WEBVTT - Ep. 28: Understanding Nature in a Southwestern State

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<v Speaker 1>Where the Rocky Mountains, the Great Plains, the Colorado Plateau,

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<v Speaker 1>and the southwestern deserts converged to create New Mexico. There

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<v Speaker 1>is more ecological variety than in any interior Western state.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Dan Flores, and this is the American.

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<v Speaker 1>West, understanding nature in a southwestern state. In the first

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen years of the two thousands, I spent part of

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<v Speaker 1>my time in Montana, part in New Mexico. That experience

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<v Speaker 1>drove home a fact of modern Western life I'd never considered, namely,

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<v Speaker 1>how little inhabitants of any part of the West often

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<v Speaker 1>know about the rest of their region. And a West

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<v Speaker 1>settled relatively recently by Americans who came here from other places.

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<v Speaker 1>I know this has something to do with the Western

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<v Speaker 1>settlement patterns geographers have long studied. One of their insights

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<v Speaker 1>is that as the West was settled in the nineteenth

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<v Speaker 1>and twentieth centuries, settlers almost always moved west along the

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<v Speaker 1>same latitude lines where they had started. Texas and the

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<v Speaker 1>Southwest were largely settled by people moving westward from the South.

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<v Speaker 1>Colorado and Utah got peopled by Midwesterners from Missouri and Illinois,

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<v Speaker 1>and the northern West. The Dakotas across Montana on to

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<v Speaker 1>Oregon and Washington by people who started out in New

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<v Speaker 1>England or around the Great Lakes. When the dust Bowl

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<v Speaker 1>of the nineteen thirties launched millions of Oklahomas and Kansas

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<v Speaker 1>on their migration west, their primary destination, naturally enough, southern California.

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<v Speaker 1>Understanding the wider West obviously involves travel. It's a big place,

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<v Speaker 1>but even tourists travel often follows those same latitude lines. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>when Minnesota's travel west, they commonly go to Glacier National Park,

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<v Speaker 1>are onto Washington State. Chicagoans travel to Yellowstone. Texans go

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<v Speaker 1>to Santa Fe or Grand Canyon National Park, or they

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<v Speaker 1>golf in Arizona. Obviously, the snowbird phenomenon has changed at

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<v Speaker 1>migration patterns, some bringing Midwesterners south to states like Arizona

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<v Speaker 1>for the winters. But I think those classic latitudinal patterns

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<v Speaker 1>explain at least some of the strange lack of familiarity

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<v Speaker 1>with other parts of the West. I found among both

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<v Speaker 1>Southwesterners and residents of the Northern Rockies during my time

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<v Speaker 1>in those two places.

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<v Speaker 2>Told that I live.

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<v Speaker 1>Part of the year outside Missoula, Montana. For example, West

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<v Speaker 1>Texans and even New Mexicans were incredulous. How do you

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<v Speaker 1>stand living all winter at forty below zero? For Montanas?

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<v Speaker 1>That worked in perfect reverse. You go to Santa Fe

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<v Speaker 1>for the summers, how can you stand that one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and twenty five degree heat. I never developed a good

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<v Speaker 1>comeback about Montana, except to observe lamely that other Montanas

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<v Speaker 1>often called Missoula and the Bitterroot Valley the Banana Belt.

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<v Speaker 1>Over time, I did work out a fair one about

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<v Speaker 1>Santa Fe. Though, so Denver is the mile high city

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<v Speaker 1>and it snows there, right Santa Fe sits even closer

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<v Speaker 1>to the rocky mountains than Denver does, and it's a

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<v Speaker 1>half mile higher up.

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<v Speaker 2>You figure it out.

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<v Speaker 1>The looks I got were still and comprehending, though like

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<v Speaker 1>I was arguing that the Sahara wasn't a desert. The

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<v Speaker 1>Southwest struck me then and still does as the part

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<v Speaker 1>of the West that seems most alien to Americans from elsewhere,

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<v Speaker 1>even other Westerners with reputations for their green forested mountains

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<v Speaker 1>and ski weather winter snows. Interior West states like Colorado

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<v Speaker 1>and Utah, Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho seem easy places to

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<v Speaker 1>picture in the mine for most Americans living outside the West,

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<v Speaker 1>but the Southwest, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada presents a different

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<v Speaker 1>world to the national consciousness. The irresistible proclivity for national

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<v Speaker 1>sports announcers to label any sporting event taking place in

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<v Speaker 1>Arizona as being played down in the desert conveys to

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<v Speaker 1>me at least a continuing national cinema that the imagined

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<v Speaker 1>Southwest still falls outside the American norm. So let me

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<v Speaker 1>take a stab at familiarizing the American West's audience with

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<v Speaker 1>the part of the Southwest I know best the state

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<v Speaker 1>of New Mexico and the story I've studied there, which

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<v Speaker 1>is the discovery of the state's wildlife ecology.

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<v Speaker 2>If you struggle to exactly place.

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<v Speaker 1>It, New Mexico is that slice of the West situated

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<v Speaker 1>directly below mountainous Colorado. It's the western state sandwich between

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<v Speaker 1>the flatlands of Texas and the arid Colorado Plateau and

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<v Speaker 1>Suaro deserts of Arizona. The Rocky Mountains extend down into

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<v Speaker 1>New Mexico, and so do the slick rock canyons of

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<v Speaker 1>the Colorado Plateau.

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<v Speaker 2>The whole eastern.

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<v Speaker 1>Third of New Mexico, though lies in the Great plains,

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<v Speaker 1>and the entire southwestern quadrant of it is true desert,

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<v Speaker 1>although a different desert the Chihuahuan than the ones found

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<v Speaker 1>in either Arizona or Nevada, and New Mexico happens to

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<v Speaker 1>be the part of the West with the oldest continuous

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<v Speaker 1>human history In Santa Fe, founded in sixteen ten, it

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<v Speaker 1>has the oldest European town anywhere in the West. Turns out,

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<v Speaker 1>it's an easy thing to pick out the human beginnings

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<v Speaker 1>of understanding nature in New Mexico. A great many millennia

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<v Speaker 1>before today's White Sands National Monument down in the southern

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<v Speaker 1>part of the state ever existed, a young woman who

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes carried a child on her hip, walked barefoot along

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<v Speaker 1>a muddy lake shore among the white sand dunes, and

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<v Speaker 1>encountered a giant ground sloth, which reared back in alarm.

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<v Speaker 1>We know this because the footprints from that ancient close encounter,

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<v Speaker 1>excavated by a park service employee in twenty nineteen, had

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<v Speaker 1>crushed grass seeds below them that radiocarbon dated to twenty

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<v Speaker 1>three thousand years ago. That date is prior to the

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<v Speaker 1>glacial maximum of the Wisconsin Ice Age, and it's the

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<v Speaker 1>oldest evidence for humans anywhere in North America. The human

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<v Speaker 1>and sloth prints weren't the extent of it either. Mammoths

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<v Speaker 1>and dire wolves also crossed the tracks this young woman left.

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<v Speaker 1>Ten thousand years after that, the hunting culture we've named

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<v Speaker 1>Clovis left their spear points in the remains of multiple

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<v Speaker 1>now to us vanished mammoths near what would become one

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<v Speaker 1>day New Mexico's High Plains town carrying the Clovis name.

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<v Speaker 1>There's believable evidence that the Clovis people had a significant

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<v Speaker 1>effect on the Africa like wildlife that covered the West

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<v Speaker 1>down to about ten thousand years ago, much of which

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<v Speaker 1>went extinct by that time. In contrast to these Paleolithic hunters, however,

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<v Speaker 1>subsequent native peoples in New Mexico affected a wildlife management

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<v Speaker 1>of the area that preserved its biological divers for ten

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<v Speaker 1>millennia down to the arrival of Old worlders. When Spaniards

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<v Speaker 1>and Americans did arrive, travelers like Francisco Coronado, Albert Pike,

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<v Speaker 1>George Ruxton, and Josiah Gregg, and especially William Emery of

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<v Speaker 1>the Mexican Boundary Survey left us accounts of New Mexico

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<v Speaker 1>when its mountains brimmed with flocks of big horned sheep

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<v Speaker 1>and beaver down pools, and its planes were a kind

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<v Speaker 1>of American version of the Serengetti or Massai Mara, with grizzlies,

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<v Speaker 1>wolf packs, spotted jaguars, and jackal like coyotes trailing vast

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<v Speaker 1>herds of bison, elk, and pronghorns. During New Mexico's brief

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<v Speaker 1>time as part of the Republic of Mexico, New Mexicans

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<v Speaker 1>even tried to halt the eradication of its beavers by

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<v Speaker 1>American fur traders. The first real chance for the scientific

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<v Speaker 1>study of the mammals, birds, and reptiles in New Mexico

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<v Speaker 1>and the Southwest came after the Mexican War, when the

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<v Speaker 1>far Southwest became part of the United States. There were

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<v Speaker 1>several expeditions led by explorers called the Army Corps of

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<v Speaker 1>Topographical Engineers, and there were also parties surveying routes for

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<v Speaker 1>a railroad line.

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<v Speaker 2>To the Pacific Coast.

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<v Speaker 1>Some of the topographical engineers like John Charles Fremont, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>who became such a celebrity that in eighteen fifty six

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<v Speaker 1>he got the New Republican Party's nomination to be its

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<v Speaker 1>first presidential candidate became cultural stars in America from these expeditions,

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<v Speaker 1>but as is the fate of most scientists, history has

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<v Speaker 1>forgotten most of the naturalists who wrote about America's animals

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<v Speaker 1>when they were novel to discovery. The most notable of

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<v Speaker 1>these many expeditions was the Mexican Boundary Survey, which laid

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<v Speaker 1>out a new un boundary. After the treaty ending the

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<v Speaker 1>war forced Mexico to seede its northern territories.

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<v Speaker 2>To the United States.

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<v Speaker 1>Exploring that line fell to William Emery, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>founders of the American Association for the Advancement of Science,

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<v Speaker 1>with a young New Yorker named Spencer Baird as his assistant.

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<v Speaker 1>Soon to be a nationalist of legendary proportion, Baird, as

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<v Speaker 1>a teen had wanted to go west with Autubon, but

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<v Speaker 1>his parents had demurred because of the dangers. Emory was

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<v Speaker 1>himself an excellent field nationalist to send to the Southwest

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<v Speaker 1>during the war. He accompanied the American Armies push from

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<v Speaker 1>New Mexico to California, and had already added several species

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<v Speaker 1>of desert cacti to science, including giant souaros, along with

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<v Speaker 1>visiting ruins like Shacko, whose antiquity he suspected went back

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<v Speaker 1>into America's deep past.

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<v Speaker 2>But this was the eighteen fifties.

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<v Speaker 1>Red Whiskered Emory was also a Maryland slaveholder whose closest

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<v Speaker 1>boyhood friend was Jefferson Davis, soon to be President of

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<v Speaker 1>the Confederacy. So when he got west this time, his

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<v Speaker 1>time and background led him to an odd lack of

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<v Speaker 1>appreciation about how Spanish settlers and local Indians had interacted

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<v Speaker 1>with Western wildlife. That wild animals were still abundant around

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<v Speaker 1>towns in the Southwest appeared certain proof to Emory of

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<v Speaker 1>Hispanic what he called indolence and incapacity evidently has said

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<v Speaker 1>something laudatory that back home Americans would never suffer animals

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<v Speaker 1>within reach to survive like that. A half century after

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<v Speaker 1>Jefferson had aimed his second major expiration at the Southwest,

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<v Speaker 1>Emory's survey from Texas to California at last got to

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<v Speaker 1>illuminate the animals and birds of the western deserts. This

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<v Speaker 1>was an exotic part of North America, with a mix

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<v Speaker 1>of familiar creatures in combination with several Central American species

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<v Speaker 1>at the northern limits of their ranges. White tailed deer

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<v Speaker 1>inhabited the southwest in vast numbers, and the mule deer

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<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark had found also ranged widely across this region.

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<v Speaker 1>Beavers yet dammed up the streams and shy and comparatively

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<v Speaker 1>rare desert. Big horn sheet looked down from the canyon rims.

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<v Speaker 1>Prairie dogs and pronghorns populated the flats, and coyotes Emory

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<v Speaker 1>had already borrowed the Southwestern name for them, became camp followers,

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<v Speaker 1>stealing food and snatching gear. Grizzlies were present, but Emory

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't decide if those in the interior were the same

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<v Speaker 1>as the bears on the coast, which were much larger.

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<v Speaker 2>There were two.

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<v Speaker 1>Different wolves, the red Texan wolf eastward and farther west,

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<v Speaker 1>a gray wolf. This this was a new animal, the

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<v Speaker 1>Mexican wolf, but scientists wouldn't recognize that for another fifty years.

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<v Speaker 1>The unfamiliar creatures were especially intriguing. Particularly impressive and numerous

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<v Speaker 1>were the big cats. As Bear described it. A vast

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<v Speaker 1>number of pumas and jaguars were preying on wildlife and

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<v Speaker 1>on the immense herds of wild horses and wild cattle,

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<v Speaker 1>known to Spanish settlers as l tigre and to most

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<v Speaker 1>Americans as.

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<v Speaker 2>Tigers or leopards.

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<v Speaker 1>Jaguars hunted the jungles of the Americas as far south

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<v Speaker 1>as Argentina, but their northern range clearly extended into open

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<v Speaker 1>country in North America. Francisco Carnado's early fifteen forties expiration

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<v Speaker 1>into the Southwest had mentioned leopards, and mountain man Rufus

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<v Speaker 1>Sage claimed to have seen such an animal on the

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<v Speaker 1>headwaters of the North Platte in today's Colorado, Jaguars apparently

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<v Speaker 1>were common predators of deer and wild horses, and comanches

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<v Speaker 1>and other tribes even used jaguar hides decoratively. In Emory's report,

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<v Speaker 1>jaguars were on the outskirts of Santa Fe at some point.

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<v Speaker 2>As he worked on his.

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<v Speaker 1>Survey, he discovered a literary source describing a frightening morning

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<v Speaker 1>in eighteen twenty five in what he assumed was New

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<v Speaker 1>Mexico's capital. A massive flood in the nearby Rio Bravo,

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<v Speaker 1>the name for the real Grand for many people had

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<v Speaker 1>driven out wildlife, and on opening the church, a lay

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<v Speaker 1>brother found himself face to face with a jaguar of

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<v Speaker 1>very extraordinary size. The big cat killed four clerics before

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<v Speaker 1>survivors drilled a hole through a church door large enough

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<v Speaker 1>for a rifle barrel. Jaguars would turn up in the

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<v Speaker 1>Southern Rockies for decades to come, no question, so their

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<v Speaker 1>presence in the area was not a miss, but the

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<v Speaker 1>story Emory included actually referred to an incident in Santa Fe, Argentina,

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<v Speaker 1>on the Rio Parana Bravo. Other creatures reflected a different

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<v Speaker 1>West than Montana or even California. Emery's people saw swine

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<v Speaker 1>like collared peckreas the southwestern Desert's native Halinas, another creature

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<v Speaker 1>of the southern latitudes. At the northern limits of its range,

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<v Speaker 1>they collected a bizarrely armored South American immigrant called the armadillo,

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<v Speaker 1>exclusive to the Americas and distantly related to anteaters and

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<v Speaker 1>ground slaws. They reported a remarkable variety of reptiles, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>snakes and lizards, of which the most impressive were chuck Wallace.

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<v Speaker 2>They acquired the first.

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<v Speaker 1>Specimen and included an illustration in the report of the

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<v Speaker 1>remarkable Heela monster, although taxonomists in Washington misidentified it and

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<v Speaker 1>didn't realize it had a venomous bite.

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<v Speaker 2>The bird life was.

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<v Speaker 1>Prodigious among the more intriguing were what they called chaparral cox,

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<v Speaker 1>the big cuckoos known as road runners. The fierce fleet

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<v Speaker 1>road runner was a great enemy of the rattlesnake, they said,

0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.840
<v Speaker 1>taking them in pitched battles, it usually won. And they

0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:19.200
<v Speaker 1>found the so called Mexican eagle, the outsized falcon known

0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.320
<v Speaker 1>as the carocera, extremely numerous, from the Rio Grande to

0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.120
<v Speaker 1>the Sierra Madre. By the time all the identifications were

0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.000
<v Speaker 1>in the Mexican Boundary Survey added a total of three

0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:36.280
<v Speaker 1>hundred eleven new mammals, birds, and reptiles to America's list

0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:41.240
<v Speaker 1>of native animal life. Another relatable time for early New

0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 1>Mexico's wildlife story is probably a century ago, when Vernon

0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:50.160
<v Speaker 1>Bailey and his wife Laurence Miriam Bailey began to analyze

0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:54.800
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico's biological riches and ecologies. They were followed to

0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.600
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico a few years later by another scientist, Aldo Leopold,

0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.280
<v Speaker 1>who rearranged the furniture in all our heads with respect

0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:06.520
<v Speaker 1>to wildlife. Joining those three was the popular wildlife arthur

0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Ernest Thompson, seton writing from Santa Fe setan penned heartbrending

0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:17.640
<v Speaker 1>stories of New Mexico animals such as Tito, the female coyote,

0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:22.240
<v Speaker 1>who allegorically taught coyotes how to avoid extermination, and the

0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:28.400
<v Speaker 1>ratone area wolf Lobo, king of Corumpau, who possessed one

0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.480
<v Speaker 1>fatal flaw his fidelity to his mate.

0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:33.879
<v Speaker 2>It got him killed.

0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.399
<v Speaker 1>Setan's literary theme, we and the Beasts are kin no

0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:44.080
<v Speaker 1>doubt resonated with the native people of New Mexico. What

0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Vernon and Florence Bailey, Aldo Leopold and Ernest Thompson Setan

0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.439
<v Speaker 1>provided all of us living in the West since was

0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:56.040
<v Speaker 1>simple but crucial in effect, how to understand a state

0:17:56.160 --> 0:18:03.800
<v Speaker 1>like New Mexico and its wildlife story by virtue of

0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.200
<v Speaker 1>its location on the continent. New Mexico is a Western

0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.840
<v Speaker 1>state that possesses a riot of diverse ecologies, with more

0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:16.520
<v Speaker 1>native mammal species one hundred and fifty one than any

0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:22.199
<v Speaker 1>other state except California. But a century ago, it's diversity

0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:27.400
<v Speaker 1>struck many observers as almost chaotic. The Baileys were essential

0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:32.320
<v Speaker 1>in changing that perception. Vernon was a slight out eyed,

0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.480
<v Speaker 1>chinless farm boy from Minnesota with seven years of education

0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.880
<v Speaker 1>and churchy enough that until his twenties he had never even

0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:44.040
<v Speaker 1>heard of Charles Darwin. He was a teetotaler his entire life,

0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.400
<v Speaker 1>and a man as other scientists Marvel who never let

0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.600
<v Speaker 1>fly even a mild curse. But he was such a

0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.320
<v Speaker 1>whiz at catching animals and preserving them as specimens that

0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.920
<v Speaker 1>he became the right hand man to Clinton H. Merriam, who,

0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.920
<v Speaker 1>in the eighteen nineties was established the new federal agency

0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.359
<v Speaker 1>called the Biological Survey, which became the US Fish.

0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:07.080
<v Speaker 2>And Wildlife Service.

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:14.520
<v Speaker 1>Miriam's younger sister, Florence, seemed the unlikeliest imaginable partner for Bailey.

0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.840
<v Speaker 1>She was a graduate of Smith College who'd originally planned

0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.719
<v Speaker 1>a thesis on Darwinian evolution. But one of the environmental

0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.160
<v Speaker 1>crises of a century ago was the destruction of birds

0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:30.240
<v Speaker 1>for hats and fashion, and that diverted Florence towards writing

0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 1>about birds their steep decline and preservation. By the start

0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 1>of the twentieth century, she had also discovered Arizona and

0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.119
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico, where as she said, the climate is wonderful.

0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:48.439
<v Speaker 1>Their pairing raised eyebrows, but Florence and Vernon Bailey married

0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.160
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen ninety nine and in nineteen hundred struck out

0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:56.080
<v Speaker 1>on a camping trip across Texas and New Mexico for

0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.800
<v Speaker 1>their honeymoon. It was a part of America that left

0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:05.600
<v Speaker 1>an altogether different impression than the East. We felt everywhere

0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.280
<v Speaker 1>in New Mexico that, while to us the country was new,

0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:14.359
<v Speaker 1>in fact this land of Poco t Info is an old,

0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:20.639
<v Speaker 1>old land. She wrote, very perceptive of Florence. What Vernon

0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.040
<v Speaker 1>was working on for New Mexico was a brand new

0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.920
<v Speaker 1>idea designed to make sense of wildlife distribution. Why were

0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 1>animals found in some locations but not others? Bailey and

0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.520
<v Speaker 1>his boss Seehart Miriam believed they knew, and they pioneered

0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:41.240
<v Speaker 1>a model called life zones. While Bailey is often remembered

0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.880
<v Speaker 1>today for the role he played in designing and defending

0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.879
<v Speaker 1>wolf eradication in the West, he left New Mexico a

0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:54.720
<v Speaker 1>remarkable baseline record for wildlife in a territory where elevation

0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.879
<v Speaker 1>ranged from twenty eight hundred feet to more than thirteen

0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:03.320
<v Speaker 1>thousand feet atop its highest point, Wheeler Peak, near Taos,

0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.720
<v Speaker 1>Bailey mapped out six life zones for plants and animals.

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:13.320
<v Speaker 1>He named them the Lower Sonoran, the Upper Sonoran, the Transition,

0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:18.879
<v Speaker 1>the Canadian, the Hudsonian and the Arctic Alpine. In a

0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:23.919
<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirteen monograph published in North American Fauna, he described

0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:28.120
<v Speaker 1>the existing species compositions of all six of those zones

0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.920
<v Speaker 1>in the brand new state of New Mexico and made

0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:36.720
<v Speaker 1>its wildlife distribution newly intelligible. Taxonomists also credit him with

0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:41.080
<v Speaker 1>realizing that our now endangered Mexican gray wolf was different

0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:45.160
<v Speaker 1>from other wolves, which is why its Latin binomial carries

0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:50.480
<v Speaker 1>Bailey's name. Florence Bailey's contribution was to fashion a similar

0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:54.360
<v Speaker 1>baseline for New Mexico's birds. Her Birds of New Mexico

0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.400
<v Speaker 1>was the first close study of the birds of an

0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:02.000
<v Speaker 1>interior American state. Along with writing the first ever field

0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:06.080
<v Speaker 1>guide for western birds in general, she added a whopping

0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:10.200
<v Speaker 1>ninety four new species of birds to the ornithological list

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:30.359
<v Speaker 1>for New Mexico and the Southwest. Seton and the Baileys

0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:34.200
<v Speaker 1>were experiencing New Mexico at a time when market hunting

0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:39.600
<v Speaker 1>excesses were destroying numerous species that had anciently evolved in America.

0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.840
<v Speaker 1>An industrial hunt for high leather eradicated bison on the

0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:48.000
<v Speaker 1>southern plains in the eighteen seventies, sacrificing billions of animals

0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:50.880
<v Speaker 1>native peoples in New Mexico had depended on for ten

0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:55.840
<v Speaker 1>thousand years. Hispanic New Mexicans, called Sibal arrows, had long

0:22:55.960 --> 0:23:00.159
<v Speaker 1>made pilgrimages themselves to the planes from Santa Fe and towns,

0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 1>and as expert horsemen had hunted bison with lances, hauling

0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:07.480
<v Speaker 1>the meat and pelts back to their real grand towns

0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:12.480
<v Speaker 1>and creaking two wheeled wooden carts. But by eighteen seventy five,

0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:17.760
<v Speaker 1>a decade before they disappeared from Montana, bison were extinguished

0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:22.560
<v Speaker 1>in plains New Mexico. Their destruction had barely taken ten years,

0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:26.160
<v Speaker 1>and that was just the beginning. Exploring the Pecos river

0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:29.800
<v Speaker 1>headwaters in the southern Rockies of New Mexico in eighteen

0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.919
<v Speaker 1>eighty two and eighty three, naturalists Lewis Disch found no

0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 1>big horn sheep left, no elk in the country except

0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.640
<v Speaker 1>a rare and occasional straggler, he wrote, and he neither

0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:45.679
<v Speaker 1>saw wolves nor heard one. Howel he did see what

0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:50.520
<v Speaker 1>he called a herd of eleven grizzly bears traversing Hamilton

0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:54.720
<v Speaker 1>Mesa in the high rockies above Santa Fe, New Mexico,

0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:58.119
<v Speaker 1>made an effort to save some of these animals, but

0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:02.840
<v Speaker 1>following inherited fo traditions from the Old World, the state

0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:07.439
<v Speaker 1>concerned itself largely with the ones called game birds and

0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:11.800
<v Speaker 1>mammals people wanted to hunt. There was little appreciation for

0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:15.360
<v Speaker 1>non game or even for native species that had evolved

0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:19.240
<v Speaker 1>in the southwest. New Mexico Territory created its first bounty

0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:23.199
<v Speaker 1>system for predators in eighteen ninety three. That list of

0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:29.480
<v Speaker 1>money for scalps included wolves, coyotes, bears, lions, and bobcats.

0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 1>State sponsored exotic species introductions of animals like ibex Oryx

0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:41.000
<v Speaker 1>and our dads particularly became a specialty of the New

0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Mexico Game Agency. At least the new National Forests and

0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:48.399
<v Speaker 1>other public lands the US federal government was setting aside

0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:51.160
<v Speaker 1>in New Mexico at the turn of the twentieth century

0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:56.720
<v Speaker 1>did continue to preserve wildlife habitat for future animal recoveries.

0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:06.000
<v Speaker 1>When America's giant step lions and saber toothed cats had

0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:10.919
<v Speaker 1>died out in the Pleistocene extinctions, jaguars had assumed the

0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:15.480
<v Speaker 1>mantle of North America's most imposing big cat, with a

0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:20.000
<v Speaker 1>range that stretched through most of South America. Jaguars were

0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:23.800
<v Speaker 1>at the northernmost limits of their range in the southern US.

0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:28.440
<v Speaker 1>Leopard like in appearance, but heavier and more muscular. Male

0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:32.119
<v Speaker 1>jaguars can weigh more than three hundred pounds. In the

0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:37.200
<v Speaker 1>early twentieth century, the great cats still had established territories

0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:41.080
<v Speaker 1>and were breeding in New Mexico and Arizona, so this

0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:45.159
<v Speaker 1>northern range was not merely a place the occasional male

0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:49.879
<v Speaker 1>jaguar roamed into. Among more than sixty historical records of

0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:54.160
<v Speaker 1>jaguars in the Southwest from eighteen eighty to nineteen ninety five,

0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:59.879
<v Speaker 1>females and kittens are well represented. North American jaguars den

0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:05.000
<v Speaker 1>and hunted in deserts, oak foothills, pinions, juniper and Ponderosa

0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:10.320
<v Speaker 1>pine forests countries, strikingly unlike their jungle habitats to the south.

0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Such open train made them vulnerable to human eyes, though

0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:17.399
<v Speaker 1>especially the eyes of stock raisers and the bounty and

0:26:17.480 --> 0:26:20.320
<v Speaker 1>government hunters employed to protect cows.

0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:21.840
<v Speaker 2>In the early twentieth.

0:26:21.520 --> 0:26:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Century, Aware that jaguars were declining, Vernon Bailey collected as

0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:29.399
<v Speaker 1>many accounts of jaguars as he could find.

0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:32.600
<v Speaker 2>From them, he concluded that the Black.

0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:35.120
<v Speaker 1>Range in the center of New Mexico had long been

0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:39.199
<v Speaker 1>jaguar territory. A bounty hunter had killed jaguars in that

0:26:39.320 --> 0:26:43.040
<v Speaker 1>range of choppy vertical ridges in nineteen hundred and again

0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:46.919
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen oh two, and Bailey collected several other accounts

0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:51.320
<v Speaker 1>from there. Other New Mexico ranges, the Sambre de Cristo's

0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:55.280
<v Speaker 1>the Southern Rockies, in other words, the Sacramentos and the

0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:59.640
<v Speaker 1>San Andres also held jaguars, and into the nineteen twenties

0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:04.359
<v Speaker 1>ranchers were still shooting them. There were accounts of jaguars

0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:08.960
<v Speaker 1>nearly to Colorado, as well as out on the Great Plans. Arizona,

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:13.119
<v Speaker 1>where settlers reported jaguars from Saint Gray's Muggy owned Rim

0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:16.719
<v Speaker 1>Country to the Grand Canyon, had a similar jaguar record.

0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:22.000
<v Speaker 1>The Biological Survey's first recorded jaguar kill was there a

0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:26.399
<v Speaker 1>Federal hunter shot at jaguar in Arizona's Santa Rita Mountains

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:31.160
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen eighteen. The Bureau's operatives in Arizona had few

0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:35.000
<v Speaker 1>doubts about the sources of the jaguar threat, as they

0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:39.720
<v Speaker 1>called it. Its position was this, and I'm quoting, all

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:43.520
<v Speaker 1>lobo wolves and jaguars will be taken as fast as

0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:47.120
<v Speaker 1>they enter this state from Mexico and New Mexico, as

0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:50.240
<v Speaker 1>one hundred percent of them live on livestock and game.

0:27:51.680 --> 0:27:56.600
<v Speaker 1>The Bureau recorded five such renegades crossing into a supposedly

0:27:56.720 --> 0:28:00.840
<v Speaker 1>jaguar free Arizona from nineteen twenty four tonight ten twenty seven.

0:28:01.520 --> 0:28:06.800
<v Speaker 1>Two of those were females, all ended up killed. Jaguars

0:28:06.840 --> 0:28:09.800
<v Speaker 1>were still dying at human hands even on the Gulf

0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:19.639
<v Speaker 1>coast of Texas as late as the nineteen forties. In

0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:23.640
<v Speaker 1>the first half of the twentieth century, another legendary figure,

0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:27.720
<v Speaker 1>ecologist Aldo Leopold, spent enough time in New Mexico to

0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:33.520
<v Speaker 1>shape future wildlife policy, both there and more broadly. Stationed

0:28:33.600 --> 0:28:36.560
<v Speaker 1>in the territory first to manage one of its new

0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:41.440
<v Speaker 1>national forests, Leopold met his future wife, Estella Bergier in

0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:42.880
<v Speaker 1>Santa Fe.

0:28:42.960 --> 0:28:44.520
<v Speaker 2>He went on to study.

0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:49.400
<v Speaker 1>A new phenomenon called game eruptions, the unchecked growth then

0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 1>spectacular crash of populations of mule, deer, elk, and other

0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:59.280
<v Speaker 1>ungulates that followed Americas and New Mexico's eradication of predators

0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:03.840
<v Speaker 1>on behalf of the livestock industry. Leopold found almost no

0:29:04.080 --> 0:29:07.720
<v Speaker 1>record of eruptions before nineteen hundred but he tracked a

0:29:07.800 --> 0:29:12.080
<v Speaker 1>whopping forty two of them between nineteen hundred and nineteen

0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:16.400
<v Speaker 1>forty five. His work and the growing significance of ecological

0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:20.720
<v Speaker 1>science slowly began to produce an appreciation for non game,

0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:26.080
<v Speaker 1>even for wolves, lions, and New Mexico's unofficial state animal,

0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:30.840
<v Speaker 1>the coyote. The nineteen seventy six listing of the Mexican

0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:34.000
<v Speaker 1>gray wolf and its later recovery plan under the New

0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Endangered Species Act was an extension of Leopold's work in

0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:42.560
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico. Ending coyote hunting contest on state lands in

0:29:42.600 --> 0:29:53.080
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico was another, while Vernon Bailey's century old life

0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:57.480
<v Speaker 1>zones model continues to have some relevance in understanding New

0:29:57.520 --> 0:30:01.640
<v Speaker 1>Mexico wildlife. The science of a cology, with its emphasis

0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:06.640
<v Speaker 1>today on interactive communities known as ecosystems, and subsequent work

0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:12.800
<v Speaker 1>in mapping ecoregions, has advanced our understanding of whyde diverse

0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:17.880
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico once seemed chaotic. In a state split by

0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:21.920
<v Speaker 1>the continental divide, and where the Great Plains, the Rocky Mountains,

0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:27.959
<v Speaker 1>the Colorado Plateau, and the Southwestern deserts all converge, ecological

0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:32.720
<v Speaker 1>diversity is enormous. At a fine grain level of mapping,

0:30:33.040 --> 0:30:39.920
<v Speaker 1>the state features eight principal ecoregions, such as the southwestern tablelands,

0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:46.120
<v Speaker 1>for example, divided into an absolutely astonishing fifty five ecological

0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:51.520
<v Speaker 1>subsets like the Pinon juniper woodlands. Add in, the deep

0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:55.600
<v Speaker 1>time historical dimension and the special qualities of a place

0:30:55.680 --> 0:31:00.920
<v Speaker 1>like New Mexico stand evident. Twenty thousand years ago, Wisconsin

0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:06.480
<v Speaker 1>ice age brought northern species like sheep and marmots far south.

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:11.000
<v Speaker 1>Then massive heat events like the Alta thermal of eight

0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:15.520
<v Speaker 1>thousand to five thousand years ago expanded southern and desert

0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:20.360
<v Speaker 1>species northward. When Vernon Bailey was in New Mexico seeking

0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:24.720
<v Speaker 1>out remnant bighorn sheep, he discovered that in New Mexico,

0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:28.800
<v Speaker 1>jaguars at the extreme northern end of a range that

0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:33.320
<v Speaker 1>stretched down through the Americas, were hunting rocky Mountain bighorn

0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:37.560
<v Speaker 1>sheep at the southern end of an alpine habitat extending

0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:42.360
<v Speaker 1>far northward up the mountain chain to Alaska. Not many

0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:45.200
<v Speaker 1>places on the continent can make a claim like that.

0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Today.

0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:58.160
<v Speaker 1>Mexican wolves, which we reduce to such tiny numbers that

0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:02.040
<v Speaker 1>they now struggle with suffici. This genetic diversity to survive.

0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:06.320
<v Speaker 1>Are the southwest most famous endangered animals, but a state

0:32:06.400 --> 0:32:09.560
<v Speaker 1>is varied, as New Mexico has many more, sixty four

0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:12.920
<v Speaker 1>of them in all. If New Mexico hopes to preserve

0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:16.360
<v Speaker 1>the full suite of the animals that were originally here,

0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:21.920
<v Speaker 1>it will have to save Mexican spotted owls, northern applemato falcons,

0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:28.240
<v Speaker 1>Southwestern willow flycatchers, kila trout, blackfooted ferrets, meadow jumping mice,

0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:33.479
<v Speaker 1>and ridge nosed rattlesnakes, among many others. The state today

0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:37.720
<v Speaker 1>is working on all that. New Mexico's State Wildlife Action

0:32:37.880 --> 0:32:41.800
<v Speaker 1>Plan is designing strategies now to conserve what it calls

0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:46.880
<v Speaker 1>species of greatest conservation need, along with their habitats to

0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:50.560
<v Speaker 1>confront human cause climate change that threatens to make an

0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:54.640
<v Speaker 1>already arid state a drier and hotter version of itself.

0:32:55.160 --> 0:32:59.880
<v Speaker 1>Anticipating and protecting connectivity quarters so that species able to

0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:03.760
<v Speaker 1>relocate can to new habitats is part of that plan,

0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:07.560
<v Speaker 1>so is preserving as much genetic diversity as we can.

0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:11.239
<v Speaker 1>The state's fixed polestar is and it ought to be

0:33:11.480 --> 0:33:15.080
<v Speaker 1>a future where we return as many of those original

0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:18.600
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico species to the state as possible, and that

0:33:18.800 --> 0:33:24.240
<v Speaker 1>includes jaguars not officially listed as a US endangered species

0:33:24.320 --> 0:33:29.520
<v Speaker 1>until nineteen ninety seven. Jaguars only acquired a recovery plan

0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:33.840
<v Speaker 1>in the United States in twenty eighteen. As with gray wolves,

0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:38.360
<v Speaker 1>jaguar recovery depends on the nations bordering the US having

0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:42.600
<v Speaker 1>preserved the big animals better than we have. The truth

0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:46.600
<v Speaker 1>is that the Fish and Wildlife's twenty eighteen plan offers

0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:52.040
<v Speaker 1>pretty faint hope for the return of lt gray encourage

0:33:52.080 --> 0:33:55.720
<v Speaker 1>that seven male jaguars have ventured into the US since

0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety six. The architects of the recovery plan didn't

0:33:59.840 --> 0:34:04.120
<v Speaker 1>end vision a hard release of captive jaguars, as we have.

0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Done with gray wolves.

0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:09.919
<v Speaker 1>Their hope instead was that the cats will reoccupy their

0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:14.600
<v Speaker 1>former range via two different quarridors that could connect populations

0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:19.359
<v Speaker 1>in Mexico to Arizona and New Mexico. The problem is

0:34:19.360 --> 0:34:24.520
<v Speaker 1>that those jaguar migration corridors reached the US exactly where

0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:29.880
<v Speaker 1>our country has been erecting its border wall against human migrants.

0:34:30.360 --> 0:34:34.719
<v Speaker 1>The twenty eighteen jaguar recovery proposal is a forty year

0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:39.440
<v Speaker 1>proposition with delisting happening only in the event that our

0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:42.239
<v Speaker 1>breeding population of female.

0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Cats arrives here.

0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:46.919
<v Speaker 1>But if we really want to restore jaguars, we're going

0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:50.719
<v Speaker 1>to have to revisit that plan, and two prominent environmental

0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:54.759
<v Speaker 1>groups have already done so. The Center for Biological Diversity

0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:58.880
<v Speaker 1>and Defenders of Wildlife have counterproposed a three hundred and

0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:02.600
<v Speaker 1>twenty nine square mile recovery area in New Mexico and

0:35:02.680 --> 0:35:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Arizona that significantly overlaps the Mexican Wolf recovery zone. What

0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:11.520
<v Speaker 1>they call for is a hard release of a dozen jaguars,

0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:14.880
<v Speaker 1>as we've done with gray wolves and Yellowstone New Mexico

0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:18.960
<v Speaker 1>and Arizona and now Colorado, to began recovery in an

0:35:19.000 --> 0:35:22.040
<v Speaker 1>area that could eventually support one hundred to one hundred

0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:26.520
<v Speaker 1>and fifty of the southwest original big felines. As for me,

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:31.360
<v Speaker 1>I'll admit I want to see muscular jaguars once again

0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:35.160
<v Speaker 1>pursuing big horn sheep in the New Mexico Rockies, and

0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:37.040
<v Speaker 1>if I don't get to see it, I at least

0:35:37.040 --> 0:35:39.279
<v Speaker 1>want to look up at the snowcap peaks out my

0:35:39.360 --> 0:35:42.520
<v Speaker 1>front door and imagine that such a spectacle will play

0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:46.600
<v Speaker 1>out in the future. Arizona accepted. No other Western state

0:35:46.800 --> 0:35:50.400
<v Speaker 1>than New Mexico is likely to see that kind of

0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:51.360
<v Speaker 1>natural marble.

0:36:01.560 --> 0:36:06.640
<v Speaker 3>All right, Dan, In this episode, I think that you

0:36:06.800 --> 0:36:11.800
<v Speaker 3>begin at some point by talking about how most Americans

0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:17.360
<v Speaker 3>imaginations sort of failed to fully comprehend the diversity of

0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:20.759
<v Speaker 3>landscape and culture that is New Mexico. Yeah, and I'm

0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:24.160
<v Speaker 3>wondering if that's a branding problem. We didn't go with

0:36:24.200 --> 0:36:29.120
<v Speaker 3>southern Colorado or eastern California. You know, people just for

0:36:29.160 --> 0:36:33.040
<v Speaker 3>whatever reason, people New Mexico. It just brings to mind

0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:35.799
<v Speaker 3>a certain image and that's it. This is obviously not

0:36:35.840 --> 0:36:37.160
<v Speaker 3>a serious question, but.

0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:42.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I think there are parts of the West

0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:48.960
<v Speaker 1>that are readily accessible to people. I mean, Yellowstone comes

0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:54.320
<v Speaker 1>to mind, Yosemite National Park in California, you know, Glacier.

0:36:55.960 --> 0:36:59.359
<v Speaker 1>There are places that large numbers of people have been

0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:07.279
<v Speaker 1>appear in calendar photographs, that appear in documentaries that you

0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:12.080
<v Speaker 1>see on television, and so you know about those. I

0:37:12.160 --> 0:37:15.800
<v Speaker 1>think that there are very definitely places like you mentioned

0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:19.640
<v Speaker 1>eastern California. You know, hardly anybody knows much about that

0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:22.319
<v Speaker 1>part of the world unless you travel through it. I mean,

0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:28.279
<v Speaker 1>I would say eastern Washington and eastern Oregon, almost fall

0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:31.879
<v Speaker 1>into that same category, because what everybody knows about when

0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:35.799
<v Speaker 1>they imagine Oregon or Washington State, they always imagine the

0:37:35.880 --> 0:37:36.680
<v Speaker 1>coastal parks.

0:37:36.680 --> 0:37:38.520
<v Speaker 2>They imagine Seattle and Portland.

0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:42.440
<v Speaker 1>And Eugene and all the wetter, greener part that's closer

0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:47.359
<v Speaker 1>to the Pacific. I think New Mexico, and I sort

0:37:47.360 --> 0:37:52.880
<v Speaker 1>of feel this about the whole Southwest. It plays a

0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:58.560
<v Speaker 1>kind of an exotic role in American life because that

0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:03.080
<v Speaker 1>part of the country is so unlike much of the rest,

0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:04.120
<v Speaker 1>even of the West.

0:38:04.480 --> 0:38:07.240
<v Speaker 2>I think we can people who grew.

0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:10.560
<v Speaker 1>Up in New England or in the Great Lakes Country,

0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:18.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, you can imagine Yellowstone, the Montana Rockies, the

0:38:18.120 --> 0:38:22.120
<v Speaker 1>Grand Tetons, you can imagine all that, because it's not

0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:26.560
<v Speaker 1>hugely dissimilar from the green and better watered world that

0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:31.000
<v Speaker 1>you're familiar with. But that really arid, desert like country

0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:33.520
<v Speaker 1>in the Southwest, I think it is, you know, and

0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:36.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm one of the things I've laughed about a lot

0:38:36.680 --> 0:38:41.520
<v Speaker 1>and watching sports is the inevitable use of the term Okay,

0:38:41.600 --> 0:38:44.240
<v Speaker 1>this game is going to be played down in the desert,

0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:48.280
<v Speaker 1>and it's nobody ever says that we're going to be playing,

0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:51.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, up in the foothills of the Colorado Rockies.

0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:54.120
<v Speaker 1>We're not We're not going to do that with the

0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:57.720
<v Speaker 1>Denver Broncos because that's a more familiar place. But anything

0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:01.440
<v Speaker 1>that happens down in the Southwest is always prefaced by

0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:04.000
<v Speaker 1>this is going to take place down in the desert.

0:39:04.280 --> 0:39:06.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:10.520
<v Speaker 3>I think one of the big takeaways from this piece

0:39:12.040 --> 0:39:17.279
<v Speaker 3>is just how layered New Mexico's history and culture and

0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:18.080
<v Speaker 3>landscape are.

0:39:18.440 --> 0:39:19.840
<v Speaker 2>That's good And.

0:39:21.960 --> 0:39:25.719
<v Speaker 3>One of the things that I think became apparent to

0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:31.640
<v Speaker 3>me just thinking about the script is these are they're

0:39:31.680 --> 0:39:35.360
<v Speaker 3>all interrelated, and you think about how long people have

0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:37.520
<v Speaker 3>been on the ground in New Mexico. Some of our

0:39:37.719 --> 0:39:42.520
<v Speaker 3>oldest evidence of human occupation in the Americas is in

0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:46.880
<v Speaker 3>New Mexico, and it's a place where these different types

0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:51.040
<v Speaker 3>of landscapes come together. And for me, I was thinking

0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:54.560
<v Speaker 3>about sort of transitional habitats and how these places where

0:39:54.880 --> 0:39:59.280
<v Speaker 3>two different types of landscapes or biomes, they where they intersect.

0:39:59.320 --> 0:40:03.080
<v Speaker 3>That's a good place for animals to.

0:40:03.040 --> 0:40:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Be, right, Yeah, it is ecotones.

0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:09.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And so I think about the thought was occurring

0:40:09.040 --> 0:40:10.680
<v Speaker 3>to me as I was reading this of just like

0:40:10.960 --> 0:40:14.759
<v Speaker 3>how interrelated its history and its landscape are and the

0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:16.520
<v Speaker 3>interplay between those two things.

0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:22.360
<v Speaker 1>I think it's that combination of all those are so

0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:27.400
<v Speaker 1>many of the big ecological zones of the West in

0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:31.320
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico. I mean, as I said in the script,

0:40:31.719 --> 0:40:35.920
<v Speaker 1>it's the place where the Rocky Mountains, the Great Plains,

0:40:36.080 --> 0:40:39.799
<v Speaker 1>the Colorado Plateau, Canyon Country, and the true deserts of

0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:42.760
<v Speaker 1>the Southwest all converge in that one spot.

0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:45.640
<v Speaker 2>And I have a sneaking feeling that one of the reasons.

0:40:45.239 --> 0:40:49.479
<v Speaker 1>We have so many early human sights from the North

0:40:49.520 --> 0:40:52.279
<v Speaker 1>American story in New Mexico. I mean it's not just

0:40:52.360 --> 0:40:55.719
<v Speaker 1>the Clovist site that's there and the Folesome site that's there,

0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:58.760
<v Speaker 1>the original of both of those are in New Mexico,

0:40:59.080 --> 0:41:02.800
<v Speaker 1>but also this recent discovery in twenty nineteen of twenty

0:41:02.840 --> 0:41:05.879
<v Speaker 1>three thousand year old footprints down in the southern part

0:41:05.880 --> 0:41:10.920
<v Speaker 1>of the state. Is that that combination of settings plains,

0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Rocky Mountains, Colorado Platzau canyons, and southwestern deserts I think

0:41:16.320 --> 0:41:20.440
<v Speaker 1>must have drawn people. I mean, the climate is amenable

0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:22.759
<v Speaker 1>for one thing, you get off the end of the

0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:25.560
<v Speaker 1>southern Rockies, and the climate is not one you have

0:41:25.640 --> 0:41:30.520
<v Speaker 1>to suffer through really to get through, especially say fifteen

0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:33.359
<v Speaker 1>thousand years or so ago, when it was colder than

0:41:33.440 --> 0:41:37.240
<v Speaker 1>it is now, and so that country probably attracted people

0:41:37.280 --> 0:41:39.919
<v Speaker 1>for that reason, but I think it was that diversity

0:41:39.960 --> 0:41:43.000
<v Speaker 1>of landscapes that also did it, and that's the reason

0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:46.440
<v Speaker 1>we have so many of these early sites for humans

0:41:46.440 --> 0:41:49.520
<v Speaker 1>in North America that occur in that particular part of

0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:50.480
<v Speaker 1>the west.

0:41:51.280 --> 0:41:55.719
<v Speaker 3>And you speaking of sort of this bleed over of

0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:58.920
<v Speaker 3>different regions, you talk in this article a lot.

0:41:58.760 --> 0:41:59.840
<v Speaker 2>About the jaguar.

0:42:00.560 --> 0:42:06.839
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and it's sort of the embodiment of ecological connections

0:42:06.840 --> 0:42:12.799
<v Speaker 3>between North America, Central America, South America, and it comes

0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:16.520
<v Speaker 3>up into New Mexico. And there's something I don't know,

0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:19.640
<v Speaker 3>there's something about that. Not only are jaguars interesting to

0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:25.319
<v Speaker 3>me just as an animal, but sort of the what

0:42:25.360 --> 0:42:31.200
<v Speaker 3>that represents as far as the connection across continents is interesting.

0:42:31.400 --> 0:42:34.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no kidding, because I mean the jaguar we think of,

0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:35.799
<v Speaker 1>you know, I mean, it's found all the way down

0:42:35.840 --> 0:42:39.920
<v Speaker 1>to Argentina and so up and down the South American

0:42:40.000 --> 0:42:43.120
<v Speaker 1>continent through Central America, and we think of jaguars as

0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:46.399
<v Speaker 1>being kind of jungle animals, sort of like tigers are.

0:42:48.360 --> 0:42:53.680
<v Speaker 1>And yet its northern range was in the American Southwest

0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:57.960
<v Speaker 1>and was now New Mexico and Arizona. And to me,

0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:01.719
<v Speaker 1>one of the exciting things when I was working on

0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:08.600
<v Speaker 1>this particular story in the beginning, was encountering this idea,

0:43:08.640 --> 0:43:10.439
<v Speaker 1>and it's an idea that I think that really still

0:43:10.520 --> 0:43:14.279
<v Speaker 1>resonates in my mind that as a result of the

0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:19.320
<v Speaker 1>climate history, you know, pulling these species up from South

0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:22.800
<v Speaker 1>America and Central America into what is now the United States,

0:43:23.120 --> 0:43:30.600
<v Speaker 1>like jaguars, like collared peckeras have Alina's, like armadillos, and

0:43:30.640 --> 0:43:38.000
<v Speaker 1>then from a different set of influences extending along the

0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:42.120
<v Speaker 1>crest of the Rocky Mountains from Alaska, these species that

0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:46.200
<v Speaker 1>like bighorn sheep that you think of as being very

0:43:46.360 --> 0:43:49.960
<v Speaker 1>northerly kind of animals all the way down into what

0:43:50.160 --> 0:43:54.040
<v Speaker 1>is now New Mexico, and having those two jaguars be

0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:57.440
<v Speaker 1>hunting big horn sheep. I mean, that's just to me

0:43:57.560 --> 0:44:01.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of a remarkable convergence of things that I still

0:44:02.080 --> 0:44:05.120
<v Speaker 1>like to play with in my mind. And what I'm

0:44:05.160 --> 0:44:10.200
<v Speaker 1>hoping for if we managed to recover jaguars, is having

0:44:10.280 --> 0:44:12.640
<v Speaker 1>something like that happen again, because that seems to be

0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:16.920
<v Speaker 1>a pretty magical kind of convergence of species across the

0:44:16.960 --> 0:44:19.440
<v Speaker 1>continents in the Americas, and.

0:44:21.160 --> 0:44:24.319
<v Speaker 3>Sort of along those same lines in terms of convergence,

0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:28.680
<v Speaker 3>we New Mexico is such a unique place for how

0:44:28.760 --> 0:44:33.799
<v Speaker 3>visible the Spanish and indigenous and not only I mean

0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:40.560
<v Speaker 3>to say indigenous is to oversimplify it, you know, very

0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:45.120
<v Speaker 3>different across the long span of time, Indigenous cultures, then

0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:49.040
<v Speaker 3>the Spanish, then sort of the Anglo influence from the

0:44:49.160 --> 0:44:53.560
<v Speaker 3>United States. I think of all the states in the West,

0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:59.040
<v Speaker 3>New Mexico probably maybe where's that most proudly I.

0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:01.319
<v Speaker 1>Think it does, and I I think you know, I mean,

0:45:01.680 --> 0:45:06.799
<v Speaker 1>and I quoted Florence Miriam Bailey in this particular script too,

0:45:07.280 --> 0:45:09.880
<v Speaker 1>when she was in New Mexico said, you know, unlike

0:45:09.920 --> 0:45:13.959
<v Speaker 1>anywhere else I've been, I mean to us, to her

0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:17.560
<v Speaker 1>and her husband Vernon Bailey on their honeymoon. This was

0:45:17.600 --> 0:45:20.000
<v Speaker 1>a brand new place, but it was clear that it

0:45:20.040 --> 0:45:21.920
<v Speaker 1>was a very old place. And that's one of the

0:45:21.920 --> 0:45:25.360
<v Speaker 1>things you can't miss in a place like New Mexico

0:45:25.520 --> 0:45:28.240
<v Speaker 1>that you often can in other parts of the West,

0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:33.399
<v Speaker 1>and that is the lingering presence on the landscape of

0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:39.080
<v Speaker 1>prior occupations, prior inhabitations. Chaco CanYa National Park for example,

0:45:40.080 --> 0:45:46.839
<v Speaker 1>which was going enterprise in the Southwest a thousand years ago,

0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:51.080
<v Speaker 1>has left ruins that. I mean, it's now National Park,

0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:55.000
<v Speaker 1>of course, and a visitor designation or destination for people from.

0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:55.439
<v Speaker 2>All the world.

0:45:55.840 --> 0:45:59.400
<v Speaker 1>But it kind of leaves you with the sense of, Wow,

0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:03.040
<v Speaker 1>we are late comers to this part of the world.

0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:06.400
<v Speaker 1>This thing has been playing out, this human story has

0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:08.239
<v Speaker 1>been playing out in this part of the world for

0:46:08.280 --> 0:46:13.799
<v Speaker 1>a long time. And those kind of physical that physical

0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:18.160
<v Speaker 1>evidence of occupation going way back into the past is

0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:23.880
<v Speaker 1>more present in the Southwest, in Arizona and New Mexico

0:46:23.920 --> 0:46:26.319
<v Speaker 1>than it is anywhere else in the West. So it

0:46:26.400 --> 0:46:28.840
<v Speaker 1>kind of drives home to you, Wow, this is we

0:46:28.880 --> 0:46:31.080
<v Speaker 1>didn't We're not starting something brand new here.

0:46:31.480 --> 0:46:34.560
<v Speaker 2>This is a very old place. Yet.

0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.200
<v Speaker 3>The phrase that kept popping into my mind as I

0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:40.880
<v Speaker 3>was thinking about this more and more was one that

0:46:40.920 --> 0:46:45.719
<v Speaker 3>I remember from elementary school history, which.

0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:46.839
<v Speaker 2>Is cradle of civilization.

0:46:47.160 --> 0:46:49.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, which is a term that's referred to used to

0:46:49.960 --> 0:46:52.160
<v Speaker 3>refer to certain parts of the globe that have that

0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:54.600
<v Speaker 3>sort of ancient gravitas.

0:46:54.880 --> 0:46:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:46:56.120 --> 0:46:58.279
<v Speaker 3>And I wonder if you think of New Mexico and

0:46:58.360 --> 0:46:59.880
<v Speaker 3>those in those terms.

0:47:00.160 --> 0:47:04.879
<v Speaker 1>I particularly think of the Chaco area in northwestern New

0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:07.719
<v Speaker 1>Mexico as a kind of an American version of the

0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:11.120
<v Speaker 1>Tigris euphrase river valleys in the Middle East, which when

0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:13.839
<v Speaker 1>people talk about the cradle civilization, that's often what they're

0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:19.600
<v Speaker 1>referring to. And yeah, I think northwestern New Mexico really

0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:24.040
<v Speaker 1>gives you that sense. And if you're in Chaco Canyon

0:47:25.120 --> 0:47:29.200
<v Speaker 1>National Historic Park, all you have to do is walk

0:47:29.239 --> 0:47:33.640
<v Speaker 1>among those ruins and you get a powerful sense of

0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:38.200
<v Speaker 1>this is kind of where North America began, you know.

0:47:38.280 --> 0:47:42.279
<v Speaker 1>And there are certainly older places. I mean, we have

0:47:42.400 --> 0:47:45.759
<v Speaker 1>evidence of the Clovis and the fulsome people in New

0:47:45.800 --> 0:47:50.200
<v Speaker 1>Mexico as well, but boy, Chaco is really it really

0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:52.200
<v Speaker 1>raises the hair on the back of your neck when

0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:52.600
<v Speaker 1>you're there.

0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:55.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, I need to make it down at some point. Yeah,

0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:58.440
<v Speaker 3>you do, all right? Thanks Dan, you bet Randall.

0:47:58.480 --> 0:48:06.680
<v Speaker 1>Thanks U