WEBVTT - Stressed Miners Strategize to Survive Crypto Downturn 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.439 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a dearly Bloomberg I heard podcast, 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:09.520 and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:28.400 Bloomberg News. It's Friday, September nine. As crypto prices hover 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.600 well below their all time highs, the companies that mind 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.280 bitcoin are starting to show signs of financial strain. Second 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.440 quarter earnings reports show that some of the largest US 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.440 publicly traded bitcoin mining companies have had over a billion 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.199 dollars and losses. These are companies like Core Scientific and 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:50.040 Marathon Digital Holdings, which each reported net losses of more 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:54.080 than a hundred million dollars. To discuss what's driving this distress, 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.040 I'm joined by Bloomberg Reports of David pan they basically 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.240 tribute coin as a commodity, and by Amanda Fabiano. The 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.160 energy narrative around bitcoin has always been a thorn in 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:10.840 our side. Amanda is the head of mining a Galaxy. Welcome. So, Amanda, 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.800 I'd love to start with you. You know, tell us 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.080 a little bit about your role at Galaxy. What does 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.840 a head of mining do at a company like Galaxy? Yeah, 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.360 you know, one day is not the same as the last. 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.160 I can say that mining is a really interesting space 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.280 to operate in every single day. UM, and I definitely 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.080 am not bored at any point. Our mining business has 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.360 two main focuses. We mind bitcoin, and then we also 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.560 create financial services for miners. So we leverage, you know, 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.520 all of galaxy to connect bitcoin miners to different products 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.319 that could help them grow and scale their business because 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.200 it's a capital intensive business, right, and miners consistently need 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:55.920 ways to think about treasury management and additional capital and 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.720 leveraging what they have right to get more capital. So 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.680 you know, we're really committed to providing bitcoin miners with 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.640 a comprehensive suite of financial services that really fit their needs. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:11.000 When you talk about the capital intensive nature of mining, 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:12.520 can you say a little bit more about that? So 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:18.040 somebody who has perhaps only encountered in theory how bitcoin 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.960 mining works, what are the specifics of what you're described? Sure? So, UM, 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:28.040 mining requires a location. The location requires construction build out right, 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.720 finding a location that has low source of power. You're 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:36.000 building out either you know, energy infrastructure, a substation, renting 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.400 energy infrastructure. All that costs a lot of money. And 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.240 then on top of it, you're adding these specialized computers 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.799 to mind bitcoin and the way that you purchase them 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.040 is really on like a forward basis, right, So you 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.600 put down a deposit, you're to put down another deposit, 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.840 and you're paid for the machine before it even arrives, 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.720 So you're not getting any revenue before you have to 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.400 pay for for that asset. So you know, it does 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:00.120 require a lot of upfront capital and so mine is 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.880 constantly looking at how can they leverage what they have 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:07.320 um to continue to get capital to build in scale. 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.480 And when you say leverage what they have, you know, 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:12.800 one of the biggest assets is of course or potentially 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.959 like the bitcoin itself that they are mining. Yep. It's 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.280 interesting when you think about what they have. They have 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.000 physical assets, right, like they have a land, right, they 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:33.120 have electricity infrastructure, they have these machines, and then they 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.080 have bitcoin that they produce. You know, hedging has not 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.200 been something that miners have been focusing on, but miners 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.880 can hedge so much. They can hedge that bitcoin, they 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.640 can hedge their energy, and they can also hedge the 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:48.080 hash rate that they're producing as part of their overall 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.960 plan um. So you know, there's lots of ways that 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.480 are not being drawn on yet that miners could potentially 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.480 work with to make the most of the situation that 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:02.600 they're in, especially as capital markets have really started to 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:09.040 wind down to this specific space now, things like electricity hedging, 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:12.600 you know, power market hedging generally, many companies for many 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.760 years have been become extremely sophisticated at this. But you know, David, 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:20.400 I remember a conversation that we had that and you know, 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.160 to the point that demand is making this is like 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.800 a relatively new skill for bitcoin miners, and in some 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:32.400 cases they've been surprised by just how extreme the temperatures 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.200 have been in some of the places that they're operating, 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.400 like Texas or like the spikes in electricity. So what 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.279 are you observing here in terms of how they're developing. 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.120 You know, that hedging capability that Amanda has described, I 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.960 think for bitcoin miners it is still a frontier for them, 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.040 Like it's kind of like a process into making right now. Still, 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.280 as Amanda said, a lot of the bitcoin miners they 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.320 were not hedging. So that's why we're seeing a very 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.280 terrible earning season in general for all of these crypto 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.919 mining companies in the second quarter this year. Um But 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.520 one of the ways they're looking into is to hatch 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.240 the power they're going to use for for the mining operations. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:17.440 As we have discussed before, right blockchain. Um, you know 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.880 they have. They have made some like millions of dollars 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:26.120 from the power grid in Texas and earning in power credits. UM. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.120 I guess like one of the ways is just like 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.200 to negotiated a really good deal with a power broker 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.880 where like with the supplier from the grid and to 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:40.320 kind of like hatch against the fluctuations in energy prices. Imanna, 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:41.960 I want to go back, go ahead amount it. Sorry, 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.640 I was just gonna say, David, I totally agree. I 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.640 think what Riot has done has been a really unique 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:50.039 way to think about power markets, and it feeds into 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.600 the narrative that we've been saying for so long a 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.360 bitcoin mining right. Miners are good for the grid. They 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.560 provide you know, an optionality to stay on in mind 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.280 bitcoin when it works for them, and they also can 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.440 turn off quickly and provide energy back to the grid 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.279 when the grid needs it most. And they are making 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:12.120 money either way, right, so it's economical for them to 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.440 sell power back to the grid, They're going to do that, right, 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.520 And if it's economical for them to mind bitcoin, they're 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.640 going to do that. So I feel like, you know, 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:25.039 the energy narrative around bitcoin has always been a thorn 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:29.200 in our side and riots um, what Right has done 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:33.120 has provided a real use case for how it could 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.880 really work well with the grid, like miners in general 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.320 can really work well with the grid. I want to 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:44.880 also ask a question about the counterintuitive nature of miners 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:50.000 started to sell bitcoin when bitcoin prices went down. So 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.280 it's like you would have expected some sales at sixty 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:57.400 five K, fifty five K, forty five k, instead we 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.240 hit twenty five and everybody's like, now seems like a 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.760 good time to sell. And you've had a similar issue 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:06.080 where as the crisis of riggs declines, they're also selling 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:10.680 those in an attempt to you know, generate additional cash 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:14.000 flu That does not seem sustainable to me as a 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:18.040 as a strategy. Yeah, it's unfortunate for sure. I think 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.280 that there's kind of like the perfect combination of all 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.680 bad things happening for miners right now. Right so, you know, 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.920 there's not a ton of options available for minors. So 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.000 they got to a place, it seems like where it's 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.640 like we have to sell our treasury in order to survive. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:37.040 I think it also boils down to the fundamental strategies 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:41.000 for between different mining companies. Some of the companies they 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.920 do sell like you know, over the course of you know, 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:49.160 from starting their business in as early as nineteen, so 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.160 they basically tribute coin as a commodity like a gold 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:55.160 mining company, you know, like when they when they mind 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.720 certain amount of bitcoin, they will sell a portion of 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:02.200 that to replenish their cash flow on also just to 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.120 capture some of the high prices along the way. Yeah, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.040 I think that, you know, it's funny when it's a 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.760 bear market, the people that sell bitcoin look like geniuses, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:11.680 and when it's a bull market, the people that hoold 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.240 look like genius. It's right, and I think there needs 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.280 to be a strategy for both of that. Also, David, 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.160 to your point, like I think, you know, Core is 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.680 a great example of that. They also have additional revenue streams, right, 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.920 They're a large posting provider, so they are consistently getting 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.680 cash on the door beyond just bitcoin, whereas you know, 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.280 some of the pure Plaine miners only have you know, 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.280 the bitcoin coming in as revenue. I would say, you know, 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.400 the Hoddle strategy. My perception of it is the ones 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.319 who did that over the last bull bear market were 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.560 the ones that really were able to survive. And I 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.400 think that kind of stuck with some of the miners, 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.000 right like they were like, okay, let's look at for example, 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.120 how to eight Right they did they were able to 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.319 survive the last bull bear market, and they have the 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:56.720 largest Hoddle strategy that exists. And so I think that others, 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.960 you know, newer miners that came up over the last market, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.240 it looked to who existed over the last year and 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.600 what was their strategy. I think what I'd love to 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.280 see is that shift so that each miner has their 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:11.800 own individual treasury management strategy that is extremely comprehensive that 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.920 might reduce their margins, but also like might make them consistent. 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:18.040 And that's I think what we need in order for 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.400 this market to mature. Right now, all miners trend with 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:28.160 the price of bitcoin up. Next. More from David Pan 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.640 and Amanda Fabiano on how bitcoin miners are navigating falling 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:47.439 crypto prices and rising energy costs. Manda, David, this is 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:49.480 a question for both of you, because I'm interested in 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:53.240 how you're each going to calm at it. So one 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.040 of the bigger stories in you know, crypto more broadly 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.360 is of course the Ethereum merge, which is expected yet 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.600 again but for sure this time um to be happening 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.319 in you know, just not too long from now, and 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.600 that's had some interesting effects on bitcoin miners. It has 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.319 made their rigs cheaper because you know, folks are starting 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.439 to switch away from needing proof of work machines into 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.640 you know, the different strategies for the merger for Ether 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:25.560 and Ethereum in the future. But it's also complexified the 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.120 environmental considerations here where you know, we've talked on this 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.120 podcast about certain types of investors who really need that 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.480 like e s G. Stamp of approval, may be interested 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.040 in switching away some of their investments from bitcoin miners 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.920 into other parts of the market. So, Amanda, I'd love 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.840 to just get your perspective on how, if at all, 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.520 you are kind of talking through or you know, what 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.000 kinds of conversations you're having about this as it relates 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:55.760 to your projections for six, twelve and eighteen months. Yeah. Look, 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.080 I think that there's a world that exists where proof 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.800 of stake and exists, right, and and that's totally fine. 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:07.199 It's fundamentally different than proof of work, right, so where 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.000 I think comparing them apples to apples is just not realistic. 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:15.240 What bitcoin did was create this incredible consensus mechanism that 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:19.040 doesn't have a point of failure. Right. It is completely distributed. 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.559 It's a distributed network. Like you opt in, it's proof 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.320 of work. You have to do the work right in 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.880 order to get you know, the reward. Um. I think 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:32.679 when we think about belittling Bitcoin down to its energy usage, 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.240 I question, you know, what is the motives behind that? 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.959 And why is that a massive a massive question? Right? 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:41.840 Like do we do that with other industries? Do we 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.040 wonder like how much you know, energy is spent on 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.120 you know, washer and dryers? Right? Do we think about 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:50.840 how much energy is spent on maintaining the current financial 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:54.199 system that is not as inclusive as bitcoin is. If 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.760 we pale back like bitcoin miners, what they're looking for 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.800 is cheap energy in order to you know, beyond the 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:03.200 low end of the cost curve, and that eventually will 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:08.160 shift to you know, clean forms of renew of energy. Um, 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:11.680 maybe nuclear right? Um? So I think that you know, 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.880 mining is an E S G investment, It just is, right, 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.000 I think that Howard. Part is this people don't want 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.360 to do the homework to understand why. Well, I think 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.360 to your point about do we do that for washer dryers. 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.880 I mean, one of the big developments over the past 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.000 couple of decades was this idea of like energy Star 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.800 compliance and you know, like how efficient is your fridge 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.439 or you know, to your point about our folks asking 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.280 these questions about financial services, I mean, if you look 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.200 at some of the the activist investors in the positions 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:42.480 that they're taking about wanting folks to divest from certain 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.360 kinds of things, I mean, this is certainly a conversation 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.559 that is happening across anything that you could analyze with tickers. 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.160 Somebody out there has a position that like X y 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.000 z is insufficiently green in a context of climate change. 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.920 It does seem like bitcoin gets a lot of this 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.640 attention because it is one I would say new were 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:02.440 as it relates to all of those other things. People 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.200 are used to having washing machines, they're a little bit 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.640 less used to having bitcoin miners in existence in Texas, uh, 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:11.560 and to it's a very visible industry as it relates 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.199 to financial services, right, like crypto had a lot more 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.959 literal advertising than your sort of your average money market 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.800 fund UM over the past couple of years, which brings 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.840 me to you, David. One of the you know, the 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.240 opportunities for bitcoin miners is absolutely what Amanda mentioned in 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:33.359 terms of diversifying away from relying on like fossil fuels 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.600 or you know, in kind of a semi diversified way, 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.599 like they're using like waste energy in the way that 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.400 they are in Texas with flares that would otherwise just 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.400 have you know, gas flaring. What are the real prospects 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.199 from your seeing from what you're reporting in people's ability 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.160 to start making that switch to say wind power for instance. 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:54.760 I think there are a couple of things that we 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.679 have to consider. Firstly, I think, um it is like 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:03.480 a relatively hard to find renewable energy sources UM, not 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.839 only for bitcoin miners but also for any energy intensive 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.640 businesses UM, just because natural gas is very readily available 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.560 across the US, and UM it's easier to control, you know, 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.800 can you can throttle up and throw or throtle down 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.800 the harder to control the wind, Yeah, harder to control 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:23.800 wind and solar. But I would say like a one 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.680 incentive from the energy side is that a lot of 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.680 the renewable energy companies, UM, they have a tough financial situation. 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:32.920 Based on some of the conversations that I had with 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:37.360 the bitcoin miners, they say, like some renewable energy companies 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.160 would reach out because like Talent is one of the examples, 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.120 Like it went bankrupt and then it had a really 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:48.080 heavy focused on renewable energy. They had a partnership with 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.600 with bitcoin mining companies. UM. I mean generally, I think 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.400 like some of these renewable energy focused companies, they are 0:14:55.440 --> 0:15:00.400 incentivized to find more diversified a new revenue streams. One 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:05.920 of them will be a bitcoin mining businesses. Amount of 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.120 just a closing question for you. You know, you've talked 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.080 about the importance of folks who are interested in this 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.520 sector to do a little bit more homework, so like 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.200 to really understand that the fundamentals given the people don't 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.440 always do the entire assignments. If you could tell them 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.440 one thing that they should be doing, what that What 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.280 would that one thing be? Oh, man, I think I 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:28.600 might be too demanding to name one. I have like 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.760 a list of dirty in my head, Like I think 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.760 that I would say, like meet with people in the space, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:38.479 understand their intentions and like that miners are great businesses 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.480 to invest in, especially right now in a bear market. Um, 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:46.040 and you know, there is no bitcoin without bitcoin miners, 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.280 so it's like it's a great part of the industry 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.640 to get to know and learn about. And David, I 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.600 think if you're bitcoin mining stock investor, you should just 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:01.120 really look into what exactly the companies are doing, rather 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:05.320 than regard the whole like every single mining stock as 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.320 like a monolistic asset, Like you should just look into 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.640 the fundamentals of these companies because like each bitcoin mining 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:17.320 company has like a vastly different strategy, even for right 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.800 on the marathon, they have very very different strategies in 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:25.080 terms of how to develop their mining operations and earning bitcoin. 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.400 So my one piece of advice is just do some 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.520 research on the stock that you're investing in, and do 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:40.800 not think bitcoin mining stocks as one chunk of monolitht Yeah, 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.440 on that we all agree. Um well, thank you both 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.880 so much, David, A pleasure to have you as always, Amanda, 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.200 thank you so much for joining us. You can find 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.920 more of David's reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.840 dot com or follow him on Twitter. He's at David 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:02.120 Pan underscore one on the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.800 If you ask crypto enthusiasts why they believe in the 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.360 asset class, there's at least one response that you're going 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.280 to hear, and it's about privacy and resistance to government censorship. 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.960 But what's happening to Tornado Cash, which is an application 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.840 designed to offer both privacy and resistance to government censorship, 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:32.480 is proving to be a real stress test for the ecosystem. 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.639 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.639 I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.959 visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.560 you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.640 suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:57.560 or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.879 producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina. Our senior 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.399 producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Farup and 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:08.520 Sharon Barrio. Hilda Garcia is our engineer. Original music by 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.080 Leo Sidran. I'm Stacy, Marie Ishmael. Have a great weekend.