1
00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,836
Speaker 1: Pushkin.

2
00:00:20,236 --> 00:00:22,916
Speaker 2: If you're landing here for the first time, best to

3
00:00:22,996 --> 00:00:25,636
Speaker 2: go back and start this story at episode one.

4
00:00:27,076 --> 00:00:30,036
Speaker 3: It's the morning after I found my brother's ex wife,

5
00:00:30,196 --> 00:00:35,396
Speaker 3: Leslie in a Californian car park. How'd you sleep, Simon?

6
00:00:35,436 --> 00:00:37,076
Speaker 3: And I wake up in a cheap motel.

7
00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:40,756
Speaker 4: No crazy dreams last night.

8
00:00:41,116 --> 00:00:43,956
Speaker 3: The bed sheets are thin and crumple like crepe paper.

9
00:00:44,956 --> 00:00:46,236
Speaker 3: We're still buzzing out.

10
00:00:46,556 --> 00:00:50,436
Speaker 4: It's more of a crazy dream all day, really, eh.

11
00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:53,076
Speaker 3: We lie there debriefing my chat with Leslie?

12
00:00:53,916 --> 00:00:54,316
Speaker 1: How are you.

13
00:00:54,316 --> 00:00:55,636
Speaker 2: Feeling about what you said now?

14
00:00:55,756 --> 00:00:59,956
Speaker 4: As in like I was kind of convinced, and well,

15
00:00:59,996 --> 00:01:04,796
Speaker 4: I wasn't convinced, but I definitely yeah, yeah, I'm not conned.

16
00:01:04,796 --> 00:01:09,116
Speaker 4: I'm not convinced, but I do. I did feel sorry

17
00:01:09,276 --> 00:01:16,116
Speaker 4: for Leslie, and I felt that there was genuine sadness

18
00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:18,956
Speaker 4: and maybe even a touch of remorse from her side

19
00:01:18,956 --> 00:01:22,356
Speaker 4: of things. But having slept on it, even just for

20
00:01:22,396 --> 00:01:29,476
Speaker 4: a few hours, I think that her sadness and her

21
00:01:29,516 --> 00:01:34,276
Speaker 4: remorse is like I think she recognized that her life

22
00:01:34,596 --> 00:01:38,516
Speaker 4: is not what she wanted it to be, or even

23
00:01:38,556 --> 00:01:44,916
Speaker 4: perhaps what it could be, and she kind of like

24
00:01:44,996 --> 00:01:49,836
Speaker 4: looked up at me like almost like you know, she

25
00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:53,516
Speaker 4: was going, please, don't make me face all of this stuff.

26
00:01:55,076 --> 00:02:00,836
Speaker 4: And I think what I was feeling is I felt

27
00:02:00,876 --> 00:02:02,836
Speaker 4: bad for doing that.

28
00:02:05,436 --> 00:02:08,756
Speaker 3: Am I just being charmed like everyone else in this story?

29
00:02:09,596 --> 00:02:12,516
Speaker 3: From the brief chat I had with Leslie, it's hard

30
00:02:12,516 --> 00:02:15,116
Speaker 3: to tell I'd left her with the plan to meet

31
00:02:15,196 --> 00:02:17,796
Speaker 3: up and go through everything in detail. If we can

32
00:02:17,836 --> 00:02:20,516
Speaker 3: sit down and talk, I won't have to rush through

33
00:02:20,516 --> 00:02:23,476
Speaker 3: my questions. Maybe I can get her to talk about

34
00:02:23,516 --> 00:02:27,956
Speaker 3: what she really meant when she said things weren't totally kosher,

35
00:02:28,956 --> 00:02:32,036
Speaker 3: and instead of going slowly, I can just straight up

36
00:02:32,116 --> 00:02:35,196
Speaker 3: ask her if she did stuff like inventor fake lawyer

37
00:02:35,436 --> 00:02:38,916
Speaker 3: Eric t Weiss to fool people. If she can really

38
00:02:38,956 --> 00:02:46,556
Speaker 3: answer it all of this stuff, she'll turn up. So

39
00:02:46,676 --> 00:02:49,316
Speaker 3: I sent Leslie a text suggesting that we meet up

40
00:02:49,316 --> 00:02:52,196
Speaker 3: at the Starbucks near the supermarket she works at, and

41
00:02:52,236 --> 00:02:59,036
Speaker 3: she's just sent me a text back. So here it is, Hi, Ollie,

42
00:02:59,036 --> 00:03:01,996
Speaker 3: and good morning. It was really good to see you too.

43
00:03:02,156 --> 00:03:04,476
Speaker 3: I hope you understand. All the things you asked about

44
00:03:04,596 --> 00:03:07,196
Speaker 3: is all ten plus years ago, and I have moved

45
00:03:07,236 --> 00:03:10,516
Speaker 3: on from all of it, and so has my parents. Okay,

46
00:03:11,036 --> 00:03:15,316
Speaker 3: Cameron's story is actually from about six years ago. But anyway,

47
00:03:16,116 --> 00:03:19,356
Speaker 3: I appreciate you want both sides, but in all fairness,

48
00:03:19,676 --> 00:03:22,156
Speaker 3: you should have reached out way before. Twelve years later.

49
00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:26,156
Speaker 3: I am past all the pain, lies, deceit, and loneliness

50
00:03:26,196 --> 00:03:28,756
Speaker 3: my decisions have created for me, and I've laid it

51
00:03:28,796 --> 00:03:31,556
Speaker 3: all to rest. I really have thought long and hard

52
00:03:31,636 --> 00:03:33,876
Speaker 3: through the night and decided that I do not wish

53
00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:36,556
Speaker 3: to bring it all back. I wish you all the best, Ollie,

54
00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:43,036
Speaker 3: and good luck with all your ventures. Hmmm, so I

55
00:03:43,076 --> 00:03:50,916
Speaker 3: guess that's it. We won't be seeing Leslie again. For

56
00:03:50,996 --> 00:03:53,876
Speaker 3: the final episode of the season of Unravel, I'm Ollie

57
00:03:53,916 --> 00:04:10,716
Speaker 3: Ward's and this is Snowball. I wasn't really in the

58
00:04:10,716 --> 00:04:13,796
Speaker 3: mood for asking any more questions, but we had already

59
00:04:13,836 --> 00:04:16,516
Speaker 3: planned one more stop on our road trip, a beautiful

60
00:04:16,556 --> 00:04:19,356
Speaker 3: beachside town just down the road where Leslie had worked.

61
00:04:21,396 --> 00:04:23,676
Speaker 3: When we got there, Simon had a beer in the

62
00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:25,956
Speaker 3: bar and told some people why we were in town.

63
00:04:26,956 --> 00:04:29,756
Speaker 3: Word went round, and then a lady approached me. She

64
00:04:29,796 --> 00:04:31,036
Speaker 3: said she had known Leslie.

65
00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:34,316
Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, we were very close. Actually you can be

66
00:04:34,396 --> 00:04:34,756
Speaker 5: to her.

67
00:04:35,476 --> 00:04:39,716
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. She had all the familiar stories about Leslie,

68
00:04:39,716 --> 00:04:44,076
Speaker 3: having tall tales of successful international restaurants and a trust fund.

69
00:04:44,836 --> 00:04:47,956
Speaker 3: But to be honest, I was over it. More of

70
00:04:47,996 --> 00:04:51,316
Speaker 3: the same wasn't going to help me understand everything. Then,

71
00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:54,116
Speaker 3: just as we were wrapping up, she said something that

72
00:04:54,236 --> 00:04:59,836
Speaker 3: really hit me. I might just grab it.

73
00:05:00,156 --> 00:05:01,476
Speaker 4: So can you just say that again?

74
00:05:01,796 --> 00:05:03,596
Speaker 5: She was homeless for a time for most of the

75
00:05:03,636 --> 00:05:06,556
Speaker 5: time she was working here this last time because she

76
00:05:06,596 --> 00:05:10,556
Speaker 5: slept at the campgrounds. And she's because I helped her

77
00:05:10,556 --> 00:05:13,676
Speaker 5: remove a camper to the campground and she slept in

78
00:05:13,716 --> 00:05:15,436
Speaker 5: the back of her car. And then she slept over

79
00:05:15,556 --> 00:05:17,316
Speaker 5: at a hotel because I remember going over there and

80
00:05:17,356 --> 00:05:21,236
Speaker 5: having pizza with her, and so I know she didn't

81
00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:22,156
Speaker 5: have a place to live here.

82
00:05:22,756 --> 00:05:23,556
Speaker 3: It's really sad.

83
00:05:23,716 --> 00:05:28,236
Speaker 4: Yeah, And why was she sort of homeless if she

84
00:05:28,316 --> 00:05:29,956
Speaker 4: had a job here and was working.

85
00:05:30,196 --> 00:05:30,596
Speaker 6: I don't know.

86
00:05:30,676 --> 00:05:32,876
Speaker 5: She was always looking for a place.

87
00:05:33,196 --> 00:05:35,236
Speaker 3: As I walked back to the hotel room, I turned

88
00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:41,716
Speaker 3: my recorder on. That doesn't make me feel good, like

89
00:05:42,156 --> 00:05:45,756
Speaker 3: nobody should be homeless. I feel sad that Leslie's going

90
00:05:45,796 --> 00:05:52,076
Speaker 3: through her life, going from opportunities and circumstances like living

91
00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:57,916
Speaker 3: in Medicana in New Zealand, right down to sleeping in

92
00:05:57,956 --> 00:06:01,956
Speaker 3: her car, maybe in a beautiful place, but nobody deserves

93
00:06:01,996 --> 00:06:06,676
Speaker 3: to be homeless. And I just really hope that, I

94
00:06:06,716 --> 00:06:10,436
Speaker 3: don't know, something can jolt out of this, because she's

95
00:06:10,436 --> 00:06:15,156
Speaker 3: not winning out of any of us. When Simon came back,

96
00:06:15,236 --> 00:06:17,516
Speaker 3: I told him what I had found out. The saddest

97
00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:21,316
Speaker 3: thing was she said that when Leslie was here, she

98
00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:21,956
Speaker 3: was homeless.

99
00:06:23,036 --> 00:06:29,436
Speaker 2: Shit that sucks. Just ed like I just, you know,

100
00:06:29,796 --> 00:06:31,956
Speaker 2: we were saying kind of like this kind of existence

101
00:06:32,076 --> 00:06:36,916
Speaker 2: must be traumatic and fucking sad and just torrible and

102
00:06:37,116 --> 00:06:39,316
Speaker 2: just kind of like, yep, I'm not surprised when you

103
00:06:39,356 --> 00:06:42,196
Speaker 2: say that, Like my heart sinks a little bit. I'm like, fuck,

104
00:06:42,556 --> 00:06:44,476
Speaker 2: you don't really wish that kind of shit on anyone,

105
00:06:44,516 --> 00:06:47,476
Speaker 2: even if they've kind of done you wrong and stuff like,

106
00:06:47,996 --> 00:06:51,116
Speaker 2: I don't know, like that's sad, that's sad, you know

107
00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:51,436
Speaker 2: what I mean.

108
00:06:55,316 --> 00:06:56,956
Speaker 3: I guess I thought this whole thing was going to

109
00:06:56,996 --> 00:07:02,396
Speaker 3: wrap up neatly like a movie. Being in America, running

110
00:07:02,396 --> 00:07:05,236
Speaker 3: around doing this investigation, it often feels like I'm in

111
00:07:05,236 --> 00:07:09,436
Speaker 3: a movie, the car, the accents, So I was kind

112
00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:12,076
Speaker 3: of expecting all my questions answered and tied up in

113
00:07:12,076 --> 00:07:18,396
Speaker 3: a pretty bow. Instead, things feel complicated. I didn't expect

114
00:07:18,476 --> 00:07:21,916
Speaker 3: to end up feeling sorry for Leslie, but I kind

115
00:07:21,916 --> 00:07:27,076
Speaker 3: of do. She has brought a lot of this on herself.

116
00:07:27,636 --> 00:07:30,756
Speaker 3: It's just her situation. I kind of feel sorry for

117
00:07:32,716 --> 00:07:35,756
Speaker 3: some of the people that she hurt took years to recover,

118
00:07:36,756 --> 00:07:40,516
Speaker 3: but they're all mostly back on their feet. It's Leslie

119
00:07:40,516 --> 00:07:43,116
Speaker 3: that seems to be in this cycle of starting over

120
00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:50,236
Speaker 3: again with nothing. If it turns out Leslie's biggest victim

121
00:07:50,476 --> 00:07:54,156
Speaker 3: is herself, then why would she keep the cycle going.

122
00:07:55,076 --> 00:07:57,996
Speaker 3: That's what still doesn't make sense to me. But then

123
00:07:58,236 --> 00:08:00,276
Speaker 3: I remember something that came up when I spoke to

124
00:08:00,276 --> 00:08:05,716
Speaker 3: the psychologist Maria Konnikova. What motivates the con Because in

125
00:08:05,756 --> 00:08:08,516
Speaker 3: our case, Leslie didn't get away with a whole lot

126
00:08:08,556 --> 00:08:09,356
Speaker 3: of money.

127
00:08:10,076 --> 00:08:13,516
Speaker 7: And that is not at all uncommon. I think it's

128
00:08:13,516 --> 00:08:16,836
Speaker 7: a huge misperception among the public that con artists are

129
00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:20,156
Speaker 7: motivated by money. I really think that's not it at all,

130
00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:23,036
Speaker 7: because for the most part, con artists don't make a

131
00:08:23,036 --> 00:08:25,756
Speaker 7: lot of money and are incredibly intelligent and could have

132
00:08:25,796 --> 00:08:29,636
Speaker 7: made much more money in more legitimate professions, and so

133
00:08:29,796 --> 00:08:32,236
Speaker 7: I don't actually think it's about financial gain at all.

134
00:08:32,756 --> 00:08:35,996
Speaker 7: I think that why they do it is power. They're

135
00:08:36,076 --> 00:08:40,756
Speaker 7: motivated in the sense of power over other people, control

136
00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:44,516
Speaker 7: over other people's lives, the idea that they're shaping other

137
00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:48,276
Speaker 7: people's reality in a way that they want to shape it.

138
00:08:48,836 --> 00:08:51,836
Speaker 7: This is something that can be incredibly intoxicating. And I

139
00:08:51,836 --> 00:08:55,156
Speaker 7: think that that feeling of power is actually one of

140
00:08:55,196 --> 00:08:59,036
Speaker 7: the reasons that con artists are more often than not,

141
00:08:59,276 --> 00:09:00,916
Speaker 7: and by more often than not, I mean, like you,

142
00:09:00,956 --> 00:09:04,716
Speaker 7: over ninety percent of cases, true con artists are repeat defenders,

143
00:09:04,756 --> 00:09:07,316
Speaker 7: and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak,

144
00:09:07,356 --> 00:09:09,276
Speaker 7: they don't take it. They can't take it, even though

145
00:09:09,276 --> 00:09:11,756
Speaker 7: they say they will, and the will and they want to,

146
00:09:12,236 --> 00:09:16,836
Speaker 7: because they're always driven back to that and they are

147
00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:19,436
Speaker 7: unable to let go of that rush of power over

148
00:09:19,476 --> 00:09:21,516
Speaker 7: other people. I mean, it is intoxicating if you think

149
00:09:21,556 --> 00:09:25,036
Speaker 7: about it. You're playing god, You're controlling other people's lives,

150
00:09:25,036 --> 00:09:29,516
Speaker 7: You're crafting their realities. You're creating entire worlds, and people believe.

151
00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:37,516
Speaker 3: You creating entire worlds like the world of Eric t Weiss.

152
00:09:38,236 --> 00:09:42,036
Speaker 3: Leslie could control all of that. Maybe that's what this

153
00:09:42,236 --> 00:09:46,436
Speaker 3: was about, not money, but a feeling of control, a

154
00:09:46,476 --> 00:09:49,996
Speaker 3: feeling of power. Oh and remember what Leslie said about

155
00:09:50,036 --> 00:09:51,116
Speaker 3: putting me in touch with Eric.

156
00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:52,556
Speaker 5: Like I said, I haven't talked to him in a

157
00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:53,916
Speaker 5: couple of years, but I can give you the last

158
00:09:53,916 --> 00:09:54,596
Speaker 5: known number for him.

159
00:09:54,636 --> 00:09:58,196
Speaker 7: I'd be happy to no problem.

160
00:09:58,396 --> 00:10:01,316
Speaker 3: I followed up over text and asked Leslie for Eric's number.

161
00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:04,396
Speaker 3: She never gave me one, So I guess that means

162
00:10:04,396 --> 00:10:08,476
Speaker 3: that her old mate, Eric t weiss Esquire will be

163
00:10:08,516 --> 00:10:15,156
Speaker 3: lost to her story fictional history. That leaves one more

164
00:10:15,236 --> 00:10:19,556
Speaker 3: question that's been on my mind all along. It might

165
00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:24,036
Speaker 3: be the most troubling question of my investigation. Where to

166
00:10:24,116 --> 00:10:25,396
Speaker 3: Leslie's parents fit in.

167
00:10:27,156 --> 00:10:28,076
Speaker 7: We'll be right back.

168
00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:34,436
Speaker 3: Doctor Kannakova doesn't know Leslie or her parents, but she

169
00:10:34,516 --> 00:10:37,116
Speaker 3: said something that gave me a new perspective on what

170
00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:38,836
Speaker 3: it might be like to be in their position.

171
00:10:40,076 --> 00:10:44,076
Speaker 7: Oftentimes, you know, people like the parents aren't in on

172
00:10:44,076 --> 00:10:46,836
Speaker 7: the con as such, but they've been deceived. You have

173
00:10:46,876 --> 00:10:49,476
Speaker 7: to remember, they've been living with a con artist for

174
00:10:49,556 --> 00:10:53,236
Speaker 7: their for the entire life of that con artist, and

175
00:10:53,316 --> 00:10:56,476
Speaker 7: it's their daughter, So you have an emotional involvement. And

176
00:10:56,516 --> 00:11:01,156
Speaker 7: if you who are you know? Who didn't know Leslie

177
00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:04,876
Speaker 7: when she was younger and had no kind of family

178
00:11:04,956 --> 00:11:07,876
Speaker 7: or blood ties initially, If you were able to be

179
00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:10,636
Speaker 7: pulled into her web. Just imagine how difficult it is

180
00:11:11,076 --> 00:11:13,236
Speaker 7: if you're related to her, if you have kind of

181
00:11:13,236 --> 00:11:16,716
Speaker 7: the closest relationship of all, I think it could be

182
00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:20,436
Speaker 7: incredibly difficult. And I think that those are families are

183
00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:23,036
Speaker 7: often the biggest victims of con artists, and we'll defend

184
00:11:23,156 --> 00:11:25,476
Speaker 7: their children, will defend their loved ones to the end.

185
00:11:26,836 --> 00:11:29,996
Speaker 3: I did try to speak with Leslie's parents, Betty and Andrew.

186
00:11:31,516 --> 00:11:32,076
Speaker 1: At the towne.

187
00:11:32,316 --> 00:11:33,556
Speaker 8: Please leave a message for.

188
00:11:35,476 --> 00:11:36,116
Speaker 4: This is Betty.

189
00:11:36,316 --> 00:11:38,036
Speaker 8: We're not available right at the moment.

190
00:11:38,276 --> 00:11:39,516
Speaker 7: Please leave a message.

191
00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:41,676
Speaker 8: Record your message at the towne.

192
00:11:43,076 --> 00:11:45,996
Speaker 4: Hi, Betty, it's Ollie Ward's here. You might remember me,

193
00:11:46,796 --> 00:11:50,476
Speaker 4: Gregg's little brother. I'm sure Leslie has told you that

194
00:11:50,756 --> 00:11:57,756
Speaker 4: I am reporting a story just regarding.

195
00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:59,676
Speaker 3: I also emailed them and sent them a letter. No response.

196
00:12:02,076 --> 00:12:03,876
Speaker 3: Leslie might have told them not to talk to me.

197
00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:07,556
Speaker 3: After some friendly texts back and forth with Leslie, things

198
00:12:07,556 --> 00:12:10,716
Speaker 3: had turned sour. Started to find out how many people

199
00:12:10,716 --> 00:12:14,196
Speaker 3: we had spoken to for this podcast, and in particular

200
00:12:14,316 --> 00:12:17,156
Speaker 3: in that last town we went to. Leslie heard that

201
00:12:17,196 --> 00:12:19,716
Speaker 3: we had mentioned some of the allegations about her to

202
00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:23,196
Speaker 3: some people at her old work, and she was not happy.

203
00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:23,636
Speaker 3: About it.

204
00:12:25,156 --> 00:12:28,236
Speaker 4: Okay, A text message has just come in from Leslie

205
00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:31,036
Speaker 4: after not hearing from her for a little while. Um,

206
00:12:31,956 --> 00:12:34,996
Speaker 4: she says, lose my number. A journalist doesn't slander a

207
00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:37,916
Speaker 4: person's character at their old workplace. This is not a

208
00:12:37,916 --> 00:12:41,956
Speaker 4: story for your podcast. This is revenge trip. So fucked Ollie.

209
00:12:42,036 --> 00:12:44,556
Speaker 4: After all these years, you reach out to me or

210
00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:47,876
Speaker 4: my parents, ever, and I will file a restraining order

211
00:12:47,956 --> 00:12:50,716
Speaker 4: against you, Simon and whoever else. I need to.

212
00:12:51,076 --> 00:12:52,876
Speaker 2: Restraining orders on us and everything. Now.

213
00:12:52,876 --> 00:12:57,476
Speaker 3: Of course, you know heavy, oh Man, cheaper is What

214
00:12:57,636 --> 00:13:01,636
Speaker 3: Leslie didn't know was that revenge couldn't have been further

215
00:13:01,716 --> 00:13:04,596
Speaker 3: from our minds. When I set out on this trip,

216
00:13:04,716 --> 00:13:08,276
Speaker 3: I wanted to understand what happened and to get Leslie's

217
00:13:08,276 --> 00:13:11,476
Speaker 3: side of the story. It was important to get her

218
00:13:11,516 --> 00:13:14,356
Speaker 3: response to people all over the world saying she had

219
00:13:14,356 --> 00:13:17,556
Speaker 3: conned them. But at the end of our trip, I've

220
00:13:17,636 --> 00:13:21,836
Speaker 3: realized Leslie isn't some sort of two dimensional movie villain.

221
00:13:22,436 --> 00:13:25,676
Speaker 3: She's a complex person with motives. Maybe she doesn't even

222
00:13:25,676 --> 00:13:30,396
Speaker 3: fully understand, and maybe the person who has suffered the

223
00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:38,716
Speaker 3: most from what Leslie has done is Leslie herself. So

224
00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:47,276
Speaker 3: I don't feel vengeful. I just feel sad, sad for Leslie,

225
00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:51,196
Speaker 3: sad for everyone who felt deceived and devastated by her,

226
00:13:52,076 --> 00:13:59,116
Speaker 3: and sad for my brother Greg. I didn't know if

227
00:13:59,116 --> 00:14:01,556
Speaker 3: Greg would react like I did, so I told him

228
00:14:01,556 --> 00:14:02,796
Speaker 3: that Leslie might have been homeless.

229
00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:07,516
Speaker 8: It's hard to feel sorry for someone when they clearly

230
00:14:07,556 --> 00:14:12,716
Speaker 8: have choices. And the thing with Leslie is she's had

231
00:14:12,796 --> 00:14:16,596
Speaker 8: lots and lots and lots of choices. So her being

232
00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:22,796
Speaker 8: homeless supposedly that's bad, but that will be a consequence

233
00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:28,076
Speaker 8: of her actions, which will have affected lots of other

234
00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:32,476
Speaker 8: people around her, who let's call them the victims, So

235
00:14:32,596 --> 00:14:37,076
Speaker 8: that drops my sympathy down quite a few notches.

236
00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:42,076
Speaker 3: Around that time when Leslie might have been homeless, Greg

237
00:14:42,156 --> 00:14:43,596
Speaker 3: had got himself back on his feet.

238
00:14:44,716 --> 00:14:49,156
Speaker 8: So where I did get to was a lucky place.

239
00:14:50,196 --> 00:14:56,156
Speaker 8: I have a beautiful, highly supportive, intelligent wife, and we

240
00:14:56,236 --> 00:15:01,636
Speaker 8: have a pretty magical young daughter, and then we live

241
00:15:01,676 --> 00:15:05,476
Speaker 8: in a beautiful suburb. I've got a good job that

242
00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:11,836
Speaker 8: provides for us, and all of the good things are

243
00:15:11,836 --> 00:15:13,956
Speaker 8: ahead of us in life.

244
00:15:14,076 --> 00:15:16,916
Speaker 3: As for my mum and dad, they were mostly able

245
00:15:16,956 --> 00:15:19,836
Speaker 3: to move on too, and in case that happened after

246
00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:22,996
Speaker 3: Leslie left New Zealand. Mum and dad sued the lawyer

247
00:15:23,076 --> 00:15:26,116
Speaker 3: who worked on the Dragonfly deal. The matter was settled

248
00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:28,796
Speaker 3: before it went to court. I can't say much about

249
00:15:28,796 --> 00:15:31,516
Speaker 3: it for legal reasons, but it worked out that Mum

250
00:15:31,516 --> 00:15:33,676
Speaker 3: and Dad were able to get enough money to buy

251
00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:36,436
Speaker 3: a home of their own again. Dad had to go

252
00:15:36,516 --> 00:15:39,756
Speaker 3: back to work. But after a few years of tough times,

253
00:15:40,276 --> 00:15:42,556
Speaker 3: my parents got back to being happy where they are.

254
00:15:43,636 --> 00:15:46,556
Speaker 3: They even reflect on some good that came out of everything.

255
00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:53,316
Speaker 9: And now we honestly have moved on and don't really

256
00:15:53,356 --> 00:15:57,556
Speaker 9: think about that time much at all. It was a

257
00:15:57,716 --> 00:16:04,276
Speaker 9: very proops almost you could say, another defining moment for

258
00:16:04,356 --> 00:16:08,036
Speaker 9: our family. I think in many ways it brought us

259
00:16:08,036 --> 00:16:12,796
Speaker 9: all together, not that we were apart, but it spu

260
00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:15,116
Speaker 9: sputted us in pretty well.

261
00:16:15,436 --> 00:16:22,476
Speaker 1: Actually, for me, it's a gratitude. It's nothing to do

262
00:16:22,636 --> 00:16:29,516
Speaker 1: with her. It's how loved and cared for that we are,

263
00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:36,956
Speaker 1: that so many people cared for us, for the immediate family.

264
00:16:38,076 --> 00:16:47,276
Speaker 1: They were so amazingly brilliant, and you three for sticking

265
00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:52,396
Speaker 1: with it and holding us up. And at least we've

266
00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:56,076
Speaker 1: got something to talk about at dinner parties, so they're

267
00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:59,356
Speaker 1: not entirely free of us, not.

268
00:16:59,356 --> 00:17:01,956
Speaker 9: That we talk about it now at dinner parties.

269
00:17:02,596 --> 00:17:04,076
Speaker 1: We don't have dinner parties.

270
00:17:04,116 --> 00:17:04,836
Speaker 6: We're too old.

271
00:17:06,436 --> 00:17:09,596
Speaker 3: And like he always does, my brother Simon and sums

272
00:17:09,596 --> 00:17:10,476
Speaker 3: it up for us.

273
00:17:11,236 --> 00:17:13,596
Speaker 2: I'm actually really proud of us through it as well.

274
00:17:13,676 --> 00:17:16,436
Speaker 2: I don't know, like a big thing of this was

275
00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:18,796
Speaker 2: just how you know, and I always I always repeat it,

276
00:17:18,796 --> 00:17:20,876
Speaker 2: but kind of I don't. The reason that I don't

277
00:17:20,876 --> 00:17:23,556
Speaker 2: feel angry with her or kind of forgiven her is

278
00:17:23,636 --> 00:17:27,516
Speaker 2: just because of how close it made us, you know,

279
00:17:27,556 --> 00:17:30,756
Speaker 2: we changed as a family through this, and so yeah,

280
00:17:30,836 --> 00:17:33,516
Speaker 2: so I just yeah, I'm just I love look of

281
00:17:33,516 --> 00:17:34,956
Speaker 2: you guys came out of it.

282
00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:35,236
Speaker 5: Yeah.

283
00:17:35,396 --> 00:17:35,596
Speaker 4: Yeah.

284
00:17:38,076 --> 00:17:40,236
Speaker 3: For almost a year now, I haven't been able to

285
00:17:40,236 --> 00:17:42,756
Speaker 3: talk to my family without it being about this podcast.

286
00:17:43,116 --> 00:17:45,116
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to going back to talking about the

287
00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:47,476
Speaker 3: usual stuff like how to turn the video on.

288
00:17:49,796 --> 00:17:52,636
Speaker 6: Here we go. Ollie wants to connect with you on Skype,

289
00:17:52,836 --> 00:17:58,676
Speaker 6: except well, well we've got contact. Yeah, so hear me,

290
00:17:59,236 --> 00:18:01,316
Speaker 6: can't see me. I can see you.

291
00:18:01,156 --> 00:18:03,436
Speaker 3: And hear you, and I need to call Greg Moore.

292
00:18:03,956 --> 00:18:07,196
Speaker 3: I don't catch up with my brother nearly enough. This

293
00:18:07,356 --> 00:18:09,556
Speaker 3: whole thing has been a good reason and for us

294
00:18:09,596 --> 00:18:13,156
Speaker 3: to talk for me to understand something so profound in

295
00:18:13,196 --> 00:18:17,796
Speaker 3: his life. But it's been hard sometimes to draw a

296
00:18:17,836 --> 00:18:21,036
Speaker 3: line between my brother and the story I'm trying to tell.

297
00:18:22,396 --> 00:18:26,316
Speaker 3: One time Greg called me and he started to cry.

298
00:18:26,436 --> 00:18:28,756
Speaker 3: He was telling me about how he still feels pain

299
00:18:28,836 --> 00:18:32,476
Speaker 3: from what happened. Part of my brain was thinking, I

300
00:18:32,556 --> 00:18:35,196
Speaker 3: need to record this, call him back with the recorder on.

301
00:18:36,236 --> 00:18:38,876
Speaker 3: But the rest of me was thinking, my brother is

302
00:18:38,956 --> 00:18:41,716
Speaker 3: upset right now, and I need to be there for him.

303
00:18:42,876 --> 00:18:44,996
Speaker 3: You didn't hear that call because I stayed on the

304
00:18:45,036 --> 00:18:48,916
Speaker 3: line with him. To Greg, I'm not a journalist reporting

305
00:18:48,916 --> 00:18:56,476
Speaker 3: his story. I'm his brother. The story started with him,

306
00:18:56,516 --> 00:19:00,436
Speaker 3: and it needs to end with him. I asked Greg

307
00:19:00,476 --> 00:19:03,116
Speaker 3: to think about what he's taken away from this whole experience.

308
00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:07,796
Speaker 8: The important things are the things that are pretty close

309
00:19:07,836 --> 00:19:13,276
Speaker 8: to you, like family and friends and what can fulfill

310
00:19:13,316 --> 00:19:17,956
Speaker 8: you and make you happy. A lot of those things

311
00:19:17,996 --> 00:19:22,236
Speaker 8: are actually right in front of most people right now.

312
00:19:23,756 --> 00:19:27,796
Speaker 8: Things like being able to wake up on our weekend

313
00:19:29,116 --> 00:19:33,316
Speaker 8: and walk your daughter down to the local school so

314
00:19:33,356 --> 00:19:36,796
Speaker 8: she can play on the playground. You don't need to

315
00:19:37,796 --> 00:19:41,516
Speaker 8: have a Ferrari to drive her there. It didn't need

316
00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:49,756
Speaker 8: to be a life in the fast lane. The good

317
00:19:49,796 --> 00:19:57,636
Speaker 8: life is hopefully what most people can get, and that

318
00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:05,796
Speaker 8: is living on a regular street, doing regular things and

319
00:20:07,556 --> 00:20:12,236
Speaker 8: working hard for them. I think that's what it comes

320
00:20:12,236 --> 00:20:19,316
Speaker 8: down to, and there's a beauty simplicity that's hard to

321
00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:29,476
Speaker 8: replace with money and possessions they ultimately don't really satisfy.

322
00:20:29,636 --> 00:20:38,436
Speaker 8: I don't think what really matters was always here and

323
00:20:38,676 --> 00:20:40,836
Speaker 8: it was actually right in front of me.

324
00:20:56,396 --> 00:20:59,516
Speaker 3: I really hope you've enjoyed coming along for this ride.

325
00:21:00,516 --> 00:21:03,356
Speaker 3: You can find a bunch of extras, including a feature

326
00:21:03,436 --> 00:21:06,716
Speaker 3: article and the video of my confrontation with Leslie, at

327
00:21:06,716 --> 00:21:10,636
Speaker 3: the ABC's Unraveled True Crime website. You can hit me

328
00:21:10,716 --> 00:21:14,196
Speaker 3: up on Instagram at Ollie Ward's and if you share

329
00:21:14,196 --> 00:21:19,036
Speaker 3: this story, please use the hashtag Unravel true Crime roll.

330
00:21:19,036 --> 00:21:24,036
Speaker 3: The credits music Snowball is hosted and produced by me

331
00:21:24,356 --> 00:21:28,036
Speaker 3: Ollie Wards. Big love to my brother Greg and my

332
00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:31,636
Speaker 3: entire family for letting me tell this story, and thank

333
00:21:31,676 --> 00:21:34,076
Speaker 3: you so much to the awesome team I got to

334
00:21:34,116 --> 00:21:40,276
Speaker 3: work with, including Unravel's supervising producer Tim Roxborough, audio producer

335
00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:45,596
Speaker 3: Emma Lancaster, fact checking and additional audio production from Shane Anderson,

336
00:21:46,436 --> 00:21:51,716
Speaker 3: sound designers John Jacobs and Tim Jenkins, the biggest of

337
00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:56,596
Speaker 3: US to flight facilities for our themes on additional music

338
00:21:56,716 --> 00:22:01,236
Speaker 3: Bryce Halliday. Unravel is a product of ABC Audio Studios,

339
00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:06,476
Speaker 3: led by Kelly Reardon and Unravel's executive producer is Ian Walker.

340
00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:37,076
Speaker 5: Why wait wait wait wait wait wait, You'll never really

341
00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:38,316
Speaker 5: know what was real or not