1 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: Hi you guys. So welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU edition. 2 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jennifer Fessler. So today we are talking 3 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: to filmmaker and director Angus James. So, he's the director 4 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: behind the haunting true crime docuseries My Killer Father The 5 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: Green Hollow Murders. Guys, this one is creepyaf I mean, 6 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: it's a lot. The series explores the shocking allegation surrounding 7 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: Donald Dean Stuteley, who is an Iowaman accused by several 8 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: of his children of abuse, violence, possibly multiple murders, connected 9 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: to a remote property known as Green Hollow. So for years, 10 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: family members claim victims were buried in abandoned wells on 11 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: the land, and there were allegations that led investigators to 12 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: conduct excavations decades after the crimes were said to have happened. 13 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: So this is a crazy, whacked out story about murders 14 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: that happened years ago and discovering the truths and this 15 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: family that just has been through so much. And I 16 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: will tell you that something comes out in the course 17 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: of our interview. There is some news that you will 18 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: not want to miss, some news that really just kind 19 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: of turned the whole story around. But anyway, I'm not 20 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: going to keep teasing you. Let's bring in Angus James. Hi. 21 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: Angus Hi, thanks for having me. 22 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. Really really appreciate it. 23 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: Your work is fascinating, This documentary is fascinating. And I 24 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: always kind of ask directors producers, like, how you doing 25 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: you okay after all this, because it seems like it 26 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: would have been quite the ride. 27 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was really intense. I mean it 28 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: was especially intense because you know, you have especially like 29 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 2: an obligation to find out if it's true, but you're 30 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: also dealing with somebody who I think for years has 31 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: been no one's believed her. So there's sort of this 32 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: real sort of emotional and I think psychological responsibility to 33 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: her to give her a voice. But I was also 34 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: struggling between that and you know, when you can go 35 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: and take this out to market and tell people, hey, 36 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: I really have something that I believe in here. So, yeah, 37 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: it was. It was a lot. The hardest part of 38 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: it was sort of through that part where we were 39 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: self financing it and trying to figure out, you know, 40 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: was there or there there, But once we sort of 41 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: started to come up with some real investigative discoveries on 42 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: our own. That's when things got easier for sure. 43 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: How'd it come to you? 44 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: We saw it on CNN. We saw it on Anderson 45 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: Cooper was covering it. It was interviewing the journal one of 46 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: the journalists who broke the story. And we reached out 47 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: to Lucy, and you know, you call as like, our 48 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: job is to basically track down these things, and you 49 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: lose a lot of them because there's a lot of 50 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 2: other production companies chasing them and morning shows and everything else. 51 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: But yeah, she she You know, I think we really 52 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: connected with her, and particularly Paul Limo's producing partner of mine. 53 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: His father was murdered, you know, in a in a 54 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: sort of a crazy story, so he has this sort 55 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: of personal connection to the sort of true crime, and 56 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 2: I think that they really connected. 57 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was your impression of Lucy when you met her? 58 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: She'd been through a lot, traumatized, desperate for someone to 59 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: sort of desperate for someone to investigate what she believed 60 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 2: to have been true. 61 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: It was palpable her you know, desperation and her need 62 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: to be heard and just heartbreaking really, And I felt 63 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: that just throughout the entirety of the documentary. Right, it's 64 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: it's it's a scary story. It's a tragic story, and 65 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: it's also just such a sad story, right for all involved, 66 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: but particularly I just the frustration that I, you know, 67 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: I felt I couldn't imagine having this carrying this wheat, right, 68 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: like your whole life, you've been abused, You've had to 69 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: carry bodies for your father and no one will listen. 70 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: That's always like the shit that just freaks me out. 71 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean she went in you know, at one 72 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: point she tells a story about when she was a 73 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: little girl and she had the courage to tell her 74 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: her teacher, right, yeah, and you know the way she 75 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: tells it afterwards, she was beaten the whole way home. 76 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: There's a scene, you know, much less later in our filming. 77 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 2: This is probably three years after us filming this where 78 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: she describes the time she was beaten so bad and 79 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: being choked and she said it to her sister. She's like, 80 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: this is what was happening to me, And her sister 81 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: said something to the effect of, well, if I remember right, 82 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: you were screaming like a freight train, as if there 83 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 2: was some sort of justification for the abuse she received. 84 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 2: They disagreed on the context of why she was beaten, 85 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 2: But I think the thing that really struck me fairly 86 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: early on was the amount of people that we would 87 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: talk about the abuse they saw, the physical abuse that 88 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: they saw the indoor right. 89 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: Interestingly, I felt sympathy for both of them, right, So 90 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: I think it could have been set up right that 91 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: there was a protagonist an antagonist and in terms of 92 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: these two sisters, right, And I did kind of feel 93 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: it a little bit. I was like, I felt so 94 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: badly for Lucy and Susan. I didn't believe Susan, but 95 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: yet there was the human side of her. I feel 96 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: like that you guys were able to show and to 97 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: I could feel her pain as well. You know, it's 98 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: and like she really, for whatever reason, believes that her 99 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: father is innocent, and so, you know, it sound always 100 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: easy to get the human out of it out of everyone, 101 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: at least that's been my experience. Like in these documentaries 102 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: and these true crime documentaries, it's very easy for me 103 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: to go, oh, I fucking hate her, She's the worst, 104 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, and I kind of wanted to do that 105 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: with Susan. But I could also kind of get feel 106 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: her humanity and feel bad for her. 107 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have, you know, I mean, for those who 108 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: don't know, it's a story. You know, there's sort of 109 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: five sisters at the central, you know that I think 110 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: of sort of the main characters in the story. There's 111 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: two biological sisters, and then there are three stepsisters. And 112 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: the three stepsisters have always believed that the father of 113 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: these two biological sisters, who was married to their mom, 114 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: that he always killed, that he had killed her mom, 115 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: their mom. But the core of it is with these 116 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: two sisters, Lucy and then Susan, who have vastly different 117 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: versions of their childhood. One says their father was a 118 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: murder and beat them, and the other one was like, 119 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: he was a wonderful dad and he never even hit us. 120 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: It was pretty early on that I knew that the 121 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: abuse was true. I had substantiated that. They're multiple sources, 122 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: and so I knew that, you know, Lucy's sister Susan 123 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: wasn't being honest with us about that, or wasn't able 124 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: to be honest, you know, you know, but it made 125 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: me think a lot, and I talked to my siblings 126 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: about this. You know, there's four of us. I have 127 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: three disiblings, and we have wildly different memories sometimes, you know, 128 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: like a memory that we believe happened in the snow, 129 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: or that took place years later in the summer, of 130 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: some memories that people say that and so it was, 131 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: And trauma actually, you know, makes memory much less reliable. 132 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: And so that's that's the hardest part about this, and 133 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: I think also the most interesting part about it is 134 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: it's a psychological thriller in a lot of ways, because 135 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 2: the two people who are present for the most of 136 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: it were deeply traumatized, and therefore there may at times 137 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: be you know, a conscious effort to lie and conceal 138 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: something or for whatever reason, for attention or to defend 139 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: their father, or to get people to pay attention to this. 140 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: But more often than not, what I really found was, 141 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: you know, a reality that was wildly distorted from the 142 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: trauma that they experience. So there was no way of 143 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: oftentimes discerning what the truth was. 144 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: How'd you get Susan to agree to do it? I 145 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: would have thought that that would have been feat. 146 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was really really resistant for a while, you know, persistence, 147 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: We talked to people, I mean, my main thing, and 148 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: she's watched it, and she you know, the feedback we've 149 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: gotten was mostly really positive. I really don't like making 150 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: things that are like gotcha things. I try to get 151 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 2: to people's essence and who they really are, and you 152 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: don't always get it, and some people don't like who 153 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: they are, so they'll see something and not feel happy 154 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: about it. But overwhelmingly in my career, I'm really proud 155 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: of the fact that I tackle some really tough subjects 156 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: and someone watches it and they're like, yeah, that's a 157 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 2: fair representation of it. And overwhelmingly, actually, there's not a 158 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: single person who's watched it who are including the sisters 159 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 2: and other people who have said yeah, that's that's a 160 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 2: fair representation of me. I mean, Susan knows that she's 161 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: the lone voice. She knows she's the only one left 162 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 2: standing for her father, and I think I don't want 163 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: to speak for her, but my certainly, you know, I've 164 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 2: had conversations who were both on camera and off right, 165 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 2: and I left with it, you know, with a very 166 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: clear feeling that she's changed in the course of making this. Yeah, 167 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: I think she's gone from being someone who wasn't able 168 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: to explore this at all or even entertain the idea. 169 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: Both from a desire to I think both from a 170 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: conscious unconscious desire, like I'm going to defend my father. 171 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 2: He'd be proud of me if I defended him. I 172 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 2: think that's conscious. The unconscious part is that I don't 173 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: know if she has access to it, to most of it, 174 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: you know, But throughout the course of this it changed 175 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: into a place of like, yeah, this as possible. It's possible, 176 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: and wow, and it could have happened, and you know, 177 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: obviously admittance towards the end is sort of at just 178 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 2: a recognition that she thinks that she knows where her 179 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: father would have hit bodies if he was a killer. 180 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: Have they been in therapy? 181 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: No, Lucy, did you know this hypnotherapy which helped her 182 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 2: a lot? Yeah, we recorded, like, you know, a number 183 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 2: of those sessions. 184 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I remember that, Yeah, but not Yeah, but that. 185 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 2: Was that's that's the extent of it that I know of. 186 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: Wow. I also I'm wondering with both of these women 187 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: because there wasn't that much in terms of like where 188 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: they're at in life right now? Do they have do 189 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: they have families that are supportive of them, that were 190 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: around I didn't see much of that. 191 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Lucy's son was one of the most interesting people 192 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: to talk to, and he's obviously the one, right, but 193 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: it's all good season. But Lucy's son, I mean, you know, 194 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: he's been this witness to his mom just like totally 195 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: bankrupting them by every once in a while, you know, 196 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: go every several years going on this mission to prove this. 197 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: So he's sort of interesting, right because he's sort of 198 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: looking at his mom and he's just like, there's no 199 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: way anyone would do this if they were if they 200 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: were telling the truth. But I certainly know there's things 201 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: that Lucy has lied to me about. So there's things 202 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: that she's and I believe some of that is consciously lying, 203 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: although I don't I don't. I don't know that that's true. 204 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: It's just what I believe. With Susan, she has she 205 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: has family, I think, you know, mostly estranged. I think 206 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: this has been this has been really tough on her. 207 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 2: I don't know if you can see in the course 208 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: of the documentary, like the interviews, like you you know, 209 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 2: she she she the last interview I did, I was 210 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: worried about her. I didn't she didn't look super well. 211 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if you picked up on that. 212 00:12:52,840 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I did you know you were with these women 213 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: for three years? I wonder how personally, you know, you 214 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: have to become emotionally attached to them, have feelings for them, 215 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: whether or not they are always warm feelings or suspicious feelings, 216 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: but still you know you're involved with these people, and 217 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: how did that affect you emotionally? 218 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: I mean, with with respect of the studies, you know, 219 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: I would say the relationship I had, I was in 220 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: an abusive relationship. You know, this is like we were 221 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: berated and and and yelled at and screamed at, and 222 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: we really think of it Luci's place that we're helping her. 223 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 2: You know, we're the ones that are listening to her 224 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: more than anyone else. But she I mean it was, Yeah, 225 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 2: it was. It was really hard at times. 226 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: You know, some times you're maybe against her doesn't trust you. 227 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 2: I'm guessing it's it's no rhyme or reason. There's deep 228 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: trauma there. There's a lot of violence in the past, 229 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: and I found her to be anix extremely violent person, 230 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: thankfully just verbally in our experience, but there was a 231 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: lot of verbal violence. 232 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: Wow, I mean, did you ever consider, you know, throwing 233 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: it away? 234 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: No, I'm kind of a junkie for this stuff. You know. 235 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, look, I think it's I love what 236 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: I do. I was a kid, I you know, thought 237 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: of like gonzo journalism and I just thought, Wow, if 238 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: I could do something like that one day. So I'm 239 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: I feel so privileged to do what I do, and 240 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: even you know, when you're in these difficult situations, like 241 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I mean, I will say, 242 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: like with this, what I expected to happen didn't happen. 243 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: I thought I was well after the news footage came out, 244 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: I thought I was walking into something that was going 245 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: to be an active investigation. And what happened here that 246 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: was much harder is that we realized fairly early on 247 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: that we were the investigators, and that that was a 248 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: bit out of our element. Like we've got a lot 249 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: of supportive investigation, but the idea that we're the ones 250 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: driving the investigation forward. That's the thing that made me 251 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: think sometimes of stopping because it's like, you know, honestly, 252 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: it's not really what I'm I kind of consider myself 253 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: qualified to do. It's not that I haven't been around 254 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: a lot of these types of stories, and you know, 255 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: hours and hours. 256 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: You're not trained private investigator, yeah, you know. 257 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: And I would have liked law enforcement to be more involved, 258 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: but we couldn't get them. So we we brought in, 259 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: you know, forensic analysis on autopsies. We brought in people 260 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: behind the scenes and on camera. We brought these medical 261 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: examiners and also former FBI agent Stewart Fillmore, who you know, 262 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: was super helpful to have him. 263 00:15:51,840 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: He was fascinating. You paid to have Lucy's stepmom's body zoomed, right, Yeah. 264 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we crossed every line of like sort 265 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: of like what you know, you would think of as 266 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: sort of journalism. But I think journalisms also really changed. 267 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: Like Newsweek had actually paid for the cadaver dogs to 268 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 2: come and search the property, and so that's that's Newsweek, 269 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: you know, That's that's where we sort of came into 270 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: the story. But there was absolutely no way for us 271 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 2: to substantiate these claims without exooming the body of one 272 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: of the wives, right, So that was a big part 273 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: of us We did that. I paid for that out 274 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: of my own pocket. Serious, Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I 275 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: didn't feel like I could go to Paramount or any 276 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: of the streamers who I do business with all the time, 277 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 2: right instead of them, Hey, I have this great story 278 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: you should invest in. I didn't know if it was true. 279 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: You paid for that out of your own pocket, So 280 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is an inappropriate question. I 281 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: ask a lot of inappropriate question. So, but like, what 282 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: does that cost? 283 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: That was like twenty five thousand up front? 284 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: Serious, you're committed, dude. 285 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: Wow, I was in way more than that. I had 286 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: paid for all the film. This was the farther I 287 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: had gone down the rabbit hole by a long shot. 288 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: And that was that was really scary because I was 289 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: financially extended as well as you know, and also when 290 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 2: once you're committed financially like you sort of feel you 291 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 2: need for them to be an outcome back then you know, 292 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 2: and if they're not. But then also there's you know, 293 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 2: you know, the ethical aspect of it. I mean, I'm 294 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: very thankful that there's a lot of people that I 295 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 2: talked to that didn't make it in the cup for 296 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: various reasons. Some didn't want to be on camera. In particular, 297 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 2: Don Stewdey's previous wives and the children his children of 298 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 2: previous Two of them are alive, and one of them 299 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: is like a baby mom and not a wife, but 300 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 2: you know, had a child with and the other's a 301 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 2: wife and then those children and those stories to hear 302 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 2: two of his previous one wife, one woman he had 303 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: a child would saying, hey, he tried to kill me too, 304 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: and I got away. And there's an escalation that happens, 305 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 2: you know usually with people like this where they had, 306 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: you know, try to kill someone, don't go as far, 307 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: but then once they start, they don't go back. It 308 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 2: was those sorts of testimony ammonies along with you know, 309 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: Robert Massen, who is this guy who wasn't going to 310 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 2: agree on camera for a long time, but who came 311 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: forward and said, hey, I helped carry the body of 312 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: a young woman into the woods and don stid he 313 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: paid me. Yeah, those things, you know, started to give 314 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: us a lot of confidence that we should we had 315 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: to keep going. 316 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: Really yeah, that was that was such an interesting scene 317 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: that when he just got so obviously freaked out. Who 318 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't have and you could just even in his talking 319 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: about it, see like the terror on his face, you know, 320 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: and he was carrying he was carrying the if I 321 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: remember correctly, the torso right. 322 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 2: That's what he remembered. Yeah, he was pretty high at 323 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: the time, but he brought us right to the spot. 324 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 2: I mean, he noticed the picture from from from the newspaper. 325 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: He brought us right to the place. And that path 326 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: where he brought us to the body. Right up that 327 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 2: path is where Lucy about you. One hundred and fifty 328 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: yards up that hill is where the first well site 329 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: that Lucy brought us to. I do have some news 330 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 2: to break today if you're interested. 331 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, all right. 332 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: Well, recently Lucy broke onto the property and she's taken 333 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: some photos and we've sent that over to doctor Belcher, who's, 334 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: you know, the the anthropologist from University of Nebraska, and 335 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 2: they believe she's found the well. 336 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: You're wait a second, hold on, hold on, you're announcing that. 337 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: Am I the first person to hear this? 338 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I got photos of it and everything. 339 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: Damn. Really yeah, what are you gonna do now? 340 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out. I 341 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 2: don't know, you know, I've spent three years of my life. 342 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 2: What are you telling a friend? Like? I'm happy for 343 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: it to be over because it was very intense, But 344 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel like I got to go 345 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: figure that out, you know. Well yeah, yeah, yeah. 346 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm happy for you or I'm 347 00:19:59,119 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: devastating for you. 348 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's so basically what happens. There's a ravine, 349 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: Like where we go the side of the first well, 350 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 2: there's a ravine just beyond that, and there was a 351 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: lot of erosion. You know, since Lucy was a girl, 352 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 2: she went up the ravine instead of going from the top, 353 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: and in it she found the shaft in the in 354 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: the thing, took all the photos of it with her. 355 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 2: We sent those photos to doctor Belcher. He said, yep, 356 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 2: that's a well shaft, so it's probably another you know, 357 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 2: anywhere to sixty to eighty feet down from there is 358 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 2: where the bottom of that well would be. So that's 359 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: what has to be tested to see if there are 360 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: human remains there. 361 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,239 Speaker 1: And are you I don't know if these questions are 362 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: that relevant, but like you have to take this on 363 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: just you. Is there is there a law enforcement going 364 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: to jump in now? Or is this going to all 365 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: fall on you? 366 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 2: We continue to send everything we find to law enforcement. 367 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: We were trying to get this, you know, six hundred 368 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: and twelve page FBI report on Don Stewarty released. It's 369 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: like a backlog. It says ten years to get that release. 370 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,719 Speaker 2: So I think we have six and a little bit 371 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 2: to go, but we're still pushing for that. We send 372 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 2: everything we can to the local coroner's office. We just 373 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: got word that the coroner who had really blown us 374 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: off for a long time, and more importantly blown off 375 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 2: Charlotte Study's three daughters. Right, so Charlotte's and they live 376 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: in Omaha, they pay taxes in Omaha. And it's been 377 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: really frustrating because for some reason, the coroner, despite this 378 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 2: overwhelming evidence, to say, Okay, well, nobody who's looked at 379 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: us says that's a suicide. One medical examiner said, I 380 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: can't determine, but that moves off suicide is a big move. 381 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 2: And another one who's really a renowned expert in suicides 382 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 2: across all of America, said this is definitively a homicide. 383 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: Despite that, despite the report from FBI agent Stewart from 384 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: refree agent Stewart, Fillmore saying this from all the documents 385 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: he's seen is this is a stage crime scene. And 386 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: he would say that the police investigation was either in 387 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: competence or corrupt. Right, that's his announcis, despite that, we 388 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 2: got crickets out of them. And then anytime Donrie and 389 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: Charlotte contacted the corner, he said, we're standing by our decision. 390 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 2: That was it. But I think given the airing of 391 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: the show and this preponderance of evidence, we keep putting 392 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 2: towards them. Finally that said they're taking another look at it, 393 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: So that's another thing. Really happy girls. 394 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: Do you think that they may have any financial recourse? 395 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 2: The whole it was really really smart what happened, which 396 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 2: I didn't get I wasn't able to get this much 397 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: into the three part series, but basically what the reason 398 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: they were able to get the initial police report released, 399 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: So there was this full police report. There's the short 400 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 2: one that is public record, but there's the full re 401 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: police report of what happened to their mom. And as 402 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: you remember, when I'm interviewing one of the officers to 403 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 2: ask why can't we have that police report, he says 404 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 2: it's sealed. It's all MAHA policy, which was really distressing 405 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: to us, but also especially to her daughter, saying, if 406 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: you believe this is a suicide, why can't you show 407 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 2: us the full We can't, We can't We can't. What 408 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: they did was they filed a case in court with 409 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 2: an attorney as a probate case, because they said, this 410 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 2: is a documentary being made on our mom and probate 411 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: is about about an estate, the value of a state. 412 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 2: So by the attorney saying this is a probate case, 413 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: this potentially could be worth money. That's their inheritance. That's 414 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: the only way they got Omaha to release the police 415 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: report out of you know, using this probate loss was 416 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 2: very crafty by the attorney. Wow who filed the case. 417 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's smart. Do you think they will 418 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: go for damages? 419 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't. I never got the 420 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,479 Speaker 2: sense that that's what this is about. 421 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: Isn't it eventually always about that? I don't know. I 422 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: mean that's just my. 423 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: I think if it was a cover up, you know, 424 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 2: if this was and that, I don't know how easy 425 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 2: that will be to prove. But you know, I think 426 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 2: if it's you know, I think it depends what, Yeah, 427 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,239 Speaker 2: what comes up if look, if this is all a 428 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 2: willful and liberate attempt to right day to still conceal 429 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 2: something happened a while ago, I mean, that's horrifl I. 430 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: Would like to see that for them, right, I mean. 431 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 2: I have to believe I'm not a conspiracy theorist that 432 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 2: there was a cover up back then. And today it's 433 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: more of like, let's not look too much as egg 434 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 2: on the face. We don't want to deal with it. 435 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: We have other things, and they also have other things 436 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 2: going on that are about active, you know, investigations of 437 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 2: a current murder. But I don't know, it's very strange. 438 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: It's certainly very strange. 439 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the sister. She was quite the character, 440 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: the Marilyn Monroe of it all. What an interesting woman, 441 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: just I mean just in terms of like I would think, 442 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: I mean, a filmmaker's perspective, right, just to her demeanor. 443 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: She had just been out of prison. This is her 444 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, this is her dying wish is to uncover 445 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: the truth. Then the fact that she died, what is 446 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: it two months after? 447 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, two months after she gives those interviews she died. 448 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did she die? I'm just curious. 449 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: She had she had a long thing. I mean, she 450 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: was left in prison because you know, because of her 451 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: failing health. So she was let out knowing she was, 452 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 2: you know, she was going to die. Soon. We didn't 453 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: think it'd be that soon, but yeah, it was. It 454 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 2: was surprising for us. 455 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's Yeah. So when she admitted that, when she 456 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: said that she truly believed that he killed one hundred 457 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: at least one hundred people, that was quite a moment, right, 458 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: And the way she said it so sort of matter 459 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: of factly, it freaked me out. Right. So much of 460 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: this is like I'm watching it and you know, you're 461 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: listening to Lucy and you're listening to the stories of 462 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: the mothers and the girlfriends and then one hundred people. 463 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: So how was this guy? You know, how did he 464 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: get away with this? Because it's one thing if it's 465 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: so incestuous, it's another now we're talking about and I 466 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: don't know if it actually was one hundred people. Do 467 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: you believe that it was? 468 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,479 Speaker 2: Maybe that there's no way for me to know that, 469 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: but I know that she told me. And like, for 470 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: a while when we interviewed her, I was like, maybe 471 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: she's just our main character. You know, it's this sort 472 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 2: of this person that gets out of prison. She she 473 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: was in prison for, you know, attempted murder, for bludgeoning 474 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: her boyfriend, and it runs into this is an incredibly 475 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 2: violent family, you know, very very strange childhood. You know, 476 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 2: their mom, Donna and Marilyn's mom was a prostitute. She 477 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 2: was a couple of decades younger than her father. Father 478 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 2: was terribly abusive. They fit all the prototype of Don, 479 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: fits the prototype of this sort of you know, serial killer. 480 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 2: So there's all these sort of strange things. There's all 481 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 2: these stories of childhood. And anyway, she watched Don dissolve 482 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 2: a body into a vat of acid one time that 483 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 2: she told us about, right, and then and then she 484 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 2: she watched Don kill her rapist. She was raped by 485 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 2: this guy when she was younger. And I think she 486 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: genuinely was pleased when John Don killed her rapist. 487 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that felt very apparent, and that she was 488 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: not only pleased but really proud. And you know, you 489 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: guys didn't delve too much into the story of the rape. 490 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: But she said, you know, you sure that's him? Yeah, 491 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: And she said, yes, I'm sure. And he went in 492 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: there and then he took the money from the cash register. 493 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: But like there's all of this stuff right still hanging 494 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: like okay, so let's go with he was the rapist. 495 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's not part of this story, right, 496 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,719 Speaker 1: But what if he wasn't? But okay, let's say he was. 497 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: Where are the cops? How did that not get traced? 498 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: I don't get it. It's not that long ago. 499 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And also you know it's the same is true 500 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 2: with this story that Lucy says that her father beat 501 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 2: I mean, we investigated that thoroughly, and we couldn't find 502 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: anybody who was murdered at that place around that time. 503 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: We never found any evidence of that. However, what I 504 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 2: will tell you is multiple people, including people we couldn't 505 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: include in this because they wouldn't agree on camera, all 506 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: had first accounced that Don was a hitman for the mob. 507 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: What the rumor was that he was in the hole 508 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: and gambling debts to the mob and he instead of 509 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: killing him, he basically was like, well, I can kill 510 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 2: anyone you want. And so he would get these letters 511 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 2: of envelopes that multiple people saw, including his sister Marilyn, 512 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: would name on them, and that that was why the 513 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: number was one hundred. That's so she doesn't believe he 514 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: was sort of one hundred because there was one hundred 515 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: women he learned there. She believed of one hundred because 516 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 2: of his ties to the mob and all the hits 517 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: that he did on their behalf. And that's what the 518 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 2: rumor is that maybe the six hundred and twelve FBI 519 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 2: page report that exists. 520 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: So that's a whole other level of corruption potentially, I 521 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: would think. 522 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: Right, that's the only thing for me that explains it. Right, 523 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: if he was an FBI informant of any kind or 524 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: an interesting person, then when he gets these charges of 525 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: these women that are beaten, there's just sort of something 526 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: in the file or someone that's saying they don't don't 527 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: worry about him too much, don't look too close, otherwise 528 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense. That's the only thing that ever 529 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: really to me. 530 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: They lived in like a trailer from what I remember, Right, 531 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: did they live in that yellow What was the house? 532 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: Like? Yeah, it's exact opposite of the story, like making 533 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: of a murder, making a murder? Right, the guy is poor, 534 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 2: and poor people are tend to be disenfranchised by the system. 535 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 2: This for this guy to live in the type of 536 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: place he did to be such a nuisance to local 537 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: law enforcement. 538 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: To be in. Because I saw there were just a 539 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: couple of different houses. I feel like I saw the 540 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: yea they grew up. 541 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 2: In a was it not a trailer home? You know, 542 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 2: a trailer home. 543 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: He's a hit man. Where's all the money? 544 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: Well, I mean he didn't have a job for years 545 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: and years and years. So the question is sort of 546 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: how did he support himself? And you know he he prostituted, 547 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: you know, he didn't He certainly didn't live a lavish life, 548 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 2: but he traveled around a lot. I mean there was 549 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: several years of his life where he lived on the 550 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 2: road for four years you know at a time. So 551 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 2: and he was he was known to be like the 552 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 2: world's worst gambler, like apparently he just never won as 553 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: what people want, friends said and stuff. So you know, 554 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 2: I think he gambled a lot of it away. Yeah, yeah, 555 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 2: but I don't think it was that much. I don't 556 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 2: know how much money it was. I think he was 557 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: sort of this you know, nobody who you know, got 558 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: scraps off the table for doing whatever he did. Yeah. 559 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: I have all these questions about whether or not you 560 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: think that Lucy made up the wells if you know 561 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: how you didn't sort of give up on it, and 562 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: now you come to us with this brand new information. 563 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: Well I can answer that question. I mean, basically the 564 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: I know that there was twenty three wells on that property. 565 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 2: At the turn of the twentieth century, there were these 566 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 2: very poor people living in this area, that's you know, 567 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 2: and they lived in sort of like caves even and 568 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: I know this sounds far fetched, but there's articles in 569 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: the Omaha paper about this, and even in the fifties, 570 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, almost like do you want to know how 571 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: the poor people live? Go up there and you'll see him. 572 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 2: And there was it was this article that was sort 573 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: of written about like the backwoods people. Right, So there's 574 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 2: always this like mythical place going back one hundred plus 575 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: years of people that are in the hills, people lived 576 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 2: in caves. So it turned in the twentieth century the 577 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 2: government was like, we're going to dig a well which 578 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 2: is one hundred feet down to the water about and 579 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 2: a cistern which is where they can put their water 580 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 2: and build these homes for people who were living off 581 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 2: the land and living in caves. That's true, that's documented, 582 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: and and so we know the wells are there, right, 583 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: So it wasn't really about whether or not the wells exists. 584 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: It's like, are there human remains down the well is 585 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: when Don called the current landowners said, hey, did you 586 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 2: ever find any human remains without the well? Is that? 587 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 2: Was that him laughing about it instead of or was 588 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 2: that him bragging Because there's a lot of people that 589 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 2: say Don loved to brag about his you know what, 590 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 2: what what he did? What I always believed for the 591 00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: longest time was that Lucy reappropriated her trauma memories of 592 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 2: her mom's being murdered, her mother, stepmother, and stepmother into 593 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: this story of the wells. I thought that it was 594 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: possible and likely that her father was some version of 595 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: a hit man, because I've heard that story enough to 596 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: believe it, and I believe that he's the type of 597 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: person that killed people. You know, his cousin told us 598 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: the story he washed him take a brick and just 599 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 2: bludgeon someone until they were almost, you know dead. So 600 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: we had all these stories and accounts of him being 601 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 2: incredibly violent. You know, he beat his wife and to 602 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: the point that she was almost dead and hospitalized, and 603 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 2: there's no reason why he wouldn't have killed his wives. 604 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 2: But I sort of tend to believe that because anytime 605 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: I asked Lucy about the moms, I'm really depressed. She 606 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 2: couldn't stay there for long before she switched to the 607 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 2: women in the well. And I just thought it was 608 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: some sort of like I can't face the fact that 609 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: he murdered my mom, and this is just what I 610 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 2: thought was sort of like, you know, was. 611 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: That of a background in psychotherapy yourself. 612 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 2: No, I did consult someone throughout the throughout the entirety 613 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: of making this and sort of would play clips and 614 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,399 Speaker 2: ask their advice and things like that. But now other 615 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: than having done some but I think, but I think, uh, 616 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 2: I think that I just don't know. And it's really 617 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 2: I really, you know, I don't think I'm like the 618 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: best when I'm trying to know things that I don't know. 619 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 2: I think I'm at my best when I just focus 620 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: on what I know. You know, I follow the lead, 621 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 2: follow the investigation, and try not to fill in the gaps. 622 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 2: Just follow what you know. Otherwise you can get and 623 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: kind of trouble with these things, because it's really hard 624 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 2: work to figure this stuff out, you know, even for 625 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 2: someone trained like Stuart Fillmore, who watched footage for us 626 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 2: and did everything, you know, it's it's incredibly difficult to. 627 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, better than me, My friend I don't know. 628 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: I I can't even imagine this journey that you've been 629 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,439 Speaker 1: on and I can help. So where just in your head? 630 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 1: I know this all's news just happened today. What now, 631 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: are you going to go back to this place? 632 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, if we can get access back to the land, Yeah, 633 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: we have to go test it. It's not it's not 634 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: you know, cheap to sort of run those kinds of 635 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 2: cordial tests. So I think it would be better off 636 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 2: digging it up. So it's just whether or not we 637 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 2: can get the access to do that. But you know, 638 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 2: certainly i'd be thrilled if local law enforcement took it on, right. 639 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,720 Speaker 2: I don't need to be the one doing this by any. 640 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 1: Means, right, So, in terms of other projects and other documentaries, 641 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: where does this fall? I'm just curious, Like, I don't know, 642 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what word to use it. Don't if 643 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: you enjoy obviously you love what you do, but would 644 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: you use this a satisfying one for you? I would 645 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,439 Speaker 1: think it would have been one of the less sort 646 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: of satisfying ones, only because it's there's still so many 647 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: questions and it seems that it was just so rough. 648 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 2: I went into this really being captivated by the story 649 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 2: of the family, story about the about the wives, and 650 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: I left with full satisfaction that that this this man 651 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 2: murdered his wives at least at least two. 652 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: Of them sisters had the closure that they needed. 653 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: Was Yeah, for me, that was that was really always 654 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 2: what it's almost about. But I said, like, for me, 655 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: what I like, I know, I'm I like a psychological thriller. 656 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 2: And I think that what this reminds me of was 657 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 2: just like we never will really we never really know 658 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 2: a person's mind, you know, and you can you know, 659 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: for me, to start it off as investigation to find 660 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 2: the truth and where it ended up was just a fascinating, 661 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 2: you know, step into our psyche, psyche of people who 662 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 2: were dramatized. So for me, that was there's so many 663 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 2: takeaways in that, right, Like, and I feel like endless 664 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 2: empathy for what the studied daughters went through, despite how 665 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 2: difficult they were with me, despite ing, you know, how 666 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: trying I was dealing with them. I mean, these are 667 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 2: deeply traumatized women. And yeah, I have I have. 668 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: I felt that too, I mean, and that's I guess, right, 669 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: that's your point is to try to get me to 670 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: feel it as well, and I did so congratulations. I 671 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: thought the whole thing was absolutely fascinating. 672 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 2: Thanks so much. We edit it and like rapid time. 673 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 2: I wishing a lot of these things have many more 674 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 2: months than us. So it was, you know, it was 675 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 2: a race to the finished to get it out in 676 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 2: a lower budget. But it's it's it's really cool to see. 677 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: We just got some you know, sneak into some numbers 678 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 2: from our agents and it's it's right up there. It's 679 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: it's really a lot of people are watching, so it's 680 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 2: very cool. 681 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad. 682 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 2: Thanks so glad. 683 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: Keep in touch with us please. 684 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 2: Thanks so much. I really appreciate the time by