1 00:00:15,604 --> 00:00:29,124 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 2 00:00:29,284 --> 00:00:32,044 Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kannakova. 3 00:00:31,644 --> 00:00:33,524 Speaker 2: And I'm Nate Silver. 4 00:00:34,524 --> 00:00:39,364 Speaker 1: I don't like it up, all right, Nate Silver. Today 5 00:00:39,604 --> 00:00:43,124 Speaker 1: on the show, we're actually doing an episode that's inspired 6 00:00:43,164 --> 00:00:46,524 Speaker 1: by one of our listeners, Brandon. So, by the way, listeners, 7 00:00:46,844 --> 00:00:51,644 Speaker 1: please do keep sending us questions. And Brandon is wondering 8 00:00:51,764 --> 00:00:57,644 Speaker 1: about performance enhancing drugs. He specifically asked for performance enhancing 9 00:00:57,724 --> 00:01:00,044 Speaker 1: drugs outside of sports, but I think we'll be talking 10 00:01:00,044 --> 00:01:03,964 Speaker 1: about sports as well. So in the army, he says 11 00:01:04,004 --> 00:01:07,604 Speaker 1: that they talk a lot about alertness, decision making under stress. 12 00:01:08,324 --> 00:01:12,124 Speaker 1: Caffeine is basically a field issue stimulant. He goes on 13 00:01:12,204 --> 00:01:16,284 Speaker 1: to talk about adderall modafinal and the fact that it's 14 00:01:16,324 --> 00:01:20,684 Speaker 1: being used not just in military, but you know, college students, professionals, 15 00:01:21,124 --> 00:01:23,684 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So he wants to 16 00:01:23,724 --> 00:01:28,244 Speaker 1: know what are our thoughts and what are our experiences, 17 00:01:29,204 --> 00:01:32,124 Speaker 1: and you know, it definitely does say a lot about 18 00:01:32,244 --> 00:01:37,404 Speaker 1: modern performance culture. So this is a topic that I've 19 00:01:37,444 --> 00:01:40,604 Speaker 1: done a lot of thinking about, both in the past 20 00:01:40,764 --> 00:01:44,684 Speaker 1: but also obviously as I'm working on a book about cheating. 21 00:01:45,004 --> 00:01:47,484 Speaker 1: You know, I do think about all of these ways 22 00:01:47,524 --> 00:01:50,564 Speaker 1: to kind of enhance performance that may or may not 23 00:01:50,604 --> 00:01:54,764 Speaker 1: be legal in any given setting. And I think there's 24 00:01:54,804 --> 00:01:57,084 Speaker 1: a lot to say here. Do you want me to 25 00:01:57,084 --> 00:01:58,724 Speaker 1: start with some thoughts, Nate, or do you want to 26 00:01:58,924 --> 00:02:03,524 Speaker 1: kind of give you give your reaction. So, you know, 27 00:02:04,164 --> 00:02:06,924 Speaker 1: people have been trying to figure out for decades, like 28 00:02:07,444 --> 00:02:08,524 Speaker 1: how can I think better? 29 00:02:08,684 --> 00:02:08,804 Speaker 2: Right? 30 00:02:08,884 --> 00:02:12,244 Speaker 1: How can I perform better? How can I run better? 31 00:02:12,444 --> 00:02:15,924 Speaker 1: How can I do everything just a little bit better? 32 00:02:16,204 --> 00:02:18,724 Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of a perfect storm with kind 33 00:02:18,724 --> 00:02:22,364 Speaker 1: of social media and technology and all of these things 34 00:02:22,444 --> 00:02:26,284 Speaker 1: where we're in a culture that's obsessed with I mean, 35 00:02:26,324 --> 00:02:28,604 Speaker 1: the culture has always been obsessed with youth, but now 36 00:02:28,604 --> 00:02:32,804 Speaker 1: we feel like, finally like we're in then do not 37 00:02:32,964 --> 00:02:36,324 Speaker 1: die ever moment that if I can just live for 38 00:02:36,364 --> 00:02:38,684 Speaker 1: another ten years, I'll be close to the moment in 39 00:02:38,764 --> 00:02:41,844 Speaker 1: time where we can all live forever or at least 40 00:02:42,004 --> 00:02:46,764 Speaker 1: greatly expand our life expectancy and our healthy life expectancy. 41 00:02:47,004 --> 00:02:51,444 Speaker 1: So don't die. And also let's absolutely optimize every single 42 00:02:51,764 --> 00:02:57,404 Speaker 1: moment of every single day cognitive function, physical function. In 43 00:02:57,924 --> 00:03:03,284 Speaker 1: the case of certain social media influencer gurus who also 44 00:03:03,404 --> 00:03:08,644 Speaker 1: happen to run big companies that sell supplements a rectile 45 00:03:08,724 --> 00:03:13,204 Speaker 1: function measured during the night. We won't be naming names, 46 00:03:13,204 --> 00:03:16,444 Speaker 1: but I think anyone who's online knows exactly who I'm 47 00:03:16,484 --> 00:03:20,924 Speaker 1: talking about right now. So how do you basically enhance 48 00:03:21,364 --> 00:03:26,484 Speaker 1: every single element of existence to the max? And we're 49 00:03:26,524 --> 00:03:30,364 Speaker 1: seeing things, Yes, some of them are pills. Modaffanel has 50 00:03:30,404 --> 00:03:32,964 Speaker 1: been kind of in in the mix for a long time, 51 00:03:33,084 --> 00:03:36,204 Speaker 1: so has adderall. There are other drugs that have been 52 00:03:37,124 --> 00:03:43,364 Speaker 1: basically tested for Alzheimer's and that are now also kind 53 00:03:43,364 --> 00:03:46,404 Speaker 1: of in that conversation. But it's not just drugs, right, 54 00:03:46,444 --> 00:03:51,484 Speaker 1: It's things like cold plunges, infra red saunas. You know, 55 00:03:51,724 --> 00:03:53,884 Speaker 1: do you do this to do that? 56 00:03:54,004 --> 00:03:54,124 Speaker 2: Like? 57 00:03:54,644 --> 00:03:58,244 Speaker 1: What can I possibly do to get just like a 58 00:03:58,324 --> 00:04:03,524 Speaker 1: little bit better? And this is not a monolithic conversation 59 00:04:03,724 --> 00:04:08,484 Speaker 1: in the sense that there's a big difference between like 60 00:04:08,564 --> 00:04:11,204 Speaker 1: poker players who that they're going to microdose before a 61 00:04:11,244 --> 00:04:14,204 Speaker 1: tournament because they think it's going to make them more 62 00:04:14,284 --> 00:04:17,084 Speaker 1: creative and find better spots. This does happen, by the way, 63 00:04:17,084 --> 00:04:20,804 Speaker 1: I'm not just throwing this out in the blue and 64 00:04:21,164 --> 00:04:25,724 Speaker 1: like a Lance Armstrong who decides that, you know, everyone's 65 00:04:25,764 --> 00:04:29,004 Speaker 1: doping in cycling, so I'm going to do it too, 66 00:04:29,044 --> 00:04:32,244 Speaker 1: and we're going to create this culture where everyone is 67 00:04:32,364 --> 00:04:37,604 Speaker 1: taking drugs that are explicitly forbidden to enhance their performance. Right, 68 00:04:37,764 --> 00:04:41,284 Speaker 1: So we've got it's a huge spectrum, right, And there's 69 00:04:41,364 --> 00:04:44,284 Speaker 1: a huge spectrum between the college student who decides to 70 00:04:44,284 --> 00:04:47,764 Speaker 1: take adderall even though they technically don't have ADHD, so 71 00:04:47,804 --> 00:04:49,924 Speaker 1: that they can finish a paper, which, by the way, Nate, 72 00:04:50,004 --> 00:04:52,564 Speaker 1: is probably not happening anymore because you have chat GBT 73 00:04:53,204 --> 00:04:55,724 Speaker 1: who's your aderol, who could just finish the paper for you, 74 00:04:56,084 --> 00:04:58,484 Speaker 1: so you don't even need to take those supplements that 75 00:04:58,604 --> 00:05:01,764 Speaker 1: was you know, long before, or the investment baggers taking 76 00:05:01,804 --> 00:05:03,924 Speaker 1: cocaine in the middle of the night to kind of 77 00:05:03,964 --> 00:05:06,404 Speaker 1: stay up and make sure that they can get their 78 00:05:07,284 --> 00:05:09,844 Speaker 1: their spreadsheets or whatever it is that they're doing done 79 00:05:09,884 --> 00:05:13,124 Speaker 1: by the morning. And then the wellness gurus who say, well, 80 00:05:13,724 --> 00:05:17,404 Speaker 1: even though medafinil is a drug that was developed for 81 00:05:17,804 --> 00:05:22,644 Speaker 1: narcolepsy and sometimes to treat ADHD and may not be 82 00:05:22,724 --> 00:05:24,924 Speaker 1: the thing that I should be taken to kind of 83 00:05:25,004 --> 00:05:27,964 Speaker 1: enhance my concentration, even though there's a little bit of 84 00:05:28,044 --> 00:05:30,644 Speaker 1: data on that. But I'm going to do it just 85 00:05:30,684 --> 00:05:33,844 Speaker 1: in case because I want to kind of maximize my 86 00:05:34,204 --> 00:05:37,484 Speaker 1: ability to be the full me. All of these things 87 00:05:37,484 --> 00:05:40,564 Speaker 1: are different, right, and I have different opinions on these, 88 00:05:41,364 --> 00:05:45,564 Speaker 1: on the different gradations along the way, and even ones 89 00:05:45,604 --> 00:05:49,524 Speaker 1: that seem very straightforward, such as, you know, we should 90 00:05:49,564 --> 00:05:54,044 Speaker 1: not be allowing any performance enhancing drugs in sports, When 91 00:05:54,084 --> 00:05:57,164 Speaker 1: you start digging down, it ends up that some of 92 00:05:57,204 --> 00:05:59,404 Speaker 1: them might be like a little bit murkier than you 93 00:05:59,444 --> 00:06:01,764 Speaker 1: would think, right. I would I would love to say 94 00:06:01,764 --> 00:06:03,524 Speaker 1: that I'm just you know, we shouldn't be doing any 95 00:06:03,564 --> 00:06:06,724 Speaker 1: of this, but you know, as are as listener Brandon 96 00:06:06,724 --> 00:06:10,284 Speaker 1: points out, caffeine is a great performance enhancing drug, right, 97 00:06:10,324 --> 00:06:14,364 Speaker 1: So it's not like everyone is living this existence where 98 00:06:14,404 --> 00:06:19,764 Speaker 1: we're not taking any substances to increase performance. You need 99 00:06:19,804 --> 00:06:24,404 Speaker 1: to kind of figure out what exactly are you talking about. 100 00:06:24,444 --> 00:06:26,284 Speaker 1: And I think that this is one of those episodes 101 00:06:26,324 --> 00:06:29,084 Speaker 1: where there are going to be a lot of shades 102 00:06:29,124 --> 00:06:31,924 Speaker 1: of gray. I think that it's one of these case 103 00:06:31,964 --> 00:06:36,124 Speaker 1: by case basis where you have to really understand what's 104 00:06:36,164 --> 00:06:39,164 Speaker 1: the intention here, what are the data here, what is 105 00:06:39,364 --> 00:06:42,524 Speaker 1: the responsibility here, and what are the rules here? 106 00:06:43,004 --> 00:06:46,924 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the poker world, do you have an interesting 107 00:06:46,964 --> 00:06:52,244 Speaker 2: cross section of a little bit of everything. Right, you 108 00:06:52,484 --> 00:06:57,404 Speaker 2: certainly have some stimulant use ranging for people who are 109 00:06:57,564 --> 00:06:59,884 Speaker 2: probably taking out of all the people who are taking 110 00:06:59,964 --> 00:07:02,764 Speaker 2: zims or vaping you. 111 00:07:02,964 --> 00:07:07,044 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, by the way, let me just interrupt you 112 00:07:07,084 --> 00:07:11,804 Speaker 1: immediately just to say, we said caffeine, but nicotine is 113 00:07:11,884 --> 00:07:15,564 Speaker 1: another huge performance enhancing drug that people take all the time, 114 00:07:15,804 --> 00:07:18,964 Speaker 1: and zin is gaining huge market shares. I seeeson at 115 00:07:18,964 --> 00:07:20,044 Speaker 1: the poker tables all the time. 116 00:07:20,084 --> 00:07:23,484 Speaker 2: Please continue, Yeah, and in part because like those are 117 00:07:25,004 --> 00:07:27,364 Speaker 2: as weird as smoking cigarettes, right, which is more disruptive, 118 00:07:27,724 --> 00:07:29,444 Speaker 2: you know, those are kind of more discreet ways to 119 00:07:29,484 --> 00:07:32,004 Speaker 2: do with that, you know. But yeah, people are taking 120 00:07:32,004 --> 00:07:38,964 Speaker 2: anterall people are. There's varying amounts of drinking. People are 121 00:07:38,964 --> 00:07:41,484 Speaker 2: different tolerances. I will often have a best of one 122 00:07:41,564 --> 00:07:44,444 Speaker 2: or two at dinner a poker tournament, right, But like everyone, 123 00:07:44,484 --> 00:07:46,324 Speaker 2: we have differently different things, you know what I mean. 124 00:07:47,284 --> 00:07:48,684 Speaker 2: And so you have to know kind of your own 125 00:07:48,684 --> 00:07:51,524 Speaker 2: I'm not claim aning of this is game theory optimal, right, 126 00:07:51,524 --> 00:07:52,924 Speaker 2: you have to kind of know your own physiology a 127 00:07:52,964 --> 00:07:55,204 Speaker 2: little bit, but not as much drinking as you might 128 00:07:55,244 --> 00:07:58,804 Speaker 2: have seen twenty years ago, you know, I've always surprised 129 00:07:58,844 --> 00:08:03,844 Speaker 2: that there are some players who get quite stoned on 130 00:08:04,404 --> 00:08:06,764 Speaker 2: dinner breaks and stuff like that, or any break, right. 131 00:08:08,244 --> 00:08:10,324 Speaker 2: I mean, we were talking about the well known player 132 00:08:10,444 --> 00:08:14,204 Speaker 2: Maria the other day who seemed to me quite stone 133 00:08:14,204 --> 00:08:16,364 Speaker 2: and not playing optimally, And you have some of those, 134 00:08:16,404 --> 00:08:18,204 Speaker 2: but like there are some people who are microdocing on 135 00:08:18,244 --> 00:08:21,004 Speaker 2: different things, and like again I don't know, right, it's 136 00:08:21,004 --> 00:08:24,844 Speaker 2: also partly a matter of habit, right, for whatever reason, 137 00:08:26,164 --> 00:08:29,084 Speaker 2: probably done more drugs than you in my life, Maria 138 00:08:29,284 --> 00:08:33,244 Speaker 2: forever reason. Like I've just never really tried to play 139 00:08:34,444 --> 00:08:37,804 Speaker 2: poker under the influence of THC, though I'm not familiar 140 00:08:37,844 --> 00:08:40,044 Speaker 2: with THC, whereas I have on alcohol, and so like 141 00:08:40,044 --> 00:08:41,644 Speaker 2: you're just kind of like part of what you're familiar 142 00:08:41,724 --> 00:08:43,724 Speaker 2: with I think about poker. It's also important, though, is 143 00:08:43,764 --> 00:08:50,284 Speaker 2: like these are really long sessions, particularly in tournaments, right, 144 00:08:50,884 --> 00:08:54,884 Speaker 2: So things that sustain energy and focus for a long time, 145 00:08:54,964 --> 00:08:58,084 Speaker 2: like you know, you don't typically see like necessarily like 146 00:08:58,124 --> 00:09:02,044 Speaker 2: a lot of like cocaine used to take an extreme 147 00:09:02,084 --> 00:09:04,724 Speaker 2: example of poke returnaments because like that is a drug 148 00:09:04,764 --> 00:09:07,884 Speaker 2: where you kind of burn brightly for very quickly and 149 00:09:07,924 --> 00:09:11,844 Speaker 2: then crash out right. You know that will work if 150 00:09:11,844 --> 00:09:15,804 Speaker 2: you're playing from noon to midnight in some tournament. I mean, 151 00:09:15,884 --> 00:09:17,684 Speaker 2: unless you're taking a lot of it, I guess right. 152 00:09:17,844 --> 00:09:20,604 Speaker 1: But adderall, which is kind of a controlled version of speed, 153 00:09:21,484 --> 00:09:25,644 Speaker 1: is something and riddle. These are things that are that 154 00:09:25,764 --> 00:09:30,764 Speaker 1: are actually incredibly common in the poker world, and they 155 00:09:30,844 --> 00:09:33,724 Speaker 1: are common not just in the poker world, but in 156 00:09:33,764 --> 00:09:38,884 Speaker 1: all sorts of professions that require concentration, right, that require 157 00:09:39,084 --> 00:09:42,604 Speaker 1: people to kind of pay attention for long periods of time. 158 00:09:42,964 --> 00:09:45,764 Speaker 1: And the funny thing is, so I've actually written about this, 159 00:09:46,044 --> 00:09:50,284 Speaker 1: and I have kind of dug a little bit deeper 160 00:09:50,284 --> 00:09:52,924 Speaker 1: into the data. With drugs like adderall, I think this 161 00:09:52,964 --> 00:09:56,084 Speaker 1: is true of a lot of performance enhancing drugs when 162 00:09:56,164 --> 00:10:01,444 Speaker 1: you are taking anything that is off label, right, which 163 00:10:01,524 --> 00:10:06,764 Speaker 1: means that it's not prescribed for this exact condition, especially 164 00:10:06,924 --> 00:10:12,164 Speaker 1: when it's something that is for a cognitive function and 165 00:10:12,564 --> 00:10:17,484 Speaker 1: meant to counteract something that is kind of a neurological 166 00:10:18,444 --> 00:10:24,204 Speaker 1: abnormality or something that is kind of not a neurotypical brain. 167 00:10:24,644 --> 00:10:27,484 Speaker 1: When you put it into a neurotypical brain that doesn't 168 00:10:27,484 --> 00:10:31,764 Speaker 1: have these issues, you might get some benefits, but also 169 00:10:31,764 --> 00:10:36,084 Speaker 1: some unintended side effects. So the funny thing I mean, 170 00:10:36,244 --> 00:10:39,844 Speaker 1: I think it's funny because I don't do adderall or 171 00:10:39,924 --> 00:10:42,684 Speaker 1: riddle an off label. The funny thing about it is 172 00:10:42,724 --> 00:10:46,604 Speaker 1: that there's actually a disconnect when you take these drugs, 173 00:10:46,644 --> 00:10:49,724 Speaker 1: quite often with what you think your work product is 174 00:10:49,764 --> 00:10:52,284 Speaker 1: and what it actually is, because it does put you 175 00:10:52,324 --> 00:10:56,564 Speaker 1: into this like laser focus where you think, oh, I'm 176 00:10:56,604 --> 00:10:59,644 Speaker 1: writing like a brilliant paper, or I'm creating this brilliant 177 00:10:59,684 --> 00:11:02,404 Speaker 1: work product, or if I'm playing pogram, you know, being 178 00:11:02,444 --> 00:11:05,684 Speaker 1: able to execute all these wonderful creative lines. But it 179 00:11:05,844 --> 00:11:12,124 Speaker 1: actually really dampens creativity and makes you create things that 180 00:11:12,484 --> 00:11:16,244 Speaker 1: to you might seem great, but that actually objectively you're 181 00:11:16,284 --> 00:11:20,244 Speaker 1: working a lot, but your work output is not necessarily 182 00:11:21,524 --> 00:11:24,604 Speaker 1: what you think it is. And so it's a very 183 00:11:24,604 --> 00:11:29,644 Speaker 1: funny disconnect between self perception and actual performance. And so 184 00:11:29,844 --> 00:11:32,724 Speaker 1: when it comes to cognitive enhancement, that is something that 185 00:11:32,764 --> 00:11:35,884 Speaker 1: you see now. Obviously when it's physical, usually there's no 186 00:11:35,964 --> 00:11:39,044 Speaker 1: disconnect between what you think you're doing and how you're 187 00:11:39,084 --> 00:11:41,884 Speaker 1: doing because you have an objective measure immediately, right, am 188 00:11:41,924 --> 00:11:44,564 Speaker 1: I running faster? Am I cycling faster? Am I able 189 00:11:44,604 --> 00:11:46,404 Speaker 1: to actually lift more weight? 190 00:11:46,604 --> 00:11:46,844 Speaker 2: Right? 191 00:11:47,604 --> 00:11:51,204 Speaker 1: When I use steroids? Whatever it is? But when it 192 00:11:51,244 --> 00:11:54,004 Speaker 1: comes to cognitive enhancement, you have these funny things. 193 00:11:54,604 --> 00:11:56,844 Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked to Nick Thompson, the author of The 194 00:11:56,884 --> 00:11:59,644 Speaker 2: Running Round. Nick is one of the best runners in 195 00:11:59,684 --> 00:12:02,124 Speaker 2: the world and age class the other week. Right, Well, 196 00:12:02,124 --> 00:12:05,044 Speaker 2: one of the things about running is that there's not 197 00:12:05,124 --> 00:12:08,044 Speaker 2: much variation in it, right, You're running of existence. Most 198 00:12:08,044 --> 00:12:11,684 Speaker 2: people who a runners are running a few routes. If 199 00:12:11,684 --> 00:12:13,964 Speaker 2: they run commonly. That can be a few things. It 200 00:12:14,004 --> 00:12:17,524 Speaker 2: can be traffic, right, you can other joggers and stuff 201 00:12:17,564 --> 00:12:20,084 Speaker 2: like that, right, or wind or weather right, But like 202 00:12:21,164 --> 00:12:24,724 Speaker 2: for the most part, it can be a fairly objective 203 00:12:24,844 --> 00:12:29,124 Speaker 2: benchmark about your kind of overall partiovascular et cetera health 204 00:12:29,604 --> 00:12:33,524 Speaker 2: that day, in your effort level. Whereas in poker it's 205 00:12:33,564 --> 00:12:37,844 Speaker 2: extremely noisy. You know, the best poker players might have 206 00:12:38,044 --> 00:12:41,124 Speaker 2: in the tough field and ROI of plus ten percent 207 00:12:41,284 --> 00:12:45,844 Speaker 2: and a mediocre player on his B game, not the 208 00:12:45,844 --> 00:12:48,484 Speaker 2: C game, not the F game, but like on this 209 00:12:48,604 --> 00:12:51,404 Speaker 2: B game, right, might be minus ten percent, right, plus 210 00:12:51,404 --> 00:12:52,764 Speaker 2: ten which is minus saying oh, of course, of one 211 00:12:52,804 --> 00:12:55,804 Speaker 2: poker tournament. You don't protect the dissample of like hundreds 212 00:12:55,844 --> 00:12:59,444 Speaker 2: of tournaments to distinguish those And yeah, I certainly have had. 213 00:12:59,844 --> 00:13:02,484 Speaker 2: It's kind of a common thing among writers too, to 214 00:13:02,684 --> 00:13:08,204 Speaker 2: use like things like adderall. I've certainly been around people 215 00:13:08,564 --> 00:13:13,484 Speaker 2: who seem to be constantly on adderall and they're talking 216 00:13:13,644 --> 00:13:16,044 Speaker 2: a mile a minute and they're kind of hyper right 217 00:13:16,124 --> 00:13:19,204 Speaker 2: and kind of babbling, And you know, that's not a 218 00:13:19,284 --> 00:13:21,564 Speaker 2: drug that leaves me with a great impression. But like again, 219 00:13:21,604 --> 00:13:24,404 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna my own habits right, good and bad. 220 00:13:24,444 --> 00:13:27,764 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna creaque anybody. My empirical experience is that 221 00:13:27,844 --> 00:13:31,364 Speaker 2: one's a bit more noticeable than than some of the others, 222 00:13:31,844 --> 00:13:34,324 Speaker 2: maybe among the drugs that people are kind of using 223 00:13:34,404 --> 00:13:36,804 Speaker 2: for cognitive entancement. 224 00:13:37,284 --> 00:13:42,004 Speaker 1: Yeah, so just full disclaimer, I've never used any cognitive 225 00:13:42,164 --> 00:13:46,564 Speaker 1: enhancing pills. And I say pills because I drink a 226 00:13:46,644 --> 00:13:51,244 Speaker 1: fuck ton of caffeine. Okay, yeah, so like and I've 227 00:13:51,284 --> 00:13:54,924 Speaker 1: actually never used nicotine, so I've never I'm I'm gonna 228 00:13:55,324 --> 00:13:57,604 Speaker 1: come across those kind of this goody two shoes, but 229 00:13:57,644 --> 00:14:00,884 Speaker 1: I do I drink, and you know, I'm not doing 230 00:14:00,884 --> 00:14:04,644 Speaker 1: this for like moral reasons or anything. It's just not 231 00:14:05,004 --> 00:14:06,564 Speaker 1: I don't think it's right for me. And also I 232 00:14:06,644 --> 00:14:08,684 Speaker 1: have a lot of allergies and can stand smoke. But 233 00:14:08,724 --> 00:14:12,044 Speaker 1: I've never used any nicotine products. I've never smoked cigarettes. 234 00:14:12,164 --> 00:14:15,764 Speaker 1: No nicotine. By the way, poker players also love nicotine pills, 235 00:14:15,884 --> 00:14:18,764 Speaker 1: nicotine patches, not just poker players. Like this is stuff 236 00:14:18,804 --> 00:14:22,444 Speaker 1: that people use. They get into the science and they 237 00:14:22,484 --> 00:14:25,124 Speaker 1: listen to the kind of gurus of how to enhance 238 00:14:25,164 --> 00:14:28,044 Speaker 1: your performance peak performance at any given time, and they 239 00:14:28,084 --> 00:14:31,884 Speaker 1: do stuff like that. So just total disclaimer, I've never 240 00:14:31,964 --> 00:14:35,164 Speaker 1: used any of those, but I do use caffeine. And 241 00:14:35,404 --> 00:14:38,844 Speaker 1: when I play poker, I am always drinking green tea, 242 00:14:38,884 --> 00:14:42,284 Speaker 1: and I specifically drink green tea because I've done the 243 00:14:42,324 --> 00:14:46,324 Speaker 1: research and I know that green tea has the best 244 00:14:46,924 --> 00:14:52,084 Speaker 1: kind of way of absorbing elthonine into your brain, which 245 00:14:52,124 --> 00:14:56,924 Speaker 1: helps you sustain your attention for longer periods of time. 246 00:14:57,284 --> 00:15:01,084 Speaker 1: Am I using a performance enhancing drug, Nate, you know 247 00:15:01,124 --> 00:15:03,244 Speaker 1: what I mean? Like I realized, I'm not trying to 248 00:15:03,364 --> 00:15:06,044 Speaker 1: practice semantics here. All I'm saying is that we do 249 00:15:06,164 --> 00:15:08,924 Speaker 1: make choices all the time that try to optimize how 250 00:15:08,964 --> 00:15:11,804 Speaker 1: we're doing today. By the way, no amount of green 251 00:15:11,844 --> 00:15:14,404 Speaker 1: tea is probably going to make me at absolute peak 252 00:15:14,444 --> 00:15:17,004 Speaker 1: performance because I didn't get that much sleep. And what 253 00:15:17,044 --> 00:15:20,004 Speaker 1: we know is the number one cognitive enhancing drug is sleep. 254 00:15:20,524 --> 00:15:24,764 Speaker 1: Like nothing else, nothing else comes even close. So getting 255 00:15:24,884 --> 00:15:28,084 Speaker 1: proper amounts of sleep is just like, you know, light 256 00:15:28,164 --> 00:15:31,804 Speaker 1: years ahead of anything else. And so when you do 257 00:15:31,884 --> 00:15:36,564 Speaker 1: something like that, well obviously it's not a performance enhancing drug, 258 00:15:36,604 --> 00:15:39,564 Speaker 1: but it might as well be. So you know, there 259 00:15:39,604 --> 00:15:44,484 Speaker 1: are so let's just I guess put a disclaimer and say, Okay, yes, 260 00:15:44,564 --> 00:15:48,724 Speaker 1: there's things that everyone does, like caffeine and it might 261 00:15:48,884 --> 00:15:52,884 Speaker 1: give you a little bit more cognitive power. And then 262 00:15:53,044 --> 00:15:57,884 Speaker 1: there are other things that people use that are more 263 00:15:59,084 --> 00:16:03,364 Speaker 1: out there, and we can argue that while nicotine is 264 00:16:03,364 --> 00:16:06,004 Speaker 1: closer to caffeine, or we can argue that it's not, 265 00:16:06,404 --> 00:16:11,244 Speaker 1: but modafino definitely kind of on the other on the other. 266 00:16:11,124 --> 00:16:11,684 Speaker 2: Side of that. 267 00:16:12,164 --> 00:16:14,604 Speaker 1: And do you have a prescription, right, is it something 268 00:16:14,644 --> 00:16:18,044 Speaker 1: that you are actually using correctly because you need to. 269 00:16:18,364 --> 00:16:20,084 Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, if you do have a 270 00:16:20,084 --> 00:16:22,404 Speaker 1: prescription for it because you need to, is that giving 271 00:16:22,444 --> 00:16:26,284 Speaker 1: you an unfair advantage? Is it giving you an unfair edge? 272 00:16:26,404 --> 00:16:29,084 Speaker 1: They're all of these, you know, when we start getting 273 00:16:29,124 --> 00:16:31,684 Speaker 1: into the ethics of it. Oh and by the way, 274 00:16:31,764 --> 00:16:35,204 Speaker 1: poker doesn't ban any sort of substances, So that's like 275 00:16:35,844 --> 00:16:37,204 Speaker 1: That's another thing here. 276 00:16:37,124 --> 00:16:42,564 Speaker 2: Right, there's a didn't sama, which is yes, there was, 277 00:16:42,924 --> 00:16:43,244 Speaker 2: there was. 278 00:16:44,044 --> 00:16:47,124 Speaker 1: It's like, come on, yeah, he proposed a drug free 279 00:16:47,284 --> 00:16:49,884 Speaker 1: poker tournament where you could not where you'd get tested, 280 00:16:49,924 --> 00:16:52,524 Speaker 1: and you weren't allowed to use anything. I don't know 281 00:16:52,564 --> 00:16:55,284 Speaker 1: if caffeine was included in that, because if it was, 282 00:16:55,364 --> 00:17:00,524 Speaker 1: then you know, sorry, Tom, I'm I'm totally out. But 283 00:17:00,524 --> 00:17:02,284 Speaker 1: but yeah, I do want to say that it's not 284 00:17:02,524 --> 00:17:05,444 Speaker 1: against the rules in poker to take whatever the fuck 285 00:17:05,484 --> 00:17:07,644 Speaker 1: you want to take, And to be perfectly honest, I 286 00:17:07,724 --> 00:17:09,284 Speaker 1: would say, like, if you want to take it, go 287 00:17:09,484 --> 00:17:12,324 Speaker 1: right ahead, because I actually don't think it gives you 288 00:17:12,404 --> 00:17:14,124 Speaker 1: that much of an edge, and I think it sometimes 289 00:17:14,204 --> 00:17:15,204 Speaker 1: might make you play worse. 290 00:17:18,044 --> 00:17:29,524 Speaker 3: And we'll be right back after this break. 291 00:17:37,204 --> 00:17:41,964 Speaker 2: We can put some bounds on this, right, Like, It's 292 00:17:42,004 --> 00:17:46,084 Speaker 2: not like in poker there are look, you could make 293 00:17:47,204 --> 00:17:51,484 Speaker 2: educated guesses about exactly which helpful and or unhelpful substances 294 00:17:51,524 --> 00:17:56,684 Speaker 2: different players are taking, you know, maybe apart from the 295 00:17:56,724 --> 00:17:59,884 Speaker 2: really stone players and the really adderally ones. Right, And 296 00:17:59,924 --> 00:18:04,684 Speaker 2: it's not necessarily so obvious, right, you know, it's not 297 00:18:04,724 --> 00:18:08,204 Speaker 2: like there's some class of players that are like thirty 298 00:18:08,204 --> 00:18:10,764 Speaker 2: percent better than the rest. You're like, oh, they're all 299 00:18:10,764 --> 00:18:13,284 Speaker 2: on the drug apps, right, And there are exotic things 300 00:18:13,324 --> 00:18:15,724 Speaker 2: that are very subtle. You know, some of the players 301 00:18:15,764 --> 00:18:19,964 Speaker 2: take beta blockers. I'm not an expert in any of 302 00:18:20,004 --> 00:18:21,644 Speaker 2: this stuff, but I think it has the effect of 303 00:18:21,684 --> 00:18:24,404 Speaker 2: like lowering your heart rate and things like that, which 304 00:18:24,444 --> 00:18:29,524 Speaker 2: can be helpful to a remain calmer maybe when you're 305 00:18:29,604 --> 00:18:32,604 Speaker 2: under high stress, and or to reduce the appearance of 306 00:18:32,604 --> 00:18:33,244 Speaker 2: physical tells. 307 00:18:33,284 --> 00:18:33,364 Speaker 1: Right. 308 00:18:33,404 --> 00:18:35,164 Speaker 2: I remember actually the main event of the World Series 309 00:18:35,204 --> 00:18:37,084 Speaker 2: right where there was a guy I put against a 310 00:18:37,164 --> 00:18:40,204 Speaker 2: day two or day three right saying, right across from him, 311 00:18:40,764 --> 00:18:42,404 Speaker 2: he just kind of thing where like his heart was 312 00:18:42,444 --> 00:18:45,724 Speaker 2: like literally kind of very visible, and it's whatever artery 313 00:18:46,004 --> 00:18:50,524 Speaker 2: carctorate or something artery, right, every player knows it corroded, corroded. 314 00:18:51,004 --> 00:18:56,204 Speaker 2: And it was the most visible instance of this I'd 315 00:18:56,244 --> 00:18:58,324 Speaker 2: ever seen. It's the main event. He had a fairly 316 00:18:58,324 --> 00:19:03,244 Speaker 2: big sack on day three whatever it was. And and furthermore, 317 00:19:03,484 --> 00:19:05,364 Speaker 2: he basically had like a running heart rate monitor for 318 00:19:05,404 --> 00:19:09,244 Speaker 2: this player at all times, right, Like furthermore, I quickly 319 00:19:09,484 --> 00:19:10,884 Speaker 2: do so there was a pattern that when he has 320 00:19:10,924 --> 00:19:13,364 Speaker 2: a good hand, some players actually more nerves than their bluffing, right, 321 00:19:13,604 --> 00:19:15,124 Speaker 2: this guy waiting in a big hand. Do you start 322 00:19:15,164 --> 00:19:18,204 Speaker 2: to see boom boom boom boom of this kind of 323 00:19:18,724 --> 00:19:21,404 Speaker 2: it was kind of funny, right, but like, yeah, but 324 00:19:21,444 --> 00:19:25,124 Speaker 2: the physical tell you know, if if you start having 325 00:19:25,164 --> 00:19:27,524 Speaker 2: a bunch of predictable involuntary takes, or if you can 326 00:19:27,564 --> 00:19:30,884 Speaker 2: suppress those ticks in some ways, you know, it's not 327 00:19:30,964 --> 00:19:33,564 Speaker 2: creating just like a pigd use. And poker is not 328 00:19:33,564 --> 00:19:36,284 Speaker 2: created as like some yeah moral panic wearers and the 329 00:19:36,284 --> 00:19:40,044 Speaker 2: other world I know sports then than it is of course, yeah, 330 00:19:40,084 --> 00:19:40,844 Speaker 2: And I think. 331 00:19:40,764 --> 00:19:43,004 Speaker 1: So let's uh, let's actually talk about that a little 332 00:19:43,004 --> 00:19:46,844 Speaker 1: bit because so I have very very different perspectives about 333 00:19:47,324 --> 00:19:49,724 Speaker 1: using all of these drugs, all of these techniques, whatever 334 00:19:49,884 --> 00:19:52,924 Speaker 1: whatever you want to use when it is allowed versus 335 00:19:52,964 --> 00:19:56,484 Speaker 1: when it's not allowed. So poker, you know, knock yourself out. 336 00:19:56,564 --> 00:19:59,124 Speaker 1: If you are an investment banker and you want to 337 00:19:59,164 --> 00:20:01,484 Speaker 1: add her all it up or cocaine it up or whatever, 338 00:20:01,524 --> 00:20:05,604 Speaker 1: it is awesome, like you do you right, and if 339 00:20:05,644 --> 00:20:09,644 Speaker 1: your superiors are happy with your work, awesome. My onion 340 00:20:09,764 --> 00:20:14,324 Speaker 1: changes completely when we have explicit rules that say, okay, 341 00:20:14,764 --> 00:20:19,004 Speaker 1: you can not take you know, these performance enhancing drugs 342 00:20:19,044 --> 00:20:22,804 Speaker 1: right when we're talking about cycling. The argument but everyone's 343 00:20:22,844 --> 00:20:25,244 Speaker 1: doing it to me holds no water, right, I don't 344 00:20:25,284 --> 00:20:29,644 Speaker 1: fucking care like that. That is, if it's a rule, 345 00:20:29,684 --> 00:20:32,644 Speaker 1: that it means that everyone is cheating. If everyone is cheating, 346 00:20:32,644 --> 00:20:34,724 Speaker 1: either you call out the cheating, you quit the sport, 347 00:20:34,764 --> 00:20:38,204 Speaker 1: you know, you do something else. And it's interesting because there, 348 00:20:39,284 --> 00:20:42,764 Speaker 1: you know, as I've been kind of researching cheating in games, 349 00:20:43,244 --> 00:20:47,644 Speaker 1: I talked to a baseball player who was roommates with 350 00:20:47,844 --> 00:20:54,684 Speaker 1: another player who was suspended for for using steroids and 351 00:20:56,084 --> 00:20:59,644 Speaker 1: coast I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say anything else, Nate. 352 00:20:59,684 --> 00:21:02,804 Speaker 1: You know these sports a little too well. And it 353 00:21:02,924 --> 00:21:05,644 Speaker 1: was one of these things where you know, this roommate said, 354 00:21:06,124 --> 00:21:10,084 Speaker 1: like I, you know, people were doing I just thought 355 00:21:10,084 --> 00:21:12,604 Speaker 1: it was wrong, so I didn't and like, I have 356 00:21:12,684 --> 00:21:15,404 Speaker 1: no regrets about it, even though kind if my roommate 357 00:21:15,484 --> 00:21:18,004 Speaker 1: ended up having like a much more storied career for 358 00:21:18,084 --> 00:21:21,204 Speaker 1: a time than I did, because like I, you know, 359 00:21:21,444 --> 00:21:25,924 Speaker 1: I said, I basically said no, and my career ended 360 00:21:26,284 --> 00:21:28,804 Speaker 1: like I, you know, eventually kind of had to retire. 361 00:21:28,964 --> 00:21:32,404 Speaker 1: And but it's not like you're forced to do it. 362 00:21:32,444 --> 00:21:36,564 Speaker 1: You make choices. So anyway, you can. I don't care if, like, 363 00:21:36,844 --> 00:21:39,084 Speaker 1: if the culture is that everyone is doing it. What 364 00:21:39,204 --> 00:21:41,164 Speaker 1: I care about it is it within the rules or 365 00:21:41,244 --> 00:21:44,124 Speaker 1: is it not within the rules. And if you it's 366 00:21:44,164 --> 00:21:47,204 Speaker 1: not within the rules and you're doing it, then you're cheating. 367 00:21:47,284 --> 00:21:49,844 Speaker 1: And if you're trying to figure out ways of doing 368 00:21:49,884 --> 00:21:52,724 Speaker 1: it without getting caught by using these new drugs and 369 00:21:52,764 --> 00:21:55,204 Speaker 1: aren't yet detectable on tests, then again you're cheating, and 370 00:21:55,244 --> 00:21:58,084 Speaker 1: you're cheating in an even more kind of insidious way. 371 00:21:58,164 --> 00:22:03,484 Speaker 1: That is ruining the kind of sportsmanship right the the 372 00:22:04,084 --> 00:22:09,564 Speaker 1: playing field for everyone else, and that is kind of 373 00:22:09,644 --> 00:22:14,084 Speaker 1: ruining the integrity of your sport. And I you know, 374 00:22:14,564 --> 00:22:18,604 Speaker 1: things like Nate, you know, the enhanced games that were 375 00:22:18,724 --> 00:22:23,884 Speaker 1: announced like that. I'm like, yeah, like, what what are 376 00:22:23,924 --> 00:22:27,524 Speaker 1: we even talking about? Like, I guess people, you know, 377 00:22:27,684 --> 00:22:29,924 Speaker 1: you want to see a lot of people on steroids 378 00:22:29,964 --> 00:22:32,364 Speaker 1: go like to me, that's not even a sport. I'm like, well, 379 00:22:32,884 --> 00:22:34,724 Speaker 1: what are we even doing here? And I think a 380 00:22:34,724 --> 00:22:38,444 Speaker 1: lot of athletes felt the same way. So on the 381 00:22:38,524 --> 00:22:40,204 Speaker 1: one hand, I said, there were going to be a 382 00:22:40,204 --> 00:22:45,164 Speaker 1: lot of shades of gray here and this seems black 383 00:22:45,204 --> 00:22:47,204 Speaker 1: and white, But I'm actually going to take a step 384 00:22:47,244 --> 00:22:49,084 Speaker 1: back and put it back into the shades of gray. 385 00:22:49,484 --> 00:22:54,764 Speaker 1: So one of my favorite sports stories that I think 386 00:22:54,764 --> 00:22:57,404 Speaker 1: I've mentioned on this podcast before, but I'm just going 387 00:22:57,444 --> 00:23:00,924 Speaker 1: to say it again was this champion of Finnish skier 388 00:23:01,124 --> 00:23:05,444 Speaker 1: whom I've written about in the past, Iro Manturanta. I 389 00:23:05,484 --> 00:23:08,964 Speaker 1: apologize if I'm mispronouncing that I don't speak Finnish, but 390 00:23:09,084 --> 00:23:14,324 Speaker 1: he one seven Olympic medals over four games, three gold medals, 391 00:23:14,404 --> 00:23:19,044 Speaker 1: two silver medals, two bronze medals, and at the time, 392 00:23:19,124 --> 00:23:22,364 Speaker 1: like no one had done anything comparable, right, Like that's 393 00:23:22,364 --> 00:23:25,684 Speaker 1: insane if you're thinking about seven metals over four games, like, 394 00:23:26,004 --> 00:23:30,644 Speaker 1: holy shit. And he was accused of doping, and he 395 00:23:30,764 --> 00:23:33,524 Speaker 1: was tested, and it seemed to confirm that he was 396 00:23:33,564 --> 00:23:39,084 Speaker 1: doping because the red blood cells in his blood there 397 00:23:39,084 --> 00:23:42,764 Speaker 1: were multiple deviations away from the average range, and so 398 00:23:42,924 --> 00:23:45,804 Speaker 1: he was accused of doping. But then it turned out 399 00:23:45,804 --> 00:23:48,484 Speaker 1: that he didn't dope. He was actually clean, and he 400 00:23:48,604 --> 00:23:53,204 Speaker 1: carried a genetic mutation in a receptor that controls the 401 00:23:53,244 --> 00:23:59,964 Speaker 1: production of red blood cells, and that genetic mutation ran 402 00:24:00,044 --> 00:24:04,324 Speaker 1: in his family, right, So it turns out that basically 403 00:24:05,004 --> 00:24:08,804 Speaker 1: his entire family were kind of these mutants that had 404 00:24:08,804 --> 00:24:13,124 Speaker 1: this red blood cell the plant that was just constantly, 405 00:24:13,604 --> 00:24:17,764 Speaker 1: you know, basically constantly doping their blood. By the way, 406 00:24:17,804 --> 00:24:19,844 Speaker 1: this is not if people are listening to this and 407 00:24:19,844 --> 00:24:22,764 Speaker 1: it's like, who can I do this? Please don't because 408 00:24:22,804 --> 00:24:27,004 Speaker 1: this mutation also causes polythemia, which is a disease of 409 00:24:27,084 --> 00:24:31,284 Speaker 1: red blood cells, and monty Ante did have it, but 410 00:24:31,444 --> 00:24:33,844 Speaker 1: he didn't have any of the negative symptoms. But anyway, 411 00:24:34,244 --> 00:24:38,404 Speaker 1: so you have this person who was absolutely cleared right 412 00:24:38,964 --> 00:24:43,284 Speaker 1: and he wasn't doping, but he just naturally had this 413 00:24:43,404 --> 00:24:46,084 Speaker 1: insane advantage. Now you can look at someone like this 414 00:24:46,204 --> 00:24:49,724 Speaker 1: and say, well, if he has this mutation and he's 415 00:24:49,804 --> 00:24:53,084 Speaker 1: basically naturally doping, shouldn't we allow everyone else to kind 416 00:24:53,084 --> 00:24:55,844 Speaker 1: of dope to the same level. And I don't think 417 00:24:55,844 --> 00:24:59,484 Speaker 1: that's true because then, you know, you can start making 418 00:24:59,484 --> 00:25:01,684 Speaker 1: that argument with all sorts of different things. But that 419 00:25:01,844 --> 00:25:04,844 Speaker 1: just goes to show that there are so many different 420 00:25:04,924 --> 00:25:08,524 Speaker 1: variations here, and there's so much about the human body 421 00:25:08,524 --> 00:25:11,204 Speaker 1: that we don't know, and it's so easy to start 422 00:25:11,244 --> 00:25:14,404 Speaker 1: making the you know, the fairness argument that I think 423 00:25:14,404 --> 00:25:17,564 Speaker 1: that that's it's an argument that we shouldn't be trying 424 00:25:17,604 --> 00:25:20,364 Speaker 1: to make because people are different and so all we 425 00:25:20,444 --> 00:25:23,404 Speaker 1: can do is to try to make rules that control 426 00:25:24,924 --> 00:25:28,884 Speaker 1: that control to the best of our abilities, what substances 427 00:25:28,884 --> 00:25:31,444 Speaker 1: you can use to enhance your performance versus how you 428 00:25:31,444 --> 00:25:37,524 Speaker 1: can enhance your performance through your own physical merits and metal. 429 00:25:37,764 --> 00:25:41,204 Speaker 1: Because you know, isn't that the purpose of watching sports 430 00:25:41,204 --> 00:25:44,204 Speaker 1: and kind of watching competitors, right, that we see what 431 00:25:44,284 --> 00:25:48,564 Speaker 1: the human body is capable of on its own. We'll 432 00:25:48,564 --> 00:25:49,484 Speaker 1: be back right after this. 433 00:26:04,044 --> 00:26:06,724 Speaker 2: Yeah, look to some degree, especially in like maybe Olympic 434 00:26:06,764 --> 00:26:10,564 Speaker 2: type sports, which are sometimes sometimes a little bit more 435 00:26:10,564 --> 00:26:13,004 Speaker 2: linear functions of particular type of ability in one or 436 00:26:13,004 --> 00:26:16,204 Speaker 2: two areas, right, I mean you are selecting for people 437 00:26:16,244 --> 00:26:24,004 Speaker 2: who are genetic, yeah, genetic super You know the other 438 00:26:24,044 --> 00:26:26,244 Speaker 2: thing this comes up, it's gonna mention it once, right, 439 00:26:26,364 --> 00:26:31,004 Speaker 2: is you'll periorectically get athletes who are intersect in some form. 440 00:26:31,084 --> 00:26:34,444 Speaker 2: It's not really the same thing as frans, right, it's 441 00:26:34,644 --> 00:26:35,604 Speaker 2: you know, how they're born. 442 00:26:35,884 --> 00:26:37,364 Speaker 1: They're born, yeah, chromosome. 443 00:26:38,524 --> 00:26:41,924 Speaker 2: But inherently I have to draw some lines because you know, 444 00:26:42,044 --> 00:26:45,684 Speaker 2: we're not gonna talk about the gender binary vertus spectrum here, 445 00:26:45,724 --> 00:26:47,564 Speaker 2: But if you're looking for outliers, you're going to find 446 00:26:47,564 --> 00:26:49,364 Speaker 2: people who outliers in lots of different ways and that 447 00:26:49,764 --> 00:26:52,564 Speaker 2: and that creates issues, but they look, Yeah, the game 448 00:26:52,604 --> 00:26:56,364 Speaker 2: theory part of this that we haven't invoked yet is 449 00:26:56,444 --> 00:26:58,284 Speaker 2: that you do have any prisoners still limon when other 450 00:26:58,284 --> 00:27:03,124 Speaker 2: people are are doping. Right, So, like in any workplace 451 00:27:03,324 --> 00:27:05,364 Speaker 2: kind of culture, I mean, the initial question comes from 452 00:27:05,364 --> 00:27:10,684 Speaker 2: like the army, right, the you know, what is tolerated. 453 00:27:11,724 --> 00:27:19,924 Speaker 4: Versus tacitly encouraged versus not so tacitly encouraged versus you know, 454 00:27:20,124 --> 00:27:22,084 Speaker 4: but you also get to a point where like maybe 455 00:27:22,084 --> 00:27:24,484 Speaker 4: you're just kind of falling behind in an extremely high 456 00:27:24,484 --> 00:27:27,284 Speaker 4: performance area if if everyone else is doing something. 457 00:27:27,124 --> 00:27:30,204 Speaker 2: You're not buried bonds. I guess the most famous slash 458 00:27:30,204 --> 00:27:34,964 Speaker 2: infamous steroid user in baseball history was kind of like 459 00:27:35,004 --> 00:27:39,284 Speaker 2: this fucking Mark maguire and Sammy Sosa guys, they're juicing, right. 460 00:27:39,324 --> 00:27:45,484 Speaker 2: I was better than them before steroids alleged, and I'm 461 00:27:45,484 --> 00:27:47,644 Speaker 2: gonna be better than these fucking guys afterwards. So I'm 462 00:27:47,644 --> 00:27:49,884 Speaker 2: gonna take steroids too. When he has like what are 463 00:27:50,004 --> 00:27:53,484 Speaker 2: still the best offensive seasons in baseball history and kind of, 464 00:27:54,244 --> 00:27:58,164 Speaker 2: you know, just this kind of huge nonlinear outlier season, 465 00:27:58,244 --> 00:28:00,804 Speaker 2: seventy three home runs in a year, you know whatever, 466 00:28:00,844 --> 00:28:02,924 Speaker 2: it was a six hundred on base percentage are very 467 00:28:03,044 --> 00:28:06,444 Speaker 2: very high. Right, But you a prison's love if you 468 00:28:06,484 --> 00:28:08,884 Speaker 2: don't have like you know, it's the same thing as 469 00:28:08,924 --> 00:28:14,564 Speaker 2: like cat GPT being used to cheat in college essays. Right, 470 00:28:14,644 --> 00:28:18,004 Speaker 2: if you don't have good enforcement, then like then you 471 00:28:18,084 --> 00:28:19,764 Speaker 2: get in the dilema where it's like all my classmates 472 00:28:19,764 --> 00:28:21,924 Speaker 2: are doing this shit, right, so like why do I 473 00:28:21,964 --> 00:28:23,484 Speaker 2: have to work five times as hard as them and 474 00:28:23,484 --> 00:28:26,284 Speaker 2: get like a worse grade? And look, I don't know 475 00:28:27,524 --> 00:28:31,964 Speaker 2: how effective these regimes actually are in different sports. You know, 476 00:28:31,964 --> 00:28:34,484 Speaker 2: if you told me that, hey, people are using things 477 00:28:34,524 --> 00:28:37,524 Speaker 2: that are hard to detect, that wouldn't surprise me, Right, 478 00:28:38,284 --> 00:28:41,484 Speaker 2: you know, I think sports have kind of figured it 479 00:28:41,484 --> 00:28:45,044 Speaker 2: out that, like to have a big moral outrage and 480 00:28:45,124 --> 00:28:48,084 Speaker 2: panic over this isn't necessarily good for business. Right. There 481 00:28:48,084 --> 00:28:49,804 Speaker 2: are still a couple baseball players that could suspend it 482 00:28:49,844 --> 00:28:53,444 Speaker 2: every year for different types of peds. Right, It's not 483 00:28:53,764 --> 00:28:57,244 Speaker 2: quite perceived as a pr thing that it was. And 484 00:28:57,364 --> 00:29:00,244 Speaker 2: like the in the you know, late nineteen nineties and 485 00:29:00,324 --> 00:29:02,884 Speaker 2: early two thousands, which is kind of considered the whole 486 00:29:02,884 --> 00:29:06,604 Speaker 2: steroid era, you know, baseball has this kind of record 487 00:29:06,684 --> 00:29:10,684 Speaker 2: book that's very sacred, right. People care a lot about 488 00:29:10,684 --> 00:29:12,564 Speaker 2: the home run record and the betting average record and 489 00:29:13,684 --> 00:29:17,324 Speaker 2: everything else, right whereas in football it's a bit less too. 490 00:29:17,364 --> 00:29:20,924 Speaker 2: People Football flavor a team sport. You know, football a 491 00:29:20,964 --> 00:29:23,044 Speaker 2: little bit more slaps on the wrist for different types 492 00:29:23,084 --> 00:29:25,684 Speaker 2: of pedus. You know, Look, you can even if you 493 00:29:25,684 --> 00:29:28,524 Speaker 2: want to get funky, you can even say, okay, are 494 00:29:28,524 --> 00:29:32,444 Speaker 2: you being a bad teammate by not using steroids? Right? 495 00:29:32,604 --> 00:29:34,924 Speaker 2: You know, well, yeah, I. 496 00:29:34,964 --> 00:29:37,884 Speaker 1: Mean I think that the only like the way out 497 00:29:37,924 --> 00:29:43,284 Speaker 1: of this prisoner's dilemma is through external enforcement and penalties, 498 00:29:43,604 --> 00:29:48,084 Speaker 1: right where the benefits in the moment of doping are 499 00:29:48,244 --> 00:29:51,644 Speaker 1: outweighed by the potential penalties. So you know what comes 500 00:29:51,644 --> 00:29:55,444 Speaker 1: to mind to me right now is Russia in the Olympics, 501 00:29:55,644 --> 00:30:00,484 Speaker 1: right where you had basically an entire delegation doping, including 502 00:30:00,764 --> 00:30:04,404 Speaker 1: including some athletes who didn't realize that they were doping 503 00:30:04,724 --> 00:30:07,884 Speaker 1: because the coaches just gave them supplements and like said, 504 00:30:07,924 --> 00:30:11,004 Speaker 1: this is the health regime, and we're giving these performance 505 00:30:11,044 --> 00:30:14,164 Speaker 1: enhancing drugs to everyone, or at least that's the story. 506 00:30:14,164 --> 00:30:16,284 Speaker 1: And I actually believe it in the sense that I 507 00:30:16,324 --> 00:30:18,124 Speaker 1: believe that there were athletes who had no idea that 508 00:30:18,164 --> 00:30:20,644 Speaker 1: they were doping, and then you know, you strip every 509 00:30:20,644 --> 00:30:22,564 Speaker 1: one of the medals, you disqualify them, and then the 510 00:30:22,564 --> 00:30:25,364 Speaker 1: team can't compete in the Olympics, and no one can 511 00:30:25,404 --> 00:30:29,724 Speaker 1: compete in the Olympics. That's a pretty big disincentive, right 512 00:30:30,244 --> 00:30:33,364 Speaker 1: That will tell people, Okay, you know what, maybe this 513 00:30:33,564 --> 00:30:38,204 Speaker 1: is not a good idea because the risks and the 514 00:30:38,244 --> 00:30:42,564 Speaker 1: penalties will have to pay far outweigh the benefit of winning, 515 00:30:42,604 --> 00:30:45,004 Speaker 1: you know, gold medal now, because we're going to lose 516 00:30:45,044 --> 00:30:47,044 Speaker 1: that gold medal anyway, and then we're not going to 517 00:30:47,084 --> 00:30:50,444 Speaker 1: be able to compete going forward. So if you had 518 00:30:50,924 --> 00:30:54,564 Speaker 1: standards like that across the board, and if you really 519 00:30:54,604 --> 00:30:57,964 Speaker 1: take the enforcement seriously, then I think that changes behavior 520 00:30:58,004 --> 00:31:01,004 Speaker 1: because that changes behavioral incentives, and that changes the culture 521 00:31:01,044 --> 00:31:03,644 Speaker 1: from everyone is doing it to okay, people are not 522 00:31:03,724 --> 00:31:05,844 Speaker 1: going to be doing it anymore. But you also have 523 00:31:05,884 --> 00:31:08,484 Speaker 1: to be smart, right, You also have to test correctly 524 00:31:08,564 --> 00:31:10,244 Speaker 1: and you have to stay on top of this shit, 525 00:31:10,484 --> 00:31:12,564 Speaker 1: right you can't. You have to have people who are 526 00:31:12,564 --> 00:31:16,404 Speaker 1: out in the field figuring out what are the latest drugs, like, 527 00:31:16,444 --> 00:31:19,244 Speaker 1: what is the cutting edge, what are people using? How 528 00:31:19,244 --> 00:31:23,124 Speaker 1: do we detect this so that you don't have situations 529 00:31:23,164 --> 00:31:25,964 Speaker 1: where cheaters are trying to kind of stay ahead of 530 00:31:25,964 --> 00:31:29,924 Speaker 1: the system, which also creates very perverse incentives. 531 00:31:30,044 --> 00:31:33,804 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, and that you're willing to like punish the 532 00:31:33,844 --> 00:31:38,044 Speaker 2: actual cheaters, you know, absolutely. Johnick Sinner, who is one 533 00:31:38,044 --> 00:31:41,364 Speaker 2: of the two best men'sness players in the world, has 534 00:31:41,364 --> 00:31:45,444 Speaker 2: been accused of doping taking case amounts of coster ball. 535 00:31:45,564 --> 00:31:50,404 Speaker 2: It looks like I'm not a steroid knowledgeable person, community 536 00:31:50,604 --> 00:31:54,444 Speaker 2: stairoid nolatile person. But you know, hey, if he's a 537 00:31:54,444 --> 00:31:56,444 Speaker 2: big draw, maybe each hearing the other cheek. I mean, 538 00:31:56,484 --> 00:31:59,164 Speaker 2: we've seen, you've seen the poker world as nothing great 539 00:31:59,164 --> 00:32:01,004 Speaker 2: about people who are big names get away with a 540 00:32:01,044 --> 00:32:01,444 Speaker 2: lot more. 541 00:32:01,524 --> 00:32:01,684 Speaker 1: Right. 542 00:32:01,804 --> 00:32:05,724 Speaker 2: Yeah, with that said, if you look at the whole 543 00:32:05,724 --> 00:32:08,324 Speaker 2: list of all Major League Baseball players who have been suspended, 544 00:32:08,324 --> 00:32:11,684 Speaker 2: which is kind of the longest, most consistent regime, there 545 00:32:11,764 --> 00:32:16,364 Speaker 2: definitely are some all stars, right. However, it has moved 546 00:32:16,644 --> 00:32:21,364 Speaker 2: more towards the more marginal players because, like, you know, 547 00:32:21,804 --> 00:32:26,564 Speaker 2: if you're ten percent better, I mean it's also an 548 00:32:26,564 --> 00:32:28,524 Speaker 2: open question kind of how much sexually helps, right, But 549 00:32:28,644 --> 00:32:31,364 Speaker 2: leaning that aside, if you get ten percent better and 550 00:32:31,404 --> 00:32:35,004 Speaker 2: you're already pretty good, I mean that definitely produces benefits, right, absolutely, 551 00:32:35,124 --> 00:32:38,244 Speaker 2: But you probably already have all the money you'll need 552 00:32:38,284 --> 00:32:40,324 Speaker 2: for life. I mean, baseball's a sport that has long careers. 553 00:32:40,324 --> 00:32:42,244 Speaker 2: If you are taking kind of like long term risks 554 00:32:42,684 --> 00:32:44,324 Speaker 2: with your health, right, I mean, you know, some of 555 00:32:44,324 --> 00:32:46,244 Speaker 2: these anacolic steroids are not about to be good for 556 00:32:46,284 --> 00:32:48,084 Speaker 2: your long term health, right, they may help in the 557 00:32:48,084 --> 00:32:50,284 Speaker 2: short run, right, Yeah, if you're on the margins of 558 00:32:50,324 --> 00:32:54,404 Speaker 2: the major leagues and you get in a major league roster, 559 00:32:54,524 --> 00:32:58,044 Speaker 2: where what's some minim cell I'm sure you know if 560 00:32:58,404 --> 00:33:00,764 Speaker 2: mid six figures now at least, right, you get that 561 00:33:00,804 --> 00:33:02,484 Speaker 2: for a couple of years, you get a major league tension, 562 00:33:03,004 --> 00:33:07,764 Speaker 2: you get your first post draft team contract, I will 563 00:33:07,844 --> 00:33:10,284 Speaker 2: use I'm gonna avoid more textual small terms here onence 564 00:33:10,324 --> 00:33:11,804 Speaker 2: being I know them, right, but like you know, if 565 00:33:11,804 --> 00:33:13,684 Speaker 2: you get like a real free agent contract. 566 00:33:13,324 --> 00:33:15,084 Speaker 1: By your audience, you mean you're a co host night 567 00:33:15,484 --> 00:33:16,364 Speaker 1: my co host. 568 00:33:16,524 --> 00:33:19,524 Speaker 2: Yeah, so some more marginal guys who are trying to 569 00:33:19,524 --> 00:33:22,404 Speaker 2: extend their careers, right, because ten percent better when there's 570 00:33:22,404 --> 00:33:26,884 Speaker 2: a whole threshold and anything all threshold of talent near 571 00:33:26,924 --> 00:33:29,604 Speaker 2: the break even line either just good enough to make 572 00:33:29,604 --> 00:33:31,084 Speaker 2: the major leagues you're just good enough to have a 573 00:33:31,084 --> 00:33:35,444 Speaker 2: regular starting job or just not good enough, right, And 574 00:33:35,484 --> 00:33:37,284 Speaker 2: most are the people where there's the most pressure, even 575 00:33:37,324 --> 00:33:40,684 Speaker 2: though it's the Vury Bonds and the Yonick Centers and 576 00:33:40,684 --> 00:33:43,844 Speaker 2: stuff the world that receive more public scrutiny. 577 00:33:44,484 --> 00:33:48,204 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think kind of to to sum up, 578 00:33:48,244 --> 00:33:52,004 Speaker 1: I think we both agree that if we want to 579 00:33:52,044 --> 00:33:55,684 Speaker 1: keep it clean, like first of all, like performance enhancing drugs, 580 00:33:56,044 --> 00:34:00,164 Speaker 1: yeah or nay, like in things where it's where people 581 00:34:00,164 --> 00:34:04,044 Speaker 1: don't care, like poker, you know, whatever you do you 582 00:34:04,524 --> 00:34:07,964 Speaker 1: once again, because we don't even know what benefits necessarily 583 00:34:08,444 --> 00:34:11,644 Speaker 1: these are coming from any of these things. In areas 584 00:34:11,924 --> 00:34:16,324 Speaker 1: where there are explicit rules against them, right like sports, 585 00:34:16,364 --> 00:34:19,804 Speaker 1: then absolutely not. And I don't think there should be exceptions. 586 00:34:19,844 --> 00:34:23,084 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, big big names need 587 00:34:23,164 --> 00:34:27,764 Speaker 1: to get just as much, need to be penalized just 588 00:34:27,804 --> 00:34:30,284 Speaker 1: as much as smaller names. To bring it back to poker, 589 00:34:30,684 --> 00:34:33,204 Speaker 1: this means that you know, things that are illegal, like 590 00:34:33,284 --> 00:34:36,844 Speaker 1: cheating of different sorts which are not cognitive drugs or 591 00:34:36,844 --> 00:34:40,204 Speaker 1: anything like that needs to be like very strictly punished 592 00:34:40,524 --> 00:34:42,884 Speaker 1: no matter who you are, even if you're kind of 593 00:34:42,884 --> 00:34:44,644 Speaker 1: the number one name in the game. I don't care. 594 00:34:45,164 --> 00:34:47,724 Speaker 1: You need to realize that there are going to be 595 00:34:48,324 --> 00:34:53,324 Speaker 1: very strict penalties against these sorts of behaviors. And that's 596 00:34:53,364 --> 00:34:56,564 Speaker 1: the way that you kind of emerge from the prisoner's 597 00:34:56,564 --> 00:34:59,204 Speaker 1: dilemma that you were describing, Nate. So we've got, you know, 598 00:34:59,244 --> 00:35:02,084 Speaker 1: we've got areas like poker where it's legal. You've got 599 00:35:02,124 --> 00:35:04,684 Speaker 1: areas like sports where it's not. Then you've got areas 600 00:35:04,764 --> 00:35:07,644 Speaker 1: like the army where presumably they're doing their research and 601 00:35:07,684 --> 00:35:11,884 Speaker 1: they want people to function as well as they possibly can. 602 00:35:11,924 --> 00:35:14,844 Speaker 1: And that's its own Yeah, that's its own beast, right. 603 00:35:15,244 --> 00:35:15,484 Speaker 2: Yeah. 604 00:35:15,524 --> 00:35:17,404 Speaker 1: Sure, if you think that this is going to create 605 00:35:17,444 --> 00:35:20,324 Speaker 1: better soldiers and the soldiers are okay with it, then 606 00:35:20,964 --> 00:35:25,484 Speaker 1: by all means, right, like we want the best functioning force. 607 00:35:25,524 --> 00:35:28,044 Speaker 1: And there your analogy of are you hurting the team 608 00:35:28,044 --> 00:35:28,804 Speaker 1: if you don't do it? 609 00:35:29,084 --> 00:35:29,324 Speaker 2: Well? 610 00:35:29,404 --> 00:35:32,284 Speaker 1: Are you hurting the team if you're in the army 611 00:35:32,324 --> 00:35:38,084 Speaker 1: where the other country has people using this and you aren't, Yeah, 612 00:35:38,124 --> 00:35:41,684 Speaker 1: you kind of are. And so so that's like that's 613 00:35:41,764 --> 00:35:44,924 Speaker 1: its own different can of worms. Right, that's a totally 614 00:35:44,964 --> 00:35:49,604 Speaker 1: different area. But I would say that, you know, please 615 00:35:49,724 --> 00:35:52,964 Speaker 1: do try to figure out whether you're mortgaging your health 616 00:35:53,004 --> 00:35:54,724 Speaker 1: in the long term, because I think a lot of 617 00:35:54,764 --> 00:35:57,684 Speaker 1: people don't realize that there is a long term cost 618 00:35:57,884 --> 00:36:00,084 Speaker 1: to a lot of these performance enhancing drugs. 619 00:36:00,524 --> 00:36:05,044 Speaker 2: Yeah. My general thing is assume that in competitive industries, 620 00:36:05,044 --> 00:36:08,324 Speaker 2: which basically everything is now in our capitalistic world. I 621 00:36:08,324 --> 00:36:13,084 Speaker 2: don't like capitalism, Maria, but like assume that people will 622 00:36:13,084 --> 00:36:16,284 Speaker 2: optimize for their incentives. Right, if you create rules that 623 00:36:16,324 --> 00:36:19,604 Speaker 2: are easily to work around or are poorly structured, and 624 00:36:19,644 --> 00:36:23,444 Speaker 2: there's a lot of money or fame or championships to 625 00:36:23,484 --> 00:36:27,964 Speaker 2: win on the line, assume that some substantial fraction of 626 00:36:27,964 --> 00:36:30,724 Speaker 2: your player of population in a sport or game, right, 627 00:36:31,284 --> 00:36:34,324 Speaker 2: will have no moral qualms about taking advantage of of 628 00:36:34,364 --> 00:36:36,324 Speaker 2: both words. Yeah, but that said, I'm going to have 629 00:36:36,484 --> 00:36:40,244 Speaker 2: a performance enhancing drug called lunch. 630 00:36:41,524 --> 00:36:46,444 Speaker 1: Likewise, night, let's both go enhance our performance by food. 631 00:36:49,844 --> 00:36:51,644 Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach 632 00:36:51,684 --> 00:36:56,084 Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM. 633 00:36:56,204 --> 00:36:59,644 Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova. 634 00:36:58,964 --> 00:37:01,724 Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a Cool 635 00:37:01,764 --> 00:37:05,724 Speaker 2: production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 636 00:37:05,724 --> 00:37:10,084 Speaker 2: by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya Gerwit Lydia, 637 00:37:10,164 --> 00:37:13,084 Speaker 2: Jean Kott, and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our 638 00:37:13,084 --> 00:37:16,964 Speaker 2: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixinging by Sarah Bruger. 639 00:37:17,644 --> 00:37:19,844 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate and review us 640 00:37:19,884 --> 00:37:22,564 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too, but once again, 641 00:37:22,684 --> 00:37:24,524 Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want those bad 642 00:37:24,524 --> 00:37:26,724 Speaker 1: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.