WEBVTT - My Team is Overworked - and I'm the Boss 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.880 My colleagues, We'll stop commenting on everything I get my 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.360 assist people and meeting. Why does my coworker keep taking 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.240 credit for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi? 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.720 I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager podcast, where 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.520 I answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.640 from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.840 perfume to what to do if you drink too much 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:29.080 at the company party. Let's get started. I hear from 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.280 a lot of people who feel overworked, that they're expected 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:36.560 to work unreasonable hours and their workload is just unmanageable. 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.479 Today's guest is approaching this issue from the other side. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.640 She's a manager whose team seems to be working too much, 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.519 and she's wondering how she can help them get it 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.680 under control and work fewer hours. Hi, and welcome to 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.880 the show. Hi, thanks for having me. So you wrote 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.680 to me and you said you're a somewhat new manager 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.720 at a nonprofit and you've found that the dominant culture 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.360 on your team is why where people work all the time. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:05.160 Despite your attempts to help people manage their workloads, you're 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.959 seeing people routinely working during vacations even when someone else 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:11.760 has been assigned to take care of their email for them, 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.080 and you see other people just never taking any time 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.680 off at all. Is that basically the situation. That's pretty 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.000 much it. And you mentioned that you're new to the job. 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.000 When did you come on board? So now I've been 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:28.200 here a year, I still feel new. Is the strange part. 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:32.039 I think because my team as a team predates me, 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.360 and our colleagues who work at our work site abroad 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.120 all predate me by many years. And so I still 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.039 I think feel like I've walked into a situation that 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.600 exists outside of my control. That makes perfect sense, Okay, 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.040 And in your email to me, you wrote, I'd like 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:52.600 to help change the culture, but I can't figure out 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:57.080 if I'm being ineffective, if I'm battling personalities that overwork 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:02.160 feeds like workaholics, people pleaser and over committers, if they 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.280 really are too overwork to define balance, or if I 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.640 am somehow creating an environment that reinforces the tendency to 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:14.000 overwork while paying lip service to wanting balance. I will 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.919 add one more possibility to that list. It could be 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.840 that the broader culture of your organization puts pressure on 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.520 people to work crazy hours, or that the last manager 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.520 on this team before you came in did, and so 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:31.920 people don't really believe that they can and should shift gears. 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.440 I think that's a big problem. Tell me a little 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.200 bit about the broader culture of the organization beyond just 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:40.400 your team. Are you seeing that kind of behavior on 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.680 other teams as well? I am. So we're the only 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.720 team in this country and everyone else is six hours 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.840 ahead of us. Um, we're a small group, and the 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.720 people abroad are a very big group, and they work 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:59.640 all the time. They work at our work site with 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.360 our clients, so and some of them live there, so 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.200 they don't have a break. Um. I mean they get 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.160 time off, but in the regular twenty for our cycle, 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:13.000 they're working or in that space all the time. The 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.520 other thing that I think we see is that because 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:21.040 we're all very mission driven people and our mission feels urgent, 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.280 there is this sense that if you can do something, 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:28.919 you will do something because you care about the mission 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.160 and you want to better the lives of our clients 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.400 as much as you can. Um. In addition, I think 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:39.640 the broader culture is also impacted by the time difference 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.400 that because so many of our working hours don't overlap. 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.400 There is kind of an impulse to want to be 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.200 available when your colleagues are, so I think the thing 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.680 that you're identifying about mission driven nonprofits is probably a 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.200 huge part of this. I spent my whole career in nonprofits, 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.280 and I know exactly what you're talking about. When you 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:02.880 feel like you're doing very important, crucial, urgent work, it's 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:04.880 hard to say, well, it's five o'clock, I'm going to 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:08.120 stop working for today When you know that if you 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:09.840 did put in more work, you could have a real 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.080 impact on people's lives or on an issue that you 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.760 care deeply about. It it's hard to work with other 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.960 people would consider regular hours in that context, and especially 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.359 I mean nonprofits fall prey to this all the time. 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:28.279 It can very quickly become that that is the culture there, 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.320 and people can start to feel like if they don't 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.200 work those sorts of hours that they either are less 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.680 committed or that look less committed, and they'll be judged 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.880 for it. Whether or not they really would be judged 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:40.680 for it. I mean, in many organizations they would be, 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:42.680 but but I think there are also ones where they 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.880 wouldn't be. But it's hard to know which one you're in. Yes, 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.799 I agree with you, And I think that that's also 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:55.240 the it's it becomes a way of of proving it 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.800 to yourself, you know. And I think that's part of it, 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.680 to the thing that we tell our yourselves about working 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.159 in a nonprofit and being paid less. Because you work 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.640 in a nonprofit, you make up for it and meaning, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.640 and so you want that meaning to be as big 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.760 as it can be, you know. It drives itself somehow 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.840 that way too. Yeah, And it really I think working 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.400 on an important issue day in and day out can 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.080 take over your life in some ways. Like it's really 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.159 I don't know. I always found especially when I was 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:23.880 working like I used to work for an animal protection 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:27.200 charity where we were dealing with animal suffering and animal abuse, 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.520 and that gets into your head and it stays there 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.120 all the time. And it's that's a thing that it's 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.760 hard to not think, I don't know, it's hard to 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.920 get the balance right and and feel like you're fulfilling 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.520 your moral obligations, even though if you had a regular job, 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.200 you wouldn't question if you were fulfilling your moral obligations 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:47.760 by going to work at a bank and then coming 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.000 home at six o'clock. Yes, yeah, I think it's really 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.640 it's difficult. You know, you get so much meaning from it, 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:59.359 you get so much worth, um, and then you always 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.640 know you can see the gaps, or you can see 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:03.400 if I had done this better, we would have gotten 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.400 this money, If I had done this better, the clients 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:10.120 would have felt this. And those are those are tangible 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:11.719 and they can haunt you in a way, and I 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:15.640 think that drives it. Yes, absolutely well. Let me ask 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.680 you this, do you have a sense from your own 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.440 boss and from management of the organization above you in general? 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.520 Is there room if you were able to get through 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.440 to your team members and actually succeed in getting them 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.920 to work more reasonable hours. Is there room for that 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.359 for the organization to be okay with it, or is 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.919 your sense that maybe that would make waves. That's a 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:43.440 great question. Um. I think for some of my staff 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:48.200 there could be room for that, you know. UM. I 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:53.279 mentioned my letter that we recently grew our team and 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:55.480 part of the reason we did that is that we 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.240 had work that needed to be done, new work. And 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:05.640 I said to my board essentially that our existing sort 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.480 of person who gets everything dumped on them couldn't get 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.960 anything else dumped on them and that if we were 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:13.960 going to take on this project, we needed to hire 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.120 for it. And they heard me and they hired for it, 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:18.920 and so I was able to make space and get 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:23.000 the organization to make space in that way. But I mean, 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:27.080 I do think there are limits to that. Um. And 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.560 you know, in sort of a dated day way, do 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.760 I think that our colleagues overseas are going to stop 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:39.800 having needs at five AMR time? No, Like, that's just 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.800 the nature of the beast. Um. And I don't know 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:45.000 if I could convince my staff that it's okay not 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.720 to wake up at six am to check your phone 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.840 when you don't need to be getting up until seven. Yeah. Well, 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.960 the fact that they did respond with more staffing is 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:58.480 a really good sign, because a lot of organizations wouldn't 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.560 have So that's good. That indicates there's some degree of 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:03.960 reasonable airness at least. But I'm sure you're right that 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.160 there are limits to that. I mean, just that's like 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.880 the financial reality for most organizations that there will be 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.440 limits to that. UM. Let me ask you this. I mean, 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.800 you're talking about people needing things at five am here time? 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.120 Do they? I mean, is it urgent that they get 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.280 a response, then what what would happen if they didn't? 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.200 So this is something I think about a lot um. 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.000 So sometimes they do need a response then, and sometimes 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.480 they're writing it because they have the moment in their 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.040 work day to write it. And we have to be 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.920 able to triage right. We have to be able to 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.400 say this is urgent and you need me to do 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.120 this now, or I know something is urgent is going on, 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:41.880 I'm going to make sure I check my phone at 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.080 thirty before I go to bed, or wake up early 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.360 to check my phone because of this specific time sensitive need. 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.160 But most of the time it's not those things. And 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:56.080 I think recognizing that is is really important. And I 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.679 also kind of want to encourage a little bit of 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.800 self reliance on the part of some of my colleagues 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:09.160 overseas um that we don't always have the answer here, 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.640 and if it's the middle of the night, unless it's 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.040 a truly urgent matter, they shouldn't expect to get an 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.040 answer from us. And that's not because I, you know, 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.160 I don't want to be available when they need me. 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.240 It's more because I don't always know that it's a need, 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.360 um that there's somehow been a culture of learning to 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:36.559 rely on us for certain certain kinds of information as 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:41.000 opposed to feeling secure in your knowledge base. Yourself were 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:45.080 the fundraisers and they're the program people, but you know 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.760 they know about both sides. That makes perfect sense. Let 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.840 me ask you this, do you trust your colleagues overseas 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.319 if you were to kind of explain to them, hey, 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.160 we have people who aren't getting sleep because they're getting 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.040 up at five am our time because they're worried it 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.240 needs something. Would you trust them to hear that context 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.200 and to say, well, let me actually back up and 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.280 tell you what I'm thinking. I wonder in this case, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.800 if there is a way for you to have them 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:15.000 channel urgent stuff differently, Like if there could be a 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.720 particular phone number or a particular email address that is 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:21.559 for middle of the night urgent stuff. And I wonder 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.720 if you would trust them to have the right judgment 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.120 to decide what needs to go there and what doesn't. 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.560 Because if you could trust them to do that, you 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.480 could set up a channel that is just for truly 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.920 urgent stuff. And you could even have that set to 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:38.880 like a wake someone up if it needed to, or 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:40.920 you could have like one person who was charged with 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.840 checking it for everyone who may be agreed to work 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.280 a different those hours, like a different sort of shift almost. 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.360 But to make that work, you would have to trust 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.880 that your overseas colleagues would use it appropriately. So I 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:57.320 think this is a really great question. Um. What I 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.520 think I would love to do, just listening to what 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.120 you're saying, is to say, essentially, when it's urgent, what's 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.280 app me, and I'll make sure my what's up notifications 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.960 are always on. The qualm I would have about doing 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:13.000 that is that my boss is one of our overseas colleagues. 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:19.040 Our executive director is based overseas, and while he doesn't 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.480 think I should do what he does, he only sleeps 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.920 a handful of hours per night, And so I'm even 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.560 hesitant to say to him, you know, what, do you 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.359 mind not emailing me from these hours to these hours? 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:38.280 Because I want to sleep to sleep, But when I 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.640 know he doesn't, when I know he works himself way 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.720 too hard, and he doesn't want me to do to 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.400 myself what he does to himself. But you know, I 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:50.040 understand how overwork happens, right. I see the tendencies in 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.920 myself to not want to make waves there too. Let's 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:56.040 pass here for a quick break and we'll be right back. 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.680 I mean, it might be that you actually need someone 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.319 on your staff who works a weird schedule who can 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.880 handle those nighttime things. I don't know enough about the 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.320 context to know, but I don't want the solution to 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.960 be that we just move the whole burden over to you. 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.040 But I do think there's probably something there that if 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.960 you just have a specific emergency channel and people know 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:24.920 to use that, then they can go on emailing you 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.760 just like normal. But then then the other piece of 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:29.280 this is that you have to convince your staff to 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.200 stop waking up at five am to check their email. 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.599 But part of that will be that they know that 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.240 emergencies are getting handled through this other channel. Right, No, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.240 I think you're I think you're definitely onto something there 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.199 that if we said, you know, WhatsApp is going to 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:48.000 be our emergency content means of contact, that we would 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.240 turn our notifiers off on our email or turn the 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:54.000 ding off on our email and and trusted after a 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:56.720 period of time. And I do think some of my 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:01.520 staff would respond to that and would trust it. You know, 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.840 I had one of my new staff was getting emails 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.760 on the weekend and was it was really nice. Was 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.199 new enough to this world that she said to me, 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:12.520 what do you want me to do when I get 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.480 emails from this person on the weekend? And I said, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.240 don't respond to them until Monday. She said, okay, So 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.200 you know, she trusted that. I think some of my 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.760 older staff, my existing team from when I came in, 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:29.439 would I would have a little more trouble trusting the limitations. Yeah, 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.200 and sometimes it takes seeing it working for people to 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.400 begin trusting it. So it might mean that you have 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:39.640 to do a lot of coaching and reinforcing on the 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.960 system for the first few weeks, and also that you 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:47.080 have to really talk explicitly to people about why this 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.160 is okay. And also don't assume they'll just believe you. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.520 They might be thinking, like you say, it's okay, but 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:54.079 I can think of all these times that it wouldn't 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.480 have been okay, And so it might really help to 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.520 walk through a bunch of concrete situations, like to say 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.600 to them, think back to the last three months, what 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:04.920 sorts of things came up that would have been a 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.200 problem if we were handling our workflow this way, and 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.000 then talk those through and if you can talk those 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.040 concrete worries through with them and say, okay, well, in 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.440 that situation, here's how we would handle that. Now, that 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.880 might be really key in putting some of their fears 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.000 to rest. I think that's a great idea. And I 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.400 think that also might be how I try to handle 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:33.360 the checking email on vacation behavior, you know, which, Look, 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.720 if person wants to check in their email once a 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.920 day on vacation, I'm not really going to fight that. 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.840 That's in some ways their decision. Um. But I've had 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.800 more sort of egregious problems with that where I had 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.560 a staff member who has gone for a few weeks 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.560 on kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity, and 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.560 I was checking that staff member's email while they were gone, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.360 and this was the agreed upon response. And I was 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.720 in the mailbox and I saw emails moving around around 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.600 me and going red and unread, and I knew they 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.360 were in there. Um. And on the one hand, I thought, 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:14.800 you have a really special opportunity. I really wish as 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.640 a person in your life that you would have this 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:22.440 opportunity to enjoy it. But also, I'm spending my work 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.280 time trying to do some of your work and you 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.440 doing it as well is not actually a good use 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.960 of anybody's time. Yeah. Did you ever have any version 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.800 of that conversation with them when they got back? Yeah? 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.640 So when they got back, I focused more on the 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.320 first one. I was very new at this point. I've 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:45.000 been the manager six weeks, um, and I really focused 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.160 on the you know, this is not I'm hoping to 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.560 build some kind of work life balance in here. And 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.280 it's really important to me that when you're gone, you 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.160 have the ability to be gone. And it's important for 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.800 all these reasons, including burnout and including your mental health 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:00.920 and the fact that you know you're a very valued 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:03.680 staff member and I want to keep you as long 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.440 as I can, and I can't do that if you 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.720 know you're going to end up feeling burnt out or 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.320 overburdened by work. But I think the second part about 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.280 staff time didn't really occur to me until I've been 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.320 working with them longer and realized that there was some 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.560 duplication of efforts there. Um and I have I haven't 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.440 had that conversation now that I think about it, And 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.040 that might be a a better avenue because it doesn't 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.400 appeal to their personhood, right, It appeals to their worker identity, 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.760 which is so strong anyway, I think that is worth saying. 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.440 I mean, I wouldn't go back. And if this happened 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.320 a year ago, obviously you don't want to, but like 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.880 if it happens, to bring it up again. But if 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.920 it happens again, definitely. And also you could say it preemptively. 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:48.840 If someone is going on vacation and you know that 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.640 they're likely to have that tendency, you could say, I 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.760 know that you're really dedicated and you might be tempted 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:55.920 to do this. Here is a reason that I'm asking 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.040 you not to, so it might be interesting to say 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.560 that ahead of time. The other thing you can do 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.720 is is maybe it's funny. I always tell people to 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.719 take this approach when they're talking to their manager. When 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.520 they want something from their manager and their word the 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.840 manager won't agree. I always say, ask for a limited 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.160 time experiment, because that's easier to get a yes too. 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.520 And I think there's a version of that that could 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.120 work for you here too, which is that I think 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:20.920 you might have better luck if you say to someone 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:23.600 who's about to go on vacation, who you know as 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.760 a workaholic, you could say you could talk about all 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.960 the reasons why this is important, and then you could say, um, 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.040 I know this might not be like a permanent change 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:33.479 that you want to make. I want to ask if 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.680 we can do it as an experiment this time, because 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:37.120 I think we can find a way to make it work. 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.120 Will you agree to see this trip as an experiment 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:41.800 and then we can see how it goes when you're back. 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.520 I think that's a good idea. I could definitely do that. 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:46.960 It's so much easier for people to commit to that 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.480 than to commit to what might feel like a really 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.000 fundamental change in the way that they relate to work. 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.080 Mm hmm, that's true. I want to go back to 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:59.240 something you said earlier about your boss never sleeping, because 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.280 I can understand why that would would unsettle you a bit. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.560 And even if your boss has been very explicit about 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.399 not expecting that of you, I mean, our bosses model 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:15.199 stuff for us, and that's hard. Um My strong suspicion 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.520 is that if you have seen evidence in other ways 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.479 that your boss is a reasonable person, that they probably 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.520 do not, in fact expect you to only sleep three 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.640 hours and night too. But I think if you're ever 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.439 feeling weird about it. You could tackle that head on. 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.000 I mean, you could say, you know, I've been thinking 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:32.920 about these workload issues on my team. I'm trying to 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:34.760 find ways to make sure that people are actually coming 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.840 to work well arrested, because I want them not burning 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.399 out and I want to be able to retain people 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.640 in the long term and have them doing their best work. 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.359 I mean, you might not even need to explain all 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.040 that it might be. It might be obvious, but if 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.120 you feel like in your culture you need to explain 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.320 it and do um and then you could say, you know, 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.520 it hasn't escaped my notice that you sleep hardly at all, 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.360 and sometimes it can. I worry that it will make 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.719 me or other people on our team feel like they 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.359 don't really have standing to say, Hey, I really need 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:04.960 a full night's sleep, and I just want to check 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:06.879 that with you and make sure that I'm being crazy 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.919 in thinking this, and I suspect you will get reassurance. 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.919 I suspect so as well. And I I hadn't thought 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.960 until you said that about the impact that his schedule 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.120 and his habits probably have on my team, even though 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:25.439 they're insulated both by distance and now by me. Because 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:29.160 for a long time in the absence of my predecessor, 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.600 they were not reporting to him, but working more closely 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.320 directly with him. And I bet his habits and his 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.399 needs had a strong impact on them. And I you know, 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:41.840 I know you raised this at the beginning, but I 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:46.080 think you're probably I think you're probably right. UM. I 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.080 don't mean to sound a surprise. I think you're probably 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.760 right that that that probably had an impact on the 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.080 on the culture here too. And it also reminds me, frankly, 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.040 and this is something I wonder about. I know, as 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:03.280 a manager it's important to model what you want your 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:07.000 staff to do. UM. And I try to. I stick 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.120 very firmly to when I leave every day, in part 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:15.640 because I have a small child, but I do work 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:18.760 in the evenings, and I have told my team explicitly, 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.800 you know, I have to work sometimes in the evenings. 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:24.600 I have a little bit of a shorter day because 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.199 I have to be able to do daycare, etcetera. UM, 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:29.040 if you need the accommodations of these kinds, you know, 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.080 I'm happy to work with you on them too. But 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.360 if you get an email from me at night, it's 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:35.359 just because I'm getting the work done. I do not 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:39.080 expect you to respond to it, um, but I wonder 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:43.200 about the impact of those emails on on them, and 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.399 so I've tried to say something similar about the mode 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.240 of communication. You know that if I send you a 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.480 text in the evening, so it's not actually texting, but 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.960 some kind of message in the evening, that's you know, 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.080 that's how I'll communicates in the urgent. But please don't 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.560 respond to or feel that I am asking you to 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:05.000 respond to email. But it's a complicated situation because I 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:06.800 do have to get that work done to get my 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.760 work done, and as the head of this office, that 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.960 just is my responsibility. But I don't want it to 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.840