1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: This is an elimination homicide. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 3: Bessie, whether it be the extortion schemes or something else 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 3: she was involved with, wanted her gone, and they wanted 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 3: her gone quickly, and they didn't want her to be found. 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked On Exactly Right. I've 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 10 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 14 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. 17 00:00:58,200 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 2: My name is Paul Hols. 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 3: I'm a retired cold case investigator out of Contracosta County 19 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 3: at Just Attorney's Office. 20 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: Which is in the Bay Area, California. 21 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 3: You know, over the course of my career, I consulted 22 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 3: for a wide variety of agencies in the Bay Area, 23 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 3: not just within Contracosta County, but in the surrounding region. 24 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: My wheelhouse was cold cases. 25 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 3: However, I also was pulled into active cases if they 26 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 3: needed somebody who had a different type of expertise than 27 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 3: the people that they typically would. 28 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 2: Be relying upon. 29 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: So what would that be as far as cold cases go. 30 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 3: Over the decades, I ended up being involved in many, 31 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 3: many cold cases that had a broad spectrum of different 32 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: types of circumstances, but my specialty generally was leaning towards 33 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 3: the serial predator, the fantasy motivated predator. 34 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's why you're going to be 35 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: really helpful for me in this cold case, which is 36 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: important to me because it appears in one of my books, 37 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: and it's a cold case from nineteen twenty five. Just 38 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: give you a little bit of background. The book that 39 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: I wrote, American Chrlock, was about Oscar Heinrich, who was 40 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: a forensic scientist in the night twenties. He started in 41 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: nineteen ten and he closed more than two thousand cases 42 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: by the time he retired in nineteen fifty three. In 43 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: this case happens in the middle of the book in 44 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty five. So I'm just gonna lay this out, Paul, 45 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: and then I'm going to ask you a bunch of 46 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: questions and you can interrupt me and jump in. So 47 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: this happens August of nineteen twenty five. There is a 48 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: boy who is walking around the marsh in Elsirito, California, 49 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: which is in northern California. And he's walking around the marsh. 50 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: He's collecting sort of a table setting, I suppose for 51 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: his mother, and he sees something on the ground that 52 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: looks like a baby bird that might have died. Okay, 53 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: he walks over, he looks down and it is a 54 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: piece of a scalp with an ear attached. He takes 55 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,839 Speaker 1: it to his dad. His dad calls the police. And 56 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: at this point in Oscar Heinrich's career, he's brought in 57 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: fairly early into cases because he's really established himself as 58 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: a solid forensic scientist. And he looks at this ear 59 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: and they say to him, there's no other parts of 60 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: the body. We have no clue where this body is. 61 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: So it is clear to him that this has been 62 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: someone who has been dismembered. So let's start there, just 63 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: from your expertise in profiling and your interest in it. 64 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: This is fifty years before the FBI established the Behavioral 65 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: Science Unit. Oscar was interested in the dismemberment factor. So 66 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: what is that about? What mentality is that? 67 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: It actually is varied. 68 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 3: There is just a pure functional aspect to dismemberment, and 69 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: that is disposal of the body. To make the disposal 70 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: of the body easier as well as more efficient, less 71 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 3: likely to be caught. A vast majority of the population 72 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 3: do not have any experience in looking at body parts 73 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: out of context, and so depending on how the body 74 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 3: has been dismembered, it's possible that somebody could even see 75 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: it and not recognize that that is part of a human. 76 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: Okay, so we move forward. Oscar Heinrich to the forensic 77 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: scientist has the air in the scalp. Luckily for me, 78 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: he was a fantastic photographer and he chronicled everything. So 79 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: he does all his measurements, he examines it all, and 80 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: he finds a couple of things. One I noticed that 81 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: this person had a pierced ear, and so did pine Rich. 82 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: So he assumed this would be a woman. This was 83 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: actually unusual in the nineteen twenties. This was a woman 84 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: who wanted to be fashionable, so already he's able to 85 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: build a profile of who this person is. 86 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: And that is interesting to me. You know. 87 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 3: It's those little clues, and it's also sort of the 88 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: understanding the culture at the time the crime is committed. 89 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 3: That is so important in cold case work is you 90 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 3: can't look at the case in twenty twenty one. You 91 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 3: have to look at the case as it occurred in 92 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty five and understand that culture, and that gives 93 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 3: you more insight into the dynamics of the offender and 94 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: the victim. 95 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. 96 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 3: I had never heard that pierced ears were not common 97 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 3: back then, but that was more for maybe individuals that 98 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 3: more and more prominent in society. 99 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: Maybe this was just catching on. And the only reason 100 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: I thought about this was because I just remember having 101 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: a box of my grandmother's clip on earrings and I 102 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: just remember going, Okay, this was from the nineteen twenties 103 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: and thirties, When did the piercings begin? So when I 104 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: started researching this case, I thought, Okay, when did this happen? 105 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: She also, I noticed, had a lot of freckling on 106 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: her ears, so obviously she had spent some time outside. 107 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,119 Speaker 1: She might have spent more time outdoors than a woman 108 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: who was sort of high society. She had blonde hair, 109 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: so he determined, and he was correct, that she was 110 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: of Scandinavian descent. 111 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 3: And I know you sent me a copy of this 112 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 3: picture and I'm going to pull it up. 113 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: What's notable is the lack of decomposition. 114 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 3: Relatively speaking, this should have looked so much worse if 115 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: this had been somebody who, let's say, drowned and washed 116 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 3: up on the shore, or had been out hiking or 117 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 3: something else and died out there in the marsh. 118 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: That's not what I'm seeing. 119 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: And let's talk about time of death. He had a 120 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: theory about it. This was the first case in the 121 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: United States where someone used forensic entomology the way that 122 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: bugs arived. I know you know about this. It's the 123 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: theory that certain bugs arrived to a body during certain 124 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: stages of decomposition. Blowflies come first, legs, then beetles, and 125 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: so on and so on. He found blowflies only so 126 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: that means, to his estimate, least it was deposited somewhere 127 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: between twenty four and forty eight hours. Does that square 128 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: with you? 129 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 130 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 3: There is that whole succession of insects that arrive blowflies. 131 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 3: They are there within minutes after death. It's shocking how 132 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: fast I've seen that happen. I absolutely agree this was 133 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 3: a very fortunate find, if you will, that somebody was 134 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 3: out in this location and happened to look and say, oh, 135 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 3: this looks different and call it in. 136 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. The next step for Oscar was examining the 137 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: scalp and the ear, and he was expecting to find 138 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: a lot of mud because in this marsh it was 139 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: sort of this black tar stick your foot in and 140 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: it doesn't come out kind of marsh. So he examines it. 141 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: Of course there's mud, but the key thing that he 142 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: does here inside the canal of the ear, and he 143 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: finds a grain of sand. Okay, not present in the 144 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: marsh anywhere, So this is slightly complicated. He has the 145 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: police kind of breathing down his neck. Where's the rest 146 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: of the body. They searched, of course, the marsh and 147 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: tried to drain it. They couldn't find anything else. He 148 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: takes this grain of sand and Oscar, in a previous 149 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: life was a sanitary engineer, so he used a process 150 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: with a very special microscope to look with a special 151 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: prism underneath the microscope to see the composition of sand 152 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: or or anything that he was using to help design highways. 153 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: So he uses this microscope and he figures out the 154 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: composition of the sand, and he sees the chlorine deposits 155 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: and the salt deposits, and he says to the cops, 156 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: I have a place for you to look. And he 157 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: opens up this geological survey map and the cops say, great, 158 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: how close is it? And he said twelve miles away 159 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: And they said, how is that possible? And he said, okay, 160 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: the amount of salt that is attached to this grain 161 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: of sand and chlorine is not enough to come from 162 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: beach on El Serrita right on the beach. It's small, 163 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: some sort of like a stream that comes off. It's 164 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: a small amount of salt. And then he said, in 165 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: the deposits that make up this grain of sand, and 166 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: he had it blown up so that it looked like 167 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: a boulder, the deposits that make up this grain of 168 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: sand are really narrowed down to one place. It's called 169 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: Bay Farm Island and it's twelve miles away from here. 170 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: And he circled essentially a one or two mile space 171 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: of course, the cops said, you're crazy, and they sent 172 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 1: a whole team out anyway, and guess what they found, 173 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: Bags of body parts from this woman. This is forensic geology, 174 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: and it was the first in the nation yet again 175 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: of something that he used to figure out where the 176 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: body was. 177 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 3: For many many years in my office, I had a 178 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 3: geological soil survey map from the nineteen thirties of my jurisdiction, 179 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 3: Contracosta County, hung up and it actually came into play 180 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 3: because I had a body that had mud on it 181 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 3: that was not from the location where the body was found, 182 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 3: and ended up having a soil expert help pinpoint where 183 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 3: this mud could be from. Unfortunately, it was too ubiquitous 184 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: in order to narrow down a region, you know, like 185 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 3: in this case. However, that is a very real part 186 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: of forensic science that often has. 187 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: Overlooked and legitimate. It is not junk science. Forensic geology 188 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: is real. 189 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: It very much is. 190 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: And you know, for him to be employing this back 191 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty five, and the fact that they even 192 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: had that kind of survey with that kind of detail 193 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 3: is incredible. There is a level of instinct that he 194 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 3: is following. Okay, Bay Farm Island. Yes, absolutely, that could 195 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 3: be a source of this, but also somebody could have 196 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 3: visited Bay Farm Island. This is part of trace evidence 197 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: as you get secondary and tertiary transfers. So you could 198 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: also make a statement along the lines this body part 199 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 3: had been in a vehicle in which somebody had visited 200 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: that location. 201 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: So this is someone who seems to be comfortable in 202 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: sort of some remote areas, the Twulay Marshes, and this 203 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: was under Bayfarm Island Bridge. I'm not sure even exists anymore. 204 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 2: I don't know. 205 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: Here's what we have. We have multiple bags of pretty 206 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: decomposed body parts, which is surprising because, as you pointed out, 207 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: the scalp in the ear were not greatly decomposed. So 208 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: he typed it with the blowflies and said twenty four 209 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: to forty eight hours. What they found were bags of 210 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: decomposed body parts that seemed much older. What Oscar discovered, 211 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: and this is going to be really important in your 212 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: profiling here of this case, is that someone used lime. 213 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 3: Okay, in terms of applying a chemical to speed up 214 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 3: the breakdown of the tissues. This is somebody who is 215 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 3: really trying to render this body unrecognizable as fast as possible. 216 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 3: Sounds like we have most of the body being found 217 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: Bayfarm Island, but then we have a scalp piece found 218 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: up in else Rito in the Tuley Marsh. So now 219 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 3: they're distributing parts of the body. So that's also trying 220 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 3: to further make the association of these various body parts 221 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 3: more difficult in the event that they're discovered. 222 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: These bags were buried pretty strategically. Now we're at a 223 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: point where it looks like he's doing a pretty good 224 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: job covering this up. If it weren't for Oscar Heinrich 225 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 1: and this special microscope that he used, we're not sure 226 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: these would have been recovered anytime soon. Let's talk about 227 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: what happens in the seventies with the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, 228 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: and they come up with two terms that I think 229 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: are really interesting that I think we could use here, 230 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: disorganized versus organized killer. Yes, I'm not the expert here, 231 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 1: but this falls under the organized killer. Is that right? 232 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: Absolutely, with the way the FBI used those terms. 233 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 3: And my understanding is is the current profilers have moved 234 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 3: away from categorizing offenders in those types of discrete categories. 235 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 3: But for me, as an investigator who is just trying 236 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: to understand the offender. The organized and disorganized categories are 237 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: extremely invaluable, and to compare a contrast, your disorganized effect 238 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 3: is the offender that generally is on the spectrum of 239 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: having possibly a psychosis or a mental illness. They're not 240 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 3: thinking about preserving their own freedom to try to get 241 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 3: away with the crime. They act impulsively, they commit the crime. 242 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 3: That spontaneous aspect leads to them leaving a lot of evidence. 243 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 3: Witnesses see them coming and going. They're leaving their DNA, 244 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 3: they're leaving their latency. There is no planning, whereas you're 245 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: more organized offender. If you're dealing with a very sophisticated 246 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 3: and intelligent offender, they plan their crimes and it's not 247 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 3: just who is going to be my victim? And how 248 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: am I going to get to that person after I 249 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: do what I want to do, how am I going 250 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 3: to get away with the crime. And so in this case, 251 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 3: we are now seeing that there is this level of dismemberment, 252 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 3: the application of the chemical to speed up the process, 253 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 3: which they would have had access to in addition to 254 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 3: the ability to move around at east along the eastern 255 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 3: coast of the Bay to help start hiding the body parts? 256 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 3: How am I going to get away with this? And 257 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 3: so that is your organized defender. 258 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: Does this sound like someone who's done this before? Or 259 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: is it possible that someone could be this organized, this 260 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: good just on the first go. 261 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 3: Round, you could have somebody who has been involved in 262 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 3: this body disposal process before. However, if you have a 263 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 3: reasonably intelligent person who is thinking about, I want to 264 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 3: commit a crime for whatever reason, how am I going 265 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 3: to get away with it? What resources do I readily 266 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 3: have access to or can get access to in order 267 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 3: to get those resources lined up ahead of time in 268 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 3: order to accomplish the crime. 269 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: That's your intelligent offender. 270 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: And so your intelligent offender can do some things that 271 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: oftentimes I've seen investigators or even other experts make the 272 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 3: mistake of, oh, this person must have done this before. 273 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 2: Not necessarily. 274 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 3: You have deep thinkers out there that commit crimes, and 275 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 3: the first time they do it, they do a good job. 276 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: So now we're moving from we found the body to 277 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: who is she is? What the police want to know 278 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: from Oscar? So let's identify her. What happened over the 279 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: couple of days where they were really trying to figure 280 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,599 Speaker 1: this out is. Of course, there was publicity. This was 281 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: a high profile case at the time in nineteen twenty five, 282 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: and there were people who were bringing up missing women. 283 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: Oscar had profiled her based on how you would typically 284 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: figure out how old someone was based on her height, 285 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: and he was also able to find a crown from 286 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: her skull. So they were checking with local dentists and 287 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,239 Speaker 1: eventually she was identified as a young woman named Bessie Ferguson, 288 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: and Bessie had an interesting background that we'll talk a 289 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: little bit about, which I think falls under victimology. Is 290 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: that right? Is that one of the what is that 291 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: one of the ways that we go from the victim 292 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: to figuring out who the killer was? Explain that for me? 293 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: Right Victimology is a very broad term. It refers to, 294 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 3: of course, who the person is. You know, their name, 295 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: their background, and where do they work, their education, you know, 296 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: to try to establish, okay, this is the type of 297 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 3: person the victim was. The victimology also encompasses their social circles. 298 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 3: It encompasses their personality. If they were confronted by an offender, 299 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 3: how would this person respond? 300 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: Are they a fighter? 301 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: Are they somebody who would go passive and basically allow 302 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 3: the offender to command them. So that plays into not 303 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 3: only the investigative side, who's in this victim social circles, 304 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 3: it also plays into the behavioral assessment of what happened 305 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 3: between the offender and the victim. 306 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: Well, based on the victim's. 307 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 3: Personality, this is how we would expect that person to 308 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: respond when confronted with a violent situation, a crime situation. 309 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 3: And then of course there's risk assessment in terms of 310 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 3: is this victim somebody who is partaking in certain aspects 311 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 3: that is elevating their likelihood of becoming the victim of 312 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 3: a crime. Is this a person that is going out 313 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 3: on the street corps in the middle of the night 314 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 3: and buying drugs, They're more likely to be shot by 315 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 3: a drug dealer. It elevates their risk than somebody who 316 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: never does that. So understanding victimology is huge. 317 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: Victimology plays a very important role in this case. I 318 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: agree with you. So Heinrich calls in her parents, Bessie 319 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: Ferguson's parents, and I have all of his notes where 320 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: he details her life. She came from a family of 321 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: four young women, and her parents were married. They seem 322 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: to have a pretty nice life together. They were a 323 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: very tight knit Bessie was a nurse, she became a 324 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: private nurse. She worked for hospitals also. She had been 325 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: recently unemployed, but she did a lot of odd jobs. 326 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: What we find out about Bessie Ferguson is that she 327 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: had dated a few men and in order to make 328 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: some money, she had, according to her parents and according 329 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: to notes that they found in her apartment, convinced some 330 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: of these men that she was pregnant with their children 331 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: and she needed money for child support. We're talking with 332 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: Paul Holes about a cold case, a very cold case, 333 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenty five murder of Bessie Ferguson, and how 334 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: the forensic scientist Edward Oscar Heinrich investigated it. We've just 335 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: discovered that Bessie was extorting men for child support payments 336 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: for kids that didn't exist. There was no evidence that 337 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: she was pregnant. And we'll talk about a little bit 338 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: because a botched abortion was one of the theories that 339 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: Oscar pretty quickly dismissed, and I'll tell you why. There 340 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: is a list of suspects with various backgrounds. Suspect number 341 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: one is a man named Gordon Rowe who was a businessman. 342 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: He owned a hunting cabin. Had you read anything about 343 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: Gordon Rowe, He was really one of the biggest suspects, 344 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: besides the sheriff that you mentioned. 345 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: I had not. 346 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 3: My understanding is is that she had dated multiple prominent 347 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 3: individuals within the Oakland society. Oakland of course being right 348 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 3: there in the Bay area, just south of Els Rito, 349 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 3: so that of course was significant. And then the one 350 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: potential suspect the sheriff. 351 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: So the first one on the list who I mentioned, 352 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: Gordon Rowe, was a businessman who she had worked with. 353 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: They had been having an affair. Notes found in her 354 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: apartment indicated that he thought she needed to raise the 355 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: baby he would help. But there were other notes that 356 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: were a little more acerbic from different men who only 357 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: signed with initials, smartly threatening her about keeping the baby. 358 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: These are not babies who existed, so this becomes very 359 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: complicated for Oscar trying to find information from her parents 360 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: without offending them. Police probably are a little more comfortable 361 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: with asking pointed questions of victims' families now, but you 362 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: can imagine in the twenties been touchy. Have you had 363 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: to handle the victim who was not the quote unquote 364 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: innocent victim that we come to expect in the. 365 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 3: Media, notably as an example with Golden State Killer. As 366 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 3: I was marching down on suspects, I often track down 367 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: ex wives or ex girlfriends. These were women who were 368 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 3: dating my suspects back in the nineteen seventies, and so 369 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 3: today they're sixty seventy years old, and now I'm talking 370 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 3: to them about their ex part of that investigation, just 371 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 3: due to the circumstances of what the Golden State Killer 372 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 3: was doing during the Commissioner's crimes, is I would need 373 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 3: to know details about their sexual history with that man. 374 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 3: And so that is a skill that I developed, you know, 375 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 3: in terms of being able to talk to women and 376 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 3: get them comfortable enough with me to where now they 377 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 3: are relaying very intimate details about their physical encounters with. 378 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 2: The suspects that I was looking at. 379 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 3: That's something that I have personal experience, and it can 380 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 3: be very hard to do depending on the person. And 381 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: you know, some of these individuals I was talking to 382 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 3: are much more forthcoming, and then others are more of 383 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 3: the prim and proper type, like what I would expect 384 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 3: the family of Bessie Ferguson would have been back in 385 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty five. 386 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was a very uncomfortable conversation for 387 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: both Oscar and for the family. Oscar was interesting because 388 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: for a person who was in the field of forensic scientists, 389 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: who was in the field with all of these cops, 390 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: he was pretty fussy. He believed in nineteen twenty five 391 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: that women should still be wearing corsets and be chaperoned. 392 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: And so I was surprised when he empathized so much 393 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: with Bessie Ferguson that he really sort of took up 394 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: the torch for her. At this point, he understands her background, 395 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: he understands that she was potentially extorting men for money, 396 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: and he still has an incredible amount of pain and 397 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: empathy for her parents and for her, and he's determined 398 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: to find the killer. Do you find your maybe with 399 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: the Golden State Killer with another case, Do you find 400 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: yourself as an investigator being drawn into the emotions of 401 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: the family and being almost too invested? 402 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 3: Sometimes that absolutely does happen for me, I know, not 403 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 3: only just with Golden State Killer, but with you know, 404 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: multiple other cases. Seeing the trauma that the families have 405 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 3: gone through by the loss of their loved ones, and 406 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 3: then looking at the photos of the victim. I've had 407 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 3: family members give me photos of victims as you know, 408 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 3: as they grew up, and then I knew what happened 409 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 3: to that victim, and you know what the last moments 410 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 3: their life were like. Knowing that nobody's life should ever 411 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 3: end that way, it becomes where it's not just a case. 412 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 3: It becomes something that is very personal, becomes an obligation 413 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 3: to pursue these to the best of my abilities. And 414 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 3: I think with Heinrich, what I'm hearing is, you know, 415 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 3: on one hand, he had a personal life philosophy that 416 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 3: was sort of in line with men at the time. 417 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 3: What I can respect, though, is he didn't do the 418 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 3: victim blaming. He basically recognized that no matter what Bessie 419 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 3: was doing, nobody should have ever ended up like this, 420 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: and whoever did this to her, even if they were 421 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 3: potentially going to be extorted by her, that is not 422 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 3: justification for how her life was ended. 423 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: And one thing that he felt that it was important 424 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: for people to know, at least according to his notes 425 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: in the memo that he sent the district attorney, was 426 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: that she had an older brother at one point who 427 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: had a stroke before he passed away. She took care 428 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: of him. She was a nurse. She was a very 429 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: caring person. She had just been caught up with some things. 430 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: So back to Gordon Rowe. He is a hunter besides 431 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: being a businessman, and there is a hunting cabin, which 432 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: of course sends off all kinds of alarms with the police. 433 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: So Oscar goes out to the hunting cabin and he says, 434 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: it smells like death. He looks at the blood, he 435 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: looks at knives that were potentially there. He concludes that 436 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: this is not the crime scene. This is not where 437 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: a human body would have been dismembered. This is animal blood. 438 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: He looked into Gordon's background, He interviewed everybody around him. 439 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: He looked at his behavior before and after the crime, 440 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: his alibi, and signed off on him. This is not 441 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: the guy who did it, which is probably why you 442 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: hadn't heard about him. So is that hard to do? 443 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: At what point do you say, let's cross this guy 444 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: off the list and move on. 445 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: It is very hard to do. 446 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 3: Of course, in modern day times, we have eliminating evidence. 447 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 3: We have let's say DNA that we know is from 448 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 3: the offender, and that DNA profile from the offender does 449 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: not match the suspects of DNA. 450 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: That's easy. 451 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 3: But to base an elimination off of an assessment of 452 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 3: the person based on how they are interviewed, based on 453 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 3: an assessment of where they likely would have committed the 454 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 3: crime and there's no evidence, that is so much harder 455 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 3: to do. I've been there and I've done that, and 456 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 3: it's uncomfortable, and I've learned that even though I say 457 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 3: I don't think this is the guy, it's think I 458 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 3: find something else during the course of my work that oh, 459 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 3: I got to reconsider that. That guy is always on 460 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 3: the table if I don't have that hard elimination. So 461 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 3: with Heinrich eliminating Row, you know he's assessing the hunting 462 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 3: cabin and is going this is animal. 463 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: Row now moves low down on the priority. 464 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: But he should never be taken off the list because 465 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 3: something could change. A new fact comes in and then 466 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 3: all of a sudden Row is front and center and 467 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 3: you have to step back and put your ego aside 468 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 3: and go, Okay, maybe I misjudged my early assessment on 469 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 3: this guy and I need to reconsider the new facts. 470 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: So back to building a profile, which is really important 471 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: to Heinrich. There are a couple of things at play. 472 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: I think that Heinrich is channeling the people who profiled 473 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper because he looks at the dismembered pieces 474 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: and he says not the expertise of a surgeon, much 475 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: more of someone with some kind of medical background, And 476 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: unfortunate for him, most of the people on Bessie Ferguson's 477 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: list of extorted men or either dentists or doctors. What 478 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: do we even think about that about the medical professional 479 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: in Jack the Ripper and beyond. 480 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 3: I've kind of gone on a rant a little bit 481 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 3: about people assessing dismembered remains and forming an opinions that 482 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 3: it's showing the skill of a surgeon. Only a surgeon 483 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 3: or somebody trained in the medical field could have done this. 484 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 3: Even just within this case, you know, we have row 485 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 3: a hunter. Here's somebody who is dressing down large animals. 486 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 3: This is something that people with that type of skill 487 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 3: set are readily going to be able to very efficiently 488 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 3: dismember a human body. If you're sawing somebody's head off 489 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 3: and you run into the vertebrae, the knife is not 490 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 3: going to go through that vertebrae very easily. However, all 491 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 3: of a sudden you find the intervertebral space where the 492 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 3: disc is now the knife is able to channel its 493 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 3: way through. 494 00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: Pops right off. 495 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 3: Doesn't mean you have any anatomical knowledge, You just found 496 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 3: the easy way to do it. What I look at is, 497 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 3: was a somebody who manually utilizing a sharp edged instrument 498 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 3: such as a scalpel or a knife, cut the body apart? 499 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 3: Or was there different tools being used? Are they using 500 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 3: manual saws or manual tools versus powered tools? So that's 501 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 3: really how I start breaking down assessing how the body 502 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 3: was dismembered. 503 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: That makes sense when we move on to the next suspect, too, 504 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: is the one you mentioned who is Sheriff Frank Barnett. 505 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: So I rich thought very little of him. Barnett is 506 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: someone who, apparently, Bessie Ferguson was having an affair with 507 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: someone who believed that she was pregnant with his child. 508 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: On the morning that she disappeared, the last from her 509 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: family saw her. She met her mother on the corner 510 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: in Oakland, and she was dressed very nicely. Her mother 511 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: had no idea where the money came from. Thinks she 512 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: had a ring that her mother had never seen. There 513 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: was a whole slew of evidence that made her mother nervous. 514 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: She said that she had to go the doctor. She 515 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: was going to meet the sheriff, is what Heinrich said. 516 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: The mother said, in theory, either a doctor or the 517 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: sheriff were the last to see her alive. He interviewed Barnett, 518 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: and he concluded that Frank Barnett was too dumb to 519 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: pull this off and not skilled enough to even have 520 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: a partner who could pull this off. He would I 521 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: think that he thought Burnett was a little bit more 522 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: of a disorganized, not so bright, someone who would have 523 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: botched this up and wasn't someone who certainly was going 524 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: to pour lime and distribute well, you know. 525 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 3: And I think that this now comes into the assessment 526 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,719 Speaker 3: of the suspect. What is the mental aptitude of this person, 527 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 3: and then of course what is their social circles and 528 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 3: everything else, What does this person have access to. When 529 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 3: I had my brief encounter with this case five or 530 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 3: six years ago before I retired, there was information that 531 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 3: Sheriff Barnett was extremely corrupt. He was really trying to 532 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 3: maintain gambling, prostitution, all these activities within the region, even 533 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 3: though he's the sheriff, in many ways, he's connected to 534 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: the underbelly of the Bay Area, and so that connection 535 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,719 Speaker 3: now becomes huge from an investigative standpoint. 536 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: Maybe the sheriff himself. 537 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 3: Is too dumb to pull this off, but all he 538 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 3: has to do is reach out to somebody who is 539 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 3: capable of doing this, because he most certainly has friends 540 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 3: in his political world that are very capable of doing 541 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 3: this well. 542 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: And to me, it's very clear that this was not random. 543 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: This is someone she knew. I interviewed somebody about the 544 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: Colonial Parkway killer. These victims were sort of known, but 545 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: not known previously by the killer, so he wasn't scared 546 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,959 Speaker 1: of being connected because they wouldn't have been connected. This 547 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: is obviously someone who worked really hard to cover this 548 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: up because they were connected and could be traced back 549 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: to him. Does that sound right? 550 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: When I take a look at what happened to Bessie. 551 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 3: We've talked a little bit about the dismemberment, and I 552 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 3: probably should explain to the listeners my limited role in 553 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: this case is. 554 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: It was roughly I think it was twenty sixteen. 555 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 3: Alameda Coroner's office reached out to me because they found 556 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 3: Bessie's remains in their possession. There was some controversy back 557 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: in the day when her remains were found as to 558 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 3: what jurisdiction was going to take control of them, whether 559 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 3: it be Contracosta County or allow Lameda. And these are 560 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 3: two neighboring jurisdictions, Contra Costa being north of Alameda, right 561 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 3: on the eastern edge of San Francisco Bay. But this 562 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 3: death investigator who reached out to me, she reached out 563 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 3: to me because she knew that I had understanding where 564 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 3: the information on old old cases in Contracosta County was stored. 565 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 3: It wasn't for any forensic issue, it wasn't for any 566 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 3: investigative support. It was literally, I need to know what 567 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 3: Contracosta County has in records, and so that was my 568 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 3: role in this case. But she had sent me photos 569 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 3: of the remains as they were in Alameda. So right 570 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 3: now I'm looking at a photo of Bessie Ferguson's remains 571 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 3: inside this crock pot sized metal container. And basically there's 572 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 3: the skeletal remains, but there's some things that really stand 573 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 3: out to me when I take a look at the 574 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 3: bones and the dismemberment. There is some tissue, and all 575 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 3: these remains have a green hue to them. They have 576 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 3: reacted what appears to be with copper, and I don't 577 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 3: know if that is copper from this container or if 578 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 3: that is a result of the chemical processing the offender did. 579 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 3: But when I look at her skull, and unfortunately it's 580 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 3: just a view from underneath the skull, but I am 581 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 3: seeing a depressed fracture on her right side as well 582 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 3: as I'm seeing an extraordinarily clean cut through her cervical 583 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: vertebrae she was decapitated. In addition, the long bones of 584 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 3: the arms and legs have been cut, and shockingly clean cuts. 585 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 3: Now I don't have what i'd want to see where 586 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 3: I have the side lighting along the cut surface to 587 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 3: be able to determine was this a manual cut or 588 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 3: was this something done by a powered saw. 589 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: It most certainly was not done by a hunting knife. 590 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 3: The offender who cut her body up had a tool 591 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 3: that was able to cut through her major bones. 592 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: In her body with no effort whatsoever. 593 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 3: This isn't like somebody trying to take a circular saw 594 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 3: and spraying tissue and blood all over the place. This 595 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 3: appears more in line with somebody who has machinery that 596 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 3: is capable of very rapidly dismembering this body, cutting it up. 597 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 3: This is a large geographic area in which they're distributing 598 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 3: parts of her body. What puzzles me is why so 599 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: much of her body was found on Bay Farm Island. 600 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 3: Why not distribute it more than that? 601 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: Right now that you're talking about these clean cuts and everything, 602 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: I wonder if Oscar might have done something before, because 603 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: he had those bones before anybody else did. I wonder 604 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: if he had made those cuts. Is that possible. 605 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 3: I don't see any reason why he would unless I 606 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 3: don't either. The early days, bodies would be practiced on. 607 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 3: You know, if you had a theory, you could practice 608 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 3: on them. But you wouldn't do it on the actual 609 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 3: victim's body. You do it on another deceased body that 610 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 3: was in the morgue. I would not eliminate the possibility 611 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 3: that you had somebody. When I say machinery, something like 612 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 3: a press with a sharp edge that literally boam just 613 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 3: going through and cutting her apart. 614 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: How horrific. 615 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 2: If we are. 616 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 3: Now dealing with something that has a power and edge 617 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 3: to it that could create these clean cuts, you are 618 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: now dealing with somebody who has access to some sort 619 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 3: of industrial warehouse. When I think about the sheriff and 620 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 3: his associations, his corrupt associations, Yeah, if he's involved with 621 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 3: a mob like organization, they probably are fairly well versed 622 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 3: in getting rid of their enemies, and this may be 623 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 3: a process that they routinely employed, and so they had 624 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 3: the resources in order to do it. And Bessie stepped 625 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 3: into the wrong group of people. Whether it was an 626 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 3: extortion plot on the sheriff because you know she's claiming 627 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 3: he you know, he fathered her child, right, she pissed 628 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 3: somebody else off, That is one possibility. The sheriff had resources, 629 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 3: He had other people that likely would be able to 630 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 3: do what I am seeing done to Bessie. 631 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: Two interesting things. One, if you look at Heinrich's notes 632 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: and who he sends his memo to the district attorney 633 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: at the time in California was Earl Warren, who later 634 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: became the Governor of California and then of course a 635 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: US Supreme Court Chief Justice. So I was startled when 636 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: I saw this letter to Earl Warren. I was again, 637 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: is that the same? Yes, that's the same. One last 638 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: piece of information as we know Heinrich had thought this 639 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: was definitely done by somebody who knew what they were doing, 640 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: a medical professional, someone used to working with patients. Really, 641 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: I think he was thinking, honestly, Paul, someone not squeamish. 642 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: So on his list where she had some family members 643 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 1: who were doctors and dentists, so she was having affairs 644 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: with doctors and dentists. There was one person that no 645 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: one knows about. It was never in the newspapers. It 646 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: was only buried in his notes. The only person that 647 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: he really doesn't clearly identify a man named C. C. 648 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: Lee Lee, who was a man from China who was 649 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: a dentist who lived across the street from Bessie's family, 650 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: where she was often. His shredded business card was found 651 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: in Bessie's bag, and he examined her clothing which was 652 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: found at the scene, and there was dental molding on it. 653 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: So what you would use, I guess in nineteen twenty 654 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: five to put a crown on perhaps, and there were 655 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: tool marks on her crown. He says to Earl Warren, 656 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this guy one hundred percent did it. 657 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: In less you fully investigate C. Seelee, you will not 658 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: to be confident in whoever you sign off on, because 659 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: the information I have from her family is he was 660 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: fixated on her. He lived right across the street, her 661 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: family rented a garage from him. His wife visited with 662 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 1: Bessie often, so this was at the top of his list. 663 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: He could never prove it, but this seemed a likely suspect. 664 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: What do you think about that? 665 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 2: That is interesting? 666 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 3: And now this is where we move away from this 667 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 3: is solely an elimination homicide to where if you have 668 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 3: somebody who is stalking Bessie, he lives nearby the silence 669 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 3: of the labs. You covet what you see, right? Is 670 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 3: this that type of homicide? And what we don't know 671 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 3: with the condition of Bessie's body is what was done 672 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 3: to her prior to the dismemberment. 673 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 2: All sorts of things could have been done to her. 674 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 3: This could have been a sexually motivated homicide. 675 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 2: We have no idea. 676 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,439 Speaker 3: By the time her body was found, any of that 677 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 3: type of interaction was long gone. 678 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: I would not eliminate that as a possibility. 679 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: You know, I think if we're wrapping this up, my 680 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: instinct is probably your instinct, which is the person who 681 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: last saw her besides a doctor, right, so there was 682 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: a little bit of suspicion that maybe this was a 683 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: botched abortion, and the doctor freaked out and covered it. 684 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: Really freaked out, Yeah, really freaked out. 685 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: In her apartment, he found sanitary napkins. It doesn't seem 686 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: like she was really pregnant by any means at the time, 687 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: so he crossed that off pretty quickly. She has told 688 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: her mother she's going to see this. Sheriff didn't have 689 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 1: enough evidence. He doesn't have all of the DNA evidence, 690 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: he doesn't have all of the resources that we have today, 691 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: cell phone records. I mean, there's a whole list of 692 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: things that he could have done to eliminate Barnett, or 693 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: include Barnett at least exclude Barnett as a suspect that 694 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: he didn't have access to. So I think in some 695 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: ways they're sort of grasping at straws, even though I 696 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: don't think that that he thought that at the time. 697 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 2: Victimology is huge. 698 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 3: We know Bessie had a history of extorting men with 699 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 3: the ruse. They fathered a child, and she reportedly that 700 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 3: last night had said I'm going out on a date 701 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 3: with the sheriff that night and her mother said, don't 702 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 3: do it. He's dirty, and she was like, oh, don't worry, mom, 703 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 3: he'll pay like the others. Looking at how she's dismembered, 704 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 3: how efficiently she's been dismembered, the application of the chemicals, 705 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 3: the body dispersal across a broad area within the eastern 706 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 3: part of the Bay Area. That's where I would most 707 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 3: certainly focus my primary thrust with the investigation. 708 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: I agree. And in this note that Oscar writes to 709 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 1: Earl Warren, he says that her mother says Barnett wanted 710 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: her to go to the doctor for the pregnancy, Bessie 711 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: refused to go, and the mother claims that Bessie was 712 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: thoroughly disgusted with him. Sheriff Barnett was married. Oscar took 713 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 1: some soil samples from Barnett's home and the organic matter 714 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,720 Speaker 1: didn't match the sand that he found at the crime scene. Again, 715 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: this doesn't exclude him, No, it doesn't include him, but 716 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: it certainly doesn't exclude him from this. So, just to 717 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: tie this case up, no one is arrested. Share Bournette 718 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: loses his Spottish sheriff, and moving forward two years later, 719 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: Oscar finds himself back in El Cerrito, very very very 720 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: close to where the scalp in the ear are found. 721 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: There is a shallow grave filled with bones that have 722 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: been burned and buried, and he is having some deje vous. 723 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: This is also an unsolved case, but it left him 724 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: wondering forever whether or not he let a serial killer 725 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: get away. 726 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 3: Sure, whoever dismembered Bessie may be somebody who had killed 727 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 3: before and killed after, but may not be your fantasy 728 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 3: motivated predator, but may be more somebody that is willing 729 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 3: to kill to cover up illegal activities, and you do 730 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 3: your typical mafia hit man as an example, very different 731 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 3: type of psychology. Is that person cereal? Yes, but it's 732 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 3: a different type of serial killer. 733 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: I think that whoever did kill Bessie Ferguson to Oscar 734 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: was your golden State killer until he was caught. I 735 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: think this was the case for him. This was the 736 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: case that haunted him. 737 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and to go to your grave without an answer, 738 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 3: you know, I absolutely empathize with how he was feeling 739 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 3: about that. 740 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked. 741 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 3: Words, was Jennifer killed because she's trans Was Jennifer killed 742 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:28,720 Speaker 3: because she's poor? 743 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 2: It was Jennifer killed because she's Filipino. 744 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: I believe it's all three of these things. If you 745 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 1: love historical true crime, please check out my books American 746 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: Sherlock and Death. In the year this has been an 747 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis Emirosi is our producer, 748 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: Andrew Epan is our sound designer. Ellen Middleton is a 749 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: researcher for us. Curtis Heath does the composition, Nick Toga 750 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink designed the website. The 751 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,760 Speaker 1: executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. 752 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 753 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you are 754 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to 755 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: midroll dot com slash ads, and if you know of 756 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: a historical true crime story that could use some attention 757 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 758 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe and leave us 759 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get 760 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:35,879 Speaker 1: your podcasts.