WEBVTT - Snowball - Episode 7: The Morning After

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're landing here for the first time, best to

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<v Speaker 2>go back and start this story at episode one.

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<v Speaker 3>It's the morning after I found my brother's ex wife,

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<v Speaker 3>Leslie in a Californian car park. How'd you sleep, Simon?

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<v Speaker 3>And I wake up in a cheap motel.

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<v Speaker 4>No crazy dreams last night.

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<v Speaker 3>The bed sheets are thin and crumple like crepe paper.

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<v Speaker 3>We're still buzzing out.

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<v Speaker 4>It's more of a crazy dream all day, really, eh.

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<v Speaker 3>We lie there debriefing my chat with Leslie?

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<v Speaker 1>How are you.

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<v Speaker 2>Feeling about what you said now?

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<v Speaker 4>As in like I was kind of convinced, and well,

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<v Speaker 4>I wasn't convinced, but I definitely yeah, yeah, I'm not conned.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not convinced, but I do. I did feel sorry

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<v Speaker 4>for Leslie, and I felt that there was genuine sadness

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<v Speaker 4>and maybe even a touch of remorse from her side

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<v Speaker 4>of things. But having slept on it, even just for

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<v Speaker 4>a few hours, I think that her sadness and her

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<v Speaker 4>remorse is like I think she recognized that her life

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<v Speaker 4>is not what she wanted it to be, or even

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<v Speaker 4>perhaps what it could be, and she kind of like

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<v Speaker 4>looked up at me like almost like you know, she

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<v Speaker 4>was going, please, don't make me face all of this stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think what I was feeling is I felt

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<v Speaker 4>bad for doing that.

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<v Speaker 3>Am I just being charmed like everyone else in this story?

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<v Speaker 3>From the brief chat I had with Leslie, it's hard

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<v Speaker 3>to tell I'd left her with the plan to meet

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<v Speaker 3>up and go through everything in detail. If we can

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<v Speaker 3>sit down and talk, I won't have to rush through

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<v Speaker 3>my questions. Maybe I can get her to talk about

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<v Speaker 3>what she really meant when she said things weren't totally kosher,

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<v Speaker 3>and instead of going slowly, I can just straight up

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<v Speaker 3>ask her if she did stuff like inventor fake lawyer

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<v Speaker 3>Eric t Weiss to fool people. If she can really

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<v Speaker 3>answer it all of this stuff, she'll turn up. So

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<v Speaker 3>I sent Leslie a text suggesting that we meet up

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<v Speaker 3>at the Starbucks near the supermarket she works at, and

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<v Speaker 3>she's just sent me a text back. So here it is, Hi, Ollie,

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<v Speaker 3>and good morning. It was really good to see you too.

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<v Speaker 3>I hope you understand. All the things you asked about

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<v Speaker 3>is all ten plus years ago, and I have moved

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<v Speaker 3>on from all of it, and so has my parents. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>Cameron's story is actually from about six years ago. But anyway,

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciate you want both sides, but in all fairness,

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<v Speaker 3>you should have reached out way before. Twelve years later.

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<v Speaker 3>I am past all the pain, lies, deceit, and loneliness

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<v Speaker 3>my decisions have created for me, and I've laid it

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<v Speaker 3>all to rest. I really have thought long and hard

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<v Speaker 3>through the night and decided that I do not wish

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<v Speaker 3>to bring it all back. I wish you all the best, Ollie,

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<v Speaker 3>and good luck with all your ventures. Hmmm, so I

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<v Speaker 3>guess that's it. We won't be seeing Leslie again. For

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<v Speaker 3>the final episode of the season of Unravel, I'm Ollie

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<v Speaker 3>Ward's and this is Snowball. I wasn't really in the

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<v Speaker 3>mood for asking any more questions, but we had already

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<v Speaker 3>planned one more stop on our road trip, a beautiful

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<v Speaker 3>beachside town just down the road where Leslie had worked.

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<v Speaker 3>When we got there, Simon had a beer in the

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<v Speaker 3>bar and told some people why we were in town.

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<v Speaker 3>Word went round, and then a lady approached me. She

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<v Speaker 3>said she had known Leslie.

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<v Speaker 5>Oh, yeah, we were very close. Actually you can be

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<v Speaker 5>to her.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay. She had all the familiar stories about Leslie,

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<v Speaker 3>having tall tales of successful international restaurants and a trust fund.

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<v Speaker 3>But to be honest, I was over it. More of

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<v Speaker 3>the same wasn't going to help me understand everything. Then,

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<v Speaker 3>just as we were wrapping up, she said something that

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<v Speaker 3>really hit me. I might just grab it.

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<v Speaker 4>So can you just say that again?

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<v Speaker 5>She was homeless for a time for most of the

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<v Speaker 5>time she was working here this last time because she

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<v Speaker 5>slept at the campgrounds. And she's because I helped her

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<v Speaker 5>remove a camper to the campground and she slept in

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<v Speaker 5>the back of her car. And then she slept over

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<v Speaker 5>at a hotel because I remember going over there and

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<v Speaker 5>having pizza with her, and so I know she didn't

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<v Speaker 5>have a place to live here.

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<v Speaker 3>It's really sad.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And why was she sort of homeless if she

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<v Speaker 4>had a job here and was working.

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<v Speaker 6>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 5>She was always looking for a place.

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<v Speaker 3>As I walked back to the hotel room, I turned

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<v Speaker 3>my recorder on. That doesn't make me feel good, like

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<v Speaker 3>nobody should be homeless. I feel sad that Leslie's going

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<v Speaker 3>through her life, going from opportunities and circumstances like living

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<v Speaker 3>in Medicana in New Zealand, right down to sleeping in

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<v Speaker 3>her car, maybe in a beautiful place, but nobody deserves

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<v Speaker 3>to be homeless. And I just really hope that, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know, something can jolt out of this, because she's

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<v Speaker 3>not winning out of any of us. When Simon came back,

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<v Speaker 3>I told him what I had found out. The saddest

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<v Speaker 3>thing was she said that when Leslie was here, she

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<v Speaker 3>was homeless.

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<v Speaker 2>Shit that sucks. Just ed like I just, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we were saying kind of like this kind of existence

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<v Speaker 2>must be traumatic and fucking sad and just torrible and

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<v Speaker 2>just kind of like, yep, I'm not surprised when you

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<v Speaker 2>say that, Like my heart sinks a little bit. I'm like, fuck,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't really wish that kind of shit on anyone,

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<v Speaker 2>even if they've kind of done you wrong and stuff like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, like that's sad, that's sad, you know

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<v Speaker 2>what I mean.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess I thought this whole thing was going to

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<v Speaker 3>wrap up neatly like a movie. Being in America, running

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<v Speaker 3>around doing this investigation, it often feels like I'm in

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<v Speaker 3>a movie, the car, the accents, So I was kind

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<v Speaker 3>of expecting all my questions answered and tied up in

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<v Speaker 3>a pretty bow. Instead, things feel complicated. I didn't expect

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<v Speaker 3>to end up feeling sorry for Leslie, but I kind

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<v Speaker 3>of do. She has brought a lot of this on herself.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just her situation. I kind of feel sorry for

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<v Speaker 3>some of the people that she hurt took years to recover,

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<v Speaker 3>but they're all mostly back on their feet. It's Leslie

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<v Speaker 3>that seems to be in this cycle of starting over

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<v Speaker 3>again with nothing. If it turns out Leslie's biggest victim

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<v Speaker 3>is herself, then why would she keep the cycle going.

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<v Speaker 3>That's what still doesn't make sense to me. But then

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<v Speaker 3>I remember something that came up when I spoke to

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<v Speaker 3>the psychologist Maria Konnikova. What motivates the con Because in

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<v Speaker 3>our case, Leslie didn't get away with a whole lot

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<v Speaker 3>of money.

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<v Speaker 7>And that is not at all uncommon. I think it's

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<v Speaker 7>a huge misperception among the public that con artists are

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<v Speaker 7>motivated by money. I really think that's not it at all,

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<v Speaker 7>because for the most part, con artists don't make a

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<v Speaker 7>lot of money and are incredibly intelligent and could have

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<v Speaker 7>made much more money in more legitimate professions, and so

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<v Speaker 7>I don't actually think it's about financial gain at all.

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<v Speaker 7>I think that why they do it is power. They're

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<v Speaker 7>motivated in the sense of power over other people, control

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<v Speaker 7>over other people's lives, the idea that they're shaping other

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<v Speaker 7>people's reality in a way that they want to shape it.

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<v Speaker 7>This is something that can be incredibly intoxicating. And I

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<v Speaker 7>think that that feeling of power is actually one of

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<v Speaker 7>the reasons that con artists are more often than not,

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<v Speaker 7>and by more often than not, I mean, like you,

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<v Speaker 7>over ninety percent of cases, true con artists are repeat defenders,

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<v Speaker 7>and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak,

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<v Speaker 7>they don't take it. They can't take it, even though

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<v Speaker 7>they say they will, and the will and they want to,

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<v Speaker 7>because they're always driven back to that and they are

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<v Speaker 7>unable to let go of that rush of power over

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<v Speaker 7>other people. I mean, it is intoxicating if you think

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<v Speaker 7>about it. You're playing god, You're controlling other people's lives,

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<v Speaker 7>You're crafting their realities. You're creating entire worlds, and people believe.

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<v Speaker 3>You creating entire worlds like the world of Eric t Weiss.

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<v Speaker 3>Leslie could control all of that. Maybe that's what this

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<v Speaker 3>was about, not money, but a feeling of control, a

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<v Speaker 3>feeling of power. Oh and remember what Leslie said about

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<v Speaker 3>putting me in touch with Eric.

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<v Speaker 5>Like I said, I haven't talked to him in a

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<v Speaker 5>couple of years, but I can give you the last

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<v Speaker 5>known number for him.

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<v Speaker 7>I'd be happy to no problem.

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<v Speaker 3>I followed up over text and asked Leslie for Eric's number.

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<v Speaker 3>She never gave me one, So I guess that means

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<v Speaker 3>that her old mate, Eric t weiss Esquire will be

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<v Speaker 3>lost to her story fictional history. That leaves one more

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<v Speaker 3>question that's been on my mind all along. It might

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<v Speaker 3>be the most troubling question of my investigation. Where to

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<v Speaker 3>Leslie's parents fit in.

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<v Speaker 7>We'll be right back.

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<v Speaker 3>Doctor Kannakova doesn't know Leslie or her parents, but she

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<v Speaker 3>said something that gave me a new perspective on what

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<v Speaker 3>it might be like to be in their position.

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<v Speaker 7>Oftentimes, you know, people like the parents aren't in on

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<v Speaker 7>the con as such, but they've been deceived. You have

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<v Speaker 7>to remember, they've been living with a con artist for

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<v Speaker 7>their for the entire life of that con artist, and

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<v Speaker 7>it's their daughter, So you have an emotional involvement. And

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<v Speaker 7>if you who are you know? Who didn't know Leslie

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<v Speaker 7>when she was younger and had no kind of family

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<v Speaker 7>or blood ties initially, If you were able to be

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<v Speaker 7>pulled into her web. Just imagine how difficult it is

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<v Speaker 7>if you're related to her, if you have kind of

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<v Speaker 7>the closest relationship of all, I think it could be

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<v Speaker 7>incredibly difficult. And I think that those are families are

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<v Speaker 7>often the biggest victims of con artists, and we'll defend

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<v Speaker 7>their children, will defend their loved ones to the end.

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<v Speaker 3>I did try to speak with Leslie's parents, Betty and Andrew.

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<v Speaker 1>At the towne.

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<v Speaker 8>Please leave a message for.

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<v Speaker 4>This is Betty.

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<v Speaker 8>We're not available right at the moment.

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<v Speaker 7>Please leave a message.

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<v Speaker 8>Record your message at the towne.

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<v Speaker 4>Hi, Betty, it's Ollie Ward's here. You might remember me,

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<v Speaker 4>Gregg's little brother. I'm sure Leslie has told you that

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<v Speaker 4>I am reporting a story just regarding.

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<v Speaker 3>I also emailed them and sent them a letter. No response.

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<v Speaker 3>Leslie might have told them not to talk to me.

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<v Speaker 3>After some friendly texts back and forth with Leslie, things

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<v Speaker 3>had turned sour. Started to find out how many people

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<v Speaker 3>we had spoken to for this podcast, and in particular

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<v Speaker 3>in that last town we went to. Leslie heard that

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<v Speaker 3>we had mentioned some of the allegations about her to

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<v Speaker 3>some people at her old work, and she was not happy.

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<v Speaker 3>About it.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, A text message has just come in from Leslie

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<v Speaker 4>after not hearing from her for a little while. Um,

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<v Speaker 4>she says, lose my number. A journalist doesn't slander a

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<v Speaker 4>person's character at their old workplace. This is not a

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<v Speaker 4>story for your podcast. This is revenge trip. So fucked Ollie.

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<v Speaker 4>After all these years, you reach out to me or

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<v Speaker 4>my parents, ever, and I will file a restraining order

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<v Speaker 4>against you, Simon and whoever else. I need to.

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<v Speaker 2>Restraining orders on us and everything. Now.

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<v Speaker 3>Of course, you know heavy, oh Man, cheaper is What

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<v Speaker 3>Leslie didn't know was that revenge couldn't have been further

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<v Speaker 3>from our minds. When I set out on this trip,

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<v Speaker 3>I wanted to understand what happened and to get Leslie's

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<v Speaker 3>side of the story. It was important to get her

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<v Speaker 3>response to people all over the world saying she had

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<v Speaker 3>conned them. But at the end of our trip, I've

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<v Speaker 3>realized Leslie isn't some sort of two dimensional movie villain.

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<v Speaker 3>She's a complex person with motives. Maybe she doesn't even

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<v Speaker 3>fully understand, and maybe the person who has suffered the

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<v Speaker 3>most from what Leslie has done is Leslie herself. So

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<v Speaker 3>I don't feel vengeful. I just feel sad, sad for Leslie,

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<v Speaker 3>sad for everyone who felt deceived and devastated by her,

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<v Speaker 3>and sad for my brother Greg. I didn't know if

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<v Speaker 3>Greg would react like I did, so I told him

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<v Speaker 3>that Leslie might have been homeless.

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<v Speaker 8>It's hard to feel sorry for someone when they clearly

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<v Speaker 8>have choices. And the thing with Leslie is she's had

0:14:12.796 --> 0:14:16.596
<v Speaker 8>lots and lots and lots of choices. So her being

0:14:16.716 --> 0:14:22.796
<v Speaker 8>homeless supposedly that's bad, but that will be a consequence

0:14:23.276 --> 0:14:28.076
<v Speaker 8>of her actions, which will have affected lots of other

0:14:28.116 --> 0:14:32.476
<v Speaker 8>people around her, who let's call them the victims, So

0:14:32.596 --> 0:14:37.076
<v Speaker 8>that drops my sympathy down quite a few notches.

0:14:38.996 --> 0:14:42.076
<v Speaker 3>Around that time when Leslie might have been homeless, Greg

0:14:42.156 --> 0:14:43.596
<v Speaker 3>had got himself back on his feet.

0:14:44.716 --> 0:14:49.156
<v Speaker 8>So where I did get to was a lucky place.

0:14:50.196 --> 0:14:56.156
<v Speaker 8>I have a beautiful, highly supportive, intelligent wife, and we

0:14:56.236 --> 0:15:01.636
<v Speaker 8>have a pretty magical young daughter, and then we live

0:15:01.676 --> 0:15:05.476
<v Speaker 8>in a beautiful suburb. I've got a good job that

0:15:05.956 --> 0:15:11.836
<v Speaker 8>provides for us, and all of the good things are

0:15:11.836 --> 0:15:13.956
<v Speaker 8>ahead of us in life.

0:15:14.076 --> 0:15:16.916
<v Speaker 3>As for my mum and dad, they were mostly able

0:15:16.956 --> 0:15:19.836
<v Speaker 3>to move on too, and in case that happened after

0:15:19.956 --> 0:15:22.996
<v Speaker 3>Leslie left New Zealand. Mum and dad sued the lawyer

0:15:23.076 --> 0:15:26.116
<v Speaker 3>who worked on the Dragonfly deal. The matter was settled

0:15:26.116 --> 0:15:28.796
<v Speaker 3>before it went to court. I can't say much about

0:15:28.796 --> 0:15:31.516
<v Speaker 3>it for legal reasons, but it worked out that Mum

0:15:31.516 --> 0:15:33.676
<v Speaker 3>and Dad were able to get enough money to buy

0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:36.436
<v Speaker 3>a home of their own again. Dad had to go

0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:39.756
<v Speaker 3>back to work. But after a few years of tough times,

0:15:40.276 --> 0:15:42.556
<v Speaker 3>my parents got back to being happy where they are.

0:15:43.636 --> 0:15:46.556
<v Speaker 3>They even reflect on some good that came out of everything.

0:15:48.236 --> 0:15:53.316
<v Speaker 9>And now we honestly have moved on and don't really

0:15:53.356 --> 0:15:57.556
<v Speaker 9>think about that time much at all. It was a

0:15:57.716 --> 0:16:04.276
<v Speaker 9>very proops almost you could say, another defining moment for

0:16:04.356 --> 0:16:08.036
<v Speaker 9>our family. I think in many ways it brought us

0:16:08.036 --> 0:16:12.796
<v Speaker 9>all together, not that we were apart, but it spu

0:16:13.396 --> 0:16:15.116
<v Speaker 9>sputted us in pretty well.

0:16:15.436 --> 0:16:22.476
<v Speaker 1>Actually, for me, it's a gratitude. It's nothing to do

0:16:22.636 --> 0:16:29.516
<v Speaker 1>with her. It's how loved and cared for that we are,

0:16:29.716 --> 0:16:36.956
<v Speaker 1>that so many people cared for us, for the immediate family.

0:16:38.076 --> 0:16:47.276
<v Speaker 1>They were so amazingly brilliant, and you three for sticking

0:16:47.316 --> 0:16:52.396
<v Speaker 1>with it and holding us up. And at least we've

0:16:52.436 --> 0:16:56.076
<v Speaker 1>got something to talk about at dinner parties, so they're

0:16:56.076 --> 0:16:59.356
<v Speaker 1>not entirely free of us, not.

0:16:59.356 --> 0:17:01.956
<v Speaker 9>That we talk about it now at dinner parties.

0:17:02.596 --> 0:17:04.076
<v Speaker 1>We don't have dinner parties.

0:17:04.116 --> 0:17:04.836
<v Speaker 6>We're too old.

0:17:06.436 --> 0:17:09.596
<v Speaker 3>And like he always does, my brother Simon and sums

0:17:09.596 --> 0:17:10.476
<v Speaker 3>it up for us.

0:17:11.236 --> 0:17:13.596
<v Speaker 2>I'm actually really proud of us through it as well.

0:17:13.676 --> 0:17:16.436
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, like a big thing of this was

0:17:16.516 --> 0:17:18.796
<v Speaker 2>just how you know, and I always I always repeat it,

0:17:18.796 --> 0:17:20.876
<v Speaker 2>but kind of I don't. The reason that I don't

0:17:20.876 --> 0:17:23.556
<v Speaker 2>feel angry with her or kind of forgiven her is

0:17:23.636 --> 0:17:27.516
<v Speaker 2>just because of how close it made us, you know,

0:17:27.556 --> 0:17:30.756
<v Speaker 2>we changed as a family through this, and so yeah,

0:17:30.836 --> 0:17:33.516
<v Speaker 2>so I just yeah, I'm just I love look of

0:17:33.516 --> 0:17:34.956
<v Speaker 2>you guys came out of it.

0:17:35.036 --> 0:17:35.236
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:17:35.396 --> 0:17:35.596
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:17:38.076 --> 0:17:40.236
<v Speaker 3>For almost a year now, I haven't been able to

0:17:40.236 --> 0:17:42.756
<v Speaker 3>talk to my family without it being about this podcast.

0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:45.116
<v Speaker 3>I'm looking forward to going back to talking about the

0:17:45.236 --> 0:17:47.476
<v Speaker 3>usual stuff like how to turn the video on.

0:17:49.796 --> 0:17:52.636
<v Speaker 6>Here we go. Ollie wants to connect with you on Skype,

0:17:52.836 --> 0:17:58.676
<v Speaker 6>except well, well we've got contact. Yeah, so hear me,

0:17:59.236 --> 0:18:01.316
<v Speaker 6>can't see me. I can see you.

0:18:01.156 --> 0:18:03.436
<v Speaker 3>And hear you, and I need to call Greg Moore.

0:18:03.956 --> 0:18:07.196
<v Speaker 3>I don't catch up with my brother nearly enough. This

0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:09.556
<v Speaker 3>whole thing has been a good reason and for us

0:18:09.596 --> 0:18:13.156
<v Speaker 3>to talk for me to understand something so profound in

0:18:13.196 --> 0:18:17.796
<v Speaker 3>his life. But it's been hard sometimes to draw a

0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:21.036
<v Speaker 3>line between my brother and the story I'm trying to tell.

0:18:22.396 --> 0:18:26.316
<v Speaker 3>One time Greg called me and he started to cry.

0:18:26.436 --> 0:18:28.756
<v Speaker 3>He was telling me about how he still feels pain

0:18:28.836 --> 0:18:32.476
<v Speaker 3>from what happened. Part of my brain was thinking, I

0:18:32.556 --> 0:18:35.196
<v Speaker 3>need to record this, call him back with the recorder on.

0:18:36.236 --> 0:18:38.876
<v Speaker 3>But the rest of me was thinking, my brother is

0:18:38.956 --> 0:18:41.716
<v Speaker 3>upset right now, and I need to be there for him.

0:18:42.876 --> 0:18:44.996
<v Speaker 3>You didn't hear that call because I stayed on the

0:18:45.036 --> 0:18:48.916
<v Speaker 3>line with him. To Greg, I'm not a journalist reporting

0:18:48.916 --> 0:18:56.476
<v Speaker 3>his story. I'm his brother. The story started with him,

0:18:56.516 --> 0:19:00.436
<v Speaker 3>and it needs to end with him. I asked Greg

0:19:00.476 --> 0:19:03.116
<v Speaker 3>to think about what he's taken away from this whole experience.

0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:07.796
<v Speaker 8>The important things are the things that are pretty close

0:19:07.836 --> 0:19:13.276
<v Speaker 8>to you, like family and friends and what can fulfill

0:19:13.316 --> 0:19:17.956
<v Speaker 8>you and make you happy. A lot of those things

0:19:17.996 --> 0:19:22.236
<v Speaker 8>are actually right in front of most people right now.

0:19:23.756 --> 0:19:27.796
<v Speaker 8>Things like being able to wake up on our weekend

0:19:29.116 --> 0:19:33.316
<v Speaker 8>and walk your daughter down to the local school so

0:19:33.356 --> 0:19:36.796
<v Speaker 8>she can play on the playground. You don't need to

0:19:37.796 --> 0:19:41.516
<v Speaker 8>have a Ferrari to drive her there. It didn't need

0:19:41.556 --> 0:19:49.756
<v Speaker 8>to be a life in the fast lane. The good

0:19:49.796 --> 0:19:57.636
<v Speaker 8>life is hopefully what most people can get, and that

0:19:57.756 --> 0:20:05.796
<v Speaker 8>is living on a regular street, doing regular things and

0:20:07.556 --> 0:20:12.236
<v Speaker 8>working hard for them. I think that's what it comes

0:20:12.236 --> 0:20:19.316
<v Speaker 8>down to, and there's a beauty simplicity that's hard to

0:20:19.356 --> 0:20:29.476
<v Speaker 8>replace with money and possessions they ultimately don't really satisfy.

0:20:29.636 --> 0:20:38.436
<v Speaker 8>I don't think what really matters was always here and

0:20:38.676 --> 0:20:40.836
<v Speaker 8>it was actually right in front of me.

0:20:56.396 --> 0:20:59.516
<v Speaker 3>I really hope you've enjoyed coming along for this ride.

0:21:00.516 --> 0:21:03.356
<v Speaker 3>You can find a bunch of extras, including a feature

0:21:03.436 --> 0:21:06.716
<v Speaker 3>article and the video of my confrontation with Leslie, at

0:21:06.716 --> 0:21:10.636
<v Speaker 3>the ABC's Unraveled True Crime website. You can hit me

0:21:10.716 --> 0:21:14.196
<v Speaker 3>up on Instagram at Ollie Ward's and if you share

0:21:14.196 --> 0:21:19.036
<v Speaker 3>this story, please use the hashtag Unravel true Crime roll.

0:21:19.036 --> 0:21:24.036
<v Speaker 3>The credits music Snowball is hosted and produced by me

0:21:24.356 --> 0:21:28.036
<v Speaker 3>Ollie Wards. Big love to my brother Greg and my

0:21:28.316 --> 0:21:31.636
<v Speaker 3>entire family for letting me tell this story, and thank

0:21:31.676 --> 0:21:34.076
<v Speaker 3>you so much to the awesome team I got to

0:21:34.116 --> 0:21:40.276
<v Speaker 3>work with, including Unravel's supervising producer Tim Roxborough, audio producer

0:21:40.396 --> 0:21:45.596
<v Speaker 3>Emma Lancaster, fact checking and additional audio production from Shane Anderson,

0:21:46.436 --> 0:21:51.716
<v Speaker 3>sound designers John Jacobs and Tim Jenkins, the biggest of

0:21:51.836 --> 0:21:56.596
<v Speaker 3>US to flight facilities for our themes on additional music

0:21:56.716 --> 0:22:01.236
<v Speaker 3>Bryce Halliday. Unravel is a product of ABC Audio Studios,

0:22:01.516 --> 0:22:06.476
<v Speaker 3>led by Kelly Reardon and Unravel's executive producer is Ian Walker.

0:23:01.476 --> 0:23:37.076
<v Speaker 5>Why wait wait wait wait wait wait, You'll never really

0:23:37.196 --> 0:23:38.316
<v Speaker 5>know what was real or not