WEBVTT - Fixing Uber’s Broken Culture 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.436 Pushkin. I recently talked with Francis Frye and Anne Morris. 0:00:24.756 --> 0:00:27.636 I'm Francis Frye. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School, 0:00:28.556 --> 0:00:30.956 and I'm married to Anne. I'm Anne Morris. 0:00:30.996 --> 0:00:35.076 I'm a company builder and a leadership coach, and the 0:00:35.156 --> 0:00:39.356 marriage is mutual and consensual. Thank goodness, we're married to 0:00:39.356 --> 0:00:39.756 each other. 0:00:40.276 --> 0:00:43.236 Francis and Ann also work together. They are the co 0:00:43.316 --> 0:00:47.436 founders of a training and consulting company called the Leadership Consortium. 0:00:47.836 --> 0:00:50.996 They specialize in helping leaders build trust. They also co 0:00:51.076 --> 0:00:55.396 host a podcast called Fixable. And there is this particular 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:58.236 project that they worked on. In fact, it's the project 0:00:58.236 --> 0:01:01.276 that inspired them to start their company. And I found 0:01:01.276 --> 0:01:04.756 this project so surprising and so illuminating that I wanted 0:01:04.796 --> 0:01:06.716 to have them on the show to talk about it. 0:01:11.756 --> 0:01:14.756 I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is What's your Problem? And Francis 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:17.316 and Ann are here today to tell the story of 0:01:17.356 --> 0:01:21.596 their work with Uber. It starts back in twenty seventeen, 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:25.836 what was maybe the lowest point for the company. Francis 0:01:25.836 --> 0:01:28.516 and Anne got involved when a Harvard Business School a 0:01:28.556 --> 0:01:31.196 lum who was working at Uber came to Francis and 0:01:31.236 --> 0:01:33.396 said the company needed her help. 0:01:34.636 --> 0:01:37.036 He said, will you come and meet my CEO, Travis 0:01:37.116 --> 0:01:41.196 Kalnik And I said no. My first instinct was no, 0:01:41.796 --> 0:01:44.476 and I was like, I read the newspapers. It sounds terrible. 0:01:45.156 --> 0:01:48.436 And then she said, please, as a personal favor, he 0:01:48.556 --> 0:01:51.156 is not the person that you're reading about. Will you 0:01:51.196 --> 0:01:54.116 come and meet with him? And so it was entirely 0:01:54.316 --> 0:01:57.716 as a favor that I flew out to meet Travis. 0:01:57.796 --> 0:02:00.916 And what was before you met him? What was your impression, 0:02:01.476 --> 0:02:03.636 not having met him, of Travis Kalvinick. 0:02:04.036 --> 0:02:08.236 It sounded like he didn't care, was out of touch, 0:02:08.756 --> 0:02:13.836 created a very horrific climate for women and not awesome 0:02:13.956 --> 0:02:17.596 for others as well. So we help good people do 0:02:17.716 --> 0:02:21.756 hard things, but we don't help bad people. And so 0:02:22.236 --> 0:02:23.516 I was like, I'm not going to work with him, 0:02:23.516 --> 0:02:25.196 but I'll come out and meet him as a favorite 0:02:25.196 --> 0:02:25.436 to you. 0:02:25.996 --> 0:02:28.036 So you go fly out and what happens. 0:02:28.196 --> 0:02:31.476 Yes, it was a two hour meeting. It lasted three days, 0:02:32.556 --> 0:02:43.436 and I found him thoughtful, rigorous, open, just I adored him. 0:02:43.916 --> 0:02:45.516 By the end, I was down for the count. 0:02:45.836 --> 0:02:48.756 So that is truly surprising. 0:02:49.716 --> 0:02:53.676 You're not kidding because he came across very the two 0:02:53.716 --> 0:02:56.876 things I really like are rigor and optimism and he 0:02:56.956 --> 0:03:02.636 was super rigorous and super optimistic. And then he said, 0:03:03.236 --> 0:03:06.516 and I need help. The last company I ran had 0:03:06.596 --> 0:03:07.316 eight people. 0:03:07.836 --> 0:03:09.076 And how big is Uber at this point? 0:03:09.316 --> 0:03:10.196 Thirteen thousand? 0:03:10.676 --> 0:03:14.476 Wow? Okay, and so so you're in. 0:03:14.876 --> 0:03:17.196 Well he was like, you know, you need to come 0:03:17.196 --> 0:03:18.916 and work here full time. And I was like, I'm 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:22.836 never leaving Harvard, but I'll consult for you. He's like, no, no, no, 0:03:22.876 --> 0:03:26.236 we need all of you. So I left there and 0:03:26.276 --> 0:03:29.236 came home and asked, you know, told Anne about it 0:03:29.276 --> 0:03:32.316 and was like, what do you think about my taking 0:03:32.316 --> 0:03:37.076 a leave from HBS and going and working there full time? 0:03:37.476 --> 0:03:38.876 And and what did you say? 0:03:39.196 --> 0:03:41.956 That's a ridiculous idea? 0:03:42.836 --> 0:03:43.156 Go on? 0:03:43.916 --> 0:03:47.436 I mean, I think we sat with it for a 0:03:47.476 --> 0:03:50.476 good week or so. But where we got to is 0:03:50.516 --> 0:03:54.636 if we can make it work at Uber, and if 0:03:54.676 --> 0:03:57.276 we can make some of these ideas that we're kind 0:03:57.276 --> 0:04:01.236 of batting around, if we can really test them at Uber, 0:04:01.316 --> 0:04:04.116 and if they can work there, then they can work anywhere. 0:04:04.716 --> 0:04:08.916 These kinds of issues tend to I don't think I'm 0:04:09.316 --> 0:04:14.516 stating it that paralyze some entrepreneurs who are building great 0:04:14.556 --> 0:04:18.676 companies and get really stuck on this stuff, and so 0:04:18.716 --> 0:04:23.076 the opportunity to show the world not only how to 0:04:23.076 --> 0:04:25.396 make progress on these issues, but that you can make 0:04:25.436 --> 0:04:28.636 progress on these issues was also super energizing. Yeah. 0:04:28.636 --> 0:04:32.076 So okay, so you take the job and like, what 0:04:32.276 --> 0:04:35.476 is the problem you're setting out to fix? Eduber or problems? 0:04:35.676 --> 0:04:39.956 Yeah, so two sides. The problems at any organization are 0:04:40.076 --> 0:04:44.156 always only two things, achievement and or sentiment? 0:04:46.236 --> 0:04:49.156 Is the business working and do people feel good about it? 0:04:49.196 --> 0:04:50.276 Is that what that means? Yes? 0:04:50.876 --> 0:04:54.916 And it had both problems, huh. And the sentiment was 0:04:55.116 --> 0:05:01.076 really rough and the achievement was also they were magnificent 0:05:01.116 --> 0:05:03.676 in some ways, but this was the era when costs 0:05:03.716 --> 0:05:04.996 were greater than revenue. 0:05:05.396 --> 0:05:06.356 They were losing money. 0:05:06.516 --> 0:05:10.756 Yeah, And that's that can seduce you into thinking all 0:05:10.876 --> 0:05:14.156 kinds of things that are upside down are right side up. 0:05:14.436 --> 0:05:16.396 And so that's where the strategy. 0:05:16.156 --> 0:05:18.956 Going really fast? Right, is that complicated Silicon Valley thing 0:05:18.996 --> 0:05:22.196 of like incredible growth, but like they're selling every dollar 0:05:22.236 --> 0:05:24.436 for seventy five cents, and lots of people it turns out, 0:05:24.676 --> 0:05:26.396 will buy a dollar if it costs seventy five. 0:05:26.276 --> 0:05:28.636 Cents, yes, yeah, And I don't know if it's so complicated. 0:05:28.916 --> 0:05:32.116 I don't think it's that complicated either. I think I 0:05:32.156 --> 0:05:35.836 think that if you get venture capitalists that are willing 0:05:35.916 --> 0:05:38.316 to take their money and put it in the pockets 0:05:38.316 --> 0:05:42.436 of riders, it turns out that can last a long time. 0:05:43.156 --> 0:05:45.196 So but that's what we went in is sort of 0:05:45.236 --> 0:05:47.916 we when we talk about study the achievement. 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:51.076 Achievement problem is they're losing money. What specifically was the 0:05:51.116 --> 0:05:51.996 sentiment problem? 0:05:52.196 --> 0:05:57.516 Oh goodness, the It was a culture of I'll give 0:05:57.556 --> 0:05:59.876 you an example. If one person was going to give 0:05:59.916 --> 0:06:03.316 someone else feedback at uber, it was an arms race 0:06:03.356 --> 0:06:07.196 of how cutting the feedback could be. So they were mean, 0:06:08.036 --> 0:06:11.596 they were they were Yeah, there was a but but 0:06:11.796 --> 0:06:15.756 not with the intention of cruelty. But yes, it came 0:06:15.796 --> 0:06:18.596 across as cruel it. Also, you know a lot of 0:06:18.636 --> 0:06:21.076 people had their first job here, and so when I 0:06:21.116 --> 0:06:23.836 got there and I would talk to women in particular, 0:06:24.836 --> 0:06:29.316 the climate that they were enduring was something like the following. 0:06:30.236 --> 0:06:34.996 Woman's the only woman on an engineering team. She's working 0:06:35.036 --> 0:06:37.356 really hard. She's going to stay late to work on something. 0:06:37.396 --> 0:06:39.836 She asks a colleague if he'll stay late with her, 0:06:39.916 --> 0:06:43.116 and he'll say, yeah, as long as you sleep with me. 0:06:44.596 --> 0:06:48.956 She reacts and he says, just kidding. You know that, 0:06:49.156 --> 0:06:51.956 like the tyranny of just kidding. There was a lot 0:06:52.036 --> 0:06:57.596 of just kidding there, and so no one had taught 0:06:57.676 --> 0:07:02.436 anyone how to manage and how to lead. So if 0:07:02.476 --> 0:07:06.556 I mean there were a thousand problems, literally one thousand complaints, 0:07:07.356 --> 0:07:10.116 and more than ninety percent of them had to do 0:07:10.156 --> 0:07:13.836 with the interaction between someone and their manager. There were 0:07:13.876 --> 0:07:16.876 three thousand managers, so they were either three thousand bad 0:07:16.916 --> 0:07:21.556 people or something systematically was going on that we were 0:07:21.596 --> 0:07:23.876 not setting anyone up for success. 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:28.036 So when do you start wearing the Uber shirt every day? 0:07:28.996 --> 0:07:30.956 So I got there and I was you know, Anne 0:07:30.996 --> 0:07:34.756 and I were excited, and I was really proud of 0:07:34.796 --> 0:07:37.356 the mission. I was proud of the work ethic. I 0:07:37.436 --> 0:07:42.476 was proud of the intelligence of everyone, and so I 0:07:42.596 --> 0:07:44.436 was proud to be there. And I got there and 0:07:44.996 --> 0:07:47.396 everyone was ashamed to work there. There were all the 0:07:47.436 --> 0:07:52.476 newspaper things like delete Uber, and there was videos on 0:07:52.516 --> 0:07:55.876 the web of the CEO that weren't good, and so 0:07:56.556 --> 0:07:59.116 people were embarrassed. They wouldn't when they got into an 0:07:59.156 --> 0:08:01.116 Uber car, they wouldn't admit that they to the driver 0:08:01.196 --> 0:08:01.956 they worked at Uber. 0:08:03.076 --> 0:08:05.676 Oh so you're saying people who worked at Uber would 0:08:05.716 --> 0:08:07.996 get into an Uber and wouldn't tell the driver they 0:08:07.996 --> 0:08:10.276 worked at Uber because driver would think they're a bad 0:08:10.316 --> 0:08:11.756 person for working at Uber. 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:15.636 Yes, they would. They stopped going to parties because the 0:08:15.636 --> 0:08:18.476 topic of conversation was always Uber and it was embarrassing 0:08:18.516 --> 0:08:22.636 for them. So they had real shame. And so what 0:08:22.796 --> 0:08:26.876 I said is, I'm so proud of what we're all 0:08:26.916 --> 0:08:30.036 intending to do. I'm going to wear an uber t 0:08:30.156 --> 0:08:33.716 shirt until everyone else regains his pride because there used 0:08:33.756 --> 0:08:35.996 to be the pride in the organization. 0:08:36.156 --> 0:08:39.196 And so you're wearing it Monday to Friday, you're wearing 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:41.716 it Saturday and Sunday. And tell me, tell me as 0:08:41.756 --> 0:08:42.836 the partner of the person. 0:08:43.836 --> 0:08:46.876 Yeah, this wasn't an ideal part of the commitment. I'm 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:48.716 not sure you had. I did not clear it with 0:08:48.756 --> 0:08:52.276 this many moves ahead and a chessboard. Now, yeah, there 0:08:52.276 --> 0:08:54.876 were a couple of awkward family moments. We went to 0:08:54.916 --> 0:08:58.756 a fancy party where you had to dress up and 0:08:58.996 --> 0:09:00.636 Francis woarren uber T shirt. 0:09:00.716 --> 0:09:04.396 Underneath a jacket. But indeed I did no. I promised 0:09:04.436 --> 0:09:06.276 to wear any like you could see it like, ah, 0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:09.636 for sure, for sure the commitment was real. 0:09:12.916 --> 0:09:16.636 So okay, we've got the shirt, We've got the problems. 0:09:17.236 --> 0:09:20.676 After the break, solving the problems and getting to the 0:09:20.676 --> 0:09:24.516 point where Francis finally feels like she can stop wearing 0:09:24.556 --> 0:09:34.836 an Uber shirt every single day. Now back to the show. So, okay, 0:09:34.916 --> 0:09:37.836 you got your shirt, you're fired up. What's the first 0:09:37.916 --> 0:09:41.556 sort of key thing you do to try and make 0:09:42.276 --> 0:09:44.276 people like Uber better? 0:09:44.916 --> 0:09:48.436 Yes, So the first thing was to teach the entire 0:09:48.596 --> 0:09:51.916 organization how to build and more importantly in their case, 0:09:52.036 --> 0:09:54.596 rebuild trust and how to do it quickly. So in 0:09:54.636 --> 0:09:59.356 the presence of trust, everything goes faster and higher. So 0:09:59.956 --> 0:10:04.796 if you get trust, nobody's going to relitigate the decision afterwards, 0:10:04.796 --> 0:10:06.956 you get to stay on one things, and in the 0:10:06.996 --> 0:10:08.436 absence of trust, people are going to ask you to 0:10:08.436 --> 0:10:11.916 compromise way more than you should otherwise. So when we're 0:10:11.996 --> 0:10:15.036 teaching about trust, what we're doing is delivering on the 0:10:15.076 --> 0:10:18.956 promise that you can go faster and further. So our 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:23.396 collaboration will be better, our innovation will be better. In 0:10:23.436 --> 0:10:27.116 the presence of trust, everything is better. In the absence 0:10:27.156 --> 0:10:32.556 of trust, it's a miserable place to be. It starts 0:10:32.636 --> 0:10:35.596 it stops. We go one step forward, two steps back. 0:10:36.396 --> 0:10:40.596 So trust is we find trust is the foundation for 0:10:40.756 --> 0:10:41.836 all human progress. 0:10:42.356 --> 0:10:46.316 So that's the abstraction. What is a specific thing you 0:10:46.396 --> 0:10:47.316 do to that end? 0:10:48.036 --> 0:10:52.036 Well, you determine is trust breaking down for one of 0:10:52.116 --> 0:10:55.196 three reasons. Turns out there's three pillars of trust, and 0:10:55.836 --> 0:10:59.916 in Uber's case, the reason was empathy at every turn. 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:03.836 So you can be awesome, but if you're not empathetic, 0:11:04.076 --> 0:11:05.076 we're not going to trust you. 0:11:05.316 --> 0:11:07.316 And I mean, you say there's three pillars of trust, 0:11:07.596 --> 0:11:09.956 I got to say, okay, if empathy is on, what 0:11:10.036 --> 0:11:10.596 are the other two? 0:11:11.196 --> 0:11:14.116 Logic and authenticity. 0:11:15.156 --> 0:11:17.156 So if you think about it in terms of a 0:11:17.196 --> 0:11:20.676 person's relationship to their manager, they are thinking, does what 0:11:20.716 --> 0:11:24.516 my boss says make sense? Is it logical? Is my 0:11:24.636 --> 0:11:27.756 boss a phony? Are they just giving me a smoke 0:11:27.796 --> 0:11:30.636 screen that's authenticity? And does my boss care about me? 0:11:30.676 --> 0:11:33.676 I mean it's not exactly okay, and care about my 0:11:33.796 --> 0:11:36.356 success in this job. 0:11:37.436 --> 0:11:42.996 And so the people at Uber, in your estimation, in 0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:48.076 your finding, were logical and authentic. They just didn't care 0:11:48.116 --> 0:11:49.836 about the people they worked with. 0:11:50.276 --> 0:11:53.516 And it was for the employees, it was also for 0:11:53.556 --> 0:12:00.636 the regulators. It was also for the investors, so they are. 0:12:00.556 --> 0:12:03.956 Caring about the regulators. Was sort of Uber's brand, right, 0:12:04.036 --> 0:12:05.996 like that was I don't quite want to say their 0:12:05.996 --> 0:12:08.796 secret sauce, but kind of right. Well, it was going 0:12:08.836 --> 0:12:11.396 into cities where, you know, to be fair to Uber, 0:12:11.436 --> 0:12:16.476 it seemed like the taxi cab cartels had the regulators 0:12:16.556 --> 0:12:18.156 kind of in their pockets in a lot of places. 0:12:18.196 --> 0:12:20.956 So in a way, being not empathetic to the regulators 0:12:22.036 --> 0:12:23.156 there was a logic to it. 0:12:23.116 --> 0:12:28.236 From absolutely, and so the question is is what got 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:32.156 you here, what's going to take you there? And they 0:12:32.196 --> 0:12:35.756 were magnificent at not being empathetic to the regulators. And 0:12:35.756 --> 0:12:39.636 that's spilled over to many aspects of the organization. 0:12:40.276 --> 0:12:43.196 So you've identified now in more detail. Okay, this is 0:12:43.236 --> 0:12:46.036 what's wrong. How do you fix it? 0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:51.356 Yeah, So two things. One, we created a curriculum, So 0:12:51.436 --> 0:12:55.116 I got friends of mine from Harvard and we created 0:12:55.156 --> 0:12:58.556 a remote curriculum. Half of it leadership, half of its 0:12:58.556 --> 0:13:02.036 strategy to teach people how to do things. And it 0:13:02.076 --> 0:13:05.076 was for the three thousand managers. We thought, you know, 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:10.996 maybe five hundred people would show up. People took it. 0:13:11.396 --> 0:13:14.476 Six thousand out of three thousand mandagers, so all of 0:13:14.516 --> 0:13:17.436 the managers basically and a lot of other people. Yes, Okay, 0:13:17.556 --> 0:13:20.956 that's interesting, Like it seems like the problem is everybody 0:13:21.076 --> 0:13:26.436 was being mean essentially to each other. How does like 0:13:26.676 --> 0:13:29.516 online courses actually get people to not be mean? 0:13:29.716 --> 0:13:29.796 Like? 0:13:29.836 --> 0:13:32.316 It seems weird to me. Maybe I've just had bad 0:13:32.356 --> 0:13:34.276 online courses in my work life. 0:13:34.716 --> 0:13:36.276 Well, let me let me, let me add a little 0:13:36.316 --> 0:13:37.716 let me add a little context, which I think is 0:13:37.796 --> 0:13:40.796 material here into a lot of the organizations we work in. 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:45.476 It was very clear to the organization that plan A 0:13:46.156 --> 0:13:51.116 wasn't working, Yeah, and that they had not collectively built 0:13:51.156 --> 0:13:55.276 a culture where people were thriving. And so the motivation 0:13:55.796 --> 0:13:59.276 for behavior change is partly why we like. We like 0:13:59.356 --> 0:14:02.116 working with organizations that are at this point in their 0:14:02.156 --> 0:14:04.436 life cycle there's some kind of crisis because people are 0:14:04.436 --> 0:14:08.756 really leaning into changing and are very in touch with 0:14:08.796 --> 0:14:09.956 the potential payoff. 0:14:10.316 --> 0:14:12.796 Huh. Is there a particular time you remember and when 0:14:12.836 --> 0:14:15.316 you were talking to Francis about what was happening, Like 0:14:15.476 --> 0:14:18.196 any specific conversations come to mind. 0:14:18.756 --> 0:14:21.636 Yeah, Francis had do you remember the robot we had 0:14:21.636 --> 0:14:24.356 experimented with an It was actually called the Wanatron. It's 0:14:24.556 --> 0:14:28.756 difficult product name, but the Wanatron was the height of 0:14:29.356 --> 0:14:32.676 a human sitting in a chair essentially, so it would 0:14:32.676 --> 0:14:34.876 wheel up to the dinner table. Francis would join us 0:14:34.916 --> 0:14:36.116 for dinner, and then we would. 0:14:37.876 --> 0:14:40.036 And it had a little like a like an iPad 0:14:40.076 --> 0:14:41.436 for a face or something. 0:14:41.076 --> 0:14:45.236 Exactly, so Francis would could could be there friends. 0:14:46.196 --> 0:14:51.556 Yeah, it would take maybe three minutes for you and 0:14:51.596 --> 0:14:53.996 the boys to stop interacting with like a robot, and 0:14:53.996 --> 0:14:55.276 it was as if I was there. 0:14:55.396 --> 0:15:00.516 Yeah. I do remember coming home, you know, a little 0:15:00.556 --> 0:15:03.756 bit late at night, keeping the babysitter a little late, 0:15:04.476 --> 0:15:08.996 cats away Jacob, you know, uh, and pulling into the driveway, 0:15:09.236 --> 0:15:12.956 the wanatron was just waiting in the waiting in the window. 0:15:15.076 --> 0:15:17.796 And but you were super excited. I mean I can 0:15:17.956 --> 0:15:23.076 I can remember the image. You were super excited and 0:15:23.236 --> 0:15:25.276 you had just finished a class and it had gone 0:15:25.996 --> 0:15:29.076 really well, and you can tell, I mean, you can 0:15:29.156 --> 0:15:32.556 tell in the classroom when there's an the energy of 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:36.076 engagement and that can get really infectious, even in these 0:15:36.796 --> 0:15:42.396 digital classrooms. And it had worked, and you basically were like, 0:15:42.436 --> 0:15:44.516 you know, honey, I think we're onto something. 0:15:45.316 --> 0:15:47.796 That's when I knew it was it was fixable. 0:15:48.356 --> 0:15:53.116 So at some point Travis Kalanick gets I don't know 0:15:53.116 --> 0:15:55.476 if he was fired pushed out. He definitely gets pushed 0:15:55.476 --> 0:15:56.436 out of the company. 0:15:56.196 --> 0:15:56.756 Nine days in. 0:15:57.356 --> 0:16:00.556 So say that again. Nine days in, nine days after 0:16:00.596 --> 0:16:02.956 you took the full time job, he sweet talked to 0:16:02.956 --> 0:16:04.396 you and that he was gone. 0:16:04.716 --> 0:16:07.316 It wasn't his idea to leave, No, it was it 0:16:07.396 --> 0:16:12.796 was really of a sudden and a surprise. And he 0:16:12.876 --> 0:16:16.796 said to me, he said, you know, in my absence, 0:16:17.436 --> 0:16:20.396 please do this act in the best because I was like, 0:16:20.396 --> 0:16:21.516 what can I do to be helpful to you? And 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:23.156 he said, you can be helpful to me by doing 0:16:23.236 --> 0:16:26.396 things in the best interest of Uber. And so that's 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:26.796 what I did. 0:16:28.276 --> 0:16:31.156 So let's talk about what else you did. There's there's 0:16:31.196 --> 0:16:35.156 the course. There was one detail that I read about 0:16:35.756 --> 0:16:38.236 that was really interesting to me, and it was about 0:16:38.836 --> 0:16:42.996 how people behaved in meetings. Yeah, tell me about that. 0:16:43.436 --> 0:16:47.516 Yeah, And I think this was illustrative of the large 0:16:47.556 --> 0:16:51.076 empathy wobble we would say at the organization. So in 0:16:51.116 --> 0:16:55.636 the senior team, it was not a safe place. And 0:16:55.716 --> 0:16:59.116 by that I mean when people were speaking, they were 0:16:59.196 --> 0:17:02.036 like nervous and looking around and I. 0:17:01.956 --> 0:17:05.436 Couldn't been in like c Sweitel people even in C suite. 0:17:05.876 --> 0:17:07.956 No, no, no, even in C suite. Then what I 0:17:07.996 --> 0:17:13.436 found out is that they were texting one another about 0:17:13.476 --> 0:17:15.116 the person who was speaking. 0:17:16.596 --> 0:17:19.116 In the room, in the room, and they all knew 0:17:19.156 --> 0:17:20.196 that they were doing it. 0:17:20.116 --> 0:17:22.596 And they all knew it, which was creating, Like, if 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:25.236 you want to create an environment that's not safe, just 0:17:25.276 --> 0:17:28.796 start doing that. That's that guaranteed to make it not safe. 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:33.356 That it was shocking, super common you came to discover. 0:17:33.156 --> 0:17:34.156 Yeah, super common. 0:17:34.156 --> 0:17:35.716 Wait, and super tech industry. 0:17:37.036 --> 0:17:40.156 Everybody does that and everybody knows everybody's doing that. 0:17:40.596 --> 0:17:43.436 I don't think that's an unfair statement. It was at 0:17:43.436 --> 0:17:44.276 that time, at. 0:17:44.156 --> 0:17:45.316 That time, it. 0:17:46.756 --> 0:17:48.756 That's so weird, it's so weird. 0:17:48.796 --> 0:17:50.556 I have to say I had exactly the reaction that 0:17:50.596 --> 0:17:53.436 you did. So set a norm because I was facilitating 0:17:53.476 --> 0:17:55.076 the senior team. The board asked me to do it 0:17:55.116 --> 0:17:58.756 in between the CEOs, and I said, for our meetings, 0:17:58.756 --> 0:18:02.196 we're gonna have technology off in a way. Now we 0:18:02.276 --> 0:18:02.716 do that in the. 0:18:02.676 --> 0:18:05.436 Harvard classroom, meaning no phones, no laptops. 0:18:05.676 --> 0:18:10.196 It turned out that when you remove the distraction, we 0:18:10.476 --> 0:18:14.276 actually got an unprecedented amount of work done. Like we did. 0:18:14.476 --> 0:18:17.956 We I don't think Uber ever got more done than 0:18:18.036 --> 0:18:24.036 over that summer, so it started an incredible improvement trajectory. 0:18:24.196 --> 0:18:26.516 So I'll give you another example of something that we did. 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:29.156 They were not very good at giving each other feedback, 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:32.716 and that I know as an operations professor, if I 0:18:32.836 --> 0:18:36.356 give you effective feedback, you will improve at a dramatically 0:18:36.396 --> 0:18:41.036 improved rate. So my ability to give you feedback is 0:18:41.156 --> 0:18:43.836 actually going to be a great, big influence on your improvement. 0:18:44.916 --> 0:18:47.676 The way they gave feedback often made people worse. So 0:18:47.796 --> 0:18:49.756 not only did it not make them better, well once 0:18:49.796 --> 0:18:52.756 we taught them how to do it, and not only 0:18:52.796 --> 0:18:55.356 did it help other people improve, but it improved the 0:18:55.396 --> 0:18:57.076 culture what we did. 0:18:57.716 --> 0:19:03.356 Is there an example of helping people give better feedback? 0:19:03.596 --> 0:19:03.796 Oh? 0:19:03.996 --> 0:19:06.396 Yeah, yeah, like one specific thing. 0:19:06.716 --> 0:19:11.276 Sure. So if I want you to improve the ideal 0:19:11.396 --> 0:19:15.876 ratio of positive reinforcement, that is, do more of this 0:19:16.516 --> 0:19:21.076 to constructive advice, do it differently. The ideal ratio is 0:19:21.156 --> 0:19:22.956 five to one, huh. 0:19:23.396 --> 0:19:25.636 So you say five good things that the person did 0:19:25.636 --> 0:19:27.476 and one thing they could improve on, and. 0:19:27.436 --> 0:19:32.996 At uber it was zero to ten. And so by 0:19:33.036 --> 0:19:38.636 doing that it unleashed all of this amazing improvement and 0:19:39.476 --> 0:19:42.516 we were catching people doing things right in sincere and 0:19:42.556 --> 0:19:45.116 specific ways. It can't be performed at ever you lose 0:19:45.156 --> 0:19:50.196 that authenticity thing. So the culture improved and the improvement improved, 0:19:50.236 --> 0:19:52.276 and this happens overnight. 0:19:52.996 --> 0:19:57.356 Was there a moment when you felt like you had 0:19:57.396 --> 0:19:58.916 done it? Was there a moment when you took off 0:19:58.956 --> 0:20:01.196 the shirt? Yeah? 0:20:01.276 --> 0:20:04.916 I took off the shirt nine months in. 0:20:05.276 --> 0:20:09.636 And was there some thing? Was there? What was the 0:20:09.716 --> 0:20:12.556 last thing? What was the thing that why didn't you 0:20:12.556 --> 0:20:14.076 take it off eight months? What was the last thing 0:20:14.076 --> 0:20:15.956 you had to do to take off the shirt? 0:20:16.956 --> 0:20:17.156 Yeah? 0:20:17.156 --> 0:20:19.556 I mean the thing that was most gratifying to you, 0:20:20.716 --> 0:20:24.636 if I recall, is seeing uber t shirts on this 0:20:24.756 --> 0:20:26.876 everywhere of San Francisco. 0:20:26.396 --> 0:20:30.996 Everywhere, everywhere you just walk in, and it would have 0:20:31.076 --> 0:20:34.836 to be like a nighttime horror story to tell people 0:20:34.836 --> 0:20:37.236 what it used to be like, because you couldn't imagine 0:20:37.236 --> 0:20:38.436 it being like that anymore. 0:20:38.716 --> 0:20:40.516 You didn't need to wear the shirt anymore because everybody 0:20:40.516 --> 0:20:41.236 else was worthing. 0:20:41.036 --> 0:20:43.596 Everybody else did everyone. And that, by the way, is 0:20:43.596 --> 0:20:45.796 when I stopped working their full time because I also 0:20:45.796 --> 0:20:47.876 didn't need to be there full time anymore. 0:20:48.076 --> 0:20:50.116 And what'd you think when what do you think when 0:20:50.156 --> 0:20:54.636 Francis first took off the shirt, there was Jacob. 0:20:54.676 --> 0:20:56.036 There was great relief. 0:20:57.476 --> 0:21:01.436 As her spouse, as her collaborator, which I think it 0:21:01.476 --> 0:21:03.636 was by the end of this story that you had 0:21:03.676 --> 0:21:06.156 sold me, and about midway through that you were really 0:21:06.196 --> 0:21:08.956 putting the pressure on we should go and do this together. 0:21:10.276 --> 0:21:11.196 I was intrigued. 0:21:11.836 --> 0:21:14.116 Tell me more about that. So you're saying this story 0:21:14.956 --> 0:21:17.756 when Francis was working at uber was when and you 0:21:17.876 --> 0:21:20.596 really decided that you and Francis should go work together 0:21:21.356 --> 0:21:22.116 as consultants. 0:21:22.236 --> 0:21:27.316 Yeah, Well, we started a company that was very informed 0:21:27.316 --> 0:21:31.636 by this experience, that was focused on removing barriers to 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:36.596 impact and advancement for people, particularly in tech, and the 0:21:36.716 --> 0:21:40.916 mission has expanded and so that and particularly. 0:21:40.396 --> 0:21:43.516 For women, people of color, LGBTQ, like the people for 0:21:43.596 --> 0:21:47.396 whom the harms were most likely to be done. What 0:21:47.436 --> 0:21:49.476 we decided to do is instead of going and helping 0:21:49.516 --> 0:21:52.236 one company at a time, we started a company where 0:21:52.236 --> 0:21:55.996 we could bring people in and help many companies at once, 0:21:56.396 --> 0:22:01.996 and that exists until today, all focusing on the education part, 0:22:02.076 --> 0:22:10.636 and has been enormously successful in unleashing individuals and the organizations. 0:22:12.716 --> 0:22:15.036 We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 0:22:22.156 --> 0:22:24.276 That's the end of the ads now we're going back 0:22:24.276 --> 0:22:26.316 to the show. Let's do a lightning round. 0:22:26.916 --> 0:22:27.516 Let's do it. 0:22:27.836 --> 0:22:32.356 Okay, what's one tip for teaching your kid how to fish? 0:22:32.436 --> 0:22:35.916 If the birds aren't there, go come back another day. 0:22:36.556 --> 0:22:40.516 A good one, because the birds eat the fish, and 0:22:40.556 --> 0:22:43.196