Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: If you're landing here for the first time, best to
Speaker 2: go back and start this story at episode one.
Speaker 3: It's the morning after I found my brother's ex wife,
Speaker 3: Leslie in a Californian car park. How'd you sleep, Simon?
Speaker 3: And I wake up in a cheap motel.
Speaker 4: No crazy dreams last night.
Speaker 3: The bed sheets are thin and crumple like crepe paper.
Speaker 3: We're still buzzing out.
Speaker 4: It's more of a crazy dream all day, really, eh.
Speaker 3: We lie there debriefing my chat with Leslie?
Speaker 1: How are you.
Speaker 2: Feeling about what you said now?
Speaker 4: As in like I was kind of convinced, and well,
Speaker 4: I wasn't convinced, but I definitely yeah, yeah, I'm not conned.
Speaker 4: I'm not convinced, but I do. I did feel sorry
Speaker 4: for Leslie, and I felt that there was genuine sadness
Speaker 4: and maybe even a touch of remorse from her side
Speaker 4: of things. But having slept on it, even just for
Speaker 4: a few hours, I think that her sadness and her
Speaker 4: remorse is like I think she recognized that her life
Speaker 4: is not what she wanted it to be, or even
Speaker 4: perhaps what it could be, and she kind of like
Speaker 4: looked up at me like almost like you know, she
Speaker 4: was going, please, don't make me face all of this stuff.
Speaker 4: And I think what I was feeling is I felt
Speaker 4: bad for doing that.
Speaker 3: Am I just being charmed like everyone else in this story?
Speaker 3: From the brief chat I had with Leslie, it's hard
Speaker 3: to tell I'd left her with the plan to meet
Speaker 3: up and go through everything in detail. If we can
Speaker 3: sit down and talk, I won't have to rush through
Speaker 3: my questions. Maybe I can get her to talk about
Speaker 3: what she really meant when she said things weren't totally kosher,
Speaker 3: and instead of going slowly, I can just straight up
Speaker 3: ask her if she did stuff like inventor fake lawyer
Speaker 3: Eric t Weiss to fool people. If she can really
Speaker 3: answer it all of this stuff, she'll turn up. So
Speaker 3: I sent Leslie a text suggesting that we meet up
Speaker 3: at the Starbucks near the supermarket she works at, and
Speaker 3: she's just sent me a text back. So here it is, Hi, Ollie,
Speaker 3: and good morning. It was really good to see you too.
Speaker 3: I hope you understand. All the things you asked about
Speaker 3: is all ten plus years ago, and I have moved
Speaker 3: on from all of it, and so has my parents. Okay,
Speaker 3: Cameron's story is actually from about six years ago. But anyway,
Speaker 3: I appreciate you want both sides, but in all fairness,
Speaker 3: you should have reached out way before. Twelve years later.
Speaker 3: I am past all the pain, lies, deceit, and loneliness
Speaker 3: my decisions have created for me, and I've laid it
Speaker 3: all to rest. I really have thought long and hard
Speaker 3: through the night and decided that I do not wish
Speaker 3: to bring it all back. I wish you all the best, Ollie,
Speaker 3: and good luck with all your ventures. Hmmm, so I
Speaker 3: guess that's it. We won't be seeing Leslie again. For
Speaker 3: the final episode of the season of Unravel, I'm Ollie
Speaker 3: Ward's and this is Snowball. I wasn't really in the
Speaker 3: mood for asking any more questions, but we had already
Speaker 3: planned one more stop on our road trip, a beautiful
Speaker 3: beachside town just down the road where Leslie had worked.
Speaker 3: When we got there, Simon had a beer in the
Speaker 3: bar and told some people why we were in town.
Speaker 3: Word went round, and then a lady approached me. She
Speaker 3: said she had known Leslie.
Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, we were very close. Actually you can be
Speaker 5: to her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. She had all the familiar stories about Leslie,
Speaker 3: having tall tales of successful international restaurants and a trust fund.
Speaker 3: But to be honest, I was over it. More of
Speaker 3: the same wasn't going to help me understand everything. Then,
Speaker 3: just as we were wrapping up, she said something that
Speaker 3: really hit me. I might just grab it.
Speaker 4: So can you just say that again?
Speaker 5: She was homeless for a time for most of the
Speaker 5: time she was working here this last time because she
Speaker 5: slept at the campgrounds. And she's because I helped her
Speaker 5: remove a camper to the campground and she slept in
Speaker 5: the back of her car. And then she slept over
Speaker 5: at a hotel because I remember going over there and
Speaker 5: having pizza with her, and so I know she didn't
Speaker 5: have a place to live here.
Speaker 3: It's really sad.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And why was she sort of homeless if she
Speaker 4: had a job here and was working.
Speaker 6: I don't know.
Speaker 5: She was always looking for a place.
Speaker 3: As I walked back to the hotel room, I turned
Speaker 3: my recorder on. That doesn't make me feel good, like
Speaker 3: nobody should be homeless. I feel sad that Leslie's going
Speaker 3: through her life, going from opportunities and circumstances like living
Speaker 3: in Medicana in New Zealand, right down to sleeping in
Speaker 3: her car, maybe in a beautiful place, but nobody deserves
Speaker 3: to be homeless. And I just really hope that, I
Speaker 3: don't know, something can jolt out of this, because she's
Speaker 3: not winning out of any of us. When Simon came back,
Speaker 3: I told him what I had found out. The saddest
Speaker 3: thing was she said that when Leslie was here, she
Speaker 3: was homeless.
Speaker 2: Shit that sucks. Just ed like I just, you know,
Speaker 2: we were saying kind of like this kind of existence
Speaker 2: must be traumatic and fucking sad and just torrible and
Speaker 2: just kind of like, yep, I'm not surprised when you
Speaker 2: say that, Like my heart sinks a little bit. I'm like, fuck,
Speaker 2: you don't really wish that kind of shit on anyone,
Speaker 2: even if they've kind of done you wrong and stuff like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, like that's sad, that's sad, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean.
Speaker 3: I guess I thought this whole thing was going to
Speaker 3: wrap up neatly like a movie. Being in America, running
Speaker 3: around doing this investigation, it often feels like I'm in
Speaker 3: a movie, the car, the accents, So I was kind
Speaker 3: of expecting all my questions answered and tied up in
Speaker 3: a pretty bow. Instead, things feel complicated. I didn't expect
Speaker 3: to end up feeling sorry for Leslie, but I kind
Speaker 3: of do. She has brought a lot of this on herself.
Speaker 3: It's just her situation. I kind of feel sorry for
Speaker 3: some of the people that she hurt took years to recover,
Speaker 3: but they're all mostly back on their feet. It's Leslie
Speaker 3: that seems to be in this cycle of starting over
Speaker 3: again with nothing. If it turns out Leslie's biggest victim
Speaker 3: is herself, then why would she keep the cycle going.
Speaker 3: That's what still doesn't make sense to me. But then
Speaker 3: I remember something that came up when I spoke to
Speaker 3: the psychologist Maria Konnikova. What motivates the con Because in
Speaker 3: our case, Leslie didn't get away with a whole lot
Speaker 3: of money.
Speaker 7: And that is not at all uncommon. I think it's
Speaker 7: a huge misperception among the public that con artists are
Speaker 7: motivated by money. I really think that's not it at all,
Speaker 7: because for the most part, con artists don't make a
Speaker 7: lot of money and are incredibly intelligent and could have
Speaker 7: made much more money in more legitimate professions, and so
Speaker 7: I don't actually think it's about financial gain at all.
Speaker 7: I think that why they do it is power. They're
Speaker 7: motivated in the sense of power over other people, control
Speaker 7: over other people's lives, the idea that they're shaping other
Speaker 7: people's reality in a way that they want to shape it.
Speaker 7: This is something that can be incredibly intoxicating. And I
Speaker 7: think that that feeling of power is actually one of
Speaker 7: the reasons that con artists are more often than not,
Speaker 7: and by more often than not, I mean, like you,
Speaker 7: over ninety percent of cases, true con artists are repeat defenders,
Speaker 7: and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak,
Speaker 7: they don't take it. They can't take it, even though
Speaker 7: they say they will, and the will and they want to,
Speaker 7: because they're always driven back to that and they are
Speaker 7: unable to let go of that rush of power over
Speaker 7: other people. I mean, it is intoxicating if you think
Speaker 7: about it. You're playing god, You're controlling other people's lives,
Speaker 7: You're crafting their realities. You're creating entire worlds, and people believe.
Speaker 3: You creating entire worlds like the world of Eric t Weiss.
Speaker 3: Leslie could control all of that. Maybe that's what this
Speaker 3: was about, not money, but a feeling of control, a
Speaker 3: feeling of power. Oh and remember what Leslie said about
Speaker 3: putting me in touch with Eric.
Speaker 5: Like I said, I haven't talked to him in a
Speaker 5: couple of years, but I can give you the last
Speaker 5: known number for him.
Speaker 7: I'd be happy to no problem.
Speaker 3: I followed up over text and asked Leslie for Eric's number.
Speaker 3: She never gave me one, So I guess that means
Speaker 3: that her old mate, Eric t weiss Esquire will be
Speaker 3: lost to her story fictional history. That leaves one more
Speaker 3: question that's been on my mind all along. It might
Speaker 3: be the most troubling question of my investigation. Where to
Speaker 3: Leslie's parents fit in.
Speaker 7: We'll be right back.
Speaker 3: Doctor Kannakova doesn't know Leslie or her parents, but she
Speaker 3: said something that gave me a new perspective on what
Speaker 3: it might be like to be in their position.
Speaker 7: Oftentimes, you know, people like the parents aren't in on
Speaker 7: the con as such, but they've been deceived. You have
Speaker 7: to remember, they've been living with a con artist for
Speaker 7: their for the entire life of that con artist, and
Speaker 7: it's their daughter, So you have an emotional involvement. And
Speaker 7: if you who are you know? Who didn't know Leslie
Speaker 7: when she was younger and had no kind of family
Speaker 7: or blood ties initially, If you were able to be
Speaker 7: pulled into her web. Just imagine how difficult it is
Speaker 7: if you're related to her, if you have kind of
Speaker 7: the closest relationship of all, I think it could be
Speaker 7: incredibly difficult. And I think that those are families are
Speaker 7: often the biggest victims of con artists, and we'll defend
Speaker 7: their children, will defend their loved ones to the end.
Speaker 3: I did try to speak with Leslie's parents, Betty and Andrew.
Speaker 1: At the towne.
Speaker 8: Please leave a message for.
Speaker 4: This is Betty.
Speaker 8: We're not available right at the moment.
Speaker 7: Please leave a message.
Speaker 8: Record your message at the towne.
Speaker 4: Hi, Betty, it's Ollie Ward's here. You might remember me,
Speaker 4: Gregg's little brother. I'm sure Leslie has told you that
Speaker 4: I am reporting a story just regarding.
Speaker 3: I also emailed them and sent them a letter. No response.
Speaker 3: Leslie might have told them not to talk to me.
Speaker 3: After some friendly texts back and forth with Leslie, things
Speaker 3: had turned sour. Started to find out how many people
Speaker 3: we had spoken to for this podcast, and in particular
Speaker 3: in that last town we went to. Leslie heard that
Speaker 3: we had mentioned some of the allegations about her to
Speaker 3: some people at her old work, and she was not happy.
Speaker 3: About it.
Speaker 4: Okay, A text message has just come in from Leslie
Speaker 4: after not hearing from her for a little while. Um,
Speaker 4: she says, lose my number. A journalist doesn't slander a
Speaker 4: person's character at their old workplace. This is not a
Speaker 4: story for your podcast. This is revenge trip. So fucked Ollie.
Speaker 4: After all these years, you reach out to me or
Speaker 4: my parents, ever, and I will file a restraining order
Speaker 4: against you, Simon and whoever else. I need to.
Speaker 2: Restraining orders on us and everything. Now.
Speaker 3: Of course, you know heavy, oh Man, cheaper is What
Speaker 3: Leslie didn't know was that revenge couldn't have been further
Speaker 3: from our minds. When I set out on this trip,
Speaker 3: I wanted to understand what happened and to get Leslie's
Speaker 3: side of the story. It was important to get her
Speaker 3: response to people all over the world saying she had
Speaker 3: conned them. But at the end of our trip, I've
Speaker 3: realized Leslie isn't some sort of two dimensional movie villain.
Speaker 3: She's a complex person with motives. Maybe she doesn't even
Speaker 3: fully understand, and maybe the person who has suffered the
Speaker 3: most from what Leslie has done is Leslie herself. So
Speaker 3: I don't feel vengeful. I just feel sad, sad for Leslie,
Speaker 3: sad for everyone who felt deceived and devastated by her,
Speaker 3: and sad for my brother Greg. I didn't know if
Speaker 3: Greg would react like I did, so I told him
Speaker 3: that Leslie might have been homeless.
Speaker 8: It's hard to feel sorry for someone when they clearly
Speaker 8: have choices. And the thing with Leslie is she's had
Speaker 8: lots and lots and lots of choices. So her being
Speaker 8: homeless supposedly that's bad, but that will be a consequence
Speaker 8: of her actions, which will have affected lots of other
Speaker 8: people around her, who let's call them the victims, So
Speaker 8: that drops my sympathy down quite a few notches.
Speaker 3: Around that time when Leslie might have been homeless, Greg
Speaker 3: had got himself back on his feet.
Speaker 8: So where I did get to was a lucky place.
Speaker 8: I have a beautiful, highly supportive, intelligent wife, and we
Speaker 8: have a pretty magical young daughter, and then we live
Speaker 8: in a beautiful suburb. I've got a good job that
Speaker 8: provides for us, and all of the good things are
Speaker 8: ahead of us in life.
Speaker 3: As for my mum and dad, they were mostly able
Speaker 3: to move on too, and in case that happened after
Speaker 3: Leslie left New Zealand. Mum and dad sued the lawyer
Speaker 3: who worked on the Dragonfly deal. The matter was settled
Speaker 3: before it went to court. I can't say much about
Speaker 3: it for legal reasons, but it worked out that Mum
Speaker 3: and Dad were able to get enough money to buy
Speaker 3: a home of their own again. Dad had to go
Speaker 3: back to work. But after a few years of tough times,
Speaker 3: my parents got back to being happy where they are.
Speaker 3: They even reflect on some good that came out of everything.
Speaker 9: And now we honestly have moved on and don't really
Speaker 9: think about that time much at all. It was a
Speaker 9: very proops almost you could say, another defining moment for
Speaker 9: our family. I think in many ways it brought us
Speaker 9: all together, not that we were apart, but it spu
Speaker 9: sputted us in pretty well.
Speaker 1: Actually, for me, it's a gratitude. It's nothing to do
Speaker 1: with her. It's how loved and cared for that we are,
Speaker 1: that so many people cared for us, for the immediate family.
Speaker 1: They were so amazingly brilliant, and you three for sticking
Speaker 1: with it and holding us up. And at least we've
Speaker 1: got something to talk about at dinner parties, so they're
Speaker 1: not entirely free of us, not.
Speaker 9: That we talk about it now at dinner parties.
Speaker 1: We don't have dinner parties.
Speaker 6: We're too old.
Speaker 3: And like he always does, my brother Simon and sums
Speaker 3: it up for us.
Speaker 2: I'm actually really proud of us through it as well.
Speaker 2: I don't know, like a big thing of this was
Speaker 2: just how you know, and I always I always repeat it,
Speaker 2: but kind of I don't. The reason that I don't
Speaker 2: feel angry with her or kind of forgiven her is
Speaker 2: just because of how close it made us, you know,
Speaker 2: we changed as a family through this, and so yeah,
Speaker 2: so I just yeah, I'm just I love look of
Speaker 2: you guys came out of it.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: For almost a year now, I haven't been able to
Speaker 3: talk to my family without it being about this podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to going back to talking about the
Speaker 3: usual stuff like how to turn the video on.
Speaker 6: Here we go. Ollie wants to connect with you on Skype,
Speaker 6: except well, well we've got contact. Yeah, so hear me,
Speaker 6: can't see me. I can see you.
Speaker 3: And hear you, and I need to call Greg Moore.
Speaker 3: I don't catch up with my brother nearly enough. This
Speaker 3: whole thing has been a good reason and for us
Speaker 3: to talk for me to understand something so profound in
Speaker 3: his life. But it's been hard sometimes to draw a
Speaker 3: line between my brother and the story I'm trying to tell.
Speaker 3: One time Greg called me and he started to cry.
Speaker 3: He was telling me about how he still feels pain
Speaker 3: from what happened. Part of my brain was thinking, I
Speaker 3: need to record this, call him back with the recorder on.
Speaker 3: But the rest of me was thinking, my brother is
Speaker 3: upset right now, and I need to be there for him.
Speaker 3: You didn't hear that call because I stayed on the
Speaker 3: line with him. To Greg, I'm not a journalist reporting
Speaker 3: his story. I'm his brother. The story started with him,
Speaker 3: and it needs to end with him. I asked Greg
Speaker 3: to think about what he's taken away from this whole experience.
Speaker 8: The important things are the things that are pretty close
Speaker 8: to you, like family and friends and what can fulfill
Speaker 8: you and make you happy. A lot of those things
Speaker 8: are actually right in front of most people right now.
Speaker 8: Things like being able to wake up on our weekend
Speaker 8: and walk your daughter down to the local school so
Speaker 8: she can play on the playground. You don't need to
Speaker 8: have a Ferrari to drive her there. It didn't need
Speaker 8: to be a life in the fast lane. The good
Speaker 8: life is hopefully what most people can get, and that
Speaker 8: is living on a regular street, doing regular things and
Speaker 8: working hard for them. I think that's what it comes
Speaker 8: down to, and there's a beauty simplicity that's hard to
Speaker 8: replace with money and possessions they ultimately don't really satisfy.
Speaker 8: I don't think what really matters was always here and
Speaker 8: it was actually right in front of me.
Speaker 3: I really hope you've enjoyed coming along for this ride.
Speaker 3: You can find a bunch of extras, including a feature
Speaker 3: article and the video of my confrontation with Leslie, at
Speaker 3: the ABC's Unraveled True Crime website. You can hit me
Speaker 3: up on Instagram at Ollie Ward's and if you share
Speaker 3: this story, please use the hashtag Unravel true Crime roll.
Speaker 3: The credits music Snowball is hosted and produced by me
Speaker 3: Ollie Wards. Big love to my brother Greg and my
Speaker 3: entire family for letting me tell this story, and thank
Speaker 3: you so much to the awesome team I got to
Speaker 3: work with, including Unravel's supervising producer Tim Roxborough, audio producer
Speaker 3: Emma Lancaster, fact checking and additional audio production from Shane Anderson,
Speaker 3: sound designers John Jacobs and Tim Jenkins, the biggest of
Speaker 3: US to flight facilities for our themes on additional music
Speaker 3: Bryce Halliday. Unravel is a product of ABC Audio Studios,
Speaker 3: led by Kelly Reardon and Unravel's executive producer is Ian Walker.
Speaker 5: Why wait wait wait wait wait wait, You'll never really
Speaker 5: know what was real or not