1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: Tell me the spelling of your person last night, my descendant. 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 2: I guess that is how you want to be titled. 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 3: Sure. My first name is Carrie C. A R R 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 3: I E. My last name is Nolty n Olte, and 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 3: I am a descendant of Rebecca Briggs murder victim. And 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 3: this is a ghost story. 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: It's creepy. 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 4: It is a ghost story. 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: Do you believe in ghosts? If you've heard my audio 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: book The Ghost Club, you know that I do. And 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: you know why. This season of tenfold More Wicked is 12 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: a ghost story set in sixteen hundreds, New England, and 13 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: it's about a real death where the star witness and 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: a murder trial was a spirit. 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 5: He describes feeling some weight on his blanket, like some heaviness, 16 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 5: like something there, and it. 17 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: Woke him up. And when he woke up, he saw 18 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: what he thought was a spectral figure. He saw a 19 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: light and he said, what's you know? 20 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 3: Who's there? 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: Our story features a man who went on trial for 22 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: murder thanks to a ghost that hinted that it knew 23 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: who committed murder. 24 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 6: I think you have the sort of the seeds or 25 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 6: the ground for people to run around saying I am 26 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 6: like the fire or whisperer right, or I can interpret 27 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 6: the dreams of people and help solve crimes based on 28 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 6: what people say happen in their dreams. 29 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: This is the story about bad forensics, about a possible 30 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice, and some big misunderstandings about fire. 31 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 5: Just because you've used an accelerate doesn't mean that it's 32 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 5: like the magic sauce to annihilate everything you're trying to burn. 33 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: This is the story of a family scarred by past trauma. 34 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: You do get these kind of instances where families kind 35 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: of tune themselves and any men that can kill anyone else, 36 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: And you do get these relationships between mothers and sons 37 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: where it does spill over into violence. 38 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 1: It's about a family forced into a complicated situation where 39 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: maybe murder was the only way out. 40 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 5: He's saying something like, I won't tell if you don't. 41 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 5: I won't bring up this if you don't bring up that. 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 5: So that was conspiratorial. There must be something that each 43 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 5: is trying to protect of the other. 44 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: Was this murder or was it something else? 45 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 7: Even the nineteenth century, in case I looked at there's 46 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 7: been so many cases of individuals dying by being set 47 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 7: on fire, and you know it's always accidental. You know, 48 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 7: they've got too close to a candle, They've got too 49 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 7: close to the fire. They've been cooking, and a spark 50 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 7: has set fire to their clothing. 51 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 3: I think that she was stabbed. I think he set 52 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 3: her on fire to cover. 53 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 5: Up the wound. Rebecca Cornell is not portrayed as being 54 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 5: particularly stable either. 55 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 3: She sounds like she's suffered from depression and suicidal thought. 56 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 4: Tur itself sad, It. 57 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 3: Is very sad. 58 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: Everyone has a different opinion. But we'll meet forensic experts 59 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: who think they have the answers and they might just 60 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: disagree with history. 61 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 5: So it is a story that you you could hear 62 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 5: the same information and still come away with a different idea. 63 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 5: And it's so far back that it's not like we're 64 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 5: going to go back and find the answers, but it's 65 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 5: you know, the questions are always there. 66 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a crime historian and the author 67 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: of The Ghost Club, American Sherlock and All That Is Wicked. 68 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: And this is our eleventh season of tenfold More Wicked. 69 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: This is our oldest story yet. I know I said 70 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: that last season when we were in mid seventeen hundreds Virginia. 71 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: But this time we're traveling even further back to Rhode 72 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: Island in sixteen seventy three. Believe it or not, people 73 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: still care about this case. I call this season fire 74 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: and Brimstone. I know, sixteen seventy three already seems like 75 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: so long ago, but for historical context, we need to 76 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: travel back even further to England. Let's talk about the 77 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: origins of the famous Cornell family, as in the Cornell 78 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: University Cornells. The main character of this story is Rebecca Briggs. Cornell. 79 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: Women really play a big role here, and they might 80 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: be the heroes or they might be the villains. Carrie 81 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: Nolty is the family descendant who brought me this story. 82 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: I always need one of those to make tenfold, well tenfold. 83 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: Carrie's from Rebecca's line of the family, the Briggs, not 84 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: Rebecca's husband Thomas Cornell's side, Harry works at Brown University 85 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: and she's a longtime listener, and thankfully she accompanied me 86 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 1: when I visited all of the important locations in this story. 87 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: I finally traced on my dad's side our lineage back 88 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: here to Portsmouth, Rhode Island, and the Cornells and looking 89 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 3: at one of the websites, I think it was Genie 90 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: dot com. It had an entire just paragraphs and paragraphs 91 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: about the family. 92 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: Before this story became a historic Rhode Island murder case, 93 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: the Cornell family had already endured its share of trauma. 94 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: So let's start back in England where Rebecca and Thomas 95 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: Cornell first married. Well, let's start with what you know 96 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: about the Cornell family, because they were a pretty important 97 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: family in. 98 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 4: The northeast, I mean all the way from the sixteen hundreds. 99 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 3: So the Cornells came from Essex, the Essex area, saffron 100 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: Walden in England. They came over in sixteen thirty eight 101 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: thirty nine, and they had plenty of kids by that time, 102 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: and they were still having kids. Actually, I believe that 103 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 3: Rebecca was pregnant and she gave birth to her son 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 3: John when she was here. 105 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 4: So she is initially married to Thomas Cornell seniors. 106 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 3: Oh yes, okay, And they start out in England and 107 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,559 Speaker 3: then they moved to they moved to Boston. And why 108 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 3: do you think they made the move or why did 109 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 3: anybody make them move? 110 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 5: Then? 111 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I mean there was the religious separatists, 112 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 3: so a lot of people would call them Puritans, and 113 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 3: they do kind of fall into that sort of category, 114 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 3: but the Puritans were much more stringent. Like when we 115 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 3: think of Puritans, we think of the people that came 116 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 3: and settled at Plymouth, and that was not them. 117 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: Carrie says that the Cornells came from England to America 118 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: or what would become America during what is known as 119 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: the Great Migration. These were Puritans leaning separatist groups that 120 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: came over. They wanted to worship the way they wanted 121 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: to worship and live in communities that allowed that type 122 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: of worship. The Cornells wanted out of England, and so 123 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: they left and arrived in Boston. 124 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 3: And there's a lot of politics, a lot of money 125 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 3: going on, but it's also a real just family fight 126 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: between Anglicans, the Church of England, who had a lot 127 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 3: of what they call papist and papal influences, so you know, 128 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: fancy altars, fancy stained glass and all that kind of stuff, 129 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 3: and the Puritan people wanted all the fancy stuff to go. 130 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: Gloria Schmidt is a local historian who is an expert 131 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: in Portsmouth, Rhode Island, which is where most of this 132 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: story takes place. She says that we need to talk 133 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: about religion a lot for context. 134 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 5: It's all important, and it's a framework. And I think 135 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 5: you can't understand this story of what happens without understanding 136 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 5: the spiritual ramifications of what is going on. 137 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: And this is around the same time as the Salem 138 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: witch trials, right, it's. 139 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: About fifty years before. That is certainly something that will influence, 140 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 3: like everything that's going on now becomes something that influences 141 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 3: the Salem witch trials later on. And how people sort 142 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 3: of reacted. 143 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: Gloria says that the Puritans were finicky about their religion 144 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: and other religions. 145 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 5: Well, that's interesting. They would say that they would want 146 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 5: freedom of religion, but what they wanted was freedom of 147 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 5: religion or their religion and not necessarily for anybody else. 148 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: So what does that mean? 149 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 5: So there are people that they wanted to practice their faith, 150 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 5: but they wanted their faith to be the dominant one. 151 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 5: I think that the Pilgrims were not as virulent about it. 152 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 5: They were separatists. They wanted to be apart. I think 153 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 5: that you had a lot of people that had no 154 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 5: real opportunities in England, and so they would see America 155 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 5: as a place where they might own land. 156 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: After Rebecca and Thomas arrived in Boston, they needed to 157 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: support their family. They were both illiterate, but at least 158 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: one of their children had been educated in England. Carrie 159 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: Nolty says that they likely picked a profession that involved 160 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: working with their hands, as many Puritan families did in 161 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds. 162 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 3: They were more likely people who worked with cloth, so 163 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: they were probably weavers, that kind of thing. They probably 164 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: had skill in that area. That's one of the reasons 165 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: that they ran into trouble when they came to Boston 166 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 3: because they didn't have sort of a mercantile experience. 167 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: Thomas had several ideas for work, and weaving was not 168 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: what he wanted to do. 169 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 3: So when they got to Boston, one of the things 170 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: that they first tried to do was to run a tavern. 171 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: But was this. 172 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 4: Unusual for people who were high us. 173 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: So taverns were, you know, there were places, there were 174 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 3: meeting places. Kind of in terms of the social order, 175 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 3: they're primarily a meeting place and actually later on it 176 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 3: just had multifunction so and it was also for people 177 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 3: who were coming in didn't have places to stay and. 178 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: A lot of the time you couldn't even trust drinking water. 179 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: The amount of alcohol was much much less in the beers, 180 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 3: in the ciders, and the kinds of things that they 181 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 3: would drink. They would make things like grog, so that 182 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 3: you know, you'd put in some hard alcohol and it 183 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 3: would kind of kill whatever was lurking in there that 184 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 3: you just didn't know was there. 185 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: Okay. 186 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: So it was really a focal point of colonial life, 187 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 3: and actually a focal point of all life back in 188 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 3: Europe as well. 189 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: But Thomas Senior's efforts at being a tavern keeper only 190 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: lasted a year or two before he began and making 191 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: some mistakes. 192 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 3: That didn't go very well. Apparently, Thomas Senior was fined 193 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 3: by the authorities for putting too much alcohol into his brew, 194 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: and he didn't know to not do that, and he 195 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: didn't know that you weren't supposed to do certain things. 196 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: And he actually went before the court and pleaded ignorance 197 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 3: of this, and so they reduced his fine, but they 198 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: said you cannot be a tavern keeper anymore. 199 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: Thomas lost the tavern and he and Rebecca discussed it, 200 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: struggling to decide what to do next. It turns out 201 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: that around the same time as they had opened the tavern, 202 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: the Cornells had met a very special woman named Anne Hutchinson. 203 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: Have you heard of the Hutchinson Parkway in New York? 204 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: It was named after Anne and her family. Anne was 205 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: unusual because she was at educated in the sixteen hundreds 206 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: when women really. 207 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 5: Weren't in England. She was a follower of one of 208 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 5: the ministers that went to Boston, and so she and 209 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 5: her husband and their family. She had quite a large family. 210 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 5: She had fifteen children altogether and they came over and 211 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 5: her husband was a was a merchant. She had a 212 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 5: big house. She would start gathering people to discuss the 213 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 5: sermons the day after Sunday. 214 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 3: She basically has these meeting groups in her home where 215 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 3: they're discussing things, and you know, she was an electrifying speaker, 216 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 3: and a lot of her ideas she really starts running 217 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 3: a foul of the Puritan leaders at that time. 218 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: The Puritan ministers didn't like that. There was a belief 219 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: that God sent his messages through the male ministers, and 220 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: in Anne's meetings in the beginning, they were all women. 221 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 5: But then their husbands started coming to this and at 222 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 5: that particular point, the ministers were afraid, afraid that she 223 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 5: would send the wrong message. And in their culture, God 224 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 5: acts on the community as a whole, so if someone 225 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 5: was not following God's laws or God's way, the whole 226 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 5: community would be impacted with a hurricane or something like that. 227 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,359 Speaker 5: So it was very important to keep everybody tightly under control. 228 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: But Anne was not one of those people you could 229 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: keep tightly under control. She believed that the Holy Spirit 230 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: talked to the individual, not through the minister. And this 231 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: is a very important concept, one that drew a lot 232 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: of people to her. 233 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 4: And Rebecca Briggs Cornell and her husband twelve Yeah, no, 234 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 4: are going to these meetings and there. 235 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 3: They're going to these meetings. There is a reference in 236 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: one of the books that I read to Thomas, you know, 237 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 3: kind of being told to stop talking about it in 238 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 3: public because they were really actually trying to control a 239 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 3: lot of the speech. And you could back then, we 240 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 3: didn't have, you know, freedom of speech the way that 241 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: you know is espoused in the Bill of Rights and. 242 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 6: All that stuff. In the country. 243 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: No, we weren't. 244 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 3: We were We were a colony and we were English, 245 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 3: and all of those practices and social norms and laws applied. 246 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: The ministers in New England complained about Anne Hutchinson and 247 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: her meetings, but the Cornells found her intelligent and brazen 248 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: and spiritual, as did many others. Eventually, Anne was arrested. 249 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 5: She had two trials. She had a trial in the 250 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 5: in the church, and she had a civil trial. And 251 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 5: you know, at that particular time, if you weren't a 252 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 5: church member, you you couldn't vote, you couldn't have a business, 253 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 5: you wouldn't own land. So being a member of the 254 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 5: church was all important. And those people that started following 255 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 5: her started to lose all those things. They lost their arms, 256 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 5: they lost their vote, they lost their positions. 257 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: I mean, one of the things about this this time 258 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: period is that the religious and the political are almost 259 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 3: never separate. And the experience of creating new governments, new 260 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 3: settlements in these areas, and the marriage of politics and religion, 261 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 3: government and religion and the problems that they caused is 262 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 3: foundational to the United States. 263 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: Anne was convicted and then banished from Boston. From there, 264 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: she and her husband traveled sixty miles south to the 265 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: area known as Portsmouth, Rhode Island, and is considered one 266 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: of the founders of Portsmouth. Other people decided to follow 267 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: her there too, and after they lost the tavern that 268 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: had supported their family in Boston, Thomas and Rebecca Cornell 269 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: decided to join them. 270 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 5: There was a band that got together and they wrote 271 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 5: what we call the Compact, and they were pledging their 272 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 5: lives to be under God, but not necessarily under the Church. 273 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: Anne and her group had the help of Roger Williams, 274 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: a Puritan minister who had also been banished. Williams is 275 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: credited with founding the colony of Rhode Island. They scouted 276 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: around the area and eventually negotiated for a Quidneck Island 277 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: where they planned to settle. But the Pilgrims and the 278 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: Puritans had no real control over the land because it 279 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: was occupied by a Native American group called the Narragansetts. 280 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 5: Now the Native Americans wouldn't have thought that they were selling. 281 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 5: They thought more in terms of sharing the land. Well, 282 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 5: we'll use it this time, and you know, maybe two 283 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 5: years from now we'll be using it. But there was 284 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 5: an actual transaction and actual signatures and not just going 285 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 5: in and taking the land. So, as I said, there 286 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 5: had been good relationships in general between the Narragansetts and 287 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 5: the people that came to Portsmouth. 288 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: This will become important, but for now, the Hutchinson's and 289 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: the Cornells were neighbors in what would become Portsmouth. 290 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 5: And Rebecca Cornell was a very good friend of Anne Hutchinson. 291 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 5: There were friends. They were about the same age, and 292 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 5: I think that that was close ties. The Cornell Land 293 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 5: and the Hutchinson Land grants some of them are close together. 294 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 5: So they were neighbors, and I think that they had 295 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 5: come that far that they were supportives of her, and 296 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 5: they would continue to support her. 297 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: It all seemed to be going well until the church 298 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: authorities in Boston changed the rules. They decided that they 299 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: could pursue people for breaking their laws about religion in 300 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: other colonies, not just the Massachusetts Bay colony. 301 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: And so this entitlement to come and take people to 302 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 3: punish them for their own religious beliefs made Anne Hutchinson 303 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 3: very very nervous and made a number of people very 304 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 3: very nervous, and they wanted to move beyond what they 305 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 3: considered the reach of the Puritans, because at this point, 306 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 3: you know, the Civil War in England is raging full on. 307 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: Nobody knows who's really going to end up in control 308 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 3: of the government, and that has a huge impact on 309 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 3: how people are going to be treated. So what Anne 310 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 3: and a number of people decide to do is moved 311 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 3: to the New Netherland settlement, which is the area of 312 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 3: New York and New Jersey and part of Long Island. 313 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 5: She went to the Bronx area, which was a Dutch colony, 314 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 5: and she set up her family. And some of her 315 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 5: family was older and they had stayed behind, but the 316 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 5: younger ones went with her. And Rebecca Cornell and her 317 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 5: husband left Portsmouth, left everything they had in Portsmouth and 318 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 5: went to the Bronx with. 319 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 3: Her and Anne Hutchinson and the Cornells. They really could 320 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 3: have picked a worse time to move. 321 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: This is where the trauma for the Cornells really began. 322 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: The history books say that Anne Hutchinson and the others 323 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: from Boston got along well with the Native American tribes 324 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: in Rhode Island, but in the Dutch colony of New 325 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: York things were very different. The Dutch did not have 326 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: good relations with the Sewinois of New Netherland, but Anne 327 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: evidently thought it was worth the risk. 328 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 5: Anne was so frightened of the Puritans coming in because 329 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 5: they kept harassing her, and I mean there's no Internet 330 00:19:55,119 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 5: or social media, but there certainly were letters and people 331 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 5: would hear about the threats, and without her husband. After 332 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 5: her husband died, she felt very vulnerable. So she felt 333 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 5: like she had to go someplace because the Plymouth Colony 334 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 5: is not that far, Boston is not that far, and 335 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 5: she was afraid that they would come and take her. 336 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: We aren't sure how long Anne Hutchinson and the Cornells 337 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: were in the Bronx. 338 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 5: But it is time enough that they have a structure, 339 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 5: a building. They've started trying to farm, and I think 340 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 5: they're on a river and it might have been what 341 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 5: we call the Hutchinson River today. 342 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 3: They couldn't have picked a worse time to move to 343 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 3: New Netherlands because they had just gotten a new governor, 344 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 3: Governor Keift, who decided to make the Native Americans essentially 345 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 3: pay tribute to him and that they weren't paying enough 346 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 3: in taxes. Even though he wasn't their leader, he was 347 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 3: basically a usurper. I don't want to go into too 348 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: much of their history, but there were a number of 349 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 3: massacres perpetrated by Dutch people on the Native Americans in 350 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 3: the area, and of course the Native Americans retaliated for sure. 351 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: In the summer of sixteen forty three, Ann and the 352 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: Cornells were trying to live in the Dutch colony, fully 353 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: aware that the relations between the Dutch and the Native 354 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: Americans were really bad and they were getting worse. 355 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 3: The Cornells were at originally what is now Pelham Bay, 356 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 3: and they also had some land across the bay on 357 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 3: Long Island. And when they were starting to build their houses, 358 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 3: which of course you took a long time. There's a 359 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 3: lot of hewing of wood and using axes and no 360 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 3: nails nothing. You know, as long as it takes to 361 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 3: put up a house, now you can just add just 362 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 3: months and months on that. 363 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: Anne Hutchinson, whose husband by this time had died, was 364 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: also building a house. 365 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 3: And they were surprised the Native Americans that people were 366 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: moving into the area given the state of the situation 367 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 3: with the Dutch settlement of unrest, a lot of unrest, 368 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 3: a lot of violence. And her hired workers reported that 369 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 3: Native Americans came over to them one day and took 370 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 3: their tools from them and put them on the ground 371 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 3: and took them by the shoulders and turned them around 372 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 3: and started marching them away. And this happened at least twice, 373 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 3: and one hired person quit. 374 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: Anne's workers took that as a warning from the Native 375 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: Americans it was time to leave, but when they told 376 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: Anne about it, she responded with little concern. 377 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure that they were like, here's your warning, 378 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 3: and she was like, I have always had wonderful relationships 379 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 3: with the Native Americans. I have nothing to fear from them. 380 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 3: They have nothing to fear from me. That was she 381 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 3: ris in the highest degree. 382 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: The men went back to building Anne's home, and Anne 383 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: assumed it was all going to be fine. They had 384 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: been warned, But it wasn't until August of sixteen forty 385 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: three that Anne finally realized that she and her family, 386 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: as well as the Cornells, should have left the Dutch 387 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: colony much sooner, but by then it was too late. 388 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: In August of sixteen forty three, Anne Hutchinson and her 389 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:20,959 Speaker 1: family worked inside their still incomplete home. A group of 390 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: Seawinoy men, led by their chief, raced into the settlement 391 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: and rushed inside the home, where they reportedly scalped the 392 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: entire family, including Anne and four of her young children. 393 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: One of the girl's nine year old Susannah, was out 394 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: picking blueberries when the Seawinoy tracked her down. They spared 395 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: her because of her red hair, which was considered unusual. 396 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: The story goes that she was eventually ransomed back to 397 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: her family members in Boston. Everyone else was dead, including 398 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: Anne and the Seawinoi set fire to the home. 399 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 3: AND's entire family that moved with her were massacred save one. 400 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 3: And this happened at a place known as Split Rock. 401 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 3: The Native Americans came in and killed all the livestock, 402 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 3: the dogs, domestic animals scalped and killed AND's entire family, 403 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 3: except for one girl, Susannah, who was out picking blueberries 404 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 3: and ran and hid in Split Rock. 405 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: Rebecca Thomas Cornell and their sixteen year old son, Thomas 406 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: Junior were horrified when they saw the fire over Anne 407 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: Hutchinson's land. 408 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 3: Their settlement that they were building was about a mile away, 409 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 3: so they were working on that and at that time 410 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 3: they were across the bay, most of them working on 411 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 3: another house in the area, and they saw the smoke 412 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 3: rising from Anne Hutchinson's house, so they set out to 413 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 3: come and try and rescue any survivors. 414 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: The men hopped into boats and rowed toward the Hutchinson house. 415 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 4: So Thomas Cornell Senior was on the boat. 416 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 3: I assume every able bodied man who was in the area. 417 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 3: The Cornells, and maybe some other male members of other 418 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 3: families went on that boat to try and rescue or 419 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 3: stop whatever was happening. 420 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: But as they reached the shore, they realized what was happening, 421 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: and they frantically tried to retreat. 422 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 3: They were intercepted by the Native Americans as they were 423 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 3: coming ashore, and luckily they escaped, but two people that 424 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 3: had tried to make the rescue mission were killed. Thomas 425 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 3: Cornell is one of the ones who survived, as is 426 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 3: his eldest son, Thomas Junior. 427 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: Thomas and Rebecca Cornell were devastated. Their closest friend and 428 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 1: her family had been massacred. They knew they couldn't stay 429 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: in the Dutch colony any longer. It was time to 430 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: return to Portsmouth, Rhode Island, and to pray that the 431 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: church authorities in Boston left them alone. 432 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 5: They escaped on a booked so they left everything they had. 433 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 5: They had daughters who had married in New York and 434 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 5: stayed in New York, so the Cornells went back, but 435 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 5: some of their family members still stayed. 436 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 3: So my direct ancestor is Rebecca Cornell Junior, and she 437 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 3: ended up marrying someone in New Amsterdam and staying, and 438 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 3: that's where my line kind of branches off from them. 439 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 3: But Rebecca and Thomas, Rebecca senior and Thomas Senior went 440 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 3: back to Portsmouth. But there was a lot of back 441 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 3: and forth that he did, because he did apply for 442 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 3: a land grant in New Netherlands and ended up getting it. 443 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: So despite the massacre, Thomas Cornell still wanted to have 444 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: land in the Bronx. 445 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 4: Why would you go back, though, knowing about the tensions 446 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 4: between the Native Americans and the Dutch, why would you continue. 447 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 7: To try to be there? 448 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 3: I think money, I think a sense of righteousness. I 449 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 3: think he also he I mean, my ancestor wasn't the 450 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 3: only one who stayed in the area. He had another 451 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 3: son who stayed, and he had another daughter who married 452 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 3: and stayed. So he now had a family in that 453 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 3: area and had this land grant that was just sitting there. 454 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: After the massacre, the Cornells with their eight children returned 455 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: to Portsmouth to start anew. 456 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 3: So they go back to Portsmouth and they are they 457 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 3: petitioned for some land and they're granted about one hundred 458 00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 3: acres in Portsmouth on the west side, going up to 459 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: near Against Bay. 460 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: Thomas Cornell Senior was granted land to establish another tavern 461 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: like the one he had owned before they left for 462 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: New York. 463 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 5: There were some problems there because he was granted that 464 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 5: land on provision that he would create a cavern, and 465 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 5: taverns were very important in those days. They were the 466 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 5: meeting spot and there was a lot involved with that. 467 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 5: And you know the fact that he didn't follow through 468 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 5: with his thomis is not very helpful there. 469 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: This irritated the local government, but they didn't take the 470 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: land away. Instead, Thomas Cornell built a house for his 471 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: wife and their family and they finally settled down. 472 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 4: So what did Thomas Cornell Senior do in Portsmith? 473 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: I think he was just a farmer. He certainly wasn't 474 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 3: a tavern keeper. I think he gave that up. I 475 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 3: think that they were focused on livestock raising livestock. I 476 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 3: think that that was they were familiar with from the 477 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 3: area that they lived in in England, in Essex and 478 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 3: saffron Walden, it was known quite a bit for their 479 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 3: weaving ability, so the cloth that was manufactured there. So 480 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 3: I think that they probably did that. 481 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: We think that weaving was Rebecca's department. She enjoyed using 482 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: her loom by the fire at night. The family included 483 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: a young man in his twenties named Thomas Cornell Junior. 484 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: He's one of the main characters in our story. Do 485 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: we know anything. 486 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 4: About Thomas Cornell Junior when he's younger or kind of 487 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 4: at this point? 488 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 3: So, there are some records in the New Amsterdam files 489 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 3: that indicate that there was a Thomas Cornell who was 490 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 3: in a militia, and of course that would be something 491 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 3: you know, they would go out and they would fight 492 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 3: the Native Americans and you know, defend in that kind 493 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 3: of thing. And there's a report that he and another 494 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 3: person were arrested for desertion and the other man was 495 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: shot and he had a warning shot fired over his head. 496 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: Carrie Nolty says she can't be sure about those records, 497 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: but the ages do match. 498 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 3: Now, Cornell is not an uncommon name. It could be 499 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 3: that this is an entirely different Thomas Cornell. However, I 500 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: think it stands to reason that if you wanted to 501 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 3: assume that it was Thomas Cornell Junior, a young man 502 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: who just watched neighbors that he had spent years with, 503 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 3: that he had tight ties with, yet murdered massacred. He 504 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 3: would be filled with some fury and want to go 505 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 3: out and do something, So joining a militia makes sense. 506 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 3: It also makes sense in the sense that we don't 507 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 3: see a record of Thomas Cornell Junior show up back 508 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 3: in Portsmouth until the sixteen fifties. 509 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: Rebecca and Thomas continue to work on the house in 510 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: Portsmouth as Thomas Junior helped, So he would have. 511 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 4: Been in his twenties, and would he have lived with 512 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 4: Thomas Senior and Rebecca at the homestead of this one 513 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 4: hundred acres you're talking. 514 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 3: About absolutely As the eldest son, he would have been 515 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 3: expected to inherit the bulk of the farmstead. You know, 516 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: there is a lot of tension comes in these colonial 517 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 3: families from the divvying up of property once apparent dies, 518 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 3: and it actually is one of the factors that drove 519 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 3: westward expansion is the lack of resources once these areas 520 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,719 Speaker 3: started getting settled, so they would move westward in search 521 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 3: of more land, more opportunity, all that kind of stuff. 522 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: It sounds like Thomas j staking his claim working his 523 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: father's land in anticipation of inheriting it all when he died. 524 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,479 Speaker 1: And in sixteen fifty five, sixty year old Thomas Senior 525 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: became ill and then he died. 526 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 7: Let me go back real quick. 527 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: So Thomas Cornell Senior dies. 528 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 3: Mm hm, you know, it's just kind of old age, 529 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 3: sort of for the time, let's say for the time. 530 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: Okay. 531 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 3: Could have been, could have been a heart attack, could 532 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 3: have been anything. 533 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: Nothing weird about that. 534 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 1: The Cornell family patriarch was gone, and the family buried 535 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: him right there on the property. The whole family was devastated, 536 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: especially his widow, Rebecca Briggs Cornell. They had been married 537 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: for more than thirty years. The now twenty eight year 538 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: old Thomas Junior comforted his siblings, and Rebecca decided to 539 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: stay in the home. What choice did she really have 540 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: at this point? We need to fast forward about ten years. 541 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: Sometime in his thirties, Thomas Junior married a woman in 542 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: New Amsterdam. We don't know anything about her except that 543 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 1: his mother, Rebecca adored her. She and Thomas had four 544 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: children before she suddenly passed away from natural causes sometime 545 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: before sixteen sixty eight. After losing his wife, Thomas Junior 546 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 1: and the kids moved into Rebecca's home in Portsmouth, staying 547 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: on the top floor of the house. Thomas Senior had 548 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: not just provided for Thomas Junior, his eldest, but for 549 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: all of his kids, and he had provided very well 550 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: for his devoted wife, Rebecca. 551 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 3: Rebecca Senior and Thomas Junior are living together as the 552 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 3: eldest son. Thomas Junior inherited most of the property from 553 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 3: Thomas Senior, but there is a provision in the will 554 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 3: that allow Rebecca Senior to stay in the home in 555 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 3: her traditional room, which was the best room of the 556 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 3: house as it was called, and Thomas Junior had to 557 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 3: pay her rent every year. 558 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: Thomas Junior needed his mother, but he was also indebted 559 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: to her and things didn't seem too easy for him. 560 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: More about that later, because it was a big problem. Then, 561 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: in sixteen sixty eight, Thomas married another woman named Sarah Earl, 562 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: who was from a very famous family. He was forty 563 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: one by this time and Sarah was twenty years younger. 564 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 3: The Earl family is a well known and well respected 565 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 3: family in Portsmouth. At the time, they had children, They 566 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: had children. They had two daughters by that time, and 567 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 3: in sixteen seventy three, Sarah Earl was pregnant with her third. 568 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: Sarah. Thomas and their six kids. Lif lived in the 569 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: large house, but on the top floor, while Rebecca had 570 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: the entire bottom floor all to herself. 571 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 4: Do we have an idea of whether or not Thomas 572 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 4: was okay with this arrangement that he gets on the 573 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 4: land and everything, but that his mother has the circumount 574 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 4: of control. 575 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 3: It sounds like, oh yeah, no, tensions were high. 576 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: Thomas Senior died back in sixteen fifty five, and now 577 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: we've finally caught up to the main thrust of our story, 578 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: which is what happened in February of sixteen seventy three. 579 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: Rebecca Cornell held the deed to the house and all 580 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: of the land, and even though Thomas Junior was set 581 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: to inherit most of it, he had to work the 582 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: land without being able to actually control it. Thomas Senior 583 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 1: had wanted security for his wife, and his will made 584 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: sure she had it. 585 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 3: What he did in pointing his will together, That's why 586 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 3: he was trying to take care of her so she 587 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 3: couldn't be cast out, couldn't you know, Like she had 588 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,959 Speaker 3: a place, a place of importance, but over time. Over 589 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 3: twenty years, this place of importance becomes just a nexus 590 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 3: point of resentment and anger between Thomas Junior and Rebecca. 591 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: In seventeenth century New England, men ruled society, but in 592 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: Thomas Cornell's world, his mother controlled all of it. 593 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 3: In a patriarchal society, he is supposed to be the man, 594 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 3: he is supposed to be in charge, but she holds 595 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 3: the purse strings and he has to go, for example, 596 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 3: to Rebecca and ask for one hundred pounds loan in 597 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 3: addition to paying her rent to be able to farm 598 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 3: and use the land. And this is set up. The 599 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 3: rent is set up as a part of the will, 600 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 3: so she's deeded the property to him in the future, 601 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 3: but there's a rent aspect to it. 602 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: Rebecca Cornell had numerous childrenss the Eastern Coast, but Thomas 603 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: was the one living with her. 604 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 3: One of the things that became a bone of contention 605 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 3: is that Thomas Junior was withholding his rent from his 606 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 3: mother on the condition that she forgave this hundred pound debt, 607 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 3: and it had her in such an emotional uproar that 608 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 3: she actually spoke about it to her neighbors. And these 609 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 3: are very contained people. You know, you don't talk about money, 610 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 3: you don't, you know, say those things. 611 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: Rebecca was livid over her son's lack of reverence, and 612 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: she complained about it loudly. 613 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 3: So he wouldn't pay this money back. He wanted it forgiven, 614 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 3: and she wouldn't get the rent from him, and she 615 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 3: needed that rent, that cash at hand, in order to 616 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 3: pay her taxes. So there was this strife going on. 617 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 3: And one of the reasons she didn't want to forgive 618 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 3: it is because, you know, get your money back it's alone. 619 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: Rebecca didn't want to drain the inheritance for her other children. 620 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: Thomas had to pay her back. 621 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 3: She didn't want to make things unfair for her other children, 622 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 3: and so she was put between this rock and a 623 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 3: hard place. 624 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: And remember that his second wife, Sarah Earle, was living 625 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: there too, and that was another very big problem. Rebecca 626 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,240 Speaker 1: Cornell loved her son's first wife, but the second wife, 627 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: according to Rebecca, was awful. 628 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 3: There was just tension up and down. It was an 629 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 3: unhappy home. 630 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: Just wait, someone in the Cornell family was going to 631 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: die and someone else would be accused of murder. But 632 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: who On this season of tenfold more wicked on exactly right. 633 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 3: The reason is a bit more of ITD is there 634 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 3: were no such thing as funeral homes, so they all 635 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 3: had the front parlors for displaying of the deceased. 636 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 5: So that most likely is where in Assyria. 637 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,439 Speaker 3: Yeah. At one point there's a report that she had 638 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 3: to intervene when Sarah Earl was chasing one of her 639 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 3: step children with an axe. 640 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 7: Oh and she was. 641 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 3: Seventy years old and she had to stop Sarah from 642 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 3: chasing this child with an axe. 643 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 5: It's insanity. 644 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 2: It is. 645 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 7: You can't make the top. 646 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 3: You really can't. I mean, you see it in so 647 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 3: many men who kill women that how dare you tell 648 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 3: me what to be, how to be? How are you 649 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 3: above me? You are not? And I'll show you. 650 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: If you love true crime, check out my books American 651 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: Sherlock and All that Is Wicked. I also have an 652 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: audio book called The Ghost Club. I can't wait to 653 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: tell you the real story about the world's most famous 654 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: ghost hunter, who was the head of the world's most 655 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: famous ghost club and how he investigated England's most famous 656 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: haunted house. This has been an exactly right tenfold more 657 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: Media production producer Jason Whaling, Senior Producer Alexis and Morosi. 658 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: Consulting producer Kyle Ryan, researcher Nicole Brown, sound designer Eric Friend. 659 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: Additional sound design by Nicholas Mooney's composer Curtis Heath, artwork 660 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer. 661 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold More Wicked