1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Sukshat. I'll be going to COP twenty eight 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: in Dubai later this month. I'd love to find a 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: way to answer the many questions you may have of 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: the United Nations Climate Conference. Check out the show notes 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: for details on how to send us your questions. Thanks 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: for listening, Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati. Big businesses 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: have a huge role in reaching global climate goals. That's 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: why it's important to hear from the leaders of those 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: companies about how they are actually going to meet their 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: own targets. So for this bonus episode, I wanted to 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: share an interview I conducted last month with Jim Snaber 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: at the Bloomberg Tech Summit here in London. You probably 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: don't know Jim's name, but he has been called Europe's 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: top industrialist and he has led some of the biggest 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: companies in the world. Between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty two, 16 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: he was the chair of shipping giant Maersk, which is 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: responsible for around twenty percent of global shipping. Since twenty eighteen, 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: he has been the chair of German technology conglomerate Semens, 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 1: which has more than three hundred thousand employees. Working across health, transport, 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: energy and industrial manufacturing, and in late twenty twenty two 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: he was appointed the chair of Northwold, which has grown 22 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: from a plucky Swedish startup in twenty fifteen to Europe's 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: largest battery manufacturer today with more than four thousand employees 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: and fifty five billion dollars worth of orders. I asked 25 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: Jim about how industrial behemits like Maersk and Semens can 26 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: meet climate goals, whether zero missions shipping will ever become 27 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: a reality, and whether Northwold can ever outcompete the Chinese 28 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: battery industry. Welcome to this live recording of the Zero podcast. 29 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: Maybe we start wads your childhood because some of what 30 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: do you do today is informed by your time in Greenland. 31 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 2: Well, that is correct. When I was two years old, 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: my parents decided to move the family to Greenland, of 33 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: all places. My father was a helicopter pilot and we 34 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: lived there for seven years. So as a child, it 35 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: was a wonderful environment, a big playground full of snow. 36 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: I remember Greenland as this cold place with an incredible 37 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: amount of snow and not green at all. I think 38 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: it's the first example of greenwashing actually in history and 39 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: of course that does influence your view on things. I've 40 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: always had a love for that country because it's one 41 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: of the most beautiful countries. If you've never been, you 42 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 2: should go. But it's also one of the places where 43 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: you can actually get a feel for climate change, not 44 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: in theory, not in numbers, but in reality. 45 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: And you visited Greenland thirty years after you first lived there, 46 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: and then twenty years after that, that's twenty twenty twenty 47 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: two roughly. What were the changes that you saw and 48 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: how does that affect you as a business person leading 49 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: major companies in the world. 50 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 2: Well, it does have a big effect because it's a 51 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: place where you've grown, you know, a love form, and 52 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: you see the change. I was back in Greenland last 53 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: time in April last year, and I was uniquely invited 54 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: to this expedition to northeast Greenland where there is nothing 55 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: but nature, and it was in April, so it's pretty 56 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: tough nature. And I was there with a small group 57 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: of people who know how to survive in environments like that, 58 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: with a tenth and thirteen dogs, and so it's really 59 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: survival and you get very close to nature. You first 60 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: of all, you realize how nature doesn't need you, you 61 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: need nature to survive. And secondly, normally in April you 62 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: will have have minus twenty degrees in average during the day, 63 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: and we had two days where the temperature was plus 64 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: Now you can almost hear the ice melting. And it 65 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: got to me and I went back to study. I 66 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: know that you know sea levels would rise if the 67 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 2: inland eyes would melt, but once you study that, it 68 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 2: gets pretty scary. The ocean levels would rise six to 69 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: seven meters. So I think we're in an unsafe place here, 70 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 2: and it gives you that urgency and the way you 71 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: think about your leadership. And I have decided to now 72 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,559 Speaker 2: dedicate my leadership to accelerating the decarbonization of the world, 73 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: because first of all, we must otherwise we'll have a disaster. 74 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: But I actually begin to believe that it is becoming 75 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 2: maybe the biggest business opportunity ever and certainly in my lifetime. 76 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 2: So there's good reasons, to very good reasons to pursue 77 00:04:58,839 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: this opportunity. 78 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: And earlier this year we met in Davos, and you're 79 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: told me that from a semen's perspective, the energy transition 80 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: is going well, that your role as a technology provider 81 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: is going well, do you still hold that view ten 82 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: months on, Yeah, no doubts. Technology has always been, in 83 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: my mind the solution to issues. It is when we 84 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: innovate for a different pattern that we create new opportunities 85 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: and we create new, let's say, ways of looking at 86 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: the world. Semens today is not the semens that many 87 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: know from the household appliances. It is an industrial semens. 88 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: We basically do the infrastructures around cities, around manufacturing, and 89 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: around transportation, and. 90 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: So you could argue we are in all of the 91 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 2: infrastructures that consume energy, and we begin to see that 92 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: the portion of our portfolio that helps companies get to 93 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: zero carbon, that reduces their footprints and saves them money 94 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: because they use less energy, is by far the fastest 95 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 2: growing portion of our portfolio. We recently want a huge 96 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: train system in Egypt, where we are delivering almost two 97 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,119 Speaker 2: hundred trains, fifty four fast beeed trains, there's cargo trains, 98 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 2: there's regional trains. We're building two thousand kilometers of rail, 99 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: sixty stations. We will create employment of forty thousand people 100 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: in the country. But most importantly, when this transportation system 101 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: is up and running, not only will Egypt have the 102 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 2: most modern transportation system in the world potentially, but they 103 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: also will save seventy percent of the CO two emissions 104 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 2: coming from transportation of people and goods, and so it's 105 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 2: a good business case. It's a great business opportunity for Semens, 106 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 2: but it's also a path to a decarbonized future. And 107 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: I think when we marry the two, we get out 108 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 2: of this dilemma that you know, if we think of 109 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: it as a cost, it's kind of too expensive and 110 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: we don't want to do it too much. When it 111 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: becomes a business opportunity, you want to do as much 112 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: of it as possible because you actually is the way 113 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: you make your money. And hence the transition happens at 114 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: scale the scale we need. When we talk about opportunities 115 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: for Semens to provide solutions to companies, it's also an 116 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: opportunity for Semens to look at itself and make sure 117 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: its impact on the world is as small as possible. Now, 118 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: Semens has. 119 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: A target to reach net zero by twenty fifty and 120 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: you're going to talk about common accounting. So there are 121 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: three types of emissions. There's scope one to and three. 122 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: Those are emissions that either you're burning natural gas in 123 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: your buildings. Scope one, you're getting natural gas power from 124 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: somewhere else. Scope to. Those are typically less than in 125 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: your case, ten percent of your total emissions. Scope three, 126 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: which is what services you provide to your customers, the 127 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: products you provide to your customers that contribute ninety percent 128 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: of your emissions, and they actually went up last year 129 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: by two point five percent. Why is that happening when 130 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: you have a clear plan to get to net zero. 131 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think this is a very 132 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: very important discussion to have. I still remember a shareholder 133 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: meeting in twenty twenty. It was in February, just before COVID, 134 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: so we actually had six thousand people in the Olympia 135 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: Hall in Munich, and we were excited to go there. 136 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: We had great business results, and we also were proud 137 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: that we had reached a milestone in our CEO two emissions. 138 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: Siemens was one of the first industrial companies to commit 139 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: to net zero. We did that in fifteen and we 140 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: said we'll be net zero by thirty but there was 141 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: Cope one and two, and in twenty twenty we had 142 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: reached fifty two percent reduction, so we were like, I 143 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: was super proud to be in front of you know, 144 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 2: our shareholders and talk about fifty two percent. And yet 145 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: at that meeting we had a one hundred and twenty 146 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: a climate activist scolding us for having sold some software 147 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: that controls a train that we didn't build, but the 148 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: train was actually used to transport coal from a mine 149 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 2: in Australia, And for me that was the wake up 150 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 2: call that Scope one and two is just not enough. 151 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 2: So with Scope three, you take responsibility for how your 152 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: products are being used and what they're being used for, 153 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: which of course is much more complicated, and if you 154 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: grow your company, your emissions in Scope three could easily 155 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: go up. Now, what we calculated is the following interesting math. 156 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: When we deliver an electric train or a hydrogen train 157 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: like the deal in Egypt, one train in its lifetime, 158 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: which is zero carbon train will actually reduce two emissions 159 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: more than the annual combined seal two emissions of siemens. 160 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 2: So the more trains reproduce of that kind, the better 161 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 2: the world becomes. And therefore we are now shifting our 162 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: focus two Scope three and trying to take responsibility for 163 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: what our products do because there's a much bigger business 164 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: opportunity when you think of the problem that way than 165 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: if you just think about your own emissions. 166 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: And one way you could do that is to not 167 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: work with industries that are high polluting. But it's the 168 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: exact opposite. On the Semen's website, you advertise that you 169 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: would like to work with oil and gas companies, with 170 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: cement companies, with mining companies. 171 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: Why is that Yeah, so I'm not aware of that 172 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: sentence on the website, But if you look at our 173 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: portfolio today, we estimate that ninety percent of our portfolio 174 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 2: is being used to reduce carbon emissions. So we don't 175 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 2: have a preference to work with any of those industries. 176 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: In fact, we are even selling off businesses that are 177 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: too deeply involved with oil and gas. So it's simply 178 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: not the case. Now here's the dilemma. If we just 179 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: scold the companies that emit a lot and don't try 180 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: and help them reduce their emissions, we'll get nowhere. It 181 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,719 Speaker 2: doesn't help that we just let someone else do it. 182 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: We do need to engage with those companies and reduce 183 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: their emissions as well, and you can't go from one 184 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: hundred to zero in one second. You have to have 185 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: a responsible path to that future. I do believe we're 186 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: at the tipping point where we will stop burning fossil 187 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: fuels to get energy. 188 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: Well, the most recent international Energy Agency report, the World 189 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: Energy Outlook, just came out today and they agree. They 190 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: say all fossil fuels, coal, oil, and gas will peak 191 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: this decade and that after that they see what they 192 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: call a structural decline, which is that it's not just 193 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: a cyclical economy has gone down the drain. That's why 194 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: we're going to consume less fossil fuels, but there'll be 195 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: a decline coming through. 196 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 2: Now. 197 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: One place where you are helping that decline happen is 198 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: the other hat you wear with Northwold, which is a 199 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: battery company that is trying to build batteries for the 200 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: auto industry here in Europe, which is a big employer. 201 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: How does Siemens work with Northwold to try and make 202 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: that happen, because that's a size of emissions reduction that 203 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: can have a massive impact. 204 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 2: Yes, I think this is a very important a problem 205 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 2: to solve because as you increase the share of renewable 206 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: energy in an energy system, you get fluctuations in the 207 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: energy system because you produce energy when there's sun and wind, 208 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 2: and therefore you need intelligent infrastructure to transport energy. But 209 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: most important, you need scalable, affordable storage opportunities, and so 210 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: batteries will play a role. The first revolution is in 211 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: the automotive industry with the electric vehicles, and the issue 212 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 2: is that while an electric vehicle is carbon neutral, if 213 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: you don't make the battery carbon neutral, then it doesn't 214 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: help much. So Northfold was created with this vision, this 215 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: dream to do it right. Let's start a completely new 216 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: green battery company that not only produces the batteries with 217 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: green electricity because there's a lot of energy going into 218 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: building a battery, but takes the batteries back once they 219 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: are done in a vehicle, crushes them to we call 220 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: it black powder, and then extracts the lithium, the copper 221 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: nickel of that battery and use that to build the 222 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 2: next battery. We are at a stage now with our 223 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: technology at Authold where we can reuse up to ninety 224 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: seven percent of the raw matials in a battery, which 225 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: means we can get away from this idea that we 226 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: need to dig out the raw materials in the soil 227 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: and then use the battery for seven, eight or ten 228 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 2: years and then throw it all out and create a 229 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: very big disaster in terms of waste. We actually just 230 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: take them back, and it's a great illustration of the 231 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: difference between the fossil world and the renewable world, in 232 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: that in the fossil world, when we burn the fossil fuel, 233 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 2: it pollutes the air and disappears. In a green battery 234 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: like this, with this approach, the atoms stay at our disposal. 235 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: We can use them to build a battery, take them 236 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 2: back and build the next battery and the next barrier. 237 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: There is no deterioration of atoms, it's the same atoms. 238 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 2: In fact, according to our calculations, when we get to scale, 239 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: the raw materials that we get from a used battery 240 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: will be cheaper than the one we mine in a mind, 241 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: and then, as you can see, this becomes not only 242 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: good for the environment, it becomes a great business case. 243 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: Now, the challenge for Northwold, and the solution you've just 244 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: outlined is a necessary one, not just from an environmental perspective, 245 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: which is important if you're going to build green technologies, 246 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: you make sure they themselves are green. But the challenge 247 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: is really for regions like Europe, but also North America 248 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: is to have their own manufacturing of batteries in the 249 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: first place. Now, China has overtaken the world combined on batteries, 250 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: and not just in manufacturing them, but also controlling the 251 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: very materials, the processed metals that go into batteries. And 252 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: so if you get recycled material you can keep it 253 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: on shore and use them, but you will still have 254 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: to start somewhere where you're going to need virgin materials. 255 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: So what is it that Northwold is doing now to 256 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: try and manage what is a real severe supply domination 257 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: by China in an era where geopolitics is causing more 258 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: rupture to happen between Europe and China and America and China. 259 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've seen what happened with the solar panel industry 260 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: when China went in there and basically dumped the prices, 261 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: which made manufacturing elsewhere irrelevant. And therefore China today is 262 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: by far the biggest leader in this. Maybe there's a 263 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: comeback in the horizon, I don't know, because of the 264 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: generations of technology. But let's see, we should not let 265 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: that happen to the battery. The battery will be a 266 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 2: very important ingredient in the energy system as well as 267 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: in the transportation system, so we must have the capacity 268 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: in Europe in North America to do that. What we're 269 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: basically doing at Norswald is we are sourcing the raw metis. 270 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: Of course in the ramp up phase you do need more, 271 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 2: but we ask our technology to recycle the batteries is 272 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: not dependent on the Norswald battery itself. As long as 273 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: it's a lithium ion battery, we can take the batteries back, 274 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: crush them to powder and extract the atoms and build 275 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: the next battery. And we expect that already by twenty thirty. 276 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,359 Speaker 2: And don't forget this company is only six years old. 277 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: By twenty thirty, half of our ramachills will come from 278 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: our own recycled batteries. And I think this actually, with 279 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 2: the increased geopolitical tensions, it's going to be strategically important 280 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: for each region to be self sufficient with the critical 281 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 2: ra machills that are necessary to create a sustainable infrastructure 282 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 2: of the future. 283 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: And one way where we are seeing at least a 284 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: movement from governments to try and overcome what is a 285 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: China challenge on matteries is the Inflation Reduction Act in 286 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: the US, there's the European Green Deal, very different kinds 287 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: of policies that are being set out to enable manufacturing 288 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: all of these green technologies to happen on shore. Inflation 289 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: Reduction Act is very much driven at giving you lots 290 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: and lots of subsidies to try and make that happen. 291 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: Europe not quite so much as a European company that 292 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: now has announced a Canada plant and has global ambitions, 293 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: how are you using the policy changes across the Atlantic? 294 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 2: So I actually see the RA as a positive, and 295 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: it might sound, you know, strange for European leader to 296 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: think that way. For me, it's not necessarily a barrier, 297 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 2: It's an opportunity. The IRA is not limited to American companies. 298 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: Any company can apply, and it's actually an accelerator of 299 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 2: the transition to green technologies. And I welcome any accelerator 300 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: we can have. Coming back to my experience on Greenland, 301 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: we exponential curves here. We cannot do linear, you know, 302 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 2: and maybe we'll do a little bit tomorrow. We need 303 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 2: exponential curves. We need to be courageous in our leadership 304 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 2: to dream big about what we could do and then 305 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 2: get on with it. And the IRA is an a 306 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,239 Speaker 2: catalyst for that Europe should do something similar. It's in 307 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 2: fact trying. It's a little bit more complicated, but we will. 308 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: We have the first factory in northern Sweden that was 309 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 2: without those subsidies, were now having committed a plant in 310 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 2: Canada with IRA similar conditions, and we will also be 311 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 2: looking for an opportunity in Europe and with that create 312 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: the necessary capacities for green batteries in Europe and in 313 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 2: the US. So why is this important? I often say 314 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: that in a joke, the Stone Age didn't end because 315 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: we ran out of stone. And when you have new 316 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: technologies that are better and more sustainable and maybe even 317 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: cheaper eventually, you just need the incentives to be put 318 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 2: in place to accelerate that future or disincentives. If I 319 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 2: was a policy maker, I would also put a price 320 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: on SEW two and with that innovation goes in avoiding 321 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 2: it rather than today where we kind of accept it 322 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 2: and hope to limit it in good faith. 323 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: Going back to the start where you were the chairman 324 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: of Meersk until twenty twenty two, giant shipping company, which 325 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: under your championship, was able to create a clear roadmap 326 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: for what is an industry that has done very little 327 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: on reducing emissions. What have you achieved when you set 328 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: those goals out and how are they playing out now? 329 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 2: I think that story of zero carbon shipping is a 330 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: great example of the courageous leadership that I believe business 331 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 2: leaders need to have. I still remember the board meeting 332 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: in eighteen when management said, you know, why don't we 333 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 2: commit to zero carbon shipping. You know, Mask alone, which 334 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 2: is twenty percent of shipping, consumes ten million tons of 335 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 2: bunk oil. It's still the least polluting way of transporting goods, 336 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: but it's a lot of CO two and you know, 337 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: the board would say, so, how we're going to do that, 338 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: and management said, we don't know. And then the board 339 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: would say what's the business case? And the management say, 340 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 2: we don't know. We don't even know the technology. And 341 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: yet in twenty eighteen the company committed to zero carbon 342 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 2: shipping by twenty to fifty. Now, twenty fifty is a 343 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: long way out in the future. But to do that 344 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: you needed the first vessel sailing in twenty thirty, and 345 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: it felt very, very challenging that first vessel sales now 346 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 2: seven years ahead of that originally impossible plant. We have 347 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 2: ordered more than twenty eight vessels now in total. And 348 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 2: interestingly enough, in twenty eighteen, nobody thought sero carbon shipping 349 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 2: would be possible. In twenty three we now have the 350 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: first vessel sailing and the industry have now ordered one 351 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty eight methanol vessels. Methanol is a green 352 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: fuel is produced by green electricity. You basically take it 353 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: through electrolyzer. You get hydrogen. You add Z two to hydrogen, 354 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: you get methanol, or you add nitrogen to hydrogen and 355 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: you get ammonia. And these are fuels that will have 356 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: zero carbon impacts on this world. Vessels with a new 357 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: engine can sail on that and with this we can 358 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 2: solve zero carbon shipping. And my conclusion as a leader, 359 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: if you can do zero carbon in shipping, you can 360 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 2: do zero carbon in any industry. So it's just for 361 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: us to have the courage to lead that way. 362 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: So in these three companies, in these three companies that 363 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: you've led, have you seen when you take this step 364 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: which is bold, ambitious, risky, but then eventually pays off 365 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: and people see it pay off being copied by others. 366 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: Are you seeing that leadership spread out? 367 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: It's beginning, and it's interesting to see that. It's almost 368 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: like for two hundred years, industrialization has taught us to specialize, 369 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: but you can't redo an entire value chain for zero 370 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: carbon shipping if everyone is doing their piece. It's almost 371 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 2: like asking a symphony orchestra to play a new tune, 372 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: where the trumpets start with their new tune and the 373 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 2: others play the old tune at the same time. It 374 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: doesn't sound very well. I think that's the time when 375 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: in the world right now it doesn't sound that well. 376 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: So you need someone to orchestrate the reinvention. Mask orchestrated 377 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 2: the reinvention for shipping, and it's working. Siemens is trying 378 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 2: to do it in manufacturing in urban areas and in transportation. 379 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 2: Noswald is doing it in the battery space, and they're 380 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: taking a end to end view of the industry and 381 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 2: inviting everyone to play. I think that's the approach we need, 382 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 2: and when that happens, you de risk the project and 383 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 2: you get exponential scale. 384 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: Thank you, Jim, thank you, Thank you for listening to Zero. 385 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to 386 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: rate or review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 387 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: Share this episode with a friend or with someone who 388 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: loves shipping containers. You can get in touch at zero 389 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: port at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd 390 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: and senior producer is Christine driscoll Our. Theme music is 391 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Kira bindram I am Akshatrati. 392 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: Back next week.