1
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,120
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,720
Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is.

3
00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 3: Robert Mayam and I am Joe McCormick, and we are

4
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,720
Speaker 3: back with our fourth episode in the series on dust.

5
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,680
Speaker 3: So we've covered a lot of ground already. If you

6
00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,960
Speaker 3: have not heard the earlier episodes, you should probably go

7
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,400
Speaker 3: back and check those out first, but for a brief review.

8
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,240
Speaker 3: In part one of the series, we talked about how

9
00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:38,440
Speaker 3: to define and classify dust according to particle size, and

10
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,440
Speaker 3: how easily it is borne aloft in the air, and

11
00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:46,320
Speaker 3: so forth. We also talked about our domestic companions, the wonderful, beautiful,

12
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,519
Speaker 3: horrible pyroglyphid dust mites. We also talked about some of

13
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,400
Speaker 3: the complicated interactions between atmospheric dust and climate and weather.

14
00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,200
Speaker 3: In Part two, we talked about dust bunnies both inside

15
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,279
Speaker 3: the home and potent in outer space, as well as

16
00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,640
Speaker 3: some historical attitudes about dust and how those attitudes relate

17
00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,560
Speaker 3: to things like interior design and horror literature. And then

18
00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,119
Speaker 3: in part three, we talked about the role of dust

19
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,040
Speaker 3: in urban Victorian London and in nineteenth century literature again

20
00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,480
Speaker 3: and also got into dust as an illustration of the

21
00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 3: philosophical puzzle known as the Sororiety's paradox or the paradox

22
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 3: of the heap. And now we're back today to talk

23
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,880
Speaker 3: more about dust. I think we're going to focus today

24
00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 3: primarily on dust, the role of dust in religion and mythology.

25
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 2: That's right. So at this point, I think we've cleanly

26
00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,880
Speaker 2: established the ubiquitous nature of dust. You know, it precedes us,

27
00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,160
Speaker 2: it follows us, and it steadily covers all the details

28
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 2: of our lives. So on one level, dust is mundane

29
00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,040
Speaker 2: and perhaps not all that worthy of careful consideration or

30
00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 2: dreaming or myth making. But as we've also established, dust

31
00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,000
Speaker 2: can also be quite beautiful. It can haunt us with it.

32
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,160
Speaker 2: It's minuscule scale, it's almost invisible accumulation, and it takes

33
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,840
Speaker 2: on additional meanings in the light then of both mythological

34
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,359
Speaker 2: and scientific explanation. So it's something that, yeah, it's everywhere,

35
00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,200
Speaker 2: it's every day, but it also works in such a

36
00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,959
Speaker 2: subtle way and can be quite beautiful that it does

37
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,960
Speaker 2: seem to attract this kind of dream making attention.

38
00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,280
Speaker 3: You know. One thing I brought up in the first

39
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,840
Speaker 3: episode of the series was about a mismatch in the

40
00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,440
Speaker 3: different ways we think about dust, because on one hand,

41
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,080
Speaker 3: dust as a symbol is most often used to symbolize

42
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 3: kind of nothingness or worthlessness. You know, dust just means

43
00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,480
Speaker 3: like it's it's sort of the opposite of meaningful, useful matter.

44
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,440
Speaker 3: It's just something that's everywhere and is worth nothing. At

45
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 3: the same time, I sort of like what you're talking about,

46
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 3: rob with dust being both mundane and all around us,

47
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 3: but also seemingly sort of magical. Sometimes. I think it's

48
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,840
Speaker 3: an interesting that dust has, even in its use as

49
00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 3: a symbol of meaninglessness or worthlessness, a real potency like

50
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,080
Speaker 3: it is, so it is considered so worthless that it

51
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 3: is really captivating image and it matters.

52
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And also we'll get into this a little

53
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,960
Speaker 2: bit too. There can also be I think, a disconnect

54
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,399
Speaker 2: between the way we think about dust and related substances

55
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 2: such as dirt and mud versus the way that people

56
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,120
Speaker 2: would have thought about it in the past, but more

57
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,640
Speaker 2: centrally in times and places where people are more connected

58
00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,760
Speaker 2: with the earth. So at any rate, we're going to

59
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,320
Speaker 2: get into some various examples here, but we do need

60
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,720
Speaker 2: to stress that we cannot possibly cover every invocation of

61
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,960
Speaker 2: dust and mythic, legendary, folkloric, and religious traditions here. So

62
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 2: we're going to try and cover some cantilagizing examples, but

63
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 2: will inevitably leave some things off, in which case, you know,

64
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,720
Speaker 2: that's an opportunity for folks to write into us and

65
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,840
Speaker 2: share other examples of dust from mythology, folklore, and so

66
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,800
Speaker 2: forth that we might find interesting and we can discuss

67
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,560
Speaker 2: on future listener mail episodes.

68
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 3: Exactly, Please send us your favorite dust myths that we

69
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,839
Speaker 3: do not cover. But I wanted to kick things off

70
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,040
Speaker 3: today by looking at the role of dust in Mesopotamian

71
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 3: myths because I just recalled off the top of my

72
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,920
Speaker 3: head a lot of striking imagery of dust in ancient

73
00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,200
Speaker 3: Mesopotamian literature and also references in some of the religious

74
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,840
Speaker 3: rituals that we've talked about, Like I know, we talked

75
00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 3: about some of these last year in one of our

76
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,880
Speaker 3: Halloween episodes. But anyway, so I was going to look

77
00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,520
Speaker 3: up some of the most interesting references to dust in

78
00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,680
Speaker 3: Mesopotamian literature, and so I ended up searching for references

79
00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:51,080
Speaker 3: to dust in the myths from Mesopotamia, Creation, the Flood, Gilgamesh,

80
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 3: and others from Oxford University Press, nineteen ninety eight, edited

81
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,159
Speaker 3: by Stephanie Dally, And the most interesting one that I

82
00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,640
Speaker 3: came across is one you might know, the sort of

83
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:07,040
Speaker 3: famous house of Dust passage in the Gilgamesh epic. This

84
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,200
Speaker 3: is in tablet seven of the Gilgamesh story and this

85
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,839
Speaker 3: imagery comes in when Gilgamesh's friend, the wild Man in

86
00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,279
Speaker 3: key Dou, is cursed and dying. Basically, he is being

87
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,360
Speaker 3: punished by the gods. The gods are getting revenged because

88
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,640
Speaker 3: the two of them, both Gilgamesh and in key Dou,

89
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,800
Speaker 3: for some reason, only in key Dou gets punished here.

90
00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 3: They both attacked the demon Humbaba in the Cedar forest,

91
00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,280
Speaker 3: and they attacked another god to They've been doing a

92
00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,360
Speaker 3: lot of damage. They're they're a wild pair. So in

93
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,480
Speaker 3: key Dou is cursed by the gods. He's on his

94
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:47,279
Speaker 3: deathbed here and he has a terrifying dream, a truly

95
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,599
Speaker 3: revolting and disturbing vision of the underworld, the land of

96
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,480
Speaker 3: the dead. And I'm not going to quote the whole

97
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,680
Speaker 3: thing here, I'm gonna skip around a bit and pull

98
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,520
Speaker 3: out some passages from his description of the dream. And

99
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,480
Speaker 3: again this is the translation in that Myths and Misopotamia

100
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 3: I described then in Kidu wept, for he was sick

101
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 3: at heart. He lay down alone. He spoke what was

102
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,240
Speaker 3: in his mind to his friend. Listen again, my friend,

103
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 3: I had a dream in the night. The sky called out,

104
00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,680
Speaker 3: the earth replied. I was standing between them. There was

105
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 3: a young man whose face was obscured. His face was

106
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 3: like that of an Anzu bird. He had the paws

107
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,320
Speaker 3: of a lion. He had the claws of an eagle.

108
00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,240
Speaker 3: He seized me by my locks, using great force against me,

109
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 3: like a wild bull. He trampled on me. He squeezed

110
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,520
Speaker 3: my whole body. I cried out, save me, my friend,

111
00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,680
Speaker 3: don't desert me. But you were afraid and did not

112
00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,719
Speaker 3: help me. He seized me, drove me down to the

113
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,560
Speaker 3: dark house dwelling of Rkala's god, to the house where

114
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 3: those who stay are deprived of light, where dust is

115
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 3: their food and clay their bread. They are clothed like

116
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 3: birds with feathers, and they no light, and they dwell

117
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,839
Speaker 3: in darkness. Over the door and the bolt dust has settled.

118
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 3: Oh wow, so some of this does depend on the

119
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,760
Speaker 3: English translation. Some of the you know the hauntingness like

120
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 3: you can read different translations of this passage that kind

121
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,440
Speaker 3: of hit in slightly different ways. And I will say

122
00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 3: that sometimes the word dust here is in some cases

123
00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,800
Speaker 3: translated as dirt, but most often I've seen it as dust,

124
00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 3: and it really makes sense as dust. When you think

125
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,400
Speaker 3: about the idea that, like, to this house of dust,

126
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 3: to this land of darkness over the door and the

127
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:39,360
Speaker 3: bolt the dust has settled, it's a really striking, powerful,

128
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,520
Speaker 3: creepy image that you know, it's like there's no coming

129
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,680
Speaker 3: and going anyway. And Kido goes on to describe how

130
00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,800
Speaker 3: great kings of the world have their crowns piled up

131
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 3: in heaps in the underworld, though I did wonder how

132
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,400
Speaker 3: many crowns makes a heap?

133
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,400
Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, yeah, I love this detail about is. Yeah,

134
00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,680
Speaker 2: like the steady accumulation of crowns in my much like

135
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 2: the steady accumulation of.

136
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,600
Speaker 3: Dust, And much like the dust. The crowns are now

137
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 3: worthless in the underworld because the kings cannot wear them

138
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,640
Speaker 3: and they are not honored. The kings in the underworld

139
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,680
Speaker 3: are made to be servants, cooking meats and baking desserts

140
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,880
Speaker 3: and pouring cool water for the gods, but they cannot

141
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,720
Speaker 3: share in these delights themselves. For the dead, dust is

142
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 3: their food and clay is their bread. So finally, in

143
00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,840
Speaker 3: this passage, in key Do does die from the god curse,

144
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,880
Speaker 3: and this vision of death is so awful that it

145
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 3: drives Gilgamesh to go on his epic quest to discover

146
00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,920
Speaker 3: the secret of immortality. And so he ends up, you know,

147
00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,440
Speaker 3: searching for like a plant at the bottom of the

148
00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,040
Speaker 3: ocean that he thinks can save him from death, because

149
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,360
Speaker 3: he cannot end up like in key Do in the

150
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,000
Speaker 3: house of dust. So it's literature like this that makes

151
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,240
Speaker 3: me think. In some cases, the imagery of dust is used,

152
00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,560
Speaker 3: of course, to signal something about worthlessness, like dust is

153
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,600
Speaker 3: not good as food, so it is not worthwhile as food.

154
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,520
Speaker 3: You do not want to be forced to eat it

155
00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,680
Speaker 3: because it does not serve the function food should serve.

156
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,920
Speaker 3: But there is also a deeper meaning here. It's like

157
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:19,040
Speaker 3: there's a worthlessness deeper than mere trash or unwanted physical substance.

158
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,560
Speaker 3: There is a cosmic horror to this dust that the

159
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,679
Speaker 3: eating of the dust it seems to me to symbolize

160
00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,079
Speaker 3: a fear so deep that it can't even be articulated.

161
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,640
Speaker 3: It's the fear of that, which is the opposite of vitality,

162
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,160
Speaker 3: the opposite of life, and the opposite of all meaning.

163
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it brings me back once again to that

164
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,800
Speaker 2: line from T. S. Eliot. I will show you fear

165
00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,280
Speaker 2: and a handful of dust.

166
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,520
Speaker 3: So it clearly can have something of this kind of significance.

167
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,520
Speaker 3: The house of dust is a horrible place that Gilgamesh

168
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,080
Speaker 3: does not want to go. You know, it's the end

169
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,160
Speaker 3: of everything good. But on the other hand, clearly dust

170
00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,520
Speaker 3: doesn't always have this kind of significance in even in

171
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:02,160
Speaker 3: people's magical and religious thinking.

172
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,480
Speaker 2: That's right, so I thought we might. We'll come back

173
00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,280
Speaker 2: to some more fearful examples of dust. But first off,

174
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 2: here's a pretty i think fun one, in a mostly

175
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,560
Speaker 2: positive one. This is the idea of the Sandman's dust.

176
00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 2: So a lot of you are familiar with the nursery

177
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,040
Speaker 2: spirit known as the sandman who visits you each night

178
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,160
Speaker 2: to sprinkle sand into your eyes to cause you to sleep.

179
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,800
Speaker 2: And if you're like me, you've sort of long half

180
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,079
Speaker 2: heard this tale and or seen it in old Disney cartoons.

181
00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 2: I think there's one where Pluto the dog is visited

182
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 2: by a canine sandman, and you get to see all

183
00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 2: this play out in animated form. But if you're like me,

184
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,520
Speaker 2: you probably didn't. Were rarely paused to consider how weird

185
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:46,839
Speaker 2: this is, right, because.

186
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,320
Speaker 3: Like it doesn't make any sense.

187
00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,680
Speaker 2: Sand in your eyes.

188
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,680
Speaker 3: Seems like it would make it hard to sleep.

189
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, like sand in your eyes is a bad thing.

190
00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,480
Speaker 2: But so I think for the first time in my life,

191
00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,600
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, well, what's what is So

192
00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,679
Speaker 2: one of the first places I went was a Brewer's

193
00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,040
Speaker 2: Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, which is always kind of

194
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,520
Speaker 2: a nice sort of first stop with some of these

195
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 2: antiquated English sayings. And the idea here, apparently is that

196
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,360
Speaker 2: one becomes sleepy, especially children. And what do you do?

197
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 2: You rub your eyes as if you have sand or

198
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 2: dust in them, And I think this is key too.

199
00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,200
Speaker 2: Sandman maybe sounds more abrasive dust man, And the idea

200
00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,160
Speaker 2: of dust in your eyes is ultimately, I think more

201
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,160
Speaker 2: where this is based. And indeed the sand man is

202
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,520
Speaker 2: also known as the dust man, and Brewers includes examples

203
00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,439
Speaker 2: of sayings that would have invoked the dust man. So

204
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,959
Speaker 2: you might have a situation where I suppose you might

205
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,200
Speaker 2: be becoming sleepy, or more likely there are children becoming sleepy,

206
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,560
Speaker 2: and you might say something like, oh, the dust man

207
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:56,360
Speaker 2: has arrived.

208
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,080
Speaker 3: That's so creepy. What child wants to hear that?

209
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,360
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know, I don't It doesn't strike me

210
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 2: as is too nefarious. Here. Carol Rose has an entry

211
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,840
Speaker 2: on the entity in her book Spirits, Fairies, Leprechauns and Goblins,

212
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,720
Speaker 2: which is an excellent encyclopedia of fairies and fair folks,

213
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,520
Speaker 2: sorts of creatures, and she describes the dust in question

214
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,719
Speaker 2: as magic dust and it ensures not only sleep, but

215
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,840
Speaker 2: ultimately pleasant dreams. She mentions that the dust man in

216
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,760
Speaker 2: Danish and Swedish lore is known as only luke oui,

217
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 2: which means, and I'm probably mispronouncing that, only close your eyes.

218
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,000
Speaker 2: And in this tradition he is a tiny elf or

219
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,680
Speaker 2: fairy in a silk jacket that changes color with the light.

220
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,080
Speaker 2: Which I like that detail because to me, it makes

221
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 2: me think of what we've been discussing about, you know,

222
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,360
Speaker 2: motes of dust being caught in a ray of light

223
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 2: and having this ethereal quality. And so what does he do?

224
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,199
Speaker 2: He comes up and he blows magic dust into a

225
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,440
Speaker 2: child's eyes and onto their neck. This makes your eyelids

226
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 2: heavy and makes your head heavy. You can't hold your

227
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,120
Speaker 2: head up straight anymore. So it's time to go to bed.

228
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,359
Speaker 2: And then once you're in bed, once you're safely a snooze,

229
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,959
Speaker 2: he'll come to your bed and open up a magical

230
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,880
Speaker 2: umbrella over you, and there will be all these wonderful

231
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 2: pictures on the underside of the umbrella that will fill

232
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,920
Speaker 2: your dreams with wonderful stories. Now, isn't that delightful? Now

233
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 2: this is not true for naughty kids, however, but it's

234
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,439
Speaker 2: not too bad. You know, naughty kids can get it,

235
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 2: can have a pretty hard time in these sorts of tales.

236
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,400
Speaker 2: But according to Rose, naughty kids just get a standard umbrella.

237
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 2: So it's not the umbrella we've met with beautiful stories

238
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,280
Speaker 2: on the underside of it. It's just an umbrella, So

239
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,720
Speaker 2: no special dreams for you. But also you're not like

240
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,559
Speaker 2: chased around by you know, some strange demons or anything.

241
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,160
Speaker 2: And of course there are other varieties of this sort

242
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 2: of spirit in European tradition, but they don't all use dust,

243
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,040
Speaker 2: and they don't certainly don't all use umbrellas.

244
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 3: I had no idea Sandman with this deep I did

245
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 3: not think there was associated.

246
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:21,440
Speaker 2: Lore yeah, it runs pretty deep. Now for the next

247
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 2: few examples are going to get more into this connection

248
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 2: between some sort of magical dust and the dust of

249
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 2: the dead, which does seem to be a common motif

250
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,960
Speaker 2: that you find in traditions all over the world. And

251
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 2: it makes sense, you know, it gets down to this basic,

252
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 2: you know, ashes to ashes sort of observation about the

253
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 2: nature of matter in our world. The first one is

254
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,120
Speaker 2: something that's generally referred to as goopher or goopher dust.

255
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's spelled g o O f e r and

256
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,440
Speaker 2: other times it's spelled g o O p h e R.

257
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,640
Speaker 2: And I was reading a about this in an article

258
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,960
Speaker 2: on the low Country Digital History Initiative website. This is

259
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 2: affiliated with South Carolina's College of Charleston, titled Spiritual Practices

260
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 2: in the low Country discussing African American religious practices in

261
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 2: the Antebellum and post Bellum periods. These are particular traditions

262
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,720
Speaker 2: that are sometimes referred to broadly as who do and

263
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,800
Speaker 2: the article here discusses conjuring magic of West and West

264
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 2: Central African origin that enslaved people's practiced outside of or

265
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,720
Speaker 2: alongside Christian religious traditions. It notes individuals given the title

266
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,960
Speaker 2: of goopher doctor. The term seemingly related to the Congo

267
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 2: word kufwa, meaning to die, And I was reading elsewhere

268
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,840
Speaker 2: in folk Belief and Custom in the Blues by Mimi

269
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,400
Speaker 2: Klarr published in Western Folklore back in nineteen sixty that

270
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,400
Speaker 2: describes this goopher dust as a powder to be burned

271
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,840
Speaker 2: in a kind of long disay since conjuring of the illness,

272
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 2: and mentions that the powder is generally associated with graves.

273
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 2: And by long distance, I mean, you know, it doesn't

274
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 2: necessarily need to be cross country, but just like the

275
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:16,160
Speaker 2: target is not maybe physically present at the conjuring. Now,

276
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 2: the next one I want to touch on is a

277
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 2: concept involving a kind of corpse dust in Navajo traditions.

278
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 2: So a while back I was researching a topic related

279
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 2: to rituals and folk beliefs of the Navajo people in

280
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,040
Speaker 2: various sources I reached out to pointed me in the

281
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 2: direction of a work by an anthropologist by the name

282
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,440
Speaker 2: of Clyde Klockhon who lived nineteen oh five through nineteen sixty,

283
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 2: particularly his book Navajo Witchcraft from nineteen forty four. The

284
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 2: version I have as a publication from nineteen eighty nine,

285
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,520
Speaker 2: and I think there were some editions made. I'm not

286
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 2: sure if those editions were made in the eighties or

287
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 2: if they had been made previously in the nineteen sixties. However,

288
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,080
Speaker 2: so Klokhoon's anthropology work was very well regarded. But I

289
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 2: do want to against stress that the timeframe of the

290
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 2: working question here. So he worked among the Navajo people

291
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:10,120
Speaker 2: during the nineteen thirties and the late nineteen twenties, that's

292
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,159
Speaker 2: when his field work took place. But you know, he

293
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,359
Speaker 2: was an outsider working within those communities, and that this

294
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 2: is not like modern anthropological work, but it's still fascinating.

295
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 2: And he uses Western terms such as witchcraft in discussing

296
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,160
Speaker 2: these magical concepts, though he himself wrote that this term

297
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,919
Speaker 2: was not completely accurate, as you know, it's more of

298
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 2: a dependence on a broadly comparable Western concept to understand

299
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,919
Speaker 2: or discuss what is occurring in Navajo culture, and he

300
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,360
Speaker 2: suggested that a more precise description would be quote Navajo

301
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,040
Speaker 2: idea and action patterns concerned with the influencing of events

302
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,440
Speaker 2: by supernatural techniques that are socially disapproved. So what we're

303
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,520
Speaker 2: talking about here, it's not something you would want to

304
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,000
Speaker 2: confuse with other examples of Navajo rituals and beliefs. This

305
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,719
Speaker 2: would be like a subset of those in which the

306
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 2: techniques were generally disapproved of, or I would say even

307
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:11,399
Speaker 2: broadly disapproved of.

308
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,919
Speaker 3: But also with that caveat, you would want to be

309
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 3: careful not to apply all of the connotations that you

310
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 3: might apply to witchcraft and say the you know, Renaissance

311
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 3: European context or something.

312
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. In general, the term witch and witchcraft can become

313
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,399
Speaker 2: complicated when you start like applying it to actual practices

314
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 2: instead of fantastic practices. You know, imagine fictional practices and

315
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,080
Speaker 2: practices that were dreamed up by men in the persecution

316
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:48,600
Speaker 2: of women and also of indigenous religions and so forth. Anyway,

317
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,199
Speaker 2: klok on here concerning witchcraft, he reports on beliefs and

318
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:57,080
Speaker 2: traditions concerning concerning adente. These would be men and women

319
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 2: that were thought to pursue a sort of morally descendant

320
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: path to magical power, the path of the Adante, the

321
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,919
Speaker 2: witchery way, as the author describes it here, is a

322
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 2: path of death, desecration, poison, and beast forms. It also

323
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 2: sometimes involves a special preparation of dust. He describes the

324
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 2: alleged use of a preparation often translated as a poison

325
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 2: ground from corpses and said to look like pollen. Quote.

326
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 2: It may be dropped into a hogan from the smoke hole,

327
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,479
Speaker 2: placed in the nose or mouth of a sleeping victim,

328
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 2: or blown from furrowed sticks into the face of someone

329
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,359
Speaker 2: in a large crowd. Now, depending on the telling of

330
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 2: the story, there may be immediate symptoms, such as the

331
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,200
Speaker 2: blackening of the tongue or lockjaw, but in other other

332
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,760
Speaker 2: tellings there's nothing so obvious. But generally the way it's

333
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 2: supposed to go is that the victim begins to waste

334
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 2: away and ultimately dies the witchery way. He writes pursuit

335
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,879
Speaker 2: for various reasons, inclu vengeance the pursuit of riches, and

336
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,719
Speaker 2: the riches would primarily be obtained via grave robbing or

337
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,120
Speaker 2: something he discusses as fee splitting, in which an audane

338
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 2: would partner with a healer and then split the healer's fee.

339
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 2: So basically something like an illness scam with a healer

340
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 2: where you're like, I'll cause the illness and you treat

341
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 2: the illness, and you just give me half of what

342
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 2: they pay you. To treat it, but other audente seemingly

343
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 2: pursued a more chaotic evil path, just doing harm for

344
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 2: the sake of doing harm. Now, I want to note

345
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 2: here that the clock on himself in the book and

346
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 2: made no claim that witchcraft and sorcery as cited in

347
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,160
Speaker 2: these examples were indeed actually practiced. You know, it's ultimately

348
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 2: a lot of mystery here. But rather what we can

349
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 2: focus on are that these were stories and traditions. These

350
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 2: were stories told, These were ideas that were discussed, you know,

351
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 2: concerning unexplained illness, superstition, suspicion of other individuals. And he

352
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,200
Speaker 2: writes a link than the book about the various reasons

353
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 2: for so called witchcraft traditions in a given culture, including

354
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: various social functions, the management of anxiety, and more. So,

355
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 2: you know, his treatment ultimately is not saying like, here's this,

356
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 2: here's this weird story. Look how weird it is. It's

357
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,400
Speaker 2: also not here's this thing that is said people definitely

358
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 2: did this. It's it's more complicated than that. But I

359
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: mainly wanted to focus on the idea that here is

360
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 2: another culture where we see some idea of a corpse

361
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: derived dust being used in magical rituals of one sort

362
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 2: or another that are socially disapproved of within the culture

363
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 2: in which these stories originate. Right in this case, in

364
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 2: this particular case with the adante, this would be someone

365
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 2: who is doing you know, bad, socially reprehensible magic, and

366
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,479
Speaker 2: therefore the idea that they're using some sort of a

367
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 2: corpse powder see seems based in that. But there are

368
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: other examples we find around the world where the corpse

369
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 2: does takes on a different hear And so, continuing this

370
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 2: theme of magical dust connected to the bodies of the dead,

371
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: let's turn to some European traditions that get into this.

372
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: I was looking at a paper titled Dynamic Dirt Medieval

373
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: Holy Dust ritual Erosion and Pilgrimage Eco Poetics. This is

374
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 2: by Susan Signy Morrison, published in special collection Waste, Disposability,

375
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: Decay and Depletion from twenty nineteen.

376
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 3: Oh boy, are we about to get into some crumbly saints.

377
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, so this is a really really good write up.

378
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed this. The author stresses first of all

379
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: that the dust and dirt are pretty key to religious pilgrimage,

380
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 2: in this case focusing on medieval European traditions. Pilgrimage, by

381
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: his very nature, just ends up altering geography. You have

382
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 2: a bunch of people, you know, trooping along towards some

383
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 2: holy site, you know, trampling the earth. What's going to happen.

384
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 2: They're going to stir up dust, They're gonna spread dust

385
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 2: to carry away mud, They're going to erode things. That's

386
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: just how it goes.

387
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And in fact, I don't know how far

388
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 3: back this tradition goes, but I mean you certainly can

389
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 3: see the idea of like earth from a holy site

390
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 3: being removed and jarred and taken abroad to I don't know,

391
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 3: it carries some of that holiness with it.

392
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And she gets into some of that, and

393
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: to call back to Dracula again, the idea that Dracula

394
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: in Bromstucker's novel must travel with dirt from his homeland.

395
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 2: You know, there is kind of like the inversion of

396
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 2: the holy dirt here, the holy dust.

397
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 3: He's got to take his unholy dust in a coffin

398
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,479
Speaker 3: with him.

399
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: So she gets into this idea that I found really compelling,

400
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 2: that I hadn't really thought about as much. And that's

401
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 2: that a people's attitude toward dust, dirt, and related substances

402
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 2: may be substantially different if the people in question live

403
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: in close confines with the natural world, you know, be

404
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 2: it you know, be it agriculture, or some other mode

405
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: of the natural world that makes them aware of how

406
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 2: dirt and manure are bound to the production of food.

407
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: So she points out that while manure might be seen

408
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 2: more as a pure waste product by modern and urban standards,

409
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 2: medieval Europeans would have had a more unquote redemptive view

410
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: of manure. So it's not an end product, but a transition,

411
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 2: a beginning even in some ways.

412
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, you got to feel differently about a substance if

413
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 3: you have a use for it.

414
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then when you know, aspects of the sacred

415
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 2: and the holy are applied, it's perhaps a little easier

416
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: for dirt and dust to take on the air of healing,

417
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: and it certainly does in some of these tails and

418
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 2: some of these traditions. Now. She also points out here

419
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 2: that one thing to keep in mind too, is that

420
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: within a culture, you might have different classifications for soil.

421
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,479
Speaker 2: So it's not like you just have dirt, you just

422
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: have soil. You may have different types of soil, and

423
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 2: perhaps that also opens up room for some soils to

424
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: have healing qualities and be rather different in character compared

425
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: to other soils. Anyway, she ultimately discusses two sorts of

426
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: dust and dirt that I think are note here for us.

427
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 2: The first is dirt that has come into contact with

428
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 2: the bodies, the blood, or other substances of holy individuals.

429
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,719
Speaker 2: So in the same way that the finger of a

430
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: deceased saint may be deemed holy, the dirt that soaked

431
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 2: up their blood also becomes holy. And she cites two

432
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 2: different descriptions here from the English monk the Venerable Bead,

433
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: who lives six seventy two or six seventy three through

434
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: seven thirty five. We've talked about Bead briefly on the

435
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: show before. I believe yes, so here's the first one.

436
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: And when he had reverently deposited these relics, Germanus took

437
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 2: away with him a portion of the earth from the

438
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 2: place where the blessed martyr's blood had been shed. The

439
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: martyr here is one alban By the way, the earth

440
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: was seen to have retained the marcher's blood, which had

441
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: reddened the shrine where his persecutor had grown pale with fear.

442
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: And this next one is really good too. Okay, at

443
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: the place where he and he is King Oswald here

444
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: was killed fighting for his country against the heathen. Sick

445
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 2: men and beasts are healed to this day. Many people

446
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 2: took away the very dust from the place where his

447
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: body fell and put it in water, from which sick

448
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: folk who drank it received great benefit. This practice became

449
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 2: so popular that, as the earth was gradually removed, a

450
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: pit was left in which a man could stand. Many

451
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 2: miracles are reported as having occurred at this spot or

452
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: by means of the earth taken from it.

453
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: I feel like this is the kind of belief that

454
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 3: you can't think too concretely about because if it's like

455
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: literally the blood had to touch the particle of dust

456
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 3: you're taking, by the time you got a pit a

457
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: man can stand in, that earth is not there anymore.

458
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 3: So like what's I don't know, but I guess there's

459
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 3: enough that like by magical association, just any earth from

460
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 3: the place is good enough.

461
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's kind of like just our magical associations with

462
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 2: geographical locations in general. You know, like if you go

463
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: to the place where, say, a famous person died, say,

464
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, the place where John Lennon died,

465
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: or something to that effect. You know, in many cases

466
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: these places, even assuming that it's one hundred percent geographically correct,

467
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: even if it's exactly where this person died or something happened,

468
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: you know, in many cases, the environment has been changed.

469
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: You know, there is now a plaque there, Maybe the

470
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: concrete has been changed since people were going there. You

471
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: have to do things to keep from eroding everything. So

472
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: it's you know, we but we lean into the magic

473
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 2: of it. I am here where this thing happened, and

474
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: therefore I am closer to sort of the the idea

475
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: of the event, the spirit of the event, and so forth. Yeah,

476
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 2: now I guess I shouldn't feel shocking. I imagine within

477
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 2: a faith that includes the doctrine of trends of substantiation,

478
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: you know, the idea that the matter of communion is

479
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: or becomes the flesh and blood of Christ and the body.

480
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: But also again it plays into this understanding of ashes

481
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: to ashes that we see in other traditions, and it

482
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: gets into this idea of the transitional nature of dirt

483
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: and soil. So it's not purely tied to theoretical matters,

484
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: but it also may be tied to sort of ecological realities,

485
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: you know, things that would have been sort of observable

486
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: about dirt and soil in the cycle of life in

487
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: the world around you. Now another area she gets into, though,

488
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: is that there's also just dust that gathers on certain

489
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: holy relics, and this dust in and of itself, in

490
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: some context is thought to be holy, so it's often

491
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 2: called tomb dust, and it will settle on reliquaries of

492
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: saints and also within actual tombs. And I found this

493
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: quite fascinating because it kind of it seems to line

494
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: up with some of these ideas we've talked about concerning

495
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: the natural accumulation of dust and a house or other

496
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: human space, you know, the times invisible aspect of this accumulation,

497
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: as well as the ethereal nature of glimpsing those motes

498
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: of dust floating in a ray of sunlight, which I

499
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: was thinking too. It was like, oh, this is is

500
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: kind of like the golden rain of Zeus, which is

501
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: sometimes described as golden dust. I think it's more oftentimes

502
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 2: described as as a rain or a shower of gold,

503
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: but sometimes as golden dust. This being the form that

504
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: Zeus takes to impregnate the mortal princess Dana.

505
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the mother of Perseus and the Perseus myth. Yeah,

506
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: so her his father is is immortal because Zeus comes.

507
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 3: It is off the version of the myth. I knew

508
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 3: it was said to be like a shower of gold

509
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 3: from the sky, I think, pouring into the window of

510
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 3: the room where she was imprisoned by her father.

511
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes it's described as dust. I couldn't.

512
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: I was looking around to see if there was a

513
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: source that really went all in on this and discussed

514
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: the you know, comparisons to dust in one's environment. But

515
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: I couldn't find anything offhand. It maybe out there, and

516
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: I just I didn't find it.

517
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: That makes sense. Yeah, dust floating in a ray of sunlight.

518
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: That seems like that's a shower of gold.

519
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: Sure, all right, let's see what other examples here do

520
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: I have to share. I did run run across a

521
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: few in Chinese traditions. So I was looking at the

522
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: Handbook of Chinese Mythology by Yang and An, and they

523
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: mentioned that there is this is only mentioned in passing,

524
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: but there is Slash was a popular tradition among the

525
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: weaker people of Central and East Asia that holds that

526
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: a goddess inhaled the dust and air of the universe

527
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: and then exhaled or spat out the Sun, the Moon,

528
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: the Earth, the stars, and like all humans. Elsewhere in

529
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: this book they mentioned various Han Chinese myths that allude

530
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: to the need to regularly wash the sun and moon,

531
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: as even the sun and moon acquired dust over time,

532
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: and this is also echoed and I think in some

533
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: other traditions in various other Chinese ethnic groups. Now, I

534
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: was reminded of something that this is actually something I

535
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: discussed on the podcast years and years ago, an episode

536
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: on poisons that I did with Christian But I went

537
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: back and looked at the source again. It was titled

538
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: The Mail and Poison Interactions on China's Southwest Frontier by

539
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 2: Norma Diamond. This was published in a nineteen eighty eight

540
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: edition of Ethnology, and this one gets it basically deals

541
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: with various ideas of poison in this border country. And

542
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily going to get into all of this again.

543
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: I think the episode was titled The Six Deadly Poisons,

544
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: where were talked about different poisons but she discusses this

545
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: idea of Goo folklore from the Tang dynasty. So this

546
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: one in six eighteens ce onward, and in particular, you

547
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 2: have this idea of the five poisonous creatures. So in

548
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: this idea goo, this special poison was kind of a

549
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: quasi magical poison created by a kind of by this

550
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: process that I think aligns with some of these kind

551
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: of like Western alchemical processes that we've talked about, you know,

552
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: where clearly what we're describing here is impossible, but it

553
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: has kind of like the trappings of chemical ritual and

554
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 2: so forth.

555
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: M Well, yeah, about some types of alchemy we've noticed

556
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 3: how it's interesting that it's a kind of not efficacious

557
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: magical belief that in some forms is grasping toward actual chemistry.

558
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, in this particular instance, the idea was, what

559
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: you do is you seal the five poisonous creatures to

560
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: gather inside a jar. So you throw in your snake,

561
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: your centipede, your toad, your scorpion, and your lizard, and

562
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: I'm assuming we're dealing with specific venomous or poisonous examples

563
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: of these creatures, and then you keep this jar in

564
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: a dark place for a year. During this time, the

565
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: creatures are going to eat each other until there's only

566
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: one survivor. They're going to become a tra duncan of

567
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: poisonous creatures trae duncan. Yeah, like the what is it?

568
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: Turducan?

569
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: Tur duncan tur duncan. Sorry, I've never had one, so

570
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: I owe me neither. It's not really the menu for

571
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: me anymore.

572
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: But why that's a it's a ridiculous food tru duncan?

573
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: Is it trud duncan? I think it's turnd dunk because it.

574
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 3: Ts turn in there. That's great, Yeah, turd duck in okay,

575
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 3: because it's a chicken, a duck, and a turkey.

576
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: Well, this is like that, except poisonous creatures, and so

577
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: they all eat each other. Then there's one left, but

578
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 2: it's in a dark jar for a year, so that

579
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: creature dies and then when you open it up, Uh,

580
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: I guess you have this like one little mummified creature

581
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 2: with like magically potent poison inside of it. So you

582
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 2: ground that up into a powder, and this is the

583
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 2: good poison that causes sickness and depth.

584
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: So it's like the most poisonous dust in the world.

585
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it basically it ties into various ideas, superstitions,

586
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: and I think accusations of indigenous peoples on the border

587
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: using poisons to make people sick, using the and using

588
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: them in a place and a time where the border

589
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: country would you know, have a lot of strife, There

590
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: would be conflict, There would be also a you know,

591
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 2: a collision of cultures, and uh, you know a certain

592
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: amount of xenophobia and accusations of witchcraft. But but that's

593
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: and then also as Diamond gets into in this article,

594
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: there also are theories about, well, if this was an

595
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: actually there was an actual poison, what could it have been?

596
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: Not something made by forcing poisonous creatures to eat each

597
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: other and then grounding up the victor, but rather something

598
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: maybe based in the use of arsenic or various other substances.

599
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: Would this be trying to infer what it might possibly

600
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: have been if it was real, from like literary sources.

601
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, looking at literary sources, and then looking at

602
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: what is known about, say, actual plants that were available

603
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 2: at that time, some of which we would have been

604
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: used in in like traditional medicine. And of course we

605
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 2: know that a lot of things used in traditional medicine

606
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 2: as than you know, any kind of medical practice, Like

607
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: the quantity is key, and something that could otherwise be

608
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: a poison can also be a treatment, and so forth.

609
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 3: As they said, yeah, the dose makes the poison.

610
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so ultimately though, the idea is you could

611
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: have some sort of a poisonous powder that then could

612
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: be like snuck into someone's food or their tint, or

613
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: forced on them one their asleep. That sort of thing

614
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: lining up, you know, with the idea of the Navajo

615
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: corpse powder that we discussed earlier, and I think more

616
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: broadly kind of getting into this realization that sometimes there

617
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: are particles in the air that might not be good

618
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: for us, you know, and without a germ theory, without

619
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 2: you know, real scientific knowledge to go on, you just

620
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: kind of had to sort of guess. Like it was

621
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: a you know, certainly had this idea. You see them

622
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: in various parts of the world of bad air, harmful air,

623
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 2: or I was reading a Navajo traditions, you have this

624
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: idea sometimes of of there being like a various types

625
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: of wind. I was looking at a book titled Holy

626
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 2: Wind and Navajo Philosophy by James kle McNelly, and like

627
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: sometimes a wind would have like a like a bad

628
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 2: smell to it that might be associated with dead animals

629
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 2: or said to emerge from the mouths of animals. And

630
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: so yeah, it's like, I think there's a certain amount

631
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 2: of trying to make sense of how the air or

632
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 2: things in the air can influence human health and or behavior.

633
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: And in some cases it might be connected to nefarious

634
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: individuals within your group or just outside of your group.

635
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but as we've talked about on the show before

636
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 3: that like, in a way, various kinds of beliefs about

637
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 3: bad wind or bad air or bad smells being related

638
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 3: to sickness are getting halfway there. Like they're picking up

639
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 3: on something like you can inhale things that make you sick.

640
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 3: People inhale droplets and airborne you know, germs and get sick.

641
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,959
Speaker 3: That there can be like if you fear the swamp air,

642
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 3: maybe it's not the swamp air that's gonna hurt you,

643
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 3: but there might be mosquitos in there that could give

644
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 3: you malaria or some other disease. And so even though

645
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 3: these beliefs didn't get the full way there, it does

646
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: seem like they may have been based on picking up

647
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 3: some kind of correlation.

648
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you you didn't catch cholera because of the

649
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: because the open latrin smell.

650
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 3: Bad as soon as you were drinking the water, right right, So.

651
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, A lot of times these things seem to

652
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 2: get half way to the truth and sometimes enough to

653
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: where like you're getting results by implementing them. All. Right,

654
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: On that note, I think we're going to go go

655
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: ahead and close up this episode of Stuff to Blow

656
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: Your Mind. Again. We couldn't possibly get into all of

657
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 2: the mythologies, legends, folkloric ideas and so forth concerning dust.

658
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: So if you have additional ones you want to bring up,

659
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 2: or if you have an added insight on anything we've

660
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: discussed here, certainly write in We'd love to discuss it

661
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: on a future episode of Listener Mail or episodes published

662
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: every Monday and Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed.

663
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: Our core episodes of science and Culture are on Tuesdays

664
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 2: and Thursdays, a short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays.

665
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: We set aside most serious concerns to just talk about

666
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

667
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

668
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

669
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

670
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello.

671
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 3: You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

672
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

673
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

674
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,959
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

675
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows

676
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: have

677
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 2: The po pot