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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much

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Speaker 1: for tuning in, and Happy Halloween.

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Speaker 2: Mary Sowen, Sam Hayne.

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Speaker 1: Now I was just oh, I'm Ben your nol and

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Speaker 1: we are immensely fortunate to be recording on this the

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Speaker 1: most wonderful time of the year. Because while our while

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Speaker 1: our good friend or write or die, mister Max Williams

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Speaker 1: is encountering adventures rocking his white pants, we pulled some strings,

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Speaker 1: we have a little bit of juice, we called in

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Speaker 1: some favors, and Noel, we are joined yet again by

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Speaker 1: none other that the Man, the Myth, the Heartbreaker of

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Speaker 1: Paris super producer Casey Pegrum.

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Speaker 3: Guys, this totally makes up for the hour of poop.

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Speaker 2: Talk that I do endure it. I'll come on, really,

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Speaker 2: how dare you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Casey, as as you may or may not know,

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Speaker 1: me and Noel often conspire, we talk about you all

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Speaker 1: the time, dude, we're fanboys a little bit. The only

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Speaker 1: people who talk about you more than us are, of course,

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Speaker 1: our fellow Ridiculous Historians. So maybe before we roll in here,

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Speaker 1: you've been back for a few episodes. We're going to

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Speaker 1: continue this bit and we have to ask, just for

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Speaker 1: everybody once again, what about your adventures? Man? What what's

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the world of Pegram.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm I'm domesticated these days. I have not

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Speaker 3: been outside the country. I have not been on a

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Speaker 3: a voyage more than one state away.

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Speaker 2: A boy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a it was a good trip. It

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Speaker 3: was a weekend trip to Miami. It was a lot

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Speaker 3: of fun. We've never been to my it was my

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Speaker 3: first time there, and it's a it's like another world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. Get there before it sings, you know, enjoy.

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Speaker 3: Why I can. But yeah, I mean my my kind

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Speaker 3: of world gallivanting ways for the moment are kind of

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Speaker 3: on pause. But we do hope to do some international

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Speaker 3: travel soon to visit my west family and Cameroon as

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Speaker 3: well as.

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Speaker 2: Other other places amazing.

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Speaker 1: And this will, I hope I'm not telling tales out

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Speaker 1: of school. This will not be our brother Casey's first

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Speaker 1: foray into that into that continent. Because, as people may

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Speaker 1: or may not know, during another project that we that

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Speaker 1: we worked on together, uh, Casey flew out to Johannesburg.

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Speaker 3: That is true. That was an amazing experience and I

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Speaker 3: still think back on that often fondly. And yeah, I

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Speaker 3: can't wait to get back to the continent again. Although

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Speaker 3: Cameron is quite different.

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Speaker 1: Yea, yeah, yeah, far fewer africaners. Uh, that's true from

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Speaker 1: what I understand. And and the thing about Miami is

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Speaker 1: that Miami itself has uh it's kind of an East

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Speaker 1: Coast Los Angeles. There is a unique culture, distinctive culture.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who are dressed up,

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Speaker 1: which is the worst segue I've done this year, And.

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Speaker 2: I was wondering it does seem, you know, from all

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Speaker 2: the videos and whatever the vicarious experiences of Miami that

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Speaker 2: I've had, it has sort of a carnival esque kind

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Speaker 2: of atmosphere, right, Oh for sure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm gonna tell you.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you guys, I've got some I've got

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Speaker 1: some friends who live in Miami. They love it unanimously.

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Speaker 1: And I've had a couple of Miami romances. And I

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Speaker 1: haven't been to the town as an adult, but I

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Speaker 1: imagine when I go there, I'll be like a schlubby

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Speaker 1: Frodo esque hobbit. I will accidentally do cosplay in Miami,

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Speaker 1: like like we accidentally did cosplay in Las Vegas. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about costumes. That's the that's the pitch, that's the

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Speaker 1: thing we are. We were earlier, Noel, you and I

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Speaker 1: were talking on our show stuff They don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know about all things Halloween. We did an episode

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Speaker 1: recently on the practice, the fact of fiction of witch hunting,

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Speaker 1: which is a terrible phenomenon that exists today in Cameroon

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Speaker 1: as well, Casey.

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Speaker 2: So well, you know, it came up at the end

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Speaker 2: of the episode that there are still, despite you know,

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Speaker 2: history and all the march of history, still quite a

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Speaker 2: few which actual facts witch trials that take place to

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Speaker 2: this day. And I do imagine that they, you know,

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Speaker 2: are in countries where the law around those kinds of

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Speaker 2: things is still a little more murky, you know, and

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Speaker 2: a little more kangaroo quartie perhaps Papua New.

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Speaker 1: Guinea, parts of rural India, rural areas of states on

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Speaker 1: the African continent, and the Amazon.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, you hear people talking about voodoo in

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Speaker 3: like a real palpable way sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And here in the United States, this obsession with strange

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Speaker 1: things that go bump in the night, with the occults,

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Speaker 1: with accusations of the infernal and the paranormal. These ideas

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Speaker 1: have been commodified, monetized, and they've become the bedrock or

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Speaker 1: the predecessors of some actual, pretty enjoyable stuff. Halloween is

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Speaker 1: on the way as we record, and you know, us, folks,

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Speaker 1: we had to do an episode to solve the history

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Speaker 1: of trick or treating. You guys remember trick or treating

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Speaker 1: where all all three of us lived in the US, Right,

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Speaker 1: that's not a sleeper hit.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, I remember it fondly, and my kid is

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Speaker 2: only just now borderline aging out of it. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's a lineal space, right, It is a little bit so.

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Speaker 2: Around fourteen, I think, is when trick or treating becomes

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Speaker 2: less about knocking on doors for candy and more about

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Speaker 2: perhaps the trick aspect of the devil's bargain is implied

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Speaker 2: with trick or treat. Yeah, my kid's good, good kid

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Speaker 2: would never tp someone's house, you know, yeah, right.

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Speaker 1: The trick or treat dichotomy, that's that's beautiful. And I

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Speaker 1: think in the United States in general, the cutoff starts

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Speaker 1: to occur when someone gets their learners permit, right when

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Speaker 1: you can drive.

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Speaker 2: So we're preparing for that with baited breath and heart palpitations.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we speak.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're gonna be sitting in the shotgun seat

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Speaker 1: and unconsciously pump your foot on a break that doesn't exist.

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Speaker 2: Well, the good news is the car that I've been

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Speaker 2: driving for years now is totally paid off, and it's

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Speaker 2: a very safe car that never had trouble with And

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to gift it, you know, to my

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Speaker 2: kid when they when they turn of age. And it

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Speaker 2: means I get to buy a car for myself.

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Speaker 1: Which is that on? Was that a Ford Focus?

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Speaker 2: It's a Ford? Uh, Honda Fit does have a similar

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Speaker 2: shape profile to the Focus, but they don't make Honda

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Speaker 2: Fits anymore, So I've got to get something else because

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Speaker 2: I have loved that. Well, they don't make it in America.

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Speaker 2: I think it's available in overseas, but I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'll have to talk to you offline, Ben, you being

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Speaker 2: the car stuff guy, about what I should get.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, hey, I'm I'm probably getting a new vehicle as well,

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Speaker 1: So maybe we can make it a double date, go

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Speaker 1: shop around.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah with a good cop, bad cop them?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 3: What was it?

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Speaker 2: Vic? Vinegar always tend honey somebody honey something honey.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was honey, and hangar hank honey.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It was definitely alliterative, no question about

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Speaker 2: it was yes, because alliteration is awesome.

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Speaker 1: Get it.

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Speaker 2: We're moving on.

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Speaker 1: So trick or treating. How would we describe the concept

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Speaker 1: of trick or treating to someone who was unfamiliar.

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Speaker 2: Well, again, it is a there's an implied bargain. And

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Speaker 2: if you watch the episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where

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Speaker 2: Larry gets terrorized by some aged out trick or treaters

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Speaker 2: who he refuses to serve, the cops come to his

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Speaker 2: house and say, well, sir, did you give the treat?

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Speaker 2: He's like, no, they were they were too old. He goes, well,

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Speaker 2: if you don't give the treat, the implication is the trick.

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Speaker 2: So again, I think that we've gotten to a place

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Speaker 2: largely where the trick part isn't necessarily guaranteed. But it

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Speaker 2: used to be that, yeah, you're giving an option of

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Speaker 2: give me a treat or else you will be visited

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Speaker 2: upon by some sort of malfeasance, whether it be you know,

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Speaker 2: dog poop set on fire in as casey you knew

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Speaker 2: poop was coming back that you have to stop out. Well,

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Speaker 2: that's not malign, casey to, but who does it? Man?

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Speaker 2: Who doesn't love a good poop joke? But yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean it's certainly the mischief aspect of it has always

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Speaker 2: been kind of historically in play. Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, here's the setting seen in setting. Folks in the

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Speaker 1: United States on October thirty first, right as the twilight

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Speaker 1: hour hits, right, golden hour fades away and the sun retreats,

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Speaker 1: you will, depending upon your neighborhood, find yourself beset by

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Speaker 1: roving group children and teenagers and sometimes their parents ringing doorbells.

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Speaker 1: And when you answer the doorbell or the knock on

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Speaker 1: the door, and they will be clad in any number

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Speaker 1: of costumes, they will say the following phrase trick or

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Speaker 1: treat hopefully with my feet, give me something good to eat?

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Speaker 1: Please you don't I don't care.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a whole mythology around it. It's also it

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Speaker 1: occurs in other countries as well. The way this covenant

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Speaker 1: works is these kids show up and they ask for candy.

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Speaker 1: They're dressed as you know, astronauts and vampires and whatever.

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Speaker 1: And the weird thing about this is how normalized it

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Speaker 1: is in a country that often behaves in a religiously

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Speaker 1: conservative manner. So why has this thing, Why is this

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Speaker 1: bit of theater every year been normalized, accepted and judge wholesome.

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Speaker 1: It's because the origins of trick or treaty are still murky,

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Speaker 1: but we know they date back really far. You can

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Speaker 1: see predecessors in ancient Celtic festivals, early Roman Catholic holidays,

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Speaker 1: some medieval social mores. And this was a surprise to me.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to our research associate Jeff Bartlett. You can

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Speaker 1: even see some traces of this in British politics. No,

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Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned Sawen the ancient origin of Halloween.

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Speaker 2: What is so? Yeah, it was what the Celts dubbed

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Speaker 2: this particular season, involving villagers disguising themselves in various costumes,

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Speaker 2: often made from animal skins. And it's something like we

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Speaker 2: see in a lot of traditions, like I believe in

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Speaker 2: like Chinese New Year, the drag and all the beating

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Speaker 2: of the drums and the fireworks and stuff to scare

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Speaker 2: away evil spirits. So it's again, we just did an

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Speaker 2: episode of Stuff That Don't Want You to Know about

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Speaker 2: witch hunts and talked about how the belief in evil

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Speaker 2: spirits or demonic forces or the devil or whatever. Black

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Speaker 2: magic is a tale as old as time, and it

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Speaker 2: required some sort of intervention, you know, whether it be

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Speaker 2: to spare your village from a blight you know, on

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Speaker 2: the crops, or whatever, from like the death of children.

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Speaker 2: Because you know, in past times these things were much

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Speaker 2: more common. You'd know, people didn't live as long, and

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Speaker 2: there was a sense that people could control their destiny

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Speaker 2: and help steer the course of their lives by participating

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Speaker 2: in some of these you know, events, And what we

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Speaker 2: see now in the United States is obviously a much

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Speaker 2: more sanitized, less functional version of this. But they were

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Speaker 2: intending during Sawen celebrations to drive away these spirits. They

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Speaker 2: would have banks that were prepared, food was left out

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Speaker 2: to placate some of these spirits. That's also a thing

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Speaker 2: we see in a lot of other cultures, like the

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Speaker 2: hungry leaving hungry ghosts, leaving out food for your ancestors

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Speaker 2: on a shrine perhaps, And you know, we see numerous

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Speaker 2: flavors and styles of this kind of thing throughout history,

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Speaker 2: and many of which really persevere today in what you

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Speaker 2: could argue is a much more functional way, right yes,

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Speaker 2: just so in terms of the level of belief that

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Speaker 2: it will actually that it is accomplishing something. It's not

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Speaker 2: just a kind of a marketing holiday, which is sort

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Speaker 2: of what Halloween has become. If it's great though, it's

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Speaker 2: so fun.

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Speaker 1: It is so fun if you have not visited the

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Speaker 1: United States and for October you can have a great time.

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Speaker 1: The I love that you're bringing up the Celtic origins

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Speaker 1: of sown here, and I love that we're we're talking

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Speaker 1: about this commonality cultures, especially in northern latitudes, because during

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Speaker 1: this time in autumn moving into winter, multiple cultures saw

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Speaker 1: what they interpreted as a ven diagram, the barrier between

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Speaker 1: the lands of the living and the lands of the dead.

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Speaker 1: It grows thin, right, and the idea is just like

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Speaker 1: a Voldrigis night. The concept is that demons, evil spirits,

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Speaker 1: those who have passed before us, they all can roam

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Speaker 1: the earth again for one night. And this reminds me

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Speaker 1: of that the obvious, in my opinion, the obvious best

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Speaker 1: part of Fantasia, which is.

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Speaker 2: Cherabog, you know, Mountain wakes. Yes, it's terrifying. It holds

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Speaker 2: up to this. It's really great.

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Speaker 1: And what's nuts about this I guess with the benefit

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Speaker 1: of wretch respect. Is the idea that people back in

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Speaker 1: the day would dress up as spirits, would put on

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Speaker 1: the countenance and costumes of demons as a defense mechanism,

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Speaker 1: such just in case, you know, you run into a

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Speaker 1: real life infernal spirit roaming the earth at night, they

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Speaker 1: will clock you know, your they will clock your animal

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Speaker 1: skins or your glued on horns, and they'll think, oh, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: he's cool, he's just he's out as well. For a second.

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Speaker 2: It's funny how in like zombie movie culture or you know,

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Speaker 2: the trope of zombie movies, something kind of evolved that's

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Speaker 2: been done to death now haha a little bit. But

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Speaker 2: the idea of pretending to be a zombie or covering

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Speaker 2: yourself in blood or gore so that you can walk

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Speaker 2: amongst them because somehow they know the difference between the

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Speaker 2: living and the dead and they won't come at you.

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Speaker 2: It's a good way of creating a diversion. Or I

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Speaker 2: actually watched Sean of the Dead recently, which absolutely holds

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Speaker 2: up as an excellent piece of filmmaking. Like it's just

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Speaker 2: the editing is great. Everything about it is fabulous. It

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Speaker 2: capitalizes on so many different tropes, but there's a scene

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Speaker 2: where they all pretend to be and they allows them

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Speaker 2: to move through the crowd of the zombie Horde.

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Speaker 1: And so from this the first, the first folks we

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Speaker 1: would call trick or treaters were kids in medieval Europe.

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Speaker 1: They were not super well to do, and they would

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Speaker 1: go door to door begging for food and money, not

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Speaker 1: for funzies, not necessarily with costumes, but because you know,

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Speaker 1: life kind of sucked for him and they had to

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Speaker 1: do their best to stay alive. And they realized that

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Speaker 1: if they went door to door during this Celtic holidays

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Speaker 1: Sowin on October thirty first, they would have a higher

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Speaker 1: rate of success asking for free stuff. And they would

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Speaker 1: Here's where the trigger treat thing comes in, the first

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Speaker 1: predecessor of the covenant, the exchange in exchange they would offer.

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Speaker 1: It would say, give us whatever you can and exchange,

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Speaker 1: we are going to pray for the souls of your

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Speaker 1: dearly departed. This tradition was called in a burst of

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Speaker 1: creativity solely l I G.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because a lot of this hinges on

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Speaker 2: a time where it is acceptable to knock on a

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Speaker 2: stranger's door and not be treated as a trespasser or

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Speaker 2: you know, something to be feared and potentially dealt with, right,

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Speaker 2: and that holds true to this day. Everyone knows that

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Speaker 2: on Halloween you're gonna have people knocking on your door.

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Speaker 2: And if you kill all the lights and don't have

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Speaker 2: candy out and are not participants, that's when you are

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Speaker 2: maybe more likely to get dealt with, you know, in

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Speaker 2: terms of like, ah, these old sour pusts, We're gonna

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Speaker 2: do them a dirty trick. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so if we haven't mentioned before, it's the night

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Speaker 1: before the Celtic New Year, So this is a momentous occasion.

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Speaker 1: Let's fast forward to the Middle Ages. If you look

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Speaker 1: at the Catholic Church, you will see this idea of

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Speaker 1: religious syncretism, which is the appropriation of previously existing spiritual

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Speaker 1: practices by a new school of metaphysical or religious thought.

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Speaker 1: We want to give a big shout out to Smithsonian magazine.

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Speaker 1: Rose Evelyth wrote this absolute awesome article called the History

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Speaker 1: of trick or Treating is Weirder than You thought? And

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Speaker 1: Rose one hundred percent agree. No notes. What they would

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Speaker 1: do is, in the Catholic tradition, they would take some

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Speaker 1: take another belief systems holidays and attempt to leverage it

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Speaker 1: as a way of proselytizing, of converting people to the

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Speaker 1: Catholic faith. So they saw this ancient holiday, of this

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Speaker 1: ancient process of swen and they said, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's also All hallows E, all Souls Day, all Saints Day,

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Speaker 1: and they for a time they had people dress up

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Speaker 1: as saints or angels, and then you know a few demons,

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Speaker 1: because every bit of theater needs a villain, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And once again we see religious fervor kind

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Speaker 2: of changing the narrative a little bit around some of

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Speaker 2: these holidays that are based around you know, pagan rituals,

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Speaker 2: where it's like, oh yeah, let's not do it that

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Speaker 2: way anymore. Let's try to change the themes so it's

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Speaker 2: a little more on brand with our vibe, right yeah.

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Speaker 1: And during this era we're still not quite to the

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Speaker 1: modern Halloween. During this era are trick or treaters who

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Speaker 1: went door to door exchanging prayers for food. They expanded

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Speaker 1: the brand a bit. Instead of just promising prayers, they

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Speaker 1: started also doing songs, even telling jokes, doing like a

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Speaker 1: tight three minutes and which wasn't that long before the

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Speaker 1: era of television, and they would maybe stage short performances

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Speaker 1: at the doorstep or at the entrance. This tradition still

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Speaker 1: exists in some ways. It was known as mumming m

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Speaker 1: U m m G. There's an interesting note we found

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Speaker 1: from Business Insider about how young women who are single

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Speaker 1: would also do a series of rituals on All Hallow's Eve,

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Speaker 1: with the idea being that they could divine the identity

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Speaker 1: of their future husbands and get married by the following year.

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Speaker 1: Because of course, if you're not buried by like sixteen,

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Speaker 1: you're a horrible person with a foot in the grave.

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Speaker 2: Now. I hope this isn't too controversial, but you know,

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Speaker 2: I think we're all suckers for some etemal. You know

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Speaker 2: the term that's used for sex workers turning tricks. I

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Speaker 2: kind of wonder if that isn't rooted in this, because

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Speaker 2: while they're not performing sex acts for money, there is

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of what's the word, kind of seduction involved,

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Speaker 2: or like kind of trying to ingratiate themselves to these

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Speaker 2: future husbands. Potentially, I just I do wonder maybe I'm

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Speaker 2: completely off.

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Speaker 1: Base there, there might be something to it. Etymology is

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Speaker 1: often muddy. Why I still have yet to create a

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Speaker 1: show just about etymology, like the source is tough, but

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Speaker 1: I believe it's early nineteen hundred's early twentieth century and

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Speaker 1: trick as a mischievous or naughty act for a sex worker.

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Speaker 2: At the time, the idea was that the trick was

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Speaker 2: a socially unapproved action. But again, it's still a covenant.

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Speaker 2: You know you're exchanging something.

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Speaker 1: And these if we go to the idea of if

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Speaker 1: we go to the idea that the young women on

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Speaker 1: all hallow z, what kind of divination were they practicing?

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Speaker 1: What kind of magic were they practicing? There were things

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Speaker 1: you similar to what you might have done in middle school.

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Speaker 1: If you watch something like The Craft, you might have

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Speaker 1: done like light as a feather, stiff as a board, uh,

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Speaker 1: played with a wija board. These tricks would for these

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Speaker 1: folks looking to figure out their future spouse. They involve

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Speaker 1: stuff like throwing apple peels, or you would crack eggs

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Speaker 1: into a bowl, kind of like reading tea leaves. When

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Speaker 1: you crack the eggs into the bowl, you look into

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Speaker 1: it like a rorshak image and you try to find

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Speaker 1: the initials of your future husband. There was even one

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Speaker 1: where you it's very bloody Mary or a candy man.

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Speaker 1: There is one where you go in a room with

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Speaker 1: just like one candle and you look in the mirror

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Speaker 1: and you hope to see in the mirror a vague

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Speaker 1: reflection of your future spouse's face.

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Speaker 2: Why is it, guy? Be so spooky? That sounds I

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Speaker 2: don't want to do that. That doesn't sound like it's

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Speaker 2: not romantic at all, I don't think. So you're gonna

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Speaker 2: be like horrified when you see that person in real life,

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Speaker 2: not to mention if it actually worked, you know, and

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Speaker 2: like who is that weird looking cat in the mirror?

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Speaker 2: You know, I just I don't know, I just what

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Speaker 2: if you don't like them? Yeah? You know, question what

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Speaker 2: if you don't like him? Was not really a question

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Speaker 2: of import back to those days in terms of marriages

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Speaker 2: going down.

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Speaker 1: You know, the court of the occult did not have

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Speaker 1: a mechanism for appeals of decisions, just apple peals. So

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Speaker 1: there's also to the trigger treaters. There were these people

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Speaker 1: who would dress in costume and then they would perform dances,

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Speaker 1: and the idea of the dances was that it was

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Speaker 1: a it's like a public service. You're scaring off the

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Speaker 1: demons and in exchange, you receive food and drink, and that,

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Speaker 1: as far as we can tell, is the rough origin

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Speaker 1: of when the trick part of the trick or treat

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Speaker 1: was bored, and there's all sorts of other stuff there.

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Speaker 1: You know, you would get specific food if you were

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Speaker 1: going door to if you were a door to door

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Speaker 1: prayer sales person, you would get soul cakes, specific kind

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Speaker 1: of pastry, which again, to your point, reminds me of

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Speaker 1: the reminds me of the practice of feeding hungry ghost

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Speaker 1: in Asia.

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Speaker 2: Or like the sugar skulls involved with Day of the

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Speaker 2: Dead celebrations going now in Latin America. And I believe

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Speaker 2: maybe they're they're they're they're a little different. But hot

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Speaker 2: Cross buns they have like this X on them, and

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Speaker 2: the soul cakes also have that X on them, So

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Speaker 2: I think that is meant to be like a It's

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Speaker 2: almost like a form of the Eucharists in a weird way,

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Speaker 2: like maybe not exactly, but there is a certain body

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Speaker 2: of Christ aspect to it, at least it feels like

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some branding for sure, soul cakes and Hot

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Speaker 1: Cross buns. That's a great comparison. Soul cakes were they

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Speaker 1: contained you need to still find versions of them today.

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Speaker 1: They contain nutmeg, ginger, cinnamon, and raisins, which were very good,

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Speaker 1: very hot at that point, and because you know, dried

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Speaker 1: candy fruit before the rise of sugar beets and cane sugar,

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Speaker 1: that was one of the sweetest things people could eat.

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Speaker 1: The cross at the top of both of those pastries

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Speaker 1: or confections symbolizes a soul being saved from purgatory. The

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Speaker 1: earliest soul cakes were placed outside of homes like a

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Speaker 1: ring or a nest camera because the idea was this

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Speaker 1: will prevent these mischievous spirits from playing tricks on us,

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Speaker 1: But eventually they just made them for the trick or treaters.

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Speaker 2: So the tricks originally were like the mischief was from

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Speaker 2: mischievous goblin types, right, and then like a lot of

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Speaker 2: the trick or treating kind of like you know, was

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Speaker 2: almost meant to like we're gonna make you think that

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Speaker 2: we are are the demons, right again, it's not specifically,

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Speaker 2: but over time it evolves, and I think that's part

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Speaker 2: of the impetus, where it's like we are pretending to

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Speaker 2: do the same things that the mischievous spirits would be doing.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps, yeah, Yeah, that is the evolution, and he yieled

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Speaker 1: it because it starts with infernal powers doing serious damage.

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Speaker 1: Then it goes to like little rascals from the unseen realm,

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Speaker 1: you know, brownies and things like that, and then it

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Speaker 1: evolves to these people doing some sort of defensive service,

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Speaker 1: and then it becomes cosplay. Then it becomes tradition. It's

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds, not until then that folks start

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Speaker 1: offering treats to trigger treaters. And usually these obviously it's

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Speaker 1: not like a Snickers.

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Speaker 2: Bar or quote unquote treats.

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00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: It's like nuts and fruits. And if you don't care

433
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: for raisins like we do, you would be disappointed for

434
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: several hundred years. They also just gave you apples, no caramel,

435
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: just like, here's an apple.

436
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 2: This is the kind of stuff that'll get your house

437
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: rolled instantly these days. Yeah, the old man Wilson gives

438
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: out apples like he's like the neighborhood dentists like, nah, man,

439
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 2: that's not how we play.

440
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:37,959
Speaker 1: So one example, our modern growing up, our modern controversial family.

441
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: In one of my neighborhoods, they got in trouble because

442
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: they gave out lottery tickets and packs of cigarettes to children.

443
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: Candy cigarettes just no, I think just regular cigarettes because

444
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: they were having a crazy party and looking back, I

445
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: think they were probably drinking and doing some other stuff.

446
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: It probably want swingers too. One of those lottery tickets.

447
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: I won two hundred bucks off of it. It was

448
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: a little scratch off ticket. So happy Halloween.

449
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

450
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: So the idea of giving apples or dried fruits starts

451
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: with another festival, not Celtic, but Roman, the festival of Pomona,

452
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: which in that civilization occurred during harvest, and Pomona is

453
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: named after the goddess of fruitful abundance that took place

454
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: on November first. But you know what's a little timeline

455
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: discrepancy between friends.

456
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Apples have often been associated with plentiful nests, you know,

457
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: the cornucopia overflowing harvest kind of, and also, of course,

458
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: because of their shape and color, I imagine a symbol

459
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: of love and therefore fertility. And again we see a

460
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: lot of these things carry over into more kind of

461
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: sanitized versions in modern day. We see bobby for apples

462
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: or caramelized apples. Yeah.

463
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: Man, that's where it comes from, which I love that

464
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: we have an explanation for that, because even as a kid,

465
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: that's sort of weird, right, like, hey, let me waterboard

466
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: myself for an apple.

467
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't think that's bad. People still do that.

468
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: It seems like it's like gone the way of lawn

469
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 2: darts to a certain degree.

470
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: People still do it, particularly in my experience, particularly in

471
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: Christian youth groups. That's where I see it most often.

472
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: That's where you have like the hay ride bobbing for apples.

473
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: Let's make this thing wholesome and less associated with the demonic.

474
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: There's also a kind of relationship or similarities at least

475
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: between Tricker Treating and Guy Fox Night aka Bonfire Night

476
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: aka the loose mcguffin plot device of VV for vendet.

477
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: Remember remember the what is it of September? The fifth

478
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: of November? November. That's of course it wouldn't be September,

479
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: because it's got to be around spooky season. Yeah, and

480
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: that's you know, the mask, the famous Guy Fox mask

481
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: is largely I think the centerpiece of what we're talking

482
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: about on this night in question. There was a very

483
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: successful foiling of what's known as the Gunpowder plot in

484
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 2: sixteen oh five, and this was a plot to I

485
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: believe what blow up parliament?

486
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Guy FOWX big fan of the Catholic faith,

487
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: hated Protestants. His idea was a little bit Rube Goldberg esque.

488
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: He thought, if I blow up the Parliament building, King

489
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: James the First will be removed from power, and then

490
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: naturally everybody in the land will agree with me that

491
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: Catholicism is cool.

492
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: Nope. That's why sometimes revolutionary acts like this are sort

493
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: of a little sad in retrospect, because so many people

494
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: get hurt and then they just replace them monarch.

495
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: It's like, let us terrorize people into a green with us,

496
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: you know.

497
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: And so on this night, which again commemorates this this event,

498
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: British children wear or war masks and carry effigies of

499
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: Guy Fox, and the masks themselves are basically effigies. Uh.

500
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: And they beg for pennies, which is that just seems sad,

501
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: like like his whole deal didn't work. Why are they

502
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: begging for pennies A penny?

503
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: Uh, you know, we don't inflation calculate on this one,

504
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: but a penny worth more?

505
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you could buy it was actual precious metal,

506
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: you know, right.

507
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: And the Guy Fox day the celebration of it begins

508
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: pretty much right after Guy Fox is executed, and they

509
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: started making these bonfires and they lit effigies and that. Yeah,

510
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: and they called them own fires too, because the idea

511
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: was that they were burning the Catholic pope, very very

512
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: nasty stuff. And then by the early eighteen hundreds, these

513
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: kids would roam around the streets of England and they

514
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: would have effigies a Guy Fox and they would go

515
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: to door to door asking, quote, for a penny for

516
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: the guy.

517
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: Hey, can you get a penny for your guy? Here?

518
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: Can my guy get a penny?

519
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: Let me get a penny?

520
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: Let me get a penny for the guy.

521
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 2: So moving on trick or treating, which is you know

522
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: this it wasn't I want to know more when it

523
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: was called that? Like do we have that because none

524
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: of these these historical accounts quite you know, go all

525
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: the way into trick or treat, right, it's.

526
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: Pretty murky, Yeah, it's pretty murky. We can find competing

527
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: sources for the first time the phrase is in print,

528
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: but we know that the act of asking for candy

529
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: it was around and wasn't always tied to Halloween during

530
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds, the mid nineteen hundreds, especially in

531
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: New York New York City, excuse me, sorry, Watertown. Kids

532
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: dressed up and they went looking for treats the same

533
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: way they do today. But they did it on Thanksgiving,

534
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: which is weird. How many turkey costumes were there? When

535
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: did turkey become the Thanksgiving thing? Well that's a story

536
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: for another all right, I'm putting it on the list.

537
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: I did find a reference to nineteen twenty seven and Canada,

538
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: which is when trigg or treat first started being a

539
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: thing verbally spoken. So good job to our neighbors to

540
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: the north for like coining the thing that we think

541
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 2: we invented.

542
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: Good hustle, guys, don't worry, we'll take more of your stuff.

543
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: Later in eighteen sixty three, our old buddy, famous trash

544
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: talk and amateur wrestler, also known for a couple of

545
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: other things.

546
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: Good reach out.

547
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Abraham Lincoln. He's the one who said, all right, Thanksgiving,

548
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a holiday throughout all of these United States,

549
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: which means kids get a day off from school and

550
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: children can just run wild. So go to New York

551
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: in the eighteen seventies, New York City, Sorry, Buffalo some

552
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: kids decided it would be massive fun to cause play

553
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: as homeless people.

554
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: Which is so messed up considering what we've talked about

555
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 2: in terms of how originally this was actual facts. You know,

556
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: poor destitute British children exchanging a prayer, which is I

557
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: guess as where living on a prayer came from the

558
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: idea of like, that's all I've got to offer you

559
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: is my prayers, you know, for like some food, not

560
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 2: for funsies, but like for survival. So leave it to

561
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: the United States to take something that was once a

562
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: very real, you know, situation involving danger and kids living

563
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 2: on the street and turn it into sort of like

564
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: a cosplay, like you said, where these kids in the

565
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: eighteen seventies are dressing up in shabby, oversized clothes, probably

566
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: blacking their noses and cheeks with a burnt cork, you know,

567
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: carrying around a bindle like all of the kind of

568
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 2: you know, pick your poison like cliche images of unhoused

569
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 2: people throughout the years, and then they would get into

570
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: what could really just be described as trouble mischief, okay,

571
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,959
Speaker 2: and it became as known as I love this word,

572
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: by the way, it became known eventually as ragamuffin day,

573
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: ah ragamuffin and ne'er do wells and scamps, the whole

574
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: pantheon of poorly behaved children. I once called my ex

575
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: wife's niece a ragamuffin, and she took great issue with

576
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: that word. Triggered her. She was like, what is that?

577
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 2: That sounds like the worst thing that ever could be.

578
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: Don't you dare call me that again? Uncle Noel, or

579
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: I will end you. How old I think she was,

580
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: about six? Maybe just dismissed. You're in the clear, fair enough,

581
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: fair enough the statute of limitations as best. I think

582
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 2: she's probably forgotten all about it. We'll see, we'll see.

583
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: And with this idea, this ragamuffin day, these kids sewing

584
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: chaos there became increasingly creative disguises because on some level

585
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: these kids don't want to get in trouble and cries

586
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: right right in the commission of crimes. So right before

587
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: the turn of the century, late eighteen hundreds, we see

588
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: that around. There's one article in PR quoted from eighteen

589
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: ninety seven, and it says the Thanksgiving is quote the

590
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: busiest time yeah for the manufacturers and dealers in mask

591
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 1: and false faces.

592
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 4: The fantastical costume parades and the old custom of making

593
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 4: and dressing up for amusement on Thanksgiving Day keep up

594
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 4: from yeah to yeah in many parts of the country,

595
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 4: so that the quantity of false faces sold the season

596
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 4: is enormous false faces.

597
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 2: What you've just described there, though, is the realization of

598
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: the commercialization of all of the history stuff that we've

599
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: been talking about.

600
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: Just so, and if you were to ask me before this, Ben,

601
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: where does trigger treating come from? Where does the beautiful

602
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: Halloween costume tradition come from? I totally would have missed Thanksgiving.

603
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. And you guys, have you seen images

604
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: like on social media of like the costumes from the

605
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: thirties and stuff like earlier before like mass produced costumes

606
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: became a thing. They're horrifying turnups instead of pumpkins for

607
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: jack a ladder. But just like the faces, they're like

608
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: burlap sacks with a piece of twine wrapped around the neck,

609
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, just and like weird gouged rough

610
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 2: holes cut in the eyes and mouths, like like something

611
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: like with the scarecrow would wear in Batman movie. You know,

612
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really scary stuff.

613
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: Like the old michelin man, Oh, just like that distressing,

614
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: and then pretty much any pre nineteen fifties easter Buddy

615
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: cost us also hor horrific. So people are fighting against it, right,

616
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: the kids rebel and the authorities are squares, same as

617
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 1: it ever was, same as it ever was. There's a

618
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: school superintendent named William J. O'Shea, and he our buddy

619
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: Willie tells all his superintendent goons that modernity is incompatible

620
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: with children masquerading and annoying adults by asking for gifts

621
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: and money. And then other organizations say they're making fun

622
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: of the poor.

623
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: He well, I would argue that there is some truth

624
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 2: to that making fun of the poor part. But this

625
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 2: is also like this guy ended up on the wrong

626
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: side of history. He's like William O'Shea, the guy that

627
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 2: tried to murder Halloween. You know. But at the time,

628
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: though I don't completely disagree with them, I think, you know,

629
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: the whole Ragamuffin Day thing is a little offensive, you know,

630
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: to people, especially when we're approaching the Great Depression, when

631
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: this stuff was nothing to sneeze at. You know, this

632
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: this level of like, you know, poverty and to even

633
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: be able to afford to masquerade as a poor person.

634
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: You probably weren't a poor person. You were probably coming

635
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: from an upper middle class. Well, I guess middle class

636
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: didn't really exist quite yet. It was more just upper class.

637
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: And now it's I love pointing out the Great Depression.

638
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: Now it's no longer funny satire. If satire's done well,

639
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: has to come from a place of affection. That's what

640
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: makes the mockery work. When punching down right, when millions

641
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: of people are starving, unemployed, dying in the streets, then

642
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: dressing up as victims of what, even at that stage

643
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: was late stage capitalism, that becomes a totally different calculation.

644
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: So Ragamuffin Day falls out of favor, but as it falls,

645
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: a new thing rises. We reached the inflection point of Halloween.

646
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: And it's entirely because some American colonists we're familiar with

647
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: practicing sown traditions and guy fallowies all hallows, all saints,

648
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: all souls, all the things, and so they brought that

649
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: culture with them. By the mid eighteen hundreds, I want

650
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: to say, especially with the influx of Irish immigrants fleeing

651
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: the Potato famine, Halloween became a thing and in the process,

652
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: it became thoroughly American.

653
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, you know, the sort of I

654
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 2: guess sanitization or organization of trick or treating and Halloween

655
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 2: largely stemmed from the fact that the early kind of

656
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: unchecked version of this, when things were a little more

657
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 2: wild West again because of the Great Depression and a

658
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 2: lot of like a huge gulf between the haves and

659
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 2: the have nots, there were a lot of acts of violence,

660
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: you know, setting fires, assaulting people because there was a

661
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 2: real sense of like, I don't know, resentment kind of

662
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: just like festering in this country. And so in order

663
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: to kind of stem that, one theory says that the

664
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 2: widespread adoption of a more community based, kind of family

665
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 2: friendly trick or treating tradition in the thirties was really

666
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 2: crucial to kind of cutting down on some of this

667
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 2: more you know, mischievous Dare I say criminal acts?

668
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 3: M m.

669
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Let's get these rowdy kids under control. You know,

670
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about stuff like the origin of Devil's Night

671
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: in Detroit, which is the crow.

672
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: Maybe that's what I always think of.

673
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: And it's also it's an escalation of that. Instead of

674
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 1: toilet papering someone's house, or putting a bunch of forks

675
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: in their yard or throwing eggs out there at the siding. Instead,

676
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: we're talking physical assaults or setting the whole house fire, vandalism,

677
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 1: acts of violence. And the weird thing is that if

678
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: you look at stuff like Miriam Webster, you'll see etomologists

679
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: like Barry Popik Popik who suggests that trick or treat does,

680
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, go back to the nineteen twenties when

681
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: Canadian newspapers use variations of the term. I think it

682
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: was November nineteen twenty three the Saskatchewan Leader Post said

683
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: that fighting against this idea of child led violence, they said, treats,

684
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: not tricks, are the order of the evening, Hugs not drugs.

685
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a November nineteen twenty four article published

686
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: in Alberta's Red Deer Advocate, which is such a Canadian

687
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: name for a newspaper, that had this to say. And

688
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: by the way, Halloween in a lot of these printings

689
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 2: is spelled ha llowe apostrophe e n, which seems very

690
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: Canterbury Tales to me for some reason. But this is

691
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 2: what the Red Deer Advocate had to say. Halloween night

692
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: was observed in the usual manner by the young bloods

693
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: in Penhold. Fun is fun and tricks are tricks. But

694
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: when such public buildings as school and Memorial Hall are

695
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: molested with no opinion for trick or treat, we cannot

696
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: see where either fun or trick is enjoyed by the participants.

697
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: Speaking of Hannterbury Tales talk, this is a little You

698
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 2: gotta run this through a couple of filters to unpack

699
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 2: what they're even talking about here. Help us out, Ben,

700
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

701
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: The idea here is that. The idea here is that

702
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: picture the Transatlantic voice. When you hear this, it's written

703
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: with a bit of a high faluting tone. But they're saying, ultimately,

704
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: this is not good for anyone. Order must be maintained.

705
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: These scamps, these ragamuffins, these nahd wells. If you look

706
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: south across the border in the United States, the first

707
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: printed example of the phrase goes to nineteen twenty eight.

708
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: Michigan's Bay City Times talks about tricks or treats and

709
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: they call it the fatal ultimatum. So metal you know

710
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: what I mean, Finisher bump.

711
00:44:54,560 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: Them jock Jams version of Mortal Kombat. There's a really

712
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 2: great quote here. Also, by the way, the fact that

713
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 2: you mentioned this is very interesting. Nineteen twenty eight in

714
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: Michigan Devil's Night obviously Detroit, Michigan, so that part of

715
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: our country, which is also really close to Canada. By

716
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: the way, Detroit makes sense that it would kind of

717
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 2: filter down to there, and the Devil's Night would be

718
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: such a uniquely Detroit kind of thing. Again, I may

719
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: not be completely on base with that, but there's an

720
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: excellent quote from that Bay City Times article you mentioned,

721
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 2: referring to let's see it is a phrase, a dreaded

722
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: utterance by quote some small child who clutched in one

723
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 2: grubby fist, a small chunk of soap capable of eliminating

724
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: the transparency from any number of windows or mischief? What

725
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 2: key the out of sides?

726
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 4: What's indoors or outdoors?

727
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: Jeez mayhem?

728
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely chaos, pandemonium, cats and dogs.

729
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: They saying this with tongue in cheek. They're not.

730
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: They were very mad about it.

731
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 2: Really, Yeah, are you serious? I really can't tell if

732
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: you're being serious or not.

733
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,720
Speaker 1: I am being serious. They were upset.

734
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 2: How dare they eliminate the transparency of our windows.

735
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: Like a penny a window was a bigger deal back

736
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: in the day.

737
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: That's a good point. Yeah.

738
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: In the nineteen twenties, this idea of souling right, of

739
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: advocating for the dead loved ones right, it was replaced

740
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: with prankie as the Great Depression hit, as socio economic

741
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: problems got turned up to eleven, the Shenanigans got worse,

742
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: I would argue, because they became a socio economic vent,

743
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: an escape hatch for all these pent up aggressions, absssions, resentiments,

744
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 1: you know, traumatic experiences, and that's where we see the

745
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: cars getting overturned, the houses getting be in need broken

746
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: and entered, and even harassment physical assault. Fast forward today,

747
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: why is that not happening. It's because parents and community

748
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: leaders got together and said, we need to pivot, we

749
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: need to steer the ship in a different direction. Let's

750
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: try to make some wholesome iterations of these traditions, because

751
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: otherwise we're doing the purge once a year.

752
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. But also, the purge is an interesting

753
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: concept in the movies for a reason because in that

754
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 2: society that exists in the purge, we're not saying all

755
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: of them are good, and maybe even the first one

756
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: is not good. But the concept's interesting is that, like

757
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 2: in order to it's an acceptance of this primal urge

758
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: in human beings to absolutely f stuff up and to

759
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: just act out on their most you know, animalistic kind

760
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: of impulses. And that is sort of what Halloween became

761
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: in a certain sense before it was sort of sanitized.

762
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 2: Is like, you know, whether it's let your freak flag

763
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: fly dressed in a crazy costume or like burn an

764
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 2: abandoned car. It did involve this one night where we

765
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: could run with the demons, we could run with the

766
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 2: ghouls and be part of that cliqu and let out

767
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 2: a lot of those things that will allow us to

768
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: every other day of the year live like good civilized Christians. Yeah,

769
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: I think you've outlined it well. I think I am

770
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: not alone and saying that is morally bankrupt and a

771
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 2: very it's an evil thing.

772
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: But this idea of turn of pivoting towards something more wholesome.

773
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 1: This brought communities together and they would say, well, we're

774
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: not going to just let our kids and maybe criminals

775
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 1: run the streets. We're gonna get together at the community center,

776
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: you know, the church, the local Elks club, lab parades,

777
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: and the parades from the twenties turn into the nineteen fifties.

778
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: But here, Casey Noel Fellow, ridiculous historians. Here, towards the

779
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: end of tonight's show, we can tell you the origin

780
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: of the phrase, not tricks or treaty, not trick or treating,

781
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: but the freeze.

782
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 2: Trick or treat.

783
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: It does have dashes, It does have a discernible origin.

784
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: It becomes a catchphrase thanks to Charlie Brown and Charles Schultz,

785
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: the peanut Gey, the Great Pumpkin.

786
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: I think Charlie Brown is so cool. I think Charlie

787
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: Brown is the like mainstreaming of sarcasm in so many ways.

788
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 2: Those characters were so they're like jaded, weird little children

789
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 2: that are like no way too much.

790
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: And also a normalized male pattern baldness for four year olds.

791
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and therapy, you know with like was it Lucy No,

792
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: which one is the one that always pulls the football

793
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 2: away from Charlie. I think it's Lucy. It's Lucy. And

794
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 2: she always had the little lemonade stand that was like

795
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: therapy for like fifty cents or whatever. In my gosh,

796
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 2: that probably was like one hundred dollars back then, But yeah,

797
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 2: it was in a comic strip, because before we even

798
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 2: had the animated version of Peanuts, we had these comic

799
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 2: strips in the early fifties. You're right, that phrase appeared

800
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 2: in those. So the next time you watch It's the

801
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown, you do need to sometimes take

802
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 2: stock of what is as modern ish as that stuff

803
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: seems even today, that stuff was a historical hallmark in

804
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: so many ways, you know, just like Doctor Seuss in

805
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 2: certain phrases and words that were coined, Like a lot

806
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 2: of these things that we take for granted as because

807
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: again they've been so sanitized and mass produced and commercialized,

808
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: we don't remember that a lot of these pieces of

809
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: pop culture actually steered the history of this country and

810
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 2: of like the way we think about these kinds of things.

811
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so this practice, it ebbs and flows. It

812
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: encounters a difficult time during World War two, due to

813
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 1: you know, the World War and due to sugar rationing,

814
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 1: the rationing of everything, no more sweets, no more sweets,

815
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: and at the at the height of the post World

816
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: War two economic boom, right, the origin of the what

817
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 1: we call the baby boomers trig or treating is cool again,

818
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: and then millions of kids and families buy in, especially

819
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 1: because there are suburbs built everywhere, right, and these are

820
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: just hou housing neighborhoods. You can walk for miles and

821
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: see nothing but residential stuff. And candy companies get in

822
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: on this because sugar rationing is gone, and they start saying, hey,

823
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: let's normalize buying a ton of candy every year. Today,

824
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: the United States spends an estimated three point one billion

825
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 1: dollars on candy during Halloween alone.

826
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 2: Dude, I went to Bert's Pumpkin Patch week or so ago,

827
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: which is this place like north of here in Atlanta

828
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 2: and the kind of North Georgia Mountains adjacent kind of area,

829
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 2: and I spent seventy five dollars or more on pumpkins.

830
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 2: I'd never done that before. But I'd also never been

831
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: to the pumpkin patch. And to a previous point you

832
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: made about like the sort of like community, sort of

833
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 2: like let's take the evil out of Halloween. This I

834
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 2: went on my first hay ride. And on this hay ride,

835
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 2: I think we actually talked about this in a previous episode,

836
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 2: but you passed this part where there are these like

837
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 2: really rudimentary animatronic pumpkins that give you a little lesson

838
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 2: on the scripture real quick. And I thought that was

839
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 2: charming and a little weird.

840
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: Twisted, right, Dylan Dylan said when he went there too,

841
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 1: And yeah, and it's nuts because look, has it been commercialized?

842
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 2: Yes?

843
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: Has it been monetized? Absolutely? Is there a bit of

844
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: appropriation inherent in it?

845
00:52:59,239 --> 00:52:59,919
Speaker 2: Arguably?

846
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: But is it still awesome? One hundred percent. And that's

847
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 1: where we end the episode. Tonight, go forth, ye, creatures

848
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: of the Evening, have a great time, save some souls.

849
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: I think we're legally bound to tell you not to

850
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 1: commit dangerous pranks.

851
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't do that. You could get in trouble.

852
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: We are officially required to tell you it is not

853
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: super duper easy to get away with.

854
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 2: A lot of that. Yeah. We are also super legally

855
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: required to tell you that the Anarchist Cookbook is not

856
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 2: available in PDF format on the open Internet.

857
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: It is super not easy to find it wherever you look.

858
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: And you know what, though, with those I love that

859
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: we did it that way, with those caveats aside, we

860
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: as we get to the end of the year, we

861
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: just want to thank everybody so much for tuning in

862
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: the show only happens because you're here, and we owe

863
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 1: a big, big thanks to mister Max Williams to miss

864
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 1: your casey, pegram Casey, are you taking a you're doing

865
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: a trick or treat thing.

866
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 3: We're gonna try it. This will be the first year

867
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 3: with my son trigger treating and we're gonna we're gonna

868
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 3: dip our toes in the pond. Because he's a little uh,

869
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 3: he's very independent minded. He doesn't necessarily stop when you're

870
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 3: tell him to.

871
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: He's just gonna go running off, setting houses on fire

872
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: and stuff. What is he like to two and a

873
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 2: half ish?

874
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 3: Two and a half?

875
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, what kind of costume we haven't We

876
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: haven't gotten you yet. Little kids do really well in

877
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: chucky costumes. Just putting that out there because because of

878
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,439
Speaker 2: their stature, that's a good joke.

879
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: Also great pumpkin. I think a lot of kids in

880
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: the United States, one of their first Halloween costumes, especially

881
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: when they're still infants and a bit rotund, they often

882
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 1: gets as French chefs.

883
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 3: Ooh, I like that.

884
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 2: I ever heard of that in my life. But I

885
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: don't know if I bost you, but I do like fully

886
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: you like that, you know, really quickly before we wrap

887
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: it up. Do each of you have a favorite Halloween

888
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 2: Tree Edition movie that you enjoy watching. I'm a big

889
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 2: fan of Halloween is Grinch Night, the psychedelically weird Doctor

890
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 2: Seuss Grinch Short.

891
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: I guess something wicked this way comes. I've got a

892
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:18,240
Speaker 1: lot of hocus pocus just for the fun. Of course,

893
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: you like Carnival of Souls a lot. You always talk

894
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: about that.

895
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh man, Carnival of Souls is like so amazing.

896
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 5: I mean it's also not because it's also, like, you know,

897
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 5: not a very well made movie. But I don't know,

898
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 5: I have that look like Ben I had that like

899
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 5: deep love and appreciation for it as well. So and actually,

900
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 5: if you want to learn more about Carnival Souls, check

901
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 5: out the ephemeral episode titled HERK Harvey, where we dive

902
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 5: into the movie's director and the fact that he wasn't

903
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 5: you know, a guy who made feature films. Carnival Souls

904
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 5: is literally his only credit in that way.

905
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 1: Also, you know The Exorcist, I got a whole playlist.

906
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 4: I'm deep on that.

907
00:55:58,040 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 2: How about you.

908
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 3: Pegrim gotta go with the shining you know, it's the

909
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 3: classic scene. It a million times and to me, nothing

910
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 3: better every tall.

911
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: More than that movie. Yeah. Do you think those takes

912
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 2: that Shelley Devaal did got better every time? All seven

913
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 2: of them? They just slowly drove her mad. I feel

914
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,800
Speaker 2: like there's a sleeper in those takes.

915
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 3: That no number like seventy seven was the one, you know, yeah, yeah, right,

916
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:29,280
Speaker 3: are those archives somewhere, Casey, all those unused takes probably

917
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 3: the film probably they were, they were they were looking

918
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 3: to reuse the silver from the film. I think, I think, yeah,

919
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 3: I think Cupick probably destroyed all.

920
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 2: The excess footage.

921
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: I remember seeing an interview about that where someone asked

922
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 1: him that very question. But also, Shelley Duvall got robbed

923
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 1: because she was given a Razzie award. That's right for

924
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: that performance, which is egregious.

925
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,280
Speaker 2: It's a genius. It's fabulous. Also, that's bulls.

926
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: Check out our pals uh Jack of Miles over the

927
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 1: Day a Zeitgeist if you want to learn why the

928
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: Razzies are just a garbage fire.

929
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 2: It's not good.

930
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,720
Speaker 3: They did. They retroactively retracted that Razzie for Chilly Devall.

931
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 3: But they did it like a few years ago. You know,

932
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 3: it stood for like thirty something years.

933
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 2: It's like Pitchfork reevaluating their review of Daft Punk Discovery, pretting.

934
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: It huh, but better late than never. As cheech Marin

935
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: said in Ghostbusters two, when the Titanic arrives, Ghostbusters do

936
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: another cool holiday film. I think a big, big thanks

937
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: of course to mister Alex Williams composing this slap and

938
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: bop you hear at the very end. Who else know

939
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: who else?

940
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 2: Oh well, speaking of Alex Williams, please check out if

941
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 2: you're into something spooky, The Thirteen Days of Halloween from

942
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 2: Aaron Mankey, that at this point should be well into

943
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 2: its thirteen episode run. There's also I believe three or four,

944
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 2: maybe three seasons of it to enjoy. It's like for

945
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: the Yaml del Toro's Cabinet of Curiosity and audio form.

946
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: It's really immersive, really really cool, and highly recommend that

947
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 2: you give it a listen. Also huge thanks to Eves,

948
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 2: Jeff Coat, Christopher hasiotis here in Spooky Spirit.

949
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: Research associate Jeff Bartlett, our pal Gabe Lucier, and of

950
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 1: course the Man who Must probably needs no introduction, the

951
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: man known for always dressing in a gruesome costume. I

952
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: can only assume regardless of what day of the year.

953
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 1: It is Jonathan Strickland aka the Quizz.

954
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 2: That is a costume, right, Yeah, it's a really successful

955
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 2: balt cat.

956
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 1: I've never asked them. I don't know how I ask

957
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: people that, and of course I think touch it. Thanks

958
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: to you go in Casey, Happy Halloween you as well.

959
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: Ben. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts

960
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

961
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.