1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. The ss Arctic sank on September twenty seventh, 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four, or one hundred and seventy one years 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: ago today on the day this episode is coming out. 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: Our episode on this disaster is Today's Saturday Classic. 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: Please excuse our pronouncing the word Newfoundland the way we 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: were taught to pronounce it in school, which is also 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: how it's listed as pronounced in American English dictionaries, rather 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: than the way many Canadians have told us that it 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 2: ought to be pronounced. This episode originally came out on 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: January fifteenth, twenty fourteen. Enjoy Welcome to Stuff You Missed 11 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 2: in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio. 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fryed, I'm 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Tracy V. Wilson. 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: And if there's a thing we get lots of requests for, 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: it is more maritime and ship yep. So we're going 16 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: to head back to the ocean today. And this particular 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: incident is often held in a particularly tragic light because 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: it seems that in the sinking of this ship, which 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,919 Speaker 2: was the ss Arctic, the what we now today perceive 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: as a rule of women and children first, and. 21 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: The captain goes down to this ship. Those things did 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: not hold true. None of the women or children aboard 23 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: the vessel survived the sinking spoiler alert. And the captain 24 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: did survive, even though he. 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: Did not expect to. Yeah, he did not abandon ship, 26 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: but he did survive the ordeal. Yeah, we'll also talk 27 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: about this whole women and children first idea. Yeah, end 28 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: of the episode. Yeah, once we have all this context 29 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 2: under our belts. Yeah, there's some cool modern statistical analysis 30 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 2: that's been done as well as some research on sort 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: of where that concept came from, and it puts things 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: in an interesting light I think when we talk about shipwrecks. Yeah, 33 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: so we're gonna start was talking about the SS Arctic 34 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: and it was completed in eighteen fifty and by every account, 35 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: it was a really glorious ship. She was the third 36 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: of four Atlantic steamers and the Colins Fleet, and they 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: were recognized as just the finest of their time when 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 2: they were introduced. The other ships were the Atlantic, the Pacific, 39 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: and the Baltic. 40 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: And the Pride of the Collins Line of New York, 41 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: which was founded by Edward Knightcollins. The Arctic was a 42 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: wooden hull paddelwheel steamer that was designed to carry both 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,279 Speaker 1: cargo a small amount and up to two hundred passengers, 44 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: although the passenger space was expanded to accommodate two hundred 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: and eighty passengers in eighteen fifty one. And it was 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: two hundred and eighty five feet long, which is about 47 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: eighty seven meters, and it weighed in at two eight 48 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty six tons. 49 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: Although it launched on January twenty first, eighteen fifty its 50 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: maiden voyage didn't happen until October twenty seventh of that year. 51 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: And like her three sister ships, the Arctic could maintain 52 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: a speed of twelve knot, which was really fast for 53 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: the time, and in February of eighteen fifty two, the 54 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: Arctic set a record for the fastest eastbound crossing of 55 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: the Atlantic, hitting a speed of more than thirteen knots 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: and sustaining it for a while. When the Arctic started 57 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: its career, it was part of a lucrative contract that 58 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: the Collins Line had with the United States Government to 59 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: be a mail runner between America and Great Britain, and 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: in addition to their income from mail service, they competed 61 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: with the well established Canard line, which came out of 62 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: Britain for passenger service. Yeah, and initially the Colins line 63 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: did very well against Kinnard. Their ships were really big 64 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: and beautiful, they were brand new. They could run several 65 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: knots faster than the Cunard fleet. But the cost of 66 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: ongoing maintenance of this advanced machinery that was in the 67 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: Colin ships did draw off some of their competitive edge 68 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: and sometimes it would put their ships out of rotation 69 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: while they were being serviced. So when you see sort 70 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: of a business analysis of the situation, it's Collins arrived 71 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: on the scene and initially stole a lot of business 72 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: from Kunard, and then it kind of leveled out as 73 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: it became apparent that, you know, they couldn't always be 74 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: running all of the ships, and it did cost a lot, 75 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: so their initial wide profit margin shrank a little bit 76 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: as it had to be allocated into just maintaining the fleet. 77 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: On Wednesday, September twentieth, eighteen fifty four, the SS Arctic 78 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: departed from Liverpool on what would it be its last voyage. 79 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: On board were two hundred and thirty three passengers and 80 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty or so crew members. The captain 81 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 2: was James C. Loose and on September twenty seventh, so 82 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: a week into the voyage, the ship entered into a 83 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: thick fog while it was approaching the Grand Banks, which 84 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: is southeast of Newfoundland, Canada. Also in the fog was 85 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 2: the French vessel Vesta, which was headed for grand Ville, France. 86 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: When the Vesta was spotted, they sounded the alarm, but 87 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 2: both ships traveling at full speed and it was just 88 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: too late. 89 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: A collision was unavoidable at that point. And while it 90 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,119 Speaker 1: may sound incredibly reckless for a ship to be running 91 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: a head full in dicey visibility, it was actually policy 92 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: at this time in the Collins line to run through 93 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: a fog as quickly as possible so that they could 94 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: clear the visual obstruction in the shortest possible time. Yes, 95 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: this policy was as unwise as it sounds, though it 96 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: was not uncommon for ships to do this at the 97 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: time because the Vesta was doing a similar thing. So 98 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: I feel like it's important to mention that this was 99 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: not a poor judgment call on the captain's part. That 100 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: was just standard operating procedure right to get into fog 101 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: and gun it. It does in sort of a Hindenburg 102 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: kind of a situation. Yeah, in hindsight, what a poor idea. 103 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: Both of the ships were damaged in the collision, and 104 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: initially it was believed that the Vesta, in spite of 105 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: having this eye iron hull, had been damaged much worse. 106 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: This belief was so pervasive that the passengers and the 107 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: crew of the Vesta started traveling to the Arctic. But 108 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: it became quickly apparent that the Arctic was sinking and 109 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: was not going to help anybody in the situation, and 110 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: the Arctic's wooden hull had been basically annihilated by the 111 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: iron hull of the Vesta. There were multiple holes, and 112 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: the ship quickly took on water, and the speed of 113 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: the ocean rushing in through these multiple large holes caused 114 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,119 Speaker 1: a panic aboard the Arctic. The captain directed the crew 115 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: to point the ship toward the closest land, which was 116 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: Cape Race, and they started to accelerate toward it, but 117 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: they took on more and more water and started to 118 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: sink faster. Within four hours, the ship's furnaces were taking 119 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: on water and that just stopped the steamer dead. And meanwhile, 120 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: the panicked crewmen did not follow the captain's orders to 121 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: prioritize the lives of the women and children and instead dead, 122 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: many of them jumped into the lifeboats themselves. 123 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 2: The first attempts to launch the lifeboats resulted in those 124 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: boats being destroyed and the men aboard were lost. Subsequent 125 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: boats did launch successfully, but most of them were lost 126 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: at sea. A large raft that was assembled from the 127 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: wreckage started out with nearly eighty passengers. All but one 128 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: of them were eventually swept into the water, and only 129 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: two of the lifeboats reached Newfoundland, carrying a total of 130 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: forty five men, and two thirds of those men were 131 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: I think it's thirty one men and fourteen as the numbers. 132 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: Two thirds were crew members and only fourteen were passengers. 133 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: Captain Luce had tried to save his unconscious son, although 134 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: as the ship continued to break apart, he was hit 135 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: in the head by a piece of debris and killed. 136 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: The captain managed to scramble aboard a paddle box and 137 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: use it as a raft, and he and two other 138 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: men were eventually we picked up by the Cambria. The 139 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: Cambria was captained by John Russell, and it picked them 140 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: up on September twenty ninth, so all one hundred and 141 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: nine of the women and children that were aboard were killed, 142 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: as well as one hundred and forty nine male passengers 143 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: and ninety two crew members. And then I think we 144 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 2: should have a note on these numbers, because the actual 145 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: number of deceased fluctuates a good bit amongst accounts, you'll 146 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: see anywhere from two eighty five to three fifty one listed, 147 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 2: So the counts, even in women and children, passengers, and crews, 148 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: should not be taken as absolute. Some passengers managed to 149 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: make it to the Vesta and they would have been 150 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: theoretically reported, and others were picked up adrift in the water, 151 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: but they there wasn't always a clear line of record 152 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: as to what had happened to everybody. So even like 153 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 2: the captain's account, which we'll get to in a bit, 154 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: he lists the two hundred and thirty three passengers, but 155 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: their historical accounts will list different ones. So just keep 156 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: that in mind that there's some sponginess to the math 157 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: on this whole thing. 158 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 159 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: Well, and at the point that he was rescued, he'd 160 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 2: been in the water for a couple of days. Yeah, 161 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: so we cannot imagine his mental state, although based on 162 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: his description, which we'll get too shortly. It was an 163 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: extremely rough experience as you would imagine, also aboard the 164 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 2: ship during this wreck, where E. K. Collins's wife and 165 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: his children and they, naturally, based on those numbers that 166 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: we just said, did not survive. The Vesta did manage 167 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 2: to make port in Saint John's three days after the collision, 168 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: and accounts of the time kind of talked about the 169 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: great skill of her captain at managing to take that 170 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: damage ship into port. But before we get to the 171 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: next little bit of business and how this affected the 172 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: Collins line, would you like to take a moment and 173 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: talk about our sponsors. 174 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: Let's do that. 175 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 2: So let's get back to what happened once people realized 176 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: the death toll. 177 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, as news of this horrible incident reached news 178 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: outlets and the shore, the disproportionate amount of the crew 179 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: survivors versus passenger caused a major scandal on both sides 180 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: of the Atlantic, and it really really set in motion 181 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: what was eventually the financial ruin of the Collins line. 182 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: While the American Maritime Company had initially been a huge 183 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 2: threat to the established Quneard line of Britain, the Singing 184 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 2: of the Arctic, followed by the disappearance of the Pacific 185 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: during a voyage in eighteen fifty six, meant that the 186 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 2: Collins line was basically finished, despite attempts to revive their 187 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: reputation with a new and larger vessel named the Adriatic. 188 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: They went and bank just a few years after the 189 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: Pacific was lost, and. 190 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: As a point of interest, the Kunard line is still 191 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: in business today. They did quite well for themselves and survived. 192 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: And now we get to Captain Luce's account of what happened. 193 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: So on October fourteenth of eighteen fifty four in Quebec, 194 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: the captain wrote a letter to E. K. Collins to 195 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: describe the incident and notify him of his family member's deaths. 196 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: And the letter begins with Dear sir, it becomes my 197 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: painful duty to inform you of the total loss of 198 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: the Arctic under my command, with many lives, and I 199 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: fear among them must be included your own wife, daughter 200 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: and son, of whom I took a last leave the 201 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: moment the ship was going down, without ever expecting to 202 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: see the light of another day. To give you an 203 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: account of the heartrending scene. He goes on to say 204 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: that about fifteen minutes after leaving the deck at noon, 205 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: he heard hard starboard called out from the officers of 206 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: the deck, and immediately after the crash, Loose himself believed 207 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: that the primary goal that he and the crew should 208 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: focus on should be the rescue of the people aboard 209 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: the Vesta. They really did think that the Vesta was 210 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: the one that was going to go down, and his 211 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: account says that his first officer took six men and 212 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: one of the boats with the intent that they were 213 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: going over to the Vesta to collect people to bring 214 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: back to the Arctic. He also describes the general state 215 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: of panic and the abandonment of the women and children. 216 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: He writes, finding the leak gaining on us very fast, 217 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: notwithstanding all our very powerful efforts to keep her free, 218 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: I resolved to get the boats ready and as many 219 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: ladies and children placed in them as possible. But no 220 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: sooner had the attempt been made than the firemen and 221 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: others rushed into them in spite of opposition. Seeing this 222 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: state of things, I ordered the boats astern to be 223 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: kept in readiness until order could be restored. When, to 224 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: my dismay, I saw them cut the ropes in the 225 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: bow and soon disappear as stern in the fog. Another 226 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: boat was broken down by the persons rushing at the davits, 227 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: and many were precipitated into the sea and drowned. This 228 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: occurred while I had been engaged in setting the starboard 229 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: guard boat ready and placed the second officer in charge, 230 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: when the same fearful scene is what the first boat 231 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 1: was being enacted. Men leaping from the top of the 232 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: rail twenty feet, pushing and maiming those who were in 233 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: the boat. So quite clearly not exactly noble or chivalrous behavior. 234 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: And this is a quick side note. When we reference 235 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: firemen in this instance you probably know by context, but 236 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: they mean the people that are working in the steam 237 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: engine area, not firemen in the modern sense of people 238 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: that deal with fires. One of his officers, who was 239 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: a mister Dorian, did try to get a boat filled 240 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: with women and children loaded, but when an alarm sounded 241 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: signaling that the ship was sinking, the boat was really 242 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: hastily shoved off with no oars or other safety equipment. Yeah, 243 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: it sounds like he tried to keep the oars out 244 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: of the boat on purpose, so that these gentlemen that 245 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: were rushing the boats and just trying to take them 246 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: would not be as tempted to. But as a consequence, 247 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: those oars got left behind when the boat was shoved 248 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 1: off without sort of a proper check, and Luce describes 249 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: the sinking, and he says, in an instant, about a 250 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: quarter to five pm, the ship went down, carrying every 251 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: soul on board with her. I soon found myself on 252 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: a surface after a brief struggling, with my own helpless 253 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: child in my arms. And when again I felt myself 254 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: impelled downwards to a great depth, And before I reached 255 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: the surface a second time, had nearly perished and lost 256 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: the hold of my child. As I again struggled to 257 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: the surface of the water, a most awful and heartrending 258 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: scene presented itself to my view. Over two hundred men, 259 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: women and children struggling together amidst pieces of wreck of 260 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: every kind, calling on each other for help and imploring 261 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: God to assist them. Such an appalling scene, May God 262 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: preserve me from ever witnessing again. 263 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: LuSE goes on to give an account of losing his 264 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: son and watching the others die slowly around him during 265 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: the days of drift, And it's truly harrowing. 266 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: It really is. It's so it's one of those letters 267 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: that's clearly written from the point of view of a 268 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: man who is trying to do his job and write 269 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: a report and is clearly messed up by the whole thing. 270 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: And it should be noted that he captained nine other 271 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: vessels before taking his position on the Arctic, and he 272 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: had lost only two of them, which was actually quite 273 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: a good record. He was considered to be a really 274 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: skillful navigator and a very able captain. And according to 275 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: his obituary, when he returned to his hometown of Yonkers, 276 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: New York after this incident, he quote found two long 277 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: lines of citizens formed through which he walked, receiving warm 278 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: congratulations and hearty welcome. 279 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: He then went on to work for more than two 280 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: decades as an inspector for the Great Western Marine Insurance Company, 281 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: and he died in July eighteen seventy nine of heart disease. 282 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: He was seventy nine years old. And we're going to 283 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: pause one more moment and take another word from a sponsor, 284 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: and then we're going to talk about some modern analysis 285 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: of this stuff. Yeah, so, now let's look at this 286 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: whole idea of women and children first. Yeah, that's one 287 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: of those things where it's a good question to ask 288 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: where it came from and sort of how that happened. 289 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: And it's in an interesting coda to this issue. There 290 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: was a study that was performed by the Uppsala University 291 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: in Sweden and it was published in July of twenty twelve, 292 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: and it suggested that women and children actually have the 293 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: least likelihood of survival in a maritime disaster. This study 294 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: was co authored by two economists, Mikhail Ellender and Oscar Erickson, 295 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: and they analyzed data from eighteen shipwrecks that happened between 296 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: eighteen fifty two and twenty eleven. They only included the 297 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: instance that involved at least one hundred people with at 298 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 2: least five percent surviving and at least five percent dying, 299 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 2: and these statistics took into account the fates of more 300 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 2: than fifteen thousand people from thirty countries. Yeah, and those 301 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: numbers kind of gave me a bit of a jolt 302 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 2: at first, and like, fifteen thousand people, but it's only 303 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 2: eighteen shipwrecks, and when you're thinking about it in the 304 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: context of a shipwreck like this, where it's roughly three 305 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 2: hundred ish people. That seems impossible math, But then when 306 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: you think about the more modern ones right, Cruise liners, 307 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 2: for example, can carry anywhere between two to six thousand 308 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: people depending on their size, so that kind of makes 309 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 2: up for those what seems like a big number gap 310 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: maybe on first look. And the Titanic, which was included 311 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: in this study, had three times more women survive the 312 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 2: incident than men, but this turned out to be the 313 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: exception rather than the rule. A similar outlier was the 314 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: HMS Birkenhead, which sank in eighteen fifty two, and in fact, 315 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: the Women and Children First Rule is sometimes referred to 316 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 2: as the Birkenhead drill because that ship, sinking off the 317 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: coast of South Africa is usually recognized as the first 318 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 2: time that order was ever given. So all of the 319 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 2: women and children that had been aboard the Birkenhead did 320 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 2: actually survive, while many soldiers just stood there silently, sinking 321 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: with the ship into shark infested waters. According to Ellender 322 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 2: and Ericsson's findings, women were only half as likely to 323 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: survive a shipwreck as men. Crew members had an eighteen 324 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: point seven percent greater chance of survival than passengers, and 325 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: only seven out of sixteen captains actually went down with 326 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: the ship and their data set. And furthermore, women had 327 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: the worst survival rates on British vessels, even though the 328 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 2: women and Children first Order is documented as having been 329 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: given much more frequently on British ships than other vessels. Yeah, 330 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: and today people look at it as sort of a 331 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: Victorian British sensibility in particular. 332 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. 333 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 2: Prior to this research, there had been a theory that 334 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: selfish behavior would more likely erupt on fast sinking ships, 335 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 2: while a slower sinking would allow people who were involved 336 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: to stay calmer and exhibit more socially accepted behavior patterns. 337 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: But Elsinder and Erickson found that it was actually the 338 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: captain's behavior rather than a time sensitive situation, that tended 339 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: to determine the crew's behavior. So in only five of 340 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: those eighteen sinkings that they studied was the women and 341 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: Children first order issued by a captain. Ellender frames this 342 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: information as an insight into human behavior. He says, although 343 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: maritime disasters are tragic events, they can contribute to our 344 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: understanding of how people behave under extreme stress and when 345 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: it is a matter of life and death. Yeah, I 346 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: think it's one of those things where it's easy to 347 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: kind of vilify people or kind of judge them for 348 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: their behavior. But I I don't know how I would 349 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: react in such a moment. I don't think you know 350 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: until you're in it. Yeah, well, as you've undergone very 351 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: specific like emergency style training, right. Well, in their particular 352 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: study looks generally at the question of men and women, 353 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: but not some of the other factors that influence who 354 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: makes it off the ship and who doesn't. Like on 355 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: the Titanic, for example, first class women and children had 356 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: a pretty astounding survival rate, but women and children in 357 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: steerage did not so much. Yeah, so it was not 358 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: quite so much women and children first as it was 359 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: rich women and children first when it came to in 360 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: the Titanic in particular, I kind of after I read 361 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: your notes, I kind of went down this rabbit hole 362 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: of the whole idea of women and children first and 363 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: where it comes from and what it means today when 364 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: since when it first came about was in the eighteen fifties, 365 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: and that was a very different time in terms of 366 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 1: gender relation and relations and sort of the perception of 367 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: women as both whether women were perceived as weak or 368 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: strong and whether women were perceived as like actual autonomous 369 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: people or objects. Right, So I kind of went down 370 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: a crazy rabbit hole of that, and it reminded me 371 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: in a way of how I've traveled by ship several 372 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: times in the past few years, and we always have 373 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: a safety drill, and the safety drill is always about 374 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: getting everyone off the ship. It's about like every person 375 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: knowing where they need to go to get on a lifeboat, 376 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: and every ship having enough lifeboat accommodations for every person 377 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: on the ship to make it off safely. Yep. 378 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 2: And the only real reference to children that has come 379 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 2: up in the ships that I have been on has 380 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 2: been that for the parents, if their children are not 381 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: with them, the parents are to go to their lifeboat 382 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: station and their children will be brought to them by crew, 383 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 2: because all the children have to have little wristbands or 384 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 2: whatever on saying this is my lifeboat station. So it's 385 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 2: like there are still special accommodations for children, but other 386 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: accommodations seem to be based on actual threats to people's safety, 387 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 2: people who may have a mobility impairment that need to 388 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 2: be assisted with getting off the ship, and not so 389 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: much based on gender or class yeah, and it is 390 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: also a very different time in terms of now this 391 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 2: is kind of always referenced as part of the Titanic's legacy. 392 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 2: Now there are enough lifeboats for everyone. They did that 393 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: on purpose, yes, whereas there were not. That was not 394 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 2: standard operating procedure for a very long time, right, So 395 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: it did become a matter of who do we save? 396 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 2: And there have been some interesting discussions if you kind 397 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: of trawl around the internet and like maritime interest boards 398 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: at all, where discussions will come up of well, women 399 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: and children are less likely just physically to survive something 400 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: like hypothermia adrift at sea than men might. So in 401 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: saying women and children first, are we in fact doing 402 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 2: everyone to die? It's into a very interesting arena of 403 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 2: discussion and can get very heated very quickly. So you 404 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: are not ready for very grown up angry talk. Don't 405 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: visit those boards. No, it definitely does seem to come 406 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 2: from a sense of like chivalry. Yeah, and what we 407 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: might classify today is benevolent sexism, which I don't think 408 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 2: we've talked about that on this podcast, but we have 409 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: on our prior podcast before talked about the idea that 410 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 2: there's sometimes sexism is intended, yeah, to be benevolent, even 411 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: though it doesn't really play out that way when you 412 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: follow it to its logical end. So it's framed that 413 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: way rather than any kind of practical sense of actually 414 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: ensuring the survivability of the group. 415 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets into very interesting stuff and I like 416 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: that there. The study that was done in Sweden to 417 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: analyze all of this covered such a nice wide range 418 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: of you know, eighteen fifties to modern day cruise ships, right, 419 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: because that's a pretty wide For example, now we have 420 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: enough boats for everybody. But even so they're finding that still, yeah, 421 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: men have better survival right. 422 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: Well, the differences between first class and what used to 423 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 2: be called steerage are much different now. 424 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so that's today's maritime story. Uh, we'll have more, 425 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure, but everybody loves a good shipwreck tale and 426 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: it did. This one is interesting to me because it 427 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: did bring up so many interesting questions about, uh, how 428 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: people handle panic and fear and yeah, I can't judge anybody. 429 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know what I would do. 430 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us on this Saturday. If 431 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: you'd like to send us a note, our email addresses 432 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 2: History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com and you can subscribe 433 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: to the show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 434 00:24:54,600 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.