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Speaker 1: Welcome to Sharper Square, presented by hard Rock Vet. We

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Speaker 1: are part of the Volume podcast Network. This is the

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Speaker 1: show that makes the squares sharper and makes the wise

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Speaker 1: guys pay attention all year long.

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Speaker 2: I am Chad Norman.

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Speaker 1: I am joined as always, buy my bff, my companion,

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Speaker 1: my compadre, my co host, professional better Simon Hunter. Hello, Simon, Chad.

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Speaker 3: It's always fun hearing from uh, just new fans in general,

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Speaker 3: especially ones that who just joined this year so they

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Speaker 3: really haven't heard our after football type of shows.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: The feedback is always hilarious from different people. Obviously, you know,

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Speaker 3: some people love us, some people hate us. The biggest

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Speaker 3: one was, is this Chad for the whole offseason? And

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Speaker 3: I said to people, I don't know if Chad's always

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Speaker 3: going to have such great stories like that, right, Like

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Speaker 3: that was you had to build up of really good stories.

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Speaker 5: You had to get them all out on one show.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Said, Chad, Dad's gonna talk about Chad and tell some stories,

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Speaker 3: and they all, that's what we're doing here, people, But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I thought that was very funny from hearing from a

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Speaker 3: lot of people where they're like, yeah, during the season,

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Speaker 3: I get it. It's like you guys are just doing

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Speaker 3: quick stories and stuff. But Chad was really really on

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Speaker 3: one last last show, and I was like, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: that's all season, Chad.

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Speaker 2: That is so funny.

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Speaker 1: I can't tell is this Chad for the whole off season?

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Speaker 1: Is that like, oh my god, he's insufferable or oh

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Speaker 1: my god, he's living some crazy life.

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Speaker 2: And I can't believe we get.

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Speaker 1: To hear these stories, like what exactly is the is

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Speaker 1: the context for oh my god?

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Speaker 2: Is this Chad off season?

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Speaker 5: I think a little bit of both.

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Speaker 3: I agree, it's more so of I think people in

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Speaker 3: shock of what your life is like right now. They're like,

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Speaker 3: I can't believe Dad's traveling around doing all this cool stuff.

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Speaker 3: He's writing a pretty sweet book, He's got some cool connections.

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Speaker 3: Chad's living the good life. So I just thought it

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Speaker 3: was funny you just came out the gate fire, So

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Speaker 3: I yeah. As soon as I got a couple of messages,

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Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, I wasn't the only one that

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Speaker 3: was like, what's going on right now?

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Speaker 5: Chat is on one today?

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Speaker 2: That is so funny.

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Speaker 1: I was also, you know, I wasn't recording from my

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Speaker 1: normal home environment. And you know, Mitchell knows, I actually

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Speaker 1: I don't like going anywhere, and it just so happens

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Speaker 1: that the first two months of this year, I have,

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Speaker 1: no joke, been traveling literally every single week. I've been

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Speaker 1: on planes for eight straight weeks, ten different cities, you know,

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Speaker 1: god knows how many states, just because of the book

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Speaker 1: and because of Indiana and because of All Star and

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Speaker 1: some other consulting work I'm doing, and like, so it's

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Speaker 1: just been a crazy, crazy few months with a lot.

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Speaker 5: Of articles stuff front chat.

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Speaker 3: You really are you're I don't know if you're peeking

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Speaker 3: right now in life, but you had a crazy crazy

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Speaker 3: run there.

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Speaker 5: You go to pret Sweet events.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, dude, it was freaking wild.

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Speaker 1: Between the Indiana stuff and then you know, going to

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Speaker 1: Philly to see my kid for dinner, going to DC

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Speaker 1: to see the Wizards and the Lakers, going to spend

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Speaker 1: Super Bowl with this guy who's a marketmaker on.

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Speaker 2: Calshi for the book, Like, uh, super exciting, but you know.

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Speaker 3: Real quick on that before we go into the show,

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Speaker 3: what do you think of Nevada?

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Speaker 5: And is I think they've been Calshi right?

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Speaker 1: Well, look, I think I think we're going to get

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Speaker 1: very very deep into all this, and and every day

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Speaker 1: it feels like there is more news around the prediction

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Speaker 1: markets and what's happening with legal sports betting on a

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Speaker 1: state by state basis and what the legal operators are doing.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've seen in the last week Draftking stock

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Speaker 1: has dropped precipitously. Jason Robbins has been trying to explain it.

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Speaker 1: Jason Robbins is talking about the stock getting killed and

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Speaker 1: that the market cap for his company is actually smaller

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Speaker 1: than what the valuation is for companies like Polymarket and Calshi.

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Speaker 1: So when he's asked if they would want to buy him,

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Speaker 1: he's pretty honest, like the valuations for these makes them

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Speaker 1: too high for us to acquire right now. But look,

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Speaker 1: this business is in chaos right now, and because the

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Speaker 1: prediction markets have sort of decided they are going to

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Speaker 1: do what Facebook did twenty years ago and Uber did

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Speaker 1: ten years ago and just start doing whatever they want

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Speaker 1: to do, and either the courts will eventually stop them

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Speaker 1: or everyone else will decide this is how business is

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Speaker 1: going to operate, and this is what the new opportunity is,

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Speaker 1: and they'll be way ahead of it.

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Speaker 2: It's a fascinating time.

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Speaker 1: I'm enjoying doing the book because of all that, and

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Speaker 1: you and I, You and Mitchell we've talked about we

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Speaker 1: are going to get into the conversation around these We're

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Speaker 1: going to have on more experts.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk.

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Speaker 1: About is this betting, is this not betting? How can

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Speaker 1: people participate? All those kinds of things. I think everyone

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Speaker 1: sort of needs to be informed about and educated about

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Speaker 1: what these are and why they're good, why they're bad,

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Speaker 1: what the benefits of the online operators are, all those

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Speaker 1: kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: So it's going to be crazy. It's crazy.

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Speaker 3: I'm hoping Kelsey does what they should do, and they

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Speaker 3: should put up on their site. Will we exist in

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Speaker 3: five years? And you let people bet on it? And

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Speaker 3: I just want to hear your first opinion on it,

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Speaker 3: because I don't know if this is the first start

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Speaker 3: of it, right, Is this the crack in the ice

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Speaker 3: here where that is the first date the back they're

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Speaker 3: gambling companies and their casinos and bands.

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Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's an all or nothing proposition.

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Speaker 5: Interesting, Okay, I.

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Speaker 1: Think I think the prediction markets will exist. Will they

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Speaker 1: exist with sports is another question? And the real question

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Speaker 1: is it's twenty twenty six. In May of twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court repealed the Professional Amateur Sports Protection Act

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Speaker 1: aka PASSPA and allowed every state to decide if they

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Speaker 1: wanted to legalize sports betting, whether through voter referendums, whether

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Speaker 1: through the state legislature enacting new laws, whatever the case

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Speaker 1: may be. This is a right leaning conservative Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: It was a right leaning conservative Supreme Court in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: The reason why proponents of legalized betting and people who

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Speaker 1: wanted PASSPA overturned believed they would get the right to

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Speaker 1: offer legalized sports betting in their state is because state's

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Speaker 1: rights is a conservative issue. They believe in the ability

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Speaker 1: of the state to decide their own opportunities and their

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Speaker 1: own future more than they believe in the government. What's interesting,

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Speaker 1: and this just happened, is the CFTC, the Commodity's Futures

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Speaker 1: Trading Commission, has now come out and said federal authority

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Speaker 1: should supersede state authority that are trying to block KLSHI

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Speaker 1: from being able to operate in their states where spports

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Speaker 1: betting is legal. So now you've got a conservative executive

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Speaker 1: branch and a conservative Supreme Court that may be on

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Speaker 1: a collision course because what the conservative executive branch and

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Speaker 1: the CFTC is saying does not align with the states

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Speaker 1: rights principles of you know, of historic conservative theology on

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Speaker 1: this topic. It's fascinating and that's exactly where it's going

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Speaker 1: to end up.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, the person.

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Speaker 1: Who wrote the decision to overturn PASPA was Samuel Alito,

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Speaker 1: who is one of the most conservative of all the

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Speaker 1: justices on the Supreme Court. So obviously minute and we're

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Speaker 1: going to dig deeper. It's part of the book that

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Speaker 1: I'm writing. Speaking of books, this guy has become one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite authors the past couple of years, since

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Speaker 1: we had him on a couple of years ago, and

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Speaker 1: he wrote that great book about Pete Rose that was

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Speaker 1: a New York Times bestseller that landed exactly as the

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Speaker 1: conversation around sports betting was becoming huge with the Dodgers scandal.

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Speaker 1: He is a New York Times bestselling author. His most

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Speaker 1: recent book digs deep on the defining year in the

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Speaker 1: life of an NBA player who went on to define

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Speaker 1: a generation. I'm talking about Keith O'Brien. His new book

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Speaker 1: out this week is titled Heartland Forgotten Place, an Impossible Dream, and.

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Speaker 2: The Miracle of Larry Bird.

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Speaker 1: A little bit of preamble here, this is mostly This

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Speaker 1: is mostly about birds senior season at Indiana State in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine culminated in the NCAA Finals against Magic

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Speaker 1: Johnson and Michigan State. This created the modern version of

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Speaker 1: March madness that we all love today. I want to

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Speaker 1: put in contexts. I always love doing this. I love

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Speaker 1: books like this because you know, I'm a soccer for

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Speaker 1: like narrative, historical nonfiction, and that's what this book is.

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Speaker 1: And it's brilliant. I've read it. It's great.

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Speaker 2: Kisa an amazing writer and reporter. But what's fun about

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Speaker 2: these books.

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Speaker 1: Is they put so much in context, and so I

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Speaker 1: like to look back and see, like, what else mattered

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Speaker 1: at the time, and how important was this moment in

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Speaker 1: that era. So on the same day as that Magic

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Speaker 1: and Bird NCAA finals, Egypt and Israel signed a historic

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Speaker 1: peace treaty. Same day two days later, Three Mile Island, Simon,

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Speaker 1: do you know what three Mile Island is?

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Speaker 2: Nope, Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: Three Mile Island was a nuclear reactor in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 5: Oh yes, yes, basketball term.

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Speaker 2: No, No, it melted down.

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Speaker 5: I'm not that young.

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Speaker 2: OK.

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Speaker 1: So that's that has set off a fifty year debate

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Speaker 1: about the safety of nuclear energy that still exists today.

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Speaker 1: Also very important for gamblers, very very important.

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Speaker 2: Did you know.

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Speaker 1: March of nineteen seventy nine the spreadsheet was invented?

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Speaker 2: What would you be doing today without the spreadsheet? Simon

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Speaker 2: you lost it's the cheat code, You'd be on an avocus.

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Speaker 1: So all the reason I use all these reference points

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Speaker 1: is because if you ask chatchept, which I did for

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Speaker 1: the most important moments in March of nineteen seventy nine,

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Speaker 1: the Larry Bird Magic Johnson Finals gets the same billing

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Speaker 1: as three Mile Island invention to the Spreadsheet and the

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Speaker 1: Israeli Egypt Historic Peace to chords. Keith O'Brien. After all that,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 4: Brother, Wow, what an intro. I love it.

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Speaker 6: I love it, Chad, Thanks so much, guys, great to

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Speaker 6: be back with you.

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Speaker 2: We do our homework here, you do.

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Speaker 1: We're not just going to have you come on talk

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Speaker 1: about the book as if we don't know what we're

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Speaker 1: asking you. We want people to buy the freaking book.

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Speaker 1: We want to see your Amazon sales rankings jump after

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Speaker 1: this show airs, we want like NPR level influence on

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Speaker 1: the bookselling community because we are the most literate sports

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Speaker 1: betting podcast in America.

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Speaker 4: That's right. I love all of that.

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Speaker 6: I mean, listen, you guys, move lines, right, you move

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Speaker 6: the spread. You talk about it all the time. Let's

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Speaker 6: move the line on this.

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Speaker 4: I like it.

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Speaker 5: I like it.

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Speaker 2: But that's what we're here for.

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Speaker 1: So Ry, first question, given everything I just set up,

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Speaker 1: give me the hook, give me the why now for

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Speaker 1: a book about Larry Bird nineteen seventy nine Indiana State.

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Speaker 6: Really a few reasons. First, I think we've been telling

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Speaker 6: the Larry Bird story wrong all these years. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 6: the bird Magic game is critical. It's everything in late

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Speaker 6: March nineteen seventy nine, And for that reason, over the years,

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Speaker 6: almost every writer who's come to this story ends up

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Speaker 6: doing the bird Magic story. You know, they pile them

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Speaker 6: in together and they do that sing song narrative. And

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Speaker 6: you know, I get why they do that as a storyteller,

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Speaker 6: but when you do that, you end up diluting the

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Speaker 6: stories of both men, and you particularly end up end

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Speaker 6: up diluting the story of Larry Bird. I mean, this

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Speaker 6: is one of the great underdog stories of the past

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Speaker 6: fifty years. You know, there is a real reality that

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Speaker 6: I'm sure we'll discuss here today where we never know

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Speaker 6: Larry Bird's name, where he doesn't get out of French leg,

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Speaker 6: where he doesn't become a star. That's that's a real scenario.

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Speaker 6: You know, the fact that Indiana State was there is

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Speaker 6: an impossibility. So the whole thing is is just impossible.

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Speaker 6: And so what I wanted to do with this book

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Speaker 6: is really, you know, just to sort of do something

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Speaker 6: that storytellers often do, is that tilt, tilt the camera

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Speaker 6: just a little bit differently away from Bird and Magic

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Speaker 6: and directly on Bird and that.

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Speaker 4: Indiana State team.

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Speaker 6: And the reason why I think that team is interesting,

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Speaker 6: and this is the second reason why I think the

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Speaker 6: book matters, is that I just think it's highly unlikely

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Speaker 6: that we're going to see something like that again today

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Speaker 6: in the era of name, image and likeness money. You know,

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Speaker 6: Larry Bird was a senior at Indiana State when they

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Speaker 6: finally broke through. Think about that for a second. It's

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Speaker 6: not like he shows up and they're suddenly great. He

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Speaker 6: doesn't even play on national TV for the first time

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Speaker 6: until about three weeks before his final basketball game, and

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Speaker 6: the NBC is late to the party here. Everybody is

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Speaker 6: They've never played on national TV, they've never made the

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Speaker 6: NCAA tournament, you know, and because of that, you know,

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Speaker 6: they're just not getting the coverage during that time. And

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Speaker 6: and and so you know, Larry Bird really explodes onto

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Speaker 6: the scene late, you know, and becomes a phenomenon with

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Speaker 6: this underdog team. And you know, in these days, a

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Speaker 6: young Larry Bird, who had a fantastic opening season in

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Speaker 6: in Terahood, Indiana, averaging thirty points a game, would have

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Speaker 6: left and would have signed with Purdue or Duke or

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Speaker 6: North Carolina or Indiana for like, you know, three four

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Speaker 6: five million dollars money that Indiana State doesn't have. So,

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Speaker 6: you know, I think it's a st story that paints

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Speaker 6: a picture of a time in place that we're just

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Speaker 6: not going to see again.

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Speaker 3: You put into like, you know, context of just what

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Speaker 3: a miracle of a team that you know, Indiana State

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Speaker 3: team was, and you know it's someone like me that's

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Speaker 3: not from that era.

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Speaker 5: The jerseys to me, when I.

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Speaker 3: Watch back in the day, that's the coolest part of it,

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Speaker 3: watching Larry with the hair with the jerseys. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's someone that loves vintage basketball. I've watched tons and

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Speaker 3: tons of clips and you're right. I mean those it's

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Speaker 3: it's like a miracle team when you think about it.

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Speaker 3: And I just would love to know, in your opinion,

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Speaker 3: what are the comps two teams today?

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Speaker 6: So you know, the seventy eight to seventy nine season,

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Speaker 6: that's the miracle year, right The year before was the

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Speaker 6: year that people thought something might happen. Larry Bird appears

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Speaker 6: on the cover of Sports Illustrated in November of seventy seven,

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Speaker 6: his first Sports Illustrated cover. It's an iconic cover. Almost

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Speaker 6: fifty years later, people know this cover and they're ranked.

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Speaker 6: Indiana State is in pre season polls, and they flame out.

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Speaker 6: They flame out. They start out thirteen to zero. They

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Speaker 6: hit a rough patch. They can't get out of it.

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Speaker 6: They're not a real team. They don't really get along.

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Speaker 6: It's a classic story of too many people wanting the ball,

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Speaker 6: not letting Larry do Larry, and they don't make the

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Speaker 6: NSAA tournament. They don't go anywhere. You know, entering that

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Speaker 6: next year, his senior year, Bird could have left, he

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Speaker 6: could have gone to the Celtics. He's been drafted already.

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Speaker 6: You know, in those times, an NBA team held your

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Speaker 6: rights for a year, whether you left school or not.

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Speaker 6: And Red Aarbach, you know, makes a bet on Larry Bird.

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Speaker 6: You know, the Celtics that year have two picks in

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Speaker 6: the top ten, which they never did.

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Speaker 4: In those days.

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Speaker 6: And he decides he's going to burn one on this

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Speaker 6: Larry Bird guy out of Tara Haat, even though Arbach

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Speaker 6: knows that Bird's not leaving, He's made it known he's

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Speaker 6: not leaving school. And our Backs says something that I

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Speaker 6: think is fascinating. It's a fascinating quote for life, for business,

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Speaker 6: for sports, for everything. You know, when he drafts Bird,

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Speaker 6: a lot of people are perplexed. You know, why would

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Speaker 6: you do this? We've never seen this guy, he's never

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Speaker 6: played anybody. Is he really good? And he's not even

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Speaker 6: coming here? Why would we do this? And our bachs says, time,

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Speaker 6: I'm paraphrasing here. Time moves faster than people think, and

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Speaker 6: folks are gonna kick themselves a year from now.

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Speaker 4: And you know he's right.

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Speaker 6: You know, entering that season, nobody's talking about Indiana State.

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Speaker 6: It's the opposite of the year before. They're not ranked,

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Speaker 6: they're picked to finish third or fourth in their own conference,

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Speaker 6: which is the Missouri Valley Conference. It was nothing in

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Speaker 6: those days. We're talking about Drake Tulsa, et cetera, and

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Speaker 6: nobody's talking about him. And then four days before practices begin,

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Speaker 6: the head coach of Indiana State falls ill, he nearly

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Speaker 6: dies and as a result, they have to scramble and

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Speaker 6: they decide to a point as head coach. This man

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Speaker 6: who had recruited Bird found him on the brink of

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Speaker 6: nothing in French Lick a few years earlier, a man

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Speaker 6: named Bill Hodges. So it's a total mess. No one

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Speaker 6: cares and it's just one of those classic stories where

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Speaker 6: it doesn't really matter about the talent in the room.

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Speaker 6: It matters do the guys get along, do they understand

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Speaker 6: their roles? Are they happy to be there? Are they

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Speaker 6: ready to work? Are they fighting for something? And you

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Speaker 6: know that's what fuels this epics season thirty three and

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Speaker 6: oh entering that final game, it's incredible. So to your question, Simon,

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Speaker 6: is there a comp today? I mean, really no, there isn't.

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Speaker 6: And I know we're going to talk about Indiana football

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Speaker 6: maybe in a second here check, But to me, the

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Speaker 6: closest comp would be like Butler Bulldog twenty ten. You

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Speaker 6: know the Gordon Hayward, Sheldon Mack. You know Brad Stevens

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Speaker 6: eight seed out of nowhere, nearly nearly beats Duke. That

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Speaker 6: to me is the closest comp in modern times.

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Speaker 1: and it's amazing because of the reporting threads that you

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Speaker 1: bring together and how you lay out this miracle of

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Speaker 1: a season doesn't happen unless there are seven, eight nine

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Speaker 1: different circumstances that come together, including Bill Hodges being a

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Speaker 1: dogged recruiter and having a great eye for talent, and

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Speaker 1: then ultimately getting.

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Speaker 2: That job from the coach who probably would not have.

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Speaker 1: Managed the team in the same way because he had

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Speaker 1: done badly the year before with an incredible group of

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Speaker 1: talent and sort of for a variety of reasons, missed

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Speaker 1: lost the plot on what that.

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Speaker 2: Team could be.

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Speaker 1: There's the story of one of the players who had

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Speaker 1: nearly lost his arm and like a combine thresher farming accident,

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Speaker 1: and like other players who were transferred in and out

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Speaker 1: and come back really amazing stories and the reporting is brilliant.

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Speaker 1: Put me in the scene, like when you're on the

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Speaker 1: ground in French lick, what are you seeing?

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Speaker 2: What's catching your eye?

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Speaker 1: About the circumstances that allowed someone like Larry Bird to

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Speaker 1: become Larry Bird?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know you know the deal, Chad.

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Speaker 6: When you're reporting a book, when you're going somewhere, it's

401
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 6: often for very specific reasons. You're flying there to meet

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Speaker 6: with someone or meet with these four or five people

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Speaker 6: over the course of a number of days. And you know,

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00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 6: there was some of that, you know, with this with

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Speaker 6: this book, of course.

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Speaker 4: But one thing I.

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Speaker 6: Learned about French Lick very early on is I could

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Speaker 6: get people's phone numbers. I could know that those phone

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Speaker 6: numbers were right. I could be and leaving voicemails and

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Speaker 6: people just weren't calling me back by in March, you know,

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Speaker 6: And so what I did initially was just go to

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Speaker 6: French Lick book a room at the Best Western on

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Speaker 6: the edge of town, you know, plan to spend four

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Speaker 6: days there, with no real idea of how I was

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Speaker 6: filling that time exactly. And then once I was coming,

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Speaker 6: texting and calling the people who were not calling me

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Speaker 6: back and saying, I will be there Monday through Thursday

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Speaker 6: next week. I will meet you anywhere, anytime. And that

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Speaker 6: honestly was a huge breakthrough.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 6: Once I was there, boots on the ground, you know,

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Speaker 6: in the library, in the local archives, hanging out at

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Speaker 6: the American Legion bar at night, which I did, you know,

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Speaker 6: I became a presence. I became someone, and you know,

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Speaker 6: now I'm I'm getting access to folks who've never talked

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Speaker 6: before about Larry Bird.

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Speaker 4: People have known him their whole lives, you know, so

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Speaker 4: that was crucial.

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Speaker 6: But you know, one thing I do with a narrative

430
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Speaker 6: book like this is, you know, when you go to

431
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Speaker 6: a place, I want to see the places that I'm

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Speaker 6: writing about. So I'm going to the grave site of

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Speaker 6: Larry Bird's father, you know, which is on a hill

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Speaker 6: in dou Boys County, just south of French Lick. I'm

435
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 6: going to a bar called Butchies in do Boys, you know,

436
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Speaker 6: where Larry would hang out in the eighties in order

437
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Speaker 6: to get away from the tourists and the fans who

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Speaker 6: might drift down to French Lick to see him. You know,

439
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 6: I'm going to the Little Mansion, and I say little

440
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 6: mansion because it's not really a mansion that Larry builds

441
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 6: initially for his mother in West Baden Springs, just north

442
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 6: of French Lick after he signs with the Celtics. You know,

443
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 6: I'm standing in that driveway. I'm standing on the cracked,

444
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 6: you know, basketball court that Larry poured down in a

445
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 6: grove of trees there and would famously play Magic Johnson

446
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 6: on that court for a Converse commercial in nineteen eighty five.

447
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 6: You know, I want to see these places. I want

448
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 6: to describe what it looks like if the sun is rising,

449
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 6: you know. I want to describe the cracks and the pavement,

450
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 6: you know. So you know that's the kind of stuff

451
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,959
Speaker 6: I'm doing when I'm on the ground.

452
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: I mean that I'm sick to my stomach and filled

453
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: with anxiety thinking about landing in a place like French

454
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: Lick or as I've done in other places, and not

455
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: really knowing what you're going to get, not knowing if

456
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: anyone is going to talk to you. This is very

457
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: inside book writing, but I also think it's relevant for

458
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: broader context.

459
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: We're talking about just how to get shit done when you.

460
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: Land on the ground and you're in French Lick and

461
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: you're in that best Western are you like immediately getting

462
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: out on the town, trying to be at the bars,

463
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: at the restaurants, wherever are you texting people like how

464
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: are you making yourself a presence? And how anxious are

465
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: you that? Holy shit, I signed a book deal. I

466
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: got to deliver this book and nobody will talk to me.

467
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 4: So true.

468
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 6: I mean, let's talk about something that really matters to

469
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 6: Chad here, Simon the anxiety of having a book deal

470
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 6: and not knowing where it's going. I mean, that is

471
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 6: that's some real That's some real stuff, people, that's the

472
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 6: real stuff. And your wife doesn't want to see you

473
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 6: when you're in that place, your kids don't want to

474
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 6: see the dog doesn't want to see you when you're

475
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 6: in that places. It's all real, right, Chad, Right, I'm

476
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 6: talking real stuff here.

477
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 2: It is, dude.

478
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: My wife and I were going on a trip a

479
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, and you know, I haven't written a

480
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 1: book in fifteen years, and so she remembers sort of

481
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: that I used to get at what she calls book brain. Well,

482
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: I'm usually a pretty I am on the details, especially

483
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: when it comes to organization, household systems, logistics, truly annoying.

484
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: And we were at an airport, sitting at a gate

485
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: and my name was announced over the loudspeaker because I

486
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: left my bag in like where we had bought food

487
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 1: before our flight. And I had been sitting at the

488
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: gate for forty five minutes and didn't even notice my

489
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: bag was gone. And she looked at me and she goes,

490
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: oh shit, I forgot about book brain. Like you just

491
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: you're not present in anything there's only one thing you're

492
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: thinking about all the time, and it's the book.

493
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 6: I mean, this is a story I'll tell here and

494
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 6: only on this podcast, only for your listeners.

495
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I got two dogs.

496
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 6: And you know, the dogs need to be walked in

497
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 6: the day, and I work in a home office. You know,

498
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 6: I'm lucky to be able to do that, and you know,

499
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 6: but you know, when you're walking the dogs in the

500
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 6: middle of the day. Even sometimes when I'm listening to

501
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 6: your podcast, while I'm doing it, I'm thinking about my book,

502
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 6: or I'm thinking about the chapter I'm writing, or thinking

503
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 6: about the thing that hasn't the tumblr that hasn't fallen

504
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 6: through yet, right, And sometimes I'll actually curse out loud,

505
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 6: you know, not even knowing that I'm doing it, And

506
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 6: my poor dog will sometimes turn around to me, like, are.

507
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 4: You okay, buddy, are you okay? This is this is

508
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 4: the world we live in.

509
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 6: But I mean, back to your question, I mean, you know,

510
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 6: I don't want to paint too dire of of a

511
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 6: portrait here. Certainly, on that first trip to French Lick,

512
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 6: there was a lot unknown. I did have a couple

513
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 6: of footholds, you know, meetings, I had set up. I

514
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 6: wasn't coming in blind. I let the library and the

515
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 6: librarian know I was coming. I wanted access to certain

516
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 6: things that they had there, and only there. Librarians are

517
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 6: your friend, arkavis are your friend, and I reach out

518
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 6: to them like a lifeline in a book writing situation.

519
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,239
Speaker 6: But you know, you know, there certainly was anxiety, you know,

520
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 6: And I didn't even know. I mentioned a minute ago

521
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 6: the American Legion Bar in French Like, I didn't know

522
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 6: that existed. I didn't know that's where people hung out.

523
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 6: But once I was in the library and I was

524
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 6: doing the work there in the archive in the back room,

525
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 6: literally on the floor, scanning documents, very glamorous work, you know,

526
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 6: I asked the librarian, Hey, where can I find this

527
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 6: certain person?

528
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 4: You know? And it was a person who's you know,

529
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 4: old timer.

530
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 6: Knew Larry's dad had information you know that was maybe

531
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 6: helpful for me. And she said, well, he usually hangs

532
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 6: out at the American Legion Bar. And I said, well

533
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 6: where's that and what time do people go there? And

534
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 6: she said, well, the people are there now, it's like

535
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 6: four thirty and so you know, I will remember, you know,

536
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 6: pulling up outside the American le Jin bar. You know,

537
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 6: this is me, right, this is who I am, and

538
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 6: sitting outside in the car going well, I'm going in.

539
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 6: I guess I'm going in right, And you know, it's

540
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 6: one of those moments where you open the door to

541
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 6: this small little bar and it's like a record scratch

542
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 6: moment where literally everybody stops and turns around is like,

543
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 6: who is this guy?

544
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: Right?

545
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 6: I mean, french Lick is a town of about two

546
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 6: thousand people, seventeen hundred people. Everybody knows who hangs out

547
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 6: at the American Legion Bar. I am not that person.

548
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 6: And so it took me all of you know, from

549
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 6: getting from the door to the bar twelve steps where

550
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 6: I find I had to start introducing myself because people

551
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 6: are like, you don't belong here. But as soon as

552
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 6: I said who I was and what I was working on,

553
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 6: I mean, people were thrilled. They were thrilled you know

554
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 6: that someone was there who was taking an interest, and

555
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 6: they were excited to talk. And I'll be honest, on

556
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 6: every occasion that I've been back in french Lick for reporting,

557
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 6: you know, I go to the American Legion Bar and

558
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 6: and now I don't go necessarily to do reporting, although

559
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 6: when you're there you do meet people. I go because

560
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 6: when I walk in, they know me there now.

561
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: Amazing.

562
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you know for someone like me, I think

563
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: of Larry as someone that you know through TikTok or Instagram.

564
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 3: You just see clips and hear stories about players talking

565
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: about them. Right, that's the new generation. That's kind of

566
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 3: our intro to Larry Bird. Right, just his whole complex

567
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: being cold blooded, just you know, a legendary killer, and

568
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: when you talk about sports, you put him on the

569
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: pedestal of the guy like Kobe where he's that same

570
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 3: cold blooded type.

571
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 5: And you know, obviously you dove into it.

572
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: He's obviously a much more complex person obviously, just you know,

573
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: people come off he's a super confident. Do that be

574
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 3: people are afraid of? I would just love you to

575
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 3: explain what is his?

576
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 5: Now? Who is Larry Bird?

577
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 4: Yeah?

578
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 6: You know those tiktoks and those memes, you know they're accurate.

579
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 6: You know, they capture, they capture who Larry Bird was,

580
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 6: especially as an NBA player, you know, once he got

581
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 6: to the league and established himself there, you know, that's

582
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 6: really where he comes into his own as a trash talker,

583
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 6: you know, and someone who was, to use your term Simon,

584
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 6: a killer.

585
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 4: But you know that was in him from the start.

586
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 6: You know, he was he he had that in him

587
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 6: all the way back at Springs Valley High School, you know,

588
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy three, seventy four.

589
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 4: He has that in.

590
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 6: Him, you know, when he shows up at Indiana States

591
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,239
Speaker 6: in the summer of nineteen seventy five. But you know,

592
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 6: it's it's a bit of a shallow profile I think

593
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 6: of this man. You know, he he absolutely had confidence

594
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 6: in himself that was unshakable from the start.

595
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 4: But he was also a sensitive young man.

596
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: You know.

597
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 6: He he bristled, you know, at people who did and

598
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 6: said small things that rubbed him the wrong way. You know, he,

599
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 6: you know, was honest and admitting later that he would

600
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 6: shut down, you know if he felt someone had slighted him,

601
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 6: wronged him.

602
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 4: You know, he, you know, I think.

603
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 6: Struggled to to play well with others and integrate well

604
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 6: with others in situations where he felt uncomfortable. I think

605
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 6: that is absolutely what happened in Bloomington at Indiana University

606
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 6: in the late summer of nineteen seventy four. You know,

607
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 6: as many of your listeners will know, you know, Bird

608
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 6: first signs with Bobby Knight at Indiana, and you know,

609
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 6: people hear that and think, well, well, he must have

610
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 6: been somebody, he must have been great.

611
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: That's not really true.

612
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 6: You know, Bird was not a first team All State

613
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 6: player in Indiana in nineteen seventy four. In fact, according

614
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 6: to voters in Indiana that year, there were fifteen players

615
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 6: who were better than Larry Bird.

616
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 4: He makes the state.

617
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 6: All Star team, which is a big deal in Indiana,

618
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 6: but he only really does so because a columnist in

619
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 6: a little town and southern Indiana really advocates for him.

620
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 6: And when he makes that team, he hardly plays, which

621
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 6: infuriates him. And so when he shows up in Bloomington

622
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 6: in late August seventy four, he's not a big deal.

623
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 6: He's not a big star. And that Indiana team is

624
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 6: truly great. You know, they're going to win, They're going

625
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 6: to have an undefeated season one year later without Larry,

626
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 6: that's how good they are. And so when Larry shows

627
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 6: up there, they don't care about him. You know, they

628
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 6: treat him like every other freshman, especially a freshman from

629
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 6: a little town and a little school that nobody's heard of.

630
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 6: And you know, I don't think anything nefarious happens while

631
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 6: Larry's you know, Aaron Bloomington for twenty three twenty one days.

632
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,919
Speaker 6: I just I don't think he can handle that, which

633
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 6: is why he leaves and goes home.

634
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 2: Do you feel like Larry Bird today?

635
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: You mentioned the slights, you mentioned the sensitivities.

636
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: He refused to speak to the.

637
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: Media several times. You've mentioned his father a couple times.

638
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: You know, his father committed suicide and that was not

639
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,439
Speaker 1: and Larry Bird had a kid early in his life.

640
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: I think he was eighteen nineteen and was married. These

641
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: were things that were not well known, but reporters found

642
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: them out and then wrote about them.

643
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 2: How do you think a Larry Bird.

644
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: Of today manages the storm of social media, of NonStop attention.

645
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: Does Larry Bird have a chance to become Larry Bird

646
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: under circumstances like today?

647
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 4: You know, you're right, Chad.

648
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 6: In the nineteen seventies he had these these secrets, if

649
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 6: you will, you know, in his closet. And I want

650
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 6: to be clear, right, I just wrote a book about

651
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 6: Pete Rose, who had real problems in his past. You know,

652
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 6: real controversies, lies about terrible things, right, That is not

653
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 6: the Larry Bird story. But he has these things, you know,

654
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 6: you mention it, his his father commits suicide.

655
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 4: This is a real trauma.

656
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 6: They don't use that word in nineteen seventy five, but

657
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 6: that's what that is, right, We know that.

658
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 4: Now it is a trauma.

659
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 6: You know, he marries young, as a lot of you know,

660
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 6: kids from small towns did in the nineteen seventies. That

661
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 6: does not end well, you know. And you know the

662
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 6: press in Tara Hote, you know, they know these stories

663
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 6: in seventy five, seventy six, seventy seven, they know them

664
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 6: and they don't write about them.

665
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 4: You know.

666
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 6: It's one of those classic things where the press knows

667
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 6: things that they're not, you know, revealing to the fans,

668
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 6: to the public, to the readers. But from the moment

669
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 6: that Larry hits the cover of Sports Illustrated and in

670
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 6: November of seventy seven, you know, he is now you know,

671
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 6: fair game, you know to the national media, and you

672
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 6: know it's a great story. There's a reason why Sports

673
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 6: Illustrated is coming in eight weeks later to write a

674
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 6: massive profile on him, because this is an impossible story.

675
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 6: This never should have happened. But when they do show

676
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 6: up of course, they want to do the kind of

677
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 6: work that we do. You know, they want to tell

678
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 6: his backstory.

679
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 4: And you know, I.

680
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 6: Interviewed almost every reporter who crossed paths with Bird in

681
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 6: a meaningful way in the seventies. I think talking to

682
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 6: the media who cover someone is a really useful thing.

683
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 6: And one of them was the Sports Illustrated writer that

684
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 6: some of you will know, certainly, Chad, you'll know Larry Keith.

685
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 6: Larry Keith a longtime writer for Sports Illustrated. And you know,

686
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 6: Larry was a huge deal in seventy seven seventy eight,

687
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 6: one of the best writers in the country, big name.

688
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 6: He shows up in Terre Haute in January of seventy

689
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 6: eight and he makes a mistake. You know, he tells

690
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 6: Bird that he's there to write us a profile of

691
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 6: him and show that he's more than just a basketball player.

692
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 6: And the moment that Keith says that, it's just like

693
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 6: a light switch, you know, Bird goes dark, just shuts down,

694
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 6: and so Keith has to do that week sort of

695
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 6: what I had to do in a lot of ways.

696
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 6: You know, he's got to go interview everybody else about Larry. Okay,

697
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 6: Larry's not going to talk to him, but he's got

698
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 6: this job to do. What's how's he going to tell

699
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 6: this story? So he's talking to people in French lick.

700
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 6: He's you know, the first who sort of breaks news

701
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 6: about you know, Larry's past. And you know, in a

702
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 6: lot of ways, Larry's grown up. And he said that himself.

703
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 6: You know, he's matured obviously a lot none of us

704
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 6: are who we were when we were eighteen nineteen years old.

705
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 2: You know.

706
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 6: And Larry's done today what he wanted to do in

707
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 6: seventy seven, seventy eight, seventy nine. You know, he's finally disappeared.

708
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 6: You know, he doesn't engage, He isn't on social media,

709
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 6: and and you know, based on the people that I've interviewed,

710
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 6: and I mean his closest friends, people he's texting right now,

711
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 6: Larry doesn't care, you know, what people are saying are

712
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 6: doing about him and I and I think that's that's

713
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 6: there's something admirable about that.

714
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 1: What I should have asked you this in the beginning.

715
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: He told me the why. But how did you even

716
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: come up with the idea?

717
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 6: You know, I'd finished the Pete Rose book, I'd finished

718
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 6: Charlie Hustle. It wasn't out yet, you know, and that's

719
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 6: a time when you're you're dreaming up story ideas, you're

720
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 6: dreaming up projects, possibilities. You know, I've got a list

721
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 6: on the wall here of potential things that I might

722
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 6: want to dig into. And you know, I'm from the Midwest.

723
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 6: I'm from Cincinnati. I spent a lot of time back

724
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 6: there during the reporting of Charlie Hustle. And while that

725
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 6: book was in a lot of way is exactly like

726
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 6: all my other books. It's narrative nonfiction, I'm not in it.

727
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 6: It was more personal.

728
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 5: You know.

729
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 6: I was back in my home. I was almost writing

730
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 6: a postcard, you know, from my past. And as I

731
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 6: was doing that, I was just thinking about other Midwestern stories.

732
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 6: And you know, someone mentioned to me, oh, you should

733
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 6: do you know, a Larry Bird biography, and I was like,

734
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 6: I don't. I don't want to do a Larry Bird biography,

735
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 6: but you know, I might be interested in just this

736
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 6: little window of time, this this Indiana state story. And

737
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 6: so I just started noodling around on it. I you know,

738
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 6: went down the rabbit hole. And you know, without giving

739
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 6: away too much, there was a scene, a moment in

740
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 6: late March nineteen seventy nine, after the Bird Magic Game,

741
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 6: after this team, this miracle team has returned to Tara

742
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 6: Haute returned home. That happens that when I read it,

743
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 6: I couldn't believe it, and I thought it couldn't be right.

744
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 6: It was just too amazing, it was too great, it

745
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 6: was too cinematic. And once I stumbled onto that sort

746
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 6: of ending, I almost worked in reverse.

747
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: Larry doesn't strike me as a guy that likes to

748
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 3: even live in the past, let alone talk about the past.

749
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 3: Did you, like have to reach out to him a

750
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 3: bunch of times? Did he ever respond no or just

751
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 3: never respond? What was what was that interaction?

752
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 6: Like I did reach out to Larry, you know, I

753
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 6: reached out, you know, through his proper channels, through his agent.

754
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 6: I would say I made three or four official approaches,

755
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 6: you know, and you know the initial reproach was cordial

756
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 6: and no, and it's sort of unraveled from there, you know,

757
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 6: you know, and I don't know why. You know, I

758
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 6: don't know why. You know, this isn't a Pete Rose story,

759
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 6: you know, where someone has real problems that they hid

760
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 6: and lied about. You know, they're didn't I didn't understand

761
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 6: at times the resistance, you know, But once I was

762
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 6: working trying to get in through the front door, I

763
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,439
Speaker 6: was also trying to get in through the back door

764
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 6: or the side door, you know.

765
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 4: As I mentioned, you know, I got.

766
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 6: Pretty close with Larry's closest friends, and I mean the

767
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 6: people he's in contact with right now. Not Danny Ainge,

768
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 6: not Kevin McHale, you know, but his friends, the people

769
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 6: he hangs out with. Today, they sat down with me,

770
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 6: you know, they granted access to me long interviews, and

771
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 6: so now I'm asking them, hey, can you please help me,

772
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 6: you know, connect with Larry.

773
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 4: And you know I.

774
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 6: Want to do that, of course, for all the obvious reasons.

775
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 6: But you know, I've learned over the years through this project,

776
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 6: the Charlie Hustle project, and many that you know, while

777
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 6: it's always helpful, of course, to talk to the subject

778
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 6: of the center of the story, you can sometimes get

779
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 6: a more accurate portrait by talking to twelve, fifteen, twenty five,

780
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 6: one hundred people who were watching the person at the

781
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 6: center of the story. And in this case, you know,

782
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,959
Speaker 6: Heartland is more than just a book about Larry Bird.

783
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 6: It is a story of a team, a time, a Place,

784
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 6: Bill Hodge's, Larry's roommates, Larry's teammates, this town, and so

785
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 6: you know, all of those people were speaking to me,

786
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 6: and it was through those interviews that I was able

787
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 6: to tell this story.

788
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: Keith O'Brien, you nailed it. It was fantastic, great book.

789
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: All the reporting comes out perfectly woven. Love the book, Heartland,

790
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: Forgotten Place and Impossible Dream and the Miracle.

791
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: Of Larry Bird.

792
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's fair to say you're the

793
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: Dostyevsky of twentieth century sports nonfiction. If The Gambler was

794
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: written today, you might be writing it. Keith Obrien, I

795
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: hope you sell a million copies, brother a million.

796
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, Chad, thank you, Simon. It was

797
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 6: so awesome to be back with you guys.

798
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: This has been Sharper Square, part of the Volume podcast network.

799
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 1: Watch or listen on YouTube, but Sharper Square like the video,

800
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: Subscribe to the channel, downloads on Spotify, Apple Pods wherever

801
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: you get your pods.

802
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 2: Rate review, subscribe. Wevi was five stars. Say whatever you want.

803
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 2: Feedback is a gift. Until next time. I love you,