1
00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:22,436
Speaker 1: Push it. This is a tough city to love. Yeah,

2
00:00:22,676 --> 00:00:24,916
Speaker 1: this is a city that hurts you, and to be

3
00:00:24,996 --> 00:00:27,516
Speaker 1: in love with it is like being in an abusive relationship.

4
00:00:27,556 --> 00:00:30,076
Speaker 1: Sometimes that's how I feel in this relationship with you.

5
00:00:30,316 --> 00:00:37,996
Speaker 1: I hope not. I hope not. I'm Khalil Jibra Muhammad.

6
00:00:38,316 --> 00:00:42,276
Speaker 1: I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white.

7
00:00:42,436 --> 00:00:45,356
Speaker 1: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist, and this is

8
00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:54,836
Speaker 1: some of my best friends are so yeah. So here

9
00:00:54,836 --> 00:00:57,236
Speaker 1: we are back with season two. We are going to

10
00:00:57,316 --> 00:01:01,116
Speaker 1: be talking about everything from politics to pop culture, and

11
00:01:01,156 --> 00:01:04,276
Speaker 1: we're gonna have guests on too. This season. History always

12
00:01:04,276 --> 00:01:07,116
Speaker 1: matters and everything we cover, and of course this is

13
00:01:07,236 --> 00:01:10,036
Speaker 1: an election year. We got mid terms. We're gonna be

14
00:01:10,636 --> 00:01:13,196
Speaker 1: talking on this show in the midst of the launch

15
00:01:13,196 --> 00:01:15,756
Speaker 1: of the presidential race. So there's going to be so

16
00:01:15,876 --> 00:01:19,436
Speaker 1: much to figure out and to invite so many best friends,

17
00:01:19,476 --> 00:01:21,676
Speaker 1: some old, some new to help us make sense of

18
00:01:21,716 --> 00:01:24,356
Speaker 1: the madness of the moment we're still living in. So

19
00:01:24,436 --> 00:01:28,236
Speaker 1: today's episode is really special. Khalil, we got to do

20
00:01:28,276 --> 00:01:32,596
Speaker 1: a live taping together in our hometown. The boys are

21
00:01:32,636 --> 00:01:36,676
Speaker 1: back in town. We went back to where it all began,

22
00:01:38,476 --> 00:01:41,876
Speaker 1: that's right. So it was actually on September eleventh, ye

23
00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:44,636
Speaker 1: and it was a crazy rainy day. There was a

24
00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:47,476
Speaker 1: torrential rain. There was also the Bears home opener. I

25
00:01:47,516 --> 00:01:50,396
Speaker 1: remember that we got caught in some traffic monsoon conditions.

26
00:01:50,396 --> 00:01:52,236
Speaker 1: But you know what they say about rain, like you know,

27
00:01:52,276 --> 00:01:55,316
Speaker 1: and rain for weddings is like a good sign. It's

28
00:01:55,356 --> 00:01:59,916
Speaker 1: a sense of renewal, promise of a fresh start. I

29
00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:02,916
Speaker 1: felt that way, perfect metaphor. We did the taping as

30
00:02:02,956 --> 00:02:06,716
Speaker 1: part of the Chicago Humanities Festival, and we got to

31
00:02:06,716 --> 00:02:10,116
Speaker 1: talk at this amazing venue, the South Sure Cultural Center,

32
00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:12,796
Speaker 1: you know, where we both spent time and as kids.

33
00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:15,556
Speaker 1: This just beautiful space that we sat in, like a

34
00:02:15,676 --> 00:02:20,116
Speaker 1: glass atrium, just about a block from Lake Michigan. You know,

35
00:02:20,236 --> 00:02:22,356
Speaker 1: even on that rainy day, once it cleared, like the

36
00:02:22,396 --> 00:02:25,716
Speaker 1: sun started to come in and just the space itself

37
00:02:25,756 --> 00:02:30,796
Speaker 1: felt magical. It's a place where for many decades some

38
00:02:30,876 --> 00:02:34,316
Speaker 1: of Chicago's elite Southsiders would go there to play golf,

39
00:02:34,396 --> 00:02:36,156
Speaker 1: and you know, it was not a place that was

40
00:02:36,156 --> 00:02:40,116
Speaker 1: actually welcoming to everyone, but it is today. And that's

41
00:02:40,156 --> 00:02:43,876
Speaker 1: what's so important about the Chicago Humanities Festival hosting it there,

42
00:02:44,196 --> 00:02:46,156
Speaker 1: and for you and I to be in that space

43
00:02:46,236 --> 00:02:50,036
Speaker 1: to not only talk about what it means to be chicagoing,

44
00:02:50,116 --> 00:02:54,116
Speaker 1: but to do it with our own hometown community very special.

45
00:02:54,716 --> 00:02:57,316
Speaker 1: So let's cut to the live tape. I mean, here

46
00:02:57,356 --> 00:02:59,956
Speaker 1: we are in reality, but let's go to the recording.

47
00:03:00,116 --> 00:03:13,156
Speaker 1: Let's do it just to place this moment in context.

48
00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:15,556
Speaker 1: We're here at south Shore Cultural Center. I mean I

49
00:03:15,596 --> 00:03:18,556
Speaker 1: remember walking by here as a kid. I literally spent

50
00:03:18,796 --> 00:03:22,716
Speaker 1: my earliest years at sixty ninth in Oglesby, which is

51
00:03:22,956 --> 00:03:25,556
Speaker 1: four blocks from where we are, just across the street,

52
00:03:25,916 --> 00:03:29,236
Speaker 1: at a place. It was a non discript apartment building,

53
00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:32,156
Speaker 1: but I went to a nursery pre k place called

54
00:03:32,196 --> 00:03:37,676
Speaker 1: Toddler's Inn. So Ben, Yeah, I grew up in south Shore.

55
00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:39,436
Speaker 1: So I grew up not too far from here and

56
00:03:39,796 --> 00:03:42,516
Speaker 1: played tennis here when it was still it was called

57
00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:45,236
Speaker 1: the South Shore Country Club, but wasn't really a country

58
00:03:45,236 --> 00:03:49,516
Speaker 1: club anymore. And actually people from my neighborhood helped preserve

59
00:03:49,556 --> 00:03:52,396
Speaker 1: it and then restore it. Yeah, there was sort of

60
00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:55,756
Speaker 1: a discussion about what would happen, what its next iteration

61
00:03:55,796 --> 00:03:58,196
Speaker 1: would be. And here we are. Yeah, it looks great,

62
00:03:58,676 --> 00:04:01,796
Speaker 1: you know, here we are in Chicago, and we're in

63
00:04:01,836 --> 00:04:05,196
Speaker 1: a city that's demonized all the time and that has

64
00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:08,796
Speaker 1: all sorts of population changes going on, and even with

65
00:04:08,876 --> 00:04:12,036
Speaker 1: a mayoral race, you know, heating up. There's so many

66
00:04:12,076 --> 00:04:16,076
Speaker 1: discussions about the city in its present form and its future,

67
00:04:16,596 --> 00:04:18,236
Speaker 1: and so this question of like, well, what does it

68
00:04:18,316 --> 00:04:21,396
Speaker 1: mean to be a Chicago and what is a Chicago identity?

69
00:04:21,956 --> 00:04:24,316
Speaker 1: And a way to come at that is just to

70
00:04:24,316 --> 00:04:26,076
Speaker 1: talk at least at the start of like what it

71
00:04:26,116 --> 00:04:28,996
Speaker 1: means to us. Yeah. Yeah, so our producers of the

72
00:04:28,996 --> 00:04:31,596
Speaker 1: show often tell us, like, our listeners only care so

73
00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:34,916
Speaker 1: much about Chicago. So since we're here, we get to

74
00:04:34,996 --> 00:04:37,156
Speaker 1: lean into that a little bit and actually talk about

75
00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:40,476
Speaker 1: our origin story. Yeah, so let's start with a Chicago

76
00:04:40,516 --> 00:04:43,836
Speaker 1: What is your Chicago origin story? Yeah? How did you

77
00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:46,876
Speaker 1: get here? Yeah? So you heard I teach at Harvard,

78
00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:49,356
Speaker 1: which is you know what you think it is really

79
00:04:49,396 --> 00:04:51,476
Speaker 1: snobby and arrogant and this sort of thing, but a

80
00:04:51,516 --> 00:04:55,036
Speaker 1: lot of smarts to everybody. That's how long it took

81
00:04:55,076 --> 00:05:00,596
Speaker 1: him to mention Harvard, Like that is the that's the

82
00:05:00,676 --> 00:05:08,436
Speaker 1: longest so far. It's a guarantee there it is whatever. Whatever. So,

83
00:05:08,436 --> 00:05:12,956
Speaker 1: So it came up because I was teaching just this week,

84
00:05:13,516 --> 00:05:16,916
Speaker 1: and we were talking about the fact that I happened

85
00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:22,316
Speaker 1: to be a third generation Chicagoan. So my parents were

86
00:05:22,356 --> 00:05:24,476
Speaker 1: born here. Shorty Ruff by the way, for a listeners,

87
00:05:24,516 --> 00:05:28,556
Speaker 1: since he regards as my mother's nicknames as a tough customer.

88
00:05:29,396 --> 00:05:32,236
Speaker 1: My mother was born here, her mother was born here,

89
00:05:32,716 --> 00:05:37,476
Speaker 1: and that's the third generation. And so it happens. My

90
00:05:37,636 --> 00:05:43,356
Speaker 1: great grandmother, Laura Oliver, married in the nineteen twenties a

91
00:05:43,436 --> 00:05:46,636
Speaker 1: man named Eugene Gavin. This is your mother's side of

92
00:05:46,676 --> 00:05:50,156
Speaker 1: the Fantasies, my mother's side of who migrated from Mississippi.

93
00:05:50,156 --> 00:05:53,556
Speaker 1: They both migrated from Mississippi. They could not marry there,

94
00:05:53,916 --> 00:05:56,476
Speaker 1: but they married here in the nineteen twenties. And so

95
00:05:56,756 --> 00:06:00,556
Speaker 1: I take a measure of pride of actually being basically

96
00:06:00,596 --> 00:06:02,516
Speaker 1: the sentence of people who got here at the turn

97
00:06:02,556 --> 00:06:04,836
Speaker 1: of the century, or not quite the turn of the century,

98
00:06:04,876 --> 00:06:08,916
Speaker 1: but in the nineteen twenties and therefore the early great migration. Yeah,

99
00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:11,076
Speaker 1: so you you have a lot of roots here, a

100
00:06:11,116 --> 00:06:16,556
Speaker 1: lot of routes. So I was born here and my parents,

101
00:06:16,596 --> 00:06:22,316
Speaker 1: who were in the audience wave Boston's, Yes, they moved

102
00:06:22,356 --> 00:06:26,356
Speaker 1: to Chicago in their early thirties. My father got a

103
00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:29,836
Speaker 1: job at the University of Chicago. So there they you know,

104
00:06:30,036 --> 00:06:32,636
Speaker 1: I'm I guess I'm like that make me a first

105
00:06:32,636 --> 00:06:37,196
Speaker 1: generation And and they stayed, you know, they moved here

106
00:06:37,196 --> 00:06:39,836
Speaker 1: and stayed, which is another sort of you know, cities

107
00:06:39,956 --> 00:06:44,076
Speaker 1: are about are measured in some ways by their um

108
00:06:44,436 --> 00:06:47,996
Speaker 1: you know, their their ability to attract people and attract

109
00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:53,916
Speaker 1: business and then to retain them, right um and so um.

110
00:06:54,036 --> 00:06:56,596
Speaker 1: You know you're talking about the black migration, and you

111
00:06:56,636 --> 00:06:59,596
Speaker 1: know before that, the you know, the beginning of the

112
00:06:59,636 --> 00:07:04,316
Speaker 1: twentieth century, and even before immigrants from Europe. Uh. And

113
00:07:04,396 --> 00:07:08,236
Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties, so many people from Mexico who

114
00:07:08,276 --> 00:07:11,236
Speaker 1: moved here, and you know, to the point that Latinos

115
00:07:11,276 --> 00:07:13,356
Speaker 1: are a third of the population. Now do you have

116
00:07:13,396 --> 00:07:20,036
Speaker 1: some Latino heritage? This is I'm just riffing here. So yeah,

117
00:07:20,076 --> 00:07:22,836
Speaker 1: and then and then i'd say that, uh, you know,

118
00:07:22,996 --> 00:07:26,996
Speaker 1: my wife and I had a kind of professional walk

119
00:07:26,996 --> 00:07:30,556
Speaker 1: about where we moved all over the country and decided

120
00:07:30,636 --> 00:07:33,796
Speaker 1: at some point about ten years ago that we wanted

121
00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:36,796
Speaker 1: to come back home and we wanted our kids to

122
00:07:36,836 --> 00:07:40,476
Speaker 1: be raised here around our family. And this is where

123
00:07:40,716 --> 00:07:43,036
Speaker 1: sort of you know, we wanted to make our stand.

124
00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:45,716
Speaker 1: You know, like when you you live in other cities,

125
00:07:45,716 --> 00:07:47,836
Speaker 1: there's a kind of there's a kind of great freedom

126
00:07:47,836 --> 00:07:50,356
Speaker 1: at times of not being rooted there where you don't

127
00:07:50,356 --> 00:07:52,356
Speaker 1: have to worry so much about the messy history, you

128
00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:55,356
Speaker 1: don't have to own it, and here you have to

129
00:07:55,356 --> 00:07:58,716
Speaker 1: own it, but the stakes are higher. Yeah. Yeah, so

130
00:07:58,996 --> 00:08:03,556
Speaker 1: I h I have moved from Chicago since essentially I

131
00:08:03,596 --> 00:08:06,596
Speaker 1: was twenty two years old, so unlike Ben Um, I

132
00:08:06,716 --> 00:08:11,196
Speaker 1: haven't been back, and I've been enjoying the city by

133
00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:14,036
Speaker 1: virtue of family and relatives who live here. My mom

134
00:08:14,076 --> 00:08:17,076
Speaker 1: lived here until quite recently her entire life had never

135
00:08:17,156 --> 00:08:21,596
Speaker 1: lived literally anywhere else. So I'm a little bit opposite

136
00:08:21,596 --> 00:08:23,996
Speaker 1: to Ben and that I chose not to come back

137
00:08:24,036 --> 00:08:25,956
Speaker 1: to Chicago. But is this a good place to make

138
00:08:25,956 --> 00:08:31,516
Speaker 1: your announcement at the return run from mayor? Yeah? Yeah,

139
00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:37,036
Speaker 1: well isn't everybody doing that? I mean to bring that

140
00:08:37,116 --> 00:08:40,396
Speaker 1: up inside Joe, because I said if I ever came

141
00:08:40,396 --> 00:08:42,476
Speaker 1: back Chicago, I'd want to come back to be mayor.

142
00:08:42,556 --> 00:08:46,956
Speaker 1: So this is actually this is actually real talk. But

143
00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:48,916
Speaker 1: but I want to say just one more thing about

144
00:08:48,916 --> 00:08:51,076
Speaker 1: the other side of my family, which is more famous.

145
00:08:51,596 --> 00:08:54,076
Speaker 1: And again, listeners of the show at least know this.

146
00:08:54,156 --> 00:08:58,636
Speaker 1: So it turns out that Ben lives today a couple

147
00:08:58,636 --> 00:09:02,076
Speaker 1: of blocks from where my great grandfather, Elijah Muhammad, who

148
00:09:02,236 --> 00:09:06,076
Speaker 1: was also a migrant from Georgia born in eighteen ninety nine,

149
00:09:06,196 --> 00:09:11,796
Speaker 1: arrived in Chicago sometime in the night thirties and ultimately

150
00:09:12,156 --> 00:09:14,556
Speaker 1: built the Nation of Islam, which all of you know

151
00:09:14,716 --> 00:09:17,436
Speaker 1: is part of the Hyde Park, Knwid area and where

152
00:09:17,676 --> 00:09:22,516
Speaker 1: Ben and Danielle's family currently live. And of course that's

153
00:09:22,596 --> 00:09:26,436
Speaker 1: another kind of Chicago story that makes not only the

154
00:09:26,476 --> 00:09:29,796
Speaker 1: city quite unique and interesting, but also makes this entire

155
00:09:29,876 --> 00:09:33,556
Speaker 1: area and thinking about a Chicago identity fascinating. Going something

156
00:09:33,596 --> 00:09:36,276
Speaker 1: we talked about when we were thinking about this show,

157
00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:40,436
Speaker 1: like where else in America could you imagine like Muhammad Ali,

158
00:09:40,916 --> 00:09:48,236
Speaker 1: Elijah Muhammad, Jesse Jackson, eventually Michelle and Barack Obama and

159
00:09:48,396 --> 00:09:52,876
Speaker 1: Harold Washington as notes of some of the most important

160
00:09:53,516 --> 00:10:02,356
Speaker 1: political debates movements in America. Pretty awesome. Hey, this is Khalil.

161
00:10:02,996 --> 00:10:05,276
Speaker 1: We need to take a short break. We'll be right back.

162
00:10:20,436 --> 00:10:23,636
Speaker 1: Welcome back to some of my best friends are I'm

163
00:10:23,676 --> 00:10:26,716
Speaker 1: doing that time space continuum thing and I'm not at

164
00:10:26,716 --> 00:10:28,916
Speaker 1: the live event. But now we're going to go back

165
00:10:28,916 --> 00:10:35,196
Speaker 1: to the live event from the Chicago Humanities Festival, and

166
00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:38,276
Speaker 1: so so we talked about, you know, what are our

167
00:10:38,356 --> 00:10:42,476
Speaker 1: Chicago origin stories. But there's a way where to feel

168
00:10:42,556 --> 00:10:45,476
Speaker 1: like there's also a consciousness about being a Chicago and

169
00:10:45,516 --> 00:10:49,516
Speaker 1: a kind of Chicago being sort of imprinted on your DNA.

170
00:10:49,716 --> 00:10:52,836
Speaker 1: And we were younger before people really got tattoos of

171
00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:55,876
Speaker 1: like the Chicago flag or anything like that or three

172
00:10:55,956 --> 00:11:01,476
Speaker 1: one two tattoos or seven seventy three or so, you know,

173
00:11:01,796 --> 00:11:03,836
Speaker 1: let's talk about that moment where we really sort of

174
00:11:03,876 --> 00:11:08,716
Speaker 1: started to think of Chicago as integral to our identity. Okay, yeah,

175
00:11:08,796 --> 00:11:11,356
Speaker 1: do it how you first? Okay, for me, it had

176
00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:14,516
Speaker 1: to do with driving. I could think of a specific moment.

177
00:11:14,556 --> 00:11:17,236
Speaker 1: I think it's the summer after high school, so this

178
00:11:17,276 --> 00:11:19,476
Speaker 1: is like nineteen eighty nine, and maybe it was nineteen

179
00:11:19,556 --> 00:11:22,996
Speaker 1: ninety and I had a job as a bagel delivery man,

180
00:11:23,236 --> 00:11:29,396
Speaker 1: I remember that. And then to have the white pickup truck. Then, see,

181
00:11:29,836 --> 00:11:34,756
Speaker 1: you had to you had to make it scary. I

182
00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:36,756
Speaker 1: had a job as a bagel delivery man and I

183
00:11:36,796 --> 00:11:40,036
Speaker 1: had to get up at five am, and it was

184
00:11:40,036 --> 00:11:42,196
Speaker 1: called the Bagel Nosh and it was a bagel store

185
00:11:42,476 --> 00:11:45,796
Speaker 1: on rush Street and Rush Street of nineteen eighty nine

186
00:11:45,836 --> 00:11:49,156
Speaker 1: or nineteen ninety was sort of like in transition that

187
00:11:49,276 --> 00:11:53,356
Speaker 1: if you're older, Rush Street signifies kind of, you know,

188
00:11:53,436 --> 00:11:56,396
Speaker 1: something a red light district or a sort of like

189
00:11:56,556 --> 00:11:59,396
Speaker 1: kind of sleazy a little bit, and today it's pretty

190
00:11:59,476 --> 00:12:02,916
Speaker 1: gentrified and ritzy. It was sort of both at that moment,

191
00:12:03,076 --> 00:12:05,796
Speaker 1: or like probably more on the sleazy side. And now

192
00:12:05,796 --> 00:12:07,596
Speaker 1: I'd get there at five am, and I'd have to

193
00:12:07,636 --> 00:12:10,396
Speaker 1: pull in an alley behind the shop and like flash

194
00:12:10,476 --> 00:12:12,596
Speaker 1: my brights to clear out all the rats who would

195
00:12:12,596 --> 00:12:15,956
Speaker 1: scurry away. And then I would load up the truck

196
00:12:15,956 --> 00:12:19,516
Speaker 1: with bagels and drive all over the city. And there

197
00:12:19,556 --> 00:12:23,356
Speaker 1: was a feeling of as a young person too, of

198
00:12:23,516 --> 00:12:26,596
Speaker 1: moving through the city at a time when there weren't

199
00:12:26,596 --> 00:12:28,996
Speaker 1: a lot of people there and where it felt like

200
00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:32,076
Speaker 1: I kind of had ownership of the city. It felt

201
00:12:32,116 --> 00:12:34,756
Speaker 1: like something out of like a Carl Sandburg poem, where

202
00:12:34,796 --> 00:12:41,356
Speaker 1: like this this Goliath which is asleep and and and

203
00:12:41,476 --> 00:12:44,156
Speaker 1: here I am, you know, seeing and part of the

204
00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:46,316
Speaker 1: mechanism that's going to be when it wakes, and you

205
00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:48,276
Speaker 1: know they're the only other people out there were other

206
00:12:48,276 --> 00:12:51,716
Speaker 1: delivery people, you know, the newspaper trucks and things like that,

207
00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:54,676
Speaker 1: and also traversing the city in a way that I

208
00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:57,796
Speaker 1: hadn't before, either of going through the loop, but also

209
00:12:57,956 --> 00:13:00,556
Speaker 1: like the south side and you'd have to come back

210
00:13:00,596 --> 00:13:04,036
Speaker 1: on State Street, down the State Street corridor of where

211
00:13:04,076 --> 00:13:06,476
Speaker 1: there were you know, used to be public housing for miles,

212
00:13:07,116 --> 00:13:10,236
Speaker 1: and I just felt like I got a better understanding

213
00:13:10,276 --> 00:13:12,996
Speaker 1: of the city, of being a part of it, of

214
00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:18,996
Speaker 1: its geography and its segregation. And yeah, I felt at

215
00:13:19,036 --> 00:13:22,956
Speaker 1: that point like like a kind of pride of place. Yeah. So,

216
00:13:23,196 --> 00:13:25,516
Speaker 1: you know, people often say that you have to leave

217
00:13:25,556 --> 00:13:29,196
Speaker 1: a city to actually appreciate what you've lost or what

218
00:13:29,276 --> 00:13:32,876
Speaker 1: you had, and I think of this kind of consciousness

219
00:13:32,956 --> 00:13:37,876
Speaker 1: Chicago consciousness of a slightly different way. So I was

220
00:13:37,916 --> 00:13:41,516
Speaker 1: about nine years old when my father moved to New York.

221
00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:44,396
Speaker 1: He'd left Chicago. He'd worked at Johnson and Johnson Publishing

222
00:13:44,436 --> 00:13:47,236
Speaker 1: as a photographer. He spent an entire career as a photojournalist,

223
00:13:47,636 --> 00:13:51,876
Speaker 1: but he got his start with Johnson Publishing, and he

224
00:13:52,036 --> 00:13:54,756
Speaker 1: leaves for Charlotte in nineteen seventy eight, land in New

225
00:13:54,836 --> 00:13:57,436
Speaker 1: York by nineteen eighty and he's still there. So I

226
00:13:57,556 --> 00:13:59,916
Speaker 1: visited him about nine years old for the first time,

227
00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:05,996
Speaker 1: and I'm visiting with his friends, his new New York

228
00:14:06,036 --> 00:14:10,236
Speaker 1: area friends who have kids, and the mom in this

229
00:14:10,636 --> 00:14:13,916
Speaker 1: relationship is keeping me for the weekend because by then

230
00:14:13,956 --> 00:14:16,316
Speaker 1: my father was a bachelor, and so you know, he's

231
00:14:16,396 --> 00:14:18,156
Speaker 1: keeping me for the summer, where I really spent a

232
00:14:18,196 --> 00:14:20,756
Speaker 1: lot of childhood summers from about nine to fifteen or sixteen.

233
00:14:21,396 --> 00:14:23,756
Speaker 1: And so I meet this brood of like kids of

234
00:14:23,796 --> 00:14:26,196
Speaker 1: all ages, younger than me, older than me. They welcome

235
00:14:26,236 --> 00:14:31,596
Speaker 1: me into their family and within seconds of talking to them,

236
00:14:31,716 --> 00:14:35,796
Speaker 1: someone's like, you have a funny accent. I was like,

237
00:14:36,036 --> 00:14:37,996
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? And they were like, you

238
00:14:38,076 --> 00:14:41,916
Speaker 1: just said ten And I was like what ten. They're like,

239
00:14:41,996 --> 00:14:45,396
Speaker 1: no ten. I was like, no ten. Anyway, it was

240
00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:50,196
Speaker 1: by Mississippi accent by way of Chicago that these New

241
00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:53,436
Speaker 1: Yorkers who were my peers as kids were picking up on.

242
00:14:53,796 --> 00:14:56,356
Speaker 1: And that was literally the first moment when I thought

243
00:14:56,356 --> 00:15:00,516
Speaker 1: to myself, holy smokes, like I sound different. Yeah, yeah,

244
00:15:00,556 --> 00:15:02,676
Speaker 1: and so it's it's then you had to be like

245
00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:05,276
Speaker 1: us and them, and I'm on team us. I'm on

246
00:15:05,356 --> 00:15:09,276
Speaker 1: team Chicago. Well it did make me very proud out

247
00:15:09,636 --> 00:15:11,516
Speaker 1: This is just did you did you do the thing?

248
00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:13,996
Speaker 1: Where you then like went home and like practice, So

249
00:15:14,116 --> 00:15:16,596
Speaker 1: you didn't say you said, Ken, Well, you know, I

250
00:15:16,636 --> 00:15:18,476
Speaker 1: wanted to get to Harvard eventually, so I had to

251
00:15:18,476 --> 00:15:20,556
Speaker 1: get rid of the accent. I mean, so so I

252
00:15:20,636 --> 00:15:23,316
Speaker 1: had something similar. I mean maybe everyone does who's from

253
00:15:23,396 --> 00:15:27,316
Speaker 1: Chicago where you travel? And maybe maybe this is even

254
00:15:27,356 --> 00:15:29,476
Speaker 1: more of a white thing where other where you meet

255
00:15:29,516 --> 00:15:32,356
Speaker 1: people and they're like, oh, you're from Chicago. I'm from Chicago.

256
00:15:32,436 --> 00:15:34,756
Speaker 1: And I would always call it like the double question, yep,

257
00:15:34,996 --> 00:15:37,876
Speaker 1: because the next question was where are you from? Right?

258
00:15:38,156 --> 00:15:40,316
Speaker 1: Not not from Chicago. They want to know if you're

259
00:15:40,316 --> 00:15:45,316
Speaker 1: from Deerfield or Wheneck or whatever. They didn't really meet Chicago, ye.

260
00:15:45,436 --> 00:15:47,796
Speaker 1: And so there's also that, you know, not just defining

261
00:15:47,836 --> 00:15:51,556
Speaker 1: it of another city, but of like suburb or city. Right. Yeah,

262
00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:54,796
Speaker 1: So I wanted to talk about the first time I

263
00:15:54,836 --> 00:15:57,756
Speaker 1: remember being pissed off as a Chicago in two and

264
00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:01,036
Speaker 1: that is when I was about ten years old. I

265
00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:04,556
Speaker 1: had to commute to Chatham from Regent's Park where I

266
00:16:04,596 --> 00:16:07,836
Speaker 1: lived by that age. And this was Regent's Park is

267
00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:13,316
Speaker 1: a fifty first and Lakeshore drive. To this day, you

268
00:16:13,316 --> 00:16:15,276
Speaker 1: can actually see it on a clear day from from

269
00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:20,236
Speaker 1: just outside this window. And I was especially going to

270
00:16:20,276 --> 00:16:23,276
Speaker 1: this elementary school at eighty third and Saint Lawrence called

271
00:16:23,636 --> 00:16:26,836
Speaker 1: Dixon Elementary, and my mom just wanted continuity. So rather

272
00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:28,916
Speaker 1: than me coming to go to Ray or something like that,

273
00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:31,156
Speaker 1: I stayed going to Dixon. So I had catched the

274
00:16:31,236 --> 00:16:35,316
Speaker 1: number one from Lakeshore Drive to Cottage Grove and the

275
00:16:35,436 --> 00:16:38,596
Speaker 1: number four Cottage Grow from fifty first to eighty third

276
00:16:38,596 --> 00:16:44,356
Speaker 1: STREETEP Deep Deep Chicago, Deep Chicago. And I remember one

277
00:16:44,356 --> 00:16:49,036
Speaker 1: winter day it was about negative forty degrees, as was

278
00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:52,716
Speaker 1: commonly true back in those days, in early eighties, when

279
00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:55,876
Speaker 1: global warming wasn't what it is today, and the bus

280
00:16:55,876 --> 00:16:59,116
Speaker 1: took forever to come. When it finally arrived, it was

281
00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:02,156
Speaker 1: so full with people it didn't even stop at the

282
00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:05,036
Speaker 1: like and this is a memory series in my marria.

283
00:17:05,076 --> 00:17:09,636
Speaker 1: I literally screamed out of frustration, picked up the nearest

284
00:17:09,676 --> 00:17:11,636
Speaker 1: rock I could find, and hurled it at the back

285
00:17:11,636 --> 00:17:14,756
Speaker 1: of the bus. I mean, this is not a prideful moment,

286
00:17:15,316 --> 00:17:17,436
Speaker 1: but it is the moment when I thought, like this

287
00:17:17,516 --> 00:17:21,996
Speaker 1: city sucks, right, like trying to get to school and

288
00:17:22,236 --> 00:17:25,756
Speaker 1: I'm freezing. So that was a story. The last one

289
00:17:25,796 --> 00:17:28,596
Speaker 1: I want to tell about being a Chicagoan. Is so

290
00:17:28,996 --> 00:17:31,116
Speaker 1: you heard about the Schomberg Center, which is a cultural

291
00:17:31,116 --> 00:17:33,596
Speaker 1: institution in Harlem, been around since in nineteen twenties, really

292
00:17:33,636 --> 00:17:37,836
Speaker 1: important place. But for anyone who's visited Harlem, has anyone

293
00:17:37,916 --> 00:17:41,476
Speaker 1: visited Harlem in this audience, Okay? You know Harlem mights

294
00:17:42,236 --> 00:17:46,476
Speaker 1: think that black Harlem is the as used to be called,

295
00:17:46,476 --> 00:17:50,956
Speaker 1: the Negro capital of the world, and therefore tremendous amounts

296
00:17:50,996 --> 00:17:54,036
Speaker 1: of pride in that place. And I kind of spent

297
00:17:54,836 --> 00:17:57,356
Speaker 1: the first couple of years as the director of the

298
00:17:57,356 --> 00:18:01,636
Speaker 1: Schaumberg in twenty eleven, kind of pushing back against that.

299
00:18:01,756 --> 00:18:04,196
Speaker 1: I mean, like literally from the stage of the institution,

300
00:18:04,316 --> 00:18:09,956
Speaker 1: reminding them that Harlem had never produced the political geniuses

301
00:18:09,956 --> 00:18:13,756
Speaker 1: and the political grates that Chicago had produced, going back

302
00:18:13,756 --> 00:18:16,676
Speaker 1: to Oscar DePriest, who was the first black person to

303
00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:21,356
Speaker 1: go to Congress after reconstruction, and that Adam Clayton Powell Junior, who,

304
00:18:21,356 --> 00:18:23,956
Speaker 1: of course, with the famous Congressman, didn't get there to

305
00:18:24,036 --> 00:18:26,156
Speaker 1: nineteen forty four, and then of course all the other

306
00:18:26,236 --> 00:18:28,436
Speaker 1: stuff leading up to the President Obama and all that

307
00:18:28,556 --> 00:18:32,596
Speaker 1: was just gravy. But I felt very prideful in Harlem

308
00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:40,436
Speaker 1: reminding them that my city was actually better. Yeah, so

309
00:18:40,516 --> 00:18:42,716
Speaker 1: that makes me think that there's another way that you

310
00:18:42,716 --> 00:18:45,276
Speaker 1: you get a Chicago consciousness or for us, like we're

311
00:18:45,316 --> 00:18:49,836
Speaker 1: as professionals, we've also studied Chicago. I've written about Chicago.

312
00:18:50,196 --> 00:18:53,316
Speaker 1: It's part of our work, and so maybe we just

313
00:18:53,356 --> 00:18:55,476
Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit, about approaching it the

314
00:18:55,556 --> 00:18:59,276
Speaker 1: city when it becomes an idea that you are grappling

315
00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:01,676
Speaker 1: with in that way. And one of the things I started,

316
00:19:01,916 --> 00:19:04,556
Speaker 1: as you know, you've written this book, tell tell everyone

317
00:19:04,556 --> 00:19:07,796
Speaker 1: about well I wrote my first book is about public

318
00:19:07,796 --> 00:19:10,956
Speaker 1: housing in Chicago. It's about Cabrini Green is called High Risers,

319
00:19:11,476 --> 00:19:13,796
Speaker 1: but and and working on it. I also start to

320
00:19:13,836 --> 00:19:18,796
Speaker 1: think about how little Chicago as a subject was part

321
00:19:18,796 --> 00:19:22,196
Speaker 1: of my education. Was that true for you too? Did

322
00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:25,676
Speaker 1: you ever have like, yeah, no, it's formally. I we

323
00:19:25,756 --> 00:19:31,516
Speaker 1: talked about this a lot, like situating ourselves as kids

324
00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:35,396
Speaker 1: in this important city we don't remember, like being taught

325
00:19:35,436 --> 00:19:38,596
Speaker 1: about this first black mayor in the moment, and the

326
00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:43,076
Speaker 1: significance of that as something transformational both for the national

327
00:19:43,116 --> 00:19:45,876
Speaker 1: politics but also for the meaning of the city itself.

328
00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:48,396
Speaker 1: Even though we literally lived, you know, in the same

329
00:19:48,436 --> 00:19:52,036
Speaker 1: neighborhood as Harold Washington did. Yeah, I don't even remember, like, uh,

330
00:19:52,276 --> 00:19:54,196
Speaker 1: you know when I say remember, meaning it could have happened.

331
00:19:54,236 --> 00:19:58,556
Speaker 1: I just wasn't paying attention, but being assigned books like

332
00:19:58,596 --> 00:20:04,116
Speaker 1: The Jungle or uh, you know, Upton Sinclair's muck Raking book.

333
00:20:04,796 --> 00:20:09,276
Speaker 1: Remember Richard write books? You know, Native Son, h a

334
00:20:09,316 --> 00:20:11,676
Speaker 1: Black Boy. I don't remember. Those were not books. It's

335
00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:15,316
Speaker 1: part of the curriculum. Um, you didn't take the African

336
00:20:15,356 --> 00:20:18,916
Speaker 1: American Literature elective at Kenwood. Is that part of it? Yea, yeah, yeah, maybe, Okay,

337
00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:23,476
Speaker 1: see you you you were you know, you were still wrestling.

338
00:20:23,516 --> 00:20:27,436
Speaker 1: I was still whiteness, Jewish identity kind of thing still.

339
00:20:27,756 --> 00:20:30,636
Speaker 1: So yeah, just it was not it was not so prevalent.

340
00:20:30,676 --> 00:20:32,076
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, part of it was like

341
00:20:32,156 --> 00:20:37,556
Speaker 1: just going back and devouring everything, studying the history of

342
00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:39,596
Speaker 1: the city and the literature about the city, and like,

343
00:20:39,636 --> 00:20:41,316
Speaker 1: you know, if you're going to be a Chicago writer,

344
00:20:41,516 --> 00:20:45,596
Speaker 1: like to try to learn everything about it. Yeah. And

345
00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:49,196
Speaker 1: I think it's something about the richness of everything we

346
00:20:49,236 --> 00:20:53,236
Speaker 1: experienced in a community of people nurturing us that made

347
00:20:53,236 --> 00:20:56,436
Speaker 1: it possible to look back and later see the city

348
00:20:56,436 --> 00:21:00,116
Speaker 1: as something worth knowing. So, for example, Ben's father as

349
00:21:00,156 --> 00:21:04,956
Speaker 1: the University of Chicago professor emeritus. We both were at

350
00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:09,396
Speaker 1: Reagenstein as kids, but by accident I ended up writing

351
00:21:09,396 --> 00:21:12,836
Speaker 1: about the University of Chicago in my work because it

352
00:21:13,036 --> 00:21:16,476
Speaker 1: was the first real place for the study of the

353
00:21:16,476 --> 00:21:18,876
Speaker 1: city and the study of the city as a place

354
00:21:18,876 --> 00:21:21,516
Speaker 1: of immigrant assimilation. The study of the city is quote

355
00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:27,036
Speaker 1: unquote back then race relations. And here we were literally

356
00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:30,196
Speaker 1: part of this community at products of it and then

357
00:21:30,276 --> 00:21:32,436
Speaker 1: later able to look back on it. Yeah, And I

358
00:21:32,476 --> 00:21:34,916
Speaker 1: think we write about it and other people do too,

359
00:21:34,956 --> 00:21:40,116
Speaker 1: because the city is endlessly fascinating, that the history and

360
00:21:40,196 --> 00:21:42,516
Speaker 1: the present is so frought with that history of you know,

361
00:21:42,596 --> 00:21:45,996
Speaker 1: problematic stuff and interesting things, and it's alive in so

362
00:21:46,036 --> 00:21:47,756
Speaker 1: many ways. I mean, I think about now that there's

363
00:21:47,796 --> 00:21:50,636
Speaker 1: this John Bird's curriculum in the public schools, right, you

364
00:21:50,636 --> 00:21:53,036
Speaker 1: want to tell them who John Burges, John Birds, the

365
00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:56,796
Speaker 1: police officer who you know, was was part of a

366
00:21:56,836 --> 00:22:02,516
Speaker 1: midnight crew and a station two hundred people. Yeah, tortured

367
00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:06,116
Speaker 1: more than one hundred men black men into false confessions,

368
00:22:06,596 --> 00:22:12,036
Speaker 1: and as part of reparations, the city agree to teach

369
00:22:12,036 --> 00:22:14,956
Speaker 1: this curriculum. That's that's you know, I think, I think

370
00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:17,516
Speaker 1: you know we we've talked about this before, even on

371
00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:20,236
Speaker 1: the show when we're talking about critical race theory that

372
00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:24,036
Speaker 1: I think both of us believe professionally and personally that

373
00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:27,596
Speaker 1: you have to engage with the really messy and difficult

374
00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:32,236
Speaker 1: history of a place and that is what is uh,

375
00:22:32,276 --> 00:22:34,236
Speaker 1: you know it is you know you talked about on

376
00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:37,036
Speaker 1: the bus in Chicago and hating the city. This is

377
00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:39,636
Speaker 1: a tough city to love. Yeah, this is a city

378
00:22:39,636 --> 00:22:41,876
Speaker 1: that hurts you, and to be in love with it

379
00:22:41,996 --> 00:22:44,916
Speaker 1: is like being in an abusive relationship. Sometimes that's how

380
00:22:44,956 --> 00:22:47,556
Speaker 1: I feel relationship with you. I hope not. I hope

381
00:22:47,596 --> 00:22:53,076
Speaker 1: not like it's dysfunctional. Um, and you know it, it's

382
00:22:53,116 --> 00:22:56,076
Speaker 1: it is all of the magnificent things. And it is

383
00:22:56,156 --> 00:22:59,996
Speaker 1: the richness of the history which is so so to

384
00:23:00,196 --> 00:23:02,716
Speaker 1: fraught with who we are as a country and as

385
00:23:02,716 --> 00:23:05,316
Speaker 1: a city that that makes us an important place and

386
00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:08,036
Speaker 1: a place to try to to make it better in

387
00:23:08,076 --> 00:23:11,276
Speaker 1: some ways. Yeah, and I think it's fair to also

388
00:23:11,636 --> 00:23:15,836
Speaker 1: think about some influences. So, um, we haven't talked about

389
00:23:15,836 --> 00:23:17,956
Speaker 1: this on the show, but I think it's fair to say,

390
00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:24,356
Speaker 1: like your brother, Jake, Jake Austen is here, basket and

391
00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:26,156
Speaker 1: we all went to I school together. Jake is a

392
00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:27,876
Speaker 1: couple of years older than us, but you know, we

393
00:23:27,956 --> 00:23:29,916
Speaker 1: had we had that experience. We all went to Kinnwood,

394
00:23:30,436 --> 00:23:34,716
Speaker 1: and your brother was in many ways a booster for

395
00:23:34,756 --> 00:23:37,836
Speaker 1: the city, um, long before you and I were even

396
00:23:37,876 --> 00:23:41,756
Speaker 1: thinking about these issues, um, both as a as a

397
00:23:41,876 --> 00:23:45,156
Speaker 1: zine editor and being able to describe the music scene

398
00:23:45,196 --> 00:23:47,396
Speaker 1: in the city, like I mean, I wouldn't pay that

399
00:23:47,436 --> 00:23:50,796
Speaker 1: close attention, but enough attention to know that this is

400
00:23:50,836 --> 00:23:53,836
Speaker 1: what Jake was doing. He began writing about the city.

401
00:23:53,956 --> 00:23:56,796
Speaker 1: He literally has a TV show called chick A Go Go.

402
00:23:58,596 --> 00:24:00,636
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't be more of a booster than that.

403
00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:04,716
Speaker 1: A theme song, yeah you want to sing it now,

404
00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:29,876
Speaker 1: but if in the podcast version of it is yea

405
00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:32,916
Speaker 1: and we'll lave it and it's fun. So so let's

406
00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:35,756
Speaker 1: let's talk about a harder subject, which is you know,

407
00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:39,916
Speaker 1: nobody really talks about Chicago now without talking about, say,

408
00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:43,316
Speaker 1: the violence, right, And you know, you're either when you

409
00:24:43,316 --> 00:24:45,436
Speaker 1: even talk about being a booster, you're sort of saying

410
00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:47,396
Speaker 1: there's more to the city than that, but you're actually

411
00:24:47,436 --> 00:24:49,956
Speaker 1: sort of responding to it or you're engaging with it,

412
00:24:50,396 --> 00:24:53,676
Speaker 1: and it really is part of every conversation here, and

413
00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:56,636
Speaker 1: I wanted to actually pick up on a theme because

414
00:24:56,636 --> 00:24:58,716
Speaker 1: you've sort of already talked a little bit about this.

415
00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:01,596
Speaker 1: But a lot of the work that I do as

416
00:25:01,596 --> 00:25:05,436
Speaker 1: an academic is around policing. And at one point, you know,

417
00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:09,076
Speaker 1: someone asked us we met someone earlier today, said you know,

418
00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:13,356
Speaker 1: like what inspired you to do the show? And the

419
00:25:13,396 --> 00:25:17,596
Speaker 1: short answer is that we had an opportunity through the Pushkin,

420
00:25:18,036 --> 00:25:20,396
Speaker 1: which is a company co owned by Malcolm Gladwell, the

421
00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:24,676
Speaker 1: journalist and writer, and Jacob Weisberg. But the idea of

422
00:25:24,676 --> 00:25:29,116
Speaker 1: the show came because I was doing academic work on

423
00:25:29,436 --> 00:25:32,116
Speaker 1: the criminal justice system I'd written about as a historian,

424
00:25:32,636 --> 00:25:36,516
Speaker 1: and I was doing work with other social scientists around

425
00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:40,516
Speaker 1: how to think about a different kind of policing. And

426
00:25:40,636 --> 00:25:45,116
Speaker 1: Ben was actually reporting on policing in the early days

427
00:25:45,156 --> 00:25:48,756
Speaker 1: of Black Lives Matter, sort of from the Michael Brown

428
00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:51,476
Speaker 1: moment to the Lakwan McDonald moment, and was on the

429
00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:54,716
Speaker 1: ground reporting around the city about various forms of activism

430
00:25:55,196 --> 00:25:58,156
Speaker 1: and talking about the tough stuff. Like for us, it

431
00:25:58,236 --> 00:26:00,476
Speaker 1: was not just the tough stuff and the questions about

432
00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:02,756
Speaker 1: like what's wrong with your city, but it was also

433
00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:05,476
Speaker 1: about trying to answer these tough questions and to think

434
00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:07,636
Speaker 1: about like what's the future of the city, Like is

435
00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:11,196
Speaker 1: this a moment for us in different capacities to talk

436
00:26:11,356 --> 00:26:15,596
Speaker 1: through what it means to solve for these problems. Yeah, yeah,

437
00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:18,796
Speaker 1: I mean I know that as a Chicago writer, I

438
00:26:18,836 --> 00:26:22,556
Speaker 1: am trying to push against the stereotypes of the city,

439
00:26:22,756 --> 00:26:24,756
Speaker 1: you know, the shy rack image, or we have a

440
00:26:25,076 --> 00:26:27,596
Speaker 1: there's a Republican running for governor now and he's been

441
00:26:27,916 --> 00:26:30,596
Speaker 1: he's been really pushing this idea of the Chicago as

442
00:26:30,636 --> 00:26:33,356
Speaker 1: hellhole of sort of adopting the language American carnage. This

443
00:26:33,516 --> 00:26:36,476
Speaker 1: is a very adopting the Trump language to sort of

444
00:26:36,516 --> 00:26:38,996
Speaker 1: you know, it's you know, it's also fear of crime

445
00:26:39,036 --> 00:26:41,636
Speaker 1: in Chicago and bail reform. But it's like it's an

446
00:26:41,636 --> 00:26:45,236
Speaker 1: easy dog whistle and it's probably even more explicit than

447
00:26:45,316 --> 00:26:48,716
Speaker 1: dog whistle um to rile up people. Yeah, I did.

448
00:26:48,836 --> 00:26:53,796
Speaker 1: I did a reporting uh project once not too long ago,

449
00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:55,956
Speaker 1: where I went around to twenty high schools in the

450
00:26:55,996 --> 00:27:00,196
Speaker 1: city and my idea was I would interview and profile

451
00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:03,836
Speaker 1: all the valedictorians of all these different high schools that

452
00:27:03,396 --> 00:27:07,636
Speaker 1: that that there is much representative of the city and

453
00:27:07,836 --> 00:27:10,596
Speaker 1: children in the city and then the public school system

454
00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:15,276
Speaker 1: as either victims or perpetrators of violence. Right, and you know,

455
00:27:15,316 --> 00:27:18,116
Speaker 1: in some ways much much more representative of you know,

456
00:27:18,156 --> 00:27:20,436
Speaker 1: most students. Yeah, and you know that was that was

457
00:27:20,436 --> 00:27:22,636
Speaker 1: the thing. It was amazing thing to even just like

458
00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:25,436
Speaker 1: to be inside twenty different high schools across the city.

459
00:27:25,996 --> 00:27:28,236
Speaker 1: So I take a much shorter version of like how

460
00:27:28,276 --> 00:27:31,156
Speaker 1: to defend against the negative stereotypes, and that is I

461
00:27:31,156 --> 00:27:33,436
Speaker 1: just tell people, Chicago's the greatest beach town on Earth.

462
00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:37,916
Speaker 1: Each town where where where else can you have access

463
00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:43,556
Speaker 1: to this amazing lake, like at just a crossing a bridge,

464
00:27:43,596 --> 00:27:46,796
Speaker 1: It's amazing. So yes, that that's the simple version. But

465
00:27:47,796 --> 00:27:51,196
Speaker 1: here we are, right, and here we are. M I

466
00:27:51,276 --> 00:27:53,796
Speaker 1: got here on Friday and on the hour and a

467
00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:56,476
Speaker 1: half drive, which was about as long as it took

468
00:27:56,516 --> 00:27:59,676
Speaker 1: to fly here from the East Coast two Hyde Park.

469
00:28:00,276 --> 00:28:04,316
Speaker 1: WBZ was reporting on the killing of a seventeen year

470
00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:07,676
Speaker 1: old blocks away from our high school. He was out

471
00:28:07,716 --> 00:28:10,756
Speaker 1: at lunch at a high school, stated high school student,

472
00:28:10,796 --> 00:28:13,596
Speaker 1: middle of the day at twelve thirty five. Yeah, and

473
00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:17,156
Speaker 1: also was killed in a parking lot on East End,

474
00:28:17,316 --> 00:28:20,676
Speaker 1: which is the very parking lot I crossed for ten

475
00:28:20,756 --> 00:28:23,796
Speaker 1: years of my life to leave my apartment building to

476
00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:26,916
Speaker 1: come to high school, to go anywhere else from Hi. Yeah, yeah,

477
00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:28,676
Speaker 1: I mean I've been thinking about this a lot of

478
00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:32,396
Speaker 1: just this young man. I think he just transferred to

479
00:28:32,396 --> 00:28:35,876
Speaker 1: the school this year, and that this beautiful start to

480
00:28:35,916 --> 00:28:38,196
Speaker 1: the school year. I've been walking around the neighborhood and

481
00:28:38,236 --> 00:28:43,836
Speaker 1: seeing Kenwood students out and about playing football and practicing

482
00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:48,436
Speaker 1: band and lacrosse, and just like just so energetic and

483
00:28:48,516 --> 00:28:51,916
Speaker 1: to think to think this his life is over. And

484
00:28:54,276 --> 00:28:56,796
Speaker 1: you know, as much as I'm saying of pushing against

485
00:28:56,796 --> 00:29:01,796
Speaker 1: the stereotype and writing about other things, this is a fact, right.

486
00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:07,876
Speaker 1: It happened, right, and and the reverberations are real. People

487
00:29:07,956 --> 00:29:10,596
Speaker 1: make choices at that point to leave the city, to

488
00:29:10,796 --> 00:29:15,036
Speaker 1: not send their kids to Kenwood High School to get away.

489
00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:17,836
Speaker 1: You know, why would I if that's where danger is.

490
00:29:18,156 --> 00:29:20,396
Speaker 1: And and then there's all the sort of like political

491
00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:23,876
Speaker 1: things that happen, you know, in this case, the school

492
00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:27,956
Speaker 1: board accusing Lori Lightfoot of not keeping children safe, of

493
00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:31,196
Speaker 1: you know, asking for more policing, all these other things

494
00:29:31,196 --> 00:29:35,156
Speaker 1: that we know intellectually, like there's no police officer that

495
00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:38,156
Speaker 1: can stop that crime. You can respond to it in

496
00:29:38,156 --> 00:29:39,796
Speaker 1: some way, and then you can say like maybe they could,

497
00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:41,956
Speaker 1: you know, hunt these people down, but that's it's not

498
00:29:41,996 --> 00:29:45,676
Speaker 1: a policing issue, but something something happened that that is

499
00:29:46,556 --> 00:29:50,036
Speaker 1: both real and undeniable and and really tears at the

500
00:29:50,116 --> 00:29:53,756
Speaker 1: fabric of our community. Yeah, yeah, Ben, Ben and I

501
00:29:53,796 --> 00:29:56,876
Speaker 1: have been talking a lot about the depopulation of the city,

502
00:29:57,476 --> 00:30:00,556
Speaker 1: um and and Ben's been doing some writing about it.

503
00:30:00,916 --> 00:30:04,356
Speaker 1: Uh more generally. Uh, it's personal. I mean I think

504
00:30:04,356 --> 00:30:06,796
Speaker 1: that's the point. It's personal. It's not just it's not

505
00:30:06,836 --> 00:30:10,756
Speaker 1: just our neighborhood, and it's not just the people who

506
00:30:10,796 --> 00:30:12,996
Speaker 1: are one degree removed. As you know, a year ago

507
00:30:13,076 --> 00:30:17,596
Speaker 1: there were a series of of just outrageous shootings in

508
00:30:17,756 --> 00:30:20,276
Speaker 1: Hyde Park that we actually talked about in one of

509
00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:23,156
Speaker 1: our episodes. And so here we are again. Many of

510
00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:26,836
Speaker 1: you know, My mom left the city after having purchased

511
00:30:26,836 --> 00:30:29,676
Speaker 1: a handgun for personal protection and told me, you know

512
00:30:29,756 --> 00:30:32,076
Speaker 1: that her her handgun was on its way, And I'm like,

513
00:30:32,556 --> 00:30:35,516
Speaker 1: what are you talking about. It's like she's in her

514
00:30:35,516 --> 00:30:39,316
Speaker 1: apartment on the citizen app and as far as she's concerned,

515
00:30:39,316 --> 00:30:42,716
Speaker 1: they're coming for her eventually. She's got a shaky hand. Yeah,

516
00:30:42,716 --> 00:30:49,276
Speaker 1: she's got yeah, this is not good. But I think

517
00:30:49,316 --> 00:30:51,156
Speaker 1: you know, so now she's with us, but I think

518
00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:54,716
Speaker 1: I think we don't want that, right. So the challenge

519
00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:57,876
Speaker 1: for us as people who do get to speak on

520
00:30:57,916 --> 00:31:00,276
Speaker 1: behalf of the city, whether whether we get it right

521
00:31:00,716 --> 00:31:03,476
Speaker 1: or wrong in terms of how we describe Chicago, the

522
00:31:03,596 --> 00:31:09,996
Speaker 1: challenge for us is to simultaneously be honest about what

523
00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:13,636
Speaker 1: these existential realities mean for people who live their lives

524
00:31:13,676 --> 00:31:18,076
Speaker 1: here every day and simultaneously push back against the bad

525
00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:23,436
Speaker 1: ideas that push us towards a past that is not

526
00:31:23,516 --> 00:31:26,316
Speaker 1: the source of the solution in this case. Yeah, yeah,

527
00:31:26,476 --> 00:31:28,836
Speaker 1: So when Ben talks about policing won't save us, like,

528
00:31:28,876 --> 00:31:32,196
Speaker 1: we do have to remember that in any instance police

529
00:31:32,236 --> 00:31:36,316
Speaker 1: are reactive to violence. They actually you know, unless we

530
00:31:36,316 --> 00:31:39,236
Speaker 1: could imagine a future where their checkpoints on every corner,

531
00:31:39,236 --> 00:31:41,596
Speaker 1: which did come up in some of the conversation about

532
00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:43,796
Speaker 1: what happened at the University of Chicago last year or

533
00:31:43,836 --> 00:31:47,156
Speaker 1: in the fifty Thursday there. But as we know, that's

534
00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,156
Speaker 1: not going to happen, and it shouldn't happen. So we

535
00:31:50,276 --> 00:31:53,196
Speaker 1: have to think about what do we want in terms

536
00:31:53,196 --> 00:31:57,076
Speaker 1: of an infrastructure that is healthier, that is safer, that

537
00:31:57,316 --> 00:32:00,156
Speaker 1: is more about economic security for people, and not to

538
00:32:00,196 --> 00:32:02,836
Speaker 1: say that those guys who killed this guy needed more

539
00:32:02,836 --> 00:32:05,396
Speaker 1: money in their pockets and it wouldn't have happened. But

540
00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:08,716
Speaker 1: what we're really talking about is a kind of society

541
00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:13,676
Speaker 1: we live and where guns are ubiquitous, poverty is growing,

542
00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:18,436
Speaker 1: and therefore the combination of people feeling like they're at

543
00:32:18,436 --> 00:32:21,356
Speaker 1: the short end of a stick and they're all operating

544
00:32:21,356 --> 00:32:24,596
Speaker 1: on short fuses. It's something we can do something about. Yeah, yeah,

545
00:32:25,116 --> 00:32:28,036
Speaker 1: and I think it's not. On the other hand, but

546
00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:34,156
Speaker 1: in moments like this, we also have to recognize that

547
00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:39,356
Speaker 1: there is some immediate need, that people are hurting and

548
00:32:39,356 --> 00:32:42,756
Speaker 1: they're full of fear and they need something, and then

549
00:32:42,796 --> 00:32:46,796
Speaker 1: in the void of good ideas, they'll be sort of

550
00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:49,876
Speaker 1: these these these old ideas that have been tried already

551
00:32:49,876 --> 00:32:53,956
Speaker 1: and we know don't work right um, and but that

552
00:32:54,036 --> 00:32:58,836
Speaker 1: there really is trauma they're suffering right right now, and

553
00:32:58,916 --> 00:33:03,156
Speaker 1: there's there's there's something you know, devastating and and I mean,

554
00:33:03,716 --> 00:33:06,276
Speaker 1: you know, another neighborhood. To many places, you know it's

555
00:33:06,356 --> 00:33:09,596
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it's it's why you know, it

556
00:33:09,636 --> 00:33:12,116
Speaker 1: happens a lot, But when it's very close to home,

557
00:33:12,556 --> 00:33:17,116
Speaker 1: you see it up close. Yeah, you have to recognize that. Yeah,

558
00:33:17,156 --> 00:33:19,916
Speaker 1: so let's leave folks with three good ideas or about

559
00:33:19,916 --> 00:33:23,516
Speaker 1: the future. Right, So three good ideas. One, we really

560
00:33:23,556 --> 00:33:26,076
Speaker 1: do have to make sure that we give young people

561
00:33:26,436 --> 00:33:31,196
Speaker 1: summer youth employment and massive recreational opportunities. Both of us

562
00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:35,476
Speaker 1: had them really important because we know, I'll just use

563
00:33:35,876 --> 00:33:40,716
Speaker 1: the social science research tells us that kids who actually

564
00:33:40,796 --> 00:33:43,156
Speaker 1: get to work at fourteen put money in their pocket.

565
00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:46,796
Speaker 1: Kids who they're no barrier to the recreational opportunities they

566
00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:49,796
Speaker 1: want or the ways to explore their own creative expression

567
00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:53,796
Speaker 1: do much better than kids who essentially have a lot

568
00:33:53,836 --> 00:33:56,996
Speaker 1: of free time. Two, we want to make sure that

569
00:33:57,036 --> 00:34:00,836
Speaker 1: we invest in violence interruption. Yeah, Chicago is really one

570
00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:03,316
Speaker 1: of the birthplaces for this idea, but Chicago has been

571
00:34:03,316 --> 00:34:06,316
Speaker 1: one of the hardest places for violence interruption to take root.

572
00:34:06,716 --> 00:34:10,396
Speaker 1: It is being exported to Jacksonville, Ball to more. New

573
00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:14,596
Speaker 1: York is one of the places with the most significant

574
00:34:14,636 --> 00:34:18,476
Speaker 1: investment in violence interruption. And so one of the things

575
00:34:18,476 --> 00:34:20,756
Speaker 1: that we know we don't know, we still haven't learned

576
00:34:20,796 --> 00:34:24,396
Speaker 1: exactly what set this off. But violence interrupters get ahead

577
00:34:24,396 --> 00:34:26,916
Speaker 1: of it. They actually do the work that police can't do,

578
00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:30,276
Speaker 1: which is that they have trust within those communities talk

579
00:34:30,316 --> 00:34:32,876
Speaker 1: people off the ledge so that they're not inclined to

580
00:34:32,996 --> 00:34:36,436
Speaker 1: use violence. Because, as public health experts day, violence is

581
00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:39,556
Speaker 1: a disease and it is contagious and once you catch it,

582
00:34:39,636 --> 00:34:43,356
Speaker 1: you're much more likely to express it. So those two

583
00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:46,316
Speaker 1: ideas about investing in our young people as well as

584
00:34:46,356 --> 00:34:50,676
Speaker 1: investing in actual things that work to keep people from

585
00:34:50,756 --> 00:34:54,836
Speaker 1: killing people, to me, are very productive and it's no

586
00:34:54,876 --> 00:34:58,916
Speaker 1: reason why Chicago can't invest in those rather than continuing

587
00:34:58,916 --> 00:35:01,276
Speaker 1: to have a conversation in this next mayoral race about

588
00:35:01,316 --> 00:35:04,876
Speaker 1: how much policing, how much more policing. Yeah, and we're

589
00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:09,276
Speaker 1: reminding ourselves. I was talking about the governor's race when

590
00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:13,076
Speaker 1: when the Republican candidate called Chicago a hellhold, there was

591
00:35:13,116 --> 00:35:16,476
Speaker 1: an online sort of social media response of you know,

592
00:35:16,716 --> 00:35:20,276
Speaker 1: post something about Chicago that it's you know, conflicts with

593
00:35:20,316 --> 00:35:22,196
Speaker 1: that that shows it's beauty and don't just show the

594
00:35:22,196 --> 00:35:26,156
Speaker 1: skyline and you know, this is a place full of

595
00:35:26,196 --> 00:35:29,036
Speaker 1: love and this is a place full of beauty, and

596
00:35:29,356 --> 00:35:32,356
Speaker 1: those things are not erased. They're they're side by side

597
00:35:32,836 --> 00:35:34,916
Speaker 1: with a lot of the problems, but they're they're they're

598
00:35:34,916 --> 00:35:38,116
Speaker 1: not they're not. They're not gone. They're always here too. Yeah.

599
00:35:38,596 --> 00:35:40,716
Speaker 1: So you know, we usually sign off the show in

600
00:35:40,756 --> 00:35:42,996
Speaker 1: the way that most people know, and I think we're

601
00:35:42,996 --> 00:35:44,676
Speaker 1: going to do the same. But I want to add

602
00:35:44,716 --> 00:35:46,956
Speaker 1: to that that not only that love you, man, but

603
00:35:46,996 --> 00:35:49,996
Speaker 1: I love this city. I love you, and I love

604
00:35:50,036 --> 00:36:04,596
Speaker 1: this city too. All Right. Some of My Best Friends

605
00:36:04,596 --> 00:36:07,876
Speaker 1: Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is

606
00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:11,276
Speaker 1: written and hosted by Khalil Jibron Muhammad and my best

607
00:36:11,276 --> 00:36:15,876
Speaker 1: friend Ben Austin. It's produced by John Asante and Lucy Sullivan.

608
00:36:16,236 --> 00:36:20,196
Speaker 1: Our editor is Jasmine Morris, our engineer is Amanda k Wan,

609
00:36:20,636 --> 00:36:24,316
Speaker 1: and our executive producer is Mia Lobell. At Pushkin thanks

610
00:36:24,316 --> 00:36:30,156
Speaker 1: to Leita Mulad, Julia Martin, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars,

611
00:36:30,516 --> 00:36:35,316
Speaker 1: Gretta Kone, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily,

612
00:36:35,716 --> 00:36:39,316
Speaker 1: is by fellow Chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young, from

613
00:36:39,316 --> 00:36:42,076
Speaker 1: his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out his

614
00:36:42,196 --> 00:36:45,716
Speaker 1: music at his website Avery R. Young dot com. You

615
00:36:45,756 --> 00:36:49,516
Speaker 1: can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods,

616
00:36:49,556 --> 00:36:52,116
Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at Pushkin

617
00:36:52,236 --> 00:36:55,996
Speaker 1: dot Fm. To find more Pushkin Podcast, listen on the

618
00:36:56,116 --> 00:37:00,116
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.

619
00:37:00,356 --> 00:37:02,796
Speaker 1: And if you like our show, please give us a

620
00:37:02,836 --> 00:37:05,396
Speaker 1: five star rating and a review and listen. Even if

621
00:37:05,436 --> 00:37:07,076
Speaker 1: you don't like it, give it a five star rating

622
00:37:07,076 --> 00:37:09,996
Speaker 1: and a review, and please tell all of your best

623
00:37:09,996 --> 00:37:13,156
Speaker 1: friends about it. Thank you. On this episode, we have

624
00:37:13,236 --> 00:37:16,476
Speaker 1: to give us special thanks to the Chicago Humanities Festival

625
00:37:16,916 --> 00:37:19,036
Speaker 1: for bringing us together and letting us speak at their

626
00:37:19,076 --> 00:37:22,156
Speaker 1: amazing event. That's right, and we also need to thank

627
00:37:22,396 --> 00:37:26,756
Speaker 1: Jake Austin, your brother, my brother, and the Goblins were

628
00:37:26,836 --> 00:37:30,276
Speaker 1: letting us use their music on this episode. Man, you

629
00:37:30,316 --> 00:37:33,476
Speaker 1: can watch Chicago go online, look it up on YouTube

630
00:37:33,636 --> 00:37:52,876
Speaker 1: and you know, definitely listen to the music and Chicago go. Wait. Wait,

631
00:37:52,916 --> 00:37:55,756
Speaker 1: So on the show that we recorded in Chicago, you

632
00:37:55,836 --> 00:37:59,556
Speaker 1: said that your great grandfather and your great grandmother couldn't

633
00:37:59,596 --> 00:38:01,916
Speaker 1: get married in the South. Yeah, man, how come they

634
00:38:01,956 --> 00:38:04,156
Speaker 1: couldn't get married? Well, what I forgot to say is

635
00:38:04,196 --> 00:38:06,996
Speaker 1: that my great grandfather was basically a white dude and

636
00:38:07,196 --> 00:38:10,516
Speaker 1: basically makes it Wait when you say, when you say basics,

637
00:38:10,556 --> 00:38:13,116
Speaker 1: what is basically a white through man? How well he

638
00:38:13,356 --> 00:38:16,876
Speaker 1: he looked white? He was white presenting, and his siblings

639
00:38:16,916 --> 00:38:21,876
Speaker 1: passed as white, so basically his whole family considered themselves white. Dude,

640
00:38:22,476 --> 00:38:25,396
Speaker 1: you you are talking about like running for office in

641
00:38:25,476 --> 00:38:28,516
Speaker 1: Chicago or in Illinois, and you could pull this Barack

642
00:38:28,516 --> 00:38:32,996
Speaker 1: Obama shit of being like my my great white great grandfather.

643
00:38:33,476 --> 00:38:35,956
Speaker 1: Like you gotta use that. You gotta use that. You can't.

644
00:38:36,036 --> 00:38:38,836
Speaker 1: You gotta like put that forward, like that is power. Yeah,

645
00:38:38,916 --> 00:38:41,356
Speaker 1: like you gotta you could have like only in America

646
00:38:41,476 --> 00:38:44,676
Speaker 1: can the great grandson of a white dude from Mississippi,

647
00:38:44,876 --> 00:38:48,516
Speaker 1: my white great growndfather and my