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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront the problems in their lives and

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Speaker 1: then give them actionable advice and have them report back

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Speaker 1: to let us know what happened when they did what

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Speaker 1: we suggested.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: a woman whose husband has repeatedly cheated on her wonders

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Speaker 2: if she should leave.

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Speaker 3: The reason why I told him to leave the house

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Speaker 3: was that I didn't want to fight with him in

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Speaker 3: front of our son, and I told him I need

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Speaker 3: you to take this time to figure out why you

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Speaker 3: do this, What is happening that you need validation from

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Speaker 3: other women first.

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Speaker 1: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment

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Speaker 1: by submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

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Speaker 1: use it in part or in full, and we may

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Speaker 1: edit it for length and clarity. In the session, you'll

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Speaker 1: hear all names have been changed for the privacy of

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Speaker 1: our guests.

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Speaker 3: Hi Guy, Hi.

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Speaker 2: Laurie, and to our listeners. Today we're doing something quite

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Speaker 2: different and quite exciting. We are taping a regular episode

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Speaker 2: of the show. But we're doing it in front of

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Speaker 2: a live audience of two hundred and fifty therapists. Because

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Speaker 2: Y used two if you can have two hundred and fifty,

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Speaker 2: the guest cannot see the audience, and the audience cannot

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Speaker 2: see the guest. Only Lauri and I can. So all

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Speaker 2: the privacy and confidentiality are being maintained. So with that

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Speaker 2: in mind, Laurie, what do we have in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 1: Today? We have a letter about whether to stay in

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Speaker 1: a relationship after infidelity and it goes like this, Therapists.

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Speaker 1: My husband and I are in our late thirties and

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Speaker 1: have been together for almost sixteen years and married for nine.

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Speaker 1: We have a fourteen year old son together. About two

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Speaker 1: years ago, my husband came to me and admitted that

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Speaker 1: he had been cheating on me with his ex girlfriend

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Speaker 1: from his twenties. He said he felt guilty and that

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Speaker 1: he needed to come clean. I appreciated his honesty and

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Speaker 1: that was the basis of the start of our healing.

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Speaker 1: I was obviously very hurt and shocked. I asked that

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Speaker 1: he cut all ties in contact with his ex, including

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Speaker 1: social media. He told me he had, but I found

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Speaker 1: out three weeks later that wasn't the truth. I was broken.

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Speaker 1: How could he lie to me? After I chose to

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Speaker 1: forgive him for his honesty, I was ready to leave him,

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Speaker 1: but he begged me for another chance, so I gave.

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Speaker 4: It to him.

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Speaker 1: I went to therapy shortly after, and I told him

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Speaker 1: that he needed to as well. We did couples counseling

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Speaker 1: with my therapist twice and he never came back, saying,

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Speaker 1: quote he didn't like it, quote we don't need it,

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Speaker 1: and quote we can talk about our problems on our own. Recently,

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Speaker 1: I found a text message on his eyepad that I

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Speaker 1: confronted him about. I am not a snooper, but my

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Speaker 1: gut was telling me I was onto something. He apologized

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Speaker 1: and told me he didn't know what was going on

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Speaker 1: with him and why he was doing this to us.

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Speaker 1: He explained that he's going through a lot mentally, and

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Speaker 1: it was the same cycle again. I asked that they

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Speaker 1: cut ties. He said he did, but a week and

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Speaker 1: a half later I found messages upon messages on his

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Speaker 1: Instagram showing that the relationship never ended. If anything, they

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Speaker 1: were messaging each other more frequently. When I first found

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Speaker 1: out and asked if he had sex with her, he

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Speaker 1: said they did not, But upon reading the messages, I

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Speaker 1: know now that that was also a lie. To say

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Speaker 1: that I am shattered is an understatement. I've asked him

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Speaker 1: to move out temporarily. I cannot even be around him,

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Speaker 1: let alone look at him. I feel lost, angry, betrayed, disrespected, unworthy,

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Speaker 1: and defeated. I took pictures of his messages as proof

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Speaker 1: of his lie, and I can't stop reading them. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what to do. Do I forgive him for

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Speaker 1: the sake of saving our family? How could I trust

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Speaker 1: him again? Is it worth it? Does a marriage survive

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Speaker 1: a second infidelity? I need some guidance. Amanda.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So Amanda has been through a lot. Her question

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Speaker 2: was does a marriage survive a second infidelity or betrayal?

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Speaker 2: I kind of counted five in the letter alone at

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Speaker 2: least because he comes clean. Then he tells her that

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Speaker 2: he cut ties, but then it turns out he didn't

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Speaker 2: cut ties. Then he tells he he'll go to therapy,

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Speaker 2: but then he doesn't go to therapy. It doesn't continue

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Speaker 2: with the therapy. Then two years go by, she finds

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Speaker 2: out it's still going on. He tells her he never

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Speaker 2: slept with her, yet that was wrong too. So there's

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Speaker 2: so many lies in Betraylzi, a way more than two.

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Speaker 2: And this pattern Amanda has of minimizing looks like it's

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Speaker 2: still in full force.

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Speaker 1: To me, Yeah, it seems like she has a lot

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Speaker 1: of denial going on. And I thought it was interesting

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Speaker 1: in the letter where he said he came to her

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Speaker 1: because he wanted to relieve his guilt. He didn't come

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Speaker 1: to her because he wanted to fix things. He cared

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Speaker 1: about her feelings, and it seems like he has this

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Speaker 1: pattern of repeatedly disregarding her feelings and making it more

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Speaker 1: about him continuing the behaviors. So I'm curious to know

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Speaker 1: now where she is weeks later and if her denial

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Speaker 1: is still in full force or if she's kind of

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Speaker 1: waking up a little bit because she did ask him

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Speaker 1: to leave, So let's bring her in and let's find out.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapist.

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Speaker 1: So Hi, Amanda, Hello, welcome to our show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: So, Amanda, we read your letter. I know that was

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Speaker 2: written a few weeks ago. At least in your letter,

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Speaker 2: you said that your husband temporarily moved out. Can you

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Speaker 2: tell us what's happened since he wrote the letter.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he's still out. He's still not back home, but

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Speaker 3: him and our son have talked, and we've talked as well,

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Speaker 3: and just are trying to figure out what we have

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Speaker 3: to do moving forward. But he is still not in

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Speaker 3: the home.

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Speaker 1: When you say what we have to do to move forward,

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Speaker 1: what does he think he has to do?

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Speaker 3: That's a really good question. I don't think he knows either,

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Speaker 3: So I'm just letting him navigate that on his own

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Speaker 3: while I'm also trying to navigate what I feel like

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Speaker 3: I need to do as well.

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about that, about what you

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Speaker 2: feel you need to do.

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Speaker 3: I have besides you both I actually have a therapy

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Speaker 3: session as well coming up for myself and my husband

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Speaker 3: and I have talked about doing therapy together, and I

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Speaker 3: gave him the instruction that he needed to find that

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Speaker 3: therapist for us.

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Speaker 1: Does he have a certain time by which he should

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Speaker 1: find that therapist. It sounds like the two of you

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Speaker 1: have been in this crisis for a few weeks now.

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Speaker 3: I did not give him a timeline, but recently he

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Speaker 3: had asked me and discussed that he wanted to do

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Speaker 3: that together because he has been looking and he said

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Speaker 3: he's done his research, but he would like for us

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Speaker 3: to look together what he has found.

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing two things. I'm hearing he decided he was

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Speaker 1: going to find a therapist, and then I'm hearing he

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Speaker 1: did his research. And then I'm hearing and you guys

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Speaker 1: can't see this, but she's smiling, so she's seeing a

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Speaker 1: little bit through the denial here. And then you're saying,

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Speaker 1: but now he's saying, oh, no, no, no, we need

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Speaker 1: to do this.

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Speaker 3: I e.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you a Manda need to do this correct and

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Speaker 1: just to.

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Speaker 2: Understand about it. So it sounds like the two of

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Speaker 2: you are talking about how to move forward together. Is

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Speaker 2: that correct?

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Speaker 3: Yes and no. I think we're just trying to find

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Speaker 3: what is next for us, if there is still trust there,

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Speaker 3: if this is what he wants to be in this marriage.

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Speaker 1: If this is what he wants, correct, what about what

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Speaker 1: you want?

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm going to therapy for. So I think

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Speaker 3: that's what I've been trying to do myself and ask

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Speaker 3: myself those questions as well.

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Speaker 2: So it's quite complicated these kinds of decisions, and it's

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Speaker 2: a very important decision, and all kinds of factors tell

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Speaker 2: us a little bit more about what's going through your

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Speaker 2: head over these past weeks. We'd like to hit some

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Speaker 2: of the points that you're taking into consideration when you're

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Speaker 2: weighing this kind of decision.

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Speaker 3: I'm just trying to heal, I guess, and in a

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Speaker 3: way just take care of myself for now and figure

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Speaker 3: out if I can trust him again, and do I

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Speaker 3: want this and if we end up getting back together,

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Speaker 3: do I have to deal with this again in two years?

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Speaker 2: Do you trying to figure out if you can trust

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Speaker 2: him by yourself without him participating in that process.

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Speaker 3: No, we've seen each other and he's come over to

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Speaker 3: the house and we've spent time. We've gone out to dinner,

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Speaker 3: and the two times that we have gone out to dinner,

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Speaker 3: it's ended in argument. So that did not go very well.

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Speaker 3: So I'm a little lost too as well.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about how the

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Speaker 1: two of you met. You said in your letter that

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Speaker 1: you are in your late thirties and you've been together

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Speaker 1: for about I think it was sixteen years, and so

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Speaker 1: that would put you around how old were you twenty three?

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Speaker 1: You were twenty three, And you said that he had

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Speaker 1: another relationship with the person that his girlfriend from his twenties,

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Speaker 1: So how much time was there between the time that

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Speaker 1: he broke up with her and the time that the

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Speaker 1: two of you started dating, and then how did you

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Speaker 1: meet and what was the relationship like in those early days.

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Speaker 3: This second woman was not his ex girlfriend, She was

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Speaker 3: not in his past. He met her two years ago

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Speaker 3: when he had another indiscretion with the ex girlfriend that

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Speaker 3: you're talking about, And so that ex girlfriend, I think

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Speaker 3: they were probably really broken up a couple of years

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Speaker 3: before I met him, and I think they stayed not

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Speaker 3: in contact, but they knew the same people and so

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Speaker 3: he would often see her, but they never had that

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Speaker 3: kind of a relationship again. Until about two years ago.

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Speaker 3: And when we first met, it was very fast. We

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Speaker 3: had our son a year after we met.

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Speaker 2: How did that happen?

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Speaker 3: We obviously started dating, seeing each other, talking on the phone, dating,

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Speaker 3: and he was actually an accident. We're not planning to

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Speaker 3: have him.

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Speaker 2: But you had your son and then you only got

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Speaker 2: married when he was around five years old. What prompted

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Speaker 2: you getting married at that point?

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Speaker 3: I think I had been asking about it and that

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Speaker 3: was obviously something that I wanted and I saw in

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Speaker 3: my future, and we had discussed it and he went

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Speaker 3: out and got an engagement ring and proposed to me.

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Speaker 3: So we were engaged for about two years, I believe

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Speaker 3: before we actually got married. And that's how that came about.

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Speaker 1: The relationship was so new when you got pregnant, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't something that the two of you planned. What

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Speaker 1: were those conversations like between the two of you when

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Speaker 1: you found out you were pregnant. What were you feeling?

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Speaker 1: What was he feeling?

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Speaker 3: I was obviously terrified because I come from a Christian background,

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Speaker 3: and I was terrified of my parents, specifically my dad.

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Speaker 3: When I found out I was pregnant and I told him,

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Speaker 3: he was very excited We were both very excited. His

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Speaker 3: whole family was excited, and eventually I told my parents

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Speaker 3: and they were happy. They just wanted to make sure

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Speaker 3: that I was healthy and that we were going to

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Speaker 3: stay together and help raise the baby together even though

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Speaker 3: we weren't married, And that was what happened.

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Speaker 1: And what were things like when you first had the baby.

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Speaker 1: How did the two of you deal with being new

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Speaker 1: parents together?

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Speaker 3: It was hard. He worked, so I stayed up with

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Speaker 3: a baby mostly because I didn't work, so that was hard.

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Speaker 3: It was a hard couple of years.

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Speaker 2: How is he as a dad?

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Speaker 3: He's good. He's good as a dad. I think he's

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Speaker 3: also trying and maybe has been trying to find that

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Speaker 3: footing as well. His dad wasn't really present in his

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Speaker 3: life in the beginning of his life because he was

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Speaker 3: away for work. I was in his dad's fault. But

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Speaker 3: I think that's something that he's mentioned before, is that

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Speaker 3: he's not struggling, but obviously trying to figure out how

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Speaker 3: to be a dad without having his dad when he

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Speaker 3: was younger to kind of show him what that is like.

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Speaker 1: What was the relationship between your parents, Like.

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Speaker 3: My mother and father have been together for a long

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Speaker 3: time and their relationship is good. But they also went

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Speaker 3: through some infidelity when I was.

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Speaker 4: Younger that you knew about when I knew about, Yes.

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Speaker 2: But you learned about when you were how.

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Speaker 3: Old I was seven?

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Speaker 4: I believe you.

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Speaker 2: Were seven when you learned about it.

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Speaker 3: When I heard about what happened. And I don't think

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Speaker 3: I put two and two together until it was a

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Speaker 3: little bit older what that meant. But I just knew

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Speaker 3: that that was something that was never talked about. But

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Speaker 3: I knew that happened.

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Speaker 1: What happened at seven that made you suspect that something

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Speaker 1: had happened between your parents.

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Speaker 3: I heard my mom on the phone. She had received

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Speaker 3: a letter, an anonymous letter, telling her of what happened,

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Speaker 3: and she was on the phone and I heard her.

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Speaker 3: She was angry. She didn't see me, but I heard her.

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Speaker 1: And you didn't tell anyone that you had heard her.

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Speaker 1: I did not know how did your parents handle the

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Speaker 1: news once your mom found out? Did she talk to

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Speaker 1: your dad about it? Did you have any knowledge of

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Speaker 1: how they dealt with the news.

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Speaker 3: I don't. I just know that, and my mom and

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Speaker 3: I have talked about this recently since I opened up

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Speaker 3: to her about this situation, and she basically agree that

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Speaker 3: they never talked about it.

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Speaker 2: Amanda, You said that you heard your mom on the

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Speaker 2: phone only when you were a little bit older. Did

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Speaker 2: you put things together and realize what that was about

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Speaker 2: what had happened? How old were you and what was

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Speaker 2: that like to figure it out?

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Speaker 3: I believe I was nine or ten from what I

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Speaker 3: can remember my parents. I would hear them fight, and

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Speaker 3: I would hear the woman's name, and I would hear

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Speaker 3: them argue about it.

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Speaker 2: Do you find out that your dad has cheated on

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Speaker 2: your mom or was perhaps still doing so? You're still

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Speaker 2: really young, you're nine or ten? How did you feel

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Speaker 2: about your mom, about your dad, about what was going on?

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Speaker 3: I felt bad for my mom, and I was angry

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Speaker 3: with my dad.

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Speaker 1: You're tearing up a bit, and I'm wondering if there's

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Speaker 1: also some real sadness there too for yourself. Were you

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Speaker 1: able to cry the way you're crying right now when

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Speaker 1: you were younger?

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Speaker 3: I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: No, did you tell anyone? Who did you talk to

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Speaker 2: about this? When you were ten years old and you

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Speaker 2: find out.

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Speaker 3: My mom we would mention it in kind of passing,

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Speaker 3: never in detail.

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Speaker 1: What did that look like?

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Speaker 3: I can remember one time, I believe I said her

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Speaker 3: name and my dad got really upset.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you said her name in front of

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Speaker 1: your dad, but you said your mom and you mentioned

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Speaker 1: it in passing. How did that look like between the

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Speaker 1: two of you?

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Speaker 3: From what I can remember, that was the one time

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Speaker 3: I did say her name and she talked to me

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Speaker 3: afterwards and said, you know, you can't say that anymore.

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Speaker 3: Your dad gets really upset. We're not going to.

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Speaker 2: Talk about that. Your dad gets really upset, I get

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Speaker 2: really upset. No, how did you understand that?

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Speaker 3: Because that's how it was when I was growing up.

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Speaker 3: It was all about what my dad wanted. It was

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Speaker 3: about everything was his way.

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Speaker 4: Or no way.

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Speaker 2: So what do you think that taught you? At ten

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Speaker 2: years old, when you understand what's happened, and rather than

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Speaker 2: all the attention of going to your mom and how

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Speaker 2: she's feeling, it still goes back to your dad and

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Speaker 2: how he's feeling. What do you think that taught you.

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Speaker 3: That my mom's feelings were not valid. My feelings weren't

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Speaker 3: valid because instead of talking about it, he got upset.

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Speaker 1: Amanda, do you have siblings? No, so you were all

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Speaker 1: alone in this as a child in this house where

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Speaker 1: everybody knows, and everybody knows that everybody knows, and nobody

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Speaker 1: is acknowledging it except the one time you do, in

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Speaker 1: which case the person who gets upset is the person

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Speaker 1: committing the infidelity.

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Speaker 3: Correct?

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Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to your dad about this even

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Speaker 1: as an adult?

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Speaker 4: Never?

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Speaker 1: And you don't know if it continues to this day.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it does. Actually I can't say. I

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Speaker 3: don't really know, but I would like to hope that

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Speaker 3: it does not.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever ask your mom why she stayed with

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Speaker 2: him if that was going on and perhaps could have

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Speaker 2: continued to go on. Did you ask her what her

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Speaker 2: decision making was?

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Speaker 3: Yes? She says she did it for me. She didn't

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Speaker 3: want me to grow up without my father. She didn't

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Speaker 3: want me to grow up without the two of them,

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Speaker 3: so she stayed and that she did it for me.

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Speaker 4: She still with him, Yes, correct, Yes, that's correct.

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Speaker 2: Is she staying now for you or is she staying

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Speaker 2: now for her?

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Speaker 3: I think she's staying because they have a lot together

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Speaker 3: intermixed their lives. I believe. I asked her a couple

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Speaker 3: of years ago why she stays, and she said, they

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Speaker 3: have a lot of stuff together.

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Speaker 1: You said in your letter that you were worried about

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Speaker 1: what this would do to your family, and particularly what

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Speaker 1: it would do to your son if you two split up.

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Speaker 1: And now you're saying your mother stayed for that reason,

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Speaker 1: but you're long gone and she's still with your dad. Yes,

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Speaker 1: do you think that maybe that's not the whole story

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Speaker 1: about why you keep staying that it's for your son.

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Speaker 1: Maybe your face just did all kinds of things. Tell

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Speaker 1: me more about what the feelings were that made your

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Speaker 1: face make all those expressions at once.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to give up so easily, I guess,

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Speaker 3: and I want to make sure that I try my

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Speaker 3: best to keep this family together.

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Speaker 1: Amanda. I'm asking about your feelings, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: hard sometimes for you to stay there because when you

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Speaker 1: were younger, you just had to push the feelings down.

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Speaker 1: You just had to kind of say, Okay, well, my

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Speaker 1: mom's feeling a lot of stuff, my dad's feeling a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff. I'm feeling a lot of stuff. But

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Speaker 1: we just can't really acknowledge that. Yes, sometimes when we

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Speaker 1: grow up that way, we don't have a lot of

377
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,440
Speaker 1: practice sitting with our feelings. In the minute we feel something,

378
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 1: it feels so unfamiliar and scary, we don't know what

379
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Speaker 1: to do with it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I agree, I have a hard time communicating my feelings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe even knowing what you're feeling. So if

382
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 1: we can just take a minute to go back to

383
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Speaker 1: that maybe. And the maybe was in response to, is

384
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Speaker 1: it possible that saying that you're staying through all these

385
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Speaker 1: various iterations of infidelity and by the way, there were

386
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Speaker 1: more than two you said to a second infidelity in

387
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Speaker 1: your letter, but there are so many along the way

388
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Speaker 1: in terms of the lies and then not telling the

389
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 1: truth about certain things. You've stayed through many iterations of this,

390
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Speaker 1: and you say, I'm worried about this for my son,

391
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Speaker 1: And I said, is it possible that there are other

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Speaker 1: reasons that you're staying and that you're saying it's for

393
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Speaker 1: your son, just like your mom said it was for you,

394
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Speaker 1: but she ended up staying even after you were gone

395
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Speaker 1: from the house. And you said maybe, But then you're

396
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: faced all kinds of things. So what feelings do you

397
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Speaker 1: have when you think about the fact that maybe you're

398
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,679
Speaker 1: not being so honest with yourself about the reasons that

399
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: you keep forgiving your husband? What do you feel in

400
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 1: your body right now when you think I'm not sure

401
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: I'm really telling myself the truth about why I'm staying

402
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,719
Speaker 1: every single time it's uncomfortable? Where in your body?

403
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 3: Like all over?

404
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: Describe the discomfort?

405
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 4: I can't.

406
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,919
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just yeah, I don't know.

407
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: Does it feel at all like the discomfort you felt

408
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: when you were a little girl and you heard your

409
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Speaker 1: mom on the phone.

410
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Speaker 3: A little bit? Yeah?

411
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you didn't have a name for it then,

412
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: So I can see why you might not be able

413
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: to really articulate it now either. You didn't know what

414
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: to call it right except tears are coming out of

415
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Speaker 1: your eyes right now, so that might mean it's maybe

416
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 1: what do you.

417
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 3: Think, sad? Yeah, disappointing.

418
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Speaker 2: It's interesting, Amanda, because the way you talk about feelings

419
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 2: is a little bit in reverse. You were taught growing

420
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Speaker 2: up that the women's feelings didn't matter, your mom's feelings

421
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: didn't matter, yours didn't matter, your dad's mattered, the man's

422
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 2: feelings mattered. And when we asked you earlier about what's

423
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 2: been going on in your head since you wrote the

424
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 2: letter and since he's moved out temporarily, you said you're

425
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 2: trying to figure out if I can trust him. And

426
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,239
Speaker 2: the thing about trust is that you can't figure out

427
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: if you can trust him. It's his to prove that

428
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 2: he's trustworthy. And so the feelings that he's supposed to

429
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: be dealing with you're taking on in some kind of way,

430
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: and your feelings get lost. You're supposed to be focusing

431
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: on how you feel. You named two feelings discomfort and sadness.

432
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: That probably another twenty that can be listed, right, you know,

433
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: betrayal and hurt and resentment and frustration and disappointment that

434
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: can go on. Yes, but you're much more focused on

435
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 2: understanding his feeling like your mom. You're focused on trying

436
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 2: to figure him out rather than trying to figure you out.

437
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 4: Yes, do you notice that I do?

438
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Speaker 2: And so when Laurie's asking you to try and pay

439
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 2: attention to what's going on in your body, to try

440
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,959
Speaker 2: and identify what you're feeling, it's a really important exercise

441
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 2: and it's a skill set that you have to work

442
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 2: on because you're not cluding enough to your body and

443
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: to your feelings because you were taught that they don't matter,

444
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 2: so you don't have to hone that kind of understanding

445
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: of them. But now you do now for this, you

446
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 2: really do. And so I want to ask you, over

447
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: these few weeks, what have some of the low moments

448
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: been for you?

449
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 3: There have been moments of self doubt. I might not

450
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 3: good enough.

451
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: You know that if you were good enough, he wouldn't

452
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: be cheating. Yes, so his cheating is a reflection on

453
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: your worth, not a reflection on him.

454
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 3: I guess. Just the repeatedness of it just makes.

455
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 4: Me feel.

456
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: That no matter what I do, why why is that

457
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 3: not enough? And why does he continue to seek whatever

458
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 3: is he seeking with other women?

459
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: But it never occurs to you to wonder whether he's

460
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: good enough to be in a relationship, given how disrespectful

461
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: he's been in this relationship recently.

462
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 3: Yes, I have thought about that.

463
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts?

464
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 3: I think? And I've told him this, I said, I

465
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: think he likes the idea of having a wife and

466
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 3: a child and a family. But I believe that there

467
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 3: is still a part of him that feels like there

468
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 3: is more out there.

469
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,479
Speaker 1: That's what you think, or that's what he said to you,

470
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: That's what I think. Oh, so you haven't asked him

471
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: about this?

472
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 3: I have. We have talked about this, it.

473
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: Said in your letter that he said at one point,

474
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: I have a lot going on mentally, and he felt

475
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: that that was causing him to act out in this way.

476
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: What did he say was going on with him?

477
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 3: Mainly work? I guess that's been the most that he's

478
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 3: mentioned as far as the stresses in his life. Is

479
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 3: just right now? Work?

480
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: You say, right now? But that was two years ago?

481
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 3: Oh back then? Yeah, I don't know. We never really

482
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 3: explored that.

483
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: I just have a question about how you thought about

484
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: your mom when your dad was cheating on her. You

485
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: say that you keep having this kind of rumination around

486
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: if you were good enough, he wouldn't have to look elsewhere.

487
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: That that's sort of the distorted thinking that you have,

488
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 1: and we're gonna call it distorted thinking. Did you think

489
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: that your mom wasn't good enough for your dad and

490
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 1: that's why he was cheating?

491
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 3: No, I never thought about it that way.

492
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: So where did you get this idea that you were

493
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: not good enough? In fact, as a child, it might

494
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: even be possibly that you felt the opposite, that my

495
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: mom's too good for this? Why does she put up

496
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: with this? Did you ever feel that I did? Yes,

497
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: So why do you think you don't feel that way

498
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: about yourself. You saw that your mom was putting up

499
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: with something she deserved better. But I don't hear you

500
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: saying to yourself, I deserve better you he must deserve better.

501
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: Something must be wrong with me.

502
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: I guess that's where the self dow comes in.

503
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: How do you think your dad would feel if he

504
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 2: knew that your husband was doing what he did to you.

505
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 3: I think he would probably go back to what happened

506
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: between him and my mom and feel like he couldn't

507
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: judge him because he did the same thing.

508
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 2: You're his daughter. He wouldn't feel upset for you, angry

509
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: for you. He would be that calm about it. Well,

510
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: well I did it, so I guess that's what my

511
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: daughter gets. Yeah, he knows, he knows this is going on.

512
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: My mom told him, And has he spoken to you

513
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 2: about it?

514
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 3: No?

515
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: What do you make of that?

516
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: That's how it is all the time. He doesn't talk

517
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 3: about his feelings. My parents don't talk about anything. We

518
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 3: never sit and talk about what happened or how we feel.

519
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: That's been like that since I was a child.

520
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: And then you continue that legacy with yourself because you

521
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: don't ask yourself how you feel either. You said earlier

522
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: I don't really know how I feel. I think you

523
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: don't really ask yourself how you feel much. You just

524
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: try and figure it out quote unquote. Or you look

525
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: to your husband to see what's happening there. That'll give

526
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: you an orientation about what to do or what to think.

527
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: But you don't look inward about what is this doing

528
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: to me? Do you ask yourself? Wait, how am I

529
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: feeling with this? What's this doing to me? What's going

530
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: on in my body? When I'm thinking about these issues?

531
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: Do you ask those questions?

532
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: I do? I did? In the beginning, I was very angry.

533
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: That was kind of the biggest emotion was anger.

534
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,239
Speaker 2: But that's when you found out, Yes, I'm asking In

535
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: the weeks since he's temporarily moved out, have you asked yourself?

536
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: How am I doing without him now? Now I'm not

537
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: living with him? What does that feel like? How different

538
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: does that feel? Am I more worried about what he's

539
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: up to? Less worried about what he's up to? Do

540
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: I feel a relief? Do I feel worse?

541
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: Yes? I have asked myself those questions, and I feel

542
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: a little bit of peace.

543
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: You feel at peace? That's important?

544
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 3: Yes, And I'm not as worried about what he's doing.

545
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 3: I was two years ago the first time it happened,

546
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 3: But this time around, I'm not as worried and I

547
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: feel a little better peace.

548
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: So you're getting in touch with the fact that you

549
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: feel a little bit of relief in peace. How has

550
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: he responded to the anger, the hurt, the betrayal, all

551
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: of the feelings that you've talked about that came up

552
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: each time this happens. How does he react? Does he

553
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: comfort you? Is he curious about your feelings? What does

554
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: he do?

555
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 4: Yes?

556
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 3: He does? He comforts me in what way? He apologizes

557
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: for what he did and asks what can I do

558
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 3: to make this better? What do you need from me?

559
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: Oh? Great, what do you say?

560
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 3: I say, you need to give me time. This was

561
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 3: when first happened. I said, I don't want to be

562
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 3: around you, so I feel I'm very angry and if

563
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: we're around each other, we're going to fight because I'm

564
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 3: still angry. So I told him I need space, and

565
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: he gave me that space. He didn't contact me, he

566
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: didn't text, call, nothing.

567
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: One of the things you might need from him is

568
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: to understand why that happened. What was going on? Have

569
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: you asked him that have you told him that's one

570
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: thing you need I have.

571
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 3: The reason why I told him to leave the house

572
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 3: was that I was angry and I didn't want to

573
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 3: fight with him in front of our son because I

574
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 3: knew that that was going to happen. And second partly,

575
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 3: I told him, I need you to take this time

576
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 3: to figure out and dig deep why you do this,

577
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 3: Why you do this repeatedly? What is happening that you

578
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: feel that you need validation from other women? And he'll

579
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: apologize for what he did, but then it always comes

580
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 3: back to, well, what this is how I was feeling,

581
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 3: So I think this is why I did this, and.

582
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: That part of it is understanding. We always say insight

583
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: is the booby prize of therapy, that you can have

584
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: all the insight in the world, but if you don't

585
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: actually make changes, the insight is useless. So we're hearing

586
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: he might have some explanations, but I don't see the

587
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: changes the action him not saying he's going to change

588
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: his behavior, but changing his behavior. And I'm thinking particularly

589
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: about when he decided to go to couple's therapy with you,

590
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: and he went to two sessions and then decided somehow

591
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: magically that the two of you would be able to

592
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: get through this crisis in your relationship. What was that

593
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: like for you? It sounds like he said that and

594
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: you just said okay. Were you upset about it? What

595
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: did you communicate to him at that time?

596
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: I was upset and I told him I think you're

597
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 3: making excuses as to why you don't want to go.

598
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: Why did you accept that from him?

599
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 3: Because I didn't want to argue anymore and he would

600
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: just skid great time I brought it up, or just upset.

601
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: It sounds like there's this idea that you're there to

602
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: caretake his feelings, that you need to take to smiling

603
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: you guys, that you need to take care of his

604
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: feelings and then yours become almost irrelevant. You're so good

605
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: at pushing your feelings down and really magnifying and amplifying

606
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: other people's needs and feelings. We saw that everybody in

607
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: the family took care of your dad's feelings. But I

608
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: wonder if at some point you thought I want something

609
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: different than what my mom had. Did you ever think

610
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: about that, like, maybe I don't want to be my

611
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: partner's caretaker, but maybe I want to have more reciprocity

612
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: in my relationship, and I don't want to just back

613
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: down because he might get angry even though I'm asking

614
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: for something reasonable.

615
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 3: Yes, and that didn't happen up until recently.

616
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: What happened recently because it sounds like nobody's made an appointment.

617
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: He was going to take on the responsibility of finding

618
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: a couple's therapists and getting you guys there. But it

619
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: sounds like now he's asking you to participate in that

620
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: and neither of you has. So what do you think

621
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: is going on there? With the delay?

622
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 3: I don't think he's ready.

623
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: What about you?

624
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 3: I'm ready? I told him I'm ready. I have a

625
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 3: therapist that I'm going to see. And I was smiling

626
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,959
Speaker 3: earlier about what you were talking about me caretaking about

627
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 3: his feelings because my therapist who I went to two

628
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: years ago, who also saw as a couple of therapy,

629
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 3: when she saw me by myself, she said that about

630
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 3: me as.

631
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 1: Well, And did that have an impact on you? When

632
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: she said that it did.

633
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 3: I didn't realize it until she said that, and it

634
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: really opened my eyes and made me reflect on the

635
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 3: years that we had been together, how my actions reflect

636
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 3: what his possible reactions would be right.

637
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: So, if you were doing that beautiful job that you

638
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: do caretaking for other people, but you were doing it

639
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: for yourself, if you were your own caretaker, what would

640
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: you do to take care of yourself right now, to

641
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: take care of your feelings in particular?

642
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 3: That's really hard for me to think about.

643
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: You teared up again. Something touched you by having that

644
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: question asked. I don't think a lot of people ask

645
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 1: you that question.

646
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,919
Speaker 2: No, So think about it now.

647
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: What do you think your.

648
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 3: Tears are trying to say that I should take care

649
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 3: of my needs and that my needs and my feeling

650
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 3: should come first. Tell us how if you were caretaking

651
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: for yourself and you say, oh, wow, Amanda's really hurting

652
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 3: right now. She really needs help right now. She's all

653
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: alone in this. People know about it, but everyone's pretending

654
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: it's not really happening. Her husband is making noises about

655
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 3: doing things to change, but doesn't seem to take action,

656
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 3: and she's feeling demoralized, betrayed, abandoned, scared, unsure her self

657
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 3: worth is suffering.

658
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: You, as the good caretaker that you are, how would

659
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 1: you care for Amanda who's suffering?

660
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: I would tell her to leave the situation. I would

661
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 3: tell her to leave and take care of herself and

662
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 3: go to therapy every week and talk about your feelings

663
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 3: and he and heal.

664
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us what that would look like for her

665
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: if she left. Tell her, as the caretaker, what you

666
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: think her life might look like.

667
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: I know you're an only child. Imagine you had a sister,

668
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,399
Speaker 2: and the sister is Amanda, and the sisters in this

669
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: situation and answer Laurie's question, But you're talking to your

670
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 2: sister called Amanda, who's in this situation, and you care

671
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: for her very much, what would you say to her?

672
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 3: To your sister, I would tell her that she deserves better,

673
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 3: and that she deserves to be treated with respect, and

674
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 3: she needs to be with somebody who truly loves her

675
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 3: and not just say that they love you, but their

676
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: actions need to match their words as well, and that

677
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: I would tell her that she can do this on

678
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 3: her own and that she doesn't need anybody else to

679
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 3: make her feel like she's worthy.

680
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: Can you also tell her what you love about her

681
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: and what makes her so lovable? Your sister, Amanda, who's you?

682
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: But you're bring the caretaker here for your sister? Tell

683
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: her what you love about her and what makes her

684
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: so lovable.

685
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: I love that you're very empathetic with other people and

686
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 3: that you love to take care of everybody else. But

687
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 3: at the same time, maybe it's time that you take

688
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 3: care of yourself going forward. I love that you're a

689
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 3: great mom. I love that you're a good friend.

690
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: Is she fun to be around?

691
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: Yes? I love that you're funny and you get along

692
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 3: well with everyone. Really that you come in contact with.

693
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: Amanda has a real shine that's being dimmed at the moment,

694
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: and her sister sees the shine and sees who Amanda

695
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: really is and wants that Amanda to come back. I

696
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: think you I have all the right instincts. When we

697
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: ask you really what's best for you, you're very clear

698
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: about I should leave, Amanda should leave. The sister should leave.

699
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: She cannot be with someone she can't trust, somebody who

700
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: doesn't respect her, someone who makes promises but doesn't live

701
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: up to any of them. You're very, very clear about that.

702
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: When three weeks ago, whenever it was when you asked

703
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: him to move out, you had all the intentionality. I

704
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: think what happens thereafter is that you get really scared,

705
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: and I think you get really scared that if your

706
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: husband would say to you, well, you're the one then

707
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: that's breaking up the family. You're the one that's doing

708
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 2: the damage. You're the one that's giving up and not

709
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 2: willing to fight for us. That you would feel really

710
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: guilty because your mom stayed for you and turns out

711
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: for her because she stayed after you left. But I

712
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: think that your sister, if she existed, wouldn't need to.

713
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 2: I help support you in following through with your own

714
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: decisions because you do something similar that your husband does.

715
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: You make yourself promises and you don't follow through, And

716
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: I suspect you've promised yourself a bunch of things already

717
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: that you haven't followed through on. Is that true?

718
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 3: Yes?

719
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: Like what that?

720
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 3: I was going to give myself a lot of space

721
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 3: and time to be away from my husband. But scary

722
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 3: to think about being alone?

723
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: What's scary about that?

724
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 3: I was alone my whole life.

725
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: Basically, there's a difference between being alone in your experience

726
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 1: and having some space for yourself and for you. It

727
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: sounds like there was such loneliness when being alone as

728
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: a child. So you can be alone and not lonely,

729
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: But it sounds like you were alone and very lonely

730
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: living in this house with this big open secret that

731
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: nobody acknowledged. Yes, and nobody to help you process that experience. Yes,

732
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: And it sounds like the same thing now, is that

733
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: even though you're with your husband, it sounds like you're

734
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: just as lonely. And you said, now that you've had

735
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: a little space, you're feeling some relief and it might

736
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: feel scary and you might go back to that little

737
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 1: girl place of being lonely, but you're not any less

738
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: lonely than you were when you were with him.

739
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: Right. The emotional disconnection of being with someone when you

740
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: feel so disconnected to them emotionally can be exquisitely painful,

741
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 2: and far more painful than being alone, because you're with

742
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: someone who's supposed to be connected or supposed to see you,

743
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: care for you, validate you, appreciate you, and you're with

744
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: someone who doesn't do those things in words sometimes and

745
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 2: spit not in actions, and that can feel worse by far.

746
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: I think the biggest betrayal going on here is the

747
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: betrayal of yourself. He's betrayed you in all these different ways,

748
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: but you've betrayed yourself in believing whatever thoughts you have

749
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: about yourself that we've seen or not true, and then

750
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: telling yourself that you're going to take care of yourself,

751
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: but then you abandon yourself every time. Yeah, yeah, And

752
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: that abandonment over time has left you in this place

753
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: where you're just kind of numb.

754
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, very much. That was the first man month, No,

755
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 3: two weeks. I think I was very numb.

756
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: And so we want you to talk to your sister

757
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: one last time about the betrayal and how much it

758
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: breaks your heart to see her betray herself over and

759
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: over and over. What is that like for you when

760
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: you love her so much and talk to her about that.

761
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 3: I think it hurts me to see you keep saying

762
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 3: that you're going to take care of yourself and heal,

763
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 3: but at the same time still think about your husband's

764
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 3: feelings and kind of put that first before yours. It

765
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 3: makes me sad for you that you're letting that happen,

766
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: that you're not seeing your worth, and that you continue

767
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: to go back on your words. And it's not disappointing,

768
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 3: but at the same time it's it is, and I

769
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,959
Speaker 3: mean in the nicest way, disappointed that you keep going

770
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 3: back on your word when You've made that very clear

771
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 3: last time it happened, that it happens again. That was it,

772
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 3: and you were leaving.

773
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: Ask her what she needs to stop betraying herself.

774
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 3: What do you need to stop betraying yourself?

775
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: And what do you think her answer would be?

776
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 3: Strength? A little bit more strength.

777
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: What about support?

778
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 3: Yes, strength and support and validation of her feelings.

779
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 2: First by her first and then by others. We know

780
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: your mom knows, dad knows, but it's not talking about it.

781
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: You don't have a sister, who else knows? Who else

782
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: is there to support you?

783
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 3: I have girlfriends, but there's one in particular that I

784
00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 3: opened up to because she's gone through not this before,

785
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 3: but similar she's divorced, and so she's gone through it,

786
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 3: and I opened up to her first about it.

787
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: Did she give you any guidance about how she did

788
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: it and how it's been for her since she left.

789
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: Yes, And I've watched her through the whole process, so

790
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: I know exactly what she went through.

791
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: What was the hardest part about leaving for her?

792
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 3: I think she kept hoping that he was going to change.

793
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: Do you think, Amanda, you've been honest enough with yourself

794
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: about how much pain you'reine.

795
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 3: I don't think completely. No, I think a little bit,

796
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 3: but I don't think I've ever sat in it and

797
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 3: made myself really feel what I'm feeling.

798
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the way things get passed down through

799
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: generations and how your mom tried to protect you, but

800
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: you were in so much pain because no one was

801
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: talking about it. And now your son does he know

802
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: what's going on or just that the two of you

803
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 1: are splitting, but doesn't really know why.

804
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 3: So he knew because he saw messages.

805
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: He knew, but you hadn't told him, just like you

806
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: heard your mom on the phone, but she hadn't told you.

807
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm correct.

808
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: And so did you know that he knew or did

809
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: you learn that later when your husband moved out.

810
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 3: No, it was before he opened up to me. He

811
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 3: came to me. He saw that I was upset and

812
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 3: I just needed to get out of the house, and

813
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: he said, let's go outside, you know, let's go for

814
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 3: a walk. We went for a walk, and he knew

815
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: that I was sad because I was crying, and he

816
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 3: knew something was going on. I'm very close with my son,

817
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: and so he can feel like when something's off with me,

818
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: and so I just told him I couldn't stay in

819
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 3: that house, and he said, let's go side for a walk,

820
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: because he knew kind of what happened two years ago,

821
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 3: but didn't really know. And so he said, was it

822
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 3: like what happened two years ago?

823
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 1: And you didn't know that he knew about two years ago.

824
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 3: I did know because he's heard me same as my

825
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 3: happit with my mom. Honestly, what exactly does he know?

826
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 3: He knows that there was another woman, okay, and.

827
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: Has he talked to you or your husband about how

828
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: he feels about that.

829
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 3: The only thing he said to me that day when

830
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 3: we were walking was that he thinks I deserve better.

831
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 2: Have you ausked him how he feels about this, even

832
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 2: the fact that his dad moved out.

833
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 3: Temporarily in the beginning I did. He said he was upset,

834
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 3: and he said that I can't believe that this is happening.

835
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 3: And he was more worried about, you know, what was

836
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 3: it going to be like with my in laws? Is

837
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 3: he going to see his cousins? And I said, yeah,

838
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 3: that's not going to change your dad's leaving. But not

839
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 3: things got to change about your relationship with me or

840
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 3: your relationship with your dad. If any dynamic changes, it's

841
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:13,439
Speaker 3: going to be between me and your dad.

842
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 2: Has he spoken to his father about it? Have they

843
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: had any conversation about this?

844
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 3: Yes, he wasn't going to and he was very mad

845
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 3: at his dad and didn't want to talk to him,

846
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 3: and I encouraged him that he should talk to his dad.

847
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: It sounds like it was your son's responsibility to be

848
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: the adult there and talk to his father instead of

849
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: his father coming to him and saying, hey, buddy, how's

850
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: it going. I know this is a lot what's going on?

851
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And I told my husband, I said, I

852
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 3: know you can feel that your son is upset with you,

853
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 3: but you need to be the one.

854
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: What did he say to that when you asked him

855
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: to do that?

856
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 3: Is that No, he said that he was going to

857
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 3: wait until my son was ready to talk to him.

858
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: So it was on your son to be ready to

859
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: go and talk to him.

860
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 4: Correct.

861
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 1: And so that's the pattern that has gone on the

862
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: whole time, that you ask for things that are reasonable

863
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: and he says no or agrees to them, but then

864
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: doesn't follow through and you end up in the same place.

865
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: It's the cycle all over again. Yes, So if you

866
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: do nothing, and you stay in this place, and you

867
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: repeat the pattern. We don't see any indication that he's

868
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: going to change, So let's just assume that things are

869
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: as they are. What's your plan.

870
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 3: If things stay the way they are. I don't see

871
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 3: myself moving forward with this marriage. If nothing changes, I

872
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 3: don't want to move forward.

873
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: Do you see any indication that things are going to

874
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: be any different.

875
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 3: At this moment now?

876
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: And what about for your What do you think would

877
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: be a better situation for him? In other words, do

878
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: you think that it's better for your son to grow

879
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: up the way you grew up in a house like that,

880
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: or do you think it might be better for your

881
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 1: son looking at models of what relationships look like, whose

882
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: feelings matter, how people deserve to be treated, what trust

883
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 1: looks like, what honesty looks like. Do you want him

884
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: growing up the way you did and potentially getting into

885
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: a relationship with those ideas?

886
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 3: No, I don't.

887
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: They're not any signs we see or you see from

888
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 2: your husband that he's about to change, or that he's

889
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: trying to change their promises, but they're no actions. But

890
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 2: there are a lot of signs to indicate that he's

891
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 2: not changing when someone promises to change and fails, and

892
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: promises to deliver something and fails and promises to be different,

893
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: promises to find a therapist, et cetera, and they fail

894
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: over and over. They're not signs that they're changing, but

895
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 2: they're very clear signs that they are not.

896
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 3: Yes, I agree.

897
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 2: Do you see how many signs there are in that regard?

898
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 3: Yes?

899
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: I guess. My question is what is your line in

900
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 1: the sand? For instance, if nothing changes, how many more

901
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 1: times are you willing to endure the kind of pain

902
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: that you go through every time this happens. Is that

903
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,240
Speaker 1: zero more times, one more time, five more times?

904
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 3: It's zero more times. I can't do it.

905
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 5: This was the worst by far, okay, that I felt

906
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 5: in my life.

907
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: So we had two hundred and fifty pieces of advice

908
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 2: for you.

909
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: That's how many therapists are sitting in the room.

910
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 3: That's awesome. I'll take it all.

911
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 2: Here's the first part. We'd like you to write a

912
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: letter to your husband in which you explained to him

913
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: what you would have needed to see from him after

914
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 2: that first betrayal when he first came to you two

915
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 2: years ago and said, hey, to let you know this

916
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: was going on. What you would have needed from him

917
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 2: in order to feel that he was extremely serious about

918
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: wanting to repair the marriage and about wanting to change

919
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 2: his ways, and about wanting to really heal and to

920
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 2: help heal you and the hurt he caused you. So,

921
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 2: for example, you want to say to him, I would

922
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 2: have needed you to say, here's full transparency. Here's the

923
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: password to my phone, to my email. You get to

924
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 2: look at it whenever you want. You get to ask

925
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 2: whatever you want, true where I am, You get to

926
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 2: reach out. I will be available. You can say to him,

927
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 2: I would have needed you to ask me every day,

928
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: how are you feeling? And if I was angry that day,

929
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: you would have needed to listen and contain it and

930
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 2: absorb it, because the hurt doesn't go away within a day.

931
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 2: So you really want to lay out for him, this

932
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 2: is what I would have needed, because what you're really

933
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 2: saying in that is this is what I deserved from

934
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 2: you and what I didn't get. I deserved all of this.

935
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 2: You coming to me, you finding the couple's therapist, you

936
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: setting up the appointment, You taking the lead in healing

937
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: us rather than me having to hound you.

938
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: And we want you to be very specific because sometimes

939
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: it's hard for you to figure out what you need.

940
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: We want you to make a list of ten things

941
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: at least minimum, and that might include many of the

942
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: things Guy just talked about. We're talking about two years ago,

943
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: what you would have needed after the first one. This

944
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: is what I would have needed to be able to

945
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 1: trust you again. This is what I would have needed

946
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,479
Speaker 1: to heal the pain and the hurt that I've gone through.

947
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: It goes without saying that that's still what you need.

948
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 2: But that letter you're going to write and email to

949
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: him this week, that's the first task.

950
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: How does that sound to you?

951
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 3: Refreshing?

952
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: And the second thing is we would like you to

953
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: check in with the sister that we have made up

954
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: and imagined, because I think it's easier for you to

955
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: be a caretaker to someone else. Eventually you'll be able

956
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: to care for yourself. But if you think about this sister,

957
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: we want you to kind of write her in your mind.

958
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: It could be in front of the mirror, it could

959
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: be an email. Dear sister, I want to let you

960
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: know what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling. Have that conversation,

961
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: just like you did with us today, And we want

962
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: you to find a time every day. It takes no

963
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: more than five minutes. Maybe it's when you wake up

964
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,839
Speaker 1: in the morning, maybe it's before you go to bed.

965
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: But we want to make sure that you don't abandon

966
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,959
Speaker 1: yourself by not doing it. So think of a time

967
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: that's going to be my time to talk about feelings

968
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: with my sister. And we think that this will help

969
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: you to access your feelings more in a way that

970
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 1: you can't do when you feel like other people's feelings

971
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: are more important than yours.

972
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: Because we think that if you had a sister that

973
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 2: was going through this, you would be amazing with her. Yeah,

974
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 2: and we want you to be amazing with you. Yes,

975
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,439
Speaker 2: but wait, there's more. So here's another time.

976
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 3: I don't doubt it.

977
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,760
Speaker 2: Yes, you have this one friend who knows everything, who's

978
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: been through a divorce, and she's a great resource and

979
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 2: support terrific. We'd like you to bring one other friend.

980
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 2: And it's important for a accountability for yourself. And I

981
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 2: think it's important for one other person who maybe hasn't

982
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 2: been through it to understand what you're going through so

983
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 2: that you can have more support than just this one friend.

984
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 2: And we want to ask you if you have someone

985
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 2: in mind. Do you think would be good who would

986
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 2: be understanding and compassionate, not judge you, but really help

987
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 2: you with where you are now. If you are really

988
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 2: telling them everything, anyone come to mind that would seem

989
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,240
Speaker 2: right for that I do if you tell her everything,

990
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: how would that feel with this friend that you just

991
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 2: thought of?

992
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think it would feel a little freeing.

993
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 3: And I think she would be great because she knows

994
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 3: a little bit already about it, not fully, and she's

995
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 3: followed up with me excellent.

996
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 4: That's great.

997
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: And the reason that we want you to do that

998
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 1: is we're not surprised that maybe you've told her a

999
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: little bit but not the whole thing, because you do

1000
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 1: that with yourself. You kind of say, oh, it's only

1001
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: been twice, but actually there's been so many different lies

1002
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: and betrayals, and if you really tell someone else, they

1003
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: help you to make it real because sometimes you talk

1004
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: yourself out of your own reality. Because I think your

1005
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: husband talks you out of your own reality.

1006
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 3: Yes, it's pretty spot on.

1007
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: So when you get talked out of your reality repeatedly,

1008
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: like you're overstating this, or it didn't really happen, or

1009
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:25,439
Speaker 1: I didn't really lie, like that, then you start questioning yourself, Wait,

1010
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: what's real? What's not real? Can I trust my own instincts?

1011
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: So being able to tell the whole narrative without leaving

1012
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: any of the betrayals out, then somebody else knows about them,

1013
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: so that it helps you to not talk yourself out

1014
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: of reality. And that relates to the next task that

1015
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: we have for you. This one is similar, but it's

1016
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: something that you do with yourself. We want you to

1017
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: make a list of all of the betrayals and it's

1018
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: going to be in two columns. So the first column

1019
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: is every lie that your husband has told you, and

1020
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: the second column is every lie that you suspect but

1021
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: you don't know. So there's the confirmed ones and then

1022
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: there's the suspected ones, and we want you to look

1023
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: at that every time you get afraid about leaving, because

1024
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: you sound really clear that you don't want to go

1025
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: through this again, and you also seem really clear that

1026
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: he's probably going to do this again no matter what

1027
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: he says, because you've been through it so many times

1028
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 1: and it's been several weeks and there's still no couples

1029
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: therapy going on, and you said you would tolerate this

1030
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: zero more times. So sometimes when you start to feel

1031
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: like maybe you'll change this time, we want you to

1032
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: have that list to look at of Wait a minute,

1033
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 1: here is everything that has happened. Here are all of

1034
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 1: the lies. And if you can see them on one

1035
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: page right in front of you and don't leave anything out.

1036
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: It could be lies about anything. Oh yes, I'll go

1037
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: to therapy. No I won't go to therapy. No I

1038
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: didn't do this on Instagram. Oh actually I did. No

1039
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 1: I didn't sleep with her, Yes I did. Even lies

1040
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 1: from before like oh, yes, we'll get married. No, I

1041
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 1: don't want to get married. You're not. So we want

1042
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: you to go way back to all the lies and

1043
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 1: make a comprehensive list lies that are confirmed, lies that

1044
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 1: you suspect. Your eyes just went really wide, so you

1045
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: must think there's a lot of them. You're laughing. Yeah,

1046
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: So we want you to have that whenever you get afraid,

1047
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: like oh wow, maybe it's not that bad. We want

1048
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: you to really see the reality of your situation so

1049
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: you don't talk yourself out of it.

1050
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 2: And the next task is related to this fear. Have

1051
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 2: you spoken to a divorce lawyer?

1052
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 3: Not yet?

1053
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 2: Okay, would like you to find one. We'd like you to,

1054
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 2: if possible, meet and get an idea of what your

1055
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 2: rights are. A decision to divorce is one that's many things,

1056
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: but it's also financial, and you need to know where

1057
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 2: you stand, what you can expect, and you need that

1058
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 2: legal advice. We know there's a lot of fear about leaving,

1059
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 2: and we know that part of the fear for all

1060
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 2: people who are considering this is the uncertainty. But if

1061
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: you break it down, start to have a clear plan,

1062
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 2: if you start to be able to visualize, Okay, well

1063
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: this would happen, then this would happen. It becomes less

1064
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: scary the more articulated and clear it is. And it

1065
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 2: has to start with a legal counsel and a lawyer

1066
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 2: telling you, here's what you can expect financially, here's what

1067
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 2: the process would be, here's what you should and shouldn't do.

1068
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 2: Get the initial lay of the land, so you have

1069
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 2: that so when the point that you do decide you

1070
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 2: can move forward. The last one is at the point

1071
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 2: that you're ready. So that might not be something you

1072
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 2: do this week, but we just want to suggest it

1073
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: that at the point that you're ready, if you do

1074
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 2: decide to move forward and to separate fully. Every day,

1075
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 2: you ask your son how he's doing, how he's feeling,

1076
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 2: whether he wants to talk about it.

1077
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he might say I'm really worried about you

1078
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 1: because he's become a little bit of a caretaker too.

1079
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: It sounds like that's what he did when he found out,

1080
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: so you had a very parallel situation. He had known

1081
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: about it, he found out, he came to you, mom,

1082
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: I want to take care of you. Let's go for

1083
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: a walk. So we want to make sure that he's

1084
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: talking about his feelings. Yes, Mom, I'm worried about you.

1085
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: You can say I'm doing fine. I'm taking care of myself,

1086
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: going to therapy, I have a place to go, I

1087
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 1: have friends, I have everything I need. But how about you?

1088
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: The important thing is that he knows he can talk

1089
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: to you if he's feeling sad or scared, and he's

1090
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: not going to have to take care of your feelings.

1091
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 3: Yes, I agreed.

1092
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: We really want you to take care of yourself, and

1093
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: we're giving you the steps to take care of yourself.

1094
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 1: How does it feel to even think about doing that.

1095
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 3: I feel like it's out of my league. I'm not

1096
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 3: used to taking care of myself, but it sounds kind

1097
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 3: of exciting.

1098
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: And whenever you feel like I don't know if I'm

1099
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: worthy of being taken care of, or I don't know

1100
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: if I'm worthy of my husband, why does he need

1101
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: to go to these other women? Something must be wrong

1102
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: with me.

1103
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 2: Bring out your sister, dear.

1104
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: Sister, time to chat.

1105
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, all right, Amanda. We wanted to thank you

1106
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 2: very much for doing this. You agree to do it

1107
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:18,919
Speaker 2: in front of a live audience. We're so appreciative of that,

1108
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 2: and we really feel that you actually do know what's

1109
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 2: best for you. You're a good caretaker and if you just

1110
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 2: shine that internally and pointed at you, you'll be in

1111
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 2: a much better place.

1112
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, Yes, and I would just like to have

1113
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: everybody give a round of applause for Amanda. Thank you

1114
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: all right, Thank you so much, and we really look

1115
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: forward to hearing how it goes this week.

1116
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 2: We really do thank you.

1117
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:56,919
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, Lauren Guy for taking the risk

1118
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 6: of doing this. Someone in this room actually texted be

1119
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 6: during this this is being great. It's so stressful, but

1120
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 6: this is badass.

1121
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 2: Well if you think it was stressful for you, you.

1122
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 6: Know, people's hearts were pounding out there. So you so brave,

1123
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 6: so courageous for what you do making therapy so visible

1124
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 6: in the world. Thank you so very.

1125
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 2: Much you listening to deo Therapists. We'll be back after

1126
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 2: our short break.

1127
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: So Guy, it's a week later. We're back in the studio.

1128
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 1: We're not live anymore, and we heard back from Amanda.

1129
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: Let's hear how the week went for her.

1130
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 3: Hello, Lauren, Guy, I wanted to give you an update

1131
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 3: from our conversation and the homework you both, along with

1132
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty therapists, gave me. I did all

1133
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 3: but one. That one is in progress. Let's start with

1134
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 3: the ones completed. Right after our conversation, I reached out

1135
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 3: to one of my good friends and asked her to

1136
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 3: have lunch with me. There, I was able to fully

1137
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 3: open up and tell her everything that happened. She was

1138
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 3: very empathetic and validated a lot of my feelings. It

1139
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 3: felt good to talk to someone who's never gone through

1140
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 3: this before and get her input. In the end, she

1141
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 3: said she wants to support me in whatever I do

1142
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 3: and to see me happy. That was the main thing

1143
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 3: for her my happiness. I felt really good to have

1144
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 3: that support. I can't say that talking about everything that

1145
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 3: happened didn't bring up the anger and sadness I felt

1146
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 3: at first, which leads me to my next homework. I

1147
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 3: was able to write my husband the letter about what

1148
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 3: I needed from the first betrayal to help me heal

1149
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 3: and show me he was willing to put in the

1150
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 3: efforts to repair our marriage. I would be lying if

1151
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 3: I said that letter was not emotional to write. I

1152
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:04,800
Speaker 3: was very emotional. I cried, I reflected, and I got sad.

1153
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 3: I was sad because guy, you were right, these are

1154
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 3: still things I need now, and I'm not sure that

1155
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 3: I will get them. I can only hope that he

1156
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 3: reads a letter, absorb it, and learn from it. After

1157
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 3: I wrote that, I went straight into the list of

1158
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 3: wise I was already very epotionial at that point, so

1159
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 3: I thought why not Right looking at the list, I

1160
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 3: thought to myself, it's amazing what one person can put

1161
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,959
Speaker 3: up with, and I asked myself, how much more would

1162
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 3: I be willing to go through to realize that I

1163
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 3: deserve honesty and fidelity. Laurie, you would be very proud

1164
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 3: that I talked to my sister daily. I talked to

1165
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 3: her in the car after listening to a song that

1166
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 3: made me sad. I talked to her at bedtime to

1167
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 3: analyze my feelings for that day, especially if I had

1168
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 3: an interaction negative or otherwise with my husband. I decided

1169
01:05:54,440 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 3: to journal. My therapist actually suggested that it'd be good

1170
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 3: to write down my feelings, so I decided I was

1171
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 3: going to write to my sister in my journal. I

1172
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 3: have laughed and cried with my sister, and I am

1173
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 3: hopeful that she is going to stick around for a while.

1174
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 3: The last and final homework was to talk to a

1175
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 3: lawyer for information to help with the fear of uncertainty.

1176
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 3: I have reached out and had to fill out a

1177
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 3: questionnaire before they called, and I was able to do that.

1178
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 3: I'm just waiting for the phone call. In the meantime,

1179
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 3: they did send me information regarding what to look forward

1180
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 3: to if that was to be my decision, and that

1181
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:33,919
Speaker 3: list was a little scary, but overall hopeful. I want

1182
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 3: to thank you both for this time and for this experience.

1183
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 3: I have learned so much about myself, and I'm thankful

1184
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 3: for all your advice and kind words. Hopeful that I

1185
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 3: will continue to heal and focus on the things that

1186
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 3: I like to do. For myself, as my therapist says,

1187
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 3: that is our goal. It's really time to take care

1188
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 3: of myself and I look forward to giving you both

1189
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 3: an update in the future. Thank you again.

1190
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 2: So we gave Amanda a lot of tasks and all

1191
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 2: of them had the same purpose, which is to break

1192
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 2: through the denial and to have accountability there. I'm really

1193
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 2: glad she spoke to her friend. Her friend hadn't been

1194
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 2: through this situation, and the friend was empathetic and she

1195
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 2: validated her feelings and she wants to follow up. So

1196
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 2: I think that is great because I do think that

1197
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 2: that will help Amanda be accountable.

1198
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And she said that talking to her

1199
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: friend brought up some anger and sadness, which is actually

1200
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 1: a good thing because Amanda has not been in touch

1201
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 1: enough with her anger and sadness. So I think when

1202
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 1: you're talking to somebody else, you see yourself reflected back

1203
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: in a way that when she's all alone and she's

1204
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 1: holding this by herself, she's not able to get in

1205
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 1: touch with those feelings that are so important in order

1206
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 1: for her to really get what she wants and needs.

1207
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 2: And these are the appropriate feelings to have when you're

1208
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 2: talking about what happened. And I'm always glad when I

1209
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 2: hear someone say I spoke about things which are very

1210
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 2: upsetting and very angering, that they actually got upset and angry.

1211
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 2: That's appropriate. That's what you should feel. If you don't

1212
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 2: feel that at this stage when you're talking about it,

1213
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 2: then that is the denial. So it was very good

1214
01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:14,440
Speaker 2: to hear that she pierced through it.

1215
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: I also like that she did write that letter to

1216
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: her husband, and it sounds like she was very detailed

1217
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: in getting in touch with what she would have needed

1218
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 1: then and as she said, what she still needs now,

1219
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,719
Speaker 1: and she said she got very emotional, she got sad.

1220
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 1: That's good breaking through the denial. The one thing she

1221
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 1: did say is that she did give it to her

1222
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 1: husband and she hopes he learns from it. And again

1223
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 1: that's where I think her denial comes back. I don't

1224
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: have a lot of hope that he's going to learn

1225
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 1: from this. He might be on his best behavior for

1226
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: a little while in order to get her back, but

1227
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: he really needs to do everything that she says in

1228
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 1: that letter, and not once but consistently every day if

1229
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:01,760
Speaker 1: he is really going to make true change. I just

1230
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 1: want her to hold on to the fact that it's

1231
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: not about what he does or doesn't do, because he

1232
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,599
Speaker 1: either is going to do this consistently or he isn't.

1233
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 1: But it's the fact that she is now clear about

1234
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:13,200
Speaker 1: what her line in the sand is.

1235
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 2: And the complimentary part of the letter was the list

1236
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 2: of lies, because the letter is what she needs, and

1237
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 2: the list of lies was and this is what you've

1238
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 2: been getting so far. And she said that when she

1239
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 2: looked at that, her feeling was, Wow, it's amazing what

1240
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 2: one person will tolerate, and also like, how much more

1241
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 2: am I willing to tolerate? That's exactly what we wanted

1242
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 2: her to get out of that, that she would look

1243
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 2: at this list and go, my goodness, it's all of this.

1244
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 2: And really, I hope that how much more was a

1245
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:45,639
Speaker 2: rhetorical question because really how much more?

1246
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 1: Yes, it sounded rhetorical, how much more can I take?

1247
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 1: Meaning she's really getting clear that there isn't much more

1248
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 1: that she can take. If anything, I'm.

1249
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:58,520
Speaker 2: Also glad she really took to talking to this imaginary

1250
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 2: sister that we as signed her during this session, because

1251
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 2: it is so valuable to imagine someone who's very close

1252
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 2: and who's there by your side, because ideally, that's the

1253
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 2: person that will get you most and that has your

1254
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 2: back the most. She didn't have that, so she had

1255
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,560
Speaker 2: to invent it and imagine it, and she really incorporated

1256
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 2: it into her life, not just talking to her sister,

1257
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 2: but even in her journal journaling to the sister. I

1258
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 2: think it's such a great use of that device because

1259
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 2: that's the device through which I hope she'll learn self compassion.

1260
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 1: We talked in the session about how she replicated her

1261
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 1: childhood situation in her present situation. She was all alone,

1262
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: and it sounds like she really connected with that idea

1263
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 1: of having that person, having someone there or she can

1264
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 1: be completely open and vulnerable and honest and feel supported.

1265
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 1: And going back to the accountability and the denial, have

1266
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,599
Speaker 1: that other person there to say, hey, you deserve better,

1267
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:00,759
Speaker 1: this is not okay.

1268
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 2: And all of that is true with the lawyer as well.

1269
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 2: The lawyer is for all those things as well, for

1270
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 2: the accountability. To get a realistic read, it sounds like

1271
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 2: she did all those steps. She's waiting to hear from them.

1272
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 1: I was very impressed that she called the lawyer and

1273
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 1: filled out the forms just in that week since we

1274
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,839
Speaker 1: had the session. She said it was scary but hopeful,

1275
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 1: And I was so glad to hear that it felt

1276
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 1: hopeful to her, because we know what her fears are,

1277
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:29,800
Speaker 1: and I think just getting the information makes her see

1278
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:32,599
Speaker 1: that this is really possible, This is not as scary

1279
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 1: as I thought it would be. And I'm glad that

1280
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 1: she feels some degree of hope for a better future

1281
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: in having contacted the lawyer.

1282
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 2: And that's what we're trying to do here. We're trying

1283
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:45,360
Speaker 2: to get you, Amanda, to pay more attention to yourself,

1284
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:48,840
Speaker 2: to your feelings, to your needs. And I think you've

1285
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 2: done such a great, great job, and I'm so glad

1286
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 2: that your therapist is on board. So now it's not

1287
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty therapists plus Laurie and I, it's

1288
01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty one. You have an army behind you, Amanda.

1289
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 2: So I really hope that helps you move forward and

1290
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:04,440
Speaker 2: find happiness.

1291
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 1: Next week, a woman whose whirlwind romance led to an

1292
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: unexpected pregnancy and subsequent abortion wonders how to let go

1293
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 1: of her resentment of her partner.

1294
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 3: The depression was actually a defining factor and why he

1295
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:21,680
Speaker 3: wanted me to get another abortion. He felt like I

1296
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 3: was not emotionally capable of taking care of a child.

1297
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 3: That was the exact thing he said to me, and

1298
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:29,880
Speaker 3: that really stuck with me. Maybe he's right.

1299
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1300
01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 1: free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help

1301
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 1: support to your therapists by telling your friends about it

1302
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:42,040
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1303
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:43,439
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1304
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1305
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 2: email Us at Loriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive

1306
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 2: producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher.

1307
01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 2: Additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Kate Matty. Our

1308
01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:04,759
Speaker 2: intern is Ananna Doherty and special thanks to our podcast

1309
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see you

1310
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deo Therapist is a production of

1311
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:12,360
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1312
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:19,599
Speaker 5: Fish Food