's where most people spend most of their life pursuing

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Speaker 2: financial capital. But I kind of think of it where

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Speaker 2: financial capital isn't something that we chase, it's actually a

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Speaker 2: byproduct and it's a byproduct of our relationship capital and

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Speaker 2: our mental or our skill capital. So maybe the care

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Speaker 2: character is part of like building the relationship. If I

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Speaker 2: have good character, then those relationships are nurtured and protected

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Speaker 2: and grown. And if I nurture relate my own mental

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Speaker 2: skill capital, that's also part of the character right, So

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Speaker 2: then I have the mental capital the skills, and I

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Speaker 2: have the people, the connections, the relationships, and those combined

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Speaker 2: then bring the financial capital together.

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Speaker 4: Totally, totally, I think you.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if how well I'm thinking out aloud here,

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Speaker 1: I'm chucking a ped of teel. I wonder how related.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like maybe there is a fourth dimension.

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Speaker 4: There and sort of ruin your model here.

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Speaker 1: But maybe the character capital is a fourth dimension that is,

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Speaker 1: like how much integrity or virtue or honor and all

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff that you have as a human

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Speaker 1: being then leads to the establishment of better relationships. So

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Speaker 1: therefore you have stronger relationship capital leads to the greater

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Speaker 1: development of skill capital, et cetera, because you have the

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Speaker 1: the virtue of excellence, honor and all that sort of

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Speaker 1: stuff that is necessary to develop the skills. And then

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Speaker 1: ultimately that leads to material capital, So I feel like

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Speaker 1: they're all interrelated. Maybe there's there's a nuance there or

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, you could place it as a subset

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Speaker 1: to these things. But there's just something there about, you know,

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Speaker 1: because there's people with you know, lots of relationships. There's

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Speaker 1: people with you know, with lots of skills, but you

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Speaker 1: know that they don't have.

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Speaker 3: That. I don't know that.

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Speaker 4: I don't know the character. I think.

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Speaker 1: I think it maybe lives in its own dimension.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, Then in a world like we have today,

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Speaker 2: where we have you know, unlimited money basically being printed

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Speaker 2: with no true cost of capital, it starts to change

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Speaker 2: the way that we think about money, use money, invest

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Speaker 2: our money. Obviously there's a lot of malinvestment going on

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Speaker 2: without a true class there.

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Speaker 3: So how do you think it would?

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Speaker 2: I guess this character then influenced our investment decisions in

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Speaker 2: a in a macro environment that's flooded with all this

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Speaker 2: cheap capital.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard, man, I mean, it's so strong. Character

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Speaker 1: would look at an opportunity to make a quick, easy buck,

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Speaker 1: but realized that it was a net detriment to society

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Speaker 1: and would then say, no, I'm not going to do that, right.

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Speaker 4: It's it's almost like the.

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Speaker 1: Kind of like the emergence of the bigcoin vcs, right,

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Speaker 1: they were like, Okay, well, we know that we can

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Speaker 1: probably actually make more money by aping into a shitcoin

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Speaker 1: ic O, but we chose not to because we want

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Speaker 1: to actually build something interesting for the future. So I

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Speaker 1: think that's got something to do with with time preference, certainly,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's also got something to do with

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Speaker 1: with character, which is sort of saying like, look, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I could probably make money sex trafficking.

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Speaker 1: I could probably make money doing XYZ. But it's not

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Speaker 1: about the money. It's about like what kind of a

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Speaker 1: world am I creating? What am I producing? And I

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Speaker 1: think that's really important. And those lines have gotten blurred

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Speaker 1: and particularly over the last fifty years, as we know,

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Speaker 1: like and I would even say very much so over

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Speaker 1: the last ten to fifteen years, where even on like man,

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Speaker 1: you know that stupid app that went viral the other

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Speaker 1: week with the tea app right where you know, chicks

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Speaker 1: are sort of dubbin on other dudes and all this

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff, like these are the apps that are

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Speaker 1: like taking off, which are they making society better? No,

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Speaker 1: they're actually making everything worse right, they're contributing to poor

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Speaker 1: relationships to you know, really bad dynamic between men and women,

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Speaker 1: to fuck that birth rates, all this sort of stuff

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Speaker 1: like so, yeah, sure a bunch of VC's made some money,

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Speaker 1: but did that do anything positive? Absolutely not, right, So

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Speaker 1: I think these things are forgotten often when you have

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Speaker 1: all this cheap capital and it doesn't matter, like the

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Speaker 1: thing becomes let's just how can we double up on

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Speaker 1: my money very quickly?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, speaking of that, like kind of the

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Speaker 2: short game versus the long game. I was telling you

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Speaker 2: before we started recording about the next five years of

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Speaker 2: my life building out this company called the Satsuma And

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Speaker 2: you know, I used to when I first got into bitcoin,

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Speaker 2: and then I started writing a cryptocurrency newsletter and I

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Speaker 2: started talking about all the cryptocurrencies and I was like,

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Speaker 2: it's not bitcoin, it's blockchain, and I kind of went

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Speaker 2: down that rabbit hole. And about twenty nineteen, after publishing

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Speaker 2: a thousand pages of research, I decided, no, no, I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to focus my career on bitcoin. And at

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Speaker 2: the time, crypto was still taking off, and like, I

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Speaker 2: could have made a lot of money by launching my

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Speaker 2: own ico and my own coin. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: my old business partner that I was with at the time,

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Speaker 2: he did he did launch a token and he did

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Speaker 2: make you know, eight figures pretty quickly. And sometimes I

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Speaker 2: was like, man, I could have just stayed with him

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Speaker 2: and I would have made that money, right, But I

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Speaker 2: decided to build my life and my future and my

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Speaker 2: brand reputation on what I considered what I thought would

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Speaker 2: be a bigger foundation, a bigger bed rock. And now

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Speaker 2: I was just telling you that I'd now have launched

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Speaker 2: this company, Satsuma, which is that company, And I probably

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Speaker 2: never would have gotten here if I had taken the

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Speaker 2: short road and gone for the quick buck in the ico,

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Speaker 2: which I could have done.

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Speaker 3: I could have just stayed with him and done that.

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Speaker 2: And so we've got something bigger here. A lot of

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Speaker 2: it comes down to incentives, though, and I guess it,

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Speaker 2: you know, I guess I was in a place that

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Speaker 2: allowed me to take the bigger swing and play the

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Speaker 2: longer game. You're now launching your bigger swing. You have

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Speaker 2: that company, Satlantis. So how do you think sat Lantis

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Speaker 2: can serve as a model for how companies could combine?

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Speaker 2: I guess strong financial incentives and like strong character principles together.

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Speaker 3: Are you trying to combine those two?

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Speaker 2: Every day we see headlines about inflation and dead and

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Speaker 2: diminishing control over our own money. That's why I always

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Speaker 2: come back to bitcoin because it's got for generations. It's

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Speaker 2: not for legacy. But protecting your bitcoin legacy the right way,

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Speaker 2: it's not always. It demands discipline, focus and the right partner.

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Speaker 2: Now that's why I personally use Unchained Signature. It's a

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Speaker 2: premium private client service for serious bitcoin holders who want

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Speaker 2: expert guidance, resilient custody, and an enduring partnership. Now a Signature,

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Speaker 2: you're paired with your own dedicated account manager, someone who

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Speaker 2: understands your goals helps you every step of the way.

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Speaker 2: You're going to get white glove onboarding, same day emergency support,

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Speaker 2: personalized education, reduced.

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Speaker 1: Trading fees, and priority access.

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Speaker 2: To exclusive events and features. Unchained collaborative custody model is

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Speaker 2: designed to provide the same security as the world's biggest

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Speaker 2: bitcoin custodians, but.

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Speaker 4: For those who prefer to fold their own keys.

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Speaker 2: Now, I've been using and recommending Unchained for years.

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Speaker 3: I even got my parents to.

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Speaker 4: Set up with them.

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Speaker 2: So if you want to get set up check out

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Speaker 2: unchained signature at unchained dot com, slash mark Moss and

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Speaker 2: Just use code Moss ten at checkout to hit ten

295
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Speaker 2: percent your first year because your bitcoin isn't just for life,

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Speaker 2: it's for generations.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I mean the.

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Speaker 1: I don't think the approach is novel, right. So you

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Speaker 1: look at all the great companies throughout history looked at

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Speaker 1: what was happening in the world at the time. They

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Speaker 1: looked at what tools or technologies were available, and then

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Speaker 1: they created something or produced something that was right for

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Speaker 1: the time, right for people, that solved the problem. And

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Speaker 1: ideally that the biggest ones they basically carved out or

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Speaker 1: created a new category of product, right, or a new

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Speaker 1: category of service, or they defined something new, right like

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Speaker 1: like Apple Computer defined or created the personal computer category. Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, Amazon created e commerce, like they carved out

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Speaker 1: and they became the category king. You know, the Henry

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Speaker 1: Fords of the world, you know, carved out the car and.

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Speaker 4: All this sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So it's not I don't think what we're doing is

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Speaker 1: is philosophically different to any of that. I think that

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Speaker 1: is going to be the case forever.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: What what I'm doing is, I'm, you know, personally, like

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Speaker 1: in the in the context of Atlantis, I see this

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Speaker 1: kind of move towards a world I use the word borderless.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to like come up with with a framing

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Speaker 1: for the kind of the sovereignty movement. And I'm hesitant

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Speaker 1: to use the word sovereignty. I know, sort of us

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Speaker 1: in the bitcoin space and all this sort of stuff,

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Speaker 1: we use it a lot. But we did some testing

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Speaker 1: to sort of understand how people perceive the word sovereignty

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Speaker 1: outside of the bitcoin space, and everyone thinks it's got

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Speaker 1: something to do with you know, white supremacist groups or

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Speaker 1: something like that.

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Speaker 4: Just really fun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So you.

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Speaker 1: Know, I've been I've been thinking more about the idea

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Speaker 1: of borderless living. And you know, you've got some ingredients

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Speaker 1: now for that. You've got you've got bitcoin, You've got

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Speaker 1: borderless money, right, You've got the original borderless communications medium,

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Speaker 1: which was the Internet. Now you know, there's things being

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Speaker 1: built upon the Internet that will hopefully reinstate some of

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Speaker 1: that borderlessness because, as we know, the Internet has kind

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Speaker 1: of been siloed out into these like whether it's the

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Speaker 1: social media silos, but also like there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: this like cookies and KYC and all this other kind

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Speaker 1: of crap that has sort of like bogged the Internet

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Speaker 1: down a little bit where you can't log into a

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Speaker 1: freaking website anymore without you know, having to prove your humor.

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Speaker 3: It's terrible and crazy, terrible.

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Speaker 1: Drives me nuts. So so I think there's these tools

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Speaker 1: that are kind of like hopefully creating a section of

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Speaker 1: the Internet that will once again be a little bit

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Speaker 1: more borderless, a little bit more mobile. But it actually

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Speaker 1: extends beyond that. You know, there's this movement towards network

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Speaker 1: states and free private cities. There's obviously this whole movement

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Speaker 1: to you know, you see the passport brows and the

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Speaker 1: geo arbitrage people trying to do like flag theory multiple

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Speaker 1: passports have some level of location independence, and it all

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Speaker 1: comes from the same thread, right even down to people

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Speaker 1: that are like doing seed oil free and touching grass

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Speaker 1: and you know, using blue light blockers and saunas and

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Speaker 1: all this sort of shit that they're trying to get

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Speaker 1: outside of the mainstream bubble and do something that's sort

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Speaker 1: of outside and that has gives them more I guess sovereignty, choice, flexibility,

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Speaker 1: something you know, unique, unique for them. So I see

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Speaker 1: this movement happening, right. And the other accelerant in this

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Speaker 1: movement is with the with the rise of AI and

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Speaker 1: with the strip mollification of social media, right where everything

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Speaker 1: is just sort of becoming slop and you're just being

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Speaker 1: sold crap and all this sort of stuff, and it's

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Speaker 1: just kind of like proliferation of just crap online. There's

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Speaker 1: this craving from people to be not only more borderless

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Speaker 1: and location independent, but also to start like connecting, building community,

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Speaker 1: curating like real life experiences. So if I take that movement,

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Speaker 1: if I take this large trend that's happening, and then

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Speaker 1: I think, all right, what can we do? What is

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Speaker 1: the product that is kind of like lacking in the

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Speaker 1: world today. I see kind of this three pillars to it,

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Speaker 1: like people connecting, people connecting people with places, and with

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Speaker 1: events like real world events. I think the more online

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Speaker 1: gets like full of noise, people are actually gonna want

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Speaker 1: and whether that's like a run club, whether that is

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Speaker 1: just like a mastermind, whether that is a small event,

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Speaker 1: a large event, a conference, a retreat, whatever, this stuff

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Speaker 1: I think is going to increase and what s Atlanta's

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Speaker 1: sort of becomes is almost like a Spotify for communities,

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Speaker 1: places and events. It's a place where you can discover

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Speaker 1: all of this stuff and you can do so through

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Speaker 1: the lens of your social graph and your interests. Right,

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Speaker 1: So something like this doesn't necessarily exist, and for me,

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Speaker 1: it's how can I build or carve out a new

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Speaker 1: category of product that's almost like part map, part events app,

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Speaker 1: part social app, which is you know, in the past,

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Speaker 1: I was kind of framing it a little bit more

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Speaker 1: like Instagram, but now you know this sort of I've

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Speaker 1: had a big awakening after Prague, and I'm sort of

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Speaker 1: almost seeing it as a Spotify. Like Spotify, you're creating

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Speaker 1: lists and playlists and you're sharing it with people and

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Speaker 1: it kind of delivers something for your taste. Could you

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Speaker 1: have a Spotify for communities, for places and for events?

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really compelling sort of angle, And yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's effective what we're trying to do for this borderless movement,

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Speaker 1: for this movement of increasing sovereignty, choice and living outside

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Speaker 1: of the mainstream matrix.

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Speaker 2: That word that you used, taste, right, that's the one

400
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Speaker 2: thing AI doesn't have.

401
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Speaker 3: You know, you're a writer. Obviously we coarc the book together.

402
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Speaker 3: You're much better writer than I am.

403
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Speaker 2: But you can see, like, and I've tried to use

404
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 2: AI quite a bit for this, and it's really good

405
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 2: at a lot of things, and I use it a lot,

406
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Speaker 2: but it cannot write. There's no soul. It's just like

407
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Speaker 2: a bunch of words that don't really mean anything, and

408
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: you can just see there's no taste. And so then

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Speaker 2: you mentioned the slop online slop. I think that's kind

410
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 2: of what you're saying, where it's like you can see

411
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Speaker 2: people are using it just to write stuff and there's

412
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Speaker 2: nothing there. There's no substance, and not only in the content,

413
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Speaker 2: but then the posts.

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Speaker 3: And the replies that come on top of that.

415
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Speaker 2: But I think a lot of that comes back down

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Speaker 2: to the incentives, right, So like one of the things

417
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Speaker 2: I think obviously AI being that tool that allows people

418
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Speaker 2: to throw the slop out pretty quickly. But then with

419
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Speaker 2: X or Twitter, now X sort of incentivizing or monetizing accounts.

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Speaker 2: So now if I get a lot of views on

421
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Speaker 2: my post, then I get money, and then well we

422
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Speaker 2: find the formula that works. So there's a pattern interrupt

423
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Speaker 2: and I have to throw something out controversial, and then

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Speaker 2: I have to give the context, and then I have

425
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Speaker 2: to give the teaching point, and I have to give

426
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Speaker 2: this summary, and then everything looks the same. And as

427
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: soon as I see it, I'm like, Okay, that's.

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Speaker 3: Going to not have any value.

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Speaker 2: I'll just rolling by. But I think it was it

430
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Speaker 2: was a combination of the tools and the incentives that

431
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Speaker 2: sort of have caused that to sort of happen.

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Speaker 3: So I'm just.

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Speaker 2: Curious, like that seems to be where we're at in

434
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Speaker 2: the digital age. So how does something like satllinis fix that?

435
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 2: How do we kind of avoid that mediocrity that the

436
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 2: clickbait the outrage which is also the outrage is also

437
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 2: part of the human emotion, right, because we're much more

438
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 2: attuned to fear than we are for pleasure. So how

439
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: does that change?

440
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 1: So let me let me take a step back. Then

441
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 1: let's do a little bit of a history lesson on

442
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 1: what happened and how we got here. So if we

443
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: if you remember like twenty years ago, right when when

444
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: Facebook and all these sort of social networks first came out, right,

445
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: they were they were somewhat of a replication of what

446
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 1: we did in real life, Like you and I have friends,

447
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: we're connected, we have a direct social connection, and then

448
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: I am connected to your friends through you.

449
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 4: So there's a degree of separation.

450
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: There, and you know, we have real world social networks

451
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 1: and these original digital social networks were kind of like

452
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: mirrors of that real world social network. And originally, if

453
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: you remember, like there was no algorithms. It was just

454
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: you're seeing what your friends are sharing, and you know

455
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 1: they're sharing stuff like that, and you had this kind

456
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 1: of network established online. About ten years ago, the Google

457
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 1: DeepMind team actually set out to after they bought YouTube,

458
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: they wanted to increase the time spent watching videos after

459
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 1: a particular video. So what they did was they built

460
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: the world's first like recommendation algorithm, and they nailed it.

461
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: I think it was I don't know the statistic exactly,

462
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: but it was something like three thousand percent increase in

463
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: view view time right after this. So then some companies

464
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: obviously quickly followed that up. So it was by Dance

465
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: at the time, I think was one of the first

466
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: early movies they were in China at the time. This

467
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: was before they had released dogin in America, which became

468
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: TikTok they had I can remember it was their news thing,

469
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: so they put a recommendation algorithm into that. Then Facebook

470
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 1: copied and we had what became the era of social

471
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: networks turning into social media. And social media is different.

472
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 1: Social media is more about algorithms and recommendation engines and

473
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: about that the metric that they measure is not how

474
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: much connections you have, but how much time is spent

475
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: on the device, so that the leading metric is engagement. Now,

476
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: if you kind of mix this together, this ties into

477
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: what you said about incentives. If your metric is engagement,

478
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: then what engages. As you said, people are more prone

479
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: to notice fear. So it's like it's that classic If

480
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: it bleeds, it leads, right. So media is always designed

481
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: or optimized to kind of capture your limbic brain and

482
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: like stress it and get you sucked into something. So

483
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: if the metric is engagement, what ends up happening is

484
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: these things naturally turn into kind of slop fests because

485
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: that is the thing that sucks people in. Now, what's

486
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: happened is we've left a massive gap. We've had like

487
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: everything has become social media, media, media media, and media media.

488
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: Like everything's basically looking the same. You look on Instagram,

489
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: you look on Twitter, you look on Snapchat, you look

490
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 1: on TikTok, It's all the same shit. Everything is a formula,

491
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: Everything is a piece of media. Everything is designed for

492
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: the algorithm, not for the content. All this sort of stuff,

493
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: and it's it's not gonna get better. That's in my opinion,

494
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: that's going to keep trending that way because AI is

495
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: going to accelerate this, but it's left a massive gap

496
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: for network social network, which is I want to know

497
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: who I'm connected to. I want to actually build community.

498
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 1: I don't want to just have a fucking an empty

499
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: following of a million people who I don't know. I

500
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: actually want to have some level of connection. And then

501
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: I want to use that network stuff in.

502
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 4: The real world.

503
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: I want to know where to go, what to do,

504
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: the places to check out. I want that to inform

505
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: my actual real life, not to make me spend more

506
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: time on the app. Right, So this is sort of

507
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: the needle I'm trying to thread now is Atlantis. I

508
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: don't want it to become a social media app that

509
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: is about content. I want it to become a social

510
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: network that is about discovering things to do in the

511
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: real world and connecting with people, so you can build communities,

512
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: so that you can curate places, so that you can

513
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 1: run events and attend events and discover them and all

514
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. So I wanted to get you

515
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: into the real world as opposed to keeping you on

516
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: your phone. So the metric for success for us will

517
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: be different, and I'm hoping that will keep it from

518
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: becoming a fucking engagement farm.

519
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

520
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 2: Now, one thing that I know that you're doing a

521
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: little bit different is by building a Noster, which is

522
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: a decentralized product, so different than like the traditional platforms

523
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: that we have that are built in the centralized models.

524
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: But how do you think in a decentralized model that

525
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: changes that? I mean, do you think that in this

526
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 2: decentralized model it will keep that from happening?

527
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 4: Not necessarily.

528
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: I don't think Noster sort of keeps that from.

529
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: Having to drive sware quality over time if it stays decentralized.

530
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 4: Not necessarily.

531
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of misconception around what Noster is,

532
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: and it's I think the since Noster doesn't have a

533
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: marketing department, it's never been articulated very well. In my opinion,

534
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: Noster provides one piece of value or actually, no, I

535
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: should rephrase that nostill has many different values, but I

536
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: think the primary piece of value is that you own

537
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: the relationships between you and the other accounts. So let's

538
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: think about Instagram for a second. You go and build

539
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: a million follows on Instagram, but for whatever reason, you

540
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: either get banned or the algorithm changes, or what's happened

541
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: with Facebook recently, Like imagine you've gone and built all

542
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: this sort of audiences on Facebook and everything and nobody

543
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: uses Facebook anymore. How much value is they're left in

544
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: the networks, in the community you're built there, nothing like

545
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: It's exactly like people are increasing, Like they're like, man,

546
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: I've got an eighty thousand person group on Facebook and

547
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: I get three.

548
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 4: Likes on my announcement there.

549
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, congratulations, you just put twenty years of

550
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: work into this thing, and it's worthless if you could

551
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: somehow And this is let's do a hypothetical here and

552
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: then I'll say how. Then I'll explain how to work

553
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: if Facebook and Instagram and all this sort of stuff

554
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: were supposedly built on a protocol where the identity was interoperable,

555
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: not the apps. The apps can all be different and

556
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: can do different things. They can be long form apps,

557
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: they can be video apps, they can be community apps,

558
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: they can be whatever. Right, but if somehow the identity

559
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: protocol was common, you could just log out a Facebook

560
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: and you could log into Twitter or Instagram or whatever,

561
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: and you're the relationships will be there, not necessarily the content.

562
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: And this is where a lot of people miscommunicate what

563
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: Noster is. They're like, oh, you know, you can keep

564
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: your content. Your content is unsensorable. No, that is not

565
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: the point of Noster. Who cares about the content. It's

566
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: not about that. It's the relationships that are important, because

567
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: then you can take your relationships and you can go

568
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: to the new app, which the new app might be

569
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: really cool. It might be for scrolling videos or whatever.

570
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: It might be for finding places, it might be for whatever.

571
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: But those relationships are there and that's where the value is.

572
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: It's almost like you would understand this as a marketer.

573
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: It's like owning your email list.

574
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 4: Right.

575
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: You can go and build an email list, you know,

576
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: on kit, on send grid, on this app, on click

577
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: funnels and all these different places, but ultimately you kind

578
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: of aggregate that into one list. The list is where

579
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: the value is so that's kind of like what Noster is.

580
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: It's the ownership of email with the distribution potential of

581
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: social So that is for me me why I chose

582
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: to use it. Now, I didn't choose it because you know,

583
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: Noster is supposedly going to be the thing that changes

584
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: the Internet. It is just the best implementation of the

585
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: original intent of the Internet. From the beginning, the Internet

586
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: was supposed to have an identity layer, but it just

587
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: never did. So like what ended up happening is identity

588
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: became a feature inside applications. So you have an identity

589
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: with LinkedIn, you have an identity with Uber, you have

590
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: an identity with Amazon, you have an identity with Facebook,

591
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. It was just a feature inside all

592
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: of these apps. Noster or if it's not Noster that wins,

593
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: maybe something else will win. But Noster is a great

594
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: implementation for pushing the identity back down to the protocol

595
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: and then allowing application developers like us to build something

596
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: really cool, but to build it in such a way

597
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: that uses the social graph underneath to enhance the experience.

598
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: So that's what's cool about what we're doing.

599
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: What about the security side of it?

600
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 3: So you mentioned earlier.

601
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: When you log into all these websites you have to

602
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: like in this KYC and two FA and everything. It's

603
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: so annoying. I hate that you have to do that.

604
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: I understand we have to do it because of the

605
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: security aspect of it, right, I mean, these networks and

606
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: these these database are getting hacked. Every day we find

607
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: out like another but another hack, it seems like. So

608
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: unfortunately with AI and the hackers, we have to have

609
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: that layer.

610
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: Does does this? Does this?

611
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: I guess the essentialized protocol of noster help prevent that.

612
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: Somehow it doesn't prevent it. It creates optionality. So for example,

613
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: your identity is just the key, right, you can hold

614
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: that key yourself, very much like bitcoin, and you don't

615
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: have to go through the kind of the humiliation ritual

616
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: of proving you're a human online with like captives and

617
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: shit like that, because you can just take your key

618
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: and you can unlock any Nostra enable.

619
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 4: App and you just enter.

620
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: Now that that comes in the same way with bitcoin,

621
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: which is if you hold your Bitcoin keys, if you

622
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: lose them, no one's coming to help you. In the

623
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: same way with nosters if you lose your private key

624
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: or if someone gets it, then they actually hold your

625
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: identity because it's a very instrument. So there is a

626
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 1: danger there, which means you might need to think of

627
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: ways to secure that key. And it may just be

628
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: that you might want to secure that key with a

629
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: third party, someone like s Atlantis or whatever, and then

630
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: you might be able to like in the future, we

631
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: will look to build a tool which allows you to

632
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: abstract your noster key and log into other noster accounts

633
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: or other noster enabled apps with a single button, right,

634
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: because then it'll basically like the paradigm actually shifts. We're

635
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: used to log in, but actually in a noster paradigm

636
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: where you're in the key, it's actually that the paradigm

637
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: is unlock. It's actually a little bit different. So it's

638
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: it's a new topography for the web. And that's what

639
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: kind of the last thing I'll say on this really

640
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: quickly is what interests me about this is if you

641
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: look at web sort of one point zero and two

642
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: point oher that we've had to date, that all of

643
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: that was built on TCPIP, HCDP, Right, like these four

644
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,479
Speaker 1: layers of the Internet, this next generation of the Web

645
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: has another two new layers it's got money as a

646
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: protocol being bitcoin, and it's got identity as a protocol,

647
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: which Noster is currently the leading implementation. As I said,

648
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: that might change, but currently that seems to be the one.

649
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: You have a new design space. If you think about

650
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: the first four layers gave us everything from Google to

651
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: Amazon to Snapchat, in to everything that we use today

652
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: to Riverside that we're using now all of it. What

653
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: will this new design space give us? What kind of

654
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: applications where you can have the social network intelligence embedded

655
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: into the product to make it more relevant, more real,

656
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: Like will it become the place where more human connection

657
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: happens and stuff like that. It'll be very interesting how

658
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: this evolves over the next five years, ten years. I

659
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: think it's as has the potential for a renaissance on

660
00:33:58,880 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: the web.

661
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it's always technology that changes the world.

662
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 2: It change the way that we organize and communicate and

663
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: all of these things. And kind of to the evolution

664
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: story that you already gave us, it's sort of gotten

665
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: us to the point we're at.

666
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: But kind of going back to the Bashido code you were.

667
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: You started out by saying, how eighteen months ago the

668
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: world seemed like we were going in a different direction,

669
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 2: and now not for all of the world. I mean,

670
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: look at what's going on in some of these other countries,

671
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 2: the UK, for example, they seem to still be going

672
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 2: down that same path. Most of the world seems to

673
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: kind of be on this alternate reality. I guess would

674
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: you say that, you know, kind of getting back to

675
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: this bashido code and trying to instill character and these

676
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: things into people. Do you think these new layers on

677
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: the internet will allow us to build things that will

678
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: bring that more to fruition or do you think it

679
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: if tech is what kind of got us here, does

680
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: it work against that?

681
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 1: Why?

682
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 4: Let me say I can answer this question.

683
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: I was on a pod the other day with with

684
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: Francis Pulliard and a couple other guys, and we're just

685
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: sort of.

686
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:06,959
Speaker 4: Riffing on a bunch of different things.

687
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: I one of the things I said on that show

688
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: was I'm convinced the world is going to continue to

689
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: bifurcate into into the haves and have nots, that's one

690
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: way to put it, or into the the sheep and

691
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: the lions, into the remnant and the lemmings.

692
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 4: You know, whichever sort of like framing.

693
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: You want to give that creators and the consumers.

694
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: Creators and the consumers, you know, the the producers and

695
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: the consumers whatever.

696
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 4: Right, So.

697
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: I I actually think that's going to get like the

698
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: middle class I believe is going to continue to get

699
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: hollowed out.

700
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 4: And I don't think that trend is reversible in the

701
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 4: short term.

702
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: It'll be reversible later because after a couple of generations

703
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: you'll have the distribution of wealth again and you will

704
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: start to get a fatter middle class. But I actually

705
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: think we're going into an era, into an age where

706
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: that's going to separate further. My hypothesis is that six

707
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: or six and a half billion people are going to

708
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: be addicted to social media, scrolling their phones, not touching grass,

709
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: eating soy bugs, whatever. Like, they're sort of going to

710
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: move more in that direction. Now that's obviously a caricature,

711
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm sure that caricature will exist, but

712
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: they will move more in that direction, right, Like mindless

713
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: slop and they're just like downloading the slop from online

714
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: and that's it. They don't think for themselves anymore. Everything

715
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: is programmed. They'll take their next shot, they'll do all

716
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. But at the same time, there

717
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: will be these like this, you know, call it half

718
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: a billion people that are going to increase their sovereignty,

719
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: increase their location independence, increase their optionality.

720
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 4: They'll hold bitcoin, they'll eat meat, they'll.

721
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: You know, have babies, they'll you know that the fertility

722
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 1: rate amongst those half a billion people will probably five

723
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: times higher than the until your rate of these other

724
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: six billion, So you'll sort of get this like increasing bifurcation.

725
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: And I'm seeing that socially. I'm even predicting that on

726
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: a on a location basis, Like you're seeing places that

727
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,959
Speaker 1: are popping up like that are enclaves. You know, Florianopolis

728
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 1: in Brazil is one of these like enclaves. It's becoming

729
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: the place where all the wealthy and brazil are coming

730
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: and did every single weekend I drive around a new corner.

731
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: There's a new building being built, there's a new family

732
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: that's come here. There's like this place is pumping. Same

733
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: thing in Bali. You look at what Bali was.

734
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 4: Bali was just a.

735
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,479
Speaker 1: Freaking empty island with some Indonesians and some Dutch people.

736
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: And you know the Aussia is now the Russians came

737
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: in and that like Bali is pumping. Man, it's an

738
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 1: amazing place to be. You've got enclaves all throughout Mexico.

739
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: You've got Ibitha, You've got you know, the Greek Islands,

740
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: You've got Madera, You've got all these like sort of spots.

741
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: And I think what's going to happen is those spots

742
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: are going to become in high demand and they're going

743
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: to attract these sort of higher quality people that want

744
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: to connect and create these enclaves. So so that's sort

745
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: of my prediction is that this is going to stretch,

746
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 1: and we're gonna we're gonna have this separation and maybe

747
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: a couple generations after this, half a billion people that

748
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: have loads of kids are going to form the you know,

749
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: their descendants, they're going to form the new middle class.

750
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: And sort of of the six billion that you know,

751
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: lose their fertility rate and addicted to soil in bugs

752
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: and all this sort of stuff, that sort of those

753
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: lineages will kind of die out naturally. And that sounds

754
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: dark and I don't mean it in that way, but

755
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: that's sort of just nature is nature, right. I think

756
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: that's going to happen, and we're going to have this

757
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: new sort of formalization of a new middle class, of

758
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: a new low class, and of a new sort of

759
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: like aristocratic noble class, and the world is going to

760
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: sort of reset itself that way over the next hundred years.

761
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: This is the most formative time in human civilization, I

762
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: think for the last I don't know, at least five

763
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: hundred years, maybe a thousand years, maybe more.

764
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: I mean, you're somebody who's studied a lot of history

765
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: and a lot of cultures and civilizations, and when you

766
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: look back through the long lens of history, correct me

767
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, but it appears that there was only

768
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: one short period of time for maybe about one hundred years,

769
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 2: where there was a strong middle class, and that was

770
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: just through the Industrial Revolution. And so the Industrial Revolution

771
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: and particularly through the eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds,

772
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: is when we got the factories and the assembly lines,

773
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,800
Speaker 2: and the factories in the assembly lines brought everybody and

774
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 2: made everybody equal, because whether we're smarter or dumber, we

775
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: just put the cog on the wheel as it goes

776
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: by on the assembly belt, and it created these massive

777
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: middle classes. But again, correct me if I'm wrong, But

778
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: if you look through the long lens of history, you

779
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: sort of had two classes, and not in like you're

780
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 2: born into a cast and you can't move up. But

781
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: when you think about the types of jobs and the

782
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 2: type of income that you had, right, so you had

783
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 2: the land owners and the land workers. And today we've

784
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: gone into the information age and now potentially with AI

785
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 2: calling it the intelligence age. And so you know, Sam

786
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 2: Altman says that we could see the single the first

787
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: single person billion dollar company. And so now if I'm

788
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 2: willing to work harder, if I'm if the world is

789
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: creators and consumers, the creators create more than they than

790
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: they than they consume.

791
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 3: The consumers consume more than created, and so you have

792
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 3: like a war and buffet.

793
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 2: Why does he work till he's ninety three years old

794
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: as the president of the company when he's worth billions

795
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: of dollars.

796
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 3: Because he's a creator.

797
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: And if I have these tools, now I can continue

798
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: to create. And if if what you're saying is, you know,

799
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: six and a half billion or however many billions of people,

800
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: they just they're just plugged into the to the whatever

801
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 2: the matrix. It seems that separation between the haves and

802
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: the haves not just continues to get more out of

803
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 2: balance because there's nothing like that industrial revolution and the

804
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: assembly lines that builds that strong middle group. And again,

805
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: correct me if I'm wrong, but does history show that

806
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: is something that we would go back to.

807
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if we've had the kind of middle

808
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: class that we had in the last one hundred years,

809
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: because we had such a burgeoning population, like the population

810
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: you know, seven eight nine x of the last hundred years,

811
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: so there was like this explosion. I I think the

812
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 1: feudal system wasn't really the sort of the land owners

813
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: and just the land workers. There was actually you know,

814
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: multiple sort of layers. You had the artisans, you had

815
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: the nobles, you had the you know, you had the monarchy.

816
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: So there was a bit more of a strata associated

817
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: to it. Arguably, I know this one, this one will

818
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 1: require a bit of thinking. Honestly, I don't know the

819
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: correct answer here, but I just think it's going to

820
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: get way more stretched in the short term between the

821
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: producer and creators, haves and have nots, And I think

822
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: it's really going to just it's going to move into

823
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: two buckets before it stratifies again. And maybe maybe the

824
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: stratification won't have the same level of middle classes we

825
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: did during the Industrial age, because you know, that was

826
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: a bit more sort of hands on. But certainly I

827
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: think we'll over time, over a couple more generations, we'll

828
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: start to see an artist in generation pop up again.

829
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: This is my sort of my gut instinct. You'll have

830
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: people who, you know, for example, like imagine you've got

831
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: some descendants now and you sort of set your entire

832
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 1: lineage up for the next thousand years. You know, not

833
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: all of them are going to be you know, great

834
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: capital allocators. Some of them are going to be artists,

835
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: some of them are going to be bumped some of it.

836
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: Like you know, you'll sort of have this kind of

837
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: stratification that will once again emerge. But I think that'll

838
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: emerge from the class that is going to be the

839
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: haves over the next fifty years. Right, it'll it'll come

840
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: from those people. It won't come from the automn it

841
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: won't come from the six and a half billion.

842
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's my that's my sort of thinking.

843
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: Sort of like a generational theory for fourth turning sort

844
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: of model something there.

845
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should probably think this through further and write

846
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: an essay or something on it. To get my head

847
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: around it.

848
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting, what do you think about technology?

849
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: And since we're on this pulling this thread, and I

850
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: don't know how much thought you've put into it, but

851
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: an AI taking away all the jobs and being so

852
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: smart that nobody has any work anymore, and we need,

853
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 2: you know, universal basic income for everybody to give them

854
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 2: money because there's just no jobs available for them to do.

855
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 4: What do I think, ah man?

856
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: I think the only thing that's unlimited is human ingenuity

857
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: and human desire. I think we always want what we

858
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 1: can have, and no matter what you take away and automate,

859
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: you know, infinite creativity will find something else to do

860
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: with ourselves. So as we I mean, I just I

861
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: bucket AI to the same category as every single prior

862
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: automation that we had, from the plow through to the

863
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: tractor through to everything else. Like what we've done is

864
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: with automated things. And look, there's a cost to all automation.

865
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: You and I spoke about this in Prague, right like

866
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: you if you sort of build a factory to automate

867
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: the creation of a trinket, what will happen over a

868
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: couple generations is will lose the physical dexterity to build

869
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: it with our own hands. You know, like we'll lose

870
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: the craftsmanship, but we will have gained the ability to

871
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: mass produce those things.

872
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 3: Is that better or worse?

873
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: You know, depending on which way you look at it.

874
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: You know, everything sort of has a cost. What that

875
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: will do, though, is if you create the factories that

876
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: mass produce these things and all the sort of stuff,

877
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: it'll actually create the desire for the people to build

878
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: it with their hands, and it'll create a marketplace for

879
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: the artisans to come and train themselves up again. So

880
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: like every time you create a vacuum of something, the

881
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: human condition drives us towards wanting to recreate the thing

882
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: that we're that we're missing. And you know kind of

883
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: what I said earlier about social media and social networks,

884
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: you know, like we've gone to created all this social media,

885
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: like the trend win that way, and now there's a

886
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: vacuum for social networks. You would not believe the amount

887
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: of people I talked to they're like, man, all I

888
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: want to do is open up an app and find

889
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: a place to eat that my friends have recommended open

890
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: up Instagram. And I realized one hour later that I'm

891
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: still fucking scrolling. Yeah, why you know, And it's like,

892
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: you know, so now I want to sort of fill

893
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: that vacuum with something else. So I feel like the

894
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: idea that AI is going to take it all away

895
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 1: and we need you bi and all this sort of stuff,

896
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: I think it's it's a gross misunderstanding of how of

897
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: the human condition.

898
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 4: I think the human condition is much more complex.

899
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with you one hundred percent on that.

900
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: When we wrote the Communist Manifesto, you would use the

901
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: word letedtite, and I wasn't even super familiar with what

902
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: that word was. But this is the same argument as

903
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,439
Speaker 2: the Luddites, which we're afraid that technology would take away

904
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 2: all the jobs. And this is now the six technological

905
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 2: revolution that we've gone through, and every single one people

906
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: were afraid of it taking away all the jobs. And

907
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: I think it's warranted because there is disruption. Jobs are taken,

908
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 2: but new jobs are created, and so I think it's

909
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: a lack of understanding to your point, like sort of

910
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 2: the human condition, but it's also a lack of understanding

911
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 2: of how capitalism works. And so each wave creates entirely

912
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: new sectors.

913
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 3: That we didn't know about.

914
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: So you're thinking about things in a vacuum, Well, it

915
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: gets rid of all these jobs, yes, but it creates

916
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: all these new ones that we didn't even think about.

917
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, now we have automobiles, and

918
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: so we have this entire automobile industry that wasn't there

919
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: before the car. So they did put the buggy makers

920
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: out of business. But look how big the automobile industry

921
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: is today, right software of the Internet, and so it

922
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: creates industries that we haven't even thought of. But what

923
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 2: it also does is it creates consumer demand that wasn't there,

924
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: so we have lower costs and higher quality, and then

925
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: we get larger markets, which then creates more jobs because

926
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 2: of that. So like when in the eighties when cell

927
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 2: phones were just made, they were like big bricks and

928
00:46:58,480 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, they are thirty grand or whatever hear,

929
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: anybody had them. But today, look how many people probably

930
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: on Amazon make money just selling like cases for an

931
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 2: iPhone that you know what I mean. And so it's

932
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 2: like more, more, more, cheaper, better, larger markets, more jobs.

933
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: And so yeah, in a vacuum, yes, it takes away

934
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: those jobs, but look how many more get created on

935
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: every single one. So all of the facts, all of

936
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: the data points to that there is no basis for

937
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: thinking that there is no future of that. And the

938
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: last thing I'd say is back to that human condition.

939
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: If you think about the only reason why we'd ever

940
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: give somebody money is if they've provided value, which is

941
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: typically solved the problem for me, I'm hungry, they solve

942
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: my hunger. I give them food, et cetera. And so

943
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: they're solving problems, right, And I don't imagine any future

944
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: where humans no longer have problems totally. Yeah, problems are infinite, right,

945
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: and it is Solf will probably get the next problem, right,

946
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 2: So it's like there's just no future for that.

947
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 4: So long as we have women in the world.

948
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: Problems are So I always always tease my wife about this.

949
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, everything is fine and then like all of

950
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: a sudden, something will like go wrong and should be

951
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: like I'm freaking out about something. But I think, look,

952
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: the reality is, like, let me give one little example

953
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: before we move on, is even let's take this to

954
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: the extreme, like AI and robotics and all this sort

955
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 1: of figure out how to do everything like provide you

956
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: with food and you know, you go to a restaurant,

957
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 1: everything is automated. You know, there's no one in the kitchen,

958
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: none of this sort of stuff. I guarantee you in

959
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: that kind of a world, the person who goes and

960
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: opens up a restaurant and says we have no AI,

961
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 1: no robots, and we have paper menus, that restaurant would

962
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: fucking pop right. Everyone will be there because they're gonna

963
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: want the handmade food. Like literally, every single innovation in

964
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: one direction creates a vacuum in another. And I think

965
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: that's the part that people need to sort of internalize

966
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: when they're trying to understand this, is that human beings

967
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,919
Speaker 1: are infinitely creative, and in our infinite creativity, we create

968
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: infinite problems, and then we need to create infinite numbers

969
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: of solutions to those problems. No amount of AI I

970
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: can have a deal with infinity. It doesn't matter how

971
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: good the AI gets. We will always come up with

972
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: something you to do and some different nuance of variation

973
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: to do it in. And that means there'll be a need,

974
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: they'll be a demand, and they'll be a supply. To

975
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 1: feel that simple as that, Yeah, well let's let's let's

976
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: let's kind of wrap this up.

977
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 3: But I want to think about. So, obviously you're building

978
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 3: sat lanis.

979
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 2: I think it's an amazing tool, and I've certainly seen

980
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: the shift you're talking about from people wanting more of

981
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 2: that human connection. I do a lot of little events

982
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: and even big events, and I've seen a lot of

983
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: people returning back to those craving that human desire. So

984
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 2: it's that pendulum that swings back and forth. I guess,

985
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 2: you know, from an investor standpoint, or it's kind of

986
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 2: thinking about moving to where the puck is going to be,

987
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: So like, where is that pendulum going to swing back to.

988
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: So if Bitcoin was sort of like a hedge against

989
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: monetary debasement, do you think sat lanis is sort of

990
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: like a hedge against lack of trust or trust in

991
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 2: social platforms.

992
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so.

993
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 1: I think that's one way to frame it. I think

994
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: it's also a the Puck analogy is a good one

995
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: to use. Is if we make the assumption, or if

996
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 1: we can agree that this movement towards more connection, more community,

997
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,919
Speaker 1: more curation is going to continue to increase, at least,

998
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: as I said, with a subset of the population might

999
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: not be all seven billion people on the planet, but

1000
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: at least like half a billion that want to do

1001
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: more stuff in the real world, want to connect with

1002
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: real people, want to go to places, want to curate.

1003
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: You know, they're not interested in chat GBT giving them

1004
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: a list of top ten places, like they want to

1005
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: know who their friends said.

1006
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: Like.

1007
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: If we agree that that is going to be a trend,

1008
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: then that's the puck that I'm trying to catch, and

1009
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: in my opinion, that's going to continue to accelerate. The

1010
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: desire for social networks once again online is going to

1011
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: continue to increase, and the desire for real man, what's

1012
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 1: the word here, like like real recommendation and connection. I'm

1013
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: lacking a word that sort of encompasses both of those.

1014
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: But that piece, in my opinion, is going to be

1015
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: where the value is at. And if we can surface

1016
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: that for people through through an application, I think we

1017
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 1: we're onto something big here. And I mean I don't

1018
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: want to get off onto too much of a tangent here,

1019
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: but once you wrap like sort of bitcoin in there

1020
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: and you start to create like a marketplace element to

1021
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: it for communities, for creators, for events, like we're about

1022
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: to roll out the bitcoin ticketing inside the app, So

1023
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna we have some big partnerships announced with some

1024
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: with some or sorry not announced but tied up that

1025
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: will announce over the next two months with some big

1026
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 1: bitcoin conferences where we're going to become the satellite event

1027
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: partner for all of these major conferences. So that way

1028
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: when people come to these conferences, when they register for

1029
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: side events, they can see who of their friends, who

1030
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: of the people they're connected to, and everything are going there.

1031
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: They can pay with bitcoin. So Atlanta is going to

1032
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: have a wallet in built in it as well, so

1033
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: that way people who are running the events they can

1034
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 1: earn bitcoin in there and kind of like start to

1035
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: establish an entirely parallel social network, economy, product discovery system,

1036
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff. It starts to become very

1037
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: very interesting, very compelling over the coming years.

1038
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: If I could see who I know is going to

1039
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: that event, that'd be super helpful. That'd be a great feature.

1040
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: Cool Well, alex uh a couple good reads, get the

1041
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 2: Bashido Bitcoin you can see the book there behind them,

1042
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: and get the Uncommerce Manifesto of course, the book we

1043
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 2: wrote together if you haven't gotten that.

1044
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,720
Speaker 3: Already, But tell us where people can learn more about Atlantis.

1045
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 1: For sure, so obviously people should go and just check

1046
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: out the websites Atlantis do. It is going through a

1047
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: big revamp, so I don't know when this episode is

1048
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: going to go live, but the revamp will move the

1049
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 1: app a little bit away from the destination centric focus

1050
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: we have at the moment. It'll become more of a

1051
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: global focus where you can host events, discover events, places, collections,

1052
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: all that kind of thing. You will also notice on

1053
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: there we're doing actually a crowdfund, so if people like

1054
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: the idea, like the concept, reach out to me, or

1055
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: you can go and check outre We're doing an equity

1056
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: crowdfund on Timestamp, which gives people the opportunity to own

1057
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: a piece of so Atlantis early on. So we're going

1058
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: to do a big institutional series a next year, but

1059
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: we're opening it up to the retail market to jump

1060
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: in and own a piece and then find me on

1061
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: so Atlantis actually Solantis dot I ford slash Swetski. I've

1062
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: got my social profile there. I'm most active there these days,

1063
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: and I'm also still active obviously on Twitter. So Swetski writes,

1064
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: and yeah, if you want to check out the book

1065
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: Bashido Bitcoin dot com, that's over there as.

1066
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 2: Well we'll link to all that in the show notes

1067
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 2: down below. Well, that will wrap it up.

1068
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 4: Thanks Alex, thanks great, good to see again, man,