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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. So,

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Speaker 1: as you may recall, on Monday's episode, which was just

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Speaker 1: two days ago, we featured musician in World War Two

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Speaker 1: Dutch resistant agent Frieda Bell and Fonte And that episode,

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Speaker 1: as we mentioned, was inspired by the team at the

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Speaker 1: Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh and they are amazing comic book

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Speaker 1: project Hutzpau. So today we have interviews with the people

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Speaker 1: at the Holocaust Center. Holly is the person who conducted

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Speaker 1: these interviews. It's with folks who worked on this comic

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Speaker 1: to talk about how the project works and how they

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Speaker 1: create each issue and what they're hoping readers will take

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Speaker 1: away from it. And you're gonna hear from three different

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Speaker 1: people today. The first of those is writer Bertie Willis.

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Speaker 1: She is an absolute delight and she wrote Frieda's story

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Speaker 1: for the upcoming edition of Hutzpau and the way that

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Speaker 1: she managed to get into the story is really lovely,

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Speaker 1: and she's going to talk about it. Bertie, will you

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Speaker 1: first tell us about who you are and you're writing

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Speaker 1: background a little bit, certainly so. My name is Bertie

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Speaker 1: Willis UM. I have been working in comics for oh

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Speaker 1: about eight years. I would say most of it has

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Speaker 1: been self published up until recently, UM, where I was

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Speaker 1: contracted to work on the most recent mini series comic

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Speaker 1: for Over the Garden Wall, which is a Cartoon Network property, UH,

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Speaker 1: and I did five issues of that. I am also

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Speaker 1: currently in the process of working on to two graphic novels.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately there's an NDA on both of them, so I

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Speaker 1: can't really talk much about them, as well as another

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Speaker 1: graphic novel for middle schoolers detailing another life of a

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Speaker 1: historical person UM. So I'm very excited about that. I

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Speaker 1: was thrilled when I was approached by Marcellen asked to

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Speaker 1: do just write at least one story for Footstile, and

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Speaker 1: then I consider myself very fortunate to have the privilege

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Speaker 1: to write too, and one of them to be about Frieda.

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Speaker 1: Frieda is amazing. She is. One thing that I noticed

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Speaker 1: when we prepped our episode about her biography is that

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Speaker 1: she is tricky because she's so immensely quotable, and she

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Speaker 1: had such a full life and there are so many

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Speaker 1: moments to talk about, and so many moments of her

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Speaker 1: life that she describes in really really picturesque detail. How

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Speaker 1: did you decide on your focus to tell part of

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Speaker 1: her story as a bigger, a small element in the

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Speaker 1: bigger Holocaust story. What I found that was easy to

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Speaker 1: connect Frieda and Frieda's life was her passion for music.

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Speaker 1: So I found that in incorporating different music terminology to

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Speaker 1: describe the events that happened in her life leading to

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Speaker 1: her with the Resistance and leaving Amsterdam and then coming

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Speaker 1: to America and being part of the Orange County Um

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Speaker 1: Symphonic Orchestra, that uh it just it was woven throughout

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Speaker 1: her entire life in what better ways than to use

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Speaker 1: music to describe someone who's so vibrant, that's so perfect.

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Speaker 1: I know there have been a lot of times, just

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Speaker 1: even working on our history show, where sometimes the material

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Speaker 1: gets just a little bit too emotionally heavy and we

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Speaker 1: need to step away for a little while. Uh do

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Speaker 1: you ever find it difficult to work with such serious

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Speaker 1: subject matter sometimes? I was trained as a history major,

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Speaker 1: so that was my degree. I find I'm able to

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Speaker 1: step back from the material as I don't want to

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Speaker 1: create some sort of bias, but that was in my training.

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Speaker 1: I think that with Frieda, knowing how much she was

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Speaker 1: sort of uh, she just had a very lighthearted way

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Speaker 1: of doing things and speaking about things that were often

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Speaker 1: so serious in any of the interviews that I've seen

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Speaker 1: that it was hard not to find that a little

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Speaker 1: infectious and to utilize that in the best way to

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Speaker 1: represent her. Yeah, she was an incredibly upbeat person, particularly

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Speaker 1: considering some of the difficult times she had. It's always

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Speaker 1: startling in a wonderful way to me to to see

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Speaker 1: interviews with her or to read transcripts of those interviews

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Speaker 1: where she's talking about very serious and sometimes dark things,

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Speaker 1: but she is oddly upbeat about it. Have you heard

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Speaker 1: the story about the viola di gamba, Yes, but we

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Speaker 1: did not put it in our podcast, So tell it please, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So she was and I forgot the orchestra, or I've

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Speaker 1: forgotten the the town in which she she found this paper,

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Speaker 1: but she had gotten an engagement and it was to

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Speaker 1: play cello, and she had written down that she played cello,

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Speaker 1: viola de gamba, and piano. And when the flyer or

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Speaker 1: the I suppose the article came out about what these

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Speaker 1: people would be playing in the orchestra. It said so

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Speaker 1: and so violin, uh freda bell and pante cello and

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Speaker 1: ziola de gamba piano, and and she found that so funny,

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Speaker 1: she said, as she wished she had saved the paper,

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Speaker 1: but she did not, But she said she had a

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Speaker 1: wonderful chuckle over it. And I just remember laughing very

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Speaker 1: hard at that interview while watching it, and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: she is just she just has a wonderful sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: I I she sounds like something like someone I would

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Speaker 1: have loved to have gotten to know. I had to

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Speaker 1: laugh because there are so many moments in her life

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Speaker 1: where she kind of mentions. And there's that great interview

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Speaker 1: in the documentary about her with her sister that says

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Speaker 1: the same, like her sister comments that like boys and

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Speaker 1: girls were both incredibly drawn to her, and then Frieda

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Speaker 1: comments at various points that like, she didn't ask for

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Speaker 1: people to constantly be hitting on her, but they always were.

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Speaker 1: But then watching her talk, I'm like, I completely understand

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Speaker 1: why everyone on the planet fell in love with you

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Speaker 1: when they met you. I completely get it. Oh, absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Here she is in her documentary saying, I just don't

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Speaker 1: know why people fell in love with me, and here

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Speaker 1: are seven more women saying, oh, Frieda, Frieda, Frieda Frieda.

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Speaker 1: She's incredibly lovable. She was. My particular favorite moment is

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Speaker 1: her talking about Henriette and how she almost out of

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Speaker 1: a world dance movie, goes in Henriette the very first

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Speaker 1: time they meet, and Henriette is like, why are you

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Speaker 1: Why do you stay? And she says because I love you,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, and I grabbed her and I said

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Speaker 1: because I love you, And I thought, oh goodness, if

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Speaker 1: that's not the most playboy thing I've heard, how wonderful? Right?

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Speaker 1: I was clapping and cheering just watching this documentary to

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Speaker 1: the part where my wife had to come in and say,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing? So just watching a woman do

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Speaker 1: her thing, dear, just watching she's she's really, i mean,

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Speaker 1: like charismatic in a way that is so hard to

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Speaker 1: describe because she's not particularly like she's very witty and

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Speaker 1: funny and like we said, like just great turn of phrase,

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Speaker 1: and so confident about who she is in her place

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Speaker 1: in the world. But she's not like one of those big,

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Speaker 1: like look at me showbody people. But she's just incredibly magnetic.

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Speaker 1: It's really astonishing. She really had this magnetic personality that

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Speaker 1: but also this very confident sense of self in the

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Speaker 1: way she seemed to hold herself. I think it was

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Speaker 1: the combination of the two that really drew people to her.

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Speaker 1: My last question for you about Freedom Story and about

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Speaker 1: this project in general, is why it is your biggest

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Speaker 1: wish for readers to take away from this project when

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Speaker 1: they close the comic and they walk away, What is

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Speaker 1: it that you hope comes out of the pages and

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Speaker 1: leaves with them. I think to understand that is more

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Speaker 1: than just stories. These are people, some people who survived

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust and people who didn't. But regardless, they are people,

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Speaker 1: and they are people that should be known and talked

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Speaker 1: about and understood that their lives were full of meaning

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Speaker 1: until until the Nazis invaded and took there, took everything away.

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Speaker 1: And to understand and have compassion and empathy for these people,

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Speaker 1: that's so beautiful. Next up, I got to talk to

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Speaker 1: Jackie Reese, who works in marketing and education for the

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Speaker 1: Holocaust Center. One of the awesome things about Jackie is

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Speaker 1: that she prepped a huge educator's guide for Hutzpa and Holly.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk to her about that in the course of

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Speaker 1: this interview, Jackie. First of all, will you just explain

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Speaker 1: to our listeners a little bit your role at the

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Speaker 1: Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh. Sure. So, I am the marketing

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Speaker 1: and education associate at the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh, which

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Speaker 1: means they were a lot of different hats, but within

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Speaker 1: the context of Lutzpaw, I'm obviously the person who puts

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Speaker 1: out information to the world about purchasing it and where

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Speaker 1: they can get it. I am also on the education side, uh.

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Speaker 1: I was the main person behind the Teacher's Resource Guide,

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Speaker 1: which is about a hundred and fifty page resource booklet

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Speaker 1: that we have available for educators on how to use

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Speaker 1: Clizpaw in their classroom. So it comes with a lot

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Speaker 1: of context building definitions, annotations, and five sample lesson plans.

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Speaker 1: So currently it's it's designed for the first three volumes,

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Speaker 1: but when we come out with volume four, I'll be

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Speaker 1: working on a send them to it to keep it

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Speaker 1: up to date. That resource is so fabulous. I have

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Speaker 1: looked through it and it's amazing. We'll link to it

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Speaker 1: in our show notes. One thing that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you about is that when you're dealing with the

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Speaker 1: community in the public. Maybe outside of education, how do

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Speaker 1: you build that bridge and how do you use, for example,

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Speaker 1: things like the comic but also other resources there at

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust Center to communicate some history that can be

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Speaker 1: very dark, but it's incredibly important to share with people. Sure, well,

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Speaker 1: I know you said outside of education. But one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I do also is when we do

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Speaker 1: teacher trainings, I have a lesson that I run with

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Speaker 1: teachers on how do we use comics in the classroom

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Speaker 1: and what are the Basically we go through one of

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Speaker 1: the stories and volume three Walter Bondinger's story, and there's

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Speaker 1: very little text in that story, so I use it

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Speaker 1: as a way to exemplify the fact that what's spoken,

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Speaker 1: what's unspoken, and what is it that we're getting through imagery?

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Speaker 1: And so my background is an art education and arts management.

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Speaker 1: Uh so this is like my whole sort of adult pieces.

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Speaker 1: Essentially is that we can use art in ways that

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Speaker 1: sometimes individual subject areas can't really cover. So the idea

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Speaker 1: of using art to convey the unconveyable, to feel the unfeelable.

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Speaker 1: We do a lot of arts programming here at the Center,

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Speaker 1: and we've noticed for certain that the exhibits and when

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Speaker 1: we do art screenings and film screenings and things like that,

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Speaker 1: it just reaches people in a way that no lecture

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Speaker 1: or lesson or any sort of traditional learning style is

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Speaker 1: going to reach them. Hutzpou, as you've mentioned, is about

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Speaker 1: to go into its fourth volume. Uh so you've done

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Speaker 1: three already. What has response been like to those initials three?

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Speaker 1: It's been awesome. So I came on board while they

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Speaker 1: were working on volume three, and I think just in

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Speaker 1: the time that I've seen volume three be out in

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Speaker 1: the world, we've been getting more and more awareness. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We We've started getting orders from not just across the

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Speaker 1: United States, but across the world. We we've gotten orders

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Speaker 1: from as far away as Australia. Uh. We've received contacts

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Speaker 1: from various organizations who would like to do some version

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Speaker 1: of Kutzpau in their communities, both local Holocaust stories in

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Speaker 1: different cities, but also other places that are doing things

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Speaker 1: that where they're talking about different topics and they want

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Speaker 1: to use what we call the Kutztow model to talk

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Speaker 1: about those difficult topics in a way that gives that

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Speaker 1: information to people in a way that they can absorb

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Speaker 1: it um and then just people. People really respond to it.

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Speaker 1: The kids. We we have kids here all the time

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Speaker 1: who like they idolize Marcel. So I'm excited you'll get

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Speaker 1: to talk to him that he's just a hero to

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Speaker 1: so many kids. And I've met so many grandparents who

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Speaker 1: are like, I have to buy this for my grandkid,

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Speaker 1: Like this is the best Christmas president I could get them. Um,

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Speaker 1: not a plug, but plug. And yeah, I think it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things where people think of it in

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Speaker 1: many ways is a youth tool, but it's something that

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Speaker 1: people of all ages can actually get behind. And I

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Speaker 1: would say just from sort of an outsider perspective because

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Speaker 1: I came in on three. Just seeing the way the

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Speaker 1: stories have evolved through the various volumes has been really incredible.

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Speaker 1: So one, you know, they were laying the groundwork too,

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Speaker 1: they were kind of pulling that together. Three was my favorite,

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Speaker 1: but now that I've been reading the scripts for four,

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Speaker 1: four is going to be the best one, I can

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Speaker 1: tell you. Uh, And the fourth one focuses entirely on women. Yes,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about that and

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Speaker 1: what lad you guys to make that decision? And also

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Speaker 1: just kind of how it's evolved over time. Sure. So

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of different thought processes behind that, one

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Speaker 1: of which being every year here at the Alocausts on

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Speaker 1: our Pittsburgh we do a different theme that we sort

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Speaker 1: of based our programs around the last year was women

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Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. Now, we picked that theme because men, women, children,

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Speaker 1: non binary, everybody who went through the Holocaust suffered, but

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Speaker 1: women had unique ways of suffering that differ from maybe

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Speaker 1: the male experience, just in terms of that their femininity

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Speaker 1: could be used against them and could also be a

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Speaker 1: tool of theirs to regain their humanity. So, uh, we

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Speaker 1: love the idea of using volume for to really hone

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Speaker 1: in on that theme and take it from more. I

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Speaker 1: would say this, this volume really kind of takes a

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Speaker 1: more personal approach than maybe any of the other ones

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Speaker 1: have more more intimate and emotional and and I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's really beautiful. Do you have a favorite of

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Speaker 1: the subjects that you guys ended up selecting for this volume, Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm a will buyas towards Frieda because that was one

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Speaker 1: I suggested. So she's also, as I discussed Bertie, incredibly

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Speaker 1: charming and appealing. Yes, absolutely, I'm I'm trying to think

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Speaker 1: through all of our topics, and I think Freedom might

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Speaker 1: have to be my favorite because just she she's so multifaceted,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, she she's part of the resistance,

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Speaker 1: and she you know, did not conform to gender norms

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Speaker 1: in a time where it would have been so much

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Speaker 1: easier just to do so. And she's also this groundbreaking

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Speaker 1: musician like she was. She was leading the way in

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Speaker 1: a time that it was not easy to do so,

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Speaker 1: and she did it with style and flare and a

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Speaker 1: sense of humor and how many what a hero. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would say she's probably my favorite. Yeah. I actually

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Speaker 1: feel like if you took away the war and all

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Speaker 1: of the impact that had on her life and all

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Speaker 1: of the amazing things she did with the Dutch Resistance,

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Speaker 1: she would still have a really heroic story. Yeah, someone

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Speaker 1: would still be featuring her superheroes of you know, the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century, or superheroes of music, Like she's just a superhero,

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Speaker 1: superheroes of lgbt Q plus community. Like she is just

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Speaker 1: a superhero in so many different ways that it's it's

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Speaker 1: awesome that that we get to feature her in this volume.

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Speaker 1: I also think she would just be a superhero style

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Speaker 1: she could like where whether she I've seen pictures of

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Speaker 1: her in like full suits but also in like gowns

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Speaker 1: downs that she describes as very plain, but on her

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Speaker 1: they look incredibly chic and beautiful. Absolutely, well, that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: I had seen her dress and more of a manly

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Speaker 1: style when I first read about her, so that was

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Speaker 1: sort of like the imagery I had of her, and

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Speaker 1: then I thought pictures of her dress letter on, Oh

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Speaker 1: my girl, she's just awesome. Yeah, she. I think it

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Speaker 1: kind of emanates just from what a confident person she was,

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Speaker 1: you know, anybody. Everybody looks better when they're confident, So

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Speaker 1: I think that was her big thing. Well, and I've

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Speaker 1: loved the idea of setting an example in a macro way,

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Speaker 1: we're setting an example of heroes and pots poal, but

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Speaker 1: on the micro level too, I think lots of women

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Speaker 1: could could do to to learn more confidence, and so

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Speaker 1: on just that level, she's a hero too, Jackie, what

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Speaker 1: is your like vision for the future of Hutzpau When

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Speaker 1: you think about what comes in volume five or six

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Speaker 1: or seven, which I know is hard because you're in

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Speaker 1: crunch time on four, But do you think to the

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Speaker 1: future and about what you might be able to do

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Speaker 1: with this comic absolutely, So I know Marcel has got

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Speaker 1: I want to say, nine volumes planned, and he already

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Speaker 1: knows what themes he wants to do for all of them.

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Speaker 1: So in that respect, you know, he's already ten steps

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Speaker 1: ahead of me in terms of imagination. But I definitely

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Speaker 1: have a lot of I would just love to see

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Speaker 1: more communities implementing kutz Pal into their until they're learning. UM.

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Speaker 1: I love the idea of we we talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about a Hutzpoal model and really building a out so

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Speaker 1: other communities have the tools that they need to tell

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Speaker 1: those stories in a way that is more accessible to people,

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Speaker 1: and I would I would just love for it to

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Speaker 1: be recognized not just for it's merit as a Holocaust

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Speaker 1: education tool, but just as as a wonderful comic. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Marcelle's got award winning artists on this thing. Marcel himself

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Speaker 1: is an impressive force, so it's I would love to

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Speaker 1: see it get recognitioned in that respect too. So that's

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Speaker 1: my edition. Our final interview is with Marcelle Walker, who

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Speaker 1: is in many ways the beating heart of this project.

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Speaker 1: You heard Jackie essentially refer to him as just an

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Speaker 1: idol of many kids in the area, so his segment

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Speaker 1: is going to be the longest of the three. The

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Speaker 1: segment really traces the project's whole history from the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: as well as Marcell's passion for the work that is

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Speaker 1: blazingly apparent. First, will you just to give us a

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Speaker 1: little bit of context, talk about who you are and

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Speaker 1: your work before you ever got to this comic, because

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Speaker 1: I know you're big into animation, very near and dear

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Speaker 1: to my heart. Uh, and you have worked on a

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Speaker 1: lot of other art projects, So will you talk about

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Speaker 1: those a little bit first? Sure? Sure, absolutely so. I'm

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Speaker 1: I've been making comics literally all my life. I knew

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Speaker 1: when I was six that this was gonna be my vocation. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And looking back on it, it's it's a little strange

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Speaker 1: because when you think about it, when we typically when

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Speaker 1: people choose their their you know, their careers. Even if

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Speaker 1: you could choose a career in your your teams, you're

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Speaker 1: late teams, you're early twenties. You know, by the time

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Speaker 1: you get into your forties, you know you you you're

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Speaker 1: following a path that was set on when you were younger. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and often you haven't experienced much of life,

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Speaker 1: and I often think about, wow, I chose this one

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Speaker 1: I was six, Um, But it was I just knew

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Speaker 1: that that was what I needed and wanted to do. UM.

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Speaker 1: I always envisioned myself making main stream comics, so Superman

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Speaker 1: and Batman and you know, Spider Man, all those kinds

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Speaker 1: of characters. I am very obsessive about the Superman. Anybody

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Speaker 1: who knows me will tell you that. And so that's

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Speaker 1: what I always figured I would be working on. But

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Speaker 1: life will unfold the way that it unfold, and so

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Speaker 1: that didn't quite happen, even though I did. I was

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Speaker 1: always drawing, I was always making comics, and that was

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Speaker 1: always my my goal. Uh. But however, you know, I

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Speaker 1: started teaching comics illustration and comics classes and workshops when

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Speaker 1: I was in my early to mid twenties, and this

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Speaker 1: would have been the early mid nineties. I did that

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Speaker 1: for a number of years, and that's where I learned

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Speaker 1: a lot. Uh. And that's where my path kind of

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Speaker 1: started to change a little bit. I was working more

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Speaker 1: on my own independent comics. I started working for other

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Speaker 1: clients and things. I was doing a lot of illustration work, uh,

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Speaker 1: and I had a day job to support a lot

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Speaker 1: of that. UH. And some years later, so this would

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Speaker 1: have been the early two thousands, I also started doing

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Speaker 1: work with the tune e M, which is the Museum

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Speaker 1: of Comics Are Tuned part based here in Pittsburgh. So

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Speaker 1: the founders of TUNS and I we were friends. We

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Speaker 1: had met when I was working in the Pittsburgh Center

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Speaker 1: of the Art teaching those workshops and classes. We stayed

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Speaker 1: in touch. He started up the tune ZUM and the

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Speaker 1: Tumuseum actually started working with the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh

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Speaker 1: on the initiative that became Hutzpal. Before I was involved.

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Speaker 1: I knew some of the participants that were on the

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Speaker 1: initial committee, and this would have been late THIRTEENA believe

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Speaker 1: or so I was aware that this was happening. And

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Speaker 1: my understanding is when the project began, UH, they even

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Speaker 1: though they wanted to use comics and cartoon art towards

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Speaker 1: the purpose of revisiting Holocaust education, revamping Holocaust education, UH,

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Speaker 1: they had not quite come to the decision to make

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Speaker 1: a comic itself formally, but when that decision was made,

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Speaker 1: the decision they decided to make a comic book and

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Speaker 1: a companion traveling art exhibit. So the moment that was decided,

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Speaker 1: I knew I was going to be involved with the project.

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Speaker 1: And I always tell people that even if they had

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Speaker 1: not tapped me to join them, I was going to

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Speaker 1: be involved with that project. Um, and it just it

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Speaker 1: just worked out, and so they did, in fact reach

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Speaker 1: out to me. So that Uh, at that time when

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Speaker 1: we were working on the first issue, we didn't have

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Speaker 1: we didn't have a template to go by, but we

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Speaker 1: I think we just had a very strong idea of

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Speaker 1: what it needed to become. My good, very good friend

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Speaker 1: and the lead project writer, Wayne Wise, he wrote all

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Speaker 1: four of the stories that were featured in the first issue.

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Speaker 1: UH and he you know, and then he reached out

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Speaker 1: to different artists to illustrate each of the stories. UH

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Speaker 1: and I ended up illustrating the story that told the

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Speaker 1: story of two survivors, Machee barn and Malco Baron, who

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Speaker 1: met and got married after the Holocaust. That was that

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Speaker 1: was a transformative experience because like I said, we didn't

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Speaker 1: have a we didn't have a template, we didn't have

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Speaker 1: anything to go by, but we were able to really

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Speaker 1: produce something strong. We hit the ground running. We talked

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Speaker 1: about that a lot how it holds up even when

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Speaker 1: we look at it now, like Volume one did exactly

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Speaker 1: what we wanted it to do, and it also turned

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Speaker 1: some people who had kind of questioned the project around

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Speaker 1: and brought them to our side. Because even some of

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Speaker 1: the survivors whose stories be told, we featured the stories

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Speaker 1: of survivors we settled here in Pittsburgh. Their their stories

401
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Speaker 1: really covered a breadth of experiences, you know. So we

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Speaker 1: had people who had been in camps, we had people

403
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Speaker 1: who had been partisan fighters. We had people who had

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Speaker 1: been in the military, the American military and gone back.

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Speaker 1: So it really covered a breadth of stories there. But

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Speaker 1: some of the survivors we approached to get their permission

407
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Speaker 1: or their families, they weren't quite as approving of the

408
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Speaker 1: project initially because they didn't understand there was that preconception

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Speaker 1: about what comics were, that they could do of them

410
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Speaker 1: as you know, as a juvenile art form or comedic.

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Speaker 1: For him and uh one of the other survivors who

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Speaker 1: was profiled in that first issue. For Tottenheimer, he was

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Speaker 1: one of those but when he saw the first issue.

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Speaker 1: We have a lovely photo of him from when he

415
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Speaker 1: received the first issue, almost hot off the press. UH.

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Speaker 1: He was instantly a supporter after that, and he gave

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Speaker 1: us a lot of the language that we have used

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Speaker 1: to describe the project since. So, you know and when

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Speaker 1: So when we were working on that first issue, I

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Speaker 1: I had to say, I just knew I was one

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Speaker 1: of the of a group of hardest working on this anthology.

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Speaker 1: But I had a very strong sense of how the

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Speaker 1: project was going to be evolved or needed to evolve. UH.

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Speaker 1: That's part of where the hit Pou method and the

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00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: Huitspal aesthetic kind of comes from. I just I could

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Speaker 1: see more issues in the series, and I started breaking

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Speaker 1: down what I thought those issues needed to be like

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Speaker 1: with the focal focus of each issue needed to become.

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Speaker 1: And it's largely so far played out very close to

430
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 1: that are behind the scenes, things have changed a good

431
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: bit both at the Holocaust Center and with the project

432
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: and who's who's working on it. UH. I now formally

433
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: work for the Holocaust Center, so they created a position

434
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: on staff for me to become its Power Project Coordinator.

435
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: So that's been a blessing all the ways around. UH.

436
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: And that kind of brings us to where we're at now,

437
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: where we're you know, we're producing these various issues, and

438
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: we're also getting them into the hand of the people

439
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: who are gonna if they're gonna they're intended for, which

440
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: is educators and students, but they're also created for general audiences.

441
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: So anybody who picks up a copy of any any

442
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: volume of its pal should get something out of it.

443
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you are the project coordinator on this,

444
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: you're also the lead project artist, a writer, a letterer.

445
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: Is it tricky to be doing the artistic part of

446
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: it and then have to shift gears and do more

447
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: of the administrative part of it. It can be at times,

448
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: it can be, but at the same time, it affords

449
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: me insight into the creative process Um when we were

450
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: working on the first two issues, So uh, this is

451
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: with the original editor, Zac affors Um. When that was

452
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: I worked very closely with him, which is what allowed

453
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: me to eventually transition into this role. He was actually

454
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: an advocate for me transitioning into this role and the

455
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: project wouldn't have become what it became without him. So

456
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: I just gotta, you know, do him match shoutouts because

457
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: he was great. But we worked so closely because because

458
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: it was easy for me to kind of anticipate the

459
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: needs of the writers and the hardest involved because that's

460
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: what I do. And so as we've been working on

461
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: the project likewise, it's been I think it's that's made

462
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: it a lot easier for us to get the best

463
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: work that we have out of all the creators evolved

464
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 1: because I know, I know what it's like to have

465
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: all the strictures and the things that the creators have,

466
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: and you know, and I there's times I've been able

467
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: to see what things can be improved, but not never

468
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: in a it's always in a in a positive way

469
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: and h and it's and it's worked out well, so

470
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: but it can there there there are times where it's

471
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 1: you know, I have to actively kind of all right,

472
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: so I'm now in this mode, I'm now in project

473
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: coordinator mode, or now I'm in a more uh creative mode.

474
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: But on the whole they go hand in hand, and

475
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: the staff here the Holocaust Center is super a supportive

476
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: and understanding of the need for me to switch gears,

477
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: which if they weren't, I wouldn't be able to do

478
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: what I do right. This is obviously a really important

479
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: project and it is in my mind worthy of a

480
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: huge distribution platform, but it's at it's hard. It's an

481
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: independent comic. I mean, I know people that make comics

482
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: and work for the big companies, and they have their

483
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: own challenges keeping stuff on track. And it feels like

484
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: as things get smaller in terms of the production, those

485
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 1: problems actually get bigger. So what are the challenges for

486
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: you that come with being uh an independent art houses? Well,

487
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: I think the same. It's they're similar to other independent comics,

488
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: you know, just reaching an audience and getting getting the

489
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 1: word out there that you exist and building on that.

490
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: But you know, ours are also very there's some things

491
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: that are specific to hoos Pout because we we are

492
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: producing this book with dual audiences in mind, and you know,

493
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: with with educators in mind. I say that because you know,

494
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: when when we tell people what we do, especially working

495
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: with educators, there are uh there's there's three notable texts

496
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: that are used in in these kinds of studies, uh

497
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: Night by Elie Wizzel, The Diary of Ann Frank and

498
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: Mouse by Art Spiegelman. So those because those three come

499
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: up all the time, especially that last one, because you

500
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: know that being a graphic I call graphic pros work.

501
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: But you know of born from the comic book arts medium,

502
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: so we get compared to that a lot. So there's

503
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: there's a challenge of getting this in in the hands

504
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: specifically of educators, and still overcoming the hurdle of it

505
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: being a comic book. I mean, that's not as much

506
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: of a challenge as I think it has been in

507
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: the past, but I mean it's still it does exist

508
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: until people see it. I will say that anytime. As

509
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: soon as people see it, they get it almost instantly.

510
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: And that's true of kids adults. You know, that cuts

511
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: a crop. I mean, we've we've had the fortune here

512
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: two have presented the pal to so many different people

513
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: from so many different backgrounds. Um, there was a wonderful

514
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: experience I had that was last year with a group

515
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: of middle and high school students. Had had a local

516
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: local boys and girls club and these it was predominantly

517
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: black youth, and you know, so I'm black, and it

518
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: was important for it was important for them to see

519
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: me in my role and working on this project. Uh.

520
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: And at first I wasn't sure that I had connected

521
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: with them, you know, just you know the part of

522
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: that was us because they were teenagers and you don't

523
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: always right away connected with your audience. But shortly thereafter

524
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: we some of the members of our staff, we were

525
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: at an event out in the world and we're walking

526
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: in a large vid of those kids were there and

527
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: they recognized me and they just they called out my

528
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: name and descended on me. And fortunately zach I mentioned

529
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: earlier he took a picture then, so I have proof

530
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: of it. They were really excited to see, but it

531
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: was also validation that we had connected with what we did.

532
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: And then we actually brought those kids into the Holocaust

533
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: Center afterwards where they got to meet and listen to

534
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: one of our survivors, and I was just lovely. Um. So,

535
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: I guess the bigger challenge with its pou as an

536
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: independent publication, it's just make making that happen again and

537
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: again and again, you know, and making that reach as

538
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: broad as possible. One thing that really stands out to

539
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: me looking at volumes one through three, and you sent

540
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: me kindly rough of some of the stuff that's in

541
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: for is how much effort you put in to accuracy

542
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: in representing places and spaces where these things happened. Like

543
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: I think I saw a note in some of the

544
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: four that was like about making sure that the facade

545
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: of a building like was was researched or something? Um,

546
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: what is that process like? And how how do you

547
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: get the right resources to have that information into the

548
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: hands of the artists that are recreating these these worlds?

549
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: And how often do you kind of have to fudge

550
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: things because you don't really have the primary sources on it.

551
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: Fidelity is something that from the outset, we paid a

552
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: lot of attention to what this project and that's that's

553
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: gonna that's ongoing. Uh. And that's true of both the

554
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: written component and the visual component. UH. It varies on

555
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: a case by case basis because with certain stories there's

556
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: there's more reference material. UH. With others, you know, when

557
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: there's less debt, we rely more on the creators involved

558
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: to come up with a reasonable presentation of what would

559
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: have happened. UM. Fritz Fritz Ottenheimer whom I mentioned earlier,

560
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: he he spoke about that, like the the advantage of

561
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: using the comic book medium to tell these stories, which is,

562
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: you know, because you didn't have photographers or videographers of

563
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: or or filmographers available everywhere to document everything. You know,

564
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: it was certainly a different world than we're living in now.

565
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: You know, writers and artists, for specifically comic book creators.

566
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: They can use their imaginations and skill sets to fill

567
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: in those gaps. So we have done that from time

568
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: to time, but we usually you know, it has to

569
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: be done with the right kind of sensibility to it.

570
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: You know. For instance, I've there's been instances where I've

571
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: had to reverse engineer what somebody may have looked like

572
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: when they were young. That's tricky, um, but you know,

573
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: I just so. On the cover of our first issue, uh,

574
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 1: one of our survivors depicted Dora Alert, who was very

575
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: well known in our local community. We had to do that,

576
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: like I had to. I had to basically reverse engineer

577
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 1: how I thought she would have looked as a young

578
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: lady when her story took place. Uh. And I didn't.

579
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: I didn't have much reference to go by. Most of

580
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,959
Speaker 1: them was her older Uh. Just a week ago I

581
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: came across the photo here in our archives at the

582
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: Holocrost Center. That just what It was a photo that

583
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: wasn't available at the time, And I just want to

584
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: kick something because oh, this would have been great to

585
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: have had. But at the same time it was I

586
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: I uh, oh, And there was a number of photos

587
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: of our survivors when they were young that was you know,

588
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: it's it's it's humbling to think of them because these

589
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: are all real people. You know. We're not making any

590
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: of this up, so that is a very and that

591
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: keeps us grounded. But what I was glad about was

592
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: I got pretty close. I think I got about about

593
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: as close as I had have been able to, you know,

594
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: like you could still tell that was her. So you know,

595
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: we do the best we can. And that's why it's

596
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: also a group process too. You know, all the stories

597
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: have to be vetted by our team. Um, and if

598
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: there's a question you know where we encourage the question

599
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: to be raised, like we always want to make sure

600
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: that it's as close to you know, accuracy that with

601
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: the accuracy is as high as possible. Uh. You mentioned

602
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: this all being part of a team, and I'm wondering,

603
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: is there a quick and dirty version of like what

604
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: is the actual process like from the moment where you

605
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: say yes, we're featuring Freedom Bell in fonta to here's

606
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: the printed comic. Is there a quick and dirty version

607
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: of that? Okay, so the quick and dirty version would be, first,

608
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: we select all the subjects we like to kind of

609
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: know who all is going to be included in each issue,

610
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: because that gives us a sense of what the balance

611
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: of the you know, the content is going to be.

612
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 1: Once we've done that, then the next part is finding

613
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: the right creative team or individuals. Sometimes it's one person,

614
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: sometimes it's two, sometimes it's three, but we want to

615
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, make sure that we have the right person

616
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: working on that right story. And while we do typically

617
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: like to call our talent here locally because it's just

618
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,439
Speaker 1: easier to work with people that you have here on hand,

619
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: we reach outside of the region on a couple of occasions.

620
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: But it's always about finding pairing the right talent with

621
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: the right story. And sometimes even after the fact, like

622
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: you have to replace people that has happened, Um, but

623
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: I have found up to right now, it almost always

624
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: works out the way it's supposed to work out. Uh.

625
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: When the emphasis is on telling the story correctly, you

626
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: end up with the people involved with the talent involved

627
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to have. So uh, it's really just

628
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: about keeping the lines of communication open. That's the part

629
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: that assures that you're gonna end up with the best product.

630
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: So how much back and forth is there? So is

631
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: it pretty much that the writer comes in with their script,

632
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: the artist does their thing, everything gets approved, it goes

633
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: to print. How many revisions do you typically do, like

634
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: where in that in that line of process do things

635
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: shift around? Where do they get a little amba like?

636
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: It can It can vary from story to story, but

637
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: typically we contact the writer's first and although ideally we

638
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: like to know who the teams are going to be,

639
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: but we contact the writer's first, uh, and once they've

640
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, they've been briefed on you know, the history

641
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: and you know a lot of very often they do

642
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: a lot of independent research. If there's a specific aspect

643
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: of the story we'd like to focus on, we have

644
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: some discussion about that. But you know, we get once

645
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 1: we get a first draft in, you know, I review

646
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: it first, in the team reviews it, We compiler notes,

647
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: try to get those back to the writers and so

648
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: there can be some back and forth, but usually, I

649
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: mean usually we're able to get it within a couple

650
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: of drafts. It's usually not a labored process because our

651
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 1: our talent pool is really super strong. And then it's

652
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: more or less the same thing with the artists. By

653
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: the time the artists gets the scripts and you know

654
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: they get to go ahead. It's usually a little bit

655
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: I guess more straightforward with them because they've got something

656
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: to actually go from. But that sense that can present

657
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: its own challenges as well, Like you can read a

658
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: script and kind of have the whole thing, but once

659
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: you get that art back, there might be other issues

660
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: that you have to hire out. But usually you're able

661
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: to you know, we're able to get that taken care

662
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: of within a draft or two. We always have the

663
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: artists do send us the preliminary layouts because the ideas

664
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: we'd want them to have to redraw as little as possible,

665
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: so they'll just send us layout, pencil artwork, or if

666
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: they work digitally, just their roughs uh and then you know,

667
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: once we've got it clear enough where we can understand

668
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: that often now we drop in well I'll drop in

669
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: lettering on top of the roughs, just to see how

670
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: it flows and looks and everything. Um. Once that gets approved,

671
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: you know they're they're given to go ahead as well.

672
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: There can be changes up to the last minute. I

673
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: will say that because in the volume three we had

674
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: we had some changes and usually at that point it's

675
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: mostly text, but until we submitted it to the printer.

676
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's a process from beginning to end.

677
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: But you know, at this point we do I have

678
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 1: a method with it, so it's not too too bad. Um.

679
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: I know your method has been refined as you've gone

680
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: on and now, as you said, you have a pretty

681
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: strong process in place. And I know you also mentioned

682
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: that you have on occasion found resource images you wish

683
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: you had earlier. But now that you are several years

684
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: into this project and apparently looking you know, all the

685
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: way to volume nine and perhaps beyond, do you wish

686
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: you had done anything different earlier on? I'm going to

687
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: say no, because we needed to do what we did

688
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: to get to where we're at right now. And I

689
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: guess there's things that could have been tweaked or or

690
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 1: you know, people we could have approached that we didn't.

691
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you can always kind of second

692
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: guess it after the fact, but honestly, we've done far

693
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: more right. Think it's pal then we've been you know,

694
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: we've been misteps. We've made many missteps have been very

695
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: very minor, and you know, it's it's a continually evolving project,

696
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: so we get to keep refining it. It's just some

697
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: We just asked me readingly, like, what's your favorite issue?

698
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 1: And they just asked me this yesterday, and I always say,

699
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: and it's the truth, it's always the issue that we're

700
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: working on at that time, because it always you can

701
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: tell that's going to be the best issue ever. I

702
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: love that answer. I'm just over here smiling. I don't

703
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: know if you can hear it. Um. One thing I

704
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: also wanted to ask you is how you select your

705
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: superheroes for each volume. Well, as Jackie explained, there's a

706
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: theme involved with every issue, you know, and that works

707
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: into are also larger programming here at the Holocaust Center.

708
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 1: But you know, we we try to select the French

709
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: Ace will use volume four as an example. We try

710
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: to select stories that really cover a breadth of the

711
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: subject matter. UM hotstyle stories on average about six pages long,

712
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: so it doesn't give you much room to tell a

713
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: person's life story or even sometimes just an instance in

714
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: a person's life story. So it's all about the economy

715
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: of the storytelling. So you know, we have to kind

716
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: of look at whose story can we tell in this

717
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: abbreviated way and still managed to convey the essence of

718
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 1: what makes this so important, and there's there's other there's

719
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: there's a number of factors that can result in why

720
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: we do choose one story over another. Some can be

721
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: just access to information and what we're able to verify. Um,

722
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: if it's subject to people we know, like our local folks,

723
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 1: you know, we'd like to get people's blessings where possible

724
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: volume for these This is telling stories of people who

725
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: are more publicly known, so we don't have that same

726
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: kind of constraint, but you know, we we we look

727
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: at that balance, I guess more than anything else. And

728
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: you know, if there's two people who have more or

729
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: less the same kind of a story, same sort of background,

730
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: but one your experience is is a little stronger or

731
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: it's more it's easier to capture, you know, then that

732
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: becomes the story that we would probably go with. And

733
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: it just has to kind of feel right. And that's

734
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: an organic process, you know, but it's also it's a

735
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: democratic process, you know, Like I I know, in the

736
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: role that I'm in, if somebody came to me and

737
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: was like they were just really strongly advocating for a

738
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: particular story, you know, I would listen to that. Uh.

739
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: But Jackie mentioned also like she she was ravocating for

740
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 1: freedom story, and she couldn't have been more right about

741
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: that one. So yeah, it's it's it's a process. But but

742
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: but then by the time you've come down to your

743
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: final selection five six people typically you know you'd like,

744
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: you're able to look at it and go, yep, that's

745
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: our group, that's who we need to be telling these

746
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: stories about. Since this has really become a big part

747
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: of your life for a while now, um, what has

748
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 1: been the biggest surprise along the way for you personally

749
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: is being part of this project. How warmly it's been received.

750
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: I knew this was something that was going to be

751
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: received well, but it's it's really it means, it means

752
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: a lot to people. We just had a group of

753
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: UH eighth graders in here yesterday and at one point

754
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: I was talking to him about the project. I was

755
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: talking about the first story I worked on, and the

756
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 1: moment it hit me that, you know, these are real

757
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 1: people's lives that we were being contrusted with depicting. And

758
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,720
Speaker 1: I was looking right at them, and I could see

759
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: right in the middle of the group there was a

760
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: group of girls and like their faces just all changed

761
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: all at once, and it looked like they were going

762
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: to cried. It's a little bit like but in a

763
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: good way. They get it. They get this the and

764
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: and the immediacy. I guess that they appreciate this project.

765
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: That's what grabs me. I I was at Carlo College

766
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: not long after we finished the second issue. I was

767
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: invited in to talk to a group of students for

768
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: their arts in the Holocaust Studies class. And they had

769
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: been assigned a number of works including Mouse Uh to

770
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: read and so they had read that, and they read

771
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: Mouth and they told me directly how they appreciated Mouse

772
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: and they liked it, but they loved huts Pal And

773
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: that really bowled me over the fact that they loved

774
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 1: Hutspal even over Mouse. And that's not to take anything

775
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: away from Mouse, but I think they were just able

776
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: to connect with these stories because you know, we we

777
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: we render these stories in a um in a in

778
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: a short fashion, which you know, you get a lot

779
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: of information at a short space. But also it's a

780
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: very naturalistic depiction, you know, it's not stylized. And that

781
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: I think that that accounted for at least some of that.

782
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: So that warm reception is the thing. I guess that

783
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: that could continues. That's still surprise that surprises me but

784
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: makes me very happy. Do you think about it in

785
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 1: terms of being like your legacy in some ways? Sure? Sure,

786
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: Sure if if if I got abducted by a spaceship tomorrow,

787
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: which I don't want to happen, but you know, you

788
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: just never know. But if it's something like if like

789
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: I just were not involved with it's now it's been

790
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: the best experience I could have ever asked for. And

791
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: it's it's provided platforms for me to do other things.

792
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: It's it's just it's wonderful. Like when I tell people

793
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: where I work and what I work on, it's amazing

794
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: what their reactions are even before they've seen it, just

795
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: knowing what it is. It's a blessed project, so you

796
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 1: and it's the kind of thing you don't encounter that often. Um,

797
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: it's possible. I'm not gonna say this for sure, but

798
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: it's possible. I might be the only like working cartoonist

799
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh has like a day job making comics where

800
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: you know the benefits and stuff, and that's like, that's

801
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: a black I could have never imagined this would have

802
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: been possible. But I do want to see more of

803
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: it happen, because it's the thing that also affords a

804
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 1: lot of opportunities for a lot of other creatives here

805
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh. That makes me super happy being able to

806
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: meet people like Bertie who just kind of came out

807
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,439
Speaker 1: of nowhere and and knocked it out of a park

808
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: right off the bat. Where is that? Where does that

809
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: happen anywhere else? You know? I guess if you if

810
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: you're with a sports team or something, well, but I'm

811
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: not an athlete. I'm an artist. So this is this

812
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: is where I want to see it happen. That's so perfect.

813
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: I want to point out for all you know that

814
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: spaceship is taking you to a a tune planet. I'm

815
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: just saying, be open to these ideas. I used to

816
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: think about that when I was a kid. There's a heaven.

817
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: I still where all the comics stuff is for real, right,

818
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 1: I feel like Bugs Bunny is there, and uh, Old

819
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: School Spider Man is there for me. I understand, Um,

820
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: you understand I do. Uh. What do you hope that

821
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: people take away from this comic when they read it? Well?

822
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: I always want to, you know, I want I want

823
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: readers to always remember you and these are real people,

824
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: and it's the story is gonna be really exciting and

825
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: moving and and and transformative. But these are real people

826
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 1: and that means that they are flawed, they're not perfect. Uh.

827
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: And Volume two I wrote and drew the story of

828
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: a Renais Sendler, who was a Polish social worker who

829
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 1: was part of a network to help rescue approximately children

830
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: from the Warsaw ghetto. And you know, in doing the

831
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: research on her, she was not a perfect person by

832
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: any means, but she was a very strong person. And

833
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: there's certain colors I have with Arena and Frieda in

834
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: that the fiber of their character and the way they

835
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: were able to do what they did, and you know,

836
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: and and both of them, I feel like they did

837
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: the perfect thing. Like their lives are representative of the

838
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: perfect response to what the Holocaust was is they both

839
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: live really really long, productive lives and you know, so

840
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: I that's the kind of thing that I hope readers

841
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: take away from um these these other messages and now

842
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, fortitude and longevity, you know, that's what wins

843
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: out in the end. Our deepest thanks to Bertie, Jackie

844
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: and ourself for spending time talking with me and to

845
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh for even launching this amazing project.

846
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: I'm so excited that they're looking for ways that they

847
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,919
Speaker 1: can help other communities develop similar projects. And we will

848
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: link to the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh's website so you

849
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 1: can get all the information on Hutzpau, including how to order. Yeah,

850
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: they'll have lots of lots of fun links on the

851
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: show page for this day, so we hope that you

852
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: will check those out. Uh. Since this has been a

853
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 1: lengthier episode, I was going to do kind of a

854
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: shorter listener mail, but it's really fantastic. It is from

855
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: our listener, Emmy, and she writes, Hey, Halley and Tracy,

856
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: I am a huge fan of the podcast and I'm

857
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: a history major in college. Bravo, Emmy. When listening to

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00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: your Maria tal Chief episode, you mentioned her last husband,

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00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: Henry Buzz Passion Junior from Chicago, and that name sounded familiar.

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00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: Henry is a family name, and Passion was my mom's

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00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 1: last name. So I asked my mom and she confirmed

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00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: that Maria tal Chief was my third cousin's wife. That's

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00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: a grandpa's cousin's wife. I'm doing a family history paper

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00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: on my mom's side for one of my history classes,

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00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: and I'm totally going to use you guys as a source.

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00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: I was unknowingly doing research while listening to your podcast,

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00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: which I thought was hilarious. Uh, she has You all

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00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: are amazing and I can't wait to keep listening. Emmy,

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00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: that's so cool. She also wrote a ps that her

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00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: mom met Maria and said that she was very nice.

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00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 1: Doesn't surprise me, um. That is such a fabulous and

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00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: cool connection to history. We always talk about how what

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00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: keeps us passionate about talking about history is that it

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00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: is a living thing and we are connected to it

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00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: in ways we don't always realize, and this is a

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00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: very direct connection. So thank you so much for sharing

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00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 1: that with us, Emmy. If you would like to share

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00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: your connections to history with us, you can do that

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00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: at History Podcast at I heart radio dot com. That

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00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: is a new address, so keep in mind. You can

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00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: also find us everywhere on social media at missed in

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00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: History and missed in History dot com is also our website.

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00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 1: If you would like to subscribe, that sounds like a

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00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: fantastic idea. You can do that on the I Heart

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00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever it is you listen.

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00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: Stuffy Missed in History Class is a production of I

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00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: heart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my

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00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.