WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Tecaxic-Calixtlauaca head 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:05.519 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by the Illuminati. Maybe. Instead, 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:10.000 it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon. 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:14.160 Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:28.240 and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't you never know what 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:35.600 stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hey, guys, 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:39.760 welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.280 so excited. I'm so excited. I'm Devin, joined as usual 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.520 by Joe I Steve. This week we're going to talk 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:57.240 about mystery, uh the text access Kalakadaka's head. Yes, I 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.840 did pick a mystery that I can't pronounce. I'm sorry, 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.000 but seriously, I'm gonna spell it for you guys, um 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:04.920 in case you just you know, hit play and don't 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:06.840 ever look at the titles or whatever, and then I'm 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:08.880 going to genuinely try to pronounce it, and then that 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:10.760 might be the very last time I try to say 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.600 this word. Well, then refer to it as the head. Yeah, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.080 the TLC head. Yeah, Oh, the TLC head. Yeah. There's 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.360 no L in there. Though there's an L in there, 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.440 there's two l's in there, so it's it's spelled t 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:27.400 e c A x I C dash c A l 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:32.959 I x t l A U A c A So 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:41.560 I think it's Pennsylvania. Yeah, texts as waca look tex 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:46.480 sas sasakaca perfect sounds great, well done than spot on. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:47.960 I think my a's are a little too hard, but 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:52.320 that's pretty good for me. Um. The short summary of 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:56.320 this mystery is that in the thirties some guys found 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.800 a terra cotta head in a grave um and it 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:05.440 had no business being in that grave. Oh yeah, this one, well, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.480 I don't know I should have said yeah, but I 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.560 mean that is genuinely that's the short thumbary of there 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.760 that like, some guys found terra cotta head in a 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.160 you know, it's an out of place artifact. You guys, congratulations, 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.320 we're doing an artifact, out of place artifact episode. And 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:23.959 this has actually been the subject of a lot of 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.200 scholarly dispute. It has mostly in German. Yeah, so that's 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:29.040 been really fun. One of the one of the things 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.679 about this head that's just really puzzling to being it 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.800 was found eighty three years ago, and yet it's been 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.760 around all that time, and it's been they've discussed so 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.040 much and there's only two actual freaking photographs right in 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.720 the whole world. None for scale exactly. Nobody's thought to 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.120 put a ruler in there in there so you can 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.080 or beer can. Yeah, I mean anything hand even would 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.040 be helpful. I was very angry about that. Yeah. Yeah, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:57.160 it was like text messages. Yeah, I mean it's like 0:02:57.680 --> 0:02:59.200 it almost at first it looks like there might be 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.359 four pictures of it, but actually there's one picture that's 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.480 been reversed. So yeah, there's two freaking pictures. Yeah, so 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.720 let's some talk a little more in detail about this head. 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.799 In nineteen thirty three, a team of archaeologists led by 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.480 Jose Garcia Paon I believe it's how you say his name, 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:22.720 um found a pre Columbian slash pre Hispanic, depending on 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.519 which term you'd prefer to use, grave site in the 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:32.400 Toluca Valley, which is about forty miles out of current 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:39.280 Mexico City, Mexico. The settlement was called Colleague Quaca, which 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.600 translates generally to like house on the prairie, and that 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:47.600 settlement was a pre Columbian post Classic era Mesoamerican settlement. 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:55.160 Words there on the prairie different, No, obviously, they ripped. Yeah, yeah, 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.200 but the pre Columbian for those of you don't know 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:00.920 what that means, that's prior to Columbus arriving. Yes, I 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.520 know you probably know that Moore. Oh yeah no, but 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.560 thank you for specifying that. I have dates, but for 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:11.000 like other stuff, not for pre Columbian um. And you know, 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:17.479 Columbus sailed the ocean blue in so for us dummies, 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:22.080 the post classic era of Mesoamerican settlement not not. And 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.800 this is also pre Columbian obviously, is like um one 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:30.600 thousand to see, I'm going to be using C E 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:35.280 and B C E. I'm sorry with that trick. Yeah, 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.680 I think it's a common era, but common okay, I 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.280 see both ways. Yeah, but they're the like, you know, 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:46.040 non denominational religious, non religious scientific way to say that. So, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:47.920 you know, one of one of the puzzles I've always 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.920 pointed about that it's BC before Christ and then a 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:52.920 D after Christ. So does that mean that there's like 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.720 a thirty year gap in between the two periods? You 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.320 know what this is? This is right up there with 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.360 me getting yelled at for saying year zero. We should 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:07.400 leave that at Yeah. So Payon speculated based on the 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.839 architecture of this settlement that it was probably like closer 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:15.159 to the Middle Classic, middle to late of the Classic era, 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.119 not um the post Classic era. And that was pretty 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.520 much just the big structures, just based on the kind 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.880 of archaeology. And we'll talk a little bit about the 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.800 area in a second. The building was kind of a zigarette, 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.760 Is that right? Or was it not that he was excavating. 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.680 I thought it was just the pyramid pyramid. Yeah. Yeah, 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:36.960 Well there're seventeen structures, all said and done in this area, so, um, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.680 most of them are sacrificial altars or grave sites. Um. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:46.120 But this pyramid was a burial grave pyramid situation. So 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:50.960 apparently people had actually settled this area since about fifteen 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:57.040 hundred BC, so a long time years. No, So they 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:01.840 had started settling in fifteen thousand b c E. I'm 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:06.360 sorry b c E. And then um, the structures that 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.440 they were excavating were from like a thousand cekay, So 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:15.760 that was about two thousand years yeah. And then at 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:17.840 some point, at some point I think it was like 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.520 this this this one structure that they excavated it. Don't 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.880 they believe that the tomb itself could have been actually 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:26.680 you know, filled up with stuff and sealed up some 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.480 somewhere around. They don't have a good date on this 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:36.599 structure itself, um, and even more so on this layer 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.480 of stuff that we're going to be talking about, but 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.360 I do believe that, Yeah, it was in the earlier 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:47.960 part of stuff versus the later part of stuff. You're 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:52.320 welcome everywhere stuff stuff. Um. And as I said, there 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.479 were seventeen monuments um or buildings that have been found 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.960 in this area. Um, most of them haven't been explored. 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.440 I guess you know, which kind of makes sense. You 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.880 don't necessarily need to like visit the sight of human 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:08.080 sacrifices and stuff like that. It's kind of fun. Yeah, 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.800 maybe tor stro Yeah, I wasn't. I was on the 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.400 soul in like Titicaca, and there's some inca ruins on that, 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.000 and there was this massive stone table that was there, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.000 and I was just thinking that had to have been 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.600 for secon I'm sure. Yeah, But anyway, there's they're a 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:25.120 bunch of sheep running around the island. So there was 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:30.600 this little sheep like rubbing us back on the stone. Yeah. 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:35.720 He was usually to scratch. Yeah, I mean a lot 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.840 of them were kind of sacrificial areas. Um some of 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.280 them are like within a city limit, so you can't 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.600 really investigate that anyway. This one was the kind of 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.840 pyramid burial ground for it was the I believe it 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.560 was like a more royal burial. They did not have 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:58.040 us pyramids and stuff, you know. Yeah. So, and in 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.520 the nineteen thirty three dig, the team was exploring this 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.040 grave site. Like I said, there are lots in that area, 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.680 but this was not like a human sacrifice thing. This 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.880 grave site was had floor so as a pyramid, and 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:13.640 it had floors in it. And so this discovery was 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.200 made on the third floor or under the third floor, 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.200 and the third floor down right where the floor above it, 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.440 and then there was a subterranean floor. Yeah. Yeah, so 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.760 it was the third floor down and it was kind 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.600 of you know what you would expect to be found 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.840 in a grave site for this kind of a culture. 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:37.640 There's you know, lots of gold, copper, turquoise rock, crystal bone, shell, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.880 pottery stuff and in addition to a corpse, yeah and 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.319 well yeah and a corpse yeah, and then there was 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.240 a small terra cottahead um and that is our out 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.240 of place artifact because it doesn't seem to have belonged there, 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.240 but the they thought that the burial was UM fourteen 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:03.880 seventies six to fifteen ten C. Yeah, not BC. Yeah yeah, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:09.560 so later, so roughly about five years before the dig happened. Yeah, 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:14.120 and um, I guess of note right, pretty well within 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.320 a limit of like Colombian era. Well yeah, I mean 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.719 it's this is when people are starting to explore the 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.320 new world. It could have been as as much as 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.679 eighteen years after the arrival of Columbus. Yeah, yeah, I 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.959 mean it could have been earlier, but based on this 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.200 time sale, yeah, based on this time stamp. So here's 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.400 what we know about the head itself. Um, though it 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:39.000 was found in Mexico, it looks kind of Roman um, 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.800 or at least a little European to me. To me, 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.880 Steve's making a face already, he's not happy already. I 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.040 would say it looks a little Roman. Yeah, I don't. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:51.760 As we were saying, like, I don't know why I 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.360 have this impression, but I do. I think it's like 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.480 the size of like a bubble head. It's I think 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.040 it's small. It does look kind of small on the photos, 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:00.679 but it could be bigger. But there I have no 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.160 size reference, and I have. No, I've not found any 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.840 description of it, so I I always when I looked 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.040 at it, I pictured it more along the size of 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:12.720 a golf ball. To me, it seems just the definition 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.719 and the grains of the stone. Yeah, I always That's 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:18.240 why I kind of figured it must have big more 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.319 of a golf ball size. Yeah, I figured around that 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.240 size are a little bigger. But yeah, I mean, we're 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:26.720 all we're gonna say, yeah, we're gonna say, we're gonna 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.560 say between a golf ball and a baseball somewhere around 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.600 probably about somewhere around. Again, it's it's annoying because actually 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:35.200 I looked at a lot of websites just to find 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:39.800 one that says how every single website I could that, like, 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.960 I thought, oh yeah, this one's gonna say no, none 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:44.840 of them. That's why I want searching for pictures, because 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:46.439 I thought somebody would have had half a brain and 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.520 put a ruler next to it. But no, it's just 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.560 those two pictures, you know, all you get somebody photoshopped 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:55.599 onto us the image of the ruins or painting of 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.680 the ruins, I should say, yeah, because there's no helpful 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:03.520 total scale right there. People think that it may or 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.720 may not have been a part of a full body 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:09.360 sculpture at some point. Again, that seems like the sort 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:11.679 of thing that you would be able to tell. But well, yeah, 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.199 it would be like this the spot at the neck 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.200 where it broke off, and that's why more pictures would 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:23.120 be helpful, really helpful, or a scale. Yeah, anyway, about 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.080 a third of the ball itself is its face. Would 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.280 you say about a third you mean that that weird, 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.880 pointy headed and hairy thing. Yeah, I'd say the lower 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:36.200 third is a face, and then the middle third is hair, 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.920 and then the top third is like a hat kind 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:41.920 of thing. And it's got a beard too. It has 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.640 a beard, which is interesting because the Indians over here 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.760 didn't have didn't have beer. Yeah, the eyes are closed, 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.760 has a strong nose, I think a pretty strong mouth 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.040 as well. I mean, you know you're carving it, so 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.319 you're not going to be like, oh no mouth, You're 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.880 got carve lines for everything, right and overall, um, I 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:08.160 think the impression is like very sever Severian severian Um, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.959 which is like a very distinct time in Roman history 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.319 where they wore their hair in this kind of not 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:20.600 like this grown out Julian Julius Caesar curly do um, 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:25.200 and then they had like kind of longer curly beards. Steve, Okay, 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.520 it works. He's nodding and shrugging, just for all home. 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.040 I mean, it's it's that. That's it's best that you 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.199 can describe it without somebody looking at an image. I was, 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.280 I was picturing it as you were describing it. That's 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.440 what the face was obviously. Um, since we're talking about 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.480 a thing that there's like two whole pictures of, you 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.880 go find one of those two pictures, probably both. U 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.120 see the episode title as your guide how to spell it? Yeah, 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:53.679 just just you know, highlighting, you know, search. Yeah. The 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:59.640 thing to know about Severian, the Severian era in Rome 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.800 is that that was actually like, um, two hundred c 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.960 e give or take, you know, fifty years maybe after 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.520 I think it was night one. It was a hundred 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:19.720 and ninety five to like two sixty something, Yeah, which 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:21.720 was which will kind of apply that sometime and then 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.240 you know, between then and maybe it made its way 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.400 over here and got into a tomb. Yeah, yeah, which 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.240 is kind of weird. Well yeah a little bit. Yeah, 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.360 it kind of applies, and maybe there were people over 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.120 here from from the you know, the Old World to 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.800 the New World long time before before Columbus. Right, yeah, 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.360 so we're kind of at theories are dune dun dum. 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.040 I know, it's it's crazy that we're at theories. I'm sorry, 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.439 but we're a theories because actually the theories are like 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.360 the most interesting discussion part of this episode to me 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.360 at least. And you've got this broken up as at 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.640 least into two different parts of theories, because I think 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.199 that's what's warranted here. So there's two theories. Either this 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:07.599 is like a Roman sculpture head or it's not. And 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:12.559 then there's also the other part of this theory section 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.240 is um, either it's a hoax or not right, because, 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.080 as our listeners may be thinking, um, this sounds kind 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:24.320 of fake. So it sounds like it's totally made up. 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.400 Who finds a Roman head in a Mexican burial ground? 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.640 You know? Thousand years later? Did you never watch Lost? 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:37.040 Actually I didn't watch Lost, but turn off the computer. 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:40.840 Now we're done, done forever and until you watch all 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.400 the seasons of Lost. So we'll see you in like 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:53.480 a week. Okay, I'm back. Wow whist Oh my god. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:15:00.280 I love the smoke monster man in lock so so 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.760 we start. We're gonna start with like, yeah, where's the 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.120 origin basically right, so let's say it's Roman. Okay, Okay, 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:12.960 let's say it's Roman. So okay, done, It's Roman. Great, 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.960 we all agree. Great. No, So there's actually been a 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:20.040 lot of research done on this. Bernard and Drea is 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.520 a guy from the German Institute of Archaeology in Rome. 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:25.480 And I know that sounds kind of like one of 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.840 those like, um, you know, I t T Technical Institute, 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.840 School of Design. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to offend anyone, 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.360 but those kind of you know, not maybe totally accredited 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.560 university places. But no, this is like a real thing 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.240 that has a lot of really great peer reviewed stuff. 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.560 So it's a totally credible source. Um, here's what he 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.400 has to say on this. It's translated to through two 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.920 different languages, so I'm sorry, but it's a direct quote. 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.080 So it's translated from German to Spanish and then Spanish 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.040 to English. Good. Are you going to read it a 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.560 German accent? I'm not, actually, but you might. Eat. I'll 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:09.800 read part of it the German accent. This, Okay, let's do. 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:14.160 Let's do. Let's do just normal English Joe, you want 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:18.280 me to read it? Okay? Uh? This result quote, This 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.360 result clears up the doubts the colonial manufacture of the 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:26.120 artifact and makes the hypothesis of Roman origin, among other possibilities, applicable. 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.680 The identification of the head as Roman work from the 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.800 second to third century a d. Has been further confirmed 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:37.520 by Bernard Andrea, a director emeritus of the German Is 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.360 to the Archaeotology in Rome, Italy. According to Andrea, the 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.040 head is without a doubt Roman. The lab analysis is 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.440 confirmed that it is ancient. Oh god, this is such 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.000 who we The stylistic examination tells us precisely that it 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.880 is a Roman word from around the second century a D. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.000 And the hairstyle and the shape of the beard present 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:03.760 the typical traits of the Severian emperor period eight, exactly 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:09.320 in the fashion of the epoch. So, okay, so that's 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.479 when that period was was one. You're pretty clive, that's 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.480 pretty close. That was good for just like off the cuff, remembering. Yeah. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.359 So it means either it was actually produced by the 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.479 Romans at that time, or maybe coincidentally somebody else produced 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.480 it and just sort of mimic their style. Yeah, I mean, yeah, 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.280 it's small. It does look it looks I don't know, 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.840 it looks Roman to me. I know that I'm probably biased, 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:35.879 but it looks Roman to me. Yeah, I'm going to 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.160 say you're biased. What do you What does it look 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:42.120 like to you? It looks like something that somebody carved 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:47.720 out of stone. Know what I mean is if you 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.440 take ten people who know how to work clay and 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.879 fire it and make pottery stuff like that today, and 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.520 you said, each of them, I want you to make 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:04.680 a uh terrakan ahead that looks like Joe, you would 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.240 get five that would look kind of similar and five 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.480 that would be wildly different from the other bunch. And 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:16.200 it's all a matter of style and personal style. Because 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.680 the thing that really bugs me is that the in 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.159 this region, it's not as if they were locked into 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.680 a specific style as far as I'm aware. In Mexico, 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.880 I mean, there there was a predominant style, but there 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.200 wasn't anything that said you can't deviate from that. Like 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.600 in Egypt, there was a thing where you had to 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.320 stay within the style or they cut your hands off. 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.600 You know, you you didn't you didn't deviate from that. That. 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.760 While there was a strong influence to do that didn't 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.280 require that you had to, and they got very creative 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.480 with things. So now I see that. But you know, 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.159 one of the things about this one is that stylistically 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.159 it's very different from what is produced in that that 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.719 it is. But like as you say, it doesn't mean 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.040 somebody can't just deviate from the rules and do something differently, 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.879 you guys. I mean, there's there's always innovation, but we 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.320 should have found more works like this in the area. 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:16.439 Well unless and I've made this argument before for other things, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:21.840 unless everybody hated it. Unless you know, this person created 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:26.359 a whole bunch and out of a hundred were thrown 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:32.040 against the wall and destroy because they were terrible, and 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.399 there's nobody liked and nobody could buy them because they 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.080 didn't have money. Yeah, you know, people use something balancet 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:40.680 in a boat, so they're all on the bottom of 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.520 the river. I mean, there's a million reasons why. So 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.840 that's why I admit I struggle with the whole Roman thing. 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.640 It bothers me. Yeah, I mean, so the things for me, okay, 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.520 maybe not Roman, but probably not meso American, because by 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:59.680 and large Meso Americans didn't have facial hair at the time. 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.440 Or if they did, it was really straight, as was 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.359 their hair. You don't see a lot of like curly 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.040 hair Indians. Yeah, I mean basically that's you don't. But 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.720 I don't think this is curly hair. It's totally curly hair. No, 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.200 it's it's it's it's wavy. It's wavy. And you don't 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.400 see a lot of mess Americans with wavy hair either. 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.840 I mean, I'm just okay, you know, we could, we 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.720 could go down that rabbit hole for hours and achieve nothing. 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:32.160 I disagree, but I'm just so there. There's a couple 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:35.280 of the things that back this up from being maybe 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:41.159 Roman maybe not. At the very least, it backs up 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.720 about that time period kind of Um. They did this 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.240 testing that I'd never heard of before. This is totally 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.359 new to me, and I have a coworker slash friend 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.159 who is actually trained archaeologist, and I was like, hey, 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:57.680 have you heard of this? And she was like, I 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:00.240 have no idea what you're talking about, but it's ounds 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:06.120 really interesting. And this is uh, thermo luminescence dating. Through 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.400 testing of thermo luminescence, that's when you take a flashlight 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.360 and you try to find a date on it. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.520 it works really well, especially link. Yeah, So as I 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:21.560 understand it, basically, what this does is it it measures 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:27.479 the amount of radiation or radioactivity that's been accumulated um 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.239 in the object in the object from background radiation, right, 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.640 divided by like the dose that you would like typically 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.320 see by year, and that equals the age. And this 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:41.320 only works on things that have been exposed to intense heat, 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:46.239 So terra cotta that's been fired, for instance, you can 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:50.600 age in this process kind of the catches. It's not 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.760 I actually like asked our Twitter followers to like explain, 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:58.040 like I'm five, and Liam did a really good job 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.159 of this basically like what he said, and I think 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:02.040 this is probably true from the research that I've seen, 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.920 is that it's not like, hey, is this um from 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.879 two hundred and fifty or four hundred and fifty BC. 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.480 It's more like, hey, is this something that what that 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.080 was made like a thousand years ago or was it 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.760 made in the last hundred years? What? What radiation? Do 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.280 you know? Off? Type? What radiation? It is that it's 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:29.199 measuring background radiation that everything accumulates. Well, there's there's certain 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:34.000 certain radioactive things that are measured, Like I can't remember 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:35.679 what it is that went out when they let off 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.359 all the nukes back in the forties, And that is 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.280 something that is in the atmosphere and is measurable, and 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:43.840 you know, you can tell how long things have been 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:46.600 exposed to the air because of that. So I was 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.080 trying to figure out what it is because my reason 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:53.360 to ask something like that is if it is exposed 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:58.040 to background radiation, My next question is how much background 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:03.800 radiation can set object absorbed when buried three stories underground. Well, 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.720 it's still background radiation even buried underground. Yeah, I understand that, 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.199 but it's it's I would presume that there are going 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:13.639 to be other things that are going to be absorbing 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.439 some of that as well. So it's after three floors, 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:18.639 it's not going to get as much maybe not. And 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:20.399 the thing about it, and I don't know exactly what 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.159 it's measuring, so I'm I'm spitballing here and I admit it. 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:24.959 But and the thing. The thing, the other thing too, 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.520 is that after this thing was made and fired and everything, 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:29.800 then it could have been moved all around and background 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:33.240 radiation varies a lot from place to place. I understand 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:36.200 why that would make it impossible that as people said 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:39.560 on Twitter, like, Okay, it's pretty accurate, but you have 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:42.000 to be absolutely certain that like that that was the 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:43.720 only time it was exposed to heat was when it 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:45.920 was fired, right, So like if it had gone through 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.080 a different fire or like exposed to intense heat in 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:51.800 some other way, that will totally throw your dating off. 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:55.720 And in fairness, the thermo luminescence testing said that this 0:23:56.240 --> 0:24:00.600 this head was anywhere between was created any where between 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:06.520 UM eight hundred BC and twelve hundred C, so not 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:12.280 exactly like a small range. Okay, yeah, but also like 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:17.000 realistically we can accept that this is an ancient object, right, 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:21.000 It's not like somebody in the last It's not a 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:23.920 couple hundred years carved it and just like you know, 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:26.639