Speaker 1: Episode three point thirty, What is the Radical Middle and
Speaker 1: how to live it?
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to
Speaker 2: save money, embrace simplicity, and life. Here your hosts Jen
Speaker 2: and Jill.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. My name is Jen,
Speaker 1: my name is Jell, and today we are talking about
Speaker 1: the radical Middle. It's been something that we probably mentioned
Speaker 1: on almost every episode, but we haven't done an actual
Speaker 1: episode on it for over a year, and even that
Speaker 1: one was more geared towards budgeting. This is going to
Speaker 1: be a very special episode in that there are no articles,
Speaker 1: there is no googling this. This is something that we
Speaker 1: feel uniquely positioned to explain and cover, and so it's
Speaker 1: going to be an explainer, a conversation, a deep dive
Speaker 1: into the radical middle and what that means for you.
Speaker 3: You're just gonna hear us talking, which is pretty much
Speaker 3: every episode, but we're not reading from the internet. We're
Speaker 3: reading from our minds. But first, this episode is brought
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Speaker 1: We were just talking about before we hit record that
Speaker 1: our goal for every friend letter, at least once a
Speaker 1: week is to have some kind of like free no
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Speaker 3: So far we're doing it. Not every week has been
Speaker 3: as easy as other weeks, but.
Speaker 1: We're fine in them. We yes, yes, So let's talk
Speaker 1: about the radical middle. We have, like I said, done
Speaker 1: episodes in the past about it, so specifically episode two
Speaker 1: twenty two, Stop strict budgeting and start living in the
Speaker 1: Radical Middle. We kind of introduced the topic in regards
Speaker 1: to budgeting because a lot of the time with budgeting,
Speaker 1: people feel all in or all out. So it's either
Speaker 1: I'm budgeting perfectly or I'm not budgeting at all. And
Speaker 1: so if that feels like you, definitely head back and
Speaker 1: listen to that one. But we also just recently did
Speaker 1: an episode episode three twenty five where we talk about
Speaker 1: a step by step guide to values based spending. So
Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to that one, I highly recommend
Speaker 1: you listen to that one first. It's another one that
Speaker 1: it's just us. We're not relaying our take on what
Speaker 1: the Internet says, which is most of our episodes are
Speaker 1: our take from people who live in reality, our take
Speaker 1: on what the Internet has to say on topics. And
Speaker 1: so this is a special one, just like episode three
Speaker 1: twenty five. So I'm really excited to dive into the
Speaker 1: radical middle and what it means for more than just budgeting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're going to talk about this topic from
Speaker 3: the perspective of what is it? Just define it for
Speaker 3: those of you who maybe haven't heard us mention this
Speaker 3: concept in nearly every other episode. Why is it important?
Speaker 3: How does this relate to our finances? And then how
Speaker 3: do we live it? How do we practice living in
Speaker 3: the radical middle? So for starters, let's define it and
Speaker 3: you'll hear both of genemized perspective on this. But I
Speaker 3: would say, simply put, it is holding the tension between
Speaker 3: two extremes where you can see the pendulum swinging to
Speaker 3: one far end or to the other. Of various topics, themes,
Speaker 3: life experiences. We are trying to say, there is good
Speaker 3: to be found in both extremes, and so how do
Speaker 3: we harness that and hold the tension there and live
Speaker 3: in that place? And we call it radical because not
Speaker 3: many people live there. Usually we can find ourselves and
Speaker 3: we see others in one of two extremes. And so
Speaker 3: it's this rejecting the either or binary and replacing it
Speaker 3: with both. And how can I have the benefit of
Speaker 3: this extreme as well as the benefit of the other
Speaker 3: end of that spectrum.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really a practical execution of not throwing the
Speaker 1: baby out with the bathwater, right, So, like, there are
Speaker 1: good things to be gleaned from a lot of different influencers,
Speaker 1: a lot of different gurus, a lot of different mentors
Speaker 1: people in our lives, and just because there are some
Speaker 1: good things to glean doesn't mean everything is infallible, doesn't
Speaker 1: mean everything is good. But we can absorb wisdom without
Speaker 1: subscribing one hundred percent to everything everybody has to say.
Speaker 1: And so that's kind of like this radical middle is
Speaker 1: the practical execution of that. But it's because extremes are
Speaker 1: everywhere every day in our lives. I think nobody would
Speaker 1: argue with that. We have extreme views on politics, extreme ideologies,
Speaker 1: extreme lifestyles like at the gym, or with nutrition, or
Speaker 1: even with great things like minimalism and sustainability homesteading, Like
Speaker 1: the things that go viral are the extreme ways of life,
Speaker 1: the extreme views, extreme videos, and so those are the
Speaker 1: things that get a lot of our attention. And so
Speaker 1: the reason that it's radical to be in the middle
Speaker 1: is because all we see are extremes. The things that
Speaker 1: are in the middle that are the best of both extremes,
Speaker 1: those rarely get viral, those rarely get seen.
Speaker 3: They're not as exciting, but they're also not as sustainable.
Speaker 3: And you see those realities too. You know this person
Speaker 3: who only ate tomatoes for an entire year, and here's
Speaker 3: now the ailments that they're struggling with. It's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 3: because we want to read about it, but it's not sustainable.
Speaker 3: And I think similarly for our lifestyles, but there is
Speaker 3: we do have a propensity to be drawn to that
Speaker 3: and want to achieve that, and I think this concept
Speaker 3: is the rejection of that, to just give ourselves permission
Speaker 3: and freedom to say, I don't have to live in
Speaker 3: this either or I can find a way for both,
Speaker 3: and I can implement creativity and problem solving and it's
Speaker 3: okay to take this, but leave the rest and borrow
Speaker 3: from this side and create this lifestyle that works for me.
Speaker 3: I really like using this concept of the radical middle
Speaker 3: in replace of the word balance or sometimes you'll hear
Speaker 3: me say holding the tension, because I think this word balance,
Speaker 3: which is another one of those things that's used all
Speaker 3: of the time, and I get it. I understand what
Speaker 3: people are trying to say, but I do think it
Speaker 3: gives an unrealistic impression of what life can look like,
Speaker 3: that we're going to find this this euphoric state where
Speaker 3: everything is held in complete balance and nothing's dropping, and
Speaker 3: reality is when we find that, when we actually find balance,
Speaker 3: it lasts for like two seconds. Inevitably something falls out
Speaker 3: of place. And so rather than trying to get everything
Speaker 3: teetering just right, what if just both and what if
Speaker 3: it's kind of a mess and kind of flexible but
Speaker 3: kind of organized and kind of put together too. That's
Speaker 3: a fine way to move throughout life and really much
Speaker 3: more sustainable.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I think we're so passionate about this concept
Speaker 1: of the radical middle because we've seen how extremes have
Speaker 1: torn good people and good ideas apart. Because I was
Speaker 1: thinking the other day, like when earlier in the summer,
Speaker 1: when I heard this phrase for the first time, you
Speaker 1: only get eighteen summers with your kids, I found that
Speaker 1: very inspirational. I had never thought about it before and
Speaker 1: to really savor the moments of summer. So for me,
Speaker 1: that was wisdom. And then all summer long on social media,
Speaker 1: I just saw the opposite. I saw people renouncing that
Speaker 1: wisdom as don't be stressed by this. You get more
Speaker 1: than eighteen summers with your kids, even if they don't
Speaker 1: live with you, like giving people permission to not be
Speaker 1: held by that phrase you only get eighteen summers. So
Speaker 1: depending on the person, a good idea can be used
Speaker 1: as wisdom or it can be a weapon to hold
Speaker 1: somebody back. But it's the same idea that the idea
Speaker 1: is not different, but it just depends on where the
Speaker 1: person is, maybe even on that day, on whether it
Speaker 1: is seen as wisdom or a weapon. And so it's
Speaker 1: this idea that you don't have to live in the
Speaker 1: extremes of the idea, right So just because you only
Speaker 1: get you know, quote unquote eighteen summers with your kids
Speaker 1: living at home, that doesn't mean that you are obligated
Speaker 1: to make every single summer the best summer ever. But
Speaker 1: it also doesn't like the other side, like you can
Speaker 1: just kind of cherish the moments and live in the
Speaker 1: radical middle of that without being stressed.
Speaker 3: I think what you're saying also highlights that the radical
Speaker 3: middle will look different from everyone. We can each be
Speaker 3: holding the tension of two extremes very differently, and sometimes
Speaker 3: what feels or is the radical middle for me might
Speaker 3: not be the same for you, But it also might
Speaker 3: look more or less extreme. For instance, when Eric and
Speaker 3: I lived in a motor home, that would probably be
Speaker 3: seen as a relatively extreme lifestyle for us. While it's
Speaker 3: not something that we did as a long term lifestyle.
Speaker 3: That's part of how we held the tension between the
Speaker 3: extremes is that it wasn't this lifelong commitment to r
Speaker 3: V living, but it was also having a home, owning
Speaker 3: a home without being housepoor. We wanted to own a
Speaker 3: home within our means, and so this was we can
Speaker 3: have that and not be able to not afford our mortgage.
Speaker 3: And so even in that, I think we can have
Speaker 3: these various ways of war walking out the radical middle,
Speaker 3: and there's still being permission for it to look different
Speaker 3: for every person. And that again ties into the freedom
Speaker 3: that we talk about all the time on this podcast
Speaker 3: and how that looks for our finances and the ways
Speaker 3: that this concept can even guide that reality as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think one last thing on what the
Speaker 1: radical middle is that it's not deprivation that it keeps
Speaker 1: us being able to live that value spased spending lifestyle.
Speaker 1: When you're not living in the extremes, then you can
Speaker 1: decide for yourself, not have somebody else decide for you,
Speaker 1: but decide for yourself what you value and what you don't.
Speaker 1: And again that can look different from everyone. So that yes,
Speaker 1: it does require sacrifice, especially if we have let our
Speaker 1: lifestyles inflate to a certain level. Sacrifice is not deprivation.
Speaker 1: They are different things. So while there is some sacrifice,
Speaker 1: you shouldn't feel deprived living in the radical middle.
Speaker 3: So let's talk about, now, why is the radical middle
Speaker 3: important and really take a deeper dive into what this
Speaker 3: can look like for our finances. Jen, what's your perspective
Speaker 3: on this, Like, what makes this concept important to really
Speaker 3: take hold of?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it gives room for ourselves and others to
Speaker 1: find workable solutions, rhythms, ways of life. It allows like
Speaker 1: flexibility for different people from different walks of life. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the times we get so passionate
Speaker 1: about our financial ideologies or just any ideologies, and we
Speaker 1: think because it works for me, it can work for anybody,
Speaker 1: and that it should work for everybody. And like what
Speaker 1: Jill just said, the radical middle looks different for everyone.
Speaker 1: So something that may seem radical, that may be extreme
Speaker 1: to me, may not be extreme to you. And we
Speaker 1: always say, like in frugality, like we say values based spending,
Speaker 1: but there is this caveat where when it's unhealthy, we say,
Speaker 1: like you should spend based on your values as long
Speaker 1: as what you value is what I value. I won't
Speaker 1: judge you if what you value is what I value.
Speaker 1: But there is actually freedom for somebody to value something
Speaker 1: to a degree that you do not. And so that's
Speaker 1: kind of where the radical middle is important, is forgiving
Speaker 1: ourselves grace when we may look different from the people
Speaker 1: around us or on social media, and giving others grace
Speaker 1: for looking different.
Speaker 3: I think inherently in this concept of the radical middle
Speaker 3: is a cautionary tale about life lived in extremes. It
Speaker 3: can be damaging. So a part of us saying this
Speaker 3: and leading a lifestyle of finding the radical middle is
Speaker 3: also pushing against some of these more radicalized extremes that
Speaker 3: we might be drawn to, but recognizing if we set
Speaker 3: up camp there for too long that it can be
Speaker 3: damaging to ourselves and others. Because when we live in extremes,
Speaker 3: whatever that is, lifestyle, politics, ideology, you name it, it
Speaker 3: is and requires a tight grip on that one thing.
Speaker 3: And depending on how deeply we go into that one thing,
Speaker 3: that one extreme, it is going to be to the
Speaker 3: exclusion of all of the other things. We're not then
Speaker 3: taking any of the good things from the other side.
Speaker 3: A lot of times that means we're living in echo chambers.
Speaker 3: We're not being challenged by alternative ideas or approaches or thoughts.
Speaker 3: We're not giving ourselves freedom and flexibility to change our
Speaker 3: our minds or even recognize if it's benefiting us anymore.
Speaker 3: And in best case scenario, we're just going to be
Speaker 3: isolated to some extent. You cannot live in an extreme
Speaker 3: set up camp there for long term and not be
Speaker 3: isolated in some way. And so I think this concept
Speaker 3: is important just for that reality of allowing ongoing evolving
Speaker 3: and morphing and shifting and changing and growing, because you're
Speaker 3: not going to be able to grow if you don't
Speaker 3: allow the influence of these various other ideas concepts, freedom
Speaker 3: and flexibility for yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'll add that when you're very at the
Speaker 1: very beginning, starting out, that it is not bad to
Speaker 1: kind of one hundred percent follow what somebody that you
Speaker 1: like is saying about how to do money. That's not
Speaker 1: when you have no idea what to do, you need
Speaker 1: an anchor to hold you to something. But what is
Speaker 1: unhealthy is that once you are in it, and you're
Speaker 1: living in it for a period of time, that you
Speaker 1: don't reevaluate where that anchor has been set. So once
Speaker 1: you learn, you should always be learning anything, but especially
Speaker 1: in finance, once you learn about debt saving investing, that
Speaker 1: you should be learning how that applies to your life
Speaker 1: and if the person or article on the internet that
Speaker 1: you're reading actually positively applies to you. Which is why
Speaker 1: we go through so many articles on the internet is
Speaker 1: to try and help you parse that out. So living
Speaker 1: in the radical middle means, yes, you can start from
Speaker 1: somewhere that may be a little extreme. That's fine, but
Speaker 1: finding where you sit on that spectrum, on that pendulum,
Speaker 1: like where is right for you, and it's unhealthy if
Speaker 1: you don't do that, if you just stay in the
Speaker 1: camp and reject like any like shift, any change in mind,
Speaker 1: any choices, anything that's different, if you reject that.
Speaker 3: That's such a good point because I do think it's
Speaker 3: important to highlight we can visit these extremes and we
Speaker 3: will and we do, and we won't be able to stop.
Speaker 3: There is just a reality to the pendulum like it
Speaker 3: will swing, especially when prompted by some sort of life
Speaker 3: event or crisis moment. We will often visit these extremes,
Speaker 3: and even if unprompted by a crisis moment, in life.
Speaker 3: We can choose to visit an extreme to understand it.
Speaker 3: But that's where the caution comes in is how long
Speaker 3: do we set up camp in that extreme? But I
Speaker 3: do think it's valuable to do it. Would say Eric
Speaker 3: and I visited the extreme of living in a vehicle.
Speaker 3: It was beneficial to us. I love that we did it.
Speaker 3: At the time. It was a version of a radical
Speaker 3: middle for us. And now it led us to what
Speaker 3: do we want next for ourselves. We didn't lock ourselves
Speaker 3: into we've got to stay living in this one hundred
Speaker 3: and seventy square feet What is the next step? How
Speaker 3: has this informed what we want to do in the future.
Speaker 3: So visit the extremes, but don't pull out your tent
Speaker 3: and your pots and your pans and then like start
Speaker 3: building a home there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I don't think there's any better example of
Speaker 1: visiting extremes than a no spend challenge.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: A no spend challenge is an extreme experiment in not
Speaker 1: spending any of your discretionary income on anything for a
Speaker 1: period of time, and we recommend thirty days. We know
Speaker 1: there are people who have written books about doing it
Speaker 1: for a year or two years, and that is extreme
Speaker 1: for most people, and that's why they're popular on social
Speaker 1: media and they got book deals about it. Because it's extreme,
Speaker 1: that's not going to be the best route for most people.
Speaker 1: If you can visit the extreme of not spending money
Speaker 1: on anything, then you can get all the value that
Speaker 1: comes with the reflection of taking time and taking space
Speaker 1: to think about your spending and the money that you
Speaker 1: save by not having the decision fatigue to say yes
Speaker 1: or no to an expense. When your answer is no,
Speaker 1: you free up a lot of your mental energy for
Speaker 1: other decisions. And so there are so many benefits to
Speaker 1: a no spend challenge, but those benefits are really at
Speaker 1: most best seen around thirty days, and some people need more,
Speaker 1: some people need less. That's where we say things can vary,
Speaker 1: but I think that's probably the best example of visiting
Speaker 1: an extreme but where it can get it's healthy to visit,
Speaker 1: it's unhealthy to camp out.
Speaker 3: Well from there, I think it helps us to implement
Speaker 3: creativity and problem solving skills, to consider ways of living
Speaker 3: that aren't entirely restrictive, but instead maybe pleasantly boundaried, where
Speaker 3: we can experience the reality of not deprivation, but maybe
Speaker 3: occasional sacrifice so we can visit the extremes to learn
Speaker 3: from them. Like to keep using your example, Jen of
Speaker 3: the no Spend challenge, we visit there for thirty days,
Speaker 3: we learn from it, We implement that knowledge, and we
Speaker 3: might make minor shifts to our regular, ongoing lifestyle. And
Speaker 3: that takes creativity, problem solving, introspection, reflection, implementation, and these
Speaker 3: are all skill sets that benefit us in other aspects
Speaker 3: of our personhood. Again, just underscoring why the radical middle
Speaker 3: is so important. As we keep finding ways to hold
Speaker 3: that tension, our lifestyles will benefit.
Speaker 1: So some examples of what this means for our finances.
Speaker 1: So we in our first episode on the Radical Middle,
Speaker 1: we talked to specifically about budgeting. So like I would argue,
Speaker 1: most people see budgeting as an extreme. If I can't
Speaker 1: keep my budget perfectly, I quit and try again next month.
Speaker 1: And that is living in an extreme. It's either I
Speaker 1: do it perfectly or I don't do it at all.
Speaker 1: When really in the radical middle, it means having space
Speaker 1: to make a mistake or not even a mistake, having
Speaker 1: space to pivot in life or choose something different and reevaluate.
Speaker 1: It's having that space to change your mind or accept
Speaker 1: the choices of others that have impacted you. So that's
Speaker 1: how kind of the radical middle shows itself up in budgeting,
Speaker 1: but it can show itself in other places. So earning
Speaker 1: money your career, we are going through this right now.
Speaker 1: So there are schools of thought that hate frugality because
Speaker 1: they think you should just earn as much as you can.
Speaker 1: Forget frugality, Just earn, earn, earn, just focus all of
Speaker 1: your energy there. And then you've got the other end
Speaker 1: of the spectrum, which is the frugal people that are
Speaker 1: like live on a dollar a day, extreme frugality sort
Speaker 1: of people. Where we view the radical middle of that
Speaker 1: is to be very intentional with your time, to make
Speaker 1: sure that the time you spend earning money is getting
Speaker 1: you the biggest ROI possible. So not just quiet quitting
Speaker 1: or like showing up and doing the minimum at work,
Speaker 1: but always doing things that will either be getting you
Speaker 1: some kind of promotion within your job or could be
Speaker 1: beneficial for moving forward with another job. Always making the
Speaker 1: most of your time at work for yourself, not necessarily
Speaker 1: for the company. Obviously, when you benefit the companies, that
Speaker 1: often does come back to you. But we're looking We're
Speaker 1: not looking to put in eighty hours a week to
Speaker 1: further somebody else's business. We're looking to further the business
Speaker 1: of us so that we can make money. And we're
Speaker 1: also looking at decreasing our expenses so that we don't
Speaker 1: let lifestyle inflation eat away at all of our increasing income.
Speaker 1: And so it's not either or it's both and so,
Speaker 1: and this shows up. It can show up in investing.
Speaker 1: I'll talk a little bit about that example later. But
Speaker 1: all these different ways where we see debt, there are
Speaker 1: people see good debt bad debt, or all debt bad
Speaker 1: or all debt good. Those are all those are all
Speaker 1: mindsets within personal finance. You will see I can name
Speaker 1: names for every single one of those.
Speaker 3: But we won't.
Speaker 1: But we won't. In reality, debt is neutral. How you
Speaker 1: use debt makes it beneficial for your finances or detrimental.
Speaker 1: And so it's finding out where debt sits on your
Speaker 1: personal scale, like how you feel about it, how you
Speaker 1: feel having it, and where it sits on the math scale.
Speaker 1: What is what are the numbers, the interest rates, the
Speaker 1: loan amounts are they actually doing for your finances? So
Speaker 1: it's not saying all debt is bad all debt is good.
Speaker 1: I'm paying off all my debt. I'm not paying off
Speaker 1: any of my debt. It's finding the middle for you,
Speaker 1: what's right for you.
Speaker 3: Those critical thinking skills are so beautiful and they don't
Speaker 3: come without visiting some of these extremes, without considering ourselves,
Speaker 3: our wants, our desires, our skill sets, our capacities, and
Speaker 3: rather than just adopting someone else's blueprint for us, which
Speaker 3: could work for a time, but then implementing this critical
Speaker 3: thought that you're describing jen to take greater ownership of ourselves,
Speaker 3: of our circumstances, and to get after what we actually
Speaker 3: value and being able to find how can I negotiate
Speaker 3: this to experience a both and and not feel as
Speaker 3: though I'm always depriving myself of something in order to
Speaker 3: live in this extreme that's being sold to me by
Speaker 3: somebody out there. But instead, what is it that you
Speaker 3: want to do? And it's okay that it be a
Speaker 3: sprinkling and smattering of a variety of things that don't
Speaker 3: look extreme. That's radical. Yes, Okay, let's talk about how
Speaker 3: to do it.
Speaker 1: How do you do it?
Speaker 3: Jill, Oh, let's get in to it. We've broken it
Speaker 3: down into some four steps. It's kind of still loosey goosey.
Speaker 3: Who knows, there's probably six? You know us, there's probably
Speaker 3: goosey goosey. Yeah, but your worst. If you're looking for
Speaker 3: a framework, here's a version of a blueprint for you.
Speaker 3: First identify the extremes that you feel drawn to or
Speaker 3: pulled between. A couple of examples could be do you
Speaker 3: feel as though you feel pulled between saving or spending?
Speaker 3: That it's always either or that, well, I have to
Speaker 3: just be saving every single penny I can't spend at all.
Speaker 3: Or is it this is my life and I want
Speaker 3: to live it, and you I worked hard for this money,
Speaker 3: I want to spend it. I want to spend it
Speaker 3: all the way up until my paycheck's gone, saving or spending.
Speaker 3: Is it that you often feel pulled between deprivation or extravagance.
Speaker 3: I either have to never ever go out to eat,
Speaker 3: or I want to go out to eat for every
Speaker 3: single meal, I never ever want to cook at home.
Speaker 3: Does it often feel like I am always choosing between
Speaker 3: having fun now or fun later? Aki vacations versus retirement,
Speaker 3: Like if I go on this vacation, that means I'm
Speaker 3: sacrificing whatever my retirement's going to look like. The more
Speaker 3: vacations I take now, the longer I'm going to have
Speaker 3: to work and to my seventies or eighties or nineties. Like,
Speaker 3: what is it that you feel pulled between? And what
Speaker 3: do you feel drawn to? Do you primarily live in?
Speaker 3: The saving camp or the spending camp, the deprivation or
Speaker 3: the extravagance, All of these things are going to tell
Speaker 3: us more about ourselves and fun fact, this is also
Speaker 3: tied into some work that is helpful in understanding values
Speaker 3: based spending and all these other concepts that we talk
Speaker 3: about with prioritization. But as it relates to the radical middle,
Speaker 3: even just beginning to think through what extremes do I
Speaker 3: often live in and where does it feel like to
Speaker 3: do this, I am drastically giving up this other thing.
Speaker 3: Who are the people you primarily follow on social media?
Speaker 3: Where are you primarily spending your money? Where is your
Speaker 3: savings going to? These will be some good indicator signs
Speaker 3: of the types of extremes you may be living in.
Speaker 1: So once you identify some of the extremes that you
Speaker 1: either feel drawn to or have been pulled into, next
Speaker 1: consider why you're drawn to them or how you became
Speaker 1: pulled into them. So a lot of the times it
Speaker 1: is books that we have read, mentors in our life,
Speaker 1: people on social media. I think those are probably the
Speaker 1: top three is social media influencers including YouTube, people in
Speaker 1: our lives, and books we have read on personal finance.
Speaker 1: So think about the ways that you have been drawn
Speaker 1: into streams and think about the validity, maybe why this
Speaker 1: person thinks this way, how it is similar to the
Speaker 1: way you think, and how it is different. Because understanding
Speaker 1: why people come to the conclusions they come to is
Speaker 1: important for figuring out why they say the things that
Speaker 1: they say. And this will not be a fast process.
Speaker 1: You will not be able to sit down and do
Speaker 1: this in an hour. This is stuff that comes to
Speaker 1: you throughout your journey. But once you know the questions,
Speaker 1: then you know to look for the answers. So thinking about, okay,
Speaker 1: this is what I've been told. Like my uncle has
Speaker 1: read Rich Dad, Poor Dad and now thinks that real
Speaker 1: estate investing is for everyone and investing in gold is it?
Speaker 1: Why Why does he think that, Well, he read a
Speaker 1: book and he had one good real estate deal. Maybe
Speaker 1: I don't know. Whatever the story is, think about why
Speaker 1: the words you're hearing are being said and how they
Speaker 1: relate to where you are in life and what you
Speaker 1: are thinking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that will ultimately be an indicator more about
Speaker 3: yourself too. What is it about me that is drawn
Speaker 3: to this thing that I'm reading or watching or doing?
Speaker 3: And it will help us know even a little bit
Speaker 3: about our core values. For me, I think one of
Speaker 3: the things that I can feel drawn to is saving.
Speaker 3: I'm definitely much more of a saveror than a spender.
Speaker 3: But to find the radical middle, I need to be
Speaker 3: willing to spend. But as I move into step number
Speaker 3: two of considering why am I drawn to that, part
Speaker 3: of it has to do with security. I have had
Speaker 3: experiences of kind of really being without for a while
Speaker 3: a job is low, lost, or life situations and circumstances shift,
Speaker 3: and feeling like I want to be prepared, and having
Speaker 3: a hefty savings account feels like security to me. That's valuable.
Speaker 3: I need to value that in myself. It is a
Speaker 3: part of who I am. It's a part of my experiences,
Speaker 3: and it's wisdom to pay attention to that. But to
Speaker 3: what extreme. To the extreme of I then live under
Speaker 3: a rack. I never go out even though I have
Speaker 3: the means to no, and so I think that's where
Speaker 3: we can move into number three, which is to brainstorm
Speaker 3: ways to move towards this concept of both and instead
Speaker 3: of either or. So once you have this sense of
Speaker 3: the few things, maybe it's two to three extremes that
Speaker 3: you might feel drawn to as it relates to your finances,
Speaker 3: begin to think about, well, what are the benefits of
Speaker 3: either ends of the spectrum. Is there a way for
Speaker 3: me to experience both and and really hold that tension
Speaker 3: rather than just choosing this or that. So I just
Speaker 3: gave my example of saving and spending, and part of
Speaker 3: that for me includes what amount can I reasonably feel
Speaker 3: comfortable with in an emergency fund and investing for retirement,
Speaker 3: and then can spend and create a spending plan outside
Speaker 3: of that. And that's taken me some time to get there,
Speaker 3: and it still does include spreadsheets and it includes solid
Speaker 3: numbers for me to feel secure about that. But I
Speaker 3: have found the tension between those two things where it
Speaker 3: is not all just saving with me, there is spending
Speaker 3: as well, because I know my core values and what
Speaker 3: I want to be spending on. I think we can
Speaker 3: see this as well with maybe how can I vacation
Speaker 3: now and invest for retirement. What is that radical middle
Speaker 3: where I get to enjoy at least once a year
Speaker 3: with my family, doing something fun, taking a break, and
Speaker 3: it doesn't feel like I'm sacrificing a year of my
Speaker 3: retirement to do so. How can I find the permission
Speaker 3: to spend and save? What if I were to both
Speaker 3: pay off debt and invest? How does that feel to
Speaker 3: do both simultaneously? Is their room to live the radical
Speaker 3: middle in that regard with my finances? And I would
Speaker 3: say yes, We would say yes. You have to find
Speaker 3: what's comfortable for you, what's going to feel like holding
Speaker 3: the tension for you, but beginning to think about and
Speaker 3: even opening up some of those new neural pathways to
Speaker 3: consider It doesn't have to be a binary. What if
Speaker 3: I kind of got the best of both worlds and
Speaker 3: this isn't looking at it through rose colored glasses like
Speaker 3: you can have it all. You can have your cake
Speaker 3: and eat it too. It will mean some sacrifice, sometimes
Speaker 3: saying no, sometimes saying yes, getting a little bit of this,
Speaker 3: a little bit of that, And it's not just all
Speaker 3: of this or all of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would definitely be easier to just have endless
Speaker 1: amounts of money to do both without making critical spending decisions.
Speaker 3: That's not this podcast. We're not there right.
Speaker 1: Ideally, yes, that is easier, and that's what we all want,
Speaker 1: but ninety percent of our lives that is not going
Speaker 1: to happen. Even when you make more, you're not going
Speaker 1: to think it's enough, especially with inflation. So get out
Speaker 1: of the mindset that says I'll do this when I
Speaker 1: make more, or I'll do this when I have fewer expenses.
Speaker 1: That's an extreme mindset. Live in the middle that says,
Speaker 1: how can I how can I do both? And and
Speaker 1: it's going to be smaller. And this doesn't compete necessarily
Speaker 1: with our idea that you should focus on one thing
Speaker 1: at a time, like goal wise, but this is more
Speaker 1: of like ideology based. And then also just like practical living,
Speaker 1: you should say for vacations because those are good for
Speaker 1: your soul. You also should invest for retirement because that's
Speaker 1: good for your eighty year old old culture. Yeah you're
Speaker 1: eighty year old soul. So those are not competing goals.
Speaker 1: Those are just things that should be part of your
Speaker 1: financial plan. And sometimes we're tricked into thinking that getting
Speaker 1: to the right place to invest is actually a goal
Speaker 1: we don't believe that is, and it might also I
Speaker 1: just thought be confusing to think like I don't know
Speaker 1: what my extremes are. I don't know enough to know
Speaker 1: what the extremes are. It's probably the things, the financial
Speaker 1: things that are making most stressed, the things you feel
Speaker 1: most anxious about, and or things anything that brings you guilt.
Speaker 1: So if it's stretching me out, making you anxious, making
Speaker 1: me guilty, that is probably a space where you need
Speaker 1: to investigate if you're in an extreme. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of like a wanted to add that in, But that
Speaker 1: brings us to our fourth step to living in the
Speaker 1: radical middle is to continue to cultivate a mindset and
Speaker 1: inner monologue that pushes against binary options. So that's Jill's
Speaker 1: beautiful way of saying that, But ultimately it's just creating
Speaker 1: the words inside your head that say, what's the third
Speaker 1: option here? Like, yes, it would be easier if I
Speaker 1: just had all the money and I could invest, but like,
Speaker 1: what's the third option? How can I do both? And
Speaker 1: a lot of the times we talk about it in
Speaker 1: the sense of like if you're talking about growth mindset,
Speaker 1: people will say like limiting mindset says no. Growth mindset
Speaker 1: says how And that's kind of this. You really do
Speaker 1: need to be cultivating a growth mindset in order to
Speaker 1: fully live in the radical middle, because you do need
Speaker 1: to continue to cultivate that growth mindset that looks for
Speaker 1: the third option, that looks for the middle. Honestly, there's
Speaker 1: more than three options, because there's not just an extreme
Speaker 1: on one end, extreme on the other, and middle. There
Speaker 1: are many points on the middle road and then and
Speaker 1: you could be like just just a step inside the
Speaker 1: extreme or just you know, step inside the other extreme,
Speaker 1: So your middle looks differently, and so you just need
Speaker 1: to know the questions to ask to look for that option.
Speaker 3: Do you know what's an example of another radical middle?
Speaker 3: Super flexible, vague, multiple points of entry.
Speaker 1: I might say it's extreme because it's the only thing,
Speaker 1: and I will allow in the middle segment of the show,
Speaker 1: the middle of the week.
Speaker 2: That's right, it's time for the best minute of your
Speaker 2: entire week.
Speaker 1: Maybe a baby was born and his name is Williams.
Speaker 2: Maybe you've paid off your mortgage, Maybe your car died
Speaker 2: and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore.
Speaker 1: Be'st bills but blow bills. Bill Clinton, this is the
Speaker 1: bill of the week.
Speaker 4: Hi Jen and Jill, this is brief from Indiana. I
Speaker 4: like to say that I have been spending the past
Speaker 4: year trying to catch up with your guys' podcast, and
Speaker 4: I'm finally caught up. I feel bad for my baby
Speaker 4: because that's all she gets to listen to while we're
Speaker 4: in the car. I have two bills of the week.
Speaker 4: First bill of the week is the fact that I
Speaker 4: just started paying rent for a place for my baby
Speaker 4: and I to live. Going through a divorce is pretty
Speaker 4: financially trying, but with your guys's in Alison Baggerly's helpful tips,
Speaker 4: I was able to make that work. Second bill of
Speaker 4: the week is a fifteen hundred dollar check that I
Speaker 4: gotten a mail from Extra Principle that I was paying
Speaker 4: to the mortgage I had with my ex husband. Thanks
Speaker 4: you guys. I love your podcast.
Speaker 1: Bye, oh Brie. Don't you feel bad for that baby girl.
Speaker 1: She's getting some good education. She's going to come out
Speaker 1: and her first words are going to be double of
Speaker 1: the week, which is what we're currently working on for
Speaker 1: my baby. So we'll see who's gets there first.
Speaker 3: We tried it with Kai it didn't work, but I
Speaker 3: think Atlas is going to come through for us.
Speaker 1: I do think so. We do love a double bill.
Speaker 3: Almost as much as a double cheeseburger so or a
Speaker 3: double hot dog. I don't even know what that is,
Speaker 3: but I bet they make them. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: We are so proud of you, Brie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does sound like you're in a difficult spot
Speaker 3: just with personal life, but making it through and being resilient,
Speaker 3: and this is just a beautiful thing to be able
Speaker 3: to make your rent payment and receive an unexpected check.
Speaker 3: I'm sure that's helping you a ton, and we're so
Speaker 3: glad to be caught up with you.
Speaker 1: We will share this with Allison because she will love
Speaker 1: to hear this. This will make her day. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Brie.
Speaker 3: If you all are listening and you're forcing your children
Speaker 3: to listen, hey, and you want to submit a bill
Speaker 3: of the week, or your children have a bill of
Speaker 3: the week they want to submit, or your child's name
Speaker 3: is Bill, visit Frugal friendspodcast dot com slash Bill leave
Speaker 3: it for us. We're so excited. And now it's time for.
Speaker 1: Spoiler alert that may or may not have made it
Speaker 1: into some Frugal Friends merch.
Speaker 3: Hey, oh, you'd only know about it if you're getting
Speaker 3: our newsletter.
Speaker 1: If you got our newsletter, you were able to vote
Speaker 1: on it.
Speaker 3: Frugal Friends podcast dot com, slash a friend letter, Get
Speaker 3: there all right? Get square?
Speaker 1: So in our vulnerability around, let's fill our cups with
Speaker 1: vulnerability one way your current what stop? What's one way?
Speaker 1: You're currently living in the radical middle?
Speaker 3: Go for it? John, you since you love this vulnerability
Speaker 3: juice and our cup.
Speaker 1: I do so. I alluded to this earlier. Investing right
Speaker 1: now is probably top of mind the most recent radical
Speaker 1: mental decision that I had to make. So I have
Speaker 1: always been more towards the extreme end of the investing spectrum.
Speaker 1: Before I learned how investing should work in my life,
Speaker 1: I was following like the fire financial independence retire early,
Speaker 1: and I was like maxing out roth Ira vour o
Speaker 1: one K's HSA is like I was. It was very
Speaker 1: extreme on it, and then a life circumstance forced me.
Speaker 1: Having a child forced me to find that middle ground
Speaker 1: a little more middle. But we've still always been very
Speaker 1: aggressive because something that I know for me, and something
Speaker 1: i'm is extreme for me, is that you will always
Speaker 1: save more money by investing early versus starting later when
Speaker 1: you feel like you quote unquote have more, you will
Speaker 1: never be able to catch back up versus just starting
Speaker 1: small now. So that is a math fact unless you're
Speaker 1: like really going hard later, which most people will not.
Speaker 1: So I've always been very on the more extreme side
Speaker 1: with investing because of that, because I know I'm in
Speaker 1: my youth, or I was in my youth. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I still am. But Travis just took a job.
Speaker 1: You have you now, I have some youth left. Travis
Speaker 1: just took a job that is a significant pay cut
Speaker 1: because it has better hours, and so we were able
Speaker 1: to choose that because of the values based spending we
Speaker 1: do in the values based earning, we were able to
Speaker 1: choose that for him. It's a much better work life
Speaker 1: balance and he's really enjoying it so far. But it
Speaker 1: is an extreme pay cut. And we just put our
Speaker 1: second child into daycare. The first one's out of daycare.
Speaker 1: But I turned off our retirement investing. I just turned
Speaker 1: it completely off. Granted we did invest all the way
Speaker 1: through the first half of the year, maxed out still
Speaker 1: like half doubt. The rath Ira two rath Iras for
Speaker 1: the year, but we are just not at a place
Speaker 1: where we can afford right now to invest one thousand
Speaker 1: dollars a month, and so kind of visiting the other
Speaker 1: extreme right now, but knowing that we still actually are
Speaker 1: renovating our house, which is technically a real estate investment
Speaker 1: because we rent out the backside. So we're still doing
Speaker 1: that and in the new year plan to go back
Speaker 1: to halfng out our rapi A right. So that was
Speaker 1: a huge hit for me mentally and emotionally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is the big deal.
Speaker 1: Because I've always been so bullish on investing and to
Speaker 1: turn that off, it was that or take Atlas out
Speaker 1: of daycare, and that can't make money at all if
Speaker 1: that happens, yeah, because I can't focus. So yeah, So
Speaker 1: that's my radical middle with investing right now. Right now
Speaker 1: it's totally off. But we also were able to do that,
Speaker 1: and I did the calculations that we have invested so
Speaker 1: much that we could turn it off for four years
Speaker 1: and then start maxing it out again and still be
Speaker 1: able to retire on time. Wow, so retired. But I
Speaker 1: love it when the math maths. The math is math
Speaker 1: in because we started so early, and we started so
Speaker 1: aggressively that we will overall have to invest less and
Speaker 1: get the same result as if we had just started
Speaker 1: later and invested more.
Speaker 3: It's so difficult, I understand, particularly for you, with how
Speaker 3: much we've talked about this and how much of an
Speaker 3: expert you are on this topic. But yet it's also
Speaker 3: so refreshing because I think we all hit those points
Speaker 3: in life. Life is not this kind of ho hum
Speaker 3: linear trajectory, or for most of us even just this
Speaker 3: steady upward trajectory that's more like a roller coaster where
Speaker 3: there are ups and downs, some chosen, some that happened
Speaker 3: to us, and really trying to make the best decisions
Speaker 3: and how to leverage this season. What do I have
Speaker 3: freedom for what do I value the most? And you know,
Speaker 3: we talk about values based spending, but that goes into
Speaker 3: a values based lifestyle that there are some of us
Speaker 3: who might practice, you know, various types of frugality and
Speaker 3: in different seasons, go more extreme in one way versus
Speaker 3: another way, so that we can also live a lifestyle
Speaker 3: that we want, not just buy what we want. But
Speaker 3: you guys are getting time back and family togetherness while
Speaker 3: your children are young, and there is a value to that.
Speaker 3: You might be sacrificing a little bit of money or
Speaker 3: a little bit of investment, but you are getting something
Speaker 3: in return and kind of holding the tension there. So
Speaker 3: I find it quite refreshing and I appreciate that we
Speaker 3: get to share this with our listeners because I do
Speaker 3: think a lot of people are going to resonate with
Speaker 3: this reality. And again, you're not describing that this is
Speaker 3: going to be a long term lifestyle. This is what
Speaker 3: needs to happen for right now as you work on
Speaker 3: other things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this turnoff is for six months. Yeah. Again, still
Speaker 1: support investing as much as you can every single month,
Speaker 1: even if it's just a little investing something every month.
Speaker 1: But I mean, we've half doubt our rapae ara and
Speaker 1: that's kind of where we've been sitting if we planned
Speaker 1: to half it out, half out two of them just
Speaker 1: for the next few years. But it could change also
Speaker 1: if Frugal Friends starts to make more money, so that's
Speaker 1: also something.
Speaker 3: Frugal friendspodcast dot com slash friend letter get your friend
Speaker 3: letter for free. It's free for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's totally free for you. But the more
Speaker 1: people we have sign up for the friend letter, the
Speaker 1: more we can charge for brand partners in it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for clicking the links to our
Speaker 1: brand partners.
Speaker 3: And for me, I'll pull this up a little bit,
Speaker 3: not as big picture, but eating at home. You hear
Speaker 3: me talk about this a lot, but in my movement
Speaker 3: towards eating at home, which in part has happened because
Speaker 3: I've taken a pay cut in order to focus more
Speaker 3: on this joy of mine, which is getting to talk
Speaker 3: with Jen all the time and being in your ears
Speaker 3: on a regular basis. In order for me to do that,
Speaker 3: I stepped way far back from some of my other
Speaker 3: roles that I have, my money making roles, and so
Speaker 3: that has meant some financial shifts for us as well,
Speaker 3: at one of which is really cutting back some of
Speaker 3: our spending around food, which is meant more eating at home.
Speaker 3: But me, when I say eating at home, yeah, sometimes
Speaker 3: that means I've done the whole meal plan, I've grocery
Speaker 3: shopped my ingredients, I've shot my pantry and using up
Speaker 3: what's in my freezer. Sometimes I'm really crushing that. And
Speaker 3: other times eating at home means I've gotten prepared meals
Speaker 3: from the market or getting a meal delivery kit because
Speaker 3: it helps me for that week or that month with
Speaker 3: being able to reduce my overall food costs. Might be
Speaker 3: a little bit more expensive than if I had just
Speaker 3: gotten the ingredients and shop the groceries, but it's not
Speaker 3: as expensive as going out to eat, paying tip all
Speaker 3: of the things that go along with that. So I
Speaker 3: love to just have those different options and not feel
Speaker 3: so boxed in or stringent with what it looks like
Speaker 3: to eat at home and still creating some fun and
Speaker 3: newness and excitement around the reality of trying to save
Speaker 3: money on food.
Speaker 1: So good, Well, thank you so much for listening to this.
Speaker 1: This episode is obviously very close to our hearts since
Speaker 1: it was all original thoughts, so please let us know
Speaker 1: what you thought of it if you have the time,
Speaker 1: leaving a rating and view in Apple Podcasts, and also
Speaker 1: sign up for the friend letter Frugal friendspodcast dot com
Speaker 1: slash friend letter, and you can reply to us at
Speaker 1: any of those friend letters. We are the friends on
Speaker 1: the other side of the friend letter. It's either us
Speaker 1: or Goldie, and we see you and we will respond
Speaker 1: to you. And so we want to know how we
Speaker 1: can best help you figure out what the extremes are
Speaker 1: in your financial life and how to navigate them better
Speaker 1: and find your unique radical middle. So until next.
Speaker 3: Time, Thanks everyone, see you next time.
Speaker 1: Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni Jill.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh it's the day after my birthday.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, happy, but late birthday at this point, but
Speaker 1: early birthday. From the time we're recording this, we are
Speaker 1: now again the same age. So you can't say that
Speaker 1: I'm old or that I'm out of touch.
Speaker 3: I can say you're older than me. That'll always right, But.
Speaker 1: We are the same age now, I'm older than you
Speaker 1: by four months.
Speaker 3: We are rocking thirty four.
Speaker 1: Thirty four looks good. I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 3: It looks we're holding the radical middle between our elder
Speaker 3: years and our youthful years. What are we going to
Speaker 3: do with it? Jen, What are we doing with our
Speaker 3: thirty fourth year.
Speaker 1: Writing a book? Oh yeah, yeah, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 3: And we're talking about the radical middle in our book,
Speaker 3: which is fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, these ideas are all going to be in there,
Speaker 1: so sometime release in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: It will be done. By the time our thirty fourths years.
Speaker 1: Are over, we will.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'll have a little bit more to write than me,
Speaker 3: but yeah, by the time we're thirty five. Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good thing to do at thirty four.
Speaker 1: Highly recommend it writing down all of your thoughts so
Speaker 1: that way you can go back at forty four and
Speaker 1: be like, oh my gosh, I was so silly, because
Speaker 1: who does it like look at all the things you
Speaker 1: thought at twenty four and say, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 1: was so silly. Yeah, and I'm sure we'll think the
Speaker 1: same at forty four.
Speaker 3: Maybe Horror will be like, man, we just had aged wisdom.
Speaker 3: I would say, nothing new, nothing different.
Speaker 1: Everything I had I peaked at thirty four.
Speaker 3: I also don't want to say that either new.
Speaker 1: Yikes.
Speaker 3: Okay, here's what we can say. What a beautiful launching point.
Speaker 3: It has made me what I am now at forty four. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and then fifty four will be like, we don't freaking
Speaker 3: care sixty four. Who the heck knows, who the heck knows.
Speaker 1: We'll see