WEBVTT - The Prisoners’ Dilemma of Performance-Enhancing Drugs 0:00:15.604 --> 0:00:29.124 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 0:00:29.284 --> 0:00:32.044 better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova. 0:00:31.644 --> 0:00:33.524 And I'm Nate Silver. 0:00:34.524 --> 0:00:39.364 I don't like it up, all right, Nate Silver. Today 0:00:39.604 --> 0:00:43.124 on the show, we're actually doing an episode that's inspired 0:00:43.164 --> 0:00:46.524 by one of our listeners, Brandon. So, by the way, listeners, 0:00:46.844 --> 0:00:51.644 please do keep sending us questions. And Brandon is wondering 0:00:51.764 --> 0:00:57.644 about performance enhancing drugs. He specifically asked for performance enhancing 0:00:57.724 --> 0:01:00.044 drugs outside of sports, but I think we'll be talking 0:01:00.044 --> 0:01:03.964 about sports as well. So in the army, he says 0:01:04.004 --> 0:01:07.604 that they talk a lot about alertness, decision making under stress. 0:01:08.324 --> 0:01:12.124 Caffeine is basically a field issue stimulant. He goes on 0:01:12.204 --> 0:01:16.284 to talk about adderall modafinal and the fact that it's 0:01:16.324 --> 0:01:20.684 being used not just in military, but you know, college students, professionals, 0:01:21.124 --> 0:01:23.684 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So he wants to 0:01:23.724 --> 0:01:28.244 know what are our thoughts and what are our experiences, 0:01:29.204 --> 0:01:32.124 and you know, it definitely does say a lot about 0:01:32.244 --> 0:01:37.404 modern performance culture. So this is a topic that I've 0:01:37.444 --> 0:01:40.604 done a lot of thinking about, both in the past 0:01:40.764 --> 0:01:44.684 but also obviously as I'm working on a book about cheating. 0:01:45.004 --> 0:01:47.484 You know, I do think about all of these ways 0:01:47.524 --> 0:01:50.564 to kind of enhance performance that may or may not 0:01:50.604 --> 0:01:54.764 be legal in any given setting. And I think there's 0:01:54.804 --> 0:01:57.084 a lot to say here. Do you want me to 0:01:57.084 --> 0:01:58.724 start with some thoughts, Nate, or do you want to 0:01:58.924 --> 0:02:03.524 kind of give you give your reaction. So, you know, 0:02:04.164 --> 0:02:06.924 people have been trying to figure out for decades, like 0:02:07.444 --> 0:02:08.524 how can I think better? 0:02:08.684 --> 0:02:08.804 Right? 0:02:08.884 --> 0:02:12.244 How can I perform better? How can I run better? 0:02:12.444 --> 0:02:15.924 How can I do everything just a little bit better? 0:02:16.204 --> 0:02:18.724 You know, it's kind of a perfect storm with kind 0:02:18.724 --> 0:02:22.364 of social media and technology and all of these things 0:02:22.444 --> 0:02:26.284 where we're in a culture that's obsessed with I mean, 0:02:26.324 --> 0:02:28.604 the culture has always been obsessed with youth, but now 0:02:28.604 --> 0:02:32.804 we feel like, finally like we're in then do not 0:02:32.964 --> 0:02:36.324 die ever moment that if I can just live for 0:02:36.364 --> 0:02:38.684 another ten years, I'll be close to the moment in 0:02:38.764 --> 0:02:41.844 time where we can all live forever or at least 0:02:42.004 --> 0:02:46.764 greatly expand our life expectancy and our healthy life expectancy. 0:02:47.004 --> 0:02:51.444 So don't die. And also let's absolutely optimize every single 0:02:51.764 --> 0:02:57.404 moment of every single day cognitive function, physical function. In 0:02:57.924 --> 0:03:03.284 the case of certain social media influencer gurus who also 0:03:03.404 --> 0:03:08.644 happen to run big companies that sell supplements a rectile 0:03:08.724 --> 0:03:13.204 function measured during the night. We won't be naming names, 0:03:13.204 --> 0:03:16.444 but I think anyone who's online knows exactly who I'm 0:03:16.484 --> 0:03:20.924 talking about right now. So how do you basically enhance 0:03:21.364 --> 0:03:26.484 every single element of existence to the max? And we're 0:03:26.524 --> 0:03:30.364 seeing things, Yes, some of them are pills. Modaffanel has 0:03:30.404 --> 0:03:32.964 been kind of in in the mix for a long time, 0:03:33.084 --> 0:03:36.204 so has adderall. There are other drugs that have been 0:03:37.124 --> 0:03:43.364 basically tested for Alzheimer's and that are now also kind 0:03:43.364 --> 0:03:46.404 of in that conversation. But it's not just drugs, right, 0:03:46.444 --> 0:03:51.484 It's things like cold plunges, infra red saunas. You know, 0:03:51.724 --> 0:03:53.884 do you do this to do that? 0:03:54.004 --> 0:03:54.124 Like? 0:03:54.644 --> 0:03:58.244 What can I possibly do to get just like a 0:03:58.324 --> 0:04:03.524 little bit better? And this is not a monolithic conversation 0:04:03.724 --> 0:04:08.484 in the sense that there's a big difference between like 0:04:08.564 --> 0:04:11.204 poker players who that they're going to microdose before a 0:04:11.244 --> 0:04:14.204 tournament because they think it's going to make them more 0:04:14.284 --> 0:04:17.084 creative and find better spots. This does happen, by the way, 0:04:17.084 --> 0:04:20.804 I'm not just throwing this out in the blue and 0:04:21.164 --> 0:04:25.724 like a Lance Armstrong who decides that, you know, everyone's 0:04:25.764 --> 0:04:29.004 doping in cycling, so I'm going to do it too, 0:04:29.044 --> 0:04:32.244 and we're going to create this culture where everyone is 0:04:32.364 --> 0:04:37.604 taking drugs that are explicitly forbidden to enhance their performance. Right, 0:04:37.764 --> 0:04:41.284 So we've got it's a huge spectrum, right, And there's 0:04:41.364 --> 0:04:44.284 a huge spectrum between the college student who decides to 0:04:44.284 --> 0:04:47.764 take adderall even though they technically don't have ADHD, so 0:04:47.804 --> 0:04:49.924 that they can finish a paper, which, by the way, Nate, 0:04:50.004 --> 0:04:52.564 is probably not happening anymore because you have chat GBT 0:04:53.204 --> 0:04:55.724 who's your aderol, who could just finish the paper for you, 0:04:56.084 --> 0:04:58.484 so you don't even need to take those supplements that 0:04:58.604 --> 0:05:01.764 was you know, long before, or the investment baggers taking 0:05:01.804 --> 0:05:03.924 cocaine in the middle of the night to kind of 0:05:03.964 --> 0:05:06.404 stay up and make sure that they can get their 0:05:07.284 --> 0:05:09.844 their spreadsheets or whatever it is that they're doing done 0:05:09.884 --> 0:05:13.124 by the morning. And then the wellness gurus who say, well, 0:05:13.724 --> 0:05:17.404 even though medafinil is a drug that was developed for 0:05:17.804 --> 0:05:22.644 narcolepsy and sometimes to treat ADHD and may not be 0:05:22.724 --> 0:05:24.924 the thing that I should be taken to kind of 0:05:25.004 --> 0:05:27.964 enhance my concentration, even though there's a little bit of 0:05:28.044 --> 0:05:30.644 data on that. But I'm going to do it just 0:05:30.684 --> 0:05:33.844 in case because I want to kind of maximize my 0:05:34.204 --> 0:05:37.484 ability to be the full me. All of these things 0:05:37.484 --> 0:05:40.564 are different, right, and I have different opinions on these, 0:05:41.364 --> 0:05:45.564 on the different gradations along the way, and even ones 0:05:45.604 --> 0:05:49.524 that seem very straightforward, such as, you know, we should 0:05:49.564 --> 0:05:54.044 not be allowing any performance enhancing drugs in sports, When 0:05:54.084 --> 0:05:57.164 you start digging down, it ends up that some of 0:05:57.204 --> 0:05:59.404 them might be like a little bit murkier than you 0:05:59.444 --> 0:06:01.764 would think, right. I would I would love to say 0:06:01.764 --> 0:06:03.524 that I'm just you know, we shouldn't be doing any 0:06:03.564 --> 0:06:06.724 of this, but you know, as are as listener Brandon 0:06:06.724 --> 0:06:10.284 points out, caffeine is a great performance enhancing drug, right, 0:06:10.324 --> 0:06:14.364 So it's not like everyone is living this existence where 0:06:14.404 --> 0:06:19.764 we're not taking any substances to increase performance. You need 0:06:19.804 --> 0:06:24.404 to kind of figure out what exactly are you talking about. 0:06:24.444 --> 0:06:26.284 And I think that this is one of those episodes 0:06:26.324 --> 0:06:29.084 where there are going to be a lot of shades 0:06:29.124 --> 0:06:31.924 of gray. I think that it's one of these case 0:06:31.964 --> 0:06:36.124 by case basis where you have to really understand what's 0:06:36.164 --> 0:06:39.164 the intention here, what are the data here, what is 0:06:39.364 --> 0:06:42.524 the responsibility here, and what are the rules here? 0:06:43.004 --> 0:06:46.924 Yeah, in the poker world, do you have an interesting 0:06:46.964 --> 0:06:52.244 cross section of a little bit of everything. Right, you 0:06:52.484 --> 0:06:57.404 certainly have some stimulant use ranging for people who are 0:06:57.564 --> 0:06:59.884 probably taking out of all the people who are taking 0:06:59.964 --> 0:07:02.764 zims or vaping you. 0:07:02.964 --> 0:07:07.044 Oh yeah, by the way, let me just interrupt you 0:07:07.084 --> 0:07:11.804 immediately just to say, we said caffeine, but nicotine is 0:07:11.884 --> 0:07:15.564 another huge performance enhancing drug that people take all the time, 0:07:15.804 --> 0:07:18.964 and zin is gaining huge market shares. I seeeson at 0:07:18.964 --> 0:07:20.044 the poker tables all the time. 0:07:20.084 --> 0:07:23.484 Please continue, Yeah, and in part because like those are 0:07:25.004 --> 0:07:27.364 as weird as smoking cigarettes, right, which is more disruptive, 0:07:27.724 --> 0:07:29.444 you know, those are kind of more discreet ways to 0:07:29.484 --> 0:07:32.004 do with that, you know. But yeah, people are taking 0:07:32.004 --> 0:07:38.964 anterall people are. There's varying amounts of drinking. People are 0:07:38.964 --> 0:07:41.484 different tolerances. I will often have a best of one 0:07:41.564 --> 0:07:44.444 or two at dinner a poker tournament, right, But like everyone, 0:07:44.484 --> 0:07:46.324 we have differently different things, you know what I mean. 0:07:47.284 --> 0:07:48.684 And so you have to know kind of your own 0:07:48.684 --> 0:07:51.524 I'm not claim aning of this is game theory optimal, right, 0:07:51.524 --> 0:07:52.924 you have to kind of know your own physiology a 0:07:52.964 --> 0:07:55.204 little bit, but not as much drinking as you might 0:07:55.244 --> 0:07:58.804 have seen twenty years ago, you know, I've always surprised 0:07:58.844 --> 0:08:03.844 that there are some players who get quite stoned on 0:08:04.404 --> 0:08:06.764 dinner breaks and stuff like that, or any break, right. 0:08:08.244 --> 0:08:10.324 I mean, we were talking about the well known player 0:08:10.444 --> 0:08:14.204 Maria the other day who seemed to me quite stone 0:08:14.204 --> 0:08:16.364 and not playing optimally, And you have some of those, 0:08:16.404 --> 0:08:18.204 but like there are some people who are microdocing on 0:08:18.244 --> 0:08:21.004 different things, and like again I don't know, right, it's 0:08:21.004 --> 0:08:24.844 also partly a matter of habit, right, for whatever reason, 0:08:26.164 --> 0:08:29.084 probably done more drugs than you in my life, Maria 0:08:29.284 --> 0:08:33.244 forever reason. Like I've just never really tried to play 0:08:34.444 --> 0:08:37.804 poker under the influence of THC, though I'm not familiar 0:08:37.844 --> 0:08:40.044 with THC, whereas I have on alcohol, and so like 0:08:40.044 --> 0:08:41.644 you're just kind of like part of what you're familiar 0:08:41.724 --> 0:08:43.724 with I think about poker. It's also important, though, is 0:08:43.764 --> 0:08:50.284 like these are really long sessions, particularly in tournaments, right, 0:08:50.884 --> 0:08:54.884 So things that sustain energy and focus for a long time, 0:08:54.964 --> 0:08:58.084 like you know, you don't typically see like necessarily like 0:08:58.124 --> 0:09:02.044 a lot of like cocaine used to take an extreme 0:09:02.084 --> 0:09:04.724 example of poke returnaments because like that is a drug 0:09:04.764 --> 0:09:07.884 where you kind of burn brightly for very quickly and 0:09:07.924 --> 0:09:11.844 then crash out right. You know that will work if 0:09:11.844 --> 0:09:15.804 you're playing from noon to midnight in some tournament. I mean, 0:09:15.884 --> 0:09:17.684 unless you're taking a lot of it, I guess right. 0:09:17.844 --> 0:09:20.604 But adderall, which is kind of a controlled version of speed, 0:09:21.484 --> 0:09:25.644 is something and riddle. These are things that are that 0:09:25.764 --> 0:09:30.764 are actually incredibly common in the poker world, and they 0:09:30.844 --> 0:09:33.724 are common not just in the poker world, but in 0:09:33.764 --> 0:09:38.884 all sorts of professions that require concentration, right, that require 0:09:39.084 --> 0:09:42.604 people to kind of pay attention for long periods of time. 0:09:42.964 --> 0:09:45.764 And the funny thing is, so I've actually written about this, 0:09:46.044 --> 0:09:50.284 and I have kind of dug a little bit deeper 0:09:50.284 --> 0:09:52.924 into the data. With drugs like adderall, I think this 0:09:52.964 --> 0:09:56.084 is true of a lot of performance enhancing drugs when 0:09:56.164 --> 0:10:01.444 you are taking anything that is off label, right, which 0:10:01.524 --> 0:10:06.764 means that it's not prescribed for this exact condition, especially 0:10:06.924 --> 0:10:12.164 when it's something that is for a cognitive function and 0:10:12.564 --> 0:10:17.484 meant to counteract something that is kind of a neurological 0:10:18.444 --> 0:10:24.204 abnormality or something that is kind of not a neurotypical brain. 0:10:24.644 --> 0:10:27.484 When you put it into a neurotypical brain that doesn't 0:10:27.484 --> 0:10:31.764 have these issues, you might get some benefits, but also 0:10:31.764 --> 0:10:36.084 some unintended side effects. So the funny thing I mean, 0:10:36.244 --> 0:10:39.844 I think it's funny because I don't do adderall or 0:10:39.924 --> 0:10:42.684 riddle an off label. The funny thing about it is 0:10:42.724 --> 0:10:46.604 that there's actually a disconnect when you take these drugs, 0:10:46.644 --> 0:10:49.724 quite often with what you think your work product is 0:10:49.764 --> 0:10:52.284 and what it actually is, because it does put you 0:10:52.324 --> 0:10:56.564 into this like laser focus where you think, oh, I'm 0:10:56.604 --> 0:10:59.644 writing like a brilliant paper, or I'm creating this brilliant 0:10:59.684 --> 0:11:02.404 work product, or if I'm playing pogram, you know, being 0:11:02.444 --> 0:11:05.684 able to execute all these wonderful creative lines. But it 0:11:05.844 --> 0:11:12.124 actually really dampens creativity and makes you create things that 0:11:12.484 --> 0:11:16.244 to you might seem great, but that actually objectively you're 0:11:16.284 --> 0:11:20.244 working a lot, but your work output is not necessarily 0:11:21.524 --> 0:11:24.604 what you think it is. And so it's a very 0:11:24.604 --> 0:11:29.644 funny disconnect between self perception and actual performance. And so 0:11:29.844 --> 0:11:32.724 when it comes to cognitive enhancement, that is something that 0:11:32.764 --> 0:11:35.884 you see now. Obviously when it's physical, usually there's no 0:11:35.964 --> 0:11:39.044 disconnect between what you think you're doing and how you're 0:11:39.084 --> 0:11:41.884 doing because you have an objective measure immediately, right, am 0:11:41.924 --> 0:11:44.564 I running faster? Am I cycling faster? Am I able 0:11:44.604 --> 0:11:46.404 to actually lift more weight? 0:11:46.604 --> 0:11:46.844 Right? 0:11:47.604 --> 0:11:51.204 When I use steroids? Whatever it is? But when it 0:11:51.244 --> 0:11:54.004 comes to cognitive enhancement, you have these funny things. 0:11:54.604 --> 0:11:56.844 Yeah, we talked to Nick Thompson, the author of The 0:11:56.884 --> 0:11:59.644 Running Round. Nick is one of the best runners in 0:11:59.684 --> 0:12:02.124 the world and age class the other week. Right, Well, 0:12:02.124 --> 0:12:05.044 one of the things about running is that there's not 0:12:05.124 --> 0:12:08.044 much variation in it, right, You're running of existence. Most 0:12:08.044 --> 0:12:11.684 people who a runners are running a few routes. If 0:12:11.684 --> 0:12:13.964 they run commonly. That can be a few things. It 0:12:14.004 --> 0:12:17.524 can be traffic, right, you can other joggers and stuff 0:12:17.564 --> 0:12:20.084 like that, right, or wind or weather right, But like 0:12:21.164 --> 0:12:24.724 for the most part, it can be a fairly objective 0:12:24.844 --> 0:12:29.124 benchmark about your kind of overall partiovascular et cetera health 0:12:29.604 --> 0:12:33.524 that day, in your effort level. Whereas in poker it's 0:12:33.564 --> 0:12:37.844 extremely noisy. You know, the best poker players might have 0:12:38.044 --> 0:12:41.124 in the tough field and ROI of plus ten percent 0:12:41.284 --> 0:12:45.844 and a mediocre player on his B game, not the 0:12:45.844 --> 0:12:48.484 C game, not the F game, but like on this 0:12:48.604 --> 0:12:51.404 B game, right, might be minus ten percent, right, plus 0:12:51.404 --> 0:12:52.764 ten which is minus saying oh, of course, of one 0:12:52.804 --> 0:12:55.804 poker tournament. You don't protect the dissample of like hundreds 0:12:55.844 --> 0:12:59.444 of tournaments to distinguish those And yeah, I certainly have had. 0:12:59.844 --> 0:13:02.484 It's kind of a common thing among writers too, to 0:13:02.684 --> 0:13:08.204 use like things like adderall. I've certainly been around people 0:13:08.564 --> 0:13:13.484 who seem to be constantly on adderall and they're talking 0:13:13.644 --> 0:13:16.044 a mile a minute and they're kind of hyper right 0:13:16.124 --> 0:13:19.204 and kind of babbling, And you know, that's not a 0:13:19.284 --> 0:13:21.564 drug that leaves me with a great impression. But like again, 0:13:21.604 --> 0:13:24.404 I'm not gonna my own habits right, good and bad. 0:13:24.444 --> 0:13:27.764 I'm not gonna creaque anybody. My empirical experience is that 0:13:27.844 --> 0:13:31.364 one's a bit more noticeable than than some of the others, 0:13:31.844 --> 0:13:34.324 maybe among the drugs that people are kind of using 0:13:34.404 --> 0:13:36.804 for cognitive entancement. 0:13:37.284 --> 0:13:42.004 Yeah, so just full disclaimer, I've never used any cognitive 0:13:42.164 --> 0:13:46.564 enhancing pills. And I say pills because I drink a 0:13:46.644 --> 0:13:51.244 fuck ton of caffeine. Okay, yeah, so like and I've 0:13:51.284 --> 0:13:54.924 actually never used nicotine, so I've never I'm I'm gonna 0:13:55.324 --> 0:13:57.604 come across those kind of this goody two shoes, but 0:13:57.644 --> 0:14:00.884 I do I drink, and you know, I'm not doing 0:14:00.884 --> 0:14:04.644 this for like moral reasons or anything. It's just not 0:14:05.004 --> 0:14:06.564 I don't think it's right for me. And also I 0:14:06.644 --> 0:14:08.684 have a lot of allergies and can stand smoke. But 0:14:08.724 --> 0:14:12.044 I've never used any nicotine products. I've never smoked cigarettes. 0:14:12.164 --> 0:14:15.764 No nicotine. By the way, poker players also love nicotine pills, 0:14:15.884 --> 0:14:18.764 nicotine patches, not just poker players. Like this is stuff 0:14:18.804 --> 0:14:22.444 that people use. They get into the science and they 0:14:22.484 --> 0:14:25.124 listen to the kind of gurus of how to enhance 0:14:25.164 --> 0:14:28.044 your performance peak performance at any given time, and they 0:14:28.084 --> 0:14:31.884 do stuff like that. So just total disclaimer, I've never 0:14:31.964 --> 0:14:35.164 used any of those, but I do use caffeine. And 0:14:35.404 --> 0:14:38.844 when I play poker, I am always drinking green tea, 0:14:38.884 --> 0:14:42.284 and I specifically drink green tea because I've done the 0:14:42.324 --> 0:14:46.324 research and I know that green tea has the best 0:14:46.924 --> 0:14:52.084 kind of way of absorbing elthonine into your brain, which 0:14:52.124 --> 0:14:56.924 helps you sustain your attention for longer periods of time. 0:14:57.284 --> 0:15:01.084 Am I using a performance enhancing drug, Nate, you know 0:15:01.124 --> 0:15:03.244 what I mean? Like I realized, I'm not trying to 0:15:03.364 --> 0:15:06.044 practice semantics here. All I'm saying is that we do 0:15:06.164 --> 0:15:08.924 make choices all the time that try to optimize how 0:15:08.964 --> 0:15:11.804 we're doing today. By the way, no amount of green 0:15:11.844 --> 0:15:14.404 tea is probably going to make me at absolute peak 0:15:14.444 --> 0:15:17.004 performance because I didn't get that much sleep. And what 0:15:17.044 --> 0:15:20.004 we know is the number one cognitive enhancing drug is sleep. 0:15:20.524 --> 0:15:24.764 Like nothing else, nothing else comes even close. So getting 0:15:24.884 --> 0:15:28.084 proper amounts of sleep is just like, you know, light 0:15:28.164 --> 0:15:31.804 years ahead of anything else. And so when you do 0:15:31.884 --> 0:15:36.564 something like that, well obviously it's not a performance enhancing drug, 0:15:36.604 --> 0:15:39.564 but it might as well be. So you know, there 0:15:39.604 --> 0:15:44.484 are so let's just I guess put a disclaimer and say, Okay, yes, 0:15:44.564 --> 0:15:48.724 there's things that everyone does, like caffeine and it might 0:15:48.884 --> 0:15:52.884 give you a little bit more cognitive power. And then 0:15:53.044 --> 0:15:57.884 there are other things that people use that are more 0:15:59.084 --> 0:16:03.364 out there, and we can argue that while nicotine is 0:16:03.364 --> 0:16:06.004 closer to caffeine, or we can argue that it's not, 0:16:06.404 --> 0:16:11.244 but modafino definitely kind of on the other on the other. 0:16:11.124 --> 0:16:11.684 Side of that. 0:16:12.164 --> 0:16:14.604 And do you have a prescription, right, is it something 0:16:14.644 --> 0:16:18.044 that you are actually using correctly because you need to. 0:16:18.364 --> 0:16:20.084 Oh and by the way, if you do have a 0:16:20.084 --> 0:16:22.404 prescription for it because you need to, is that giving 0:16:22.444 --> 0:16:26.284 you an unfair advantage? Is it giving you an unfair edge? 0:16:26.404 --> 0:16:29.084 They're all of these, you know, when we start getting 0:16:29.124 --> 0:16:31.684 into the ethics of it. Oh and by the way, 0:16:31.764 --> 0:16:35.204 poker doesn't ban any sort of substances, So that's like 0:16:35.844 --> 0:16:37.204 That's another thing here. 0:16:37.124 --> 0:16:42.564 Right, there's a didn't sama, which is yes, there was, 0:16:42.924 --> 0:16:43.244 there was. 0:16:44.044 --> 0:16:47.124 It's like, come on, yeah, he proposed a drug free 0:16:47.284 --> 0:16:49.884 poker tournament where you could not where you'd get tested, 0:16:49.924 --> 0:16:52.524 and you weren't allowed to use anything. I don't know 0:16:52.564 --> 0:16:55.284 if caffeine was included in that, because if it was, 0:16:55.364 --> 0:17:00.524 then you know, sorry, Tom, I'm I'm totally out. But 0:17:00.524 --> 0:17:02.284 but yeah, I do want to say that it's not 0:17:02.524 --> 0:17:05.444 against the rules in poker to take whatever the fuck 0:17:05.484 --> 0:17:07.644 you want to take, And to be perfectly honest, I 0:17:07.724 --> 0:17:09.284 would say, like, if you want to take it, go 0:17:09.484 --> 0:17:12.324 right ahead, because I actually don't think it gives you 0:17:12.404 --> 0:17:14.124 that much of an edge, and I think it sometimes 0:17:14.204 --> 0:17:15.204 might make you play worse. 0:17:18.044 --> 0:17:29.524 And we'll be right back after this break. 0:17:37.204 --> 0:17:41.964 We can put some bounds on this, right, Like, It's 0:17:42.004 --> 0:17:46.084 not like in poker there are look, you could make 0:17:47.204 --> 0:17:51.484 educated guesses about exactly which helpful and or unhelpful substances 0:17:51.524 --> 0:17:56.684 different players are taking, you know, maybe apart from the 0:17:56.724 --> 0:17:59.884 really stone players and the really adderally ones. Right, And 0:17:59.924 --> 0:18:04.684 it's not necessarily so obvious, right, you know, it's not 0:18:04.724 --> 0:18:08.204 like there's some class of players that are like thirty 0:18:08.204 --> 0:18:10.764 percent better than the rest. You're like, oh, they're all 0:18:10.764 --> 0:18:13.284 on the drug apps, right, And there are exotic things 0:18:13.324 --> 0:18:15.724 that are very subtle. You know, some of the players 0:18:15.764 --> 0:18:19.964 take beta blockers. I'm not an expert in any of 0:18:20.004 --> 0:18:21.644 this stuff, but I think it has the effect of 0:18:21.684 --> 0:18:24.404 like lowering your heart rate and things like that, which 0:18:24.444 --> 0:18:29.524 can be helpful to a remain calmer maybe when you're 0:18:29.604 --> 0:18:32.604 under high stress, and or to reduce the appearance of 0:18:32.604 --> 0:18:33.244 physical tells. 0:18:33.284 --> 0:18:33.364 Right. 0:18:33.404 --> 0:18:35.164 I remember actually the main event of the World Series 0:18:35.204 --> 0:18:37.084 right where there was a guy I put against a 0:18:37.164 --> 0:18:40.204 day two or day three right saying, right across from him, 0:18:40.764 --> 0:18:42.404 he just kind of thing where like his heart was 0:18:42.444 --> 0:18:45.724 like literally kind of very visible, and it's whatever artery 0:18:46.004 --> 0:18:50.524 carctorate or something artery, right, every player knows it corroded, corroded. 0:18:51.004 --> 0:18:56.204 And it was the most visible instance of this I'd 0:18:56.244 --> 0:18:58.324 ever seen. It's the main event. He had a fairly 0:18:58.324 --> 0:19:03.244 big sack on day three whatever it was. And and furthermore, 0:19:03.484 --> 0:19:05.364 he basically had like a running heart rate monitor for 0:19:05.404 --> 0:19:09.244 this player at all times, right, Like furthermore, I quickly 0:19:09.484 --> 0:19:10.884 do so there was a pattern that when he has 0:19:10.924 --> 0:19:13.364 a good hand, some players actually more nerves than their bluffing, right, 0:19:13.604 --> 0:19:15.124 this guy waiting in a big hand. Do you start 0:19:15.164 --> 0:19:18.204 to see boom boom boom boom of this kind of 0:19:18.724 --> 0:19:21.404 it was kind of funny, right, but like, yeah, but 0:19:21.444 --> 0:19:25.124 the physical tell you know, if if you start having 0:19:25.164 --> 0:19:27.524 a bunch of predictable involuntary takes, or if you can 0:19:27.564 --> 0:19:30.884 suppress those ticks in some ways, you know, it's not 0:19:30.964 --> 0:19:33.564 creating just like a pigd use. And poker is not 0:19:33.564 --> 0:19:36.284 created as like some yeah moral panic wearers and the 0:19:36.284 --> 0:19:40.044 other world I know sports then than it is of course, yeah, 0:19:40.084 --> 0:19:40.844 And I think. 0:19:40.764 --> 0:19:43.004 So let's uh, let's actually talk about that a little 0:19:43.004 --> 0:19:46.844 bit because so I have very very different perspectives about 0:19:47.324 --> 0:19:49.724 using all of these drugs, all of these techniques, whatever 0:19:49.884 --> 0:19:52.924 whatever you want to use when it is allowed versus 0:19:52.964 --> 0:19:56.484 when it's not allowed. So poker, you know, knock yourself out. 0:19:56.564 --> 0:19:59.124 If you are an investment banker and you want to 0:19:59.164 --> 0:20:01.484 add her all it up or cocaine it up or whatever, 0:20:01.524 --> 0:20:05.604 it is awesome, like you do you right, and if 0:20:05.644 --> 0:20:09.644 your superiors are happy with your work, awesome. My onion 0:20:09.764 --> 0:20:14.324 changes completely when we have explicit rules that say, okay, 0:20:14.764 --> 0:20:19.004 you can not take you know, these performance enhancing drugs 0:20:19.044 --> 0:20:22.804 right when we're talking about cycling. The argument but everyone's 0:20:22.844 --> 0:20:25.244 doing it to me holds no water, right, I don't 0:20:25.284 --> 0:20:29.644 fucking care like that. That is, if it's a rule, 0:20:29.684 --> 0:20:32.644 that it means that everyone is cheating. If everyone is cheating, 0:20:32.644 --> 0:20:34.724 either you call out the cheating, you quit the sport, 0:20:34.764 --> 0:20:38.204 you know, you do something else. And it's interesting because there, 0:20:39.284 --> 0:20:42.764 you know, as I've been kind of researching cheating in games, 0:20:43.244 --> 0:20:47.644 I talked to a baseball player who was roommates with 0:20:47.844 --> 0:20:54.684 another player who was suspended for for using steroids and 0:20:56.084 --> 0:20:59.644 coast I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say anything else, Nate. 0:20:59.684 --> 0:21:02.804 You know these sports a little too well. And it 0:21:02.924 --> 0:21:05.644 was one of these things where you know, this roommate said, 0:21:06.124 --> 0:21:10.084 like I, you know, people were doing I just thought 0:21:10.084 --> 0:21:12.604 it was wrong, so I didn't and like, I have 0:21:12.684 --> 0:21:15.404 no regrets about it, even though kind if my roommate 0:21:15.484 --> 0:21:18.004 ended up having like a much more storied career for 0:21:18.084 --> 0:21:21.204 a time than I did, because like I, you know, 0:21:21.444 --> 0:21:25.924 I said, I basically said no, and my career ended 0:21:26.284 --> 0:21:28.804 like I, you know, eventually kind of had to retire. 0:21:28.964 --> 0:21:32.404 And but it's not like you're forced to do it. 0:21:32.444 --> 0:21:36.564 You make choices. So anyway, you can. I don't care if, like, 0:21:36.844 --> 0:21:39.084 if the culture is that everyone is doing it. What 0:21:39.204 --> 0:21:41.164 I care about it is it within the rules or 0:21:41.244 --> 0:21:44.124 is it not within the rules. And if you it's 0:21:44.164 --> 0:21:47.204 not within the rules and you're doing it, then you're cheating. 0:21:47.284 --> 0:21:49.844 And if you're trying to figure out ways of doing 0:21:49.884 --> 0:21:52.724 it without getting caught by using these new drugs and 0:21:52.764 --> 0:21:55.204 aren't yet detectable on tests, then again you're cheating, and 0:21:55.244 --> 0:21:58.084 you're cheating in an even more kind of insidious way. 0:21:58.164 --> 0:22:03.484 That is ruining the kind of sportsmanship right the the 0:22:04.084 --> 0:22:09.564 playing field for everyone else, and that is kind of 0:22:09.644 --> 0:22:14.084 ruining the integrity of your sport. And I you know, 0:22:14.564 --> 0:22:18.604 things like Nate, you know, the enhanced games that were 0:22:18.724 --> 0:22:23.884 announced like that. I'm like, yeah, like, what what are 0:22:23.924 --> 0:22:27.524 we even talking about? Like, I guess people, you know, 0:22:27.684 --> 0:22:29.924 you want to see a lot of people on steroids 0:22:29.964 --> 0:22:32.364 go like to me, that's not even a sport. I'm like, well, 0:22:32.884 --> 0:22:34.724 what are we even doing here? And I think a 0:22:34.724 --> 0:22:38.444 lot of athletes felt the same way. So on the 0:22:38.524 --> 0:22:40.204 one hand, I said, there were going to be a 0:22:40.204 --> 0:22:45.164 lot of shades of gray here and this seems black 0:22:45.204 --> 0:22:47.204 and white, But I'm actually going to take a step 0:22:47.244 --> 0:22:49.084 back and put it back into the shades of gray. 0:22:49.484 --> 0:22:54.764 So one of my favorite sports stories that I think 0:22:54.764 --> 0:22:57.404 I've mentioned on this podcast before, but I'm just going 0:22:57.444 --> 0:23:00.924 to say it again was this champion of Finnish skier 0:23:01.124 --> 0:23:05.444 whom I've written about in the past, Iro Manturanta. I 0:23:05.484 --> 0:23:08.964 apologize if I'm mispronouncing that I don't speak Finnish, but 0:23:09.084 --> 0:23:14.324 he one seven Olympic medals over four games, three gold medals, 0:23:14.404 --> 0:23:19.044 two silver medals, two bronze medals, and at the time, 0:23:19.124 --> 0:23:22.364 like no one had done anything comparable, right, Like that's 0:23:22.364 --> 0:23:25.684 insane if you're thinking about seven metals over four games, like, 0:23:26.004 --> 0:23:30.644 holy shit. And he was accused of doping, and he 0:23:30.764 --> 0:23:33.524 was tested, and it seemed to confirm that he was 0:23:33.564 --> 0:23:39.084 doping because the red blood cells in his blood there 0:23:39.084 --> 0:23:42.764 were multiple deviations away from the average range, and so 0:23:42.924 --> 0:23:45.804 he was accused of doping. But then it turned out 0:23:45.804 --> 0:23:48.484 that he didn't dope. He was actually clean, and he 0:23:48.604 --> 0:23:53.204 carried a genetic mutation in a receptor that controls the 0:23:53.244 --> 0:23:59.964