1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,159 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. In nineteen sixty one, 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: the new President John F. Kennedy inherited an ill conceived, 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: poorly executed invasion of Cuba that failed miserably and set 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: in motion the events that put the US and the 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Sivie Union on a collision course that nearly started a 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: war that would have enveloped and destroyed much of the world. 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: In his new book The Shadow of War, a novel 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: of the Cuban Missile Crisis, New York Times bestselling author 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: Jeff Sherah brings to life the many threads that lead 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: to the building crisis between the Soviet Union and the 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: United States, from the Russian engineer with the near impossible 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: task of building the missilane facilities, to the US Navy 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: commanders whose ships are sent to quarantine Cuba, to the 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev, desperately trying to maintain a balancing 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: act between the conflicting demands of powerful forces. To the 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: Kennedy brothers, Bobby and JFK who can't allow Russia to 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: put nuclear missiles in Cuba or appear weak in confronting Krushchev, 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: but keenly understand how close they are dancing to the 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: Edge of War here to discuss his new book. I 20 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: am really pleased to welcome my guest, Jeff Sheriff. He 21 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: is the award winning New York Times, USA Today, Wall 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: Street Journal, Publishers Weekly best selling author of seventeen novels, 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: including Rise to Rebellion and The Rising Tide, as well 24 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: as Gods in Generals and The Last Full Measure. Jeff, 25 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: welcome and thank you for joining me on Newtsworld. 26 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 27 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: Before we get into the book, I want to ask 28 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: one general question you've brilliantly covered his Hols series. Was 29 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: what led you to become such a focused novelist and 30 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: in many ways to capture the chronology the stories that 31 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: really become a remarkable introduction to American history just by 32 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: reading the sequencing of your books. What led you to 33 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: do that? 34 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: Well, it started with my father has started with a 35 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: book called The Killer Angels, which a lot of people 36 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: are familiar with. It's a book that is fifty years 37 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: old this year. It's the story of the Battle of Gettysburg. 38 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: What The Killer Angels is not is the history of 39 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: the Battle of Gettysburg. It's a story told from four 40 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: different points of view, so it's a novel by definition. 41 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: The book won a Pulitzerprise. It was never successful in 42 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 2: my father's lifetime. It's enormously successful now. But that template 43 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: what he invented with the idea of moving you through 44 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: the timeline through the points of view of different characters. 45 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: I mean, nobody had ever done that before because he's 46 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: putting you in the heads of real people and significant 47 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: real people Robert E. Lee and Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and 48 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: so forth, and saw on that you better get it 49 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: right because people care about these characters. But he took 50 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: that chance. It worked, and you know, because he died early. 51 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: He died young, he was only fifty nine. I sort 52 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: of stepped into that and really had no idea how 53 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: this would turn out. But I think more than the event, 54 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: it's not just about war. I mean, I'm not a 55 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: war author. I've tried to actually move away from that 56 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: a little bit. It's about the characters. It's about the 57 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: people and when you find interesting characters. I mean, I 58 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: went back after doing Civil War, I went back to 59 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 2: the American Revolution having no idea. Am I going to 60 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: find interesting people? Is this going to be a subject 61 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: that's going to be fun to write, and it was. 62 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: I mean, you start talking about Benjamin Franklin and John 63 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: Adams and you know, Charles Cornwallace on the other side, 64 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: You've got a story there. And that's what draws me 65 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: to every book I've done, is I look for the 66 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: characters first. Who's going to tell this story? Who will 67 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: you be interested in so you'll want to read the book. 68 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: That's carried me through every book to this point. 69 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: How much research does that take? 70 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: Oh enormous. The research is the greater part of it. 71 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: I mean, as I've said many times, when you're putting 72 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: words in the mouths of significant historical characters, they better 73 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: be the right words, because you can't say, oh, I 74 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: don't want to hear oh, Dwight eisenhowerd never would have 75 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: said that. George Washington never would have said that that's 76 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: what I hear. That means I'm not doing my job. 77 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: So the research, it actually takes more time to research 78 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: the book than it does to write it than it 79 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: does to write the manuscript. 80 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: Your new book, The Shadow of War, is about the 81 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: Cuban missile crisis, and you know there's recently been news 82 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: about a group of Russian Navy ships, including a nuclear 83 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: powered submarine, arriving in Cuba. Given the background of this book, 84 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: what did you make of that? 85 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: It's not a good thing. I know that I try 86 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: to look at it from both points of view, from 87 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 2: the Kennedy brothers and the American Navy officer and so 88 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: forth to the other side. I've got krus Jeff's memoirs 89 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: where he talks about all of this stuff, and when 90 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: you look at it from both sides, you realize that 91 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: these are all human beings. We were taught when I 92 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: was a kid. Khrushcheff is the bad guy. He's evil, 93 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: He's really not. He's a grandfather, he's got a son. 94 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 2: He's just looking out for what he thinks is the 95 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: best thing he can do for the Soviet Union. Now, 96 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 2: what's happening today. I don't know that we can say that. 97 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 2: Maybe in hindsight, years down the road, we can look 98 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 2: back and say, well, you know, Putin's doing the right thing, 99 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: or Putin's doing what he needs to do. It's kind 100 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 2: of hard to think that way right now. All it 101 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: is now is frightening. 102 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: When you look at all this, I think it's fascinating. 103 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: That Kennedy arrives brand new young president, and the CIA 104 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: had been given permission by Eisenhower to develop a program 105 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: to liberate Cuba, partly based on a complete misunderstanding of 106 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: where the Cuban people were, and that they had this expectation. 107 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: The anti Castrow people who had fled to Miami were 108 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: by definition convinced that Castro was evil and that therefore 109 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: the Cuban people would want to throw him out. In 110 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: a way, the CIA was developing a project which required 111 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:27,799 Speaker 1: the United States to provide air superiority and offshore naval gunfire, 112 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: and required the Cuban people would actually rise up in 113 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: rebellion when they saw the opportunity. Describe how wrong that was. 114 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: It is probably the biggest comedy of errors, unfortunate errors 115 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: in our history. One of the things that the CIA 116 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: does they act very territorial about it. This is their 117 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 2: plan and they don't want anybody interfering, especially the US military. 118 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 2: So the military could have provided them with all kinds 119 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: of information, logistics power. I mean, they could have done 120 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: all sorts of things. But the CIA just was so 121 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: secretive that when they went into this, it was like 122 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 2: having one hand tied behind their back. They just completely 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: fell on their face. And you've got fourteen hundred Cuban 124 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: immigrats who make the invasion into the Bay of Pigs, 125 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: and I think eleven hundred of them are captured, some 126 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: of them are killed, some of few escape, But I 127 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: mean it's about as big a disaster for the US prestige. 128 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: Because this is where the phrase plausible deniability comes from. 129 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: You know, Kennedy is told by the CIA that if 130 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: anything happens, don't worry about it, because there's so many 131 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: layers of secrecy that he won't be blamed for any 132 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: of this. The United States won't be blamed, will have 133 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: plausible deniability. It doesn't work, and so Kennedy has to 134 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: sort of grovel a little bit before the press on 135 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: the media and say, look, you know, this was my fault. 136 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: He's not happy about that leads to a lot of 137 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: things after that. 138 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: Part of it is that he sort of eliminates to 139 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: senior leadership with the CIA h immediately. 140 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: Oh yes, he actually makes the point was a quote 141 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: in the book where he makes a point that he 142 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: wants to go over to the CIA office with a 143 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: board with a two x four and wreck the place. 144 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: Yea he's not happy, and. 145 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: This is part of the very beginning of his administration. 146 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: And then he ends up meeting with Khrushchev in Vienna 147 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: and Kennedy tries to be reasonable and Khrushcheff interprets that 148 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: as weakness. 149 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: Well, and Krushcheff also treats him like a little boy. 150 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: Khrushcheff has very little respect for Kennedy because, first of all, 151 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: the only thing he knows about Kennedy is the bay 152 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 2: of pigs, the problem. So Khrushcheff and he's sort of 153 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: the old man here and he's the one in the 154 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 2: cat bird seat. So he dictates to Kennedy how this 155 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: meeting is going to go. Kennedy's got all these grand 156 00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: ideas about how he's going to go there and talk 157 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: about principles and ideals and all this stuff, and Khushief 158 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: wants nothing to do with that. And so Kennedy feels 159 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 2: pretty much like he's been tacked on the head like 160 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: a little boy when he goes home, and he's embarrassed 161 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: by that. It's not a positive experience to Kennedy, certainly, 162 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: But at. 163 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: The same time, I always thought it was very striking 164 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: that he had the self awareness to admit to himself 165 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: that he had failed. 166 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, I mean, I think his ego doesn't get 167 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,479 Speaker 2: in the way. And when he comes home from Vienna, 168 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: he very much is aware that he needs to beef up, 169 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: he needs to strengthen up, that he is the new 170 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 2: kid on the block, and he doesn't know all of 171 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: the ins and outs of FIGN diplomacy and so forth, 172 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: and he needs to get better at it. And a 173 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: year later he does get better at it. 174 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: One of the things that's very striking in your book 175 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: is the central role that Bobby Kennedy plays. You really 176 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: make clear that they're almost inseparable, and that President Kennedy 177 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: relies on his brother far more than anybody else. 178 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: Well, it's logical that after Bay of Pigs and after 179 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 2: the CIA lets him down and he doesn't know who 180 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: he can trust, that the one person that JFK can 181 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: trust more than anybody in the world is his brother, 182 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: and he takes full advantage of that. I used Bobby 183 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 2: Kennedy as the point of view when we're dealing with 184 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: the ExCom, the committee that JFK has to sort of 185 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 2: analyze what's going on. I use Bobby because I thought, 186 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 2: rather than being inside the JFK's head, which is complicated. 187 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: There's a lot of things going on with him that 188 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: make it tough to use him as a character. But 189 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: Bobby's dealing with civil rights. I mean, he's the attorney general, 190 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: you know, so he's got other things going on, and 191 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: I wanted to give that perspective on the time we're 192 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: talking about that there's a lot more happening here than 193 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: just human missile crisis. 194 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: You get a sense of how much this absorbs the 195 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: two of them as the crisis builds and reshapes their 196 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: entire schedule and their entire focus in a way that's 197 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: really remarkable. 198 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: I don't know how this would have turned out if 199 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 2: they didn't have each other. They needed each other. And 200 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: you have Bobby's take on some of the people advising 201 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: the president, and that takes and sometimes conflicts with what's 202 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 2: happening with the president. But that insight is incredibly important 203 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 2: to JFK. He needs that other pair of eyes and 204 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: the other pair of ears listening to what's happening. The 205 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: other thing too. The xcom meetings, which are about fifteen 206 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: guys typically, and it varies, the number varies, but they 207 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 2: meet once a day, twice a day as the crisis 208 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: gets worse, and Bobby's there. Bobby's in the middle of that. 209 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: JFK is not. He purposely stays away from most of 210 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: the ExCom meetings because he doesn't want to be the 211 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: intimidating force. He doesn't want to be the guy who 212 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: makes all the decisions sitting right they are looking at you. 213 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 2: He wants to know everybody's point of view, So he's 214 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: got Bobby sort of paying attention to that. 215 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: Who actually ran the meetings. 216 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 2: Most of the time it was Dean Rusk, I mean, 217 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 2: his Secretary of State occasionally and I don't know of 218 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: any time that Rusk wasn't there, But occasionally it's Robert McNamara. 219 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: So it sort of makes sense. These are the senior 220 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: members of the cabinet and they pretty much take charge 221 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: of that. 222 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: I was impressed as a Georgian that you sort of 223 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: resurrect Dean rush and somebody who's really worth respecting and 224 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: who really, in his own quiet, methodical way, delivered in 225 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: some very important ways. 226 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: Well. I think what has happened to Dean Rusk over 227 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: the years is because as you say, he's quiet and methodical, 228 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 2: people mistake that for being sort of a zero. I 229 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: mean for just not doing anything, for having no point 230 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: of view, no strength, That is not the case. He's 231 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 2: a very important figure and actually as a Secretary of State, 232 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: he's exactly what you want for a Secretary of State. 233 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: You want somebody who can have intelligent conversations without streaming 234 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 2: and yelling anywhere in the world, and I mean that 235 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: definitely applies to us. 236 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: You capture a one point in here, the reach of 237 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: the State Department when it's really working, and the number 238 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: of countries that can touch, the amount of can get done, 239 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: which it doesn't do often, but when it does is 240 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: pretty dark impressive. 241 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 2: Well, you've got the Organization of American States, which is 242 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: Latin America, and it's really important for us to get 243 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: Latin America to back us up to approve what we're doing. 244 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 2: And it's Rusk who goes and gives them a talk, 245 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: sits down with the meeting of I think there's twenty 246 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: one of them all together, and gets the votes. You 247 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: know that he needs to approve what we're doing so 248 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: that he can go to the UN and say the 249 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: OAS is behind us, which is critically important. So I mean, 250 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: there's a good example of what Rusk did and did well. 251 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: Why do you think Khrushchev decided on a gamble on 252 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: this scale. 253 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 2: I think there's a scene in the book where Khrushchev's 254 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: walking with his wife. She's not his wife, they're not married, 255 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: but they've been together for forty years. But he's walking through 256 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: his vacation home on the Black Sea, and they're just 257 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: strolling along the edge of the water and he stops 258 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: and he looks out across the sea and he says, 259 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: you realize, over there it's Turkey, and right now there 260 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: are missiles over there aimed at me. And he says, 261 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: it's perfectly reasonable to the Russians that they put missiles 262 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: in Cuba and return the favor, you know, and why not. 263 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to argue that that's a bad idea, 264 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 2: but of course the Kennedy's are in a situation where 265 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: they have to argue it's a bad idea. As you 266 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: said before, to show strength. 267 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: This is very hypothetical, and you are judgment how would 268 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: the world have been different if the US had allowed 269 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: the missiles to be in Cuba. 270 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: The problem with allowing that is all it takes. And 271 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: this is true on our side too. All it takes 272 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: is one hothead. All it takes is the wrong guy 273 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: who takes power. Unlike the United States, where we have 274 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: elections every four years, in Russia, it's nothing like that. 275 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: It's always a power struggle. Khrushcheff comes to power when 276 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: Stalin dies because he's the most powerful guy who can 277 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: garner all of that behind him. But when Krushchef is gone, 278 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: who comes next? We don't know. We have no idea. 279 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: The Russians don't know, and so the fear is that 280 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: you get a guy who is bluster and who is 281 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: a little more aggressive and maybe listens to the hawks 282 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: that are in the Kremlin, because there's one in this 283 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: story who wants Khrushchef pushing him. Launch the missiles. Let's go. 284 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: And we have one on our side, Curtis la May 285 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: and the Air Force secretary who's telling Kennedy launch the missiles. 286 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: We don't need that, you know, we don't need that 287 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: kind of a voice. But how do we know what's 288 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: going to happen. The other variable is Castro. Who knows 289 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: what Castro's going to do. The Russians can't stand him. 290 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: They learn very quickly that Castro can't keep his mouth shut. 291 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: You know, he shoots his mouth off about what's happening 292 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: in Cuba. The Spanish language newspapers in Miami. You're picking 293 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: this up, going on, what do you know about this? 294 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: There's a lot of variables, and I'd like to think 295 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 2: the world has a certain amount of sanity. Maybe this 296 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: is showing, you know, it's potential that it doesn't. 297 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: One of the most important sub stories is that the 298 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: Russians had decided that Bobby Kennedy could in fact be 299 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: a back door to the president, and so you have 300 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: a very serious effort by the Russians to reach out 301 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: to Bobby and the community kate back and forth through Bobby. 302 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: You capture this very very well, but it's really one 303 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: of those amazing moments where if that had not worked, 304 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: we might have drifted much closer to war. 305 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: Oh definitely. What Bobby Kennedy does, he's sort of no 306 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: nonsense in the way he speaks, but he also understands diplomacy. 307 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: He understands what you can say and if you say this, 308 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: it means one thing. If you say that, it means 309 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: something else. So he knows how to be cagy with 310 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: the Russian ambassador. There's a Russian spy who this is 311 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 2: all true, A Russian spy who makes contact with him 312 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 2: as a back door to see sort of unofficially, can 313 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 2: we talk about this in a whole different way than 314 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: what JFK can do. To me, that's the most fun 315 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,400 Speaker 2: part of the story is to see how that negotiation 316 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: played out, because it diffused the entire crisis. 317 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: You have one scene there that had never heard of, 318 00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: and that's where the Russian submarine commander is seriously considering 319 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: using a nuclear torpedo and is ordered not to buy 320 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: his flatilla commander. But it's a very tense scene. I 321 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: candidly did not know that happened. 322 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that scene, and I heard about that 323 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: a few years ago, and then it was like, you 324 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: blow it off because it sounds too apocryphal. It sounds 325 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: like that's just a little too much Hollywood there, But 326 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: in fact it's true. And the commodore on the submarine 327 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 2: with him, they're three senior officers on the submarine. All 328 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 2: three of them have to agree before you can launch. 329 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: The reason the captain wants to launch, he's not just 330 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: a hotthead. They're trying to reach their home base on 331 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: the radio and they get no response, and they keep 332 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 2: trying and they get no response, and the captain convinces 333 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: himself the war has started. The reason we're not hearing 334 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: from them, they're gone. So that's what he makes the decision. 335 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: But of course the cooler head on the ship, the commodore, says, 336 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: you don't know that it's possible. If you launch on 337 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: nuclear torpedo, you're going to start the war, going to 338 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: start the war. We're trying to make sure it doesn't happen, 339 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 2: and he refuses to let the captain launch the torpedo. Now, 340 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 2: in all of this, that may be the biggest what if. 341 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: What if he had launched because of what he would 342 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 2: have done is taken out two or three American shifts 343 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: at one time and started the war. That's all there 344 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: is to it. So that's probably as close as we can. 345 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: Did that show up in somebody's memoir? How did that 346 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: leak out? 347 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: I think the commodore himself wrote his own take on it, 348 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 2: but it's in several comprehensive histories and some of the 349 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: memoirs from that. Most of what I read in these 350 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 2: kinds of stories are memoirs, the accounts of the people 351 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 2: who were there, It does me very little good to read, 352 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: for example, a modern biography, because you get the biographers take. 353 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 2: I need to hear the voices. I need to get 354 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: back to the character that. 355 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: One sequence was worth the entire book because I had 356 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: never heard about it. And you're exactly right. If they 357 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: commandant had voted the other way, they would have started 358 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: a war. Now, how certain are you that had the 359 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: war started, it would have gone nuclear? If the war 360 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: had started, let's say that they had fired a nuclear 361 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: torpedo and taken out two or three American destroyers, how 362 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: certain are you that that would have escalated into a 363 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: genuine nuclear exchange. 364 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 2: I don't think it would have been avoidable, because, first 365 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: of all, the voices that are already pushing JFK to 366 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: engage to start this war would have just gotten that 367 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: much louder. Castro on the other side would have probably 368 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: had the same exact situation. I don't think you have 369 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: to respond. You have to respond in kind, or you 370 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: look weak, you look helpless. That everybody on the xcom 371 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 2: would have realized we're in it, this is it, and 372 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 2: hopefully we're all going to survive. 373 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: You don't dig into it directly, although you create an 374 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: environment for smart people to think about it. But it 375 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: does strike me that all of us are living in 376 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: a remarkably fragile world in which more and more countries 377 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: are getting more and more nuclear weapons, and that almost 378 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: nobody thinks seriously enough, how truly civilization ending such an 379 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: exchange would be. 380 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: Oh, I think civilization ending is probably understating it. I 381 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: think the idea of a winnable nuclear war which was 382 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: floated by the Joint chiefs back then, and they actually 383 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 2: said this is amazing. They said, well, we'll lose twenty 384 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 2: to forty million people, but if we obliterate the enemy, 385 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 2: then we've won the war. I mean, where that logic 386 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: comes from. I have no idea, and I can't imagine 387 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 2: anybody today is thinking that, because, as you say, there 388 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 2: are a lot more countries and a lot more nuclear 389 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: weapons around than there were before. And the frightening thing 390 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,479 Speaker 2: to me, I'm not as scared of somebody like Putin 391 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 2: as I am somebody in Iran or Pakistan or someplace 392 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: like that, or even Israel for that matter, who decides 393 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 2: to solve their problems by eliminating their enemy completely. What 394 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: does Washington do if Pakistan launches a nuclear missile against India. 395 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, does anybody know. I'm sure 396 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 2: somebody's talk about it, or in. 397 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: North Korea against South Korea. 398 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: Exactly. 399 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: One last thing about this book, and I want to 400 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: talk briefly about your other works, which are amazing. There's 401 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: a certain deliciousness that I can use that word to 402 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: the fact that the college teacher in the book is 403 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: really modeled on your father, and the young boy is 404 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 1: really modeled on you. Can you talk to us a 405 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: minute about because in that sense, this becomes a very 406 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: personal book about a thing you lived through. 407 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the first book I've done that. I'm 408 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: a character, first of all. That's one of the reasons 409 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: I wanted to write the book. In the first place 410 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 2: I lived in, I was there and I remember JFK 411 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 2: on TV given his speech. I remember the terror. I mean, 412 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: I remember the stupidity of the duck and cover in 413 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: the schools, when a teacher would tell you crawl under 414 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: the desk, we'll close the curtain and that'll protect us 415 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: in the case of nuclear bombs. The idiocy of that 416 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: is incredible. The guy down the street building the fallout shelter, 417 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: this concrete block thing box under the ground, and he's 418 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: got three kids, and they're going to all five of 419 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 2: them are going to sit in this thing that's probably 420 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 2: ten feet square with a lot of food, don't forget 421 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: the can opener. And how long do they have to 422 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: sit there? I remember this. At the time, they didn't 423 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 2: really talk about what do you do with your sewage 424 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: if you survive this nuclear salt? How many years do 425 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: you have to stay in that fallout shelter? Ten ten thousand? 426 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. I don't think anybody else either, 427 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: But all of that's going on, and of course it 428 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: just adds to the terror. And one of the reasons 429 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 2: I wrote this book maybe the driving reason. I want 430 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: young people, you know, not me, I was there. I 431 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: want people who weren't there to know just how close 432 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: we came and just how dangerous it can be. And 433 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: as you say, it's more dangerous today than it was then. 434 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: And people need to know that. I mean, people need 435 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 2: to know that that's a part of our history. 436 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: You did a great job. I recommend this book to everybody. 437 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: You've now done a whole series of introductions to the 438 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: American experience of war, and many of them are just astonishing. 439 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: I think your capture of the Civil War, I don't 440 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: think it had fully occurred to me how gruesome and 441 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: how hard the war had become by eighteen sixty four, 442 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: and the degree to which it really was beginning to 443 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: just grind down in terms of every level of people's behavior. 444 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: Well, it was a law of attrition. I mean, it 445 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: became a war of attrition. I mean the South particularly, 446 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 2: they're losing generals left and right. I mean you can't 447 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 2: just replace those people. And they're losing troops. I mean 448 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 2: Lee's army, Well it's shrinking, you know, more and more. 449 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: And it's interesting to me. I'm working on a novel 450 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: right now about Abraham Lincoln, and one of the things 451 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,239 Speaker 2: they talk about when the war starts is, well, it's 452 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 2: gonna last six months at the most, maybe ninety days, 453 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: maybe six weeks. That was the sort of consensus. Nobody 454 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 2: had any concept that four years later, the sheer butchery 455 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 2: of what took place, that's just not real. Nobody could 456 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 2: predict that. Robert E. Lee thought it was going to 457 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 2: last a year, and he was laughed at for being 458 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: such a pessimist. When you look at American history, if 459 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: you look at the best example of what we can 460 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 2: do to ourselves, the savagery that we can bring to 461 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: each other. Nothing exceeds the Civil War. It's horrifying, but 462 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 2: it's a part of us and it's something we need 463 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 2: to know. 464 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: Gone for Soldiers, your novel of the Mexican War, I 465 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: thought was the best general introduction to that war I 466 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: have ever read. 467 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: Thank You God for Soldiers, not the Mexican War. Most 468 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: people have no idea what that is. I mean, it's 469 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: not taught in the schools. And the cast of characters 470 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: because it's all those familiar names from the Civil War, 471 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 2: but they're much younger. They're all young lieutenants. They're on 472 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 2: the same side because they're fighting under Winfield Scott and 473 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: they're fighting against Santa Anna in Mexico. It's are all 474 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: great characters. I had so much fun writing that book. 475 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: You did a great job, and it's a very important 476 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: war for a lot of different reasons. Your point, of course, 477 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: which is it both begins to train the people who 478 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: will become the generals and of course, as a consequence 479 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: of only became a much bigger country. One other thing, though, 480 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: you've sort of diverted from your normal pattern when you 481 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: wrote The Old Lion, a novel of Theodore Roosevelt. What 482 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: drew you into that? 483 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: I had a conversation with my publisher that I was 484 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 2: getting a little bit burned out on war stories because 485 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 2: if you look at what I was working on was 486 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: the Pacific at World War Two, and when you start 487 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: getting into the island hopping campaign, every story sort of 488 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: is the same. I mean, there's a lot of redundancy there. 489 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 2: And I thought, you know, I want to take a 490 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: break from that. I want to do something different. And 491 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 2: again what I said before about characters, I love good characters, 492 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: and there is no better character in American history than 493 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: Teddy Roosevelt. Again, I had fun with that. He's complicated, 494 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: he's interesting, he's not perfect, and by modern standards, some 495 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: people dismiss him for his imperfections. I don't because of 496 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 2: what he accomplished, and he changed his country. He changed 497 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 2: so many things about this country, and he himself individually 498 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: was a remarkable man. It was great fun to write. 499 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: Then you have a huge talent for that. These things 500 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: I told you when we chatted before we started taping. 501 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: This was a particular thrill from me to have you on. 502 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm such an admirer of your father's work, and I'm 503 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: such an admirer of your work. I've sort of lived 504 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: with you now for almost the full generation of reading 505 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: everything you put out. I want to thank you for 506 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: joining me. Your new book, The Shadow of War, a 507 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: novel a Cuban Missile Crisis, is available now on Amazon 508 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: and in bookstores everywhere. This has been great fun talking 509 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: with you great. 510 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 2: I appreciate that I enjoyed it as well. 511 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Jeff Chery. You can get 512 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Shadow of War, 513 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: a Novel of the Cuban Missile Crisis on our show 514 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. Newt World is produced by 515 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: Gingers three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsei Sloan. 516 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 517 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 518 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: at Gingrishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope 519 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with 520 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 521 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld 522 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: can sign up for my three free weekly columns at 523 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: gingrishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This 524 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: is Newtsworld.