WEBVTT - Next Trial of Texas AG & UAW Strike 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.360 All Rise. The Court of Impeachment of the Texas Senate 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:14.640 is now in session. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.479 Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton's eight year tenure as the 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.440 state's top law enforcement officer has been marked by public 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.920 scandals and criminal charges. The toughest test of his political 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.720 resilience came when he was impeached by fellow Republicans in 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:36.080 the House over allegations including bribery and corruption. Paxton denied 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.680 any wrongdoing and said the impeachment was a political sham 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.320 orchestrated by his opponents. And after a ten day trial. 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:49.480 For being fourteen ya's sixteen nays, a finding of acquittal 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.640 is entered as to Article one, and that was the. 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:58.520 Vote on all sixteen charges, a resounding acquittal that puts 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:02.240 back into office and attorney general, who's facing trial on 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:07.800 felony securities fraud charges, remains under an FBI investigation and 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.480 could be disbarred in ethics proceedings brought by the Texas 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.959 State Bar Of course, Democrats and Republicans had strikingly different 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:21.360 responses to Paxton's acquittal. Here's Democratic State Representative Anne Johnson 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.920 and Republican state Senator Bob Hall. The Republicans in the 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:29.160 Texas Senate just returned him to the office of top cop. 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:32.320 I will rely on what I said on the floor 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:33.639 of the Texas Help House. 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:35.520 God help us. 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.640 When you talk about impeaching someone, destroying their life, taking 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:43.880 them out of office. If they've done something and there's 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:47.280 evidence for it, that needs to happen. What we don't 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.480 need to have or sham investigations. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:55.800 Joining me is Madlin Meckelberg Bloomberg Texas Legal reporter. Madeline 0:01:55.840 --> 0:02:00.360 start by telling us about the articles of impeachment broadly, 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.080 what was he accused of so. 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.800 Ken Paxton was impeached by the Republican dominated House in 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.920 May of this year on twenty charges that spanned the 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.840 various allegations raised since he took office as Attorney General 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:21.560 in twenty fifteen. They talked specifically about allegations raised by 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.880 top staffers in the Attorney General's office who reported Paxton 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.040 to the FBI for alleged bribery. They all really center 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:34.560 on Paxton's relationship with a friend and political donor named 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.560 Nate Paul, who's a real estate developer in Austin and 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:42.320 he's been accused of using his office to aid Paul, 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:47.160 both in terms of turning over potentially confidential law enforcement 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.360 investigation information to Paul, who was under an FBI probe 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.520 at the time, and issuing opinions that would favor Paul 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.040 in some of his proceedings. And so there's twenty different 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.360 articles that go into different facets, but this relationship is 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:03.679 really what's at the heart of them. 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.360 And we should note that Nate Paul has been indicted 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:12.120 on charges of making false statements to influence financial institutions 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.440 over loan applications, and he's pleaded not guilty. Now, going 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.800 back to the impeachment trial, can you give us some 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:23.560 of the highlights of the evidence against Paxton? What stood 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:24.119 out to you? 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.079 I think something that really stood out from these two 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:32.320 weeks proceedings was consistent testimony from top employees in his 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.280 office who said they told him time and time again 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.360 that they were concerned about his actions. We heard from 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.440 people who said that they had private conversations with him, 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.160 who called meetings with him to tell him that they 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:47.640 were concerned that what he was doing was stepping over 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.120 the line. Something that's really key in the case here 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:56.800 that gets into this bribery allegation is his alleged extramarital affair. 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.360 One of the accusations is that Nate Paul hired the 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.080 woman with whom he was allegedly having an affair and 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.480 kept her on his payroll, and in turn, Paxton was 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.000 performing these acts in his office to benefit Paul. We 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.960 heard from his former chief of staff in the office 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.040 who talked about how this relationship affected the staff and 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:21.280 how these actions that Pat Paxton was taking had impact. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.039 And she talked about feeling that people were uncomfortable fielding 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.040 phone calls from Paxton's wife and having to make certain 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.640 accommodations for him and this relationship. I think that was 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:33.960 a really compelling piece of testimony that we heard. 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.440 What was the defense to those allegations. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:42.320 The defense called witnesses and they cross examined the prosecution's 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.760 witnesses and went line by line trying to depute these claims. 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.680 But I think the big picture from them is that 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:53.360 this is a politically targeted attack at Ken Paxton. They 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.200 say none of the actions he took violated the law. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.640 All of the things were things that he was allowed 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:01.920 to do within his power or as attorney general. One 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.800 thing that was interesting during the proceedings in addition to 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.080 allegedly hiring this woman who was part of the affair 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:13.760 with Paxton, but the prosecutors claim that Paxton had renovations 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.320 done at his home that were funded by Paul and 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:20.279 that was another element of the bribery allegations, and his 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.720 defense were was really focused on that point. During the proceedings, 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:28.080 they pulled up pictures of his kitchen that was allegedly renovated, 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.520 and they confirmed that the countertops had actually not been 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.880 changed out at this time, that supposedly the renovations were 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.440 paid for, and they showed invoices of him making this payment. 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:41.400 That was a big victory, I think for the defense 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.719 during the proceeding, but I think broadly speaking, they cast 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.120 this as a political witch hunt against Paxton who did 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:48.600 nothing well. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.880 Paxton didn't testify, and he wasn't even there for most 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:54.440 of the trial. 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.000 That's correct. He appeared on the first day to plead 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.920 not guilty to all of the charges, and then he 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.400 appeared briefly at the end of the proceedings, but he 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.360 was not present in the chamber and the court decided 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.000 that he did not have to testify. What's significant about 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.160 his absence is that the person who was present and 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.080 had to listen to all of these allegations was his wife, 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.640 who was a state senator herself, Angela Paston. She was 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.880 not allowed to vote on any decisions during the trial, 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.600 but she did have to be there during the court 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.560 proceedings to listen to all of the testimony and evidence. 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.960 Did you find out what his strategy was of not 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:34.640 even Deigny to appear. 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:37.960 Oh, we didn't learn much about how that fit into 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.240 his broader strategy. But I think the goal for his 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.000 defense was clear here, and that was to cast this 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:48.320 as a mutiny by some staffers in his office who 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.560 wanted to take over as attorney general. Potentially, that was 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.160 something they brought forward. They said, this is all a 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.880 political ploy. They tried to create this idea that there 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.560 was some kind of happening about who should be leading 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.160 the state's law office in this way. But we didn't 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.760 hear from Pakistan. We heard from people close to him 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:12.080 in the office, and most of the witnesses for the 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:16.000 prosecution were former employees who spoke to his conduct during 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:20.080 the period alleged. When the defense did call witnesses, they 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.680 asked four current members of the Attorney General's office to testify, 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.840 including one of the people that oversees the Open Records Division, 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:33.160 and folks who could speak to what they said was 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.520 Paxton's correct behavior while he was in office, But we 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:38.840 didn't get to hear from him himself. 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.960 Tell us about the vote for a conviction. Twenty one senators, 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.720 which represent two thirds of the chamber, would have had 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:47.960 to vote for Paxton's conviction. 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.400 That's exactly right. And this chamber, just like the Texas House, 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.840 is dominated by Republicans, so there were nineteen Republicans, which 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.600 would mean that some Republicans would have to vote in 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.600 favor of conviction in order to achieve a conviction at 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:04.680 the end of this. But what happened. What we saw 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.560 was consistently a party line vote, with all Democrats voting 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.240 in favor of conviction on most of the articles and 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.240 most of the Republicans voting in favor of acquittal on 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:18.080 all the articles. Only two Republicans in the Chamber ever 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:22.000 voted to convict on a single article, and the process 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.800 itself was a little bit confusing. Some of the witnesses 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.280 talked about this experience of seeing rules both for criminal 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:33.120 and civil proceedings being used in this trial, and so 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.080 the vote at the end of the day there wasn't 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.360 one single vote. All of the members voted individually on 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.600 each of the articles pending against him, and so we 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.000 saw some variation, but at the end of the day 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.280 it was a largely party line vote, with just two 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.760 Republicans ever, voting to convict on two of the articles. 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:54.480 I understand that Trump surrogates and allies tried to pressure 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:59.920 Republican senators not to impeach Paxson and posted names and 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.959 phone numbers of potential impeachment swing voters. 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.840 Do you know what they were doing behind the scenes. 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.800 That's right, There was a really big pressure campaign around 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.280 this entire proceeding. Obviously, Ken Paxton is a loyal ally 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.559 of our former president who spoke on his behalf as himself. 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.000 But then we did hear reports of these pressure campaigns 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.920 that you're talking about. There were reports we saw of 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.520 an effort to have online influencers pay people to post 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:34.120 on behalf of the Attorney General advocating for him, and 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:38.920 we certainly saw phone numbers being circulated, senators receiving phone calls. 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.679 But I think in addition to that campaign, I mean, 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.719 this is the defining political site I think of this 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.600 period in Texas politics. There's so much a play here. 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.600 Ken Paxson's been under indictment since twenty fifteen, and so 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.320 most of the allegations that we were talking about in 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.680 this impeachment proceeding have been known publicly, have been known 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.560 by the members for the duration of his tenure as 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:05.320 Attorney General, and it all culminated in this fight. So 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:07.640 I think the political pressure has been mounting from the 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:10.800 very beginning and really intensify it as a trial date 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:11.520 group closer. 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.520 Coming up next, we'll talk about the other legal cases 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.920 that Paxton is facing. You're listening to Bloomberg. I've been 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.960 talking to Bloomberg Texas legal reporter Madlen Mecklberg about the 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.520 acquittal of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton after a nine 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:26.920 day impeachment trial. 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:28.559 So Paxton is. 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.160 Back in office as the state's top law enforcement officer, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.400 but he's facing other legal problems. 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.200 That's right, he's been reinstated as attorney General. I think 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.920 there's a lot of eyes now on what happens next. 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.280 How do you go back to that office after going 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.640 through this like really public ordeal where a lot of 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.960 details were shared about your alleged conduct. And then he's 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.840 got other legal battles regarding his conduct that he still 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.640 has to fight. Like I mentioned, he's been under indictment 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.200 that's twenty fifteen or security fraud in a case that 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:04.559 is yet to go to trial. It's been delayed significantly 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:09.000 by these different pre trial squabbles over venue and such. 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:11.240 But I think we're going to get a date on 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.319 a trial very soon in that case. And he's also 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.480 tied up in some disciplinary proceedings involved in the state 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:23.160 bar of Texas who accused him of professional misconduct for 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.400 his efforts to try to overturn the twenty twenty presidential 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.400 election results. And there's an ongoing federal probe into his 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:34.240 conduct that was prompted by the whistleblowers who are behind 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.760 some of these impeachment claims, So we could still see 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.720 charges them from that. So while this was a significant step, 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.480 it's not the final word on Paxton's legal saga. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:49.200 Those two state securities fraud charges, he was indicted on 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.760 those just months after he took office in twenty fifteen, 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.080 and it's always surprised me that that hasn't gone to 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.440 trial yet. How has he managed to avoid trial for 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:00.200 a year. 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.440 That's a great question. There's been quite a few skirmishes 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.600 ahead of this trial date. I think a key one 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.600 was venue where the case should be tried, either in 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.720 Houston or in his home county of Colin County. There 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:18.160 have been objections raised to the prosecutor bringing the case, 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.000 and all of these disputes have gone through a full 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.079 appeals process on their own, going up to the top 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:28.920 state appeals court in Texas, and they caused significant delays. 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.360 I think finally the state appeals court said that the 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:36.080 case can proceed in Harris County. There was a date 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.120 here in state for Paxton in the case just before 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.680 the impeachment proceedings began, and the judge said, once those 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.319 proceedings wrap, she's ready to get this case moving again 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:47.200 in Harris County. 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:52.480 And as you said, there is an investigation by the 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:57.040 FBI and the Justice Department's Public Integrity Section. Is that 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.320 on the same allegations that were to testified to in 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:02.600 the impeachment trial. 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:08.000 That's right. So these top employees in Paxton's office, who 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.360 we call the whistleblowers, they reported Paxton's conduct to the FBI. 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.920 As it relates to advancing causes on behalf of his 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.200 friend and political donor Nate Paul, and the FBI and 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.959 the DOJ they've been investigating. We haven't seen the result 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.280 of that investigation up to this point, but those cases 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.000 are ongoing as far as we're aware. 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.560 And there's a civil suit by those whistleblowers against Paxton. 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:37.920 That's right. The whistleblowers stewed Paxton under the state's whistleblower statute, 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.520 saying that they were retaliated against and in some cases 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:46.000 terminated because they reported his behavior. And that case is 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.760 actually what prompted this impeachment inquiry to start with, because 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.880 Paxton and the whistleblowers had struck a three million dollar 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.480 settlement agreement in the case, but in order to fund 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.440 that settlement agreement, Packs then needed state lawmakers to allocate 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.280 money towards that effort. State lawmakers said they weren't prepared 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.840 to allocate that money until they investigated the claims behind 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.080 the lawsuit, which is what prompted the investigation that led 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.160 to the drafting of the impeachment article. 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.680 Then he's also accused of professional misconduct by the state 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.160 bar of Texas, and he could be disbarred in that proceeding. 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.320 That's correct, that's a civil proceeding that's happening right now. 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:32.840 Despite the impeachment, all the public scandals, the criminal charges 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:37.520 he's still facing, some political experts think that he could 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.920 reach prominence on the national political stage. 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.400 I think that's totally fair. I mean, from the beginning, 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:49.080 Puxton's reputation has been built on being a conservative agitator 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:53.760 who does the Biden administration over everything that they do, 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.680 and he's worked to align himself with former President Donald Trump, 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.520 who we saw goats through a similar thing during his presidency, 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.960 being acquitted in impeachment cases and only serving to boost 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.760 his reputation. And I think that that's exactly what we're 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.520 going to see happen here with Paxton, who's going to 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.640 certainly be emboldened by this outcome. I think we're still waiting, 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:18.800 kind of with bated breast to see what his first 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.240 moves they're going to be now that he's been reinstated 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.840 to the office. But I think it's certainly fair to 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.760 say that this has only helped to bolster his reputation 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:27.840 within his own party. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.600 That's an appropriate comparison to Trump, and just to be 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.960 clear he was re elected last year to a third 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:39.880 term despite all these criminal and ethical allegations. Was it 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.440 by a wide margin or a narrow margin? 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.120 That's exactly right, And that was a point that we 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.320 heard from Paxton's defense council throughout the proceedings. They said, 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.640 Texas voters knew about these allegations, and they didn't care. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.840 They elected him anyway, and so why should the state 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.760 Senate overturn that? Why should they overturn the will of 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.840 the voters. I was elected by a large margin in 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:07.040 the general election campaign, but actually last cycles primary was 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.400 the first time we saw some very strong contenders who 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:15.000 challenged him in the Republican primary, including George P. Bush, 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.800 a descendant of the Bush political dynasty in Texas, and 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.800 Congressman Louis Gohmer and former Texas Supreme Court Justice Eva 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.520 Guzman challenged him. That primary went to a runoff, but 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.760 Paxton secured the nomination for his party there. But it 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.040 was kind of the biggest political test of the impact 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.680 of these allegations against him until we got to this 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:36.800 impeachment proceeding. 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.520 Well, a lot more to come with Ken Paxton's legal troubles, 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.520 and I know you'll be following them for us. 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:43.920 Madline, thanks so much. 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:48.360 That's Bloomberg Texas legal reporter Madlin Mecklberg coming up next 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.040 on the Bloomberg Law Show. The ua W strike as 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:56.160 automakers layoff more union workers, the question is whether the 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.960 union's aggressive stance will work. You're listening to Bloomberg. 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.360 It's exciting, but very scary because the unknown. You don't 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.120 know when you're going to get that full paycheck again. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:07.439 You don't know when you're going to get back in 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:08.240 there to work again. 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.040 Tonia Sullivan is a third generation auto worker at Ford. 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.360 She's one of the nearly thirteen thousand workers on strike 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.160 against the Big three automakers, and as the strike enters 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.760 its fifth day, GM and Stilantis laid off more than 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:28.320 two thousand additional union workers. Marcel Edwards has worked for 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:32.600 Ford for thirty five years and says, though there's some nervousness, 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.800 the striking workers support each other. The nervousness about the 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.720 strike right now, it's just the uncertainty. 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.639 But we believe in fame, We believe in this membership. 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:45.440 We believe in. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.320 Our elected officials downtown to make sure that we come 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:53.000 make with a contract that's respectable, and UAW president Sean 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.280 Faine told workers in a video that he'll call on 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.240 more members to walk away from the job if there's 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.600 no major progress and talks by the end of the week. 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.679 We've been available twenty four to seven to bargain a 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:11.480 deal that recognizes our members' sacrifices and contributions to these 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.960 record profits. Still the Big three failed to get down 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:16.800 the business. 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.000 My guest is labor law expert Michael Duff, a professor 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:23.240 at the Saint Louis University School of Law. Last year, 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.439 public approval for unions reached its highest level since Lyndon 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.200 Johnson was president. Sixty seven percent of Americans approve of them. 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.800 Have unions been making a lot of inroads? 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.240 Well, what I tend to focus on when having this 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:42.560 conversation with my students is the number of private sexist 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.760 employees unionized throughout the country. Right. So, a lot of 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.960 time we get union activity, we get popular approval, which 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.880 is better than popular disapproval from the perspective of unions. 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:56.879 But then we turn around and we look at the 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:02.560 total number of employees presented by a union, and we're 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.600 stuck at a number in the low six percent, right, 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.560 so six point one, six point three, six point four. 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:13.320 So my guarded answer is yes, I do think unions 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.919 have been making inroads with respect to the attitude that 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.560 the general public has to them, but so far that 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:25.080 has not translated into people actually joining unions, So it's 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:26.199 kind of a mixed picture. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.439 UAW President Sean Fain. I want to talk about the 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:35.160 way he's framed these negotiations as a broader struggle. He said, 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.720 it's the battle of the working class against the rich, 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.400 the haves versus the have nots, the billionaire class against 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:42.520 everyone else. 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:44.360 What do you think of that framing? 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.960 So I come from a blue collar background in a 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.800 prior to life, I was a blue collar worker in 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.040 the airline industry for a number of years. I didn't 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.679 go to law school until my thirties. I was a 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.199 teamster shop steer for a number of years. And I 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:04.880 would say that that rhetoric resonates with me as somebody 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.199 from that class and somebody who has gone through on 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:12.040 a personal level labor structure. I think, you know, to 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.000 be honest, we have to look at that and say, well, 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.919 there's a generation of people, people of roughly my age 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:21.560 or a little bit younger who would be very put 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:26.679 off by that language that would seem extremely corrosive, not 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.800 tending to lead to agreements and so forth. Now we 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:35.480 have younger people coming up through the ranks of organized labor, 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.560 and the sort of precariousness that a lot of them 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:43.520 are facing, I think makes the rhetoric almost suddenly appropriate, 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.399 almost unbelievably to those of us who have been involved 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.560 studying the labor movement for the last few decades. So 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.400 what I think of it is that it matches I 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:58.160 think the enormity of some of the structural changes that 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.320 we see going on in the economy for workers. 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.680 What about this so called stand up strike targeting work 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:08.280 stoppages at plants. 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.240 Well, I think to the outside observer, a lot of 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:16.160 the sounds are pretty esoteric and strange, But actually from 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.000 a legal perspective, it makes sense, right, because once you 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:22.240 begin to learn a little bit about labor law, you 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.000 find out pretty quickly that unions strike at their peril, 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:28.520 and the reason they strike at their peril is that 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:33.040 if employees are striking over economic subjects of bargaining, that's 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:35.879 the phrase of art. So you're not paying me enough, 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.879 I need more contribution to healthcare from you, mister and 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:44.040 his employer. If they are economic subjects that are sort 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.160 of fomenting the conflict between the union and the player, 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:51.280 employees go on and strike, they can be permanently replaced. 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:54.919 And that's sort of the animating principle behind a lot 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:58.159 of what's going on here. What permanent replacement means is 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.320 that you go out on strike over an economic subject, 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.960 you can't be fired, but we have to be able 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.239 to attract people to do the job that you're no 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:12.040 longer doing because you're on strike, and we can't very 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.920 well go to this prospective employee that we want to 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:18.159 take your place and say, well, we're only going to 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.680 temporarily hire you. Why because we're not going to get 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:23.600 a lot of people that are going to like that deal. 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.680 So what we say is the replacement worker, the worker 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:30.280 who's replacing the striking employee, is like, you come in 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:33.480 and you can hold the job as long as you want, right, 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.320 And so as a matter of law, the employer is 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:41.040 not required to fire that person at the end of 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:45.040 the strike. And so if you're the average worker, you 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:48.360 go out on strike and you're permanently replaced, it's kind 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.920 of a lawyer's distinction, the distinction between being fired from 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.679 being permanently replaced. If it means no employment for a 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:58.720 couple of years, then you're out of work either way. Right, 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.199 there's no money coming in and you don't have food 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:03.960 on the table. Once you understand that this is the 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:08.720 background rule, you begin to understand why unions are very 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.720 leary and have become more leary over the decades of 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:14.040 just going out on strike, because if you go out 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:16.639 on strike and the job is the kind of job 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.679 that somebody coming in off the street could do, and 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:21.840 then what's going to happen is the employer is simply 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:24.840 going to replace all or most of the bargaining unit, 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:28.879