WEBVTT - Smallpox: Gone but Not Forgotten

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<v Speaker 1>We heard a lot about coronaviruses over the past few years,

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<v Speaker 1>really a lot, maybe too much, definitely more than we

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<v Speaker 1>ever expected to hear, But we heard a lot less

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<v Speaker 1>about other viruses. And viruses are amazing. Viruses are older

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<v Speaker 1>than animals, they're older than plants. Some scientists think viruses

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<v Speaker 1>may be the origin of all life on Earth. Viruses

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<v Speaker 1>have been infecting humans, sometimes invisibly, sometimes with terrible consequences,

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<v Speaker 1>for as long as there have been humans. The story

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<v Speaker 1>of viruses is the story of humanity survival as a species,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're going to tell some of those viral stories

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<v Speaker 1>on this podcast. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is Incubation,

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<v Speaker 1>a show about the other viruses. It's about science and

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<v Speaker 1>about culture. It's about how viruses attack people and how

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<v Speaker 1>people fight back. On each episode of Incubation, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to tell the story of one virus, and we're starting

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<v Speaker 1>off with one of the deadliest viruses in history, smallpox.

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<v Speaker 1>Smallpox stalked humanity for thousands of years. It gave people

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<v Speaker 1>rashes and blisters all over their bodies, and often it

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<v Speaker 1>killed them. Smallpox killed hundreds of millions of people, but

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<v Speaker 1>we humans fought back in profound and brilliant ways. Our

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<v Speaker 1>episode today starts with the story of Edward Jenner, a

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<v Speaker 1>doctor in the British countryside, and it ends centuries later

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<v Speaker 1>with thousands of people working together to wipe smallpox from

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<v Speaker 1>the face of the earth. My first guest today is

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<v Speaker 1>Gareth Williams. He's the author of Angel of Death, the

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<v Speaker 1>Story of Smallpox, and Gareth he knows a lot about

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<v Speaker 1>Edward Jenner.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a great fields naturalist, and he also worked

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<v Speaker 2>out something about the migration of birds, which was completely

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<v Speaker 2>unknown before that. People thought that swallows went off and

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<v Speaker 2>hid in mud under riverbanks and things like this.

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<v Speaker 1>I read that he built a hydrogen balloon that flew

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<v Speaker 1>twelve miles, That he played the violin, that he wrote poetry.

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<v Speaker 2>He did all the above. He played the flute I

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<v Speaker 2>think rather bet, and he played the fiddle. He sang.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a good singing voice. I can recite one

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<v Speaker 2>of his poems if you'd like it.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, give it to me, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>That he wrote it when a man called doctor Weight

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<v Speaker 2>died and doctor Weight had made medicinal gingerbread biscuits gingerbread nuts,

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<v Speaker 2>which not only tasted good but actually killed intestinal worms,

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<v Speaker 2>talking about tapeworms and things that around to twenty feet

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<v Speaker 2>or more. So here's a put on the death of

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Weight. It begins with the Latin names of the

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<v Speaker 2>worms Ascarides, Tearies, Lumbricki, and all he Kyle sucking insects

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<v Speaker 2>that tremblingly crawl. No more be afraid You're quite safe

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<v Speaker 2>in our gun, for Dr Waite has finished making his

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<v Speaker 2>gingerbread nuts.

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<v Speaker 1>So in addition to writing poems about nuts, non trivially,

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<v Speaker 1>Jenner also invented the first vaccine in human history. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that. That's really what we're here to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about today. He's born in seventeen forty nine. He's growing

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<v Speaker 1>up in England in the you know, second half of

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<v Speaker 1>the seventeen hundreds. What would his experience of smallpox have.

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<v Speaker 2>Been in Jenner's day? If you got smallpox and you

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<v Speaker 2>had roughly a one in three chants of getting it

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<v Speaker 2>during your lifetime, then you had about a one in

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<v Speaker 2>four chance of being killed by it. He went to

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<v Speaker 2>boarding school when he was eight. Both his parents had

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<v Speaker 2>died by then, and he had to be protected against

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<v Speaker 2>smallpox which had broken out nearby.

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<v Speaker 1>And this thing happens to him where somebody, if I

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<v Speaker 1>understand right, cuts open his arm and puts dried out

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<v Speaker 1>pus from a smallpox patient into the cut on Jenner's arm.

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<v Speaker 1>What's going on there?

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<v Speaker 2>This was what was called variolation. And variola is the

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<v Speaker 2>Latin word for speckled or spotted. It's the old name

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<v Speaker 2>for small pox, and it's the name of the virus

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<v Speaker 2>that causes small pox, of Variola virus. And in brief,

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<v Speaker 2>varilation was giving healthy people, usually children, the real thing

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<v Speaker 2>in the hope that the artificial infection wouldn't kill them

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<v Speaker 2>and that it would somehow leave them protected against future

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<v Speaker 2>attacks of naturally acquired small pox. It was about a

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<v Speaker 2>one in fifty mortality, so very very much lower. You

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<v Speaker 2>got a little bit of small pox pus from one

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<v Speaker 2>of those revolting blisters that covered people in the tens

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<v Speaker 2>and thousands, and you would scratch a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>that revolting fluid into the skin on the arm of

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<v Speaker 2>a healthy child.

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<v Speaker 1>Does it work?

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<v Speaker 2>It's mad, bad, crazy, dangerous, sounds completely counterintuitive. The amazing

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<v Speaker 2>thing is it did work, very much so. And the

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<v Speaker 2>other thing is that if you were variolated, even if

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<v Speaker 2>you survived while you had your artificial dose of smallpox.

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<v Speaker 2>You have the real thing. So even though you might

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<v Speaker 2>get over it in two or three weeks, you could

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<v Speaker 2>spread it to other non immune people, you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>going back into the community, causing little mini outbreaks of

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<v Speaker 2>smallpox and killing lots of other people bi collateral damage.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. So okay, So this is the world. Jenner is

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<v Speaker 1>born into the world where you can either get smallpox

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<v Speaker 1>and a good chance of dying from it if you

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<v Speaker 1>get it, or if you're sort of lucky in a

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<v Speaker 1>weird way, you can get variolated and have a non

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<v Speaker 1>trivial chance of getting and dying of smallpox and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>spreading it to other people. That was it. Those were

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<v Speaker 1>the options.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>How does he go from being an eight year old

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<v Speaker 1>boy getting very related to inventing the first vaccine in

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<v Speaker 1>the world.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, if you want the conventional story, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like you're gonna give me two stories. One

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<v Speaker 1>is it Jenner classic, So give me Jenner clas.

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<v Speaker 2>The Jena classic is he is a medical apprentice in

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<v Speaker 2>his early teens and he meets a milkmaid small pox

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<v Speaker 2>has reappeared nearby, and she allegedly says to him, look, Gov,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't need to worry about me having that, because

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<v Speaker 2>I've had cowpox and that means that I can never

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<v Speaker 2>ever catch smallpox. And this was complete news to January,

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<v Speaker 2>never come across it. But it was also complete news

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<v Speaker 2>to all his teachers. It simply wasn't part of conventional

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<v Speaker 2>medical knowledge. It was common knowledge in the farming community.

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<v Speaker 1>It was folk knowledge that had not sort of crossed

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<v Speaker 1>over to kind of high brow medical knowledge.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people didn't want to believe it because

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<v Speaker 2>it had come up from the peasantry.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting, so you're saying, that's kind of the classic tale.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think it's true.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd like to believe it's true. The alternative story is

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<v Speaker 2>that one of Jenna's medical colleagues in Thornbury was actually

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<v Speaker 2>a variolator, very successful one, and he noted, apparently independently,

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<v Speaker 2>that some people that he valulated the varulation didn't take.

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<v Speaker 2>In otherwords, there was no sign that they'd caught this

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<v Speaker 2>artificial dose of smallpox. And this man is called John Fuster.

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<v Speaker 2>And story B if you like, is that it was

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<v Speaker 2>actually Feusta who made the original observation. Jenna was a

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<v Speaker 2>close friend of his, and Jenna may have decided to

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<v Speaker 2>pick up on it. Feusa didn't want to pursue it

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<v Speaker 2>because he was making so much money as a valulator.

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<v Speaker 2>He didn't see the need for any particular improvement.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so Jenner has this idea, whether it's from the

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<v Speaker 1>milkmaid or from his colleague, this idea that cow pox,

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<v Speaker 1>which we should say is not a deadly disease in humans, right,

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<v Speaker 1>can protect humans against a smallpox. What does he do

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<v Speaker 1>with this idea.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, he doesn't do anything with it for over thirty years.

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<v Speaker 2>He goes off he finishes his medical studies in London.

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<v Speaker 2>In seventeen ninety six, he gets the idea of collecting

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<v Speaker 2>cases of people who've had cowpox and look to see

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<v Speaker 2>if they appeared to be protected against smallpox. And he

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<v Speaker 2>collects a number of cases and the story appears to

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<v Speaker 2>be true. And then he moves beyond that to actually

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<v Speaker 2>test the hypothesis that giving somebody an artificial dose of

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<v Speaker 2>cowpox will protect them against smallpox. The killer and his

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<v Speaker 2>first guinea pig is his gardener's son, James Phipps. And

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<v Speaker 2>the ethics might be regarded as a bit dodgy, because

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<v Speaker 2>back then, if you were the gardener's son, then you

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<v Speaker 2>were effectively the property of the Lord of the manor

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<v Speaker 2>III Jenna, and he introduced cowpox into the arm of

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<v Speaker 2>James Phipps, who was eight years old. And what Jenna

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<v Speaker 2>did was to find a case of cowpox with a

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<v Speaker 2>lovely juicy cowpox blister on the back of her hand.

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<v Speaker 2>He stuck a lancid in that collected the juice and

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<v Speaker 2>scratched the cowpox juice into the arm of James Phipps,

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<v Speaker 2>and that all went well. The lad got a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a local reaction, he got a bit of a fever.

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<v Speaker 2>Two weeks later he was back to normal. So Jenna

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<v Speaker 2>now has to test his hypothesis to see if the

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<v Speaker 2>lad is protected against smallpox. The killer gave him a

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<v Speaker 2>small dose of smallpox and it didn't take So that,

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<v Speaker 2>if you like, was the Eureka moment.

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<v Speaker 1>So he just invented the first vaccine in the history

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<v Speaker 1>of the world, a vaccine against maybe the most deadly

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<v Speaker 1>infectious disease. Truly one of the great discoveries in the

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<v Speaker 1>history of medicine and the history of public health. What's

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<v Speaker 1>the first thing he does to try and tell the world.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, he writes it all up as a paper and

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<v Speaker 2>he sends it off to the Royal Society, and amazingly,

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<v Speaker 2>the Royal Society reject the paper.

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<v Speaker 1>They reject his paper, They reject the guy just invented vaccines.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they probably wouldn't have appreciated the full significance. But

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<v Speaker 2>you're right. It is one of the great pinnacle publications

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<v Speaker 2>in the history of medicine and science.

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<v Speaker 1>But he doesn't give up. What's he doing next?

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<v Speaker 2>He writes it up as a pamphlet. It's always known

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<v Speaker 2>as The Inquiry, okay, and it was published by private

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<v Speaker 2>printer in Soho came out in September seventeen ninety eight.

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<v Speaker 2>Jenna did not attempt to hide or make secret his invention.

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<v Speaker 2>He wanted everybody to know. He wanted everybody to do

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<v Speaker 2>it because he wanted to conquer smallpox.

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<v Speaker 1>But you're saying he could also have not published it

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<v Speaker 1>and just tried to sell vaccination himself and be the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of soul purveyor of it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly it. His aim was to spread the word

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<v Speaker 2>as widely and as quickly as possible. It really takes

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<v Speaker 2>off and people recognize the value of vaccination immediately, and

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<v Speaker 2>within a few months it's on the continent of Europe,

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<v Speaker 2>it's widespread across England. It's making its appearance in North America.

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<v Speaker 1>You said within months, within months, months, within This is

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<v Speaker 1>an era when there's obviously no electronic communication. They're going

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<v Speaker 1>to have to put the inquiry on a ship and

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<v Speaker 1>sail it across the ocean. But you're saying it spreads

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<v Speaker 1>basically a media in.

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<v Speaker 2>That absolute absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>What do we know about how many people are being vaccinated?

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<v Speaker 1>How widespread it is, Like, tell me more about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's still the preserve of the rich and wealthy

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<v Speaker 2>who could afford to pay for medical services, so it's

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<v Speaker 2>not widespread and philanthropic, but in terms of geographical reach

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<v Speaker 2>it is very impressive. Reaches Switzerland very quickly. The inquiry

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<v Speaker 2>reaches the King of Spain and he arranges for the

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<v Speaker 2>divine gift of vaccination to be sent out to all

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<v Speaker 2>the Spanish colonies and the Caribbean, South America around the

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<v Speaker 2>back of the world.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is all happening in his lifetime, right, He's

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<v Speaker 1>seeing this happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Jenna works very hard actually trying to spread the word.

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<v Speaker 2>He is always one of the great saints of medicine.

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<v Speaker 2>But he wasn't a perfect man. In any sense. And

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<v Speaker 2>one of the things that he got wrong quite early

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<v Speaker 2>was to be able to connon himself into thinking the

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<v Speaker 2>vaccination was absolutely per effect, whereas in fact it did

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<v Speaker 2>have side effects. For example, you could get a farmyard

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<v Speaker 2>infection from kyle pox having get scratched into your arm.

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<v Speaker 2>And the other thing was that it needed to be topped.

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<v Speaker 1>Up, meaning like a booster, you needed what.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely so other countries were giving boosters in the early

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<v Speaker 2>teenage years. And again if smallpox broke out again, say

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<v Speaker 2>in Germany, then people nearby would be revaccinated again. So

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<v Speaker 2>that was one of the things that he got tragically wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>What's the end of his story.

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<v Speaker 2>He gets gifts and accolades from all over the world.

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<v Speaker 2>He gets diamond ring from the Empress of Russia. He

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<v Speaker 2>spent his declining years, if you like, after his wife died,

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<v Speaker 2>being the vaccine clerk to the world. That's the way

0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.199
<v Speaker 2>he described himself. He was sitting in his office writing

0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.760
<v Speaker 2>letters back to all the fan mail that poured in

0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.040
<v Speaker 2>from across the world. He was able to look around

0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.000
<v Speaker 2>the world and see a world that was already changed.

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:03.280
<v Speaker 1>By the way, how does it come up with the

0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:04.199
<v Speaker 1>name vaccine?

0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, the name was actually coined by somebody else. It's

0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:12.560
<v Speaker 2>from the Latin vaca, meaning cow, and Louis pasteur. When

0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:17.199
<v Speaker 2>he invented his rabies vaccine and various other vaccines, he

0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 2>suggested that all such immanising or protective preparations should be

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.720
<v Speaker 2>called vaccines in honor of Jenna. So that's why we

0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:27.079
<v Speaker 2>call them all vaccines today.

0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for your time. Was a delight to talk

0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:31.760
<v Speaker 1>with you.

0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 2>Pleasure. Thank you for yours.

0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Edward Jenner died in eighteen twenty three. In the twentieth century,

0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.719
<v Speaker 1>his vaccine would serve as the inspiration for one of

0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.640
<v Speaker 1>the most ambitious public health projects in the history of

0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:49.640
<v Speaker 1>the world, to wipe out every single case of smallpox forever.

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:59.400
<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back. In the first half of the

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 1>twentieth century, Edward Jenner's vaccine continued to spread, but huge

0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.120
<v Speaker 1>swaths of the population remained unvaccinated, and hundreds of millions

0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.080
<v Speaker 1>of people continued to die of smallpox. The world had

0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.440
<v Speaker 1>become smaller and more connected. Air travel was taking off,

0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.480
<v Speaker 1>and smallpox was happy to hitch a ride. Even countries

0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 1>that thought they'd eliminated smallpox found out that they could

0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:26.280
<v Speaker 1>only keep it at Bay for so long. A smallpox

0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.080
<v Speaker 1>scare grips Great Britain. In the wake of five deaths

0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:31.560
<v Speaker 1>attributed to the disease that was all but wiped out

0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.240
<v Speaker 1>in Western nations, tens of thousands throughout the nation line

0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.160
<v Speaker 1>up at health centers to be inoculated.

0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:38.880
<v Speaker 2>The outbreak of a bad.

0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.560
<v Speaker 3>Disease is checked by modern medical science.

0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.000
<v Speaker 1>In the middle of the twentieth century, leaders around the

0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:52.040
<v Speaker 1>world cooked up an audacious plan to drive the smallpox

0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.320
<v Speaker 1>virus to extinction, to eradicate it from the face of

0:14:55.360 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 1>the earth. Donald Hopkins directed the smallpox eradication campaign in

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.240
<v Speaker 1>Sierra Leone in the late nineteen sixties, just as the

0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.800
<v Speaker 1>global eradication project was getting started. When he arrived in

0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.680
<v Speaker 1>Sierra Leone, the West African nation had the highest smallpox

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:13.920
<v Speaker 1>rate in the world. You get to this country, what

0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:15.160
<v Speaker 1>do you see on the ground?

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:20.400
<v Speaker 4>Well, I see, first of all a beautiful country, and

0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.280
<v Speaker 4>then I'm introduced to the health workers that I'm going

0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.480
<v Speaker 4>to be working with and find that they are very capable,

0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:33.240
<v Speaker 4>very enthusiastic. I'm young and very optimistic as well. Yes,

0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.920
<v Speaker 4>people were dying, but the upshot of that was that

0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.440
<v Speaker 4>people were eager. Most people were eager to get vaccinated,

0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.240
<v Speaker 4>and so we did not have a problem of trying

0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:49.480
<v Speaker 4>to persuade people to cooperate with the program, and that

0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.120
<v Speaker 4>made things a lot easier.

0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, easier, but this is still a country where there

0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.160
<v Speaker 1>are a lot of places that are just hard to

0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.760
<v Speaker 1>get to, right. I mean, are there any particular instances

0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.240
<v Speaker 1>you remember that were that were especially challenging.

0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.640
<v Speaker 4>So in the summer of nineteen sixty eight, it's the

0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.800
<v Speaker 4>rainy season in sily On, we get a message that

0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:14.200
<v Speaker 4>there's an outbreak in this area southeast of the capital

0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 4>area called Moyamba. So I went there with a driver

0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.840
<v Speaker 4>and a couple of the Sierra Leone and public health workers.

0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:29.600
<v Speaker 4>And the village where that we were summoned to visit,

0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:35.600
<v Speaker 4>in fact, was about a forty five minute trek from

0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.720
<v Speaker 4>the nearest road. I'm afraid of snakes, and this was

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.680
<v Speaker 4>a This was a trek through the forest.

0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.040
<v Speaker 1>You're like Indiana Jones, You're wearing a hot.

0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.440
<v Speaker 4>No hat I had. I had a full head of

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.680
<v Speaker 4>hair then, so I didn't I didn't have to wear

0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.000
<v Speaker 4>a hat. But to we get into this get into

0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.720
<v Speaker 4>this village, and there are lots of people with smallpox,

0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 4>including most notably a newborn infant only a few days old,

0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:10.439
<v Speaker 4>that was lying on a mat between its mother and

0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.359
<v Speaker 4>the mother's co wife.

0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:14.560
<v Speaker 1>When you say co wife, what does that mean?

0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.600
<v Speaker 4>That means that they were both married to the same man. Okay,

0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:22.879
<v Speaker 4>and the child had not been vaccinated. But both of

0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:27.640
<v Speaker 4>these two women were in the full throes of smallpox infections,

0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:32.400
<v Speaker 4>and so that infant had been exposed. Fortunately, I had

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.240
<v Speaker 4>vaccine with me. I was able to vaccinate the infant,

0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:40.120
<v Speaker 4>and later about ten days later, when I came back,

0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.960
<v Speaker 4>I saw that the vaccination was taken and that baby

0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:44.560
<v Speaker 4>was saved.

0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.240
<v Speaker 1>And just to just because you know, I've never seen smallpox, thankfully.

0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.520
<v Speaker 1>When you say that two women were in the throes

0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:54.959
<v Speaker 1>of infection, what did they look like?

0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.560
<v Speaker 4>Well, it's hard to see people suffering so much, because

0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:02.840
<v Speaker 4>it's not only that people their bodies are swollen. They're

0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.280
<v Speaker 4>covered in all of these pustules. But it's very painful.

0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.879
<v Speaker 4>People describe it as feeling as if your skin was

0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.840
<v Speaker 4>on fire. Smallpox caused a generalized rash over most of

0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:20.720
<v Speaker 4>the body. It was most intense over the face, the hands,

0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:24.359
<v Speaker 4>and the feet. But in this instance you could see

0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:31.119
<v Speaker 4>these raised pimples first you get little bumps that turn

0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:38.400
<v Speaker 4>into blisters that then fill with puffs, which then these

0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:44.240
<v Speaker 4>blisters break, and if you're lucky and survive the broken

0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.560
<v Speaker 4>blisters and puffs, that all dries up, and gradually, over

0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.720
<v Speaker 4>the course of two three weeks the scabs drop off.

0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:55.640
<v Speaker 4>But all of that is infectious, and people when they're

0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.919
<v Speaker 4>just even before the rash starts, when they start feeling

0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:05.280
<v Speaker 4>headache fever, they're already breathing out smallpox virus onto other people.

0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:09.960
<v Speaker 4>And so the challenge is the situation like that, to

0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.280
<v Speaker 4>vaccinate as many people who do not yet have smallpox

0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:15.720
<v Speaker 4>as quickly as you can.

0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.399
<v Speaker 1>So, okay, So you get to this village. You see

0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.760
<v Speaker 1>these two women and the baby. The women are clearly sick.

0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:25.040
<v Speaker 1>You vaccinate the baby because the smallpox vaccine can actually

0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:27.840
<v Speaker 1>help people who are in the early stages of an infection.

0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:30.600
<v Speaker 1>What do you do next? What else is happening in

0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:31.399
<v Speaker 1>this village?

0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:37.640
<v Speaker 4>In this sensance, we learned very quickly that two weeks before,

0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 4>a very prominent man in that village who was head

0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.639
<v Speaker 4>of a secret society, had gotten smallpox and had died.

0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.440
<v Speaker 4>Because he was so prominent, people came from other villages

0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:55.440
<v Speaker 4>to visit him when he was ill, and people came

0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:56.400
<v Speaker 4>for his funeral.

0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.080
<v Speaker 1>This is a giant alarm bell. It's very bad news

0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 1>for you. In nineteen sixty.

0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.560
<v Speaker 4>Eight, very very bad news, because we also began learning

0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.000
<v Speaker 4>when I was there. What we were seeing was that

0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.640
<v Speaker 4>many people had come from other villages as well surrounding

0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:18.560
<v Speaker 4>this village, and so this was a much bigger outbreak

0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:20.040
<v Speaker 4>than what we were expecting.

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.280
<v Speaker 1>So tell me about what containment meant at this time

0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:24.119
<v Speaker 1>in this context.

0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:27.840
<v Speaker 4>Yes, when we first began working in the smallpox program,

0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:32.680
<v Speaker 4>the strategy was to mass vaccinate eighty percent or more

0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:38.000
<v Speaker 4>of the population. The containment surveillance strategy was developed where

0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:43.520
<v Speaker 4>the strategy became find out where the current cases of

0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:50.600
<v Speaker 4>smallpox are go there, give priority to vaccinating people in

0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:56.680
<v Speaker 4>those households and that village and nearby villages, so called

0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.640
<v Speaker 4>ring vaccination, because if you could do that, you could

0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.560
<v Speaker 4>stop the virus from spreading to other people. That was

0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.760
<v Speaker 4>a much more efficient way of getting after the virus

0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:13.160
<v Speaker 4>to stop transmission. Because now you're looking to vaccinate three

0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.320
<v Speaker 4>four five percent of the population rather than eighty percent

0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:17.040
<v Speaker 4>of the population.

0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:20.440
<v Speaker 1>It's like you draw a circle, a big circle around

0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.280
<v Speaker 1>the village where the infection is and you vaccinate everybody

0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:27.080
<v Speaker 1>inside that circle. So it's like you're surrounding the virus

0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:28.679
<v Speaker 1>with immune people.

0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.920
<v Speaker 4>That's exactly what you're doing. And the radius of that

0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.240
<v Speaker 4>circle was at least five miles.

0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.399
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you have your information right, you have your

0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.800
<v Speaker 1>epidemiological surveillance, you have your your ring on a map.

0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:44.160
<v Speaker 1>What do you do?

0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:49.080
<v Speaker 4>We then come back with several other vaccinators and have

0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:53.040
<v Speaker 4>a plan to assign different groups to go to each

0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:58.080
<v Speaker 4>of these villages and make sure that everyone there is vaccinated.

0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:00.119
<v Speaker 1>And you just show up in a village where if

0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 1>your briefcase full of a vaccine and say here we are,

0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:05.920
<v Speaker 1>come line up.

0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:10.640
<v Speaker 4>The villagers had had warning, and in fact, we discussed

0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.680
<v Speaker 4>with the village chief and the senior people in the

0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:18.240
<v Speaker 4>village to agree on a mutual time when was most

0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:21.600
<v Speaker 4>convenient for them for us to come back and make

0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.320
<v Speaker 4>sure everybody was vaccinated. It had to give them notice

0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:27.400
<v Speaker 4>in advance, because otherwise, if you just show up, people

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.720
<v Speaker 4>are out on their farms, which could be two or

0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.720
<v Speaker 4>three miles away in many different directions, et cetera.

0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.920
<v Speaker 1>So how long does it take you to with your

0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:38.920
<v Speaker 1>team go to all of the villages inside this ring

0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:40.919
<v Speaker 1>and vaccinate everybody.

0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:44.840
<v Speaker 4>That took a matter of a few days fast, so

0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:48.560
<v Speaker 4>each team only had to go to one or two villages,

0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:50.800
<v Speaker 4>and so we were able to get there in a

0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:53.720
<v Speaker 4>few days and get them vaccinated, and we were able

0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.480
<v Speaker 4>to stop that particular outbreak in only three or four

0:22:57.480 --> 0:22:58.480
<v Speaker 4>weeks max. Wow.

0:22:58.800 --> 0:22:59.439
<v Speaker 1>So it worked.

0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.040
<v Speaker 4>It worked. Not only worked in Sierra Leone, but when

0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:06.840
<v Speaker 4>we sent a telegram back to CDC headquarters to let

0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:10.240
<v Speaker 4>them know what had happened, they were ecstatic. And of

0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:14.919
<v Speaker 4>course this was one of the first big demonstrations of

0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:20.360
<v Speaker 4>the power of this new ring vaccination strategy, and so

0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:26.320
<v Speaker 4>it electrified the entire global smallpox eradication program to see

0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:30.520
<v Speaker 4>that this worked so well in Sierra Leone, which had

0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:31.560
<v Speaker 4>so much smallpox.

0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.119
<v Speaker 1>So we have the good news. What did you do next?

0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:39.000
<v Speaker 1>How long were you in Siri Leone? What happened next?

0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:41.119
<v Speaker 4>Ord? I was in Siri Leone for a total of

0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:41.679
<v Speaker 4>two years.

0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:42.119
<v Speaker 2>That was.

0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:45.240
<v Speaker 4>I left sierri Leone in August of nineteen sixty nine.

0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:50.199
<v Speaker 4>Smallpox was gone from Sierra Leone by April May of

0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:52.240
<v Speaker 4>nineteen sixty nine.

0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:54.160
<v Speaker 1>So by the time you left, you and your team

0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:58.840
<v Speaker 1>had eradicated smallpox from one of the worst affected countries

0:23:58.840 --> 0:23:59.760
<v Speaker 1>in the world.

0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:04.240
<v Speaker 4>And that was a big exclamation point. I was then

0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:10.520
<v Speaker 4>forever optimistic that smallpox was gonna go. It was then

0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:12.879
<v Speaker 4>to me just a matter of time.

0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:18.360
<v Speaker 1>It's really striking to me that we or you, you

0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:24.680
<v Speaker 1>and your colleagues eradicated smallpox more than forty years ago now,

0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:30.720
<v Speaker 1>and we humanity haven't succeeded in eradicating anything else yet.

0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:32.960
<v Speaker 1>I know we're getting close on polio, but we've been

0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:36.080
<v Speaker 1>close on polio for a while, and yes, it's not

0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:39.440
<v Speaker 1>gone yet. Was smallpox unanomaly?

0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:45.960
<v Speaker 4>Yes, smallpox is anominally Unfortunately, nothing else is like smallpox.

0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:51.960
<v Speaker 4>Eradication means you have to get to whatever disease you're

0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:58.840
<v Speaker 4>targeting everywhere wherever it exists. And it's going to exist

0:24:58.960 --> 0:25:01.480
<v Speaker 4>in some places where it's a big problem, people care

0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:04.159
<v Speaker 4>about it, they are motivated to work against it. But

0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:07.120
<v Speaker 4>it's also going to exist in some areas where it's

0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:11.199
<v Speaker 4>a trivial problem, where people have much bigger things to

0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:16.239
<v Speaker 4>worry about than that targeted disease. But you're going to

0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:18.040
<v Speaker 4>have to get them on board as well, because as

0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:22.440
<v Speaker 4>long as it exists, anywhere. It's unsafe for people everywhere.

0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:26.240
<v Speaker 1>Doctor, it was a real delight to talk to you.

0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Let me say thank you for your work. I'm very

0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:31.520
<v Speaker 1>grateful to live in a world with no smallpox.

0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:34.840
<v Speaker 4>Well, thank you, I am too.

0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:39.040
<v Speaker 1>Donald Hopkins is currently the Special Advisor for guinea worm

0:25:39.040 --> 0:25:42.639
<v Speaker 1>Eradication at the Carter Center. Thanks to my guest today

0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:46.280
<v Speaker 1>Gareth Williams and Donald Hopkins. Next week we'll tell the

0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.480
<v Speaker 1>story of the race for the polio vaccine, and we'll

0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:52.560
<v Speaker 1>try to figure out why polio and other viruses have

0:25:52.640 --> 0:25:56.120
<v Speaker 1>turned out to be so much harder to eradicate than smallpox.

0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:00.159
<v Speaker 3>We need to ensure that we have we have a

0:26:00.320 --> 0:26:05.399
<v Speaker 3>full momentum for this last push, the final push to

0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:10.360
<v Speaker 3>reach that last child in that last village of these areas.

0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:14.359
<v Speaker 1>Incubation is a co production of Pushkin Industries and Ruby

0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:19.119
<v Speaker 1>Studio at iHeartMedia. It's produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang, Ariela Markowitz,

0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:22.679
<v Speaker 1>and Amy Gaines McQuaid. Our editors are Julia Barton and

0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:27.080
<v Speaker 1>Karen Schakerjie Mastering by Anne Pope, fact checking by Joseph Fridman.

0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Our executive producers are Katherine Gerardeau and Matt Romano. I'm

0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Jacob Goldstein. Thanks for listening.