WEBVTT - The Department of Justice V Google Ads: Part 1 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:03.440 Also media. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:17.599 Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host edzit Charn. Yes, 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.000 and today I'm joined by Jason Kent, the CEO of 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.919 the Trade Association DC. And Jason, thank you for joining me. 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:27.960 Pleased to be here, Thanks for having me. 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.560 So Jason is joining us today and we'll be joining 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.280 us more regularly to talk through the massive antitrust trial 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:37.960 going on with Google, the second of them. Jason, why 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:40.199 don't you set the scene of what's going on? 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.479 Yeah? Sure, thanks Ed. Yeah, we just wrapped up getting 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.040 the opinion on the first trial, which was the search trial, 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:54.040 where Judge Meta decided an issued an opinion that Google 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.480 has a monopoly in search and a monopoly and search 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.480 text ads. So this is trial number two. It's going 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.480 to be starting on Monday the ninth in the Eastern 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.760 District of Virginia. And this one is focused on the 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.600 ad tech part of Google's business and everything related to it. 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:12.880 So how does that How is that different because a 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.480 lot of people see them kind of as one homogeneous entity. 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.640 Sure, yeah, I mean the advertising for people to understand, 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:24.160 the advertising business for digital has now become almost entirely 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.680 a live kind of auction marketplace. Where if you think 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.920 of all these ad units across the web, they are 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.840 being bought and sold in near real time to the 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:38.000 highest bidder. And Google as a company has both the 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.480 software and a lot of the data that powers the 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.480 decision making. And so if you think about kind of 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:46.880 on the buy side, a bunch of companies bidding on 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:50.920 advertising units that they want to own to get in 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.160 front of consumers, and on the other end, you've got 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.280 the owners of those units, whether it be publishers or 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.280 Google itself. Google is the largest player on both sides 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.640 of those transactions, and they also run most of the 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:03.440 auctions too. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:06.559 So what is happening in this trial? 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.760 So the Department of Justice started investing in Google back 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:17.760 in twenty eighteen, and they spent a few years doing it. 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.680 The state attorneys General, led by Texas filed a lawsuit 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.080 back at the end of twenty twenty saying that Google's 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.440 ad tech business violating I trust laws, and since then, 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:32.560 the Department of Justice filed its own lawsuit back in 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.920 January of twenty twenty three, so just eighteen months ago. 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.880 And they did it in Virginia, where it's kind of 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.200 known as the nickname is the Rocket docket because it 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.000 moves so fast, and so in less than eighteen months, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.400 this one's gone. It's gotten to the point where now 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.320 we're about to have a trial starting on Monday, and 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.120 they'll present their arguments to take about four weeks, and 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.920 the look the judge there, the district judge, will determine 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.560 an issue, our opinion on whether or not the various 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.639 charges that are in the complaint she agrees with them, 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:09.799 and and whether or not they'll be remedies for it. 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.560 And what are the judges roughly speaking. 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:18.000 The judge judge, what are the charges? Yes, that Google 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.160 has a monopoly and I believe three different areas of 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:26.960 the advertising supply chain. And so that's the software that 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:32.079 publishers use, that's the software that runs the auctions, and 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.400 that's the software on the buy side that's being used 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.000 to bid on the on the ads. And in those 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.520 areas that they've also abused that monopoly power. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.040 How have they been abusing it? Let's get into it, 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:47.920 get into it. Well, you know, let's let's see how 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:48.960 they're abusing I. 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.400 Think, I mean, I think one thing that's helpful and 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:57.080 and you know, fortunately and maybe unfortunately for Google, their 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.760 own employees and some of the discovery for the lawsuits 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.920 did a comparison to the stock market. When you think 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:07.400 about this kind of live marketplace, anybody that's all flashboys 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:11.560 and or read the book on high speed trading, this 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.280 is is that plus maybe even more intense. 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.960 And say a little bit about what that means for 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:17.599 those who might know. 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.760 Of sure, that means that if you think about these 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:25.479 advertising units that sit there across the web, that there 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.560 is incredibly high speed trading of those units that are 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:32.960 happening in milliseconds, meaning that you know, in a blink 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.600 of the eye, there are parties that are both bidding 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.760 on and then delivering on ad units based on a 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:44.920 whole range of targeting requirements and pricing, and then there's 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.039 rules around those auctions. And so if you think about 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.200 kind of the way a stock market works, which is 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.200 also happens and in real time, people are buying and 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.200 selling stock using machine, entirely using machines that have been 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:04.600 programmed to handle the bidding and the marketplace. Google is 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.560 doing that for the entire supply chain, both the buy 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.280 side and the cell side. And so you know, the 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.479 comparison that the Google employee made and also the Assistant 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.560 Attorney General did when they announced the lawsuit was to 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.760 the stock market as if Google, you know, was both buying, 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.600 was leading and on a majority of the software, both 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.000 for buying and for selling and for running the actual 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:27.920 auctions themselves. 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:30.800 And so what's happened so far? You've been so you're 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.480 quite close that you're about twenty minutes in the courthouse Rougher. 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.400 Maybe about twenty minutes. Like what else? There's been a 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.880 number of pre what they call pre trial motions for 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.919 a variety of things to kind of figure out the 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.120 rules of the road for the trial when it starts Monday. 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.360 Some of that's just logistics. Some of that's really important 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:48.560 in terms of like what evidence will be allowed and 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.080 not allowed, who will testify and not testify, et cetera. 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.760 So what have you actually witnessed so far, like what 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.160 you've been in a few of these pre trial motions? 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:03.440 Even yeah, I mean, well that's one thing. I just 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:08.240 start with the judge because this actually a little bit 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.599 in the weeds here. But this lawsuit originally start out 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.640 it was going to go before a jury of Americans 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.279 to make the decision. So you think about the just 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.839 Department having to explain this topic to the average American 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.839 that that changed a few months ago based on a 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.880 legal maneuver that Google did. And so now the judge 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.279 is going to be actually the one that will issue 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.560 the verdict and make the decision. And you know, my 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.680 observation is she is incredibly experienced. She's been a judge 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.680 for quite some time, and she's had some you know, 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:47.279 very very significant cases over her career, you know, involving 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.719 from al Qaeda terrorists on down to to you know, 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:58.360 nine to eleven related cases. So she's not intimidated at 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.960 all by anybody in the room, including Google for sure, 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.039 and so in that regard, you know, I'm very optimimistic. 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.120 She seems to only care about the law and justice, 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:09.680 which is what you want to see from a judge. 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.600 You know, Google, like with the Search trial, has the 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.080 best and the brightest attorneys that are out there. You know, 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.320 three or four firms working for them, and they've got 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.800 half the room full of their people. This is really 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:24.880 really important to them. The Just Department wants to break 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.680 up I mean, the outcome they want is they want 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.679 to break up Google, and so that's what this trial 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:30.280 is all about. 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:32.880 How do you think how do you see that chances? 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.400 You know, if you asked me, and I'm sure I 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.840 was on the record about this back a year ago, 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:40.800 I would have said that the chances for this one 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.160 were higher than the search the search lawsuit that they 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:48.240 just won. And so I also felt pretty optimistic about 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.920 the search lawsuits once they finished closing arguments, because I 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.120 thought they did a really good job explaining their case. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.640 This one, I think it's even more obvious going in, 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.760 I mean to put in real numbers around. I mean, 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:05.480 they they the just Department's analysis and their experts analysis 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:11.000 is that Google has over ninety percent of the software 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.360 that publishers use to serve the ads, and then they've 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.800 got over they've got ninety eight percent of the mobile queries. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.760 We learned that from the last decision. And so on 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:23.440 the buy side, they've got you know, almost you know, 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.280 ninety eight percent of the advertising demand that's coming through 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.680 from search ads. So like on both sides of the market, 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:32.880 they've you know, and then they get to write the rules. 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.000 So it's a problem. 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.320 And as far as the original allegations go, can you 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.679 kind of break those down at all and explain what 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.320 the what the specific things that you would consider the 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:47.640 most important parts of this trial. 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:54.199 Yeah, sure, you know that one that they took the 0:08:54.960 --> 0:09:00.719 market power that they had on the advertising demand side, 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.560 and that they used that in order to create market 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.920 power dominance, if you will, in other parts of the 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:13.200 supply chain. And so one that I think is really 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.200 important is that we now have a decision from the 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:20.120 other court on that dominance on the demand side. And 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.040 so you know, JUDGMENTA already did the work of saying, 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.280 you know, he believes that Google. You know, they proved 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.120 the case just part of the case that Google has 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:33.800 a monopoly in search and in search text ads and 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.800 that they abuse that. And so that decision is no 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:41.120 longer just allegations as it relates to Google, and this 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.920 case claims that they use that market power to to 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.000 create dominance elsewhere. And so they walk in I think 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.600 in a much better place based on the prior opinion 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:55.679 that came out in August. You know, second thing I'll 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.040 hit on is that they tied you know that to 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.320 other parts of the business. So the exchange in the 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:05.240 in the ad server business in order to so basically 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.560 to force people to use the other products. So as 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:12.120 an example, you know, the argument or the allegation is. 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:16.400 That you weren't able to get access to any of 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.880 that demand unless you use Google's addex product, right, And 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.480 so you know, the evidence looks pretty clear on that, 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.160 but they're gonna have to present that case, you know. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.600 I think a third area that hit on is that 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.760 that the market itself is properly defined. That's always important 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.400 for NIT trust trials in cases. And so this case 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.480 is all about something called open web display advertising, and 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:45.160 Google will try to to blur that line, but I 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:46.320 think that's also what's is. 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:47.800 Open web display advertizing? 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.080 Well, I guess it's easier to explain the way it's not. 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.680 And that's what that's what bothers Google is. You know, 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:56.559 it's not closed platforms. So it's not advertising on TikTok 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:01.800 or not advertising on Facebook. It's advertise that's available over 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:07.760 the web browser in which companies can participate in auctions 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.280 on the buy side or they can participate auctions on 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.760 the cell side. And you know, and those are auctions 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.080 that are happening for display advertising units on websites. 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:20.920 So it's a good time to actually take a step 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.800 back and ask how does Google make money from advertising? 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.880 What are their advertising units? Because you've mentioned there's the 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:30.240 bidding process. But where do we see Google advertising? 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.160 Well, they, you know, a majority of the advertising, and 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.760 it's become more and more over each year, is actually 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.360 on Google's own properties, so entertained out that's where they 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:42.640 make the most money because they don't have to share 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.760 it with anybody else, right, And so so you've got 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.079 the ads on Search, you've got the ads on Gmail, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.000 you've got the ads on YouTube. So it's on what 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:55.280 they call their owned and operated properties. And then also 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:59.360 Google serves ads across the rest of the web, and 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.800 that's where they get a lot of scale and a 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.440 lot of data. And then they take a percentage of 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.959 the action on the byside, percentage of the action cell side, 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.720 percentage of the action and the auctions, and that all 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.760 adds up so that they're taking you know, allegedly thirty 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:19.280 to thirty two percent of the revenue or just the 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.920 technology that's being used in order to serve those ads. 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.079 Does the suit suggest does it give any idea of 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:27.920 what the balance so that you said that most of 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.600 their advertising goes through their own properties, does it balance 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:32.920 that out? It's all? Does it explain? 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.439 Yeah, I think it's it's in there, and it's certainly 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.560 in their sec filings. You know, I think you know, 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.480 this gets to kind of one of the arguments I 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.160 think you'll hear Google make, and that certainly their their 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.560 proxies and kind of their advocates are making, is that 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.720 the part of their revenue that serves on other people's 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:58.920 properties on publisher sites is only about fifteen you know, 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.480 it's say fifteen percent or so of the revenue, and 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.360 it's declining the last couple of years, so it's not growing, 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:07.680 it's flat to declining. It's not that material. 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:09.760 That's the off property revenue. 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:11.040 That's off property revenue. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.400 That's very bad for them. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.160 But the common sense piece, well, yeah, but that's where 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:18.880 they also have the lower margin because they don't have 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.760 they have to share it with people. The common sense 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.120 piece is that, well, one, if that wasn't that important 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.319 to them, then they'd be offloading it, right because why 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.280 would you want to go get suited by the United 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.959 States j JUSTAHS Department and potentially broken up if it's 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:38.760 not that important to you. And then two that ignores 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.360 that's just the revenue piece. But I think it's important 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:43.439 to understand it that like and this will come out. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.840 I think in a lot of the documents that the 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:50.680 data that they get from those auctions and from serving 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.280 ads across the web and from tracking users across the web. 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:56.640 I mean, there's this important moment in time that will 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.960 come up in the trial. I believe we're in twenty sixteen. 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.840 Google merged all of the ad tech data they have, 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.240 with all the search data they have, with all the 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.720 location data they have, with all the Android data, and 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.839 all the Chrome browsing data into one single profile, which 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:14.640 they promised they wouldn't do, and they went ahead and 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.160 did it. And if you think about the value of 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.960 that data that underpins it, that's really important. 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.840 So when you say unites those profiles, is they have 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.600 a profile on you and me? Is it? Do we 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:28.160 just not know? 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.240 I mean we expect that they know whether it's a 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:36.800 synonymous indicator or a placeholder for that user, But they 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:42.920 know enough that it's this device which is attached to 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.200 a person, and I know all this other information about it. 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.240 Yeah, this person may resemble that because I see in 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:54.560 twenty sixteen they dumped a ban on PII personally identify 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.320 them information. But is this separate to that? Is it 0:14:57.920 --> 0:14:59.760 the combination of everything else. 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.880 That I mean, that's what the reporting was in twenty sixteen, 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.720 and that's what the evidence that's starting to bubble up was. 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.040 Was this they call it Project Narnia is what we 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.280 just learned it. But that they merged, they dropped their 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.720 ban on PII being merged with search. Juliet Anglin from 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.640 public and I think did the report and and so 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.040 that you know, that was removing the guardrails basically, and 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.080 at least in my mind, and I think that will 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:26.640 be a part of the evidence. 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:41.240 So within this, is there anything particularly surprising within the 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.080 first few Well, actually, let me take that back. I'm 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.280 sure there's surprising stuff, But what happens now? So we're 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.560 pushing this episode out on September ninth, the day of 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.240 the first trial. So what happens then and what happens 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:53.600 after that? 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.600 Yeah, So the first couple of weeks, the just Department 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.040 will present what they call their case in chief. It's there, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.240 you know, their evidence. So they're going to have a 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:08.200 slew of witnesses that have already been identified, both Google employees, 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:12.680 ex Google employees, you know, CEOs and top founders of 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.400 a lot of the competitive at tech companies, experts, et 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.880 cetera that you know probably have already been deposed and 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.600 will will now answer questions on the witness stand, and 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.400 they'll have a ton of exhibits that you know, we've 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.120 probably seen less than five percent of them, i'd say 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:33.560 at this point to prove their case, and Google have 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.840 a chance to ask questions too throughout, and then they'll 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.440 present their defense. I expect you'll take about four weeks total. 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.800 I think important things for people to know going into 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.160 the trial. You know I already covered that. I think 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.960 the judges is perfect for a case like this, so 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.480 that's very optimistic at this point. Also, I would say 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.040 it's very important to know that there was an important, 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:01.880 important hearing last week in which it's happened with multiple 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:06.520 lawsuits against Google, where Google guid in trouble for not 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:12.199 preserving documents. I was going to say, yeah, yeah, and 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.760 so Google at a point a number of years ago 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:21.080 issued a memo from their chief league officer and change 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.400 their systems so that any chat messages would by default 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.480 delete after twenty four hours, is the way it's been alleged, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:32.919 and unless the employee actually proactively turned on their history 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.920 and turned off that purging because they run her a 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:41.400 litigation hole. Then the evidence was lost, and so the judge, 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:46.320 the judge very much expressed her concern about this had 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.919 happened and that probably a lot of evidence had been 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:53.440 deleted and that throughout the trials she's going to have 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.239 to take that into account whenever Google sends somebody up 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:58.639 to this with a stand that she's going to have 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.000 to have her own informtays and whether or not this 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.240 is a reliable testimony and whether or not there's you know, 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.240 information and exhibits that were not available to her because 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.680 of this policy. That's like really bad for Google going 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:15.720 into a trial, you know, like there already well, I 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.880 think that you know, ultimately she could decide to infer 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.400 that what they call a verse inferences, She could basically 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.960 decide that that there has been evidence that's been purged 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.200 in her mind, and therefore therefore Google was trying to 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.560 hide stuff that would have been incriminating to them or 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:34.960 prove the case of this department. 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.400 So doesn't that weaken the case potentially on like appeal 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.040 if she does that a lot, or would it be 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:42.520 very carefully used? 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.800 It would probably be carefully used. I think, you know, 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.160 anderstanding off. Judge Meta had the same concern and decision 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.040 you know, coming out of the search opinion, but he 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.400 said that he didn't need it, you know, he didn't 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.840 actually need to rely on it, that he was going 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.919 to find against Google, that it would monopoly and abused 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.199 its power without it, So he didn't need to have 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.960 that intent. She says, the intent is really important a 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.159 case like this, So we'll see how she how heavily 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:10.240 she weighs on it. 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.199 At the end of the day. So on the ninth, 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.800 they are going the Homement of Justice will make their 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.040 first will begin making that case. 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.160 They will, they will. Yep. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.480 So has anything interesting come out yet as far as 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.600 the initial motion and have we seen any e any 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:30.679 of the exhibits provided in ad once. 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:32.840 Sure, Yeah, we've seen, I mean even their initial the 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.159 original complaint. We've seen and through reporting we've seen some 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.679 of the the evidence in details on a lot of 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:43.880 projects that Google had. This one's a lot of there's 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.119 a lot of code name projects which will make it 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.760 hard to keep up to, but keep up with. But 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.520 there's things like you know, Perot and Bernanki and all 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.359 these like fancy names Belle and they each have a 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:58.600 little clever story behind them. Jedi Jedi Blue. 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:03.560 And behind those fancy names are typically experiments, they would 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.920 call it. Where Google is testing making changes to its 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.880 auctions in order to drive some sort of outcome, whether 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:12.840 it be more revenue for Google, whether it be more 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:17.359 market power or more business for Google, you know, driving 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:19.760 more revenue to the publishers or the advertisers. Like it's 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.560 them playing with the auctions. 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.920 And so we've seen some of the details of those. 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:27.040 I think what we're going to see now is some 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:29.919 of the intent behind them and some of the communications 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:31.000 internally about them. 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.720 I'd be interested. So Jedi Blue, that was the collusion 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:36.000 with Facebook. 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.959 Right, that was the alleged collusion with Facebook. It's very 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:39.960 much still around. 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.640 Well I thought that that got kind of dismissed in Europe. 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:50.760 Yeah, so Google has made that communication argument through some 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:55.320 of their proxies. It actually was dismissed in the the state. 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.679 AGS had their own case I mentioned was filed at 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.359 the end of twenty twenty in the Eastern District, Texas, 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.600 which was then moved to New York Southern just New York, 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:07.280 and while it was there that was dismissed from the case. 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:11.080 I won't go into why or when that was accurate, 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:17.400 but it was that specific charge which had potential criminal 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:24.520 criminal implications for them was dismissed. That the complaint then 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.080 and the lawsuit then moved back to Texas for a 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:34.000 different reason, and that discovery was reopened up about four 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:38.080 months ago, i'd say, on Facebook. And it also led 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:42.240 to a deposition of Sudar Pakai, the CEO of Google, 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:44.359 because he has unique knowledge about that deal. 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:47.639 It also led and what was the deal. 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:54.320 The deal as alleged was that Google Jedi. Project Jedi was, 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:59.720 as we understand, it was Google's attempt to match or 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:03.280 have their version of what's called header bitting, which was 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:07.200 this coding layer at the top of a web page 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:09.920 that opened up auctions so that other parties could compete 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.000 and participate in auctions, live auctions. And it was a 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:16.600 threat to Google's business because it meant that a publisher 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.200 could could participate put on their header of their web 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:24.199 page this code which would allow them to open up 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.600 their auctions to outside parties, so it didn't have to 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:31.120 go through Google Jedi Blue. So if you think about 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.320 that as a threat to Google, Jedi Blue was a 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.800 way to keep to do a deal with Facebook, as alleged, 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:40.800 so that Facebook would not support header bitting, that Facebook 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.480 would instead not participate in header evading, which would be 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.760 bad for header bitting, and would instead, you know, exchange 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:50.159