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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. The intersection between eating and

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Speaker 1: happiness is pretty complicated and something I think about a lot,

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Speaker 1: but it's not a topic we've tackled a lot on

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Speaker 1: the show. Recently, I was invited to appear on the

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Speaker 1: podcast Food We Need to Talk, and preparing for my interview,

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Speaker 1: it really helped me focus my thoughts on this important subject.

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Speaker 1: Just like the Happiness Lab, Food we Need to Talk

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Speaker 1: relies on the latest science to tackle issues like body image, nutrition, exercise,

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Speaker 1: and addiction. I felt totally at home on the show

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Speaker 1: and really enjoyed my conversation with the host Yuna and Eddie,

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Speaker 1: and so I thought you would too. If afterwards you

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Speaker 1: want to hear more smart thoughts on eating, then you

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Speaker 1: should listen to other episodes of Food we Need to

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Speaker 1: Talk wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Just a heads up to our listeners, this episode does

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Speaker 2: involve discussion of eating disorders. If you need more information

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Speaker 2: or need help finding help, go to National Eatingdisorders dot Org.

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Speaker 3: I'm Unadjata and I'm doctor Eddie Phillips, Associate Professor at

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Speaker 3: Harvard Medical School.

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Speaker 2: And you're listening to Food we Need to Talk, the

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Speaker 2: only podcast that has been scientifically proven to help you

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Speaker 2: be happy with your food again. Welcome back to food.

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Speaker 2: We need to talk. Thank you so much, Professor Santos

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Speaker 2: for coming back on to talk about food this time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, the first question we wanted to ask you about

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Speaker 2: is do you think that we view food differently today

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Speaker 2: than we traditionally have in the past, Because I feel like,

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Speaker 2: to me, food has always seemed very utilitarian. You use

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Speaker 2: food to either be healthy or to manipulate your weight.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think that in the past people were

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Speaker 2: so preoccupied with their weight and so focused on health,

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Speaker 2: right because they were just eating food to survive. And

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Speaker 2: so I feel like it's completely you started to mean

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Speaker 2: this different thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it's worth

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Speaker 1: going really way back right to how we used to

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Speaker 1: think about food evolutionarily, right, you know. I think when

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Speaker 1: we were a hunter gatherers, food was just another one

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Speaker 1: of our basic needs, right, you know, we'd get sleepy

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Speaker 1: and we'd sleep, we'd be cold and maybe put on

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Speaker 1: a blanket or a fur or something. I think when

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Speaker 1: we were hungry, we wanted to eat. And I think

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Speaker 1: if you look at the foods that people were eating

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Speaker 1: back then, you know, like roots and tubers and whatever,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the back in the evolutionary day, very

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Speaker 1: little of it was this sort of highly palatable food.

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Speaker 1: And so I think sometimes we think, oh, today food's

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Speaker 1: so utilitarian. You know, maybe we need to get back

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Speaker 1: to pleasure. But in some ways, I think we need

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Speaker 1: to get back to what food really was. It's just

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Speaker 1: like a way to fulfill our needs. It wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: supposed to be this super pleasurable thing that you know,

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Speaker 1: we got a lot out of. And so I think

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Speaker 1: when you take that big historical approach, you realize, wow,

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Speaker 1: we're thinking about food in a really different way, and

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Speaker 1: it's one of the needs that we've gotten so obsessed about.

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Speaker 1: You know, you talked about regulating your weight or kind

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Speaker 1: of wanting to get fit and things like that. And

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Speaker 1: I think these days we really are super utilitarian when

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Speaker 1: it comes to food. And when you start to realize

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Speaker 1: that it's just an urge, this starts to feel kind

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Speaker 1: of weird, you know when you think about like, you know,

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Speaker 1: if I have urged to go to the bathroom, right,

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Speaker 1: I have to urinate, I'm not like making a schedule

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Speaker 1: or having an app or like there's not like influencers

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Speaker 1: who are telling me I wanted to go to eth,

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Speaker 1: Like if I'm feeling cold, there's very little infrastructure for

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Speaker 1: like how to get warmer or tips on getting what like.

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Speaker 1: You just kind of obey that need. And somehow we've

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Speaker 1: gotten off track with food.

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Speaker 3: So I'm picturing the folks coming back from their hunting

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Speaker 3: and gathering and the food arrives, and it might just

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Speaker 3: be some tubers. Maybe it was an exceptional day and

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Speaker 3: you caught an animal of whatever size, if you really

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Speaker 3: went nuts and you were willing to climb up a

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Speaker 3: tree and smoke at the bees, you got a little

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Speaker 3: bit of honey. But what I'm hearing is that was

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Speaker 3: everyone clapping and saying hooray, I'm really happy. Or is

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Speaker 3: it just like, oh my god, I won't be starving

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Speaker 3: for another twenty four hours.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think there definitely even were foods back

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Speaker 1: in the evolutionary day that tasted better than others. You know,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned honey, and I think honey has these features

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Speaker 1: of the kind of thing that we're out there looking for.

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Speaker 1: It's really high caloric, you know, very sweet sort of food.

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Speaker 1: But my guess is that most of the time it

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Speaker 1: wasn't really this sort of pleasure thing. It wasn't like

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Speaker 1: we were, you know, going on our hunter gatherer yelp

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Speaker 1: to try to pick their best restaurant, you know, with

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Speaker 1: the best cocktails and food.

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Speaker 2: Like.

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Speaker 1: It was just food, right, And I think we've somehow

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Speaker 1: built food up a lot, in part because you know,

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Speaker 1: it really is a form of pleasure that we can

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Speaker 1: savor in our lives now done well, But I think

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Speaker 1: it wasn't always that. And I think, you know, some

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Speaker 1: of the kind of difficult, challenging relationships that some of

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Speaker 1: us have with food. Now, if we could get back

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Speaker 1: to thinking about food just as fuel, like gasoline that

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Speaker 1: we're putting into our big human meat tanks, and we

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Speaker 1: might end up developing a healthier relationship with eating.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So that's a great s way into what is

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Speaker 2: a healthy relationship to food. I think it's become a buzzword. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: everybody loves to say, especially on Instagram. Itway was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm like really like working on my relationship with you,

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Speaker 2: or I'm really good or whatever. It's so vague at

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Speaker 2: this point that I have no idea what they're talking about.

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Speaker 2: So how do you define a good relationship with food.

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Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I think a good relationship with food

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Speaker 1: is one that you don't think about, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I have, you know, historically been part of diet culture, right,

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Speaker 1: Like I've picked up these norms. I too have a

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Speaker 1: complicated relationship with you know, should I be eating healthier?

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Speaker 1: You know? Is this going to make me fat? Like

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Speaker 1: these kinds of things come in right, even for me.

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Speaker 1: But when I watch people who have what I would

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Speaker 1: think of as a healthy relationship with food, they just

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Speaker 1: eat when they're hungry, and they eat something that seems

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Speaker 1: like it will make their bodies feel decent, and then

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Speaker 1: they don't really think about food very much. So I

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Speaker 1: think kind of just the act of worrying about this

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Speaker 1: healthy relationship with food and making hashtags about it that

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Speaker 1: go on Instagram already, that's signaling like something is a miss, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: no one's hashtagging like I have this great relationship with

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Speaker 1: my like you know, urination or like my body feel warm? Right,

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Speaker 1: Like it's just another urge that we have, is just

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Speaker 1: another need that our bodies have. And so already, as

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Speaker 1: we start asking this question, I think it means we

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Speaker 1: got off track. But I think you know, when we

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Speaker 1: think about a healthy relationship with food, it's one that's

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Speaker 1: not taking up a lot of mental bandwidth. I think

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Speaker 1: when you start having a take up mental bandwidth already,

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Speaker 1: this is problematic. You know, even maybe if it's pleasurable, right,

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Speaker 1: even if you're obsessed with, oh, what I'm going to

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Speaker 1: eat tonight, I'm really excited about this restaurant and things.

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Speaker 1: I think that already is signaling, but you might be

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Speaker 1: kind of getting off track a little bit. So that's

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Speaker 1: I think point number one is you shouldn't be obsessed

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Speaker 1: with it. You shouldn't have to talk about it. But

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Speaker 1: the second thing is I think that it's kind of

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Speaker 1: not an emotion that seems to be like very high arousal,

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Speaker 1: Like you're not feeling anxious or sad or stressed. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of much more one of these neutral emotions. Even

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Speaker 1: when it kind of verges on the positive relationship, like

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Speaker 1: you're savoring your food and you're enjoying it, it's not

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Speaker 1: this like extreme thing. It's kind of just like joy.

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Speaker 1: It's like walking around and seeing the nice flowers. It's

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Speaker 1: like that level of emotion and not one that's taking

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Speaker 1: up a lot of energy and mental bandwidth.

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Speaker 3: Let's add in the texture of food is love, and

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Speaker 3: there's so many cultures where my god, if you told

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Speaker 3: my wife, if you told my mother in law like

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Speaker 3: not to worry about what they're going to serve when

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Speaker 3: we get together for dinner, that would be sort of

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Speaker 3: like a negative.

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Speaker 1: So I think more I was answering Youn's question about

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Speaker 1: the influencer version of a healthy relationship with food. I

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Speaker 1: think if you're paying attention food from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: sort of diet culture and one you have to eat

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Speaker 1: to be healthy, then you have to kind of worry

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Speaker 1: about these sort of more negative emotions, like things like

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Speaker 1: anxiety and so on. Right, But if we stop that,

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Speaker 1: then we can ask, okay, how do we get a

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Speaker 1: more pleasurable relationship with food? And I think that brings

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Speaker 1: us into the healthier versions of cultures that we can

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Speaker 1: have with food, right, because food is really it's super

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Speaker 1: important part of our social connection. Right again, done well?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: I think you know influencer version of orthorexia where you

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Speaker 1: just have your snacks in your bag and you just

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Speaker 1: eat your parents on the way to the That doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: But these you know, recipes that have been part of

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Speaker 1: your culture. For generations, food that's part of rituals that

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Speaker 1: are meaningful both for the social connection and for what

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Speaker 1: they represent in terms of how you're representing the world

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Speaker 1: and sort of life changes. These things can be really essential,

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Speaker 1: but they're often less about the food and more about

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Speaker 1: kind of how we're thinking about the food and what

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Speaker 1: it represents in our lives. Like, my guess is it's

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily you know, if I think back to like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know my grandmother is cooking. My

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Speaker 1: grandmother used to make these cupcakes and things. It's less

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Speaker 1: about what's in the particular cupcake and more the narrative

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Speaker 1: and the stories that I have going with it, the

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Speaker 1: fact that it's been part of this tradition and so on,

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Speaker 1: and so that healthy relationship with food is less about

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Speaker 1: the particular food itself. I don't think anybody cares about

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Speaker 1: the macros that are in the cupcake. It's really about

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Speaker 1: the narrative and the stories and the sort of cultural

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Speaker 1: background that comes with food.

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Speaker 4: How do we reclaim that?

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Speaker 1: I think it's really hard because that healthy relationship comes

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Speaker 1: with being in a culture that thinks about this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and in a lot of ways, we've sort of lost

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Speaker 1: those cultures. You all talk a lot about Michael Polland

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Speaker 1: who has a lot of discussion about kind of how

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Speaker 1: we can get back to a healthier relationship with food

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Speaker 1: and how we should think about our food decisions. You know,

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Speaker 1: he talks about, you know, you should go for food

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Speaker 1: and real food that you're you're like grandmothers would be

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Speaker 1: aware of. But even my grandmother, you know, I was

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Speaker 1: born in the it was a child of the eighties,

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Speaker 1: and already she was, you know, making food out of

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Speaker 1: boxes and doing these things right. Already, the cultural traditions

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Speaker 1: that I think she had grown up with were kind

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Speaker 1: of fading in my you know, American upbringing, and so

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, we've lost a lot of that

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Speaker 1: and we need to start building that back in. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's important both for our happiness but also

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Speaker 1: for our health.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I take Michael Pollan's point to be, if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what a healthy diet is, it's no

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Speaker 1: like one thing or one set of macros. It's often

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Speaker 1: more like the traditional kind of ways that people used

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Speaker 1: to eat kind of no matter what was in it. Right,

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Speaker 1: you take traditional cultures that are much more meat based

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Speaker 1: or much more plant based, and they have, you know,

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Speaker 1: some nuance there, but pretty much all the traditional die

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Speaker 1: it's are better than what I was growing up on

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Speaker 1: out of the box in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like the message of like not thinking

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Speaker 2: or stressing too much about food is really important. But

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Speaker 2: then I feel like, with the food environment that we

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Speaker 2: live in today, it's kind of hard to not think

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Speaker 2: about it and still eat. I think what's good for

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Speaker 2: your body. I have a new roommate that moved in.

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Speaker 2: She loves baking, so now there's just baked goods in

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Speaker 2: the house all the time. And it's like, if I

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Speaker 2: don't consciously think to myself like I probably shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: having this all the time, I just would because they

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Speaker 2: just taste good, do you know what I mean? So,

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Speaker 2: how do you like balance the idea of like these

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Speaker 2: things are everywhere all the time, and even all my

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Speaker 2: social gatherings, I've been noticing like I've just been going

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Speaker 2: out every other day guys and getting food that I

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Speaker 2: know isn't good for you, because I've just been meeting

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Speaker 2: my friends because this summer, and in the back of

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Speaker 2: my mind, I'm like kind of like, oh, like I

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Speaker 2: feel like it's just like happening a lot right now.

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Speaker 2: I don't really like it. I don't really feel like

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Speaker 2: I feel as good. But then I also don't want

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Speaker 2: to be becoming very stressed about it like I used to,

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Speaker 2: and I haven't been. I haven't not been going those

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Speaker 2: social gatherings because there's food there the way I used to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think this is the problem, right is

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Speaker 1: as food becomes something that we get worried about that

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Speaker 1: we're paying more attention to, like that kind of in particular,

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Speaker 1: we might even think of it like a diet mentality,

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Speaker 1: that kind of diety mentality that comes in. Whether it's

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Speaker 1: based on health like really, I just want my body

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Speaker 1: to feel good, or whether it's based on some diet

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Speaker 1: notions like I want to change the size of my

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Speaker 1: body or I want to become fitter or so on.

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Speaker 1: Both of those have a particular psychological set of features,

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Speaker 1: which is like it's making us obsessed with stuff, right

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Speaker 1: like we kind of whether it's a sort of diet

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Speaker 1: mentality or a sort of fitness mentality, neither of them

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Speaker 1: are pretty good when they go along with this sort

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Speaker 1: of anxiousness. And so you know, the kind of anxiousness

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Speaker 1: you're describing about these sort of social events isn't ideal.

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Speaker 1: But then that of course raises the question like, okay,

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Speaker 1: but how do I do that in the environment where

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Speaker 1: there's this hyper palatable food that I know, even if

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Speaker 1: I don't care about, like, even if I'm not in

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Speaker 1: diet head, I still don't want my body to feel

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Speaker 1: super gross right afterwards, right, And so I think part

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Speaker 1: of that is really trying to come to terms with

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Speaker 1: actually paying attention to how these foods make us feel.

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Speaker 1: There's lots of evidence growing that these hyper palatable foods

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Speaker 1: really kind of hijack a certain part of our system,

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Speaker 1: and we often talk about it hijacking our sort of

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Speaker 1: pleasure system what we really like. But I think that's

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Speaker 1: sort of incorrect, because when you get down to it,

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Speaker 1: these foods don't necessarily feel that great if you're paying

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Speaker 1: attention to them. You know, a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: engage in mindful eating exercises sometimes have the realization that

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Speaker 1: whatever food they've been obsessing over, say like Hershey's kisses,

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Speaker 1: they finally eat them and they're like, oh, they're kind

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Speaker 1: of waxy, Like I didn't like in my brain, I

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Speaker 1: had this is this very delicious thing. But when I

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Speaker 1: mindfully really pay attention on what the taste is, I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of not digging it that much. And that plays

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Speaker 1: into this very dumb feature of the way our brains work.

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Speaker 1: It's like the one feature like if I could change

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Speaker 1: the way that this part of the human brain work,

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Speaker 1: I would, which is that there seems to be this

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Speaker 1: weird disconnect in our brains between wanting and liking, and

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Speaker 1: so liking is like I eat the Hershey kiss and

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Speaker 1: how it actually tastes, like what's my actual pleasure response

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Speaker 1: to is it is or whatever? But wanting is different.

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Speaker 1: Wanting is how much I start obsessing about it, how

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Speaker 1: much I want to go after it, how much when

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Speaker 1: I see it add for it, I'm like, oh, that

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Speaker 1: seems really good. You would assume that our brains would

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Speaker 1: be smart, that our brains would put those two circuits together,

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Speaker 1: that we would want only things that we actually liked,

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Speaker 1: But it turns out if you look that is not

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Speaker 1: how brains are organized. There seems to be this interesting

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Speaker 1: disconnect between liking and wanting, and so you can see

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Speaker 1: that most clearly with drugs of addiction. You know, so

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Speaker 1: take somebody who has a heroin addiction. That person has

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Speaker 1: a really strong wanting for heroin. Right, they're going to

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Speaker 1: you know, rob their family, get into all kinds of

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Speaker 1: bad behaviors to go after heroin. But because their bodies

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Speaker 1: are habituated to it, when they actually experience the drug,

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Speaker 1: they don't really even like it anymore. Right, They're not

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Speaker 1: getting the same blast that they got maybe the first

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Speaker 1: time they got it, and so that already shows us

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Speaker 1: that there's this disconnect. But I think this is the

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Speaker 1: same kind of thing that's happening with hyperpalatable food. Right,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, your roommate makes the bake goods and

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Speaker 1: you see them on the table, and your wanting system

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Speaker 1: is like go go go like take that, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: but maybe when you eat it, I guess you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm like no, no, Like shade to your room. She

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Speaker 1: really delicious, but it might not be as good as

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Speaker 1: your right. And what's frustrating about the wanting liking system

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Speaker 1: is I think it runs in reverse too. I think

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Speaker 1: there's lots of stuff that we like that the wanting

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Speaker 1: system just hasn't latched onto. Take exercise. Right, we were

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Speaker 1: just talking before we started about you know, all your

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Speaker 1: dead lifts and going up right, Like, I have never

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Speaker 1: had my wanting system like tell me to go to

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Speaker 1: the gym or tell me to do dead lifts. But

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure most of the time I engage in

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Speaker 1: like a hard plates class or a hard workout, my

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Speaker 1: liking system fires to that. In the end, when I'm

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Speaker 1: leaving the gym, I'm having like I'm in a sort

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Speaker 1: of euphoria of like that felt really good, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't translate into this sort of wanting to go after things.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's true for healthier foods too. Right there,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're in the middle of summer when we're

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Speaker 1: having this conversation, and right now, like the peaches are

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Speaker 1: just like so good. I had a nectary in the

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Speaker 1: other day that was like on the verge of orgasmic,

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Speaker 1: but like, oh, I do not still do not have

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Speaker 1: the wanting for those nectaries and the same way I

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Speaker 1: would for the bake goods. And so I think understanding

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Speaker 1: the way this system works can help us a little bit. First,

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Speaker 1: it just gives us some knowledge about when I'm experiencing

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Speaker 1: this wanting. It might not be an honest signal I'm

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Speaker 1: probably not gonna like this as much as my brain

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Speaker 1: is telling me, my mind's kind of lying to me.

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Speaker 1: But in another way, it can cause us to really

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Speaker 1: start to pay attention more to the things we really

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Speaker 1: do like. And while it is true that the wanting

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Speaker 1: and liking systems are a little bit disconnected, they can

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Speaker 1: sort of update a little bit, like when you actually

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Speaker 1: start to pay attention to your liking. And we know

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Speaker 1: this from work by folks like Hetty Kobert, who's a

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Speaker 1: colleague of mine at Yale who studies drugs of addiction,

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Speaker 1: where she gets, for example, cigarette smokers to really pay

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Speaker 1: attention when they're smoking, to like do you like the

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Speaker 1: way this feels? To like the way this smells? You know,

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Speaker 1: do you like the way this feels? And people often

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Speaker 1: when they start to pay attention like, actually, this feels

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Speaker 1: kind of gross. I don't like the smell of that.

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Speaker 1: I don't like you know, I don't like what this

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Speaker 1: is doing to my body when I think about that.

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Speaker 1: And what she finds is that that can gradually start

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Speaker 1: to update the wanting system, not perfectly, but when you

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Speaker 1: really start to pay attention to like, hang on, this

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Speaker 1: was not rewarding, I like really didn't like this. Then

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Speaker 1: it can kind of do the update, and the same

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Speaker 1: with really mindfully paying attention to the healthy food. If

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Speaker 1: you really focus on the nectarine and think about it again,

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Speaker 1: you're not probably going to crave it. In the same

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Speaker 1: way your dopamine system goes to these highly palatable foods

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Speaker 1: that are literally engineered by engineers in a laboratory to

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, be like the heroine, but you

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Speaker 1: can kind of get your wanting system a little bit

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Speaker 1: more on board with going for it.

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Speaker 2: So with other drugs of addiction, the biggest thing that

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Speaker 2: is always like so annoyed me is that, like you,

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Speaker 2: the ideal would be to like not have them at all,

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Speaker 2: right for the rest of your life. But with food, like,

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Speaker 2: it's impossible to do that because you're never going to

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Speaker 2: be able to like never have hyper palable food again, right,

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Speaker 2: unless you like live super super restrictively.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I think and I can't imagine anyone honestly

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Speaker 1: doing that right out anxiety, right, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: there's you know, there's lots of talk these days in

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Speaker 1: the field of psychology about orthorexia, right, which for listeners

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Speaker 1: that don't know, is this again, it's not a DSM,

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Speaker 1: like you know, like categorist official disorder, but it's one

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Speaker 1: that leads to people experiencing a lot of anxiety where

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Speaker 1: you're just really obsessed with eating healthy foods and so ostensibly,

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Speaker 1: you know, if your dietician or nutrition looked at your

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Speaker 1: what you were eating, they might be like, oh, that's great,

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Speaker 1: like you look so healthy, But in practice, you feel

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Speaker 1: really dysregulated. You feel like you're on this kind of

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Speaker 1: like verge of a binge all the time. It's taking

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00:17:40,956 --> 00:17:43,596
Speaker 1: up all your airtime for you. It doesn't feel good.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that's the problem, is that living

398
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Speaker 1: in this environment of food being so hyper palatable, it's

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Speaker 1: so hard to pay attention without dipping into the orthorexia.

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Speaker 2: I just I am such an all or nothing person,

401
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Speaker 2: Like I would just so much rather have like not

402
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Speaker 2: care at all, or like super care than like kind of.

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Speaker 1: Care, do you know what I mean, totally have my

404
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Speaker 1: friend who says, I wish, you know, the soilent companies

405
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Speaker 1: would just like make the thing that was really healthy

406
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Speaker 1: and we would never But that's I think we need

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Speaker 1: to get back to the question that Eddie mentioned right,

408
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Speaker 1: which is to get back to kind of having real,

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Speaker 1: true pleasure in food. Beyond just the hyperpalatability, Right, can

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Speaker 1: we get back to like the way these things were

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Speaker 1: created over time, Like maybe like slowly creating healthy foods, right,

412
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Speaker 1: embedding them in our cultures and in our rituals. Even

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Speaker 1: if that's sort of starting new cultures and rituals, What

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Speaker 1: does that look like?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: If you build up that narrative in that history, it

417
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Speaker 1: can help there be other things that maybe don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: replace the hyper palatable foods. Right, We're not going to

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Speaker 1: like wipe them out of our culture, but it gives

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Speaker 1: us an alternative of things to pay attention to that

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Speaker 1: might be kind of healthier in terms of our bodies too.

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Speaker 3: Is there a kind of like a literacy around food?

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Speaker 3: And what I'm thinking of is, I'm sitting here with

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Speaker 3: a concert pianist to my right. I'm effectively musically illiterate.

425
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Speaker 3: I've never learned how to play an instrument. I will

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Speaker 3: listen to music. I have to remind myself to do it.

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Speaker 4: It's all, oh my well, and.

428
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Speaker 3: What's like who while I'm exercising, And I would say

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Speaker 3: I'm happier if I'm listening to music, but I'm musically illiterate.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I Okay, is the same with food, Like,

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Speaker 3: there are some people for whom that's all they focus on.

432
00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:28,636
Speaker 3: It can be pathological, as you're pointing out, and then

433
00:19:28,636 --> 00:19:30,836
Speaker 3: there's others that could be the happiest people I know,

434
00:19:30,876 --> 00:19:33,196
Speaker 3: and they just go like food just doesn't resonate with me.

435
00:19:33,876 --> 00:19:35,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's it's complicated. I mean, I think,

436
00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:38,516
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the research really suggests about

437
00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:41,756
Speaker 1: the narrative that we tell ourselves and again not really

438
00:19:41,756 --> 00:19:44,076
Speaker 1: what's in the food. You know. One of my favorite

439
00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:47,036
Speaker 1: examples of this that shows kind of how funny these

440
00:19:47,116 --> 00:19:50,316
Speaker 1: narratives can be looked at individuals who are paying attention

441
00:19:50,396 --> 00:19:53,516
Speaker 1: to different wines. Right, you're tasting wines, right, and you're

442
00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:56,236
Speaker 1: doing that, for example, like in an fMRI scanner, so

443
00:19:56,236 --> 00:19:58,156
Speaker 1: we can see what's happening in your brain as you're

444
00:19:58,156 --> 00:20:00,516
Speaker 1: tasting these things. And what you find is that the

445
00:20:00,636 --> 00:20:04,076
Speaker 1: simple label that you're showing people of the price of

446
00:20:04,116 --> 00:20:07,356
Speaker 1: this wine affects whether or not they taste it. You know,

447
00:20:07,476 --> 00:20:10,316
Speaker 1: literally the reward centers in their brain firing more as

448
00:20:10,356 --> 00:20:12,756
Speaker 1: they taste it. And so you can give someone exactly

449
00:20:12,796 --> 00:20:16,036
Speaker 1: the same wine and their brains will fire more for

450
00:20:16,116 --> 00:20:19,276
Speaker 1: that same wine. If it's labeled as more expensive, right,

451
00:20:19,796 --> 00:20:22,036
Speaker 1: And so that tells us something interesting, right, It tells

452
00:20:22,076 --> 00:20:24,196
Speaker 1: us it's not what we're tasting, it's kind of what

453
00:20:24,276 --> 00:20:27,356
Speaker 1: we're thinking about as we're tasting it. There's a similar

454
00:20:27,396 --> 00:20:29,956
Speaker 1: paper about tasting coke and pepsi, and so a lot

455
00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:32,196
Speaker 1: of people say that they like coke better. I also

456
00:20:32,316 --> 00:20:34,276
Speaker 1: like say that I like coke better. But if you

457
00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,196
Speaker 1: put people in the scanner and you don't tell them

458
00:20:36,196 --> 00:20:39,276
Speaker 1: which is which, people's reward centers fire more for pepsi,

459
00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:41,076
Speaker 1: I think, just because pepsi actually has more sugar in

460
00:20:41,116 --> 00:20:43,676
Speaker 1: it than the whole and coke. But if you tell

461
00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:45,996
Speaker 1: people it's pepsi as they're drinking it, then it will

462
00:20:46,036 --> 00:20:47,836
Speaker 1: fire less. So if they don't know what it is,

463
00:20:47,836 --> 00:20:49,396
Speaker 1: they like it more than coke. But if you tell

464
00:20:49,396 --> 00:20:50,356
Speaker 1: them it's pepsi, they're like.

465
00:20:50,356 --> 00:20:53,716
Speaker 4: Oh, story sets the stage.

466
00:20:53,916 --> 00:20:56,276
Speaker 1: And I think that's powerful, right, I mean, I think

467
00:20:56,316 --> 00:20:59,396
Speaker 1: it means that we can set our own stories. Right.

468
00:20:59,556 --> 00:21:02,396
Speaker 1: You know, so if your roommate's bringing out the cookies

469
00:21:02,436 --> 00:21:04,556
Speaker 1: that she bakes and she just says, oh, they're cookies

470
00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:08,036
Speaker 1: that might not taste as delicious as if you say,

471
00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:10,676
Speaker 1: these are my grandmother's secret rest if you deck get it,

472
00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:15,636
Speaker 1: chocolate cookies, Like just labeling something differently actually does make

473
00:21:15,676 --> 00:21:17,756
Speaker 1: it more delicious to us, right, And so there's there's

474
00:21:17,836 --> 00:21:19,836
Speaker 1: kind of funny hacks that we can engage in to

475
00:21:19,916 --> 00:21:21,116
Speaker 1: make things more delicious.

476
00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:22,996
Speaker 2: Well, I wonder if part of like the reason I

477
00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:25,796
Speaker 2: feel that way about food is because like for most

478
00:21:25,836 --> 00:21:28,916
Speaker 2: of my life, really food was just like like I

479
00:21:28,956 --> 00:21:30,316
Speaker 2: was trying to eat less of it, like that was

480
00:21:30,316 --> 00:21:31,916
Speaker 2: its only purpose, you know what I mean. So I

481
00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:33,396
Speaker 2: don't know if like part of it is that, Like

482
00:21:33,596 --> 00:21:36,116
Speaker 2: I think one time I saw a nutritionis she's kind

483
00:21:36,116 --> 00:21:39,396
Speaker 2: of like kind of nutritionis kind of psychologist, and she

484
00:21:39,716 --> 00:21:42,476
Speaker 2: was like, you have a lot of fear associated with food,

485
00:21:42,836 --> 00:21:44,996
Speaker 2: and you're a migdala is really that miguala is the

486
00:21:44,996 --> 00:21:46,756
Speaker 2: part of the brain, guys, that's like the fear kind

487
00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:48,916
Speaker 2: of anxiety center of the brain, and it's the kind

488
00:21:48,916 --> 00:21:50,356
Speaker 2: of the oldest part of the brain. It's like very

489
00:21:50,436 --> 00:21:52,316
Speaker 2: very deep in your brain anyways, and she was saying,

490
00:21:52,356 --> 00:21:54,476
Speaker 2: like you just have all these connections between food and

491
00:21:54,476 --> 00:21:57,556
Speaker 2: you're amygdala, and like we need to like rewire to

492
00:21:57,636 --> 00:22:00,996
Speaker 2: have food and like pleasure associated together, not just food

493
00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:01,356
Speaker 2: and fear.

494
00:22:01,436 --> 00:22:03,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think there's really something to that, right,

495
00:22:03,436 --> 00:22:05,596
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you really have like a

496
00:22:05,956 --> 00:22:08,996
Speaker 1: clinically you know, diagnosed eating disorder, you know, you're building

497
00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:12,356
Speaker 1: in so many negative emotions that come with food, whether

498
00:22:12,396 --> 00:22:14,436
Speaker 1: it's about eating too much of it or which kinds

499
00:22:14,476 --> 00:22:16,276
Speaker 1: of it? Right, Like, it means that you're not no

500
00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:19,476
Speaker 1: longer thinking of food as this like fuel that's neutral,

501
00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:21,516
Speaker 1: or like a friend that you could savor, that you

502
00:22:21,596 --> 00:22:25,316
Speaker 1: might like, but is this negative, scary, like potentially harmful,

503
00:22:25,396 --> 00:22:28,076
Speaker 1: threatening thing. And so I think the process of trying

504
00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:31,316
Speaker 1: to engage a little bit more with food mindfully, you know,

505
00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:33,996
Speaker 1: might be might be pretty helpful, you know, because we

506
00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:36,836
Speaker 1: do know that both again, the stories we tell ourselves

507
00:22:36,876 --> 00:22:39,076
Speaker 1: about food matter, and so if you have a negative story,

508
00:22:39,116 --> 00:22:40,396
Speaker 1: that's only going to make it worse. But if you

509
00:22:40,436 --> 00:22:42,516
Speaker 1: have a positive story, that might be better. But also

510
00:22:42,556 --> 00:22:45,556
Speaker 1: the rituals that we have around food matter to right.

511
00:22:45,716 --> 00:22:48,996
Speaker 1: You know, a wine drunk and a really nice wine

512
00:22:48,996 --> 00:22:52,156
Speaker 1: glass at a beautiful restaurant's gonna taste different than you know,

513
00:22:52,156 --> 00:22:54,156
Speaker 1: out of a bag, like you know, I don't know,

514
00:22:54,196 --> 00:22:57,156
Speaker 1: in a dorm room somewhere like some ivy league dorm room, right,

515
00:22:57,236 --> 00:22:58,796
Speaker 1: you know, And so I think we can try to

516
00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:01,716
Speaker 1: develop different rituals to come up with food and a

517
00:23:01,716 --> 00:23:04,596
Speaker 1: lot of you know, therapeutic interventions for eating disorders as

518
00:23:04,676 --> 00:23:07,596
Speaker 1: people are eating more. You know, that's one of the things. Right,

519
00:23:07,636 --> 00:23:09,756
Speaker 1: It's like, let's let's try to kind of make this

520
00:23:09,796 --> 00:23:11,836
Speaker 1: thing not scary. Let's put it in a pretty dish,

521
00:23:12,156 --> 00:23:14,316
Speaker 1: you know, set thee have a nice ritual about it.

522
00:23:14,516 --> 00:23:16,356
Speaker 1: You really take a deep breath before you eat it,

523
00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:18,756
Speaker 1: really try to pay attention to what does this taste like?

524
00:23:18,876 --> 00:23:20,436
Speaker 1: You know, how would I describe this?

525
00:23:20,916 --> 00:23:21,196
Speaker 2: Like that?

526
00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:23,436
Speaker 1: Kind of mindful eating can at least make you more

527
00:23:23,516 --> 00:23:26,636
Speaker 1: pay more attention to how things taste. And often when

528
00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:29,836
Speaker 1: you're doing that, you can notice the pleasure that's associated

529
00:23:29,876 --> 00:23:30,116
Speaker 1: with that.

530
00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:33,036
Speaker 4: So I have like several thoughts that may be related.

531
00:23:33,476 --> 00:23:34,316
Speaker 4: Let me give it a truck.

532
00:23:35,916 --> 00:23:38,236
Speaker 3: So once a year, I have this joyous obligation of

533
00:23:38,276 --> 00:23:40,796
Speaker 3: going out to the healthy Kitchens.

534
00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:43,276
Speaker 4: Healthy Kitchens. Course, it's a NAPA valley.

535
00:23:44,836 --> 00:23:48,116
Speaker 3: It is at the Culinary Institute of America and part

536
00:23:48,156 --> 00:23:50,036
Speaker 3: of it you're in the middle of wine country, and

537
00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:51,876
Speaker 3: part of it they actually have these tables set up

538
00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:53,676
Speaker 3: and you can go from table to table and do

539
00:23:53,716 --> 00:23:57,916
Speaker 3: a wine tasting. And my first reaction when I tasted

540
00:23:57,956 --> 00:24:01,876
Speaker 3: some of these remarkable wines that cost like one hundred

541
00:24:01,876 --> 00:24:05,596
Speaker 3: dollars plus per bottle was like, oh, it's like velvet.

542
00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,636
Speaker 3: And I remember calling my wife and saying, remember how

543
00:24:08,676 --> 00:24:11,956
Speaker 3: I said, I don't like wine. I don't like cheap wine.

544
00:24:13,356 --> 00:24:15,876
Speaker 3: But what I'm learning from you, Laurie, is that what

545
00:24:16,276 --> 00:24:19,636
Speaker 3: sold the wine to me was again the setting and

546
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:23,116
Speaker 3: the story that is it the venter is that they

547
00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:27,596
Speaker 3: were actually standing there pouring their their creation and setting

548
00:24:27,596 --> 00:24:29,836
Speaker 3: me up for this experience. And it was sort of like,

549
00:24:29,876 --> 00:24:31,836
Speaker 3: of course I was going to I mean, first off,

550
00:24:32,236 --> 00:24:35,476
Speaker 3: it really is objectively better. Put me in an FMR.

551
00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:39,636
Speaker 4: We could test it. I'm sure someone has. I'll sign

552
00:24:39,716 --> 00:24:40,476
Speaker 4: up for that study.

553
00:24:40,876 --> 00:24:43,156
Speaker 3: But I guess what I'm learning is that it's really

554
00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:45,436
Speaker 3: the setting, the story.

555
00:24:46,476 --> 00:24:49,716
Speaker 4: Can we do that to get ourselves eating better?

556
00:24:50,116 --> 00:24:51,876
Speaker 1: I think so? And I think you know, you know,

557
00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:55,316
Speaker 1: there's some evidence that even right, the palatability of you know,

558
00:24:55,716 --> 00:24:58,156
Speaker 1: not so palatable foods, right, you know, the healthier like

559
00:24:58,356 --> 00:25:00,196
Speaker 1: just a bunch of greens or roots or these kinds

560
00:25:00,236 --> 00:25:02,956
Speaker 1: of things, just the setting can make a lot of difference, right.

561
00:25:02,996 --> 00:25:05,196
Speaker 1: You know, if you walk into you know, one of

562
00:25:05,236 --> 00:25:08,676
Speaker 1: these like bougie New York kind of vegan places where

563
00:25:08,676 --> 00:25:10,556
Speaker 1: the stuff has plated really well, and you know you're

564
00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:12,836
Speaker 1: paying a lot of money, the kale that's there is

565
00:25:12,836 --> 00:25:15,596
Speaker 1: different than the kale that I you know, grab the supermarket,

566
00:25:15,676 --> 00:25:18,396
Speaker 1: like just to me to taste differently, right, So I

567
00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:21,796
Speaker 1: think that matters. I think who we are eating with

568
00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:24,396
Speaker 1: seems to matter too. You know there's lots of top

569
00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:25,596
Speaker 1: account what's that.

570
00:25:25,676 --> 00:25:27,076
Speaker 2: My TikTok account? I'm just scrolling.

571
00:25:27,356 --> 00:25:30,316
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is part of yeah, yeah, but I

572
00:25:30,316 --> 00:25:32,436
Speaker 1: think but you bring up a really important point, right,

573
00:25:32,476 --> 00:25:34,916
Speaker 1: which is that you know, we act like these healthier

574
00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:38,236
Speaker 1: foods don't taste good, but in practice we're not really

575
00:25:38,236 --> 00:25:41,076
Speaker 1: giving them the sort of mindfulness benefit of the doubt

576
00:25:41,076 --> 00:25:44,196
Speaker 1: when we're engaging with them. You know, I was joking about,

577
00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:45,996
Speaker 1: you know, the snacks that you have in your bag

578
00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:48,476
Speaker 1: kind of thing earlier. But you know, as I've made

579
00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:51,236
Speaker 1: a foray into trying to eat more healthfully again, not

580
00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:53,076
Speaker 1: for a weight loss or just like to you know,

581
00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:55,476
Speaker 1: make my body feel good. Sometimes that means eating on

582
00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:57,396
Speaker 1: the go. Sometimes that means grabbing you know, a few

583
00:25:57,436 --> 00:26:00,076
Speaker 1: carrot sticks that are in my bag, and that's not

584
00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:03,396
Speaker 1: often eating and the prettiest way possible with the best

585
00:26:03,476 --> 00:26:05,956
Speaker 1: narrative possible. It's just kind of like getting the fuel

586
00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:08,196
Speaker 1: in to go, right. And so it does feel like

587
00:26:08,236 --> 00:26:11,236
Speaker 1: we're sometimes because we're so busy and because we're so

588
00:26:11,316 --> 00:26:16,036
Speaker 1: easily distracted, missing out on these opportunities to really enjoy food. Well,

589
00:26:16,196 --> 00:26:18,996
Speaker 1: you know, one of the main complaints of people who

590
00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:22,796
Speaker 1: try to engage in more mindful eating is just like

591
00:26:23,196 --> 00:26:26,836
Speaker 1: it's boring, yes, Like you're like like I have to

592
00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:29,276
Speaker 1: just eat and not watch you know, like not look

593
00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:31,556
Speaker 1: at my TikTok videos or not watch root Pul's drag

594
00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:34,996
Speaker 1: race or whatever. It's like what, you know, Like how

595
00:26:35,356 --> 00:26:37,636
Speaker 1: am I expected to just eat? Right? Like? It just

596
00:26:37,676 --> 00:26:40,196
Speaker 1: seems so boring, right, And I think that tells us something, Right,

597
00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:42,476
Speaker 1: even if we're eating a hyper palatable food, it sometimes

598
00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:44,876
Speaker 1: seems boring, right, And that really tells us it wasn't

599
00:26:44,916 --> 00:26:47,076
Speaker 1: about the food, It wasn't about our enjoyment. It was

600
00:26:47,116 --> 00:26:49,396
Speaker 1: really about the wanting of the food, right. The getting

601
00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:51,916
Speaker 1: of it and enjoying didn't really matter as much as.

602
00:26:52,196 --> 00:26:55,836
Speaker 3: The advertisements set the wanting.

603
00:26:55,996 --> 00:27:00,036
Speaker 4: I mean, the double bacon cheeseburger, make it your way.

604
00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:02,076
Speaker 1: I mean part of them is that, you know, like

605
00:27:02,156 --> 00:27:06,516
Speaker 1: most advertisements, they're often very inaccurate. Google how companies make

606
00:27:06,556 --> 00:27:09,796
Speaker 1: these palatable food exactly. Yeah, you know, like ice cream

607
00:27:09,836 --> 00:27:12,836
Speaker 1: with food ads is actually just like Crisco or like

608
00:27:13,276 --> 00:27:15,436
Speaker 1: because they can't it would melt under the lights, right,

609
00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:17,276
Speaker 1: and so you know, so a lot of them are

610
00:27:17,316 --> 00:27:19,516
Speaker 1: kind of faked. But yeah, I think those things are

611
00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:22,916
Speaker 1: created to really amp up our wanting system.

612
00:27:23,076 --> 00:27:25,476
Speaker 2: I mean, it's even like I have an association with Starbucks.

613
00:27:25,556 --> 00:27:28,276
Speaker 2: I've loved Starbucks since I was like fifteen. I've been

614
00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:31,156
Speaker 2: a gold member since that age anyways, and so I

615
00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:33,076
Speaker 2: used to go there every day, and like now I

616
00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:35,636
Speaker 2: don't say I can't afford it anymore, but even when

617
00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:37,876
Speaker 2: I go, it's just like, oh my, oh, this latte

618
00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:40,476
Speaker 2: is so good. It's so much better than that. And

619
00:27:40,516 --> 00:27:43,396
Speaker 2: everybody hates Starbucks coffee. People that actually coffee are like

620
00:27:43,436 --> 00:27:46,436
Speaker 2: Starbucks is not good. And it's just like the even

621
00:27:46,476 --> 00:27:49,836
Speaker 2: the brand of Starbucks. Like I just love the idea

622
00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:52,076
Speaker 2: of I'm going to get my Starbucks, if that makes sense.

623
00:27:52,116 --> 00:27:53,476
Speaker 2: Just it's something I grew up with and it's so

624
00:27:53,516 --> 00:27:54,116
Speaker 2: comforting to.

625
00:27:54,076 --> 00:27:56,236
Speaker 1: Me, and even branding right can matter a lot. You know,

626
00:27:56,276 --> 00:27:58,476
Speaker 1: I mentioned this coke and pepsi, you know again, Yeah,

627
00:27:58,556 --> 00:28:01,196
Speaker 1: when we drink it, the neural activation fire is more

628
00:28:01,236 --> 00:28:04,476
Speaker 1: for pepsi, But knowing it's pepsi versus coke makes us

629
00:28:04,516 --> 00:28:07,116
Speaker 1: think really differently about it. I think knowing something Starbucks

630
00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:09,556
Speaker 1: makes us think think differently about it. And I think

631
00:28:09,636 --> 00:28:11,436
Speaker 1: this gets also back to you know, we were talking

632
00:28:11,436 --> 00:28:14,636
Speaker 1: about why are these hyperpalatable foods, you know, so addictive?

633
00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:17,316
Speaker 1: Why do they kind of trigger this wanting system so much?

634
00:28:17,476 --> 00:28:18,876
Speaker 1: And I think part of it is that, like the

635
00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:21,876
Speaker 1: not so hyperpalatable foods, they don't tend to have the

636
00:28:21,956 --> 00:28:25,196
Speaker 1: marketers or the brand now, like my nectarine from the

637
00:28:25,236 --> 00:28:28,156
Speaker 1: Farmer's Market doesn't come with, like, you know, a logo

638
00:28:28,236 --> 00:28:31,196
Speaker 1: that I associate with that nectarine that's bright that you know,

639
00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:35,516
Speaker 1: triggers my memories about eating previous nectarines. It's just a nectarine, right,

640
00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:38,436
Speaker 1: And so I think that's that's one of the things

641
00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:40,676
Speaker 1: that we're pushing against as we try to engage in

642
00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:43,276
Speaker 1: eating more healthily, is that most of the healthy stuff

643
00:28:43,756 --> 00:28:47,116
Speaker 1: just doesn't have any of that kind of branding narrative.

644
00:28:47,156 --> 00:28:49,276
Speaker 1: Nuance that gets our wanting systems and.

645
00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:51,556
Speaker 2: No health claims on the packaging too. So I think

646
00:28:51,676 --> 00:28:53,236
Speaker 2: we had a figure in our book that was like

647
00:28:53,476 --> 00:28:56,036
Speaker 2: the amounts of money spent on like food marketing by

648
00:28:56,116 --> 00:28:58,596
Speaker 2: food companies, and it was like billions of dollars. And

649
00:28:58,636 --> 00:29:01,596
Speaker 2: then the amounts of money spent on like agriculture marketings,

650
00:29:01,756 --> 00:29:04,316
Speaker 2: like marketing vegetables basically, and it was like two hundred million,

651
00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:06,196
Speaker 2: and it was like less than one percent of the

652
00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:10,196
Speaker 2: marketing budget or whatever. Also, all the packaging in the supermarket,

653
00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:11,716
Speaker 2: if you look at the packaging, you would think the

654
00:29:11,716 --> 00:29:14,716
Speaker 2: healthiest food is in the middle of the supermarket, right,

655
00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:18,396
Speaker 2: and then all the vegetables have zero packaging. So it's like,

656
00:29:18,476 --> 00:29:19,956
Speaker 2: I don't know, it is all very deceptive.

657
00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:33,836
Speaker 3: We'll be right back, and we're back with Professor Laurie

658
00:29:33,876 --> 00:29:37,476
Speaker 3: Santos of the Happiness Lab, a professor of psychology at

659
00:29:37,556 --> 00:29:38,476
Speaker 3: Yale University.

660
00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:41,356
Speaker 2: The other thing I wanted to ask you about was

661
00:29:41,916 --> 00:29:45,516
Speaker 2: weather restriction makes the wanting part even more mismatch with

662
00:29:45,556 --> 00:29:49,276
Speaker 2: the liking because I remember when I was like, oh,

663
00:29:49,396 --> 00:29:51,116
Speaker 2: I can't eat this, that and the other. The only

664
00:29:51,116 --> 00:29:52,436
Speaker 2: thing I was allowed to eat at the end of

665
00:29:52,476 --> 00:29:54,036
Speaker 2: the week. That was like, my treat thing was Halo

666
00:29:54,116 --> 00:29:55,956
Speaker 2: Top ice cream, which is like the high protein ice cream.

667
00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:57,996
Speaker 2: If you don't know itdy, it's like it's like ice

668
00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:02,436
Speaker 2: cream with protein powder. Yeah, okay, everybody says it's terrible.

669
00:30:02,516 --> 00:30:04,996
Speaker 2: Because I was having no other treats, I was like,

670
00:30:05,116 --> 00:30:07,116
Speaker 2: Halo Top is the best thing on the planet. And

671
00:30:07,116 --> 00:30:09,956
Speaker 2: remember I'd wait all week for my and I was like,

672
00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:11,476
Speaker 2: I can have a whole pint because it's only three

673
00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:13,796
Speaker 2: hundred whatever calories. And then I would get it and

674
00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:15,756
Speaker 2: I'd be like, this is like not good. Why did

675
00:30:15,836 --> 00:30:17,316
Speaker 2: I wait all week? But I would eat the whole things.

676
00:30:17,316 --> 00:30:18,636
Speaker 2: I was like, I waited all week for this. I

677
00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:20,316
Speaker 2: have to eat, you know what I mean?

678
00:30:20,396 --> 00:30:22,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think your liking system was more honest, maybe

679
00:30:22,876 --> 00:30:25,236
Speaker 1: about the Halo Top, but yeah, I mean I think

680
00:30:25,276 --> 00:30:27,996
Speaker 1: you know. So, another kind of dumb feature in the

681
00:30:27,996 --> 00:30:31,196
Speaker 1: brain is that our brain really doesn't have any way

682
00:30:30,876 --> 00:30:34,636
Speaker 1: to kind of tell itself not to do something. So

683
00:30:34,796 --> 00:30:36,756
Speaker 1: take like, you know, let's get back to sort of

684
00:30:36,836 --> 00:30:38,596
Speaker 1: drugs of addiction. Like you're walking down the street and

685
00:30:38,636 --> 00:30:42,076
Speaker 1: you're a smoker and you see a non smoking sign, right, Ostensibly,

686
00:30:42,156 --> 00:30:44,956
Speaker 1: the sign is telling you not to smoke, but we

687
00:30:44,996 --> 00:30:48,236
Speaker 1: don't really have any representation in our brain for not smoke.

688
00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:51,596
Speaker 1: What our brain sees is smoking, and it tries to

689
00:30:51,636 --> 00:30:54,236
Speaker 1: shut that down. So it turns out that if you

690
00:30:54,316 --> 00:30:58,556
Speaker 1: look at the cravings that smokers experience, they experience more

691
00:30:58,636 --> 00:31:01,916
Speaker 1: craving in the presence of no smoking signs Oh my god.

692
00:31:01,956 --> 00:31:03,476
Speaker 1: And the reason is, like you just they're just like

693
00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:05,396
Speaker 1: walking down the street, maybe not thinking about smoking, and

694
00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:07,236
Speaker 1: they look and they're like smoking. Oh wait, don't do that.

695
00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:09,916
Speaker 1: But what's in their brain is like smoking, smoke, right.

696
00:31:10,396 --> 00:31:14,956
Speaker 1: I think that insight tells us why restricting often comes

697
00:31:14,996 --> 00:31:17,596
Speaker 1: with binges. Why In the words of someone who's been

698
00:31:17,596 --> 00:31:20,076
Speaker 1: on my podcast a lot, Andrea Walker, who studies mindful eating,

699
00:31:20,116 --> 00:31:22,476
Speaker 1: she calls it the diet riot roller coaster, the diets

700
00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:24,996
Speaker 1: often go with the riots and part because just the

701
00:31:25,116 --> 00:31:28,956
Speaker 1: act of telling yourself don't have it usually comes with

702
00:31:29,316 --> 00:31:31,796
Speaker 1: you thinking about having it. Right, So take your halo

703
00:31:31,836 --> 00:31:33,436
Speaker 1: top right, You're like, I'm not gonna have it till

704
00:31:33,436 --> 00:31:34,476
Speaker 1: the end of the week. I'm not gonna have it

705
00:31:34,476 --> 00:31:35,796
Speaker 1: till the end of a week. But your brain is

706
00:31:35,836 --> 00:31:38,556
Speaker 1: just like halo top, halo top, and like there's pressure

707
00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:40,636
Speaker 1: is to like kind of squish it down. But really

708
00:31:40,636 --> 00:31:43,516
Speaker 1: what it's thinking about is that food. And so a

709
00:31:43,636 --> 00:31:45,996
Speaker 1: better way to kind of get out of that restriction

710
00:31:46,436 --> 00:31:50,636
Speaker 1: mindset is actually to find the healthier food that you like.

711
00:31:51,236 --> 00:31:52,956
Speaker 1: You know, so instead of like, oh I can't I

712
00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:55,636
Speaker 1: just got to wait on the halotop, no halotop, no halotop.

713
00:31:55,876 --> 00:31:58,436
Speaker 1: If you thought like, ooh, today you're like really good

714
00:31:58,436 --> 00:32:01,516
Speaker 1: blueberries that just came from the supermarket, or like I

715
00:32:01,516 --> 00:32:03,756
Speaker 1: got these almonds that are like so fresh and I'm

716
00:32:03,756 --> 00:32:06,436
Speaker 1: excited about them. Right, thinking about the thing that you

717
00:32:06,476 --> 00:32:09,036
Speaker 1: actually want to do rather than the thing that you're

718
00:32:09,236 --> 00:32:12,116
Speaker 1: not supposed to do can be quite helpful. But yeah,

719
00:32:12,196 --> 00:32:15,316
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, pretty much every available study of

720
00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:18,716
Speaker 1: binge eating suggests it doesn't come from nowhere. It comes

721
00:32:18,716 --> 00:32:21,796
Speaker 1: from having a mindset of restriction. Right, That's what's kind

722
00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:24,916
Speaker 1: of leading people to. People don't necessarily binge unless they

723
00:32:24,956 --> 00:32:27,196
Speaker 1: also have a even in their head, if they're not

724
00:32:27,236 --> 00:32:29,076
Speaker 1: acting on it, this urge that they're not supposed to

725
00:32:29,116 --> 00:32:31,116
Speaker 1: do or these are the things they're not supposed to eat.

726
00:32:31,396 --> 00:32:33,676
Speaker 4: I love this list of dumb things our brains do.

727
00:32:34,516 --> 00:32:37,276
Speaker 1: Usual. My podcast is all about just like things that

728
00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:39,476
Speaker 1: Laurie think is stupidly designed in the brain.

729
00:32:39,596 --> 00:32:42,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, Laurie's going to come out with like a human

730
00:32:42,236 --> 00:32:45,316
Speaker 2: brain two point zero that we can all transplant some point.

731
00:32:45,556 --> 00:32:47,156
Speaker 2: The other thing I want to ask you about binge

732
00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:49,756
Speaker 2: eating is that isn't it true that binges also serve

733
00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:53,356
Speaker 2: some sort of emotion regulation purpose? And we cited a

734
00:32:53,356 --> 00:32:55,916
Speaker 2: few studies that were interesting in our book that kind

735
00:32:55,956 --> 00:32:59,676
Speaker 2: of made binge eating analogous to food addiction, And it's

736
00:32:59,676 --> 00:33:02,556
Speaker 2: said that the research wasn't really conclusive on whether or

737
00:33:02,636 --> 00:33:04,756
Speaker 2: not food addiction is binge eating, whether or not food

738
00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:07,556
Speaker 2: adiction is actually a real thing. Maybe they're related, maybe

739
00:33:07,556 --> 00:33:11,116
Speaker 2: they're two separate things, but it did relate food addiction

740
00:33:11,276 --> 00:33:14,156
Speaker 2: or like not being able to regulate food intake. I

741
00:33:14,156 --> 00:33:16,956
Speaker 2: guess to substances of abuse because a lot of people,

742
00:33:16,996 --> 00:33:18,356
Speaker 2: when you ask them about it, it's like a behavior

743
00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:20,636
Speaker 2: they really want to stop and they're unable to stop,

744
00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:22,556
Speaker 2: and they kind of tell themselves to not do it,

745
00:33:22,596 --> 00:33:23,716
Speaker 2: not do it, not do it, and they end up

746
00:33:23,756 --> 00:33:25,116
Speaker 2: doing it and they feel really bad. So it kind

747
00:33:25,116 --> 00:33:27,276
Speaker 2: of had a lot of similarities to the addiction cycle.

748
00:33:27,396 --> 00:33:29,196
Speaker 2: So I was wondering what you think about that relationship

749
00:33:29,196 --> 00:33:30,436
Speaker 2: between addiction food.

750
00:33:31,156 --> 00:33:33,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, you know, the addiction literature in fields

751
00:33:33,956 --> 00:33:36,596
Speaker 1: of psychology and psychiatry right now is a little complicated,

752
00:33:36,676 --> 00:33:38,596
Speaker 1: right in the sense that you know, we know that

753
00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:42,356
Speaker 1: some addictions are kind of more classic addiction, say, you know,

754
00:33:42,556 --> 00:33:45,356
Speaker 1: like a heroin addiction, for example, Those drugs of abuse

755
00:33:45,396 --> 00:33:48,516
Speaker 1: are literally tapping into chemicals that are kind of part

756
00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:51,356
Speaker 1: of the wanting system, right, you know, like like heroin

757
00:33:51,516 --> 00:33:54,036
Speaker 1: is like you know, these are opiates that are tapping

758
00:33:54,076 --> 00:33:56,356
Speaker 1: into opiate systems that exist in our brain. So it's

759
00:33:56,396 --> 00:33:59,516
Speaker 1: like you're abusing the very chemical that is very very

760
00:33:59,556 --> 00:34:01,836
Speaker 1: close to the signal in the brain. There's a more

761
00:34:01,836 --> 00:34:04,516
Speaker 1: open question about addictions that seem to have all the

762
00:34:04,556 --> 00:34:07,476
Speaker 1: same features where people binge on these things, they overthink

763
00:34:07,476 --> 00:34:10,596
Speaker 1: about them, they want to stop, but they can't write. Like,

764
00:34:10,676 --> 00:34:14,316
Speaker 1: behaviorally and psychologically these look the same, But the substance

765
00:34:14,596 --> 00:34:18,236
Speaker 1: that you're feeling addicted to isn't like an opiate, right,

766
00:34:18,276 --> 00:34:20,756
Speaker 1: It isn't a chemical signaler in a brain, you know,

767
00:34:20,836 --> 00:34:23,676
Speaker 1: So things like a shopping addiction, or an internet addiction,

768
00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:26,516
Speaker 1: or a TikTok addiction, or you know, maybe in a

769
00:34:26,556 --> 00:34:30,156
Speaker 1: more nebulous case, a sugar addiction or a food addiction. Right, Obviously,

770
00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:32,796
Speaker 1: foods are you know, they're not direct opiates, but they're

771
00:34:32,876 --> 00:34:34,996
Speaker 1: chemicals that are playing a part in this process.

772
00:34:35,116 --> 00:34:35,276
Speaker 3: Right.

773
00:34:35,316 --> 00:34:37,316
Speaker 1: But there's some debate about whether we want to call

774
00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:39,836
Speaker 1: that addiction. Yeah, you know, to a psychologist like me,

775
00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:42,476
Speaker 1: if it's if it's taking up your thought pattern, if

776
00:34:42,476 --> 00:34:44,956
Speaker 1: it's like messing with your sense of self, if it's

777
00:34:44,996 --> 00:34:47,716
Speaker 1: messing with your daily life, it feels addictive, even though

778
00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:50,036
Speaker 1: we might not want to call it a capital a addiction.

779
00:34:50,516 --> 00:34:53,436
Speaker 1: And I think bending behaviors, food behaviors for a lot

780
00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:56,876
Speaker 1: of people feel addictive, you know, whether that's kind of

781
00:34:57,156 --> 00:34:59,356
Speaker 1: a drug of choice and that you're kind of eating

782
00:34:59,396 --> 00:35:02,316
Speaker 1: more food than you want to or comfortable with, whether

783
00:35:02,356 --> 00:35:05,076
Speaker 1: that's you know, something like orthorexia where the thought patterns

784
00:35:05,076 --> 00:35:07,196
Speaker 1: that you engage in are really you know, you don't

785
00:35:07,196 --> 00:35:09,036
Speaker 1: want to keep thinking about healthy food, but you're kind

786
00:35:09,036 --> 00:35:12,076
Speaker 1: of obsessing with it, like almost like in an OCD way.

787
00:35:12,196 --> 00:35:14,516
Speaker 1: And so I think, even though again there's some debate

788
00:35:14,556 --> 00:35:16,916
Speaker 1: about whether it kind of fits as a kind of

789
00:35:16,956 --> 00:35:20,356
Speaker 1: capital a addiction that would be in like the psychology journals,

790
00:35:20,476 --> 00:35:22,996
Speaker 1: it definitely for the people that are experiencing these things

791
00:35:23,116 --> 00:35:25,716
Speaker 1: is like deeply problematic, you know, beyond just being an

792
00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:27,356
Speaker 1: eating disorder or something like that.

793
00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:29,316
Speaker 2: Well, it's also that a lot of people use food

794
00:35:29,316 --> 00:35:30,196
Speaker 2: to cope with things.

795
00:35:30,516 --> 00:35:32,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's a big thing, right. You know,

796
00:35:32,356 --> 00:35:35,036
Speaker 1: food really is about pleasure, right. It's a way of

797
00:35:35,076 --> 00:35:38,236
Speaker 1: getting pleasure. Sometimes it just gives us something to do, right,

798
00:35:38,316 --> 00:35:40,276
Speaker 1: you know, like you're feeling bored and it's like a

799
00:35:40,316 --> 00:35:42,396
Speaker 1: thing that you can turn to. Sometimes it's a way

800
00:35:42,436 --> 00:35:45,236
Speaker 1: of escaping reality, you know, so kind of it's it's

801
00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:48,476
Speaker 1: a behavior akin to something like cutting, which is another

802
00:35:48,516 --> 00:35:50,556
Speaker 1: sort of behavior like this, where it's like it just

803
00:35:50,916 --> 00:35:52,436
Speaker 1: is the only thing you can think about, so you

804
00:35:52,516 --> 00:35:55,276
Speaker 1: can't think about other things. And so yeah, I think

805
00:35:55,356 --> 00:35:58,356
Speaker 1: we're using these foods in functional ways. I think sometimes

806
00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:01,156
Speaker 1: when we think about disorders of eating, we say, like

807
00:36:01,196 --> 00:36:04,596
Speaker 1: what's going on? But you know, minds are smart, despite

808
00:36:04,596 --> 00:36:05,956
Speaker 1: what I was saying about all these problems with the

809
00:36:05,996 --> 00:36:08,396
Speaker 1: way brains are organized, Like, our minds are smart, right,

810
00:36:08,476 --> 00:36:11,796
Speaker 1: And sometimes the best go to for pleasure for when

811
00:36:11,796 --> 00:36:14,476
Speaker 1: you need to stop thinking about something is something related

812
00:36:14,476 --> 00:36:15,076
Speaker 1: to your eating.

813
00:36:15,676 --> 00:36:18,876
Speaker 3: So as we start to wrap up absent paying, what

814
00:36:18,916 --> 00:36:22,116
Speaker 3: does Yale cost now seventy thousand dollars. What kind of

815
00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:26,276
Speaker 3: assignment would you give your students in your happiness course

816
00:36:27,116 --> 00:36:27,836
Speaker 3: about food?

817
00:36:28,556 --> 00:36:31,476
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, what is to start paying attention to kind

818
00:36:31,476 --> 00:36:33,796
Speaker 1: of how and why you're eating? Right? I think one

819
00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:36,316
Speaker 1: of the best early steps in mindful eating is to

820
00:36:36,356 --> 00:36:38,836
Speaker 1: start when you have the urge to eat something, kind

821
00:36:38,836 --> 00:36:41,836
Speaker 1: of ask like, why, what's going on? Am I actually hungry?

822
00:36:42,076 --> 00:36:45,036
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe I'm bored? Maybe I just saw the food,

823
00:36:45,316 --> 00:36:47,236
Speaker 1: Like when you have that craving kind of ask what's

824
00:36:47,276 --> 00:36:49,716
Speaker 1: going on? Not in a judgmental like I can't have

825
00:36:49,796 --> 00:36:52,196
Speaker 1: it way, but just in a like curious noticing, like

826
00:36:52,516 --> 00:36:55,036
Speaker 1: I wonder what caused that urge? And sometimes when you

827
00:36:55,036 --> 00:36:57,476
Speaker 1: start to engage in that process, you notice it wasn't

828
00:36:57,516 --> 00:37:00,516
Speaker 1: really about hunger. It was about some emotion like you

829
00:37:00,516 --> 00:37:02,236
Speaker 1: were bored, or maybe you were in a good mood,

830
00:37:02,316 --> 00:37:04,596
Speaker 1: or you were excited, or you just saw it, right, Like,

831
00:37:04,836 --> 00:37:07,076
Speaker 1: that's the first step I think to noticing whether you're

832
00:37:07,196 --> 00:37:09,916
Speaker 1: using food in the way that at least evolutionarily our

833
00:37:09,916 --> 00:37:12,556
Speaker 1: bodies intended, which is as fuel. Right, And you can

834
00:37:12,596 --> 00:37:14,956
Speaker 1: eat for other reasons, but like that's the main reason.

835
00:37:15,196 --> 00:37:17,156
Speaker 1: And then I think the second exercise is to really

836
00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:21,236
Speaker 1: pay attention to how a food really truly feels, the

837
00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:23,876
Speaker 1: real liking that you're getting from it when you experience it,

838
00:37:23,956 --> 00:37:26,796
Speaker 1: because again, sometimes these hyper palatable foods that are like

839
00:37:26,996 --> 00:37:28,996
Speaker 1: in our brain of like, oh, I'm so obsessed with that,

840
00:37:29,036 --> 00:37:31,236
Speaker 1: when you finally sit down and notice you're kind of

841
00:37:31,316 --> 00:37:33,556
Speaker 1: it sort of takes some of the magic away. You're like,

842
00:37:33,636 --> 00:37:37,396
Speaker 1: that actually wasn't like as super delicious as I thought.

843
00:37:37,716 --> 00:37:40,476
Speaker 1: And this is a practice that we use generally beyond

844
00:37:40,516 --> 00:37:42,716
Speaker 1: just the domain of food in the class, just a

845
00:37:42,756 --> 00:37:46,316
Speaker 1: practice of mindfulness trying to notice what things feel like.

846
00:37:46,476 --> 00:37:49,716
Speaker 1: And I think often that practice shows us this dissociation

847
00:37:49,836 --> 00:37:52,316
Speaker 1: between wanting and liking, where we're like, huh, I really

848
00:37:52,356 --> 00:37:55,436
Speaker 1: wanted that thing, you know whatever, it was shopping, buying something,

849
00:37:55,516 --> 00:37:58,676
Speaker 1: watching the TikTok videos, eating, but I didn't actually like

850
00:37:58,716 --> 00:38:00,756
Speaker 1: it as much as I thought. And sometimes, I think

851
00:38:00,796 --> 00:38:02,956
Speaker 1: in a more important way, it can tell us the opposite,

852
00:38:03,276 --> 00:38:05,516
Speaker 1: right Like I didn't really want to go to the gym,

853
00:38:05,556 --> 00:38:07,516
Speaker 1: but I enjoyed it more than I thought, Right Like,

854
00:38:07,796 --> 00:38:09,516
Speaker 1: I thought this salad was just gonna be the boring

855
00:38:09,516 --> 00:38:11,196
Speaker 1: thing I was going to eat because I was you know,

856
00:38:11,236 --> 00:38:13,636
Speaker 1: trying to eat healthier. But when I paid attention, it

857
00:38:13,716 --> 00:38:16,156
Speaker 1: was crunchy, it was delicious, It had these flavors that

858
00:38:16,196 --> 00:38:18,436
Speaker 1: I didn't expect, right, And so I think that that

859
00:38:18,596 --> 00:38:21,196
Speaker 1: mindful process can kind of allow us to get our

860
00:38:21,236 --> 00:38:23,836
Speaker 1: wanting and liking back in sync. And it can also

861
00:38:23,956 --> 00:38:26,276
Speaker 1: be you know, an important part of the presence that

862
00:38:26,476 --> 00:38:28,956
Speaker 1: just makes life better, and that we can savor it

863
00:38:28,996 --> 00:38:29,796
Speaker 1: and notice it more.

864
00:38:30,356 --> 00:38:33,036
Speaker 2: M Okay, do we have our assignments.

865
00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:35,476
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm going to savor more.

866
00:38:35,636 --> 00:38:41,036
Speaker 3: I'm going to like more, want less.

867
00:38:41,276 --> 00:38:45,676
Speaker 1: I think that's a great Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know,

868
00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:50,116
Speaker 1: I think, you know, these ancient traditions were onto something

869
00:38:50,156 --> 00:38:52,036
Speaker 1: in so many domains. I think, for sure when it

870
00:38:52,036 --> 00:38:54,516
Speaker 1: comes to happiness, but probably when it came to food.

871
00:38:54,916 --> 00:38:57,396
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think that the ancients had as

872
00:38:57,436 --> 00:38:59,676
Speaker 1: complicated a relationship with food. You know, we went all

873
00:38:59,716 --> 00:39:01,476
Speaker 1: the way back to hunter gatherers, but I'm like, we

874
00:39:01,476 --> 00:39:03,916
Speaker 1: don't have to go back that far. I think even

875
00:39:03,956 --> 00:39:07,596
Speaker 1: if we rewind, honestly, like seventy five one hundred years,

876
00:39:07,876 --> 00:39:12,436
Speaker 1: we're already getting to cultural relationships with food that were

877
00:39:12,436 --> 00:39:13,196
Speaker 1: a lot healthier.

878
00:39:13,436 --> 00:39:16,076
Speaker 2: That's what my parents always said when after they read

879
00:39:16,076 --> 00:39:18,036
Speaker 2: the book and stuff, and my mom said that she

880
00:39:18,116 --> 00:39:21,116
Speaker 2: was so surprised at how complicated my relationship with food was,

881
00:39:21,116 --> 00:39:22,796
Speaker 2: because she said, when she grew up in Albania, like

882
00:39:22,956 --> 00:39:26,476
Speaker 2: nobody was like dieting or like changing their food choices

883
00:39:26,556 --> 00:39:27,876
Speaker 2: on purpose. Do you know what I mean?

884
00:39:28,156 --> 00:39:30,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, in some ways, it's a funny, weird privilege that

885
00:39:30,836 --> 00:39:32,956
Speaker 1: we have. Yeah, because we have a lot of food,

886
00:39:32,996 --> 00:39:36,036
Speaker 1: because we have an enormous variety of food. Yeah, But

887
00:39:36,076 --> 00:39:38,116
Speaker 1: it's not a fun privilege. It's one that causes people

888
00:39:38,156 --> 00:39:40,076
Speaker 1: a lot of pain and suffering.

889
00:39:40,516 --> 00:39:42,116
Speaker 2: But do you think part of the reason why, like

890
00:39:42,156 --> 00:39:44,276
Speaker 2: we have more of that today than we did before

891
00:39:44,396 --> 00:39:46,876
Speaker 2: is because the food environment is so different today. I

892
00:39:46,876 --> 00:39:48,796
Speaker 2: feel like if the food environment is the way it

893
00:39:48,836 --> 00:39:51,316
Speaker 2: is now, these problems are always going to arise because

894
00:39:51,596 --> 00:39:55,476
Speaker 2: these aren't foods that necessarily promote the best eating patterns totally.

895
00:39:55,516 --> 00:39:58,356
Speaker 1: And I think that that came hand in hand with

896
00:39:58,836 --> 00:40:01,556
Speaker 1: a kind of relaxing or maybe a removal of some

897
00:40:01,596 --> 00:40:03,876
Speaker 1: of the cultural traditions of food that came with it.

898
00:40:04,036 --> 00:40:05,796
Speaker 1: You know, So two things kind of happen. One is

899
00:40:05,836 --> 00:40:08,396
Speaker 1: I think we lost kind of culturally specific ways of

900
00:40:08,436 --> 00:40:10,636
Speaker 1: eating right for the most part, especially in the US

901
00:40:10,676 --> 00:40:12,196
Speaker 1: where maybe we didn't even grow up with them, but

902
00:40:12,236 --> 00:40:14,356
Speaker 1: a lot of people came from family backgrounds where they

903
00:40:14,396 --> 00:40:16,396
Speaker 1: you know, had kind of these traditions of eating food.

904
00:40:16,436 --> 00:40:18,956
Speaker 1: So those things were going away at the same time

905
00:40:19,076 --> 00:40:21,596
Speaker 1: as I think, you know, the food industrial complex was

906
00:40:21,636 --> 00:40:24,196
Speaker 1: telling us like, oh, these things are so healthy or

907
00:40:24,196 --> 00:40:26,996
Speaker 1: these things are so delicious. And there were advertisements on TV,

908
00:40:27,396 --> 00:40:29,556
Speaker 1: you know, I mean take an extreme example, take something

909
00:40:29,636 --> 00:40:32,516
Speaker 1: like breast milk versus formula. Right. You know, I was

910
00:40:32,556 --> 00:40:34,516
Speaker 1: from the generation my mom where they were like, oh,

911
00:40:34,556 --> 00:40:37,036
Speaker 1: breast milk so totally not good, like we want the

912
00:40:37,076 --> 00:40:42,116
Speaker 1: you know, food science energized formula like healthy. Yeah, some

913
00:40:42,156 --> 00:40:45,196
Speaker 1: ways it still is, you know. And I think that

914
00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:47,716
Speaker 1: you know, that basic thing was telling you, oh, you're

915
00:40:47,956 --> 00:40:50,236
Speaker 1: you know, the wisdom you thought you had about food

916
00:40:50,596 --> 00:40:53,636
Speaker 1: that was wrong. Let's follow what the nutrition science says,

917
00:40:54,076 --> 00:40:56,396
Speaker 1: you know, like doctor Kellogg who with his you know,

918
00:40:56,476 --> 00:40:59,476
Speaker 1: crackers of like we'll control those urges and make you

919
00:40:59,556 --> 00:41:01,716
Speaker 1: healthy eat these crackers, right, And so I think that

920
00:41:01,716 --> 00:41:04,356
Speaker 1: that really really was a moment in time that was

921
00:41:04,396 --> 00:41:07,916
Speaker 1: happening as again, culturally, we were kind of abandoning what

922
00:41:07,956 --> 00:41:09,796
Speaker 1: we used to do, and so in some ways it

923
00:41:09,956 --> 00:41:11,836
Speaker 1: was like a double edged sword of these more of

924
00:41:11,836 --> 00:41:14,636
Speaker 1: these hyper palatable foods around in a way there never

925
00:41:14,716 --> 00:41:17,236
Speaker 1: had been in human history. Plus the kind of loss

926
00:41:17,276 --> 00:41:20,196
Speaker 1: of our sort of ancestral wisdom about just how to eat.

927
00:41:20,516 --> 00:41:23,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, when my parents came to America, they my mom

928
00:41:23,396 --> 00:41:25,836
Speaker 2: said that everybody here had like low fat milk and

929
00:41:25,876 --> 00:41:28,396
Speaker 2: like low fat yogurt and stuff, and like they could

930
00:41:28,396 --> 00:41:30,716
Speaker 2: not be converted because they were like it's so gross,

931
00:41:30,756 --> 00:41:33,356
Speaker 2: like it tastes so bad in comparison. And I remember

932
00:41:33,396 --> 00:41:34,636
Speaker 2: growing up and I was like, oh, you guys are

933
00:41:34,636 --> 00:41:36,396
Speaker 2: so unhealthy, like you're always getting you know, and my

934
00:41:36,396 --> 00:41:39,076
Speaker 2: mom would make her own yogurt and with whole milk,

935
00:41:39,076 --> 00:41:40,876
Speaker 2: should buy, right, I like, you guys are so unhealthy,

936
00:41:40,876 --> 00:41:42,916
Speaker 2: blah bah blah. And now the narratives completely changed where

937
00:41:42,916 --> 00:41:45,076
Speaker 2: it's like people always say don't have low fat things

938
00:41:45,076 --> 00:41:46,796
Speaker 2: because they've been manipulated to take out the fat and

939
00:41:46,836 --> 00:41:48,836
Speaker 2: blah blahlahlah blah. And I was like, damn it.

940
00:41:48,796 --> 00:41:49,396
Speaker 4: They were right.

941
00:41:49,716 --> 00:41:53,796
Speaker 2: They're always right in the end, damn it. Anyways, thank

942
00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:55,316
Speaker 2: you so much for coming back on the podcast to

943
00:41:55,356 --> 00:41:56,276
Speaker 2: talk to us about food.

944
00:41:56,516 --> 00:41:57,716
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having.

945
00:41:57,516 --> 00:41:59,716
Speaker 2: Me and for telling us all the dumb things that

946
00:41:59,716 --> 00:42:00,516
Speaker 2: the human brain does.

947
00:42:02,636 --> 00:42:04,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome back next time and do it even more.

948
00:42:07,516 --> 00:42:09,676
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Professor Santis for coming on

949
00:42:09,756 --> 00:42:13,076
Speaker 2: today's episode again, it was so much fun. We will

950
00:42:13,116 --> 00:42:15,076
Speaker 2: link to her podcast as well as all her work

951
00:42:15,156 --> 00:42:17,956
Speaker 2: on our website, and if you want to hear bonus episodes,

952
00:42:18,156 --> 00:42:21,196
Speaker 2: you can go to food we Need to Talk dot com,

953
00:42:21,236 --> 00:42:25,116
Speaker 2: slash membership and become part of the foodie fam. You

954
00:42:25,156 --> 00:42:27,796
Speaker 2: can find us on Instagram at food we Need to Talk.

955
00:42:27,996 --> 00:42:30,276
Speaker 2: You can find me on Instagram at the official Una

956
00:42:30,316 --> 00:42:33,636
Speaker 2: and Yunajada. On YouTube and TikTok, you can find.

957
00:42:33,636 --> 00:42:37,996
Speaker 4: Eddie savoring and really learning to like my food.

958
00:42:38,676 --> 00:42:41,836
Speaker 2: Food we Need to Talk is a production of pr X.

959
00:42:42,236 --> 00:42:45,796
Speaker 3: Our senior producer is Morgan Flannery and our producer is

960
00:42:45,916 --> 00:42:47,076
Speaker 3: Megan Aftermat.

961
00:42:47,236 --> 00:42:49,036
Speaker 2: Tommy Bazarian is our mixed engineer.

962
00:42:49,396 --> 00:42:53,916
Speaker 3: Jocelyn Gonzales is executive producer for PRX Productions.

963
00:42:54,196 --> 00:42:57,276
Speaker 2: Food we Need to Talk was co created by Kerry Goldberg,

964
00:42:57,356 --> 00:42:58,836
Speaker 2: George Hicks, Eddie Phillips and me.

965
00:42:59,436 --> 00:43:03,436
Speaker 3: For any personal health questions, please consult your personal health provider.

966
00:43:03,916 --> 00:43:06,476
Speaker 3: To find out more, go to foodwe Need to Talk

967
00:43:06,556 --> 00:43:12,636
Speaker 3: dot com thanks for listening, who WO,