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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by the Illuminati. Maybe. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon.

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Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more

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Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't you never know what

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Speaker 1: stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited. I'm so excited. I'm Devin, joined as usual

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Speaker 1: by Joe I Steve. This week we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about mystery, uh the text access Kalakadaka's head. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: did pick a mystery that I can't pronounce. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: but seriously, I'm gonna spell it for you guys, um

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Speaker 1: in case you just you know, hit play and don't

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Speaker 1: ever look at the titles or whatever, and then I'm

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Speaker 1: going to genuinely try to pronounce it, and then that

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Speaker 1: might be the very last time I try to say

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Speaker 1: this word. Well, then refer to it as the head. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the TLC head. Yeah, Oh, the TLC head. Yeah. There's

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Speaker 1: no L in there. Though there's an L in there,

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Speaker 1: there's two l's in there, so it's it's spelled t

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Speaker 1: e c A x I C dash c A l

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Speaker 1: I x t l A U A c A So

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Speaker 1: I think it's Pennsylvania. Yeah, texts as waca look tex

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Speaker 1: sas sasakaca perfect sounds great, well done than spot on.

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Speaker 1: I think my a's are a little too hard, but

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Speaker 1: that's pretty good for me. Um. The short summary of

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Speaker 1: this mystery is that in the thirties some guys found

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Speaker 1: a terra cotta head in a grave um and it

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Speaker 1: had no business being in that grave. Oh yeah, this one, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know I should have said yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: mean that is genuinely that's the short thumbary of there

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Speaker 1: that like, some guys found terra cotta head in a

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Speaker 1: you know, it's an out of place artifact. You guys, congratulations,

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Speaker 1: we're doing an artifact, out of place artifact episode. And

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Speaker 1: this has actually been the subject of a lot of

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Speaker 1: scholarly dispute. It has mostly in German. Yeah, so that's

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Speaker 1: been really fun. One of the one of the things

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Speaker 1: about this head that's just really puzzling to being it

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Speaker 1: was found eighty three years ago, and yet it's been

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Speaker 1: around all that time, and it's been they've discussed so

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Speaker 1: much and there's only two actual freaking photographs right in

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Speaker 1: the whole world. None for scale exactly. Nobody's thought to

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Speaker 1: put a ruler in there in there so you can

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Speaker 1: or beer can. Yeah, I mean anything hand even would

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Speaker 1: be helpful. I was very angry about that. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was like text messages. Yeah, I mean it's like

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Speaker 1: it almost at first it looks like there might be

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Speaker 1: four pictures of it, but actually there's one picture that's

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Speaker 1: been reversed. So yeah, there's two freaking pictures. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: let's some talk a little more in detail about this head.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty three, a team of archaeologists led by

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Speaker 1: Jose Garcia Paon I believe it's how you say his name,

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Speaker 1: um found a pre Columbian slash pre Hispanic, depending on

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Speaker 1: which term you'd prefer to use, grave site in the

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Speaker 1: Toluca Valley, which is about forty miles out of current

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Speaker 1: Mexico City, Mexico. The settlement was called Colleague Quaca, which

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Speaker 1: translates generally to like house on the prairie, and that

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Speaker 1: settlement was a pre Columbian post Classic era Mesoamerican settlement.

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Speaker 1: Words there on the prairie different, No, obviously, they ripped. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the pre Columbian for those of you don't know

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Speaker 1: what that means, that's prior to Columbus arriving. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: know you probably know that Moore. Oh yeah no, but

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Speaker 1: thank you for specifying that. I have dates, but for

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Speaker 1: like other stuff, not for pre Columbian um. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Columbus sailed the ocean blue in so for us dummies,

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Speaker 1: the post classic era of Mesoamerican settlement not not. And

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Speaker 1: this is also pre Columbian obviously, is like um one

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Speaker 1: thousand to see, I'm going to be using C E

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Speaker 1: and B C E. I'm sorry with that trick. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a common era, but common okay, I

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Speaker 1: see both ways. Yeah, but they're the like, you know,

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Speaker 1: non denominational religious, non religious scientific way to say that. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of one of the puzzles I've always

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Speaker 1: pointed about that it's BC before Christ and then a

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Speaker 1: D after Christ. So does that mean that there's like

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Speaker 1: a thirty year gap in between the two periods? You

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Speaker 1: know what this is? This is right up there with

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Speaker 1: me getting yelled at for saying year zero. We should

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Speaker 1: leave that at Yeah. So Payon speculated based on the

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Speaker 1: architecture of this settlement that it was probably like closer

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Speaker 1: to the Middle Classic, middle to late of the Classic era,

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Speaker 1: not um the post Classic era. And that was pretty

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Speaker 1: much just the big structures, just based on the kind

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Speaker 1: of archaeology. And we'll talk a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: area in a second. The building was kind of a zigarette,

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Speaker 1: Is that right? Or was it not that he was excavating.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was just the pyramid pyramid. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Well there're seventeen structures, all said and done in this area, so, um,

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Speaker 1: most of them are sacrificial altars or grave sites. Um.

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Speaker 1: But this pyramid was a burial grave pyramid situation. So

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Speaker 1: apparently people had actually settled this area since about fifteen

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Speaker 1: hundred BC, so a long time years. No, So they

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Speaker 1: had started settling in fifteen thousand b c E. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry b c E. And then um, the structures that

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Speaker 1: they were excavating were from like a thousand cekay, So

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Speaker 1: that was about two thousand years yeah. And then at

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Speaker 1: some point, at some point I think it was like

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Speaker 1: this this this one structure that they excavated it. Don't

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Speaker 1: they believe that the tomb itself could have been actually

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Speaker 1: you know, filled up with stuff and sealed up some

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Speaker 1: somewhere around. They don't have a good date on this

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Speaker 1: structure itself, um, and even more so on this layer

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Speaker 1: of stuff that we're going to be talking about, but

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Speaker 1: I do believe that, Yeah, it was in the earlier

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Speaker 1: part of stuff versus the later part of stuff. You're

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Speaker 1: welcome everywhere stuff stuff. Um. And as I said, there

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Speaker 1: were seventeen monuments um or buildings that have been found

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Speaker 1: in this area. Um, most of them haven't been explored.

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Speaker 1: I guess you know, which kind of makes sense. You

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to like visit the sight of human

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Speaker 1: sacrifices and stuff like that. It's kind of fun. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe tor stro Yeah, I wasn't. I was on the

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Speaker 1: soul in like Titicaca, and there's some inca ruins on that,

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Speaker 1: and there was this massive stone table that was there,

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Speaker 1: and I was just thinking that had to have been

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Speaker 1: for secon I'm sure. Yeah, But anyway, there's they're a

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Speaker 1: bunch of sheep running around the island. So there was

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Speaker 1: this little sheep like rubbing us back on the stone. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He was usually to scratch. Yeah, I mean a lot

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Speaker 1: of them were kind of sacrificial areas. Um some of

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Speaker 1: them are like within a city limit, so you can't

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Speaker 1: really investigate that anyway. This one was the kind of

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Speaker 1: pyramid burial ground for it was the I believe it

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Speaker 1: was like a more royal burial. They did not have

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Speaker 1: us pyramids and stuff, you know. Yeah. So, and in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen thirty three dig, the team was exploring this

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Speaker 1: grave site. Like I said, there are lots in that area,

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Speaker 1: but this was not like a human sacrifice thing. This

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Speaker 1: grave site was had floor so as a pyramid, and

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Speaker 1: it had floors in it. And so this discovery was

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Speaker 1: made on the third floor or under the third floor,

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Speaker 1: and the third floor down right where the floor above it,

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Speaker 1: and then there was a subterranean floor. Yeah. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it was the third floor down and it was kind

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Speaker 1: of you know what you would expect to be found

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Speaker 1: in a grave site for this kind of a culture.

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Speaker 1: There's you know, lots of gold, copper, turquoise rock, crystal bone, shell,

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Speaker 1: pottery stuff and in addition to a corpse, yeah and

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Speaker 1: well yeah and a corpse yeah, and then there was

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Speaker 1: a small terra cottahead um and that is our out

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Speaker 1: of place artifact because it doesn't seem to have belonged there,

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Speaker 1: but the they thought that the burial was UM fourteen

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Speaker 1: seventies six to fifteen ten C. Yeah, not BC. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: so later, so roughly about five years before the dig happened. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and um, I guess of note right, pretty well within

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Speaker 1: a limit of like Colombian era. Well yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's this is when people are starting to explore the

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Speaker 1: new world. It could have been as as much as

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Speaker 1: eighteen years after the arrival of Columbus. Yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean it could have been earlier, but based on this

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Speaker 1: time sale, yeah, based on this time stamp. So here's

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Speaker 1: what we know about the head itself. Um, though it

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Speaker 1: was found in Mexico, it looks kind of Roman um,

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Speaker 1: or at least a little European to me. To me,

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Speaker 1: Steve's making a face already, he's not happy already. I

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Speaker 1: would say it looks a little Roman. Yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 1: As we were saying, like, I don't know why I

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Speaker 1: have this impression, but I do. I think it's like

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Speaker 1: the size of like a bubble head. It's I think

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Speaker 1: it's small. It does look kind of small on the photos,

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Speaker 1: but it could be bigger. But there I have no

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Speaker 1: size reference, and I have. No, I've not found any

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Speaker 1: description of it, so I I always when I looked

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Speaker 1: at it, I pictured it more along the size of

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Speaker 1: a golf ball. To me, it seems just the definition

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Speaker 1: and the grains of the stone. Yeah, I always That's

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Speaker 1: why I kind of figured it must have big more

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Speaker 1: of a golf ball size. Yeah, I figured around that

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Speaker 1: size are a little bigger. But yeah, I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: all we're gonna say, yeah, we're gonna say, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: say between a golf ball and a baseball somewhere around

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Speaker 1: probably about somewhere around. Again, it's it's annoying because actually

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Speaker 1: I looked at a lot of websites just to find

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Speaker 1: one that says how every single website I could that, like,

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Speaker 1: I thought, oh yeah, this one's gonna say no, none

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Speaker 1: of them. That's why I want searching for pictures, because

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Speaker 1: I thought somebody would have had half a brain and

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Speaker 1: put a ruler next to it. But no, it's just

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Speaker 1: those two pictures, you know, all you get somebody photoshopped

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Speaker 1: onto us the image of the ruins or painting of

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Speaker 1: the ruins, I should say, yeah, because there's no helpful

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Speaker 1: total scale right there. People think that it may or

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Speaker 1: may not have been a part of a full body

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Speaker 1: sculpture at some point. Again, that seems like the sort

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Speaker 1: of thing that you would be able to tell. But well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it would be like this the spot at the neck

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Speaker 1: where it broke off, and that's why more pictures would

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Speaker 1: be helpful, really helpful, or a scale. Yeah, anyway, about

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Speaker 1: a third of the ball itself is its face. Would

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Speaker 1: you say about a third you mean that that weird,

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Speaker 1: pointy headed and hairy thing. Yeah, I'd say the lower

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Speaker 1: third is a face, and then the middle third is hair,

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Speaker 1: and then the top third is like a hat kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. And it's got a beard too. It has

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Speaker 1: a beard, which is interesting because the Indians over here

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Speaker 1: didn't have didn't have beer. Yeah, the eyes are closed,

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Speaker 1: has a strong nose, I think a pretty strong mouth

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Speaker 1: as well. I mean, you know you're carving it, so

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Speaker 1: you're not going to be like, oh no mouth, You're

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Speaker 1: got carve lines for everything, right and overall, um, I

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Speaker 1: think the impression is like very sever Severian severian Um,

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Speaker 1: which is like a very distinct time in Roman history

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Speaker 1: where they wore their hair in this kind of not

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Speaker 1: like this grown out Julian Julius Caesar curly do um,

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Speaker 1: and then they had like kind of longer curly beards. Steve, Okay,

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Speaker 1: it works. He's nodding and shrugging, just for all home.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's that. That's it's best that you

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Speaker 1: can describe it without somebody looking at an image. I was,

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Speaker 1: I was picturing it as you were describing it. That's

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Speaker 1: what the face was obviously. Um, since we're talking about

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Speaker 1: a thing that there's like two whole pictures of, you

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Speaker 1: go find one of those two pictures, probably both. U

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Speaker 1: see the episode title as your guide how to spell it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just just you know, highlighting, you know, search. Yeah. The

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Speaker 1: thing to know about Severian, the Severian era in Rome

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Speaker 1: is that that was actually like, um, two hundred c

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Speaker 1: e give or take, you know, fifty years maybe after

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Speaker 1: I think it was night one. It was a hundred

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Speaker 1: and ninety five to like two sixty something, Yeah, which

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Speaker 1: was which will kind of apply that sometime and then

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Speaker 1: you know, between then and maybe it made its way

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Speaker 1: over here and got into a tomb. Yeah, yeah, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of weird. Well yeah a little bit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it kind of applies, and maybe there were people over

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Speaker 1: here from from the you know, the Old World to

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Speaker 1: the New World long time before before Columbus. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we're kind of at theories are dune dun dum.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's it's crazy that we're at theories. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: but we're a theories because actually the theories are like

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Speaker 1: the most interesting discussion part of this episode to me

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Speaker 1: at least. And you've got this broken up as at

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Speaker 1: least into two different parts of theories, because I think

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Speaker 1: that's what's warranted here. So there's two theories. Either this

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Speaker 1: is like a Roman sculpture head or it's not. And

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Speaker 1: then there's also the other part of this theory section

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Speaker 1: is um, either it's a hoax or not right, because,

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Speaker 1: as our listeners may be thinking, um, this sounds kind

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Speaker 1: of fake. So it sounds like it's totally made up.

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Speaker 1: Who finds a Roman head in a Mexican burial ground?

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Speaker 1: You know? Thousand years later? Did you never watch Lost?

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Speaker 1: Actually I didn't watch Lost, but turn off the computer.

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Speaker 1: Now we're done, done forever and until you watch all

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Speaker 1: the seasons of Lost. So we'll see you in like

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Speaker 1: a week. Okay, I'm back. Wow whist Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: I love the smoke monster man in lock so so

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Speaker 1: we start. We're gonna start with like, yeah, where's the

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Speaker 1: origin basically right, so let's say it's Roman. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's say it's Roman. So okay, done, It's Roman. Great,

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Speaker 1: we all agree. Great. No, So there's actually been a

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Speaker 1: lot of research done on this. Bernard and Drea is

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Speaker 1: a guy from the German Institute of Archaeology in Rome.

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Speaker 1: And I know that sounds kind of like one of

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Speaker 1: those like, um, you know, I t T Technical Institute,

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Speaker 1: School of Design. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to offend anyone,

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Speaker 1: but those kind of you know, not maybe totally accredited

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Speaker 1: university places. But no, this is like a real thing

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Speaker 1: that has a lot of really great peer reviewed stuff.

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Speaker 1: So it's a totally credible source. Um, here's what he

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Speaker 1: has to say on this. It's translated to through two

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Speaker 1: different languages, so I'm sorry, but it's a direct quote.

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Speaker 1: So it's translated from German to Spanish and then Spanish

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Speaker 1: to English. Good. Are you going to read it a

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Speaker 1: German accent? I'm not, actually, but you might. Eat. I'll

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Speaker 1: read part of it the German accent. This, Okay, let's do.

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Speaker 1: Let's do. Let's do just normal English Joe, you want

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Speaker 1: me to read it? Okay? Uh? This result quote, This

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Speaker 1: result clears up the doubts the colonial manufacture of the

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Speaker 1: artifact and makes the hypothesis of Roman origin, among other possibilities, applicable.

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Speaker 1: The identification of the head as Roman work from the

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Speaker 1: second to third century a d. Has been further confirmed

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Speaker 1: by Bernard Andrea, a director emeritus of the German Is

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Speaker 1: to the Archaeotology in Rome, Italy. According to Andrea, the

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Speaker 1: head is without a doubt Roman. The lab analysis is

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Speaker 1: confirmed that it is ancient. Oh god, this is such

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Speaker 1: who we The stylistic examination tells us precisely that it

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Speaker 1: is a Roman word from around the second century a D.

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Speaker 1: And the hairstyle and the shape of the beard present

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Speaker 1: the typical traits of the Severian emperor period eight, exactly

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Speaker 1: in the fashion of the epoch. So, okay, so that's

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Speaker 1: when that period was was one. You're pretty clive, that's

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Speaker 1: pretty close. That was good for just like off the cuff, remembering. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it means either it was actually produced by the

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Speaker 1: Romans at that time, or maybe coincidentally somebody else produced

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Speaker 1: it and just sort of mimic their style. Yeah, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's small. It does look it looks I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it looks Roman to me. I know that I'm probably biased,

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Speaker 1: but it looks Roman to me. Yeah, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: say you're biased. What do you What does it look

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Speaker 1: like to you? It looks like something that somebody carved

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Speaker 1: out of stone. Know what I mean is if you

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Speaker 1: take ten people who know how to work clay and

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Speaker 1: fire it and make pottery stuff like that today, and

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Speaker 1: you said, each of them, I want you to make

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Speaker 1: a uh terrakan ahead that looks like Joe, you would

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Speaker 1: get five that would look kind of similar and five

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Speaker 1: that would be wildly different from the other bunch. And

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Speaker 1: it's all a matter of style and personal style. Because

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Speaker 1: the thing that really bugs me is that the in

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Speaker 1: this region, it's not as if they were locked into

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Speaker 1: a specific style as far as I'm aware. In Mexico,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there there was a predominant style, but there

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Speaker 1: wasn't anything that said you can't deviate from that. Like

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Speaker 1: in Egypt, there was a thing where you had to

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Speaker 1: stay within the style or they cut your hands off.

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Speaker 1: You know, you you didn't you didn't deviate from that. That.

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Speaker 1: While there was a strong influence to do that didn't

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Speaker 1: require that you had to, and they got very creative

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Speaker 1: with things. So now I see that. But you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things about this one is that stylistically

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Speaker 1: it's very different from what is produced in that that

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Speaker 1: it is. But like as you say, it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: somebody can't just deviate from the rules and do something differently,

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Speaker 1: you guys. I mean, there's there's always innovation, but we

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Speaker 1: should have found more works like this in the area.

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Speaker 1: Well unless and I've made this argument before for other things,

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Speaker 1: unless everybody hated it. Unless you know, this person created

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch and out of a hundred were thrown

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Speaker 1: against the wall and destroy because they were terrible, and

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Speaker 1: there's nobody liked and nobody could buy them because they

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Speaker 1: didn't have money. Yeah, you know, people use something balancet

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Speaker 1: in a boat, so they're all on the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the river. I mean, there's a million reasons why. So

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Speaker 1: that's why I admit I struggle with the whole Roman thing.

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Speaker 1: It bothers me. Yeah, I mean, so the things for me, okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe not Roman, but probably not meso American, because by

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Speaker 1: and large Meso Americans didn't have facial hair at the time.

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Speaker 1: Or if they did, it was really straight, as was

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Speaker 1: their hair. You don't see a lot of like curly

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Speaker 1: hair Indians. Yeah, I mean basically that's you don't. But

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Speaker 1: I don't think this is curly hair. It's totally curly hair. No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's wavy. It's wavy. And you don't

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Speaker 1: see a lot of mess Americans with wavy hair either.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just okay, you know, we could, we

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Speaker 1: could go down that rabbit hole for hours and achieve nothing.

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Speaker 1: I disagree, but I'm just so there. There's a couple

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Speaker 1: of the things that back this up from being maybe

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Speaker 1: Roman maybe not. At the very least, it backs up

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Speaker 1: about that time period kind of Um. They did this

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Speaker 1: testing that I'd never heard of before. This is totally

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Speaker 1: new to me, and I have a coworker slash friend

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Speaker 1: who is actually trained archaeologist, and I was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: have you heard of this? And she was like, I

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Speaker 1: have no idea what you're talking about, but it's ounds

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Speaker 1: really interesting. And this is uh, thermo luminescence dating. Through

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Speaker 1: testing of thermo luminescence, that's when you take a flashlight

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Speaker 1: and you try to find a date on it. Yeah, yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it works really well, especially link. Yeah, So as I

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Speaker 1: understand it, basically, what this does is it it measures

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Speaker 1: the amount of radiation or radioactivity that's been accumulated um

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Speaker 1: in the object in the object from background radiation, right,

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Speaker 1: divided by like the dose that you would like typically

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Speaker 1: see by year, and that equals the age. And this

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Speaker 1: only works on things that have been exposed to intense heat,

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Speaker 1: So terra cotta that's been fired, for instance, you can

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Speaker 1: age in this process kind of the catches. It's not

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Speaker 1: I actually like asked our Twitter followers to like explain,

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Speaker 1: like I'm five, and Liam did a really good job

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Speaker 1: of this basically like what he said, and I think

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Speaker 1: this is probably true from the research that I've seen,

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Speaker 1: is that it's not like, hey, is this um from

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty or four hundred and fifty BC.

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Speaker 1: It's more like, hey, is this something that what that

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Speaker 1: was made like a thousand years ago or was it

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Speaker 1: made in the last hundred years? What? What radiation? Do

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Speaker 1: you know? Off? Type? What radiation? It is that it's

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Speaker 1: measuring background radiation that everything accumulates. Well, there's there's certain

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Speaker 1: certain radioactive things that are measured, Like I can't remember

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Speaker 1: what it is that went out when they let off

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Speaker 1: all the nukes back in the forties, And that is

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Speaker 1: something that is in the atmosphere and is measurable, and

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Speaker 1: you know, you can tell how long things have been

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Speaker 1: exposed to the air because of that. So I was

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what it is because my reason

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Speaker 1: to ask something like that is if it is exposed

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Speaker 1: to background radiation, My next question is how much background

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Speaker 1: radiation can set object absorbed when buried three stories underground. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's still background radiation even buried underground. Yeah, I understand that,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's I would presume that there are going

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Speaker 1: to be other things that are going to be absorbing

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Speaker 1: some of that as well. So it's after three floors,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to get as much maybe not. And

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Speaker 1: the thing about it, and I don't know exactly what

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Speaker 1: it's measuring, so I'm I'm spitballing here and I admit it.

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Speaker 1: But and the thing. The thing, the other thing too,

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Speaker 1: is that after this thing was made and fired and everything,

385
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Speaker 1: then it could have been moved all around and background

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Speaker 1: radiation varies a lot from place to place. I understand

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Speaker 1: why that would make it impossible that as people said

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Speaker 1: on Twitter, like, Okay, it's pretty accurate, but you have

389
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Speaker 1: to be absolutely certain that like that that was the

390
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: only time it was exposed to heat was when it

391
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Speaker 1: was fired, right, So like if it had gone through

392
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Speaker 1: a different fire or like exposed to intense heat in

393
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Speaker 1: some other way, that will totally throw your dating off.

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Speaker 1: And in fairness, the thermo luminescence testing said that this

395
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Speaker 1: this head was anywhere between was created any where between

396
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: UM eight hundred BC and twelve hundred C, so not

397
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: exactly like a small range. Okay, yeah, but also like

398
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: realistically we can accept that this is an ancient object, right,

399
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Speaker 1: It's not like somebody in the last It's not a

400
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: couple hundred years carved it and just like you know,

401
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: toast it. Yeah, planet, it's not. It's not a modern

402
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: day hoax basically, So that helps to kind of satisfy. Sorry,

403
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: that just kind of helps to satisfy for me that

404
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: like it wasn't somebody saying, oh, this is a nice

405
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: recreation of the Italian you know, in the eighteen hundreds,

406
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: and so I'm going to make it and then it

407
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: found its way in. It's reasonable to assume that if

408
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Speaker 1: we are to believe the experts in this area that

409
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Speaker 1: it is actually inspired by that period of time in

410
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Speaker 1: Rome that it is it was probably that was when

411
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Speaker 1: it was made, was about that time? Okay. Yeah. One

412
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Speaker 1: of the questions that I never saw on the eating,

413
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Speaker 1: which is, did anybody ever analyze the material that this

414
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: thing was made out of to try and figure out

415
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: where it was from? Steve? They took two pictures and

416
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,479
Speaker 1: didn't measure it. So there's the answer to not as

417
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: far as I know, okay, and I presumed as much

418
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Speaker 1: this whole thing is. The research on it has been

419
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 1: a little lackluster, but it has many You would think

420
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: they would, they would scrape a little something somewhere. We

421
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: should and we should clarify. That's like from the experts,

422
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: not from us, Like we did a pretty good job

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00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: of researching within resources available. Yes, yeah, alright, well let's

424
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: let's keep talking about this golf ball. So, Steve, Yes,

425
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: if it's not Roman, what do you think it could

426
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: be Atlantean? Okay? But in real life, what do you

427
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: think it could be? I mean, like, there are other

428
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: theories out here. Do you subscribe to one of those theories?

429
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: Do you do? I subscribed to the last one that

430
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: you have in this grouping. Okay, there are, but I mean,

431
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: like in terms of like Roman blah blah blah blah blah.

432
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: What you mean by Roman blah blah blah blah blah blah.

433
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: It's origin? You think it's the last bullet point on

434
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: this list? That one? Okay, fine, let's talk about different thing. Then. Well,

435
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: now let's talk about Roman for a second. Mean there,

436
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: I mean there is a possibility that somehow some objects

437
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: from the Mediterranean could have made their way across the

438
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: sea to the America's agreed? Can we save that and

439
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: tell hoax are real? Because I promised we'll talk about

440
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,479
Speaker 1: that in a minute. Yeah. I just want to talk

441
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: about the origin of it right now, Okay, and then

442
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: we'll decide how something like this could get across the

443
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: ocean or not, depending on what you believe is that okay? Um, yeah,

444
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: there could definitely have been you know, originated right there

445
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: by a local artist. Yeah, so, I mean it could

446
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: have been Mexican. It was found in Mexico. It would

447
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: explain the dating. The only thing is that it would

448
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: be a pretty atypical style for that era. But I

449
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: mean that's not unheard of. The other theories out there

450
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: are that could be Vikings or Celts, but more strongly

451
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: Vikings because they were more you know, seafaring whatever. And

452
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: then they definitely there's much evidence that they were here

453
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 1: ye back when. Yeah, there's some good evidence for that. Um.

454
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: And you know, I guess the thing for me is

455
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: the only thing that doesn't look really Roman is that hat.

456
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: It looks weird. Romans didn't really wear hats like that,

457
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: but Vikings did. They were like little hats like that,

458
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: and it almost does. Yeah, okay, it's terra cotta. It's

459
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: kind of like Turkish. Yeah, it could be shriner's head.

460
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: Oh god, no, but it is. It doesn't look Roman,

461
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: that hat. It does look a little like the Vikings

462
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: warm way more hats than I think like the Romans.

463
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: Really they lived in a climate they did. Yeah, the

464
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: Celts definitely wore hats kind of more like that as well.

465
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: But you know, people in Mexican war hats like that too,

466
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: Like the Aztecs certainly war hats like that. And you know,

467
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: this was at the very end of its existence. This

468
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: was an Aztec settlement. So did the Aztecs kind of

469
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: invade They did at the very very end yeah, and

470
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: then they were like, oh, just kidding, we can't be

471
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: here either by um, so that worked out pretty good

472
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: for them. But yeah, I mean it's hard to tell.

473
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: Most of the people who have done research on this

474
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: head don't think that it came from Mexico, But I

475
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I think Steve seems to think

476
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: that it did come from Mexico. Yeah, I feel like

477
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: it's just there's there's too many things. Do you think

478
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: Mesoamerica do you think I think in the region. I

479
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: think that it had to originate in that that in

480
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: the larger region of where it was found, you know,

481
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: something to have made its way across the Atlantic or

482
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: the Pacific. It's it's too many things have to line up,

483
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: whether they have to happen so fast after the rival

484
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: of Columbus, or just the perfect chain of events for

485
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: it to have made its way there from some earlier

486
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: unknown visitors. Well, there is you know, I mean, the

487
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: Vikings were here quite a bit earlier than a lot earlier,

488
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: and there is strong evidence that there was there was

489
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: extensive trading all across the North American continent. I mean,

490
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: they're going way way back to ancient times and so

491
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: I could totally picture the Vikings coming over with some

492
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: little some little bobbles and stuff like that, in trading

493
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: them off to the locals, and eventually it's traded back

494
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: and forth, and eventually some objects make their way all

495
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: the way down to Mexico City. Yeah, it's entirely possible. Yeah, yeah,

496
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: and that's that's kind of one of the theories as

497
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: to like how it could have gotten there. I tend

498
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: to agree with you. I think of of them, I'm

499
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: willing to say I feel obligated to make the strong

500
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: argument that it's Roman, but I'm much more inclined to

501
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: say it's indigenous in some fashion, or or Viking some

502
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: not Roman. So you don't like the Romans, say I

503
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: love the Romans. I am culturally obligated to say that

504
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: I love the Romans, but I don't. I don't necessarily

505
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: think this is a Roman origin. But yeah, and again,

506
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: it could be of Roman origin. It got traded all

507
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: the way up to Viking Land. It's totally Rome did

508
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: conquer Brittany, I mean, they conquered really far up and

509
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: so it's possible that it came all the way up.

510
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: I guess my argument against that, though, is that it's

511
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: terra cotta, and it's little. It doesn't look like it's

512
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: particularly hardy, but it's also not really Yeah, but it's

513
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: also not particularly dinged up. You know, it's still got

514
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: its nose. For instance, on most of the sculptures you

515
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: see the chip off, they chip off real fast. It's

516
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: still got a lot of the definition in the hair

517
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: and the hat. Even you can see some stroke marks.

518
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: And you would assume that if this was something that

519
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: was being traded hand to hand to hand to hand,

520
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: it's going to lose a lot of definition just by

521
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: being handled all the time. That's true. So I guess

522
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: that's my only argument against it being traded on a

523
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: lot of different ways. But that's also my argument against

524
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: something we're going to talk about a minute. Okay, So

525
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: I guess we can kind of agree we don't know

526
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: where it came from. Yeah, let's say, most likely, it

527
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: probably came from somewhere in the in the area. That

528
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: would seem like the most likely it would, although it's

529
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: it's weird that it came from that area, but yeah,

530
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, stylistically, yeah, way different than anything else. And

531
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: the discount be at the local It wasn't because it

532
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: was buried with like a rich purpose and stuff. That's

533
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: where they got it, was the discount. So okay, let's

534
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: let's attack this now. Is it a hoax or is

535
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: it real? Okay, let's let's go ahead and say it's real.

536
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: It's a real deal. Since we've thrown our chips on

537
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: that so far, let's kind of just like keep talking

538
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: about it being the real deal. So there are three

539
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: kind of sub theories here. For me, one is the

540
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: Joe theory, where like some European group brought it with

541
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: them and I guess, you know, it could be Vikings,

542
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: could be Celtic, could be Italian, I guess even Yeah,

543
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: I mean there were people actually in the window between

544
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: Columbus and fifty and ten. There were people coming over here,

545
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: not not just the big ones you've heard of, and

546
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: so it could have been brought up. Well yeah, and

547
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: there are people that we don't know of who made

548
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: it here and never made it home. Well yeah, you know,

549
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: I mean there's a book that came out quite a

550
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: while back. Actually, it's called The Last Voyage of Columbus,

551
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: and I loaned it out to somebody and never got

552
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: it back, which is annoying. But it's a good buck though.

553
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: I can't but I can't remember the author's name talking

554
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: to you, Dave, Yeah, if you got if you google

555
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: it though, it's about columbus fourth voyage and he came

556
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: across it and they went to an incredible amount of adventures.

557
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: It's an amazing book. But the ships picked up this

558
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: parasitic worm in their holes. There were wooden ships obviously,

559
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: so even though they made it all the way across us, well,

560
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: their ships wound up taking on water faster than they

561
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: could bail and they finally had a ditch on a

562
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: deserted island and they spent about a year ruined on

563
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: this island. Is this a real story? Yeah, this is

564
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: Columbus's fourth voyage. Oh, they want to do some incredible adventures.

565
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: But you got to read this book, and so I

566
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: could totally picture somebody making it all the way over here,

567
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: making out and then oops, our boats are boats, Yeah,

568
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: we can't get back. And so they were. They're made

569
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: very well done. Lots of explorers that made it all

570
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: the way to the America's made it back or made

571
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 1: it here and their boats were perfectly fine, but they

572
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: didn't survive the locals. Yeah, they killed them. That's entirely possible.

573
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 1: They made it here. Their boats were fine, but they

574
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: were like, let's just stay because they think I'm a god. Yaues.

575
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: I have this beautiful flowing beer. Yeah, and so stroking

576
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: it flowing beard. You gotta start working on that before

577
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: people come, you know. See, you know, I mean that's

578
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: kind of that's that's similar to one of the theories

579
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: that's out there right now, which I think is a

580
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: really interesting and compelling theory, and that is that this

581
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: is just like somebody found a shipwreck, you know, that

582
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: like some maybe Italian or Spanish ship was trying to

583
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: make it across they didn't. It was a shipwreck ship. Yes,

584
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: some European ship had this among a lot of stuff

585
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: on it and it shipwrecked on an island. And you know,

586
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: somebody was out there kind of pillaging and found this

587
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: thing and brought a bunch of stuff back and it

588
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: kind of made it into the hands of the rich

589
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: and powerful because they were prized trinkets from some unknown society.

590
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: Unique Yeah. So yeah, yeah, I mean that's interesting. And

591
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: then that also helps to kind of alleviate because the

592
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: big problem with this, right is that people just assume

593
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: that this head signifies human contact and interaction between cultures

594
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: that were was previously undocumented. Whether we totally buy into

595
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: the like Columbius Cortes store Columbus Cortes story of like

596
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: these are the two people who made the first contact,

597
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I don't think anybody in this

598
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: room does, and probably most of the people who listen

599
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: to the podcast don't buy into that. There's definitely European contact,

600
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: whether it be Vikings, whether it be Celts, whether it

601
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: be whoever you know that happened that had to have

602
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: happened before. There's some mysteries that I know we want

603
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: to talk about that even helped to kind of prove

604
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: that a little bit. Well, there's there's some mysteries that

605
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: sort of kind of indicate that there was regular trade

606
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: between the Americas and the Mediterranean, like, for example, the

607
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: cocaine mummies, you know, which I'm sure you've heard of,

608
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: but just for our listeners, researchers were testing tissue samples

609
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: from various Egyptian mummies and they found traces of cocaine

610
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: and nicotine in them. And of course the coca plant

611
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: and the tobac co plant didn't exist anywhere in the

612
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: Mediterranean back when those mummies were mummified, and so there's

613
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 1: an honest and gotten mystery there was there actually trade

614
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 1: between the Mediterranean and the America's and there's other alternate

615
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: explanations for how that stuff got there, Like everybody smoked

616
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: in the museum and they did a light line of

617
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: blow off of the well. I mean, there there are

618
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: lots of stuff. We'll do an episode Sunday about this

619
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: because I have I have all kinds of theories about it. Well,

620
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: another thing that will do an episode on probably is

621
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: the period Reese. Yeah that is you know, a really

622
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: interesting map from fifteen thirteen or something like that based

623
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: on two years of other maps. Yeah, that like show

624
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: some stuff that technically it shouldn't show. I mean, I

625
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: think they're strong evidence for their being trade, whether it

626
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: was like Roman or otherwise between Europe and the Mediterranean

627
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 1: and America. Maybe that's That's one of the best sad

628
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: things about the ancient world is that they were always

629
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 1: I was having wars and they were always sacking cities

630
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: and leveling them and burn the libraries, like the everything

631
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: was lit with fire. I know. It's like it's like

632
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: there could be there could have been ancient records and

633
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: say in the Library of Alexandria, for example, you know

634
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: that tell the whole probably yeah, and then it all

635
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 1: got it all got just vanished. It's the shame. So

636
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: one of the other ideas is that it could have

637
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: been this head could have been traded in Asia, um,

638
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: with the kind of European Asian trade, and then brought

639
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: through trade routes with Asia and then across the Pacific Ocean.

640
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: I don't think that's particularly viable. Shipping is still an

641
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: issue that. Yeah, that's quite a distance for this thing

642
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: to have been bat never do Yeah, we're talking to

643
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: need a longer distance than you know, the whole Grome

644
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: to Viking Land and across and then and then I

645
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 1: can't get anything from the pottery barn to my house

646
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: without a ship. Well that's because you're buying pottery barn. Hey,

647
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: I got, I got good taste. Okay, it's quality. You

648
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: got a good registry, is what you got. Yeah, um, no,

649
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: I mean kind of back to the the shipwreck thing.

650
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: We do know that Rome had you know, stuff in

651
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: the Canary Islands, stuff like that, so they were further

652
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: out than originally anticipated. So something could have floated over there.

653
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: Originally thought, you know, like fifty years ago, we thought whatever, No,

654
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: they weren't nowhere, and then now we're like, oh, they

655
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 1: were everywhere. Yeah, they were definitely under from the Canary Islands.

656
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: They had a trading post out there. Yeah, And I

657
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: could picture even even if they didn't intentionally, maybe they

658
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: got caught in a storm and driven across the ocean. Yeah,

659
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: exactly on the shores of the New World. Yeah, or

660
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: even on an island kind of close to the New World.

661
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you get like slammed on the

662
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: Bahamas or something like that. You know, it's totally possible

663
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: that people are going out there all the time and

664
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: then there's trading happening there, you know. So Okay, interesting

665
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: discussions about it not being a hoax. Right, let's talk

666
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: about maybe this not being totally real. I kind of

667
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: like this one. This one really cracks me up, and

668
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,399
Speaker 1: I think I just wanted to reiterate that it could

669
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: actually have made its way. Again, we had an eighteen

670
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: year window there possibly that this this tomb was sealed

671
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: up possibly his latest so but totally could have just

672
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: come across someone with Colombus or somebody else and then yeah, yeah,

673
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: yeah it could have come It totally could have just

674
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: come across and then you know, been a gift like

675
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: one of the first gifts, because this was a tomb

676
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: of a king, right, I mean, this was a tomb

677
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 1: of a person who was in charge of this area,

678
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 1: and so it would be something that you would expect

679
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,479
Speaker 1: a European to give, you know, hey, here's our gift

680
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: of offering or peace offering. Yeah, and it's totally weird

681
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: and cool, but also I guess it doesn't explain realistically

682
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: why you know, they have this piece of from two

683
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: hundred have been painted, you know, I mean it's a

684
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: lot of pottery. You know that the thing is a

685
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: lot of that kind of stuff was painted, and that

686
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: the thing is not all that impressive in its current state.

687
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: But if it had been painted well and you know,

688
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: gaudy colors or bright colors, it would have been quite

689
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: interestingly for something something like that. I mean, you know,

690
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 1: things that rub off when it's wet and in the ground.

691
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: But I mean it's like, I gotta describe this thing.

692
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 1: It looks to me like the head of a lawn gnome. Yeah,

693
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: has a shorter hat, but yeah, it kind of does. Yeah,

694
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: so okay, so let's talk about let's talk about this

695
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: being a hoax. And we're not saying like it never existed.

696
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: This is a made up story, to be clear. We're

697
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: just saying like there's some internet it's a real thing.

698
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: So it might not have been. It is actually in

699
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: a museum somewhere. It is, and it's been you know,

700
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: a subject of pair of view studies, I guess. But

701
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: according to a informal declaration by a guy by the

702
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: name of Paul Schmidt, who's an archaeologist at Union, the

703
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: National Automatical Autonomous University of Mexico, we've talked about Union before, UM,

704
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: we talked about NIAM when we were talking about the

705
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: Bermeja island. Yeah, so sorry for assuming that you would

706
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: remember what Union was, but UNS talking about uh So,

707
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: according to Mr Schmidt, the head was planted in the

708
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: site by UM they call it participating archaeologist Hugo Madonno,

709
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: who I understand was kind of like an under is

710
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: a student or a low level yellower level Yeah kind

711
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: of yeah, um the buster blue chink. Anyway, according to

712
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: um Schmidt, Hugo wanted to play a practice joke, and

713
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: he placed this head in this sight to be discovered

714
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: and it kind of backfired on him because they were like,

715
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is so cool, Like everybody was

716
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: ha ha ha, there's no way that's real, and instead

717
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: of everybody's like, oh my god, my career is made.

718
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 1: That is part of the part of the reason. Apparently

719
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: you just didn't have the heart to break it to

720
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: the break in two. What's his name? Morano was Mono that, Yeah,

721
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: I just didn't have the heart because he was so

722
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: enthralled by his fund um. Well, according to a lot

723
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: of other people, these are like totally fake allegations. There's

724
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: no way to confirm it because confirm there's no way

725
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: to confirm it because everybody involved his dad at this point, Right,

726
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: you can't just reach out and I know that you've

727
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: got some stuff about this, but the process of documentation

728
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,439
Speaker 1: left a lot to be desired. Yeah, we'll talk about

729
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,959
Speaker 1: that a minute. Let's talk about that. So I guess

730
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: for me, the only thing is that seems like a

731
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: really like to take an artifact right that is genuinely old,

732
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: Like there's no doubt in anyone's mind that this is

733
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: like a genuinely really old artifact to somehow have this

734
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: artifact where the do you get it? To begin with? Right,

735
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: So to somehow have this seriously old artifact and just

736
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I know what, we'll get them. I'll

737
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: sneak in in the night and place this in the

738
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: dig site and they'll like, then they'll see you know.

739
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: For me, I keep picturing like somebody just being like

740
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: and like tossing it like on lunch break, like talking

741
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: into I know that's probably like not how everybody's picturing

742
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: is just like that episode of The Bradies where they

743
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: find the tiki heads they're walking along and trip over

744
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: huh excolutely yeah, But I mean, like, why why would

745
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: this student have this head? To begin with? We must

746
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: have comforted out of the archives, I mean must have, right,

747
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: But then but then it was like but then it

748
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: was never documented that it was missing. Well, you know

749
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: a lot of museums have tons of stuff that's not

750
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: on display. It's just buried and creates, you know, to

751
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: be ordered later. Yeah, and so I can see what

752
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: you could you could totally swipe something like that. So

753
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: the other um, the other thing that could have happened

754
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 1: is that a student could have accidentally placed this head

755
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: into the collection with the stuff from the Mexico city

756
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: that was in the museum, accidentally placed it because I

757
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: didn't mention this before. Oh the misfiling, is that what

758
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: you're getting at? It was misfiled essentially. Yeah. But so

759
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: the thing I didn't say before is that although this

760
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: was reportedly discovered in the nineteen thirty three dig Um,

761
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: pay On didn't actually ever say anything about the head

762
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: until the nineteen sixties. So there's a total possibility that

763
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: he just went to look at his collection and was like, Oh,

764
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: that's weird, there's that head there. Huh. Because in the

765
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, to quote my coworker again, Um, as soon

766
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: as I said, she said when was this discovered? And

767
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: I said three, And she said to me, oh, archaeology

768
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties was shady. Yeah. Have you never

769
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: seen an Indiana Jones movie? Yeah? And just steals all

770
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: the gold runs? Yeah? Yeah, I mean for her especially,

771
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: you know. And I'll tell you some more stuff that

772
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 1: she was kind of talking about later. But pay On

773
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: wasn't on site of the time he had his students

774
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 1: working on this dig, and because of that, there's almost

775
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,479
Speaker 1: no documentation that happened around this dig. There are there's

776
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: not a single photo that I can find of this

777
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: dig site. There's no documentation as far as I can

778
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: find of this excavation. You know, usually when you're doing

779
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: an excavation, you're drawing detailed diagrams. That's why the streaming grids. Yeah,

780
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: you're like making note of everything, everything you're finding. You're

781
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: taking picture. Is every time you find something, every time

782
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: you destroy something, you're taking a picture so that you

783
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: can say, here's my proof that I found this. That's

784
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 1: sites that are like only like one or two excavating. Yeah.

785
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: The quote that she said, which I think is like great, right,

786
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: is she says, um, the number one thing you have

787
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: to know about archaeology is that it's destructive. In order

788
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: to recover artifacts, you have to tear through the land.

789
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: And if you don't document and draw and photograph every

790
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: last speck of the site, you can't argue anything. There's

791
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: no doovers in archaeology. Context is everything, and an artifact

792
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: isn't important unless it's found in relation to things, which

793
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: is so true. Totally makes sense. Right, So we're saying

794
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 1: we're taking on faith pretty much, we're taking on the

795
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: word of students in the ninety thirties who may or

796
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: may not have been actually students, that they found this

797
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: head with all this other stuff. But it's totally possible

798
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: this head was found in Italy for all we know,

799
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 1: and it had been misspiled and placed with this collection.

800
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: But since there's no pictures, no documentation, no nothing, and

801
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: Payon didn't talk about it until the nineteen sixties, that

802
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: leads to me to believe that he didn't even know

803
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: what existed until he went to go view the collection

804
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: and thought, that doesn't seem right. Maybe they did find it. Okay,

805
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: that's interesting, weird, let's talk about that. You know that

806
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: this makes me think of what, So you guys know

807
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: this that you know, I grew up in southern Oregon

808
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: and there is a lot of Native tribes that lived

809
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: in the area because it was just chuck full of

810
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: rivers and it's all silty ground and if you go

811
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: to the right areas, for years, people would always be

812
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: digging around looking for arrowheads. Yeah. I did that the kids.

813
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: And what really cracked me up is it was a

814
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: known thing to go to, you know, the areas where

815
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: we're just outside of it. That the tour would be

816
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: and say, oh, well, this is this is an m

817
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: qua arrowhead found at this side, and this is this

818
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: kind of arrowhead found at that side, and blah blah blah,

819
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: And for a dollar fifty it can be yours and

820
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: see this is where they tied it on, and and

821
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: people will be like, oh wow, this is great, and

822
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: they tell their children and they'd be passed down through histories.

823
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: Look at this great arrowhead that I bought that was

824
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: found from this side. And really what it was is

825
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: it was Jim Bob down the street with an angle

826
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: grinder and some rocks and he was grinding him and

827
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: chipping him and making fakes that dated correctly if you

828
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: just dated the material like it makes me think of

829
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: oh wow, this would have just been so easy to

830
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: just throw in the mix. And I guess there for me,

831
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 1: from all of the things that I've seen, people pretty

832
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: much agree that this is a genuine ancient artifact. And

833
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: that's why I say throw in the mix. I'm not

834
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: saying that some guy made it with an angle green shop,

835
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: but it would be pretty easy. For the amount of

836
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: oversight and like a burden of proof that we've got

837
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,720
Speaker 1: with this thing, it would be so easy for somebody

838
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: to just be like, I know, or somebody to be like,

839
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's in the box. It's probably part

840
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: of it, I am I only yeah, yeah, But the

841
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: thing about it is is that it's not it doesn't

842
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: appear to be a native artifact. And so how did

843
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: how did it wind up in the museum where you

844
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 1: actually get accidentally mixed in with these objects from that tomb? Yeah,

845
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: I don't know collection. Yeah, I mean I could have

846
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: been it could have been left over from something from

847
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: some of the museum that they just didn't happen to return.

848
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: I mean maybe, I mean things you gotta remember, you

849
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: know that that era was kind of volatile for institutions.

850
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: You know, things would spring up and collapse pretty quick,

851
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: and so somebody could have amassed a collection and said,

852
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 1: I'm now going to donate it to this museum because

853
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: that's in my will and testament, and then it goes

854
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: to that museum, which in that museum instantly folds and

855
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 1: their stuff is just then shuttled to some other museum.

856
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: I mean, there's that's an easy process, and that kind

857
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: of stuff happened all the time. Yeah, yeah, I know,

858
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: it's a little easier in this case to suppose that

859
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: it was just human incompetence or carelessness. Yeah. I mean,

860
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: for me, like, the thing I keep picturing is, you know,

861
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: you've got your like, you know, minimum wage assistant helping

862
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: to set up this exhibition, and they've got their gloves

863
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: on and you know, they're placing stuff, and they think, Okay,

864
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: I gotta take that head away next, right, and then

865
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I'm just kidding. It's five Okay, I'll

866
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: do that tomorrow. But tomorrow comes and they're not there.

867
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: It's the other hungover or yeah whatever, or they just

868
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: like forget right and that head they're like, okay, yeah,

869
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: that's probably part of that's probably part of it. Yeah,

870
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there's lots of other stuff here. It's probably

871
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: part of it. But I guess, you know, for me,

872
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: it's just it's so hard because there's just no documentation

873
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: on this thing, and I really wish there was, And

874
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: that's why it's an unsolved mystery. The reason for this

875
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: being an unsolved mystery is not because we couldn't. This

876
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: is one of those ones right where it's like they

877
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: had just taken a couple of dang pictures of that site,

878
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: we would know exactly what was happening when you originally

879
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: pulled all the all the many many things out of

880
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 1: this grave. If they had just made an inventory, Yeah,

881
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: you know that we could even know if it was

882
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 1: even in the original grave or not. That's one huge question.

883
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: And then of course it opens up some other questions

884
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: of like, well, how to get there if it was

885
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: a part of that grave. But by and large, for me,

886
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: it's just there's so many questions, and I just it's

887
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: frustrating because if do course or do process had been followed, Yeah,

888
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: the so there are many ways it could have gotten

889
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: into that grave or gotten into that collection. We just

890
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: don't know where it got in along the line. Okay,

891
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: well what I mean, what do you think, Steve? I

892
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: I still think that it was probably local. Yeah, it's

893
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: I still think that it's probably from the region and

894
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,439
Speaker 1: it was part of the original burial and they totally

895
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: found in. Yeah, I don't. I feel like it probably

896
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: wasn't inserted just because of the age of it. It

897
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 1: just seems like it's in too good of shape to

898
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: have gone through anything else, because most artifacts that are

899
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: dug up are not in good shape. Yeah, but you gotta,

900
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: especially you're like Roman and European based stuff like that.

901
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,240
Speaker 1: It's never in good shape. It's rarely in good shape

902
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: because their city has always got sacked, Their stuff always

903
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: got tossed around. Oh yeah, of course. The thing is

904
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: if it was made locally, it must have been kept

905
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: in something the equivalent of the museum itself to have

906
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: survived so many years. I mean we're talking a long

907
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 1: long time before the thing finally got put into somebody's grave. Well,

908
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: we might be according to that thermal luminescence dating, it

909
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: could have been as late as like twelve. The thing

910
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: that the thing that we haven't talked about though, is

911
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: that it's possible that it wasn't the first time that

912
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: it was put in somebody's grave. I mean, robbing is

913
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: an old practice, and it could be that somebody said,

914
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: we don't have a big enough hall to honor the king. Uh, well,

915
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: bob down the down the road. Nobody liked him anyway,

916
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: he was bobbed the jerk rulers, so we're going to

917
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 1: go ahead and rob his stuff. And then they just

918
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: they went in and carted it all out and dumped

919
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: it the new one. And I mean I guess. The

920
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,479
Speaker 1: other frustration for me is that since we don't really

921
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: know how this was, like, was the head a little

922
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: more buried than everything else? And if so, is it

923
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: possible that that it was, like we well, maybe it

924
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: was even like a child's toy that got buried like

925
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: years before this newer civilization came in and they built

926
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: their pyramid above it and then used it as a

927
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: traditional You know, there's there's so many possibilities here that

928
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 1: just like kids leave their toys everywhere you do. Yeah,

929
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: so I don't know. I think it's going to have

930
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 1: to stay in history. I think so too. So we'll

931
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 1: post probably both of the pictures stuff this. Yeah, well

932
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: that's that's a lot of searching as long as well

933
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: as some of our research. And I'm gonna just preemptively

934
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: apologize for like the background color of some of these

935
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: websites that I'm gonna post, by the way, in the pictures,

936
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: I will I'm gonna photoshop a ruler into that. Yeah,

937
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 1: just so you can get us some idea, just photo

938
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 1: shopping about five of them. Yeah, yeah, different scales just

939
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: rotate and well, yeah, or maybe I'll photoshop like a

940
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: beer can or something something like that. Yeah, anyway, you

941
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: can find all that stuff on our website. That website

942
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: is thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can obviously listen

943
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: to us on iTunes. UM. If you're listening to us

944
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,839
Speaker 1: on iTunes, you should, um, you know, subscribe and rate

945
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: and or review not comment review you are probably you

946
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: may be listening to us on some other you know,

947
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 1: of the tons of streaming sites. If you're doing that,

948
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: you should leave us a comment and rating or review

949
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: and rating if you can, and subscribe if you can.

950
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 1: Those are all the ways that people find us. Obviously, Yeah,

951
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: more people to do that find us. As of the

952
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 1: date of this recording, you know, that's happened enough that

953
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: there's a one of the sites that streams this is

954
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 1: send us an email and we're being featured because of it.

955
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: So pretty awesome. It's great. We've got some social media

956
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 1: if you want to connect with us. To be clear,

957
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: we run our own social media. UM, so you are

958
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: literally interacting with us unless you you know, hit the

959
00:55:51,600 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: mod team on Facebook, hit something bad on Facebook. UM,

960
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: we've got the group in the page. We're thinking sideways.

961
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: Actually we're thinking side was podcast. We're on Twitter, We're

962
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: thinking sideways. Um, we've got the subreddit which is our

963
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I know this is like all shocked to

964
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: you that we might have those handles crazy. It was

965
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,399
Speaker 1: not cheap to secure those handles. It was actually super

966
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: cheap represent free. UM. If you have comments, concerns, just suggestions,

967
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: anything that warrants a discussion, UM, you can give us

968
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: an email. That email addresses Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail

969
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: dot com. We do try to respond to all. We've

970
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: used to say that we respond to everything. Now we're

971
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: saying we try to respond to everything because sometimes we

972
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: just can't. Um, We've been getting a lot of email

973
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 1: lately and we just don't have the capacity to unfortunately

974
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: respond everything. So sorry guys. UM, we try really hard.

975
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: If you want to support the show, you can do

976
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: that in a couple of ways. You can buy merchandise.

977
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: There's smug stickers, slamps, slag and those are on Zazzle

978
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: and red Bubble. Those are linked on our website. Uh,

979
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 1: you can do one time donation on PayPal that their

980
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: link is there, as well as you can do a

981
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: continuous or reoccurring donation on Patreon, which is patreon dot

982
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: com slash Thinking Sideways and that's usually like a pay

983
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: per episode. We're not charging you for episodes. We're just

984
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: saying you will donate per episode, and and it's totally voluntarily.

985
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: Volunte's been donating. It's been amazing. You guys are like

986
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: really doing a great job helping us with the show.

987
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: We're not unlike some podcasts that are out there. We're

988
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: not trying to make a living on this thing. We're

989
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: not trying to make money on it. We're genuinely just

990
00:57:53,280 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: trying to support our really expensive hobby. So thank everyone,

991
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: And um, I guess that's it for this. So I

992
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: was literally just gonna make that joke. No oh yeah,

993
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: I saw that Comte fie. Guys,