WEBVTT - From the Vault: Melt With Me 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.680 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. This is 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.479 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and today's Vault episode 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.800 is going to be called Melt with Me. This one 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:20.520 originally published November five. It's all about melting. Yeah, it's uh, 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:24.040 you know, we get into you know, phase transition, and 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.080 we talk a little bit about movies that feature people melting. 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:29.560 Is I recall this one kind of gets There's some 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:31.280 science in here, for sure, but it's also kind of 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:36.280 a free form uh you know, philosophical uh, pondering of 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.240 melting people and what they mean. Why do we keep 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.320 coming back to this idea of melting and is it good? 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.519 Is it bad? Is it both? We'll let you decide. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of My 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:59.640 Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.040 Mine name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.840 Halloween Hangover Week continues. Rob today, I think you wanted 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.880 to talk a little bit about melting. Yeah. So basically 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.199 the reason for this episode is that we are publishing 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.760 this the first week of November, but we were recording 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.679 at the last week of October, so we didn't want 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:25.960 to work on any non Halloween material the week of Halloween. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.440 Uh So Halloween on the show is lasting an extra week. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.400 Uh So we're going to get into some topics here 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:35.520 that are a little bit horror themed in places, but 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.039 also I think go beyond horror and maybe just get 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:43.039 into a study of a very particular symbol or metaphor 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.880 in the human experience and a discussion of what it means. 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.120 You know, one of the first movies we talked about 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:51.120 in October this year, I think it was the first 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:55.600 one was was the House of Wax movie starring Vincent Price. 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.760 So we did a whole episode about wax horror. And 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.279 one of the things that you see time and again 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:05.240 in these wax murder movies is there's the scene where 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.200 the Palace of Wax burns down and you watch all 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:12.200 of the wax figures melting. Uh It's got to happen 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.120 in every one of these stories, and there's clearly some 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.360 kind of psychological thing going on where the imagery they're 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.079 is supposed to resemble human beings actually melting, and that's 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.120 what the fascination is in. But another thing about it 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.080 that just recently struck me as a reason to have 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.080 those wax figure melting scenes is it's almost like a 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:36.440 way of sneaking in gore extra gore around the sensors. 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.160 Like if you couldn't get a melting human past you know, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.440 the m P A A or whatever, you probably can 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.760 get some melting humanoid wax figures. Yeah. I wonder, like 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:52.680 how much violence and gore involving a clear um mannequin 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:57.239 or wax figure, you know, just a pure effigy could 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.959 you get away with? Uh? I mean to a certain extent. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.120 You see that with other things, right, Like you hear 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.800 about movies where they're like, oh, yeah, we decided that 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.720 the monster or the villain should have green blood because 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.040 then we can use as much as we want. But 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:11.919 if it were red, we couldn't show it. That sort 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.320 of thing. So but yeah, I think, you know, it 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:15.680 kind of it ties back to a lot of the 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.280 themes that we talked about in the wax episode, you know, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.920 like what happens when we watch violence involving an effigy 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.800 or some sort of sacrament involving an effigy. Uh, you know, 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.520 we we can't help but associate then those movements violent 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.760 or otherwise with the person that it is resembling or 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.920 like just a human in general. Uh. And it's it's 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.000 fitting that we kicked off our Halloween season this year 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.400 with Wax and we're going to close it out with 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.280 the Melt. Now, there are a couple of ways you 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.440 could look at this. One I think is just there 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.160 is a good melting scene in a movie, such as 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.680 in Raiders of the Lost Arc has a famous classic 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.320 Nazi melting scene. But then on the other end of 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.400 the spectrum, you can you can go, you can really 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:03.000 embrace it to the the nth degree and go full 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.960 melt movie, which is a sort of sub genre of 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.360 its own, of like horror, gore, gross out films that 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.080 are all just about people melting. Well. It's it's kind 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.600 of the difference between a like a blockbuster like Raiders, 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.039 and a smaller picture or a B picture, right like 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.480 Raiders is a film that does a lot of things 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.880 exceedingly well, and one of them is the use of 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.679 a practical special effect to make it look like someone's melting. 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:31.440 But a lot of times with these b with a 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.039 B film, you know you're lucky if you get one 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.719 thing that's done really well, and sometimes like that is 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.160 the that is the push with the film, like that 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.520 is the energy of the film, Like, look, we can 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.320 do a really good melting scene. Let's build a movie 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:46.680 around our ability to do this, or at least our 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:48.919 desire to do this. You know. Well, it's kind of 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:50.960 like how a B movie can maybe have a budget 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.040 for one star, so you can just get Vincent Price 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:55.919 or something, and then you try to build it around 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.040 that star. Or maybe if you just have a budget 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:01.320 for a really good makeup perfects artists, then you build 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.000 the whole film around that. Yeah, exactly, and and in 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.320 many cases that that can be enough. Um. I also 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.920 think it's certainly a case, especially with some of these 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.240 earlier pictures we're talking about, where they they strike a 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.680 chord and they they for Like, there's something about the 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.640 melting human that resonates strongly with us and makes us 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:22.800 want to go back and re examine it. Maybe not 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.040 so deeply certainly with some of these films, but we 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:29.200 have to come back for more. There's just something intriguing 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.640 about about the melting human. And I think a lot 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.479 of it does go back to wax effigies and some 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.440 of the things we discussed in that past episode. But 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.200 in terms of just the cinnamon that we grow up 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.880 on for my own part, and I feel like other 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.800 people probably share this cinematic legacy as well. I think 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.240 of Raiders of course from eighty one, which we just 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:49.760 just discussed. But the other big one, of course is 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.000 The Wizard of Oz, which is not the goryous scene ever, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.000 but a very memorable scene often seen at a young 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.159 age for the first time, in which the wicked Witch 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.239 of the West is splashed with water and melts away 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.760 into like smoking nothingness. The feeling of that scene is 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.919 very much defined by the fact that it's water that 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:13.160 does it. If it had been sulfuric acid or something 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.960 that supposedly melts her, that scene would be more horrific, 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.600 But the fact that she's melted by water gives it 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.240 a fairy tale kind of quality that actually makes it 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:27.440 less body horrific, less gruesome, and more magical and and 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.520 like something that would happen in a grim's fairy tale. Yeah, yeah, exactly, 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:33.720 something that the purity of water is the only thing 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.760 you could destroy such a like a foul creature, right though, 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.080 that would be a hilarious ending to the movie where 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:40.840 they find out the secret is you've got to throw 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:45.120 sulfuric acid on the witch. Alright, well, we're gonna we're 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:49.600 gonna get more into the contemplative part of this podcast 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.760 in a bit, but we need to go ahead and 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.880 talk about a few other melt movies before we move forward, 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.640 just to establish the firm ground upon which we're going 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.480 to build everything else. And I think one of the 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.279 one of the big ones is all I don't know, 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:05.920 maybe for some of you have never heard of it, 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.360 but a big one for me is seven The Incredible 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.440 Melting Man. Then the plot here is, uh, it was 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.560 not original to this picture. There have been some There's 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.680 been at least one other film, probably more before it 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.000 that explored a similar contemplation, and that is, Uh, you 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.360 have an astronaut goes into space, is exposed to cosmic radiation, 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.520 and he brings this home. In this case, the radiation 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.600 has caused him to melt, and he can slow down 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.440 this melting by eating human flesh, and he also has 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.520 radioactive powers. If I'm remembering correctly, Uh, seems kind of 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.120 similar to the plot of Monster A Go Go, if 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:45.040 I recall correct Yeah, And I think there's um, there's 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.480 a there's a move with Frankenstein in the title that 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.720 has a similar element, like like clearly meets the space monster. 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:52.800 Is that I think it had a similar plot. Yeah, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.200 and I think there are more films because obviously you 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:57.560 you're dealing with the this this one is perhaps the 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.560 kind of an homage to the radioactive cinema of the 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.240 previous decades. And like this was on everybody's mind in 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.520 the post war period in the in the shadow of 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.440 the Mushroom Cloud, you know, this was these were the 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:11.200 kinds of of of myths we kept stirring up. Now, 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.800 many of you probably know this film because it was 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.440 featured on Mystery Science Theater three thousand back in the day. 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:18.760 And the other thing that's really key about it is 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.400 that the legendary Rick Baker did effects on it, and 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:26.080 the effects are quite terrifying. Of these this like melting Man. 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.600 It's just kind of like perpetually melting despite throughout the film. 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.840 Um and uh, maybe in part because of the effectiveness 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.960 of those effects. This this is what started out as 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:42.880 an intended horror parody became a straight horror film. Like 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:47.080 the producers apparently took comedic scenes out of the picture 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.079 in order to emphasize the horror. Uh. That's something about 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.280 the melting man, especially when depicted convincingly through you know, 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.720 someone's worth like Rick Baker's, that you just can't ignore. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:00.720 Movies don't usually go that way during direction. It's much 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:02.920 more common for them to go the other way, where 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.240 you embrace comedy and add more comedy in Yeah, it's 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.000 like this looks this look looks dumb. Let's have it 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:09.920 up a little bit. Let's pretend like we meant to 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:14.680 do this. Uh. An interesting fact about the melt effects 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.120 in this film. Um, the Rick big Baker films apparently 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.920 inspired uh, the effects in RoboCop. You know, there's an 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.360 infamous scene in RoboCop where one of the hinchmen gets 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:30.800 toxic waste of splattered all over them and they started melting. Yeah, 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.080 a scene that really shook me when I saw it 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:37.079 way too early in my life. Children should not watch RoboCop. No, 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.680 not at all. So in these two previous examples, we 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:44.560 mentioned the melt almost being in parody, uh, or you know, 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.600 in the case of RoboCop playing into sort of an 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.080 ultra violent satire of American culture. But there are more 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:54.000 comedic examples to consider as well. One of them I 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.600 believe you've seen this, and I think we've talked about 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.880 this and before Joe, but Street Trash, it's been a 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.360 long time since I saw but my my friend Ben 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:03.640 showed it to me many many years ago, and it 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:10.160 is that is a absolutely grotesque film of the highest order. Yeah, 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:11.880 it is a it's a I guess it's supposed to 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.480 be a black comedy. Uh, you know, it's filled with gallows, humor, 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.840 um and just just atrocities. It's just an atrocious film 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.679 you should not watch unless you were into atrocious nineteen 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:27.679 eight cinema, even less for children than RoboCop. Yeah, it's uh, 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:33.439 it is just wall to wall humans melting and disgusting nastiness. Yeah. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.360 But the the the key melt and it has a 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.960 fabulous melt scene in It involves this this plot element 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.120 where there's this cheap liquor that's going around. I think 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.640 it's called like Tina fly Viper. Yeah. They find it 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.120 in the basement of a liquor store and start selling 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.599 it and it makes people melt. Yeah. Like there's a 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:53.000 scene where a like a homeless individual or a hobo 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.400 or or something, um it gets a bottle of this 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:59.200 starts drinking and then starts melting whilst sitting on a 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:03.400 like a a discarded toilet out in a junk field, 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.680 and he melts into the toilet and then goes down 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:08.880 the toilet bowl. But they do it in a way 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.640 where it's like, it's not like a purely gory melt 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.520 like it has. It's kind of a technicolor melt, so 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.760 it's not actually as bloody or gross as I'm making 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:22.400 it sound. It's more surreal and comic. Bookie, Well, it 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.800 is gross, but as he melts into the toilet, he's 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.880 turning Lisa Frank colors, so he's like blue and green 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:32.520 and pink as he melts. Now, another movie that has, uh, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:36.800 if not absolute melting, something very much like melting troll 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:42.440 To from Ah Yes where uh So, I watched troll 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:46.440 To probably at least fifty times when I was in college. 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.080 But it's weird because now it's been a while since 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:50.800 I've seen it. We're we're about to rewatch it for 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:54.520 Weird House Cinema. But what I recall is there's like 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.160 nilbog milk in this town full of goblins, and when 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.440 people drink it or eat the food they're or whatever, 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.360 it is they get poisoned and then their bodies are 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.040 reduced to this kind of green sap as they slowly 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.360 turned into plants and green jello, and they become food 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:15.760 for vegetarian goblins pretty much. Yeah. So if that sounds intriguing, Uh, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.840 pay attention to our feed. We'll come back and discuss 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.679 it in in full. Into a little bit. Another melt movie, 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.760 this one from the eighties is the Stuff. This one 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:31.559 is by the Master Larry Cohen, starring Saturday Night Live's 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.240 Garrett Morris. And this is one I haven't actually seen, 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:36.320 but I have seen the key melting scene in it, 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:40.440 in which Garrett Morris kind of mutate slash slash melts 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.320 into a big blob of killer cool whip. If I recall, 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.480 the real moral of the stuff is that you need 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.960 a strong f DA with good inspection provisions and regulations 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.080 on consumer goods, because I think it's like a packaged 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.440 yogurt product or something like that that ends up turning 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:59.480 people into into liquid and that Let's see, what are 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.360 some other melt films that come to mind? Um, or 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.280 at least scenes that have films that have good melt 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.560 scenes in them. Uh, these are all played for straight horror. 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.400 But there's the Devil's Rain, that's where the rain melts 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:16.520 the Satanist. There's some melting in the Evil Dead. Obviously, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:21.160 the Gremlins movies have some fabulous melting. Warlock has a 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:25.560 melt scene. As I recall, The Blob is actually a 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.080 wonderful melt film, and that not only is the Blob 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.040 itself very amorphous and melty, but it's it's always just 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.599 any time it gets a person, it starts melting and 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:39.600 it starts dissolving them, digesting them, uh, in real grotesque time. Yeah, 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.200 the Blob, I think is a is an underrated type 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:47.080 of horror because something you know, if we were like 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:51.280 smaller types of animals, there could be real blob type 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.560 horror to worry about in the real world. I don't 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.160 think there are any major predators that would, uh, that 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.960 would prey on a human sized organism by digesting it 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.839 externally with enzymes. But that happens all the time to 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.840 you know, smaller types of creatures in the ocean or 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.959 in the like insect world. I mean basically, a lot 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.640 of what a spider does to you if it catches 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.240 you is it will sort of spit enzymes into you 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.920 that dissolve your inner body parts, melt them and turn 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.480 them into a soup that the spider can suck out 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.400 of you. Do you remember the of I know the 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.280 answer to this. I know you remember these guys. But 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.960 the winged creatures and Beastmaster. Yes, they do a form 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.800 of external digestion on the creatures they catch. They like 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.400 wrap them in their big wings and then they just 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.640 like turned to jelly and then presumably they eat at 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.280 least some of the jelly. Nice um. Other films, let's see, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:47.360 take more of a weird sci fi approach to melting. 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.440 A time cop which we've we've mentioned on the show before, 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.720 features a great melt seat when a character comes into 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.160 physical contact with their past self. Uh, they melt away 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.440 into nothingness together. I'm not sure exactly c g I 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:02.840 melt scene. Yeah, it's the c g I melt scene, 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.200 which doesn't hold up as well today, but at the 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.760 time was was pretty crazy. As I recall all, c 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.800 G I seemed like that in the nineties. You remember 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:13.320 when we were all saying how good the c G 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:18.440 I and Mortal Kombat the motion picture was. What's the 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.000 other films that come to mind? Toxic Avenger has some 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:26.280 melting in it. Um Society by Brian Jasna is another 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.240 sort of video nasty that has a certain amount of 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:34.400 orgiastic melting between characters, pet characters melting into each other, etcetera. 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.320 There's a really spectacular melting scene in Fright Night where 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.520 the vampire is familiar in that movie. So the vampires 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.800 Chris Sourrandon, but he's got this apparently human helper named Billy. 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.280 Uh And this is I don't know, there's something in 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.440 a lot of vampire movies have as like the vampire 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.120 can't go out in the daytime, so he's got a 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.360 helper who goes out and does stuff with him or 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.360 does to forum during the day. For example, in Um 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.680 in Salem's Lot, this is the characters straight Acre, who's 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.400 played by uh oh, what's his name, James Mason. There's 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.240 just wonderful in the role, you know, back Priest, back Shaman. 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.720 But but in this movie, the James Mason role is 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.280 I can't remember the actor's name who plays him, but 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.240 the character's name is Billy. And later in the film, 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.920 when the when the characters start fighting Billy, I think 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.000 they shoot him with a revolver, and they discover he's 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.720 not quite human at all actually, or if he is human, 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.200 he's cursed in some kind of way, because after he 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.480 has killed, he melts into a green puddle of bones 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.480 and goo. Real quick, is it? Roddy McDowell, No, No, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.080 Roddy McDowell plays the Peter Cushing character in the movie. 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:42.000 He plays an actor who regularly plays Van Helsing type 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.680 roles in films within the film. I just looked him up. 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.080 The actor's name is Jonathan Stark. Looks like he's also 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.920 in house to the second story and in an episode 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.200 of Tales from the Crypt. Maybe we'll have to come 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.960 back to that another time. Now. Another film that some 0:16:58.040 --> 0:16:59.880 of you might be thinking of that involves like nell 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.680 being external digestion, etcetera, is, of course David Cronenberg's The Fly, 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.320 which we we recently did or sometime earlier this year 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.480 we did an episode on particularly we we discussed the 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.760 themes of the plasma pool uh in that picture, because 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.960 I I think David Cronenberg's film here is worth focusing on, 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:23.000 because certainly there's a lot of meltish body heart that's 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:27.639 going on in that film. Characters basically rotting and falling apart, etcetera. 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:33.480 But the Brundle character brings up this idea of the 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.199 plasma pool is this thing to to dive into and 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:40.960 be reborn out off which itself is. I think nicely 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.000 represents the other side of of the coin with our 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:49.400 idea of melting, uh, because it brings with it again 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.719 the idea of rebirth. And we see a version of 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:54.760 this in the natural world as well. It's not all 0:17:54.880 --> 0:18:00.000 just amba's digesting things. We also see um this jellification 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.679 and this this melting and then rebirth in metamorphosis. So 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.280 we often don't realize this, But but what a caterpillar 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:12.359 does inside a chrystalis coccoon is essentially a full body melt. 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:17.320 It digests itself, It releases enzymes that dissolve almost all 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:21.960 of its tissues, reducing itself to an oozing goop. Only 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:26.520 the imaginal discs survived this process, and these develop into 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.520 the adult body parts of the mature butterfly or moth 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:34.320 that ultimately emerges. So again, the larval form must melt 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.440 before it becomes an adult. It must be granted within 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.920 the protective frame of the crystalis or cocoon it must 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:45.119 give up all of its hard exteriors, It must liquefy, 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.920 undergo a self digestion, become an ouze, and then that 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.960 ouze becomes the butterfly. It is weird to think about, 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.040 if you focus on it for a second, that across 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.800 every generation of humans, the body plan has to return 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.840 to a mass of undifferentiated cells that you know, you 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.800 you basically turn into a little lump of google. And then, 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.119 of course, can the body can be reconstituted based on 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.600 on recombined DNA from the parents. But but yeah, for 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.199 a while, this line of organisms coming down the ages, 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.760 ever since the beginning of life on Earth, has always 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.320 been reduced back to a kind of primordial ooze with 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.400 each generation, every time it changes over. Yeah, I wonder if, 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:33.800 especially as we get more into you know that's certainly 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:38.560 the modern age and uh more scientifically literate, um, you know, public, 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.560 I wonder if that plays into our appreciation of the melt, 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.399 at least on a subconscious level. This idea that we 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.800 are all essentially creamy newgat and therefore to see us 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.960 reduced to creamy newgat, uh, you know, fills this with 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.720 a certain wonder or horror or just sort of you know, 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.480 kind of spiritual um awe. Yeah, our genetic essence at 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:00.760 least is contained in the new it, and we could 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.439 be rebuilt from the newgat. By the way, on the 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:07.120 topic of imaginal self, I once wrote an article about 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:11.680 gremlins for How Stuff Works in which I tried to 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.480 make scientific sense of the gremlins biology and the gremlin 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:20.000 magua relationship, which is was a challenge to do, but 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.960 I felt like the closest we could come to describing 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.000 some of the things that happened, like the the water 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:32.399 triggering um a sexual butting or the or specifically the 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.679 idea of sunlight melting that might be linked to some 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:41.200 sort of biological impulse to self digest within the cocoon 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.240 that has then triggered outside of the cocoon. Uh. In 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.080 the case of light exposed magua and gremlins, you should 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:50.439 have been present at that scene depicted in the Key 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:54.960 and Peel skit where they're a lot of gremlins too. Yes, yes, yeah, 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.520 that's all right. We're gonna take a quick break, but 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:04.560 we'll be right back. Thank alright, we're back. Well, So, 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:08.479 with regard to organisms actually melting, you know sort of 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.159 like turning into a liquid or a goo. Uh. There 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.320 was something I briefly wanted to touch on, and it's 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.240 kind of parallel to some things we've talked about on 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.440 the show in the past. For example, when we did 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:24.080 an episode I think it was last year about pressure 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.639 about where we talked about and say, you know organisms 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:30.920 that thrive under high pressure deep in the ocean. One 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.000 of the things we talked about is that sometimes when 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.200 fish from deep waters are brought up to the surface, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:40.760 they can undergo a kind of traumatic body response to 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.880 the lower pressures that they're exposed to on the surface. 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:46.879 So there are for example, types of rock fish or 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.959 other fish that can uh that can suffer eversions of 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:55.600 their digestive systems as their swim bladders expand with lower 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:57.359 pressure when they're brought up to the surface. So it 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:01.240 can actually actually like push their stumb out through their mouth, 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.800 which is really disgusting, don't knock it. Some organisms do 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.439 that as part of their they're just natural behavior. There 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:11.040 are certain sharks that do that too, if if memory 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.320 serves their sharks that that do that as a way 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:17.120 of emptying their their stomach if need be. It's called 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:19.920 stomach aversion. Well, for these fish. It is not part 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.840 of the plan. It's not voluntary. No, it happens because 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:24.720 like as they get as they rise up, the lower 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:27.320 pressure makes their swim the gas in their swim bladder 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.000 naturally expand. It pushes everything else out of the way, 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:32.520 and their guts get like pushed out through their mouth, 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.520 which is yeah, not good to happen to them. Uh. 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.520 And there are similar things that can happen, though not 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:41.439 not quite as stomach aversion, a little bit more melty 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:44.200 that happened to other organisms. The example I was looking 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:47.200 at was a type of fish that is known as 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:49.639 the snail fish, and there are a number of different 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:53.520 types of snail fish. This is a it's it's a 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:58.840 genus known as the liparidy and liparity often dwell in 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:03.240 very deep, very cold waters, especially in ocean trenches. And 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:06.359 so I was reading a New York Times article about 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:10.479 a discovery of several new types of snail fish in uh. 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:13.679 The article is by verynic Greenwood, and it was about 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.399 discoveries of three new types of snail fish of the 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:19.399 Atacama Trench, which is off the coast of Chile in 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:23.400 the southeastern Pacific Ocean. And this trench gets very deep. 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.560 It's almost five miles deep and down in the dark. 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.639 There some researchers, I think some of them more associated 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:33.359 with Newcastle University, they discovered these three new varieties of 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:37.000 snail fish. But they were describing the difficulty in bringing 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:39.600 these fish up to the surface because the fish are 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:43.919 adapted to these extremely deep waters. And so they were 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:49.280 speaking with a researcher named Thomas Linley who's with Newcastle University, 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:53.520 who says that their tissue is almost entirely gel quote. 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:57.000 They are really supported by the water around them, so 0:23:57.040 --> 0:23:59.840 they do have some hard body parts. They have teeth, 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.880 I've read most species of snail fish have these kind 0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:07.000 of blunt, little, uh cuppy kind of teeth, and then 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:09.840 they've got tiny bones, according to this article, especially in 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.320 the inner ear, and these are really the main hard 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.200 parts of their bodies. So if you grab some of 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:18.439 these snail fish and then you try to bring them 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:22.200 up to the surface to examine them, uh, it all 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:25.440 just goes to hell because when they're no longer confined 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:28.480 by the hydrostatic pressure of the deep water and the 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:32.720 extremely low temperatures of this deep ocean trench, they essentially 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:37.760 just melt when they get to the surface, quoting Thomas Linley, 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:42.000 they fall apart at like the molecular level. It's like 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:45.119 a ghost thing that's disappearing in front of your eyes. 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:48.879 And you might think, well, why why would a fish 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:51.480 be that fragile, you know, wouldn't need to have a 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:54.480 little bit more structural integrity to survive. But no, it's 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:58.080 because it's adapted to these extreme conditions that are present 0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:01.440 only in this deep ocean trench where it lives. Uh, 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:04.959 Greenwood writes, quote this may be because shallow water snailfish 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:09.200 gain adaptations that let them thrive in the deepest ocean 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:12.000 where they have plenty of prey, so there's less competition 0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:15.040 down there because less stuff can survive there quote. But 0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:19.560 then because of these physiological changes, they find themselves unable 0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:22.480 to rise to higher levels to leave and thus are 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:25.639 never seen by humans. So at the deepest parts of 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:28.600 the ocean and these trenches, you get these islands of 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.600 adapted organisms, including these types of snail fish, that have 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:36.080 to make major changes to their bodies through evolution in 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:38.720 order to survive down there. But then once they make 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:40.840 those changes, they're kind of stuck right there, not going 0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:44.240 to migrate out of these deep water trenches once they're there, 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:47.200 because now they have bodies that can't survive at the 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:51.080 lower pressures and higher temperatures of more shallow water. It's 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:56.080 like becoming a professional podcaster, you realize sound goodness. Yeah, 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:59.720 I don't know if I can handle um, different depths. Um, 0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:01.720 I'm may be stuck down here. Yeah, you're in the 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:04.800 like the challenger deep of career paths where you're I 0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:08.960 specialize in talking about science and horror movies. Yeah. People, 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:12.280 it's a really useful skill, you know. It's this is 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:14.280 actually ties in with a lot of stuff we're talking about, 0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:16.840 because even in this we're joking about the fear of 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:21.919 change and and perhaps clinging to stability um and and 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:23.840 in the case of this, this creature, this is a 0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:28.320 creature that thrives in this this this narrow environment that 0:26:28.520 --> 0:26:31.240 is pretty stable, but it cannot handle change at all. 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:34.720 Uh and melting in our fear of melting, our desire 0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:36.920 to melt, etcetera. A lot of this does does seem 0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:40.760 to center around how we deal with change. And I 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:42.480 think one thing to keep in mind is that melting. 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:45.040 We've certainly touched on a lot of horrifying examples. But 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:48.720 melting doesn't have to be bad. Just look to our language, um, 0:26:48.800 --> 0:26:51.280 you know, because we have we have some really positive 0:26:51.320 --> 0:26:54.679 ideas and metaphors that relate to melting at time, like 0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:58.520 the idea of melting with joy or seeing something or 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:03.679 experiencing something that quote just makes you melt. Um, there's uh, 0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:06.800 I'm sure, especially if you if you were someone you 0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:11.600 know uh enjoys like metal or dub step music or 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:13.480 some other kind of genre that has kind of a 0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:19.960 I don't know, an atmosphere of intensity to it. Sometimes 0:27:19.960 --> 0:27:23.480 you'll say loudness, love of loudness. You'll hear about how 0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:26.679 it is it is face melting right, Uh, And and 0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:30.280 that and that is largely depicted as being a positive thing. Yeah. 0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:32.439 One of my favorite musicians is Neil Young, and I 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:36.040 remember an interview many years ago where Conan O'Brien was 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:39.640 interviewing him and he he told him, I watched you 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:42.919 at some concert play a rendition of rocking in the 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:46.879 free world that made my eyes melt. It's clearly a compliment. 0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:49.359 Did he mean crying? Was he crying? No? No, I 0:27:49.440 --> 0:27:51.600 think he just meant like it was so powerful it 0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:55.480 like destroyed my body, but he meant it as a compliment. Okay, 0:27:55.520 --> 0:28:00.080 because yeah, because I think sometimes crying plays into how 0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:03.920 we're loosely thinking about melting. But it doesn't seem to 0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:07.000 be a case where we're using it as like a 0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:10.280 euphemism for for crying, you know, or trying to sort 0:28:10.320 --> 0:28:12.080 of cover up the fact that we're crying, like trying 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:15.000 to be like hyper masculine about crying. That doesn't seem 0:28:15.080 --> 0:28:17.720 to be the way that people use melt. No, But 0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:20.520 I think there's a very interesting thing that if you 0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:24.040 look at movie scenes where characters are very first beginning 0:28:24.040 --> 0:28:26.879 to melt, so the melt scene is happening very often, 0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:28.880 a place for it to start is with some kind 0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:32.080 of piece, like a drop of liquid rolling down the face, 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:36.680 almost like a tear drop does. Is interesting. I guess 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:39.280 it does kind of look like, like, you know, just 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:42.280 water going down the face. You could sort of interpret 0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:45.440 it as like flesh or the surface of flesh melting. 0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:48.680 But that's a good point. So I was looking around 0:28:48.680 --> 0:28:51.040 to see if anybody, you know, done any you know, 0:28:52.240 --> 0:28:56.400 serious contemplation on this idea of of of melting, of 0:28:56.520 --> 0:28:58.840 you know, there being a fear of melting or desire 0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:02.120 to melt um because, as we've discussed on the show before, 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:06.880 you do see psychological delusions such as that of feeling 0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:09.600 that your body as is as brittle as glass and 0:29:09.640 --> 0:29:14.160 may shatter, So why not melting as well? Yeah, there 0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:18.480 are all kinds of uh, psychological conditions that can disrupt 0:29:18.680 --> 0:29:23.120 various features of the body schema, or can disrupt types 0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:26.280 of appropriate reception where you since, where your body is, 0:29:26.320 --> 0:29:29.480 what it feels like, what's happening to it. Yeah, So 0:29:29.640 --> 0:29:33.000 I did not find anything. If anyone out there has 0:29:33.080 --> 0:29:35.360 run across it, I am happy to be corrected, but 0:29:35.400 --> 0:29:38.400 I'm also I'm not I'm not gonna say I'm disappointed 0:29:38.840 --> 0:29:41.640 that people are not dealing with a psychological delusion that 0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:45.000 their bodies are melting, like I'm I'm happy that people 0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:48.080 are spared that at least. Uh. But I did come 0:29:48.120 --> 0:29:53.959 across studies in Nondeterministic Psychology by James L. Fausage. Uh. 0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:58.880 This is the National Institute of Psychotherapies in ninety and 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:03.160 in it, the author discusses psychotherapy approaches that make use 0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:08.480 of transformative melting metaphors during the waking state of consciousness, 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:11.920 which I found quite interesting. So this is not. You know, 0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:15.280 this is very much about like using various mental images 0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:17.800 as a way of connecting with the patient and psychotherapy, 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:19.920 but it touches on some of the things we're talking 0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:25.320 about here. So in this paper, Fassage Minsent mentions the 0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:29.000 melting of a shield with one's warmth. So that's like 0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:32.000 there's a shield between you and another person or another thing, 0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:35.040 and your warmth can be the thing that melts the shield, 0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:38.840 so you're like a an instrument of melting. And then 0:30:38.880 --> 0:30:41.520 there's quote the fear of melting, of letting go and 0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:45.920 becoming vulnerable without adequate defenses, which I think is is 0:30:46.040 --> 0:30:49.200 very key. And then there's the fear of melting completely 0:30:49.480 --> 0:30:52.040 and there being nothing left of oneself, this kind of 0:30:52.040 --> 0:30:55.160 I guess, going back to the candle metaphor, but also 0:30:55.600 --> 0:30:57.280 reminding me a bit of the wicked Witch of the 0:30:57.320 --> 0:30:59.880 West as well, you know, because she basically melts awaited nothing. 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:02.320 It's just left. All this left is just the clothing 0:31:02.320 --> 0:31:05.280 that she was wearing. I'd say, in psychological terms, the 0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:08.640 one that I here emerged most naturally from people is 0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:12.520 the middle one about the melting of defenses. The idea 0:31:12.640 --> 0:31:18.200 that people bring up metaphors of melting when they're talking 0:31:18.240 --> 0:31:25.720 about people becoming more open and vulnerable with each other. Yeah, which, 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:28.160 on one hand, you might say, well, that's clearly not 0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:30.760 what the Incredible Melting Man is about, that's clearly not 0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:34.160 what RoboCop is about, etcetera. But I'm not quite convinced. 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.800 I think I think these may, on a subconscious level, 0:31:38.080 --> 0:31:41.840 be be about the the fear of of what happens 0:31:41.840 --> 0:31:44.680 if we open ourselves up to the world too much, 0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:47.360 you know, like because it's let me look at RoboCop, 0:31:47.440 --> 0:31:50.560 you know it's or straight trash. These are films in 0:31:50.560 --> 0:31:53.520 which the world around us is depicted as being a 0:31:53.600 --> 0:31:57.520 horrible place, and you know you want to I guess 0:31:57.520 --> 0:32:00.920 from your exterior to remain is is hard and impregnant, 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:04.760 impregnatble is possible right in those cases, like you don't 0:32:04.840 --> 0:32:08.120 want to melt into that world. That world would melt you, though, 0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:10.280 I would say one of the main themes of RoboCop 0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:15.120 is the attempt to hang on to pieces of humanity 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:19.000 in an in in an inhuman or inhumane world, and 0:32:19.040 --> 0:32:24.560 a world that is ruled by by cruelty and corporations 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:30.040 and machines and and transactional relationships trying to hang onto 0:32:30.040 --> 0:32:32.880 something that's pure and good and human. And you see 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:36.000 that emphasized in several of the scenes between Alex Murphy 0:32:36.040 --> 0:32:39.320 or RoboCop and Lewis played by Nancy Allen, his partner. 0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:42.120 They've got these these little moments where you can remember 0:32:42.160 --> 0:32:45.360 that you're human even when he's mostly machine. That's a 0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:48.640 that's a very good point. Yeah, and again just more reasonable, like, no, 0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:53.760 don't just dismiss RoboCop. Is this ultra violent, you know, 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:56.360 piece of trash or something like, There's there's a lot 0:32:56.400 --> 0:32:58.720 going on there. It's so I don't think it's for 0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:02.320 for all tastes, but it's it's definitely a film that 0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:05.080 intends to say something. Yeah, it's a movie. It's a 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:07.920 movie that's relatable to anyone who's trying to remain a 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:11.000 human at the same time that a corporation is extracting 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:15.040 maximum value from what's left of your body. Yeah. So yeah, again, 0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:17.080 this is a world where that you do not want 0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:19.120 to melt into. You don't want to let go and 0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:21.960 become vulnerable, because you want to hang on to that 0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:24.360 part of you that's still human that hasn't been crushed 0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:27.440 by the machine yet. So I think it's also interesting 0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:29.080 in all of this, you know what we're talking about, 0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:33.840 this idea of like the metaphorical body uh melting away 0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:36.320 and uh and all, and then how this is reflected 0:33:36.440 --> 0:33:40.040 in these horrific images of the body melting. But while 0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:43.480 a wax effigy of a human definitely melts, our bodies 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:47.520 don't really melt even in the even when extreme things 0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:52.200 happen to them. Um, generally, what's going on with us 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:55.800 is not quite the phase change that we see occurring 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:59.600 when say ice melts, or even when when when wax 0:33:59.680 --> 0:34:03.000 is melt thing away. Um, it's not quite what it is. 0:34:03.280 --> 0:34:06.760 It's similar to in our episode about freezing, about how 0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:10.279 our bodies don't exactly freeze solid and shatter in the 0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.279 way that pure water can correct. But I think we 0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:15.680 concluded in that episode that if you get a body 0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:19.400 cold enough, like you know, down to liquid nitrogen temperatures, 0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:22.719 and use enough force, you can achieve some shattering like 0:34:23.000 --> 0:34:25.520 the kinds of things. And I think something similar is 0:34:25.560 --> 0:34:29.000 true with melting, that the human body doesn't melt the 0:34:29.040 --> 0:34:32.239 way Nazis do in the movies, but elements of the 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:34.400 human body will kind of melt. I mean the body 0:34:34.480 --> 0:34:37.440 is made of different types of tissues and materials, and 0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:41.520 some of them will sort of melt, yeah, some some 0:34:41.520 --> 0:34:44.680 some parts of our flesh liquefy a little more easily, 0:34:45.080 --> 0:34:47.640 and in rare cases, human fat in the body has 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:51.080 been observed to behave something like the wick of a candle. 0:34:51.200 --> 0:34:53.879 This is called the wick effect. And uh, if you've 0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:57.120 if you've ever read anything about the various theories involving 0:34:57.280 --> 0:35:01.959 um uh spontaneous combust they are the wik effect often 0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:04.680 plays into this. So so coming back to some of the 0:35:04.640 --> 0:35:08.920 the faustages explorations about melting um, I want to come 0:35:08.960 --> 0:35:11.960 back to the idea of of losing oneself through melting, 0:35:12.400 --> 0:35:14.680 and in this I think melting serves as a strong 0:35:14.760 --> 0:35:18.000 metaphor for gradual decay, for aging, for the you know, 0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:22.360 the gradual work of a debilitating disease. Uh. These effects 0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:25.319 coupled with the totality of death, you know, because death 0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:27.960 robs us of everything that we are, and in the 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:31.560 in its wake, there can be an almost candle like experience. 0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:34.360 Right again, think back to what we talked about in 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:38.600 the Wax episodes about how the candle often had magical 0:35:38.880 --> 0:35:43.160 um uh connotations in various cultures because it was this thing, 0:35:43.640 --> 0:35:47.759 this physical thing that burned away completely are almost completely, 0:35:48.160 --> 0:35:49.719 you know. And at the end you might ask, was 0:35:49.760 --> 0:35:52.759 the candle even real? Did it exist? Where did it go? 0:35:53.400 --> 0:35:56.640 And he's certainly in the face of actual human death, 0:35:56.680 --> 0:36:00.680 not movie human death, but but actual personal loss. You 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:04.200 can feel that as well totally. Now the idea of 0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:08.280 melting as phase transfer by which we become more vulnerable 0:36:08.320 --> 0:36:12.120 without adequate defenses, you know, of letting go. Um. You know, 0:36:12.280 --> 0:36:14.880 I think that's extremely apt as well. It certainly ties 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:19.240 into our uses of melting, as in melting with joy um. Again, 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:23.360 perhaps tears add an additional context to a certain degree, Um, 0:36:23.400 --> 0:36:26.080 But for the most part, it's it's about becoming more 0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:30.080 malleable to the world around you, both in positive and 0:36:30.120 --> 0:36:34.040 in negative ways, connecting with other people, connecting with the environment, 0:36:34.640 --> 0:36:38.799 but also perhaps opening yourself to the dangers of other 0:36:38.880 --> 0:36:42.520 people and of society, etcetera. It reminds me a lot 0:36:42.520 --> 0:36:44.840 of what we discussed in our psychedelic episodes, you know, 0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:48.759 about the breaking down of boundaries between ourselves and others, 0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:52.400 between ourselves and the natural world. Not only melting, but 0:36:52.560 --> 0:36:56.799 merging into some larger totality. Uh. In fact, I look back. 0:36:56.840 --> 0:37:00.160 Just just out of curiosity, I did some quick uh 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:03.040 word searches in a in a few texts uh to 0:37:03.120 --> 0:37:06.440 see who is using melting, and I noticed, for instance 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:10.520 that that Huxley did not use melt or melting at 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:13.440 all in the Doors of Perception, but for instance far 0:37:13.480 --> 0:37:16.960 more recent work UM in How to Change Your Mind 0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:20.520 by Michael Pollen, he uses melt or melting multiple times 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.200 in the book. You know, it seems like a pretty 0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:28.759 handy contemporary um uh mental image to draw upon to 0:37:28.840 --> 0:37:32.719 make sense of what's happening with the psychedelic experience. Well, yeah, 0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:36.120 I mean, in fact, I would say melting becomes an 0:37:36.160 --> 0:37:40.960 interesting way of thinking about psychedelic psychedelic compounds effects on 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:43.520 our perception because it even comes through and just the 0:37:43.560 --> 0:37:48.200 sheer mechanics of um how imagery transitions under the effects 0:37:48.200 --> 0:37:50.959 of many psychedelics, where there are these things that people 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:54.640 talk about like using terms like tracers and things like that, 0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:59.959 where mental imagery and even visual imagery is perceived normal 0:38:00.000 --> 0:38:04.560 only doesn't transition as quickly from one state to another, 0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:07.080 but there seemed to be sort of drag effects in 0:38:07.160 --> 0:38:10.640 between images, you know what I'm talking about, uh, And 0:38:10.760 --> 0:38:15.440 that this simulates a kind of liquidity of mental content 0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:19.760 that I think is quite aptly described by metaphors of melting. 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:23.799 Often on psychedelics people describe some version of instead of 0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:26.840 just thinking about image A and then thinking about image B, 0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:31.120 image A melts into image B. Yeah. I don't know 0:38:31.160 --> 0:38:34.040 if that was entirely clear, but just the psychedelics really 0:38:34.080 --> 0:38:37.640 encourage these sort of like dragging transition states. No, I 0:38:37.640 --> 0:38:40.800 absolutely agree, And it's interesting to think that, like, since 0:38:40.880 --> 0:38:44.680 that kind of thing is so common phenomenologically, it would 0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:47.879 almost suggest there is something about these compounds that that 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:51.919 consistently encourage that at a chemical level in the brain. Yeah, 0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:53.359 I mean, and some of them maybe even comes down 0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:56.759 to like how we're how we're we're taking in sense data, right, 0:38:57.239 --> 0:39:00.239 is it are we taking in abstract facts about the 0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:04.200 reality around us? Or is it a more fluid observation 0:39:04.239 --> 0:39:08.680 of reality in terms of of of making note of changes. Oh, 0:39:08.800 --> 0:39:12.480 that's very interesting. So like instead of that, maybe you 0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:16.239 could more easily, in a normal frame of mind, look 0:39:16.280 --> 0:39:18.840 at one thing and then look at another thing because 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:22.000 you've got cognitive filtering that you're applying to your visual 0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:25.040 sense data. You know that that's sort of like excluding 0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:28.919 the transition, the transitional middle period of what your eyes 0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:32.279 are doing. But on the psychedelic you're processing things in 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:35.919 a raw or way that h does not filter out 0:39:36.000 --> 0:39:39.759 the transitional period as efficiently. Yeah, like instead of saying, oh, 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:42.320 that's my face in the mirror, it's more it's a 0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:45.520 continual updating of it. Uh. They can create kind of 0:39:45.520 --> 0:39:48.880 a melting effect without it actually looking like your face 0:39:48.960 --> 0:39:52.080 is straight up melting. So I I would never attempt 0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:55.439 to argue that something like, um, you know that to say, 0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:58.960 the psychedelic experience and humanities istory, the psychedelic experience is 0:39:59.000 --> 0:40:01.360 certainly in the like the twenty a century would have 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:04.960 been like the the soul uh influence on all this 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:09.560 melting um fixation in cinema. But but I can't help 0:40:09.640 --> 0:40:11.640 but wonder if that's part of it. But clearly you 0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:13.840 still have other things. You have just the cinematic influence 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:16.720 and tradition that's going on. When you know, people watch 0:40:17.400 --> 0:40:19.799 a witch melt in one film and then create a 0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:23.239 melting effect in another film later on. Obviously that's part 0:40:23.280 --> 0:40:26.840 of it. Um. And I think also material the materials 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:28.520 in our surrounding culture are a big part of it. 0:40:28.560 --> 0:40:31.000 As well. I mean we see that again with wax. 0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:33.759 Observations of wax, and then what happens when you create 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:37.640 a human of wax? Also, what happens when you have 0:40:38.160 --> 0:40:41.800 you know, a wax culture that becomes eventually an iron culture, 0:40:42.080 --> 0:40:44.239 and then you have all of this melting and smelting 0:40:44.719 --> 0:40:48.200 uh mixed up in um in in your understanding the world. 0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:50.120 And then what happens when you go from an iron 0:40:50.120 --> 0:40:53.320 culture eventually to a plastic culture. You know, it brings 0:40:53.360 --> 0:40:57.080 on new connotations of what melting is, how things melt, 0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:00.920 and how we might imagine our bodies in reference to 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.360 that material. Oh yeah, I was just thinking about the 0:41:03.560 --> 0:41:07.920 metaphors we live by here. So so the metal metaphor 0:41:08.040 --> 0:41:10.840 is one in which it takes a tremendous amount of 0:41:10.880 --> 0:41:14.840 work to change one's shape. The plastic metaphor is pretty 0:41:14.880 --> 0:41:17.000 much just shaped at the factory. You're not gonna melt 0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:19.680 it and reshape it. That would kind of destroy it. 0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:23.200 So it's it's, you know, the plastic age. You're just stuck. 0:41:23.600 --> 0:41:25.560 All right, We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:30.359 be right back. Thank you, thank you, thank and we're back. 0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:33.480 And you know this this ultimately leads us to the 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:35.480 next topic we're going to discuss here, and this will 0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:37.279 be I guess that's sort of the final topic of 0:41:37.320 --> 0:41:41.320 discussion in this episode, and that is another major melting 0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:44.759 symbol or metaphor that comes up that a lot of 0:41:44.840 --> 0:41:47.080 you are probably thinking about already, and that is the 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:50.799 American melting pot. Now quick note again, we're recording this 0:41:50.840 --> 0:41:54.520 episode the week of Halloween, though it won't publish till 0:41:54.560 --> 0:41:57.680 after election day, So just throwing that out there for 0:41:57.760 --> 0:42:01.320 timing should it be essential. So this is another area 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:04.279 where I think when we're talking about melting, everything we've 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:08.040 discussed so far is still very much in play, uh melting, 0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:10.359 and even you know, the fear of melting, but also 0:42:10.440 --> 0:42:14.240 the potential joy of melting, the transformative nature of melting. 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:20.040 It's all reflected in this strange concept of the American 0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:24.240 melting pot, something that I've heard my whole life, and 0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:26.799 and I have to say, I think early on I 0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:29.640 always interpreted it's kind of a stewpot. Maybe I was 0:42:29.680 --> 0:42:34.320 confused by the franchise of Fondue restaurants called the melting pot. 0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:38.120 I'm not exactly sure, because I mean, clearly it is 0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:41.920 referring to a you know, a metallurgical comparison. Here, it 0:42:42.000 --> 0:42:45.360 is an idea of metals melting together in in a pot, 0:42:45.760 --> 0:42:48.840 you combine different metals to form a stronger alloy that 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:52.920 has the great properties of each. Yeah. On some level, though, 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.880 I did recognize that it seemed to be about different 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:59.160 cultures and backgrounds, so that was only coming together in 0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:03.720 this pot that is America and becoming something new. Now 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:08.520 it's this is a broad and h and at times 0:43:08.640 --> 0:43:13.480 very uh, you know, non specific symbol to engage with, 0:43:13.560 --> 0:43:16.239 because it ultimately raises a lot of questions like is 0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:19.440 this is this an accurate, accurate depiction depiction of what 0:43:19.520 --> 0:43:22.640 American culture is? Is it more of an ideal of 0:43:22.680 --> 0:43:25.720 what it could be? Is it a misunderstanding of culture? 0:43:26.440 --> 0:43:29.200 Is it actually a misunderstanding of melting. Is it a 0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:33.600 helpful concept? Is it a hurtful concept? Uh? And certainly, 0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:36.480 at least to some extent. It depends on how it's 0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:41.200 being used and who's using it during what period of 0:43:41.200 --> 0:43:43.560 of of you know, the last century or so of 0:43:43.600 --> 0:43:46.520 American history. You know, is it something to support the 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:50.520 idea of a monoculture and often a particular monoculture, or 0:43:50.680 --> 0:43:54.000 is it anti multiculturalism. So I decided to look into 0:43:54.040 --> 0:43:56.560 this a little bit and say, and just learn from myself, like, 0:43:56.640 --> 0:43:58.520 what what are the origins of this term? I? I 0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:02.200 honestly didn't have any idea. Uh. So I read a 0:44:02.200 --> 0:44:06.680 paper this is from nineteen sixty four by historian Philip Gleason, 0:44:07.280 --> 0:44:10.160 uh and it's titled the Melting Pot Symbol of Fusion 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:14.560 or Confusion in American Quarterly. That's a great title, um 0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:18.000 Infusion or Confusion and American Quarterly, by the way, as 0:44:18.000 --> 0:44:20.840 an academic journal and the official publication of the American 0:44:20.880 --> 0:44:24.960 Studies Association. So I want to roll through some of 0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:28.480 the points that Gleason makes. I am not attempting to 0:44:28.480 --> 0:44:33.040 summarize the entire uh right up here, I recommend seeking 0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:34.880 this out if you want the full story. It's a 0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:37.360 it's it's a it's a wonderful read, and it's invable 0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:41.000 available in full in full on J Starr. So, first 0:44:41.000 --> 0:44:43.839 of all, he ties this this idea back to the 0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:47.160 myth of medals in Plato's The Republic. Uh. This is 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:50.400 also known as the Noble lie. And here's how Malcolm's 0:44:50.680 --> 0:44:55.000 Scofield summarized it in the Cambridge Companion to Plato's republic 0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:58.399 quote The Noble Lie is to serve as charter myth 0:44:58.480 --> 0:45:02.400 for Plato's Good City, a myth of national or civic identity, 0:45:02.719 --> 0:45:06.400 or rather two related myths, one grounding that identity in 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:10.279 the natural brotherhood of the entire indigenous population. They're all 0:45:10.400 --> 0:45:14.120 auto cathanis literally born from the earth. The other making 0:45:14.120 --> 0:45:18.920 the city's differentiated class structure a matter of divine dispensation. 0:45:19.360 --> 0:45:22.520 The god who molds them puts different metals in their souls. 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:25.359 If people can be made to believe it, they will 0:45:25.360 --> 0:45:28.040 be strongly motivated to care for the city and for 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:30.719 each other if they can be made to believe it. So, 0:45:30.840 --> 0:45:33.279 I mean, at least in Plato's vision, there's got to 0:45:33.320 --> 0:45:35.719 be a certain amount of just like getting people on 0:45:35.800 --> 0:45:40.000 board with a certain way of thinking about things. Yeah. Now, 0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:42.680 Gleason writes that the American myth of the metals here 0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:46.000 is is ultimately a rejection of the platonic Um and 0:45:46.160 --> 0:45:49.880 this is the melting pot quote. Unlike Plato's, it was 0:45:49.920 --> 0:45:53.440 not deliberately contrived to provide a supernatural sanction for the 0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:56.560 existing social order. But is it that it is intimately 0:45:56.600 --> 0:46:00.720 related to the origins and nature of American society. Okay, 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:03.840 so it's not a supernatural myth that you would tell people, 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:06.920 like a story that you make up to unify them. 0:46:06.960 --> 0:46:10.080 But in the case of American society, it's supposed to 0:46:10.120 --> 0:46:13.759 be a fact that is literally just like descriptive and 0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:17.839 self evident. Yeah. The interesting thing that Gleason drives someone 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:19.600 about the melting pot, and I hadn't really thought about 0:46:19.600 --> 0:46:21.520 this as well, is that it's it's a curious thing 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:25.440 to be so entrenched in the national mindset, because on 0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:28.520 one hand, it is not an actual thing you can 0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:32.040 point to, Like you can't go to Boston or Washington, 0:46:32.120 --> 0:46:33.879 d c. And be like, hey, should we Hey, family, 0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:35.640 should we go see the melting pot? There it is. 0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:38.880 We've heard all about the American melting pot. Yeah, behold, No, 0:46:39.120 --> 0:46:42.200 it's not a thing. And on the other hand, it's 0:46:42.239 --> 0:46:45.399 not a proper symbol either. You can't say, oh, let 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:48.080 me let me fish some dollar bills out of my wallet. Oh, yes, 0:46:48.080 --> 0:46:50.839 here's the melting pot right here. You couldn't you if 0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:52.799 you were asked to draw the melting pot, what would 0:46:52.840 --> 0:46:56.080 you draw? You know, It's it's not a concrete symbol 0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:58.200 per se, to the extent that it's a symbol, it's 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:00.920 only a linguistic one, like the piece is a symbol, 0:47:00.960 --> 0:47:04.680 but it's never depicted. Yeah. So Gleason says that it 0:47:04.760 --> 0:47:08.240 might be more fair to consider it a concept or theory. 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:11.920 But but he also discusses it just in terms, loosely 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:15.160 as a symbol throughout the paper. Uh. He points out 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:18.200 that it's used in many ways as a similar America 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:22.040 is is like a melting pot. Sometimes it's a metaphor 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:25.320 America is a melting pot, and sometimes it's a symbol. 0:47:25.360 --> 0:47:27.319 They traveled across the sea to be part of the 0:47:27.360 --> 0:47:29.640 melting pot. So the use of the melting pot is 0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:32.319 a symbol, he says, you know, for the process of 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:38.080 immigration into American society. This was popularized basically as recently 0:47:38.120 --> 0:47:42.120 as nineteen o eight with Israel zang Wells play that 0:47:42.239 --> 0:47:45.560 was titled The Melting Pot. Uh. So, it's it's another 0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:47.320 interesting thing about it. It's not really that old of 0:47:47.360 --> 0:47:50.279 an idea, and not that the United States is that 0:47:50.400 --> 0:47:54.399 old of an idea either, But the idea itself does 0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:58.319 date back a good bit before u dating back to 0:47:58.520 --> 0:48:03.879 the eighteenth century contemplations of the New American Man, and 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:07.480 particularly it goes back to the French American writer ja 0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:11.200 Hector St. John de Crevicur, who lived seventeen thirty five 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:16.440 through eighteen thirteen. Crevicur wrote pro American writings during the Revolution. 0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:20.320 He also opposed slavery, and he touched on the melting 0:48:20.360 --> 0:48:24.480 pot concept in Letters from an American Farmer in seventeen two, 0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:27.719 in which he quote developed or implied all of the 0:48:27.719 --> 0:48:31.400 themes unquote involved in the idea that a new American 0:48:31.480 --> 0:48:36.000 man would be the product of cross cultural fertilization. Right, 0:48:36.120 --> 0:48:39.240 So that would be the sort of what was considered 0:48:39.280 --> 0:48:42.560 a revolutionary idea at the time, that you could build 0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:46.480 a civic culture, you could build a polity on the 0:48:46.520 --> 0:48:51.520 basis of shared ideals rather than shared ethnicity. Yeah, yeah, 0:48:51.600 --> 0:48:54.200 Like he was very much it's at least for for 0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:56.480 a time here in a lot of these writings, was 0:48:56.600 --> 0:49:00.320 very gung ho about what America could be. This idea 0:49:00.480 --> 0:49:02.520 like it's going to be a new thing where we're 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:05.480 building a new country here and uh and and the 0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:09.000 people that occupied are going to be a new creation 0:49:09.160 --> 0:49:10.880 in a sense, they're going to be created out of 0:49:10.920 --> 0:49:13.919 out of these pre existing elements. And he did use 0:49:13.960 --> 0:49:17.640 the word melt to describe the process quote individuals of 0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:21.640 all nations are melted into a new race of men unquote, 0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:25.080 which at least in some ways sounds futuristic and positive. 0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:28.160 You know, it sounds very plasma pool in his wake, 0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:30.759 though you see other people occasionally use it in a 0:49:30.800 --> 0:49:34.839 different fashion. For instance, DeWitt Clinton, described by Gleason as 0:49:34.880 --> 0:49:38.600 a nativistic congressman, used it in the eighteen forties as 0:49:38.600 --> 0:49:42.280 a criticism of immigrants who did not melt into American 0:49:42.320 --> 0:49:45.759 culture and kept aspects of their own culture. So again, 0:49:45.800 --> 0:49:48.479 already we see melt the idea of the melting pope 0:49:48.560 --> 0:49:52.040 be used positively, like like, hey, everybody, let's melt together 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:54.719 and become something new. And then here's this other guy 0:49:54.800 --> 0:49:57.160 using it and saying, why aren't people melting? I want 0:49:57.160 --> 0:50:00.600 to see more melting. You're not melting enough. You're not 0:50:00.640 --> 0:50:03.439 melting enough me. Well, no, I'm not melted. I'm I'm 0:50:03.520 --> 0:50:05.279 I'm not in I'm melting, but you you need to 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:08.760 do some melting. But still it doesn't quite inner general 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:11.200 usage just yet. Again, not until that play comes around, 0:50:11.239 --> 0:50:15.280 which we'll get to in a second. Um. Ralph Waldo Emerson, however, 0:50:15.320 --> 0:50:17.520 who lived eighteen o three through eighteen eighty two, he 0:50:17.560 --> 0:50:21.880 came close and discussing how Americans America would quote construct 0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:24.200 a new race and new religion, a new state, and 0:50:24.280 --> 0:50:26.880 new literature, and that it would be as as vigorous, 0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:29.200 quote as the new Europe which came out of the 0:50:29.239 --> 0:50:32.320 smelting pot of the Dark Ages. So Gleason points to 0:50:32.480 --> 0:50:35.640 a few different examples there. But the melting Pot again 0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:39.399 doesn't really take off in in in in the in 0:50:39.400 --> 0:50:43.440 in our language until the early twentieth century. In that 0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.600 period between the dawn of the twentieth century and the 0:50:46.640 --> 0:50:49.920 start of World War one, UH this, Gleason says, is 0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:53.600 a time when one million immigrants roughly entered the United 0:50:53.640 --> 0:50:56.080 States of America, most of them were from southern and 0:50:56.120 --> 0:51:00.279 Eastern Europe, and the resulting communities in major city these 0:51:00.440 --> 0:51:05.160 were considered by some to be to constitute an immigration problem, 0:51:05.160 --> 0:51:07.800 thus the notion of the melting pot. There was a fear, 0:51:08.320 --> 0:51:12.360 of an express fear of what non assimilating immigrants meant 0:51:12.640 --> 0:51:16.040 for the country. Now. The play itself was a big hit, 0:51:16.080 --> 0:51:18.440 at least with with audiences, apparently not so much with 0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:22.759 the with the theater critics of the day, but The 0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:26.040 plot concerned a Russian Jewish immigrant family and the main 0:51:26.160 --> 0:51:29.120 characters desire to melt into a new future devoid of 0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:32.200 ethnic division and hatred, and it also also concerns the 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:34.360 plight of the Jewish people in this period of history. 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:38.959 But in in criticizing the average American of the day, 0:51:39.239 --> 0:51:43.400 it also, you know, proposed that it put forth this 0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:48.160 idea that the melting pot is not something that either 0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:50.480 that has been done or is done, is not part 0:51:50.520 --> 0:51:54.080 of a process that we see completed in any person 0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:57.719 around us, but rather it is an ongoing process that 0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:00.520 we're all going to be reborn out off. If that 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:03.799 makes sense. So it's not it's so if I, if 0:52:03.800 --> 0:52:06.880 I understand the play correctly, The concept of the melting 0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:10.680 plot employed here is not one of hey, immigrants, go 0:52:10.719 --> 0:52:13.080 get into the melting pot and then come out and 0:52:13.080 --> 0:52:14.799 then you can be with me. It's more like we 0:52:14.840 --> 0:52:17.200 are all in the melting pot. We are all melting 0:52:17.560 --> 0:52:22.439 into something better and and new. Right, Not an exhortation 0:52:22.520 --> 0:52:25.040 of like you're not melting properly, but just saying like 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:29.160 it's descriptive. The melting pot is what happens. Yes, it 0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:31.879 is an ongoing thing that is had it is the 0:52:31.880 --> 0:52:35.080 the ongoing transformation of what it means to be an 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:38.200 American now. Gleason points out that Theodore Roosevelt loved it, 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:40.440 but he didn't like the lines in there about Americans 0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:44.480 being lax on divorce or public corruption. So the playwright 0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:50.240 took it out. He's like, okay, fair enough to happy yeah, um, 0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:53.760 but you know, it's it also seems like the play 0:52:54.600 --> 0:52:57.640 carried with it assert you know, divisive interpretations depending on 0:52:57.640 --> 0:53:00.120 who was thinking about the play and was all so 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:03.759 then thinking about immigration, you know, is it preaching too 0:53:03.880 --> 0:53:06.879 much conformity on the part of the immigrant or too 0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:10.000 much transformation on the part of the nation. And I 0:53:10.000 --> 0:53:12.160 I guess in that respect, it sounds like the play 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:15.520 did what what good art should do, right. I mean, 0:53:15.560 --> 0:53:18.480 it's it's maybe pissing off everybody to a certain extent 0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:23.239 or making everybody think about, like, what what's going on 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:25.920 in the country. Well, if I'm understanding correctly, I mean 0:53:25.960 --> 0:53:29.799 it maybe sort of assuming something that sounds kind of 0:53:29.800 --> 0:53:32.640 ahead of its time, which is that the cultural assimilation 0:53:32.680 --> 0:53:38.200 of immigrant communities into into a new country is not 0:53:38.280 --> 0:53:41.560 necessarily what what the you know, the nativist that the 0:53:41.640 --> 0:53:45.040 angry finger waggers are saying that you're not assimilating good enough, 0:53:45.600 --> 0:53:48.600 that like that they need to become like the nativist 0:53:48.640 --> 0:53:52.560 finger waggers. Instead, it's the nativist finger waggers and the 0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:56.160 new immigrants are all going to in the future assimilate 0:53:56.280 --> 0:54:00.479 into this this common thing that is yet to come. Yeah, 0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:03.160 I think so. Yeah, the idea that it's it's it's 0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:06.319 something that is happening and will happen. Uh Yeah, as 0:54:06.360 --> 0:54:08.480 opposed to this this thing that has supposed to have 0:54:08.520 --> 0:54:10.880 already occurred. But but it it does get back to 0:54:10.920 --> 0:54:12.799 a lot of what we discussed already about like how 0:54:12.800 --> 0:54:15.759 we think about melting, both in its positive and negative connotations. 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:18.680 You know, if I'm melting, am I gonna lose myself? 0:54:19.040 --> 0:54:21.360 Will I be hurt when I become soft and malleable? 0:54:21.560 --> 0:54:25.000 I am? Am I ready for change? You know? Uh? 0:54:25.040 --> 0:54:27.000 And and as Gleason points out, you know there's a 0:54:27.000 --> 0:54:29.360 lot of variety and how the melting pot is presented, 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:31.759 and and there are a lot of questions and all 0:54:31.800 --> 0:54:33.759 the time about what exactly you're trying to say, like 0:54:33.960 --> 0:54:36.840 it are we talking about a biological blending? Like is 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:40.719 it about you know, different ethnicities becoming one. Uh is 0:54:40.760 --> 0:54:44.640 it a cultural blending that we're talking about. Is it 0:54:44.719 --> 0:54:46.960 is it all of the culture or just like aspects 0:54:47.000 --> 0:54:49.840 of the culture. I mean again, it depends on who's 0:54:50.280 --> 0:54:52.759 who's trotting it out really, Uh, you know, is it 0:54:52.760 --> 0:54:55.360 describing something that used to take place, something that is 0:54:55.400 --> 0:54:57.680 taking place, something that needs to take place, or is 0:54:57.719 --> 0:55:00.200 taking place with with a few, with the future in mind, 0:55:00.000 --> 0:55:04.600 and etcetera. Uh So I found it all very very um, 0:55:04.920 --> 0:55:08.040 very intriguing to think about. It makes me even less 0:55:08.080 --> 0:55:11.080 likely to use the term melting pot in my own 0:55:11.120 --> 0:55:15.000 conversations unless i'm you know, uh talking with somebody about 0:55:15.040 --> 0:55:18.279 the concept itself. Like it seems it seems like it's 0:55:18.320 --> 0:55:21.480 just too um it's too vague and too open to 0:55:21.520 --> 0:55:26.959 interpretation and also uh too too easy to misuse. Yeah, 0:55:27.000 --> 0:55:29.080 you could look at it that way. And I gotta say, 0:55:29.080 --> 0:55:31.920 I don't know if I've ever really been somebody who 0:55:32.400 --> 0:55:34.759 used this image myself. But on the other hand, as 0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:37.920 as somebody who you know, believes in the project of 0:55:38.000 --> 0:55:42.400 multiculturalism and uh and believes like immigration is good for 0:55:42.440 --> 0:55:46.240 a nation, um, I I do think it's also useful 0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:50.640 to have imagery, like having symbols and imagery really does 0:55:50.760 --> 0:55:54.040 help an idea take root. It's it's possible that this 0:55:54.120 --> 0:55:57.080 similar imagery is not the best symbol or imagery. I 0:55:57.080 --> 0:55:59.600 don't know, because it's certainly right that it has like 0:55:59.680 --> 0:56:02.799 ton of ambiguous meanings. But when you're talking about a 0:56:02.840 --> 0:56:06.360 trend as big as uh, you know, trying to form 0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:10.360 a multicultural polity, I guess there probably is going to 0:56:10.440 --> 0:56:14.520 be a lot of ambiguity in in whatever imagery you use. Yeah, yeah, 0:56:14.880 --> 0:56:16.759 I mean it's it's it's asking a lot I guess 0:56:16.800 --> 0:56:19.359 of a of a symbol or metaphor to really sum 0:56:19.480 --> 0:56:22.520 up um some of what this this uh, this symbol 0:56:22.600 --> 0:56:25.080 or metaphor has called on to do. But again I 0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:27.760 found it interesting, especially again just in terms of thinking 0:56:27.840 --> 0:56:30.760 once more about melting as this thing that has positive 0:56:30.800 --> 0:56:35.560 and negative connotations that ultimately is about how we think 0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:40.080 about change in our lives, uh, in in the world, uh, 0:56:40.120 --> 0:56:44.080 you know, political change, societal change, cultural change, biological change. 0:56:44.280 --> 0:56:46.719 I gotta say, when you proposed a Melt movie episode, 0:56:46.760 --> 0:56:48.799 this is not the direction I expected it to go. 0:56:48.840 --> 0:56:51.600 But this has been really interesting. Yeah, I I enjoyed 0:56:51.640 --> 0:56:53.479 it as well. I don't think I ended. I thought 0:56:53.480 --> 0:56:55.600 that we'd end up talking about the you know, the 0:56:55.640 --> 0:56:59.080 substance of America uh so much. Um. That was not 0:56:59.160 --> 0:57:01.640 the intent then active the attempt, if it was any intent, 0:57:01.680 --> 0:57:05.279 it was to not talk about anything political or or 0:57:05.719 --> 0:57:09.200 or America centrics. So but here we are, we have 0:57:09.280 --> 0:57:11.880 melted into it, and I'll proudly melt up next to 0:57:11.920 --> 0:57:15.160 you and melt hers still today are there songs about 0:57:15.200 --> 0:57:23.120 melting um in the Sopranos. There is a metal band, 0:57:23.880 --> 0:57:27.640 uh that has a song called melt. I know, there's 0:57:27.720 --> 0:57:30.720 there's a there's a Calm Truise album called Galactic Melt, 0:57:31.240 --> 0:57:33.600 which I think is nice because his his sound has 0:57:33.640 --> 0:57:35.760 a very like that that I think it sums up 0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:38.440 with something about it sound like something galactic, something that 0:57:38.560 --> 0:57:42.080 is like spacey and specific. But the melting aspect of 0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:46.840 it has implies a kind of you know, biological uh 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:50.080 you know, a morphous quality that's there as well, sort 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:54.280 of like it's it's biology and technology fused together into 0:57:54.280 --> 0:57:58.600 one sound. Shoegaze type music has some good sonic melting 0:57:58.680 --> 0:58:01.320 qualities I would I would consider like my Bloody Valentine 0:58:01.320 --> 0:58:04.680 and a very melty band. Yeah, I guess a vapor 0:58:04.720 --> 0:58:06.720 wave in it in its own way. Like just the 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:11.560 word vapor wave implies phase transition as well, but different, 0:58:11.760 --> 0:58:16.360 not a different one, not melting, but sublimation. Yeah, and 0:58:16.640 --> 0:58:18.600 I don't know that that's something we really explore that 0:58:18.720 --> 0:58:21.360 much in our our horror movies. So I don't know 0:58:21.480 --> 0:58:24.560 what happens when the mall turns not from a solid 0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:27.280 into a liquid, but a solid directly into a gas. 0:58:28.040 --> 0:58:30.880 Then you get an eternal loop of the chorus from 0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:36.200 Take These Broken Wings So real quick? Is that? You know? 0:58:36.320 --> 0:58:38.800 Is that what happens in um the Avengers movies, the 0:58:38.840 --> 0:58:42.000 whole fingersnap thing a are are people turning into vapor 0:58:42.080 --> 0:58:43.960 or they just turning into ash? And that I don't know. 0:58:44.200 --> 0:58:47.680 I haven't seen those movies. I watched the first one. 0:58:47.760 --> 0:58:50.960 The listeners will have to that and being exposed for 0:58:51.000 --> 0:58:54.120 the millionth time is somebody who I don't. I'm not 0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:56.720 in the marble thing. I don't really. Well, you'll come 0:58:56.760 --> 0:58:59.200 back for the next Blade film, I hope. Oh, I 0:58:59.200 --> 0:59:01.560 guess you know what. I still haven't seen Blade three, 0:59:01.680 --> 0:59:05.680 so uh, well, it has one good line in it, 0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:08.160 but I can send you a clip of that and 0:59:08.200 --> 0:59:10.640 then you're good to go. Okay, alright, Well, We're gonna 0:59:10.640 --> 0:59:12.920 go ahead and close it out here. This was this 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:15.120 was melting. This says the episode is going to close 0:59:15.160 --> 0:59:20.120 out this year's Halloween festivities. But don't worry. We're you know, 0:59:20.160 --> 0:59:25.080 we're coming back next week and it's gonna be new topics. Uh, 0:59:25.400 --> 0:59:28.200 perhaps a little less halloweeny, but just as h as 0:59:28.200 --> 0:59:32.000 exciting and contemplated in theory. Anyway, Well, we'll see where 0:59:32.000 --> 0:59:33.200 it goes. We're just gonna see where the rest of 0:59:33.200 --> 0:59:35.520 the year Texas. 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