Speaker 1: Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
Speaker 1: Facebook watch show in audio, produced by Westbrook Audio and
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. All right, and five four three, Hello
Speaker 1: R T T family, This is a special edition of
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk. And like many of you willow gamming.
Speaker 1: Myself of we watched Surviving R. Kelly on Lifetime and
Speaker 1: I called my producer and I said, we have to
Speaker 1: do a Red Table Talk about this right away. It's
Speaker 1: been hard for us to think about anything else. And
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen the docuseries, please take a look
Speaker 1: at this trailer. There's a difference between R. Kill and
Speaker 1: Robert Our kids, this faun, laughing, loving guy. But Robert
Speaker 1: is the devil. Is the devil is? R Kelly is
Speaker 1: at the top of the charts, but he may be
Speaker 1: in for a fall. He was arrested today on twenty
Speaker 1: one counts of child pornography. Kelly is accused of videotaping
Speaker 1: himself having sex with an underage girl, taking advantage of
Speaker 1: miners will not be tolerated. Jurors found him not guilty
Speaker 1: on all charges. With r Kelly's acquittal in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight, the women he allegedly abused continued to be ignored,
Speaker 1: but in lifetime surviving r Kelly, dozens of women came
Speaker 1: forward to tell stories of horrific sexual and emotional abuse.
Speaker 1: And this time millions of people are listening. I can't
Speaker 1: take another day. I can't do this anymore. One of
Speaker 1: r Kelly's hidden relationships was with our beloved Aliyah, an
Speaker 1: R and B singer, who he met when she was
Speaker 1: just twelve he was twenty four, a secretly married when
Speaker 1: she was only fifteen. Documents were forged to say she
Speaker 1: was eighteen. Reaction to the show has been explosive, many
Speaker 1: supporting the women and many viciously attacking them. I've never
Speaker 1: introduced her to him, That never introduced oh man. So
Speaker 1: one of the survivors, Lisa Van Allen, is gonna join
Speaker 1: us in a minute. I thought it was really important
Speaker 1: to watch it as mother and daughter, and then I
Speaker 1: was calling you, like, damn, have you you know? But
Speaker 1: I have to tell you. I felt a lot of things.
Speaker 1: I had a lot of feelings about it, one being
Speaker 1: I was like, man, how complicit we all have been?
Speaker 1: That really broke my heart, Like to really think about
Speaker 1: we we ignored it. I think that's been very heartbreaking
Speaker 1: for me, just how harsh the reactions have been, and
Speaker 1: specifically I've seen black women being very harsh towards the survivors.
Speaker 1: I don't know how we can expect to point fingers
Speaker 1: at other communities that might come in and violate us.
Speaker 1: We go out in March and we do all these things,
Speaker 1: but then we're not willing to look at ourselves and
Speaker 1: we're not willing to protect our own. We have to
Speaker 1: start examining the self hatred. Let's just talk about children
Speaker 1: who have been raped and molested, okay, and how the
Speaker 1: reaction has been, you know, things like they were just
Speaker 1: hot ass little girls, they didn't have no business, they
Speaker 1: just gold diggers. Those kinds of reactions shut people down,
Speaker 1: people who are in your home, right, you feel me.
Speaker 1: So I look at this as like a lot of
Speaker 1: times the abuses coming from family member, somebody close to
Speaker 1: the family or close family friends. Let me tell you,
Speaker 1: out of the people that I know, I've never heard
Speaker 1: once that it was a stranger. Remember he was himself
Speaker 1: a victim of abuse. And let me tell you something.
Speaker 1: And so if you don't protect your children and give
Speaker 1: them the freedom to talk, then this is what you create.
Speaker 1: So a lot of people are talking about we got
Speaker 1: to protect our girls, but we have to protect our
Speaker 1: sons as well. It's it's we have to protect our children.
Speaker 1: But I think that psychological manipulation that the women went
Speaker 1: through is really really hard for people to accomplishend. When
Speaker 1: I first heard about some of the women that were
Speaker 1: held captive, I just felt like, well, they're adults and
Speaker 1: you know there they should just leave, just leave em prison.
Speaker 1: But it's trying to really understand um, that psychological manipulation
Speaker 1: that goes on. For you and I game, if we
Speaker 1: think about it like this, you and I both have
Speaker 1: been in some relationships that we we shouldn't have been in, right,
Speaker 1: but we kept going back. So put put a hundred
Speaker 1: on that. Right. If you really think about it that way,
Speaker 1: you can get it. Not that I can get it,
Speaker 1: but just the degree of nothing that we went through
Speaker 1: even compared. So I'll tell you one of the honey
Speaker 1: traps for me, the you ain't cycle, where it's the
Speaker 1: you have somebody that breaks you down and then comes
Speaker 1: back to you and they're like I can't live without you.
Speaker 1: I can't believe you know that my everything, And then
Speaker 1: the endorphins in my mind and those highs and lows,
Speaker 1: and even just being addicted to that cycle. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: been there. I've been addicted to that cycle of knowing
Speaker 1: that this person is not treating me well. But then
Speaker 1: you get so low and then he comes in with
Speaker 1: his sweetness and you're like, oh, I never, We'll go
Speaker 1: for you. Well, maybe it's just I just never. May
Speaker 1: I just felt like from me, I was just being stupid.
Speaker 1: And the idea of having having a you know, a
Speaker 1: superstar point you out where most of us come from
Speaker 1: backgrounds where we feel neglected, we feel like we haven't
Speaker 1: been loved, and other self worth comes from that attention
Speaker 1: and then just the cycle of terror. And I have
Speaker 1: to say that I feel some kind of way about
Speaker 1: all these people that were around him that were just
Speaker 1: complicit and actually assisting men. Yeah, but you know, back
Speaker 1: in the day, let me tell you something, the black
Speaker 1: community was not built like that. You know, like you could,
Speaker 1: like if somebody was acting up in the neighborhood, you
Speaker 1: could count on Miss Betty down the street. She's gonna
Speaker 1: tell your mama the guys, They protected their neighborhood, They
Speaker 1: protected the girls growing up in the neighborhood. I really
Speaker 1: felt like it was important that Willow and I watched
Speaker 1: together because I felt like it was a teachable moments.
Speaker 1: Exactly what was it about it that was important for
Speaker 1: you and I to watch it together. What made me
Speaker 1: start crying was I had listened to Aaliyah and had
Speaker 1: I had known about r Kelly and listened to his
Speaker 1: music when I was super young, and it was it's
Speaker 1: so strange because I had an inkling that he was
Speaker 1: slightly sussed, but I never like, it just hit me
Speaker 1: so hard when I was watching it, like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like I was listening to this when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: like and then seeing him in the back of a
Speaker 1: jing nothing but a number album cover I had, it
Speaker 1: was like my, like something from my childhood was just debased,
Speaker 1: like like why is he just in the back of
Speaker 1: the album cover just lurking. That's weird, like and we're
Speaker 1: just like all no ane, but enough, like it's slipped
Speaker 1: under my radar. You and will did that bungee jump
Speaker 1: and we put I believe I can fly, yeah, And
Speaker 1: that just goes to show you didn't. But see see
Speaker 1: how things will fly. But I didn't like was it
Speaker 1: on the line? We we it was on you know, Instagram, Instagram,
Speaker 1: and but see how it you'll forget. But that's how
Speaker 1: we are all complicit because guess what, how can you forget? Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: right right? How can you forget and be so unaware
Speaker 1: you can't forget? Yeah, you know that's why we should
Speaker 1: have all been screaming from the rack, what's going on
Speaker 1: with the Celia thing? Exactly? Black community, what's going on?
Speaker 1: But here's the other conflict. We have such a conflicted
Speaker 1: relationship to the law, to the media, to feeling as
Speaker 1: though authority is attacking our men, which they and they
Speaker 1: still do. You know what was deep that jor on
Speaker 1: Lifetime on the on the juror, that was like I
Speaker 1: didn't like how they were dressed. I didn't. I just
Speaker 1: didn't like them. Yeah, I just didn't believe them, the woes.
Speaker 1: I know, it sums ridiculous the way they dressed, the
Speaker 1: way they act. I didn't like them. I voted again,
Speaker 1: I disregard at all what they said. I don't know.
Speaker 1: If I asked you what you liked, ye look at
Speaker 1: the evidence exactly all right, we have a very special
Speaker 1: guest today, Lisa Van Allen. Lisa met r Kelly at
Speaker 1: a music video shoot in Atlanta at the tender age
Speaker 1: of seventeen. I heard about Rob's reputation about him dating Aliyah,
Speaker 1: but I didn't assume that he liked younger girls. I
Speaker 1: just thought at that moment, I just thought he liked me.
Speaker 1: I knew he was at least thirty one, so I
Speaker 1: thought when I said seventeen that he'd be like, you know,
Speaker 1: like that was gonna be the deal breaker. But um,
Speaker 1: it wasn't. Pretty early on, he kind of introduced you
Speaker 1: to everything that he was into. The first time Robert
Speaker 1: had me do sexual acts with him and another female,
Speaker 1: he actually told me it was going to be his
Speaker 1: first time and he wanted to do it with me.
Speaker 1: Robert would film our sex acts sometimes he would never
Speaker 1: ask me if it was okay to be filmed, but
Speaker 1: he never hit the camera or anything like that. Once
Speaker 1: we did the threesome, it became more frequent. Then he
Speaker 1: started introducing me to other young women. Most of the
Speaker 1: threesomes were with a fourteen year old girl who Lisa
Speaker 1: thought was sixteen. One of the tapes became key evidence
Speaker 1: in Roberts two thousand and eight trial. Lisa testified against him,
Speaker 1: but he was acquitted. Still, she was determined that her
Speaker 1: story it would be heard. In Surviving r Kelly finally
Speaker 1: has people listening. There she is. He nice to meet you,
Speaker 1: so nice. We're so happy to have you here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you really are happy to be here and welcome. Come on, yeah,
Speaker 1: come on and sit down. How are you feeling today?
Speaker 1: You look beautiful series. How are you like? It's been
Speaker 1: so explosive, you know, in great ways and then not
Speaker 1: so great ways. I feel I feel blessed, like I
Speaker 1: feel like we didn't expect it to be this powerful,
Speaker 1: this impactful, like because you know, I came out in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight and nobody heard me. Do you
Speaker 1: feel like a relief, like a weight off of your shoulders? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: It's awesome to be yes, And I'm so happy that
Speaker 1: you guys could be brave enough to do it this way.
Speaker 1: And then lifetime is brave enough and that, you know,
Speaker 1: because you guys deserve it, and I and just so
Speaker 1: start thinking, I'm sorry, you can get it sooner. I'm
Speaker 1: not good. I'm not gonna cry, I said, Oh I said,
Speaker 1: I said, I love their show. Red Table Talk is
Speaker 1: so real and raw. And I've been before this, even
Speaker 1: the show even aired or anything. I've been saying, I
Speaker 1: want to talk to Jada. I know she'll understand. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to talk to Yeah. So it's just a
Speaker 1: blessing to be here and be able to talk to
Speaker 1: you guys, and I mean the world. The reaction has
Speaker 1: been so different this time around, you know what I mean. So,
Speaker 1: I mean I feel I feel blessed, and I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm a vessel, you know what I mean, to
Speaker 1: speak out for other young girls, because I mean, we've
Speaker 1: always been told, you know, you don't talk about that.
Speaker 1: You don't tell our business, you know, like, don't tell
Speaker 1: our business. You know, Like even my mom had a
Speaker 1: hard time dealing with this, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: because you know, because we have to really deal with ourselves.
Speaker 1: You know, her reaction on how she felt about her role,
Speaker 1: you know, my role. You know, everybody has their own
Speaker 1: things to deal with. I had to do it for
Speaker 1: me for other young girls, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like someone has to have that conversation that nobody wants
Speaker 1: to have, Like you can't worry about how you look,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, We got to put it
Speaker 1: on the line, put it out there. That's what I
Speaker 1: felt like, I did you have there was me before
Speaker 1: me too, because in two thousand and eight, there weren't
Speaker 1: any movements. You know, nobody else was talking about it.
Speaker 1: So and I came out, you know, hoping that I
Speaker 1: could help the victims and the good girl on the tape,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, because I knew her family
Speaker 1: wasn't going to speak, so I felt like somebody has
Speaker 1: to stand up, like somebody. I mean, they threatened my life.
Speaker 1: You know, there were was a lot I was dealing with.
Speaker 1: I was pregnant, but you know, you can't let that
Speaker 1: stuff stopping. And people need to remember that, Lisa, you
Speaker 1: wore a child on that tape, and I think people
Speaker 1: got that twisted. Those were two minors exactly when he
Speaker 1: first told me he had never had a threesome, and
Speaker 1: I felt like I needed to do that for him
Speaker 1: because we were together and I was living with him,
Speaker 1: and and I did it, and then he wanted another
Speaker 1: one and another one. Then that's when it was like, uh,
Speaker 1: like I may have been tricked here. When I started
Speaker 1: noticing that he was a liar and a manipulator. Was
Speaker 1: when I found out the girl was younger, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: why wait, why would he do that? He know I
Speaker 1: wouldn't admit then things like that, or when I started
Speaker 1: really questioning him because the threesomes, even though I didn't
Speaker 1: want him and I didn't like him, because he wanted him,
Speaker 1: I would back then, I would have done him, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And I hate to say that.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying with a young girl because I would
Speaker 1: not have, but I would have cried and did you
Speaker 1: know back then, just because he wanted to do them.
Speaker 1: And that's sad too. I have a thing now that
Speaker 1: I say to young girls or girls in general, love
Speaker 1: yourself first, because that was the problem. I was putting
Speaker 1: his feelings before my I didn't care that it bothered me.
Speaker 1: I didn't care that I cried and I was upset
Speaker 1: and that I had to share someone I loved with
Speaker 1: other women. I wanted him to be happy, so I
Speaker 1: would I would say that, I tell my daughter that
Speaker 1: love yourself first. Yeah, And you know, we all, we
Speaker 1: all go through that in different levels. He's a master manipulator.
Speaker 1: He says what he needs to say to get what
Speaker 1: he needs done. Yeah, yeah, he knew my whole background.
Speaker 1: He knew that I was in foster care. He knew
Speaker 1: that I was adopted with a single month my my
Speaker 1: adoptor mothers. Pause right there. I didn't know that you
Speaker 1: were in foster care until six. Wow, GI knew all
Speaker 1: about that. So you were in foster care until you
Speaker 1: were six and then you were adopted? Right? And did
Speaker 1: you any abuse and while you were in foster care
Speaker 1: he knew that as well? Got it? Yeah? Got it?
Speaker 1: Do you think in any way he tried to push
Speaker 1: on those buttons for you, like try to bring back
Speaker 1: those emotions and that insecurity, he would do things like
Speaker 1: he'll ask you, um, what about you would you like
Speaker 1: to change? And then he'll pretend like he's the night
Speaker 1: in shining armor. It's going to fix that for you.
Speaker 1: Or if you got in trouble for something, or one
Speaker 1: time I had a situation where I was allowed to
Speaker 1: go home and I got into it with some girls.
Speaker 1: I had a case. He made it go away. So
Speaker 1: you get what I mean. You got to protect me.
Speaker 1: I take care of you, You take care of me. Well,
Speaker 1: was that moment when you thought to yourself enough? There
Speaker 1: were a lot of times where I came and went
Speaker 1: because you know, with the abusive situations, you'll leave and
Speaker 1: go back, leave and go back. So I did a
Speaker 1: lot of that. But personally, once I got to the
Speaker 1: point where it was just like sickening, like kind of
Speaker 1: like just dealing with him or being around him and
Speaker 1: seeing that the girls were still nineteen and twenty year
Speaker 1: and you're late forties almost, you know, it was sickening.
Speaker 1: Over time, it got worse and worse, and I got
Speaker 1: older and mature, and I knew more about him and
Speaker 1: more about and he didn't want help. That's the thing.
Speaker 1: Like in the beginning, people say, well, once you found
Speaker 1: out she was fourteen, why did you turn him in?
Speaker 1: Because I loved him. I wanted to help him get better,
Speaker 1: because that's how how we work as far as love.
Speaker 1: I love, I'll trying to figure out how to help
Speaker 1: you and what I can do to save you. And
Speaker 1: then once I realized he couldn't be saved, he didn't
Speaker 1: want to be said saved. He would tell me things
Speaker 1: like my mama told me, if you love a man,
Speaker 1: you don't try to change him. You know. The order
Speaker 1: I got, the more it's like, boy, that's a b Yeah,
Speaker 1: you just you just messed up. So once you realize that,
Speaker 1: you know you're a part of that, you know it's
Speaker 1: and it's not okay and it's not acceptable. And I
Speaker 1: had to. I had me a daughter and I didn't
Speaker 1: want her around him, you know what I mean. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, because at first, you know, I wanted to
Speaker 1: be with this man, you know, like, but I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't be with nobody like that, Like I can't
Speaker 1: trust you around my child, like no, But she went
Speaker 1: back that I actually been with her in a relationship
Speaker 1: briefly and he was abusive. He but he was abusive,
Speaker 1: like beating me up like that. I had to get
Speaker 1: away and I didn't have anyone to call, come on
Speaker 1: to Chicago. They got me there. Then he thought that
Speaker 1: I think he thought she was his because he wanted
Speaker 1: me to do a fraternity test. He I guess he
Speaker 1: thought because I an abortion by with his first baby,
Speaker 1: that I ran away when I got pregnant the second
Speaker 1: time to have a baby. But it wasn't that, you know,
Speaker 1: But that's just what he thought because he's thinking, it's
Speaker 1: no way she got pregnant by someone else, Like, but
Speaker 1: you know. So I went there, and my big issue
Speaker 1: with him was the fact that he liked young girls.
Speaker 1: But he specifically kept telling me to buy my daughter dresses.
Speaker 1: Every time I would put her in like leggings and
Speaker 1: things like that. We'd be sitting in the studio, she'd
Speaker 1: be on my lap and He'll be like, uh, well,
Speaker 1: ain't I don't know to go get her dress? Give
Speaker 1: me every time he gave me three dollars for a dress,
Speaker 1: and I'm looking like, why does he care? That's not
Speaker 1: his kid? Why does he keep on it? So I
Speaker 1: just I could just my instincts was like saying this,
Speaker 1: say I'm not feeling it, like I didn't get it.
Speaker 1: That is a really um interesting to know in regards
Speaker 1: to the history of your own abuse and how it
Speaker 1: started so young, and how it seemed as though the
Speaker 1: cycle kind of continued, and as we were talking about before,
Speaker 1: the necessity to be able to tell someone be believed,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, in order to stop the cycle.
Speaker 1: And I never told anyone until I got with him.
Speaker 1: He's the first person I told about my abews like
Speaker 1: my my I mean, we had this thing um in
Speaker 1: her bathroom. She would keep magazines in the bathroom with
Speaker 1: pictures and I would flip all her magazines over because
Speaker 1: I didn't want the faces looking at me because one
Speaker 1: of my abusers would become in the bathroom while I
Speaker 1: was in there. So mentally and she was like, why
Speaker 1: does she keep this girl keep flipping my magazines over it?
Speaker 1: But she never could figure out that. Mentally for me
Speaker 1: as a kid, it was like I felt like, so
Speaker 1: it was crazy. It's just crazy how things happened to
Speaker 1: you and you take it with you. People don't understand
Speaker 1: like you can. A situation can end, but you take
Speaker 1: that with you at your piece of all of your
Speaker 1: things you've been through in life go with you. So yeah,
Speaker 1: have you ever gotten professional help? Never? I was more
Speaker 1: worried about everybody else as I always am. I still
Speaker 1: feel like I just need to help. And I still
Speaker 1: talking to the women that other women he has abused
Speaker 1: has helped me. I talked to them and I love
Speaker 1: it because we don't have to convince each other yeah
Speaker 1: you yes, or you know, like me and his ex
Speaker 1: wife everything, Like I'll tell her something and she'll say
Speaker 1: that's why. Like I gave her a lot of moments
Speaker 1: when it when it is someone being really cut through.
Speaker 1: It's usually a woman, and I mean they be there's
Speaker 1: some really mean ones out there, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: But I take it as they just don't know or
Speaker 1: you just don't want to know, because there's enough information
Speaker 1: out there to know about this one, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, like the Cook County Courthouse public records, Like
Speaker 1: you pull up case after case that he's paid off,
Speaker 1: and you don't pay off people when you're innocent, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Why? Right? Why would you going
Speaker 1: back to that self love? I do believe that within
Speaker 1: us sometimes that self hatred explodes and we projected on
Speaker 1: other people. What were those conversations that you had with
Speaker 1: your mother? Like, yeah, the ones with my my mom?
Speaker 1: We really haven't had many, to be honest. And the
Speaker 1: reason why, I think is because she didn't want to
Speaker 1: deal with her guilt. Like our conversations actually have just
Speaker 1: started like after all of this, and she cried and
Speaker 1: I cried, and I told her I don't blame her, right,
Speaker 1: And the reason why I don't blame her is because
Speaker 1: when he asked me the night he met me and
Speaker 1: at the video, he asked me how old I was?
Speaker 1: I said seventeen. He said when your mama, let you
Speaker 1: come to Chicago. I didn't call her on you know,
Speaker 1: the phone at the at the video, she'd ask can
Speaker 1: I go? I just told him yes because I was going, right,
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I know it wasn't you know,
Speaker 1: but I knew everything, so it really I don't want
Speaker 1: the blame to be on her, because either way go,
Speaker 1: he was booking my flights, giving me money, I would
Speaker 1: have found a way to get there. He has people
Speaker 1: that work for him to make it so. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand that either. But then
Speaker 1: they'll say where was your mother? But they don't ask
Speaker 1: the same questions for him. You don't ask what happened
Speaker 1: to his mom when he got abused by his family members?
Speaker 1: With us women, you know, they tear us all the way,
Speaker 1: now you know what I mean. Well, you know it's
Speaker 1: as if we have to take on everybody's morality. You know, people,
Speaker 1: specifically men don't have to be responsible for their own actions.
Speaker 1: People find a way to look at us and make
Speaker 1: it our fault, you know, or our responsibility. Did he
Speaker 1: share with you his story of abuse to help you see?
Speaker 1: That's the thing I know all about him and Eliah
Speaker 1: everything like the dirty dirt, all of that. He told
Speaker 1: me all his personal problems and turmoils and and that's
Speaker 1: part of it because when he did that, I felt
Speaker 1: like he felt special, Like now I can tell him
Speaker 1: what I've been through and let my guard down. He
Speaker 1: had a thing called pens, Pens and eyeballs, the matter.
Speaker 1: They stick pins in your eyeballs. You don't talk about
Speaker 1: what we do, what we got going on. And he
Speaker 1: said he had that packed with Eliah as well. Wow,
Speaker 1: and she didn't talk. On our next Red Table Talk
Speaker 1: you have six year old never talked about this? Yeah,
Speaker 1: y hey, r T T family. Join our Red Table
Speaker 1: Talk group on Facebook and become part of the conversation.
Speaker 1: To join the Red Table Talk family and become a
Speaker 1: part of the conversation, follow us at facebook dot com
Speaker 1: slash red table Talk. Thanks for listening to this episode
Speaker 1: of Red Table Talk podcast produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio,
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio.