Speaker 1: My colleagues, We'll stop commenting on everything I get my
Speaker 1: assist people and meeting. Why does my coworker keep taking
Speaker 1: credit for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi?
Speaker 1: I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager podcast, where
Speaker 1: I answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything
Speaker 1: from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers
Speaker 1: perfume to what to do if you drink too much
Speaker 1: at the company party. Let's get started. I hear from
Speaker 1: a lot of people who feel overworked, that they're expected
Speaker 1: to work unreasonable hours and their workload is just unmanageable.
Speaker 1: Today's guest is approaching this issue from the other side.
Speaker 1: She's a manager whose team seems to be working too much,
Speaker 1: and she's wondering how she can help them get it
Speaker 1: under control and work fewer hours. Hi, and welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. Hi, thanks for having me. So you wrote
Speaker 1: to me and you said you're a somewhat new manager
Speaker 1: at a nonprofit and you've found that the dominant culture
Speaker 1: on your team is why where people work all the time.
Speaker 1: Despite your attempts to help people manage their workloads, you're
Speaker 1: seeing people routinely working during vacations even when someone else
Speaker 1: has been assigned to take care of their email for them,
Speaker 1: and you see other people just never taking any time
Speaker 1: off at all. Is that basically the situation. That's pretty
Speaker 1: much it. And you mentioned that you're new to the job.
Speaker 1: When did you come on board? So now I've been
Speaker 1: here a year, I still feel new. Is the strange part.
Speaker 1: I think because my team as a team predates me,
Speaker 1: and our colleagues who work at our work site abroad
Speaker 1: all predate me by many years. And so I still
Speaker 1: I think feel like I've walked into a situation that
Speaker 1: exists outside of my control. That makes perfect sense, Okay,
Speaker 1: And in your email to me, you wrote, I'd like
Speaker 1: to help change the culture, but I can't figure out
Speaker 1: if I'm being ineffective, if I'm battling personalities that overwork
Speaker 1: feeds like workaholics, people pleaser and over committers, if they
Speaker 1: really are too overwork to define balance, or if I
Speaker 1: am somehow creating an environment that reinforces the tendency to
Speaker 1: overwork while paying lip service to wanting balance. I will
Speaker 1: add one more possibility to that list. It could be
Speaker 1: that the broader culture of your organization puts pressure on
Speaker 1: people to work crazy hours, or that the last manager
Speaker 1: on this team before you came in did, and so
Speaker 1: people don't really believe that they can and should shift gears.
Speaker 1: I think that's a big problem. Tell me a little
Speaker 1: bit about the broader culture of the organization beyond just
Speaker 1: your team. Are you seeing that kind of behavior on
Speaker 1: other teams as well? I am. So we're the only
Speaker 1: team in this country and everyone else is six hours
Speaker 1: ahead of us. Um, we're a small group, and the
Speaker 1: people abroad are a very big group, and they work
Speaker 1: all the time. They work at our work site with
Speaker 1: our clients, so and some of them live there, so
Speaker 1: they don't have a break. Um. I mean they get
Speaker 1: time off, but in the regular twenty for our cycle,
Speaker 1: they're working or in that space all the time. The
Speaker 1: other thing that I think we see is that because
Speaker 1: we're all very mission driven people and our mission feels urgent,
Speaker 1: there is this sense that if you can do something,
Speaker 1: you will do something because you care about the mission
Speaker 1: and you want to better the lives of our clients
Speaker 1: as much as you can. Um. In addition, I think
Speaker 1: the broader culture is also impacted by the time difference
Speaker 1: that because so many of our working hours don't overlap.
Speaker 1: There is kind of an impulse to want to be
Speaker 1: available when your colleagues are, so I think the thing
Speaker 1: that you're identifying about mission driven nonprofits is probably a
Speaker 1: huge part of this. I spent my whole career in nonprofits,
Speaker 1: and I know exactly what you're talking about. When you
Speaker 1: feel like you're doing very important, crucial, urgent work, it's
Speaker 1: hard to say, well, it's five o'clock, I'm going to
Speaker 1: stop working for today When you know that if you
Speaker 1: did put in more work, you could have a real
Speaker 1: impact on people's lives or on an issue that you
Speaker 1: care deeply about. It it's hard to work with other
Speaker 1: people would consider regular hours in that context, and especially
Speaker 1: I mean nonprofits fall prey to this all the time.
Speaker 1: It can very quickly become that that is the culture there,
Speaker 1: and people can start to feel like if they don't
Speaker 1: work those sorts of hours that they either are less
Speaker 1: committed or that look less committed, and they'll be judged
Speaker 1: for it. Whether or not they really would be judged
Speaker 1: for it. I mean, in many organizations they would be,
Speaker 1: but but I think there are also ones where they
Speaker 1: wouldn't be. But it's hard to know which one you're in. Yes,
Speaker 1: I agree with you, And I think that that's also
Speaker 1: the it's it becomes a way of of proving it
Speaker 1: to yourself, you know. And I think that's part of it,
Speaker 1: to the thing that we tell our yourselves about working
Speaker 1: in a nonprofit and being paid less. Because you work
Speaker 1: in a nonprofit, you make up for it and meaning,
Speaker 1: and so you want that meaning to be as big
Speaker 1: as it can be, you know. It drives itself somehow
Speaker 1: that way too. Yeah, And it really I think working
Speaker 1: on an important issue day in and day out can
Speaker 1: take over your life in some ways. Like it's really
Speaker 1: I don't know. I always found especially when I was
Speaker 1: working like I used to work for an animal protection
Speaker 1: charity where we were dealing with animal suffering and animal abuse,
Speaker 1: and that gets into your head and it stays there
Speaker 1: all the time. And it's that's a thing that it's
Speaker 1: hard to not think, I don't know, it's hard to
Speaker 1: get the balance right and and feel like you're fulfilling
Speaker 1: your moral obligations, even though if you had a regular job,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't question if you were fulfilling your moral obligations
Speaker 1: by going to work at a bank and then coming
Speaker 1: home at six o'clock. Yes, yeah, I think it's really
Speaker 1: it's difficult. You know, you get so much meaning from it,
Speaker 1: you get so much worth, um, and then you always
Speaker 1: know you can see the gaps, or you can see
Speaker 1: if I had done this better, we would have gotten
Speaker 1: this money, If I had done this better, the clients
Speaker 1: would have felt this. And those are those are tangible
Speaker 1: and they can haunt you in a way, and I
Speaker 1: think that drives it. Yes, absolutely well. Let me ask
Speaker 1: you this, do you have a sense from your own
Speaker 1: boss and from management of the organization above you in general?
Speaker 1: Is there room if you were able to get through
Speaker 1: to your team members and actually succeed in getting them
Speaker 1: to work more reasonable hours. Is there room for that
Speaker 1: for the organization to be okay with it, or is
Speaker 1: your sense that maybe that would make waves. That's a
Speaker 1: great question. Um. I think for some of my staff
Speaker 1: there could be room for that, you know. UM. I
Speaker 1: mentioned my letter that we recently grew our team and
Speaker 1: part of the reason we did that is that we
Speaker 1: had work that needed to be done, new work. And
Speaker 1: I said to my board essentially that our existing sort
Speaker 1: of person who gets everything dumped on them couldn't get
Speaker 1: anything else dumped on them and that if we were
Speaker 1: going to take on this project, we needed to hire
Speaker 1: for it. And they heard me and they hired for it,
Speaker 1: and so I was able to make space and get
Speaker 1: the organization to make space in that way. But I mean,
Speaker 1: I do think there are limits to that. Um. And
Speaker 1: you know, in sort of a dated day way, do
Speaker 1: I think that our colleagues overseas are going to stop
Speaker 1: having needs at five AMR time? No, Like, that's just
Speaker 1: the nature of the beast. Um. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if I could convince my staff that it's okay not
Speaker 1: to wake up at six am to check your phone
Speaker 1: when you don't need to be getting up until seven. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: the fact that they did respond with more staffing is
Speaker 1: a really good sign, because a lot of organizations wouldn't
Speaker 1: have So that's good. That indicates there's some degree of
Speaker 1: reasonable airness at least. But I'm sure you're right that
Speaker 1: there are limits to that. I mean, just that's like
Speaker 1: the financial reality for most organizations that there will be
Speaker 1: limits to that. UM. Let me ask you this. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're talking about people needing things at five am here time?
Speaker 1: Do they? I mean, is it urgent that they get
Speaker 1: a response, then what what would happen if they didn't?
Speaker 1: So this is something I think about a lot um.
Speaker 1: So sometimes they do need a response then, and sometimes
Speaker 1: they're writing it because they have the moment in their
Speaker 1: work day to write it. And we have to be
Speaker 1: able to triage right. We have to be able to
Speaker 1: say this is urgent and you need me to do
Speaker 1: this now, or I know something is urgent is going on,
Speaker 1: I'm going to make sure I check my phone at
Speaker 1: thirty before I go to bed, or wake up early
Speaker 1: to check my phone because of this specific time sensitive need.
Speaker 1: But most of the time it's not those things. And
Speaker 1: I think recognizing that is is really important. And I
Speaker 1: also kind of want to encourage a little bit of
Speaker 1: self reliance on the part of some of my colleagues
Speaker 1: overseas um that we don't always have the answer here,
Speaker 1: and if it's the middle of the night, unless it's
Speaker 1: a truly urgent matter, they shouldn't expect to get an
Speaker 1: answer from us. And that's not because I, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be available when they need me.
Speaker 1: It's more because I don't always know that it's a need,
Speaker 1: um that there's somehow been a culture of learning to
Speaker 1: rely on us for certain certain kinds of information as
Speaker 1: opposed to feeling secure in your knowledge base. Yourself were
Speaker 1: the fundraisers and they're the program people, but you know
Speaker 1: they know about both sides. That makes perfect sense. Let
Speaker 1: me ask you this, do you trust your colleagues overseas
Speaker 1: if you were to kind of explain to them, hey,
Speaker 1: we have people who aren't getting sleep because they're getting
Speaker 1: up at five am our time because they're worried it
Speaker 1: needs something. Would you trust them to hear that context
Speaker 1: and to say, well, let me actually back up and
Speaker 1: tell you what I'm thinking. I wonder in this case,
Speaker 1: if there is a way for you to have them
Speaker 1: channel urgent stuff differently, Like if there could be a
Speaker 1: particular phone number or a particular email address that is
Speaker 1: for middle of the night urgent stuff. And I wonder
Speaker 1: if you would trust them to have the right judgment
Speaker 1: to decide what needs to go there and what doesn't.
Speaker 1: Because if you could trust them to do that, you
Speaker 1: could set up a channel that is just for truly
Speaker 1: urgent stuff. And you could even have that set to
Speaker 1: like a wake someone up if it needed to, or
Speaker 1: you could have like one person who was charged with
Speaker 1: checking it for everyone who may be agreed to work
Speaker 1: a different those hours, like a different sort of shift almost.
Speaker 1: But to make that work, you would have to trust
Speaker 1: that your overseas colleagues would use it appropriately. So I
Speaker 1: think this is a really great question. Um. What I
Speaker 1: think I would love to do, just listening to what
Speaker 1: you're saying, is to say, essentially, when it's urgent, what's
Speaker 1: app me, and I'll make sure my what's up notifications
Speaker 1: are always on. The qualm I would have about doing
Speaker 1: that is that my boss is one of our overseas colleagues.
Speaker 1: Our executive director is based overseas, and while he doesn't
Speaker 1: think I should do what he does, he only sleeps
Speaker 1: a handful of hours per night, And so I'm even
Speaker 1: hesitant to say to him, you know, what, do you
Speaker 1: mind not emailing me from these hours to these hours?
Speaker 1: Because I want to sleep to sleep, But when I
Speaker 1: know he doesn't, when I know he works himself way
Speaker 1: too hard, and he doesn't want me to do to
Speaker 1: myself what he does to himself. But you know, I
Speaker 1: understand how overwork happens, right. I see the tendencies in
Speaker 1: myself to not want to make waves there too. Let's
Speaker 1: pass here for a quick break and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1: I mean, it might be that you actually need someone
Speaker 1: on your staff who works a weird schedule who can
Speaker 1: handle those nighttime things. I don't know enough about the
Speaker 1: context to know, but I don't want the solution to
Speaker 1: be that we just move the whole burden over to you.
Speaker 1: But I do think there's probably something there that if
Speaker 1: you just have a specific emergency channel and people know
Speaker 1: to use that, then they can go on emailing you
Speaker 1: just like normal. But then then the other piece of
Speaker 1: this is that you have to convince your staff to
Speaker 1: stop waking up at five am to check their email.
Speaker 1: But part of that will be that they know that
Speaker 1: emergencies are getting handled through this other channel. Right, No,
Speaker 1: I think you're I think you're definitely onto something there
Speaker 1: that if we said, you know, WhatsApp is going to
Speaker 1: be our emergency content means of contact, that we would
Speaker 1: turn our notifiers off on our email or turn the
Speaker 1: ding off on our email and and trusted after a
Speaker 1: period of time. And I do think some of my
Speaker 1: staff would respond to that and would trust it. You know,
Speaker 1: I had one of my new staff was getting emails
Speaker 1: on the weekend and was it was really nice. Was
Speaker 1: new enough to this world that she said to me,
Speaker 1: what do you want me to do when I get
Speaker 1: emails from this person on the weekend? And I said,
Speaker 1: don't respond to them until Monday. She said, okay, So
Speaker 1: you know, she trusted that. I think some of my
Speaker 1: older staff, my existing team from when I came in,
Speaker 1: would I would have a little more trouble trusting the limitations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it takes seeing it working for people to
Speaker 1: begin trusting it. So it might mean that you have
Speaker 1: to do a lot of coaching and reinforcing on the
Speaker 1: system for the first few weeks, and also that you
Speaker 1: have to really talk explicitly to people about why this
Speaker 1: is okay. And also don't assume they'll just believe you.
Speaker 1: They might be thinking, like you say, it's okay, but
Speaker 1: I can think of all these times that it wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been okay, And so it might really help to
Speaker 1: walk through a bunch of concrete situations, like to say
Speaker 1: to them, think back to the last three months, what
Speaker 1: sorts of things came up that would have been a
Speaker 1: problem if we were handling our workflow this way, and
Speaker 1: then talk those through and if you can talk those
Speaker 1: concrete worries through with them and say, okay, well, in
Speaker 1: that situation, here's how we would handle that. Now, that
Speaker 1: might be really key in putting some of their fears
Speaker 1: to rest. I think that's a great idea. And I
Speaker 1: think that also might be how I try to handle
Speaker 1: the checking email on vacation behavior, you know, which, Look,
Speaker 1: if person wants to check in their email once a
Speaker 1: day on vacation, I'm not really going to fight that.
Speaker 1: That's in some ways their decision. Um. But I've had
Speaker 1: more sort of egregious problems with that where I had
Speaker 1: a staff member who has gone for a few weeks
Speaker 1: on kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity, and
Speaker 1: I was checking that staff member's email while they were gone,
Speaker 1: and this was the agreed upon response. And I was
Speaker 1: in the mailbox and I saw emails moving around around
Speaker 1: me and going red and unread, and I knew they
Speaker 1: were in there. Um. And on the one hand, I thought,
Speaker 1: you have a really special opportunity. I really wish as
Speaker 1: a person in your life that you would have this
Speaker 1: opportunity to enjoy it. But also, I'm spending my work
Speaker 1: time trying to do some of your work and you
Speaker 1: doing it as well is not actually a good use
Speaker 1: of anybody's time. Yeah. Did you ever have any version
Speaker 1: of that conversation with them when they got back? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So when they got back, I focused more on the
Speaker 1: first one. I was very new at this point. I've
Speaker 1: been the manager six weeks, um, and I really focused
Speaker 1: on the you know, this is not I'm hoping to
Speaker 1: build some kind of work life balance in here. And
Speaker 1: it's really important to me that when you're gone, you
Speaker 1: have the ability to be gone. And it's important for
Speaker 1: all these reasons, including burnout and including your mental health
Speaker 1: and the fact that you know you're a very valued
Speaker 1: staff member and I want to keep you as long
Speaker 1: as I can, and I can't do that if you
Speaker 1: know you're going to end up feeling burnt out or
Speaker 1: overburdened by work. But I think the second part about
Speaker 1: staff time didn't really occur to me until I've been
Speaker 1: working with them longer and realized that there was some
Speaker 1: duplication of efforts there. Um and I have I haven't
Speaker 1: had that conversation now that I think about it, And
Speaker 1: that might be a a better avenue because it doesn't
Speaker 1: appeal to their personhood, right, It appeals to their worker identity,
Speaker 1: which is so strong anyway, I think that is worth saying.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't go back. And if this happened
Speaker 1: a year ago, obviously you don't want to, but like
Speaker 1: if it happens, to bring it up again. But if
Speaker 1: it happens again, definitely. And also you could say it preemptively.
Speaker 1: If someone is going on vacation and you know that
Speaker 1: they're likely to have that tendency, you could say, I
Speaker 1: know that you're really dedicated and you might be tempted
Speaker 1: to do this. Here is a reason that I'm asking
Speaker 1: you not to, so it might be interesting to say
Speaker 1: that ahead of time. The other thing you can do
Speaker 1: is is maybe it's funny. I always tell people to
Speaker 1: take this approach when they're talking to their manager. When
Speaker 1: they want something from their manager and their word the
Speaker 1: manager won't agree. I always say, ask for a limited
Speaker 1: time experiment, because that's easier to get a yes too.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a version of that that could
Speaker 1: work for you here too, which is that I think
Speaker 1: you might have better luck if you say to someone
Speaker 1: who's about to go on vacation, who you know as
Speaker 1: a workaholic, you could say you could talk about all
Speaker 1: the reasons why this is important, and then you could say, um,
Speaker 1: I know this might not be like a permanent change
Speaker 1: that you want to make. I want to ask if
Speaker 1: we can do it as an experiment this time, because
Speaker 1: I think we can find a way to make it work.
Speaker 1: Will you agree to see this trip as an experiment
Speaker 1: and then we can see how it goes when you're back.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good idea. I could definitely do that.
Speaker 1: It's so much easier for people to commit to that
Speaker 1: than to commit to what might feel like a really
Speaker 1: fundamental change in the way that they relate to work.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, that's true. I want to go back to
Speaker 1: something you said earlier about your boss never sleeping, because
Speaker 1: I can understand why that would would unsettle you a bit.
Speaker 1: And even if your boss has been very explicit about
Speaker 1: not expecting that of you, I mean, our bosses model
Speaker 1: stuff for us, and that's hard. Um My strong suspicion
Speaker 1: is that if you have seen evidence in other ways
Speaker 1: that your boss is a reasonable person, that they probably
Speaker 1: do not, in fact expect you to only sleep three
Speaker 1: hours and night too. But I think if you're ever
Speaker 1: feeling weird about it. You could tackle that head on.
Speaker 1: I mean, you could say, you know, I've been thinking
Speaker 1: about these workload issues on my team. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: find ways to make sure that people are actually coming
Speaker 1: to work well arrested, because I want them not burning
Speaker 1: out and I want to be able to retain people
Speaker 1: in the long term and have them doing their best work.
Speaker 1: I mean, you might not even need to explain all
Speaker 1: that it might be. It might be obvious, but if
Speaker 1: you feel like in your culture you need to explain
Speaker 1: it and do um and then you could say, you know,
Speaker 1: it hasn't escaped my notice that you sleep hardly at all,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it can. I worry that it will make
Speaker 1: me or other people on our team feel like they
Speaker 1: don't really have standing to say, Hey, I really need
Speaker 1: a full night's sleep, and I just want to check
Speaker 1: that with you and make sure that I'm being crazy
Speaker 1: in thinking this, and I suspect you will get reassurance.
Speaker 1: I suspect so as well. And I I hadn't thought
Speaker 1: until you said that about the impact that his schedule
Speaker 1: and his habits probably have on my team, even though
Speaker 1: they're insulated both by distance and now by me. Because
Speaker 1: for a long time in the absence of my predecessor,
Speaker 1: they were not reporting to him, but working more closely
Speaker 1: directly with him. And I bet his habits and his
Speaker 1: needs had a strong impact on them. And I you know,
Speaker 1: I know you raised this at the beginning, but I
Speaker 1: think you're probably I think you're probably right. UM. I
Speaker 1: don't mean to sound a surprise. I think you're probably
Speaker 1: right that that that probably had an impact on the
Speaker 1: on the culture here too. And it also reminds me, frankly,
Speaker 1: and this is something I wonder about. I know, as
Speaker 1: a manager it's important to model what you want your
Speaker 1: staff to do. UM. And I try to. I stick
Speaker 1: very firmly to when I leave every day, in part
Speaker 1: because I have a small child, but I do work
Speaker 1: in the evenings, and I have told my team explicitly,
Speaker 1: you know, I have to work sometimes in the evenings.
Speaker 1: I have a little bit of a shorter day because
Speaker 1: I have to be able to do daycare, etcetera. UM,
Speaker 1: if you need the accommodations of these kinds, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to work with you on them too. But
Speaker 1: if you get an email from me at night, it's
Speaker 1: just because I'm getting the work done. I do not
Speaker 1: expect you to respond to it, um, but I wonder
Speaker 1: about the impact of those emails on on them, and
Speaker 1: so I've tried to say something similar about the mode
Speaker 1: of communication. You know that if I send you a
Speaker 1: text in the evening, so it's not actually texting, but
Speaker 1: some kind of message in the evening, that's you know,
Speaker 1: that's how I'll communicates in the urgent. But please don't
Speaker 1: respond to or feel that I am asking you to
Speaker 1: respond to email. But it's a complicated situation because I
Speaker 1: do have to get that work done to get my
Speaker 1: work done, and as the head of this office, that
Speaker 1: just is my responsibility. But I don't want it to
Speaker 1: trickle down to my team. And as we're when we're
Speaker 1: in busy periods of time and I am working, you know,
Speaker 1: a number of nights during the week, I worry about
Speaker 1: that impact. I used to send emails to my staff
Speaker 1: really late at night, like two or three am, because
Speaker 1: I am just like a weird night owl and I
Speaker 1: am just highly productive at strange hours. And it took
Speaker 1: me a long time to realize that I was freaking
Speaker 1: people out because we're getting work emails from me at
Speaker 1: two I am, and I I did two things. I
Speaker 1: started being much more explicit with people, um about just
Speaker 1: as you have that I'm just up and working then
Speaker 1: because it's my choice, but I'm certainly not expecting anyone
Speaker 1: to respond before they get into the office the next morning.
Speaker 1: But also I had to start saving them as drafts
Speaker 1: and sending them the next morning. Um yeah, because some
Speaker 1: people just never believe it. I think, regardless of what
Speaker 1: you say, um So, I mean there might be some
Speaker 1: work around like that. Sometimes it doesn't make sense for
Speaker 1: the work, especially if you're working with people in lots
Speaker 1: of different times and you might not be able to
Speaker 1: wait to send the email and you might need to
Speaker 1: send it. Then I think probably for you, it's going
Speaker 1: to be just a lot of explicit talking to people
Speaker 1: and reminding them. And if you are really reinforcing, you know,
Speaker 1: if it's one conversation, they might think you okay maybe
Speaker 1: and then promptly forget about it. But if you're reinforcing it,
Speaker 1: if you're talking about it in an ongoing basis, I
Speaker 1: mean not every day, that's going to be weird, but
Speaker 1: but you know, on an ongoing basis and it's coming
Speaker 1: up and you're reminding people, I think it will start
Speaker 1: to feel more real. And the other thing I would
Speaker 1: say is I would lay all of this out for
Speaker 1: your team and talk to them about it and say like,
Speaker 1: here's what I'm seeing. These are the reasons that I
Speaker 1: know are in play. So you don't want to sound
Speaker 1: obviously like you're completely out of touch. You want to
Speaker 1: make it clear you do recognize that this is the
Speaker 1: culture and there are all of these pressures on them,
Speaker 1: but that your sense is still that even within that context,
Speaker 1: people are too connected to work when they don't need
Speaker 1: to be, and ask for their input about what might help,
Speaker 1: because there might be obstacles to solving this that you
Speaker 1: don't even realize, and hearing their perspective would probably be
Speaker 1: really helpful. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I
Speaker 1: don't know that I've done that enough lately, And and
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that has made me
Speaker 1: worry about it in coming into a sort of already
Speaker 1: existing structure and culture is that what if their jobs
Speaker 1: are just a lot harder than I realized and it's
Speaker 1: really taking them this amount of time, in which case
Speaker 1: are they going to tell me that, you know, are
Speaker 1: they going to be upfront about it? Are they going
Speaker 1: to end up feeling bad or inefficient about the way
Speaker 1: they're doing their work. There's a point at which I
Speaker 1: start to worry about looking like I don't know what
Speaker 1: their lives are like, and actually not knowing what their
Speaker 1: lives are like. We'll pause here for a quick word
Speaker 1: from a sponsor and then we'll come right back. When
Speaker 1: you see, people are working long hours, So what kind
Speaker 1: of hours are we talking about, Like in an average week,
Speaker 1: what do you think people are working? Um, I think
Speaker 1: so it's hard to me. It's hard for me to
Speaker 1: actually know because I do leave the office because I
Speaker 1: have to, so I don't always know when they leave.
Speaker 1: But I have, for example, a staff member who basically
Speaker 1: doesn't have internet at home. UM. It's just it's a
Speaker 1: very bad connection, and I will regularly get emails from
Speaker 1: him at seven thirty at night. UM. And I realized
Speaker 1: right that if you work in consulting, the day of
Speaker 1: seven thirty at night is joyous. But if you work
Speaker 1: for a nonprofit and you're making what you make at
Speaker 1: a nonprofit, and you're doing this regularly and also not
Speaker 1: taking any of your paid time off, this is a problem,
Speaker 1: or at least I feel like it's a problem. I
Speaker 1: have another staff member who I think starts working her
Speaker 1: work week on Sunday morning every weekend, and I'm getting
Speaker 1: emails from six am two thirty am off and on
Speaker 1: on the weekdays. Okay, yeah, I so yeah. I think
Speaker 1: one of the issues that you want to get a
Speaker 1: handle on here is is the workload forcing them into
Speaker 1: this and do they legitimately feel like if they pulled back,
Speaker 1: they would miss deadlines and important things would go undone.
Speaker 1: Because if that is the case, then the solution isn't
Speaker 1: just telling them, hey, workless, um. In that case, you
Speaker 1: would have to take a bigger picture, look at the
Speaker 1: workload and figure out do you need to cut projects,
Speaker 1: do you need to bring it more staff, do you
Speaker 1: need to backburner things? There would need to be some
Speaker 1: solution that's outside of their control, but hopefully is in
Speaker 1: your control. So it might be worth sitting down individually
Speaker 1: with people or at least the ones where, like definitely
Speaker 1: the person who seems to be working all day Sunday, UM,
Speaker 1: lose the ones where you think that the problem seems
Speaker 1: the most pronounced, and explain that you are concerned about
Speaker 1: how high the workload seems to be and that you
Speaker 1: want to get more nuanced understanding of exactly what's on
Speaker 1: their point so that you're better able to figure out solutions,
Speaker 1: and then maybe have them walk you through what's going
Speaker 1: on at a pretty nitty gritty level. So maybe like
Speaker 1: take ask them to walk you through what they're juggling
Speaker 1: this week and how long things are taking and why.
Speaker 1: When you do it, you want to be careful not
Speaker 1: to put people in the defense of like you don't
Speaker 1: want them to feel like you're questioning whether they're efficient
Speaker 1: enough or not, So you you need to be really
Speaker 1: explicit that you're seeking to understand, not looking for It's
Speaker 1: not like a gotcha, you're not looking for a problem
Speaker 1: with the way that they work. But if you get
Speaker 1: really into the weeds, I think you'll be better equipped
Speaker 1: to judge, oh, yes, this is just an insanely high workload,
Speaker 1: or maybe it's not. But you also might realize when
Speaker 1: you do that that there are some obvious places where
Speaker 1: you could cut back. Like to give you an example
Speaker 1: of what I mean, if you really dig into it,
Speaker 1: you might really lies someone is putting hours every week
Speaker 1: into something that actually doesn't need to be that high
Speaker 1: of a priority, or that they're putting hours into getting
Speaker 1: something perfect when they could put in twenty of the
Speaker 1: time and have it be good enough. But maybe they
Speaker 1: don't know that because it's never been discussed. Um or
Speaker 1: you might find there some kind of like system problem,
Speaker 1: like maybe someone can't move something forward until they get
Speaker 1: input from another team and that other team is constantly
Speaker 1: a roadblock, or or who knows. I mean, we can't
Speaker 1: predict it. But I think if you dig in with
Speaker 1: an eye toward thinking about whether things have to be
Speaker 1: done the way they're happening now, or whether there might
Speaker 1: be shortcuts that would be okay for people to take,
Speaker 1: or even whole projects that could be put on the
Speaker 1: back burner temporarily or forever, or or you might come
Speaker 1: away thinking, Okay, yeah, this is a really insanely high
Speaker 1: workload and there aren't any obvious easy ways to lighten
Speaker 1: anyone's burden here. But even that last thing, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the hardest one to handle. But that at least
Speaker 1: tells you the solution isn't that I just keep nudging
Speaker 1: people to work less. The solution has to be something
Speaker 1: in that you're working out with your management, right. I
Speaker 1: think if you do that, you'll come away with more
Speaker 1: information about what's going on. And also that's a good
Speaker 1: time to ask people for input too, And you might
Speaker 1: even ask them whether they can identify places where they
Speaker 1: or other people could be cutting back, because they might
Speaker 1: have opinions that they've kept to themselves about a program
Speaker 1: not having much impact or not being worth the energy
Speaker 1: that gets put into it, or a process being really
Speaker 1: onerous that maybe the old manager didn't want to change
Speaker 1: and so everyone's just kept doing it, or or who
Speaker 1: knows what. But I think having those conversations and explicitly
Speaker 1: asking for that can maybe draw some of that out.
Speaker 1: If there is anything like that, I think that's a
Speaker 1: great idea. If that's not something I had thought of about,
Speaker 1: you know, are there places they see that can be
Speaker 1: simplified or that aren't having impact? And I do think
Speaker 1: that just because of the particularities or a situation, it
Speaker 1: took them sort of many months to trust that when
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'm concerned about the amount you're working,
Speaker 1: it wasn't in any way having to do with their
Speaker 1: performance or that I wasn't sort of lowering them into
Speaker 1: a trap where I was going to yell at them. Um.
Speaker 1: But I think I've been here long enough now that
Speaker 1: they they feel a little more secure. Um, and so
Speaker 1: this might be a good time to have to start
Speaker 1: having those conversations. Yeah, I like that a lot. And
Speaker 1: I think also it might be there's so many things
Speaker 1: that could be at play here, and I think you're
Speaker 1: going to get to most of them if you do
Speaker 1: this kind of really digging into it. But another one
Speaker 1: could be and this is so common in nonprofits where
Speaker 1: there's like this ethos of if something seems like a
Speaker 1: worthy project, let's just find a way to fit it in.
Speaker 1: So you could have a team of horribly overworked people
Speaker 1: who aren't saying no to anything new that comes up
Speaker 1: because something their played is full. Something new comes up,
Speaker 1: it feels like it would be worthy and have a
Speaker 1: valuable impact, and so they just take it on without
Speaker 1: looking for, well, what are we going to cut to
Speaker 1: make room for this? Um. That happens in every sector,
Speaker 1: but oh my god, it happens in non off it
Speaker 1: so much so you might need to do some work
Speaker 1: on resetting your team's culture in that regard and training
Speaker 1: people that when they or your team as a whole
Speaker 1: is taking on something new. You talk about where the
Speaker 1: time for it is going to come from that. The
Speaker 1: assumption isn't just oh, you'll pile this on top of
Speaker 1: the already overwhelming pile that you already have. That you'll
Speaker 1: talk about what to cut or what to push back
Speaker 1: to make room for it. And that is something that
Speaker 1: very much has to come from you. They're gonna have
Speaker 1: to see you asking that question every time and then
Speaker 1: backing it up by actually helping them cut things so
Speaker 1: that they know that you really mean it and it's
Speaker 1: not just lip service. Yes, I I agree so much.
Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking about the once or twice where
Speaker 1: I've had someone say to me when of my teams say,
Speaker 1: can you help me figure out how to prioritize this?
Speaker 1: And I see that as this window into I don't
Speaker 1: know how I'm going to get this done? How do
Speaker 1: you want to get this done? Like? What do you
Speaker 1: want me to not do? So I do this? Which
Speaker 1: I think is great right that someone's coming and saying
Speaker 1: that to me, But I think I probably do need
Speaker 1: to give that opening a lot more um And I
Speaker 1: think that was at least the beauty of having this
Speaker 1: new staff members start who was able to take projects
Speaker 1: off of our let's say are most burdened, do you remember. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I might even start, just like make a little
Speaker 1: note for yourself that every time something new comes up
Speaker 1: that someone is taking on, maybe for the next few months,
Speaker 1: say to them, what do we need to cut to
Speaker 1: make room for this? Or what do we need to
Speaker 1: push back to make room for this? Because they might
Speaker 1: not even give you the opening on their own, because
Speaker 1: they might not even be thinking that that is a possibility. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's true. I think the the expectation and
Speaker 1: just the feeling around here, especially because how mission driven
Speaker 1: we are, is if this is the thing we need
Speaker 1: to do to make possible what we need to make
Speaker 1: possible for the clients, then we'll find a way to
Speaker 1: do it. And I know that I'm not always as
Speaker 1: good as I could be about modeling that in my
Speaker 1: own workload. I mean, I think I do it a
Speaker 1: good deal all the time, but I think for my
Speaker 1: own insecurities or whatever reason, I don't do it all
Speaker 1: the time that I should um to my bosster, to
Speaker 1: my board, and so giving them explicitly the opportunity is
Speaker 1: going to be important. Yeah, And I think to you,
Speaker 1: I mean, we all sort of inadvertently fall into this
Speaker 1: thing where we assume that if someone is asking us
Speaker 1: to do something, they must expect us to make the time,
Speaker 1: and they must know all the other things that are
Speaker 1: on there our plate, and if they're putting this on
Speaker 1: there too, we're just expected to handle all of it.
Speaker 1: But so often we train people to think that because
Speaker 1: we don't speak up right, right, I agree? Is it
Speaker 1: helpful to talk about, like, if you do take a
Speaker 1: look at this and you realize it's just an insanely
Speaker 1: crushing workload and there isn't a lot that people can
Speaker 1: do about it, Is it helpful to talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about what to do if that is what you realize. Yes,
Speaker 1: because I think that might be the case, and in
Speaker 1: at least one situation. Okay, so if you do what
Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, you sit down with people,
Speaker 1: you have them really walk you through like this week
Speaker 1: or this month, and you try to really get a
Speaker 1: feel for how much time does stuff take, and you
Speaker 1: take out all the stuff where you realize, oh, here's
Speaker 1: an inefficient and an inefficiency we could cut this out,
Speaker 1: and then you're left with still this whole pile of work.
Speaker 1: So I think ideally you would do that for everyone
Speaker 1: on your team or close to everyone on your team,
Speaker 1: so that you have this whole long list of all
Speaker 1: the stuff that has to be done and roughly how
Speaker 1: much time stuff takes. And then so I would take
Speaker 1: that information and then I would write out a reasonable
Speaker 1: work allocation for each people, So taking all the stuff
Speaker 1: from that long, that big pile of work and assigning
Speaker 1: to each person in order of how important things are
Speaker 1: each of those items, and then stop when each person
Speaker 1: has a list that represents a full workload. So maybe
Speaker 1: for you guys, it's not forty hours a week. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's forty five, maybe it's fifty. I don't know what
Speaker 1: number it is that you want to get to, but
Speaker 1: it's probably less than what it is now, whatever that
Speaker 1: number is, stop your list when each per since is full,
Speaker 1: and then see what is left over. And if you
Speaker 1: have a bunch of stuff left over that did not
Speaker 1: fit at anyone's plate, and I suspect that you will,
Speaker 1: then there is your list of the stuff that your
Speaker 1: team doesn't actually have time to do but is cramming
Speaker 1: in anyway, and and there's your problem. So at that point,
Speaker 1: you could reshuffle some of the things on that list.
Speaker 1: You could take some things off and put some things on.
Speaker 1: You could decide that some are going to come off
Speaker 1: the list altogether. But at some point you might need
Speaker 1: and I suspect you will find that you're probably at
Speaker 1: this point you would need to bring your own boss
Speaker 1: into the conversation. Like if you were contemplating cutting things entirely,
Speaker 1: or if you're realizing, Okay, if we're going to do
Speaker 1: all this, we need more people to get it done,
Speaker 1: that's the point where you'd bring your own Boston. But
Speaker 1: but when you did that, you would have this very
Speaker 1: stark written illustration of what the problem was. So it
Speaker 1: wouldn't just be this amorphous like, oh, people feel overworked.
Speaker 1: It would be here's what people can get done in
Speaker 1: forty five hours a week, and here's all the stuff
Speaker 1: that is still happening on top of that. I think
Speaker 1: that's incredibly helpful. Good it. Well, So do you feel
Speaker 1: like you have some next steps to try to tackle this?
Speaker 1: I do. I feel like I have a couple of
Speaker 1: great next steps. Thanks for talking that through with me.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on the show. It
Speaker 1: was great to be here. This was a really helpful conversation.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the asking manager podcast. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to come on the show to talk through your
Speaker 1: own question, email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org.
Speaker 1: Or you can leave a recording of your question by
Speaker 1: calling eight five five four T six work. That's eight
Speaker 1: five five f T six nine seven five. You can
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Speaker 1: navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses, and the rest of
Speaker 1: your life at work. The Ask a Manager shows a
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Speaker 1: Spotify or Google Play. I'm Alison Green and I'll be
Speaker 1: back next week with another one of your questions. M H.