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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived. To you.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 2: and manipulation from two tongue speakers who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blong.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Megan Elizabeth, the tongue speakers. That's what you'll

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Speaker 1: get at it.

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Speaker 4: You'll get it, You'll hear it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll make sense.

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Speaker 4: It's good today.

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Speaker 2: Our guest is Caleb Ward, my pal from the horror

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Speaker 2: film community, but also a former pastor's son who experienced

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Speaker 2: the height of evangelical culture in the early two thousands

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Speaker 2: in a church called Kingdom Life Ministries. While Kyla was

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Speaker 2: not necessarily in a traditional cult, we'll talk about what

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Speaker 2: it was like growing up in an environment where everyone

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Speaker 2: was speaking in tongues and having loud prophecies in church

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Speaker 2: about things like who would win the game, the pressures

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Speaker 2: that come with being the son of a pastor, and

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Speaker 2: how those heightened emotional experiences keep people connected to their churches.

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Speaker 1: He'll talk about the wild evangelical youth culture involving Christian Rock,

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Speaker 1: how good church leadership can exist, and why he thinks

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Speaker 1: shunning is one of the worst parts of modern Christian religion.

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Speaker 2: This episode has some pretty comical evangelical cultural touchstones here

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Speaker 2: that I would really like to see a TV show of,

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Speaker 2: So Klob please get on that. But yeah, it's not

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Speaker 2: what it's not a necessarily a traditional cult episode, but

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Speaker 2: I think you guys will enjoy it. And there's still

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Speaker 2: plenty to talk about in terms of the evangelical community

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Speaker 2: and that like heightened emotion thing that some of these

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Speaker 2: churches can give us that keep us feeling so connected

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Speaker 2: to those communities. Be on the point where maybe we

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Speaker 2: should be right totally before we jump in. What's your

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Speaker 2: culty is saying of this week? Actually, I know what

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Speaker 2: it is because it's the same as mine.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we're sharing one. Okay, you give it. You give

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Speaker 1: it its introduction.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so everyone by now, I think probably has seen

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Speaker 2: all the headlines about this new cult known as the Zizians.

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Speaker 4: If you consume conservative.

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Speaker 2: Media, you will be there will be a lot of

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Speaker 2: fear mongering you're probably saying about it. But it almost

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Speaker 2: seems like this is kind of this generation's Manson Family

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Speaker 2: a little bit in that it's like praying on some

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Speaker 2: like fears in conservative America. But there are actual killings

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Speaker 2: that are happening and there it's all led by one

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Speaker 2: person who's like.

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Speaker 4: Radicalized.

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Speaker 2: Some very intelligent, otherwise seemingly had good jobs and pretty

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Speaker 2: normal lives people. The Zizian leader is a trans woman.

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Speaker 2: Most colds, obviously are are run by cis gender people.

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Speaker 2: This one happens to be run by a trans woman

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Speaker 2: and that is being run within the media. Nevertheless, it

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Speaker 2: is pretty insane. Six is it six people that have

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Speaker 2: been killed now, Megan.

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Speaker 1: Yes, six. They've been linked to six deaths across three

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Speaker 1: states and maybe more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're apparently one of the members. Their parents

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Speaker 2: have been killed.

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Speaker 4: There was an older there's an old.

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Speaker 2: Man whose property they were kind of like trying to

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Speaker 2: set up shop on, like camp out on and he

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Speaker 2: tried to get them to leave, and they tried to

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Speaker 2: kill him, and then he survived, and then he was

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Speaker 2: going to testify against them in court, and then allegedly

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Speaker 2: they did kill him, this eighty something year old man,

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Speaker 2: and then there was a shootout with the cops where

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Speaker 2: like two people died, I think one of the members

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Speaker 2: and maybe a cop.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as far as the like carnage goes, I

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Speaker 1: think that's pretty much the overarching description of it. Like

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Speaker 1: you said, it's been everywhere. It's kind of confusing, you know,

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Speaker 1: but it's it is really scary. And I was kind

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Speaker 1: of going back to the beginning to see what they

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Speaker 1: actually were originally talking about, and I found it very interesting.

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Speaker 1: So there's this Bay Area rationalist thought called functional decision

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Speaker 1: theory that I guess really took off at Berkeley, which

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Speaker 1: is where a lot of these women are going. So basically,

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Speaker 1: what it's saying is that what decision do you want

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Speaker 1: to make if you're making this decision for every version

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Speaker 1: of yourself in every reality, So what it really wants

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Speaker 1: you to do is pre commit to huge decisions so

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Speaker 1: that every version of you in every reality is making

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Speaker 1: the same choice. And the point of it is like,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it works out quote unquote in

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Speaker 1: this reality, as long as you're doing it in every

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Speaker 1: reality and one of them at well, and then enough

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Speaker 1: of them you're going to make positive changes. So you know,

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Speaker 1: they were very committed to causes like veganism, So there

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Speaker 1: was really extreme things that they decided to pre commit

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Speaker 1: to that would help change this industry, which, being totally honest,

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Speaker 1: I could really see myself getting caught up in a

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Speaker 1: belief system like this, especially if it includes something like veganism,

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Speaker 1: which I'm not currently vegan, but I have been for

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Speaker 1: a very long times in my life and get very

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Speaker 1: passionate about it. Yeah, really interesting and definitely a cult

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Speaker 1: that I could be persuaded to join.

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is so interesting because I feel like normally

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Speaker 2: you and I would be like we would totally join

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Speaker 2: different cults, but this is one, not because of what

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Speaker 2: you just said, but because of some of the other

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Speaker 2: parts of the other origins. Also seems like one that

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Speaker 2: I would join because it's Okay, So it's a group

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Speaker 2: of like young computer scientists who are all like you know,

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Speaker 2: apparently incredibly intelligent. Like one of the members all her

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Speaker 2: friends kind of came forward and were like, she's so smart,

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Speaker 2: she's so like brilliant, she had so much going for her,

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Speaker 2: and she got sucked into this thing.

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Speaker 4: It's all of these people who are.

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Speaker 2: Kind of My understanding is their belief system is centered

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Speaker 2: around like rationalist thought or whatever, and it's all about

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Speaker 2: like making choices. My understanding is that there's some association

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Speaker 2: with this idea of like rationalism and talking about the

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Speaker 2: you know, the dangers of AI just stuff that I

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Speaker 2: like connect with. But then it starts to get pretty

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Speaker 2: hairy because I guess the leader whose name is as

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Speaker 2: if they look that up.

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Speaker 1: I'll I'll just say, like rationalists use this the school

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Speaker 1: thought that I described to justify like radical altruism. If

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Speaker 1: I donate now, I want every version of me and

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Speaker 1: all realities to donate. You know, if I kill the

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Speaker 1: bad guy now, I want every version of me and

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Speaker 1: all reality is to kill the bad guy.

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Speaker 4: That's their version of rationalism.

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Speaker 2: Because traditionally rationalism is believing that reason is the primary

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Speaker 2: source of knowledge, not experienced, and so I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of people would not believe in multiple realities necessarily.

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Speaker 4: So the leader Zizz, who also faked.

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Speaker 1: Her own depth which was a right side plot. I

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Speaker 1: was not expecting.

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Speaker 4: Oh, by the way, she she's just been arrested. She

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Speaker 4: and someone else have just been arrested. So that's why

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Speaker 4: this is breaking news this week.

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Speaker 2: So the leaders is one of the things that she

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Speaker 2: was starting to talk about was this idea that there

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Speaker 2: are two different parts of your brain and like they

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Speaker 2: have conflicting personalities and ideas or whatever, and like something

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Speaker 2: about you know, trying to reconcile these two different parts

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Speaker 2: of yourself, which is not based in anything actually rationalist

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Speaker 2: or like based on any evidence.

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Speaker 4: That's just like some shit she made up. So the

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Speaker 4: point is, we don't really know that much.

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Speaker 2: We know that the general outlines of some of the beliefs,

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Speaker 2: but as we know, the beliefs are not generally important.

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Speaker 2: What's generally the key is that there's a leader who is,

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Speaker 2: you know, manipulating people and kind of radicalizing them, and

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Speaker 2: in this case they are they have been radicalized to

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Speaker 2: the point where people have been murdered.

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Speaker 4: And that is all we know.

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Speaker 2: And also we no one's been convicted in court yet,

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Speaker 2: so we don't know who did what allegedly. It's all alleged,

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Speaker 2: but they've.

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Speaker 4: Been linked to these deaths, we should say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say that there was an article just

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Speaker 1: kind of describing the other trans women and the group

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Speaker 1: and how they were all and you know this this

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Speaker 1: is just one article, but they're just saying that they're

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Speaker 1: like super lonely vulnerable people that you know, we see

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Speaker 1: that as being people culled pray on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, exactly, So more to come.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure this will be in the news for many

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Speaker 2: weeks and months and we will update y'all. But until then,

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Speaker 2: should we talk to Caleb.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk to Caleb. So you've decided to quit your

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Speaker 1: job and chase after your dreams, good for you. But

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Speaker 1: f YI, if you run a business, then you need

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Speaker 1: all the help you can get. Even the biggest names

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Speaker 1: in the industry need help. The BBC, Penguin Books, Sophora,

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Speaker 1: these are all companies that have a business behind the business.

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Speaker 1: For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does

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Speaker 1: selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout

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Speaker 1: on the planet and the not so secret secret with

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Speaker 1: shop pay that boost conversions up to fifty percent, meaning

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Speaker 1: wayless carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So

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Speaker 1: if you're into growing your business your commerce platform better

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Speaker 1: be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or

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Speaker 1: strolling on the web, in your store and their feed

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Speaker 1: and everywhere in between. Businesses the sell more sell on Shopify.

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Speaker 1: Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that the

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Speaker 1: biggest companies use. Sign up for your one dollar per

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Speaker 1: month trial period at shopify dot com slash trust me

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Speaker 1: all lowercase. Go to shopify dot com slash trust me

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Speaker 1: to upgrade. You're selling today shopify dot com slash trust me.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Caleb Ward to trust me. Thank you, thanks for

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Speaker 2: being here in the flesh.

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Speaker 1: That was enthusiastic entrance.

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen him in so long.

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Speaker 1: It was so fun.

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Speaker 5: It does feel like a nice, like little reunion. This

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Speaker 5: was great, This is perfect. I've never felt more welcome

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Speaker 5: in my life.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's all you want exactly. So you

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Speaker 2: are a pastor's son, yes, and you were in a

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Speaker 2: group we have never talked about before. Start us at

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Speaker 2: the beginning. Tell us about your some of your early

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Speaker 2: memories of religion, like maybe that first church that you

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Speaker 2: were in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay.

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Speaker 5: So I was born in Baltimore, Maryland, where my dad

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Speaker 5: was the pastor of a church called Belvity or Baptist Church,

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Speaker 5: which was essentially sort of like an offshoot of the

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Speaker 5: Southern Baptist Convention, which is a denomination mostly based in

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Speaker 5: the South. Obviously, it was predominantly just sort of like

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Speaker 5: a standard like Baptist Christian church for a very long time,

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Speaker 5: and then sort of in like the mid nineties, there

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Speaker 5: was sort of like a shift where they started doing

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Speaker 5: more like praise and worship and speaking in tongues and

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Speaker 5: using banners and and and you know, all kinds of

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Speaker 5: like performative banners. Banner oh, like like giant banners that

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Speaker 5: just say like Jesus. Like there were like a couple

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Speaker 5: of like mostly women, I feel like, who would just

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Speaker 5: sort of like parade through.

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Speaker 3: The church.

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Speaker 1: Like banner girl.

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Speaker 5: I know, yeah, banners and ribbons. It was like, what's

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Speaker 5: the competition with the Olympic competition.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of strange for there to be oh the ribbons. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's I mean. Were you kind of like, WHOA,

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Speaker 1: that's weird or no?

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Speaker 5: Because that was all I knew, Like I remember because

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Speaker 5: I went to Christian school at like a different at

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Speaker 5: like a Lutheran school for a long time, and like

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Speaker 5: we would have like Lutheran chapel and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 5: this is that I think maybe that was like the

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Speaker 5: first time I was like, oh, this is a lot

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Speaker 5: different than what we do on Like my Sundays are

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Speaker 5: a lot different, where like at this Lutheran school it

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Speaker 5: was a lot more like traditional and hymns and stand up,

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Speaker 5: sit down, neil and you're out the door, like very

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Speaker 5: standard like Christianity, Lutheran Christianity, and ours was more like

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Speaker 5: a rock concert.

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Speaker 2: So I was Mormon, So our Mormon church is very solemn.

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Speaker 2: We only play the organ, and no one's like saying

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Speaker 2: anything funny ever. I mean maybe maybe you'll have a

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Speaker 2: missionary who'll get up and give a talk, and you

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Speaker 2: might crack a joke or two, but generally it's like

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Speaker 2: quite serious. And I went to like some friends services

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Speaker 2: or whatever, and I was like, what the fuck is

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Speaker 2: going on? There's guitar in shurt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean it's how I learned how to played drums.

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Speaker 5: It's how we learned how to play every instrument that

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Speaker 5: I know how to play. Was because I was like

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Speaker 5: in the band, that's kind of sick, okay cool for

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Speaker 5: like me and the like sixty people that would come

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Speaker 5: to the church. I was like a local celebrity to

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Speaker 5: sixty people.

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Speaker 1: The same sorrow was like seeing us what worship to

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Speaker 1: God was. Yeah, you guys, sorrow like way Mormons the

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Speaker 1: act of being sad. Oh yeah, yeah, we had to be.

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Speaker 3: It's very Catholic.

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Speaker 1: You're like, sorrow that sounds like a cool rock band.

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Speaker 3: No, just Sound Nails cover band.

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Speaker 1: And we weren't even allowed to have organ It was

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Speaker 1: just just people saying hell yeah, and some people not good.

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Speaker 1: Oh well I'm sure. Yeah, so far your group sounds

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Speaker 1: kind of cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I mean like as a kid, you're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 5: we get to like run around and like this is

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Speaker 5: kind of fun. And you know, we were there until until.

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Speaker 3: I was ten.

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Speaker 5: We were we were in Baltimore for the first ten

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Speaker 5: years of my life this church because.

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Speaker 3: There's so formative. This is all I knew. We were

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Speaker 3: there several days a week. You know.

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Speaker 5: My my mom had a job at an accounting firm.

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Speaker 5: I think she was working in or No, it was

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Speaker 5: a CPA, and my dad was, you know, at the

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Speaker 5: church every day. And I think the congregation was like

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Speaker 5: at that time, was probably like one hundred one hundred

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Speaker 5: and fifty or something like that. It was a lot

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Speaker 5: bigger at that time, which I don't know if that's

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Speaker 5: that's not a mega church by any yeah big because

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Speaker 5: of like what the church that we eventually ended up

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Speaker 5: at was a lot smaller. But this was you know,

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Speaker 5: mid to late nineties, so it was like DC Talk

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Speaker 5: and Reliant K were like big bands in my life

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Speaker 5: because like, you know, that was all I was allowed

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Speaker 5: to listen to, And like POD was like the first

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Speaker 5: like like more hard you know band.

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Speaker 3: Do you guys know Christian rock?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we are.

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Speaker 5: That's the one that, like most people know. But like

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Speaker 5: when I think of POD, I think of Snuff the Punk.

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Speaker 2: Snuff the Punk.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Snuff the Punk is the first album that Pod

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Speaker 5: ever put out. It was like an EP and the

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Speaker 5: I remember the original album art, which is like kind

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Speaker 5: of hard to find, is like an angel holding a

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Speaker 5: gun like and pointing it at a demon like in

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Speaker 5: like a like a half Nelson kind of situation.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, fucking rad right, isn't that cool?

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Speaker 2: I mean, that is sick?

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Speaker 1: I was.

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Speaker 2: I had an album title title that I wanted to

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Speaker 2: use for my new album, and I looked it up

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Speaker 2: to see if anyone had it, and Pod just released

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Speaker 2: an album with that title, so I can't use it.

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Speaker 3: What is it?

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Speaker 1: Lies?

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Speaker 2: We tell ourselves.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's that's very cool.

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Speaker 5: I haven't listened to a new Pod album and probably a.

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Speaker 3: Very long time. You don't need to, okay.

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Speaker 5: But I did drive by myself to San Diego three

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Speaker 5: years ago to see them live for the first time

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Speaker 5: because I was like, I just need to full circle.

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Speaker 3: I need to see them. I'd never seen them perform live.

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Speaker 1: Really.

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Speaker 5: I drove by myself to the House of Blues. I

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Speaker 5: asked so many people to come with me. I was like,

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Speaker 5: I'll buy your ticket. I don't want to go to

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Speaker 5: this alone. Let us guess, and everyone was like, no, thanks,

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Speaker 5: I have gone. I was like, okay, I guess I'll

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Speaker 5: go by myself. And I went and like they played

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Speaker 5: the hits and I was like, great, got that out

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Speaker 5: of my system and site, I mean.

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Speaker 2: No hate to Pod. I don't know Christian, that's fine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it has like a nostalgia factor.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but like that was that was sort of like

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Speaker 5: all I knew as far as like pop culture, and

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Speaker 5: like my community was like all based in this church,

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Speaker 5: like our friends all of our like family friends, Like

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Speaker 5: it was all based in this church. Like I had

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Speaker 5: some neighbor friends and friends from school, but like it

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Speaker 5: was mostly like this community, you know, except for us

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Speaker 5: all living on a compound. Like it was just this

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Speaker 5: insular group that you know, kind of fed into each other.

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Speaker 5: And like people would leave. And I was very young

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Speaker 5: at the time. I didn't really sort of pick up

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Speaker 5: on this until way later, but like people would leave

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Speaker 5: the church and they would essentially be like completely ostracized,

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Speaker 5: you know. And I didn't experience that until much later

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Speaker 5: in life. But like I remember at the time being like, oh,

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Speaker 5: the so and sos have left the church. That's sad, like,

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Speaker 5: but we'll still see them, right wrong, Like we never

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Speaker 5: see them again.

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Speaker 3: It was like they died.

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Speaker 2: Right when did you guys? Transition from Church one into

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Speaker 2: Kingdom Life Ministries.

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Speaker 5: So we left Baltimore for North Carolina in two thousand

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Speaker 5: and two. The summer of two thousand and two, we

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Speaker 5: moved to Richland's, North Carolina, which is bumfuck nowhere town

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Speaker 5: of I think the last time I checked the population

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Speaker 5: as of like twenty twenty two, it was like sixteen

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Speaker 5: hundred people. Oh my god, So I think at the time,

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Speaker 5: it was like probably like eleven hundred.

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Speaker 3: It's near a bigger city.

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Speaker 5: It's near Jacksonville, North Carolina, where Camp La June is,

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Speaker 5: which is like the largest marine base, so there's a

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Speaker 5: lot of people there. But like in my like town,

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Speaker 5: like where I went to high school, very teeny tiny.

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Speaker 5: That was when we shifted to well what was called

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Speaker 5: at the time Praised Tabernacle.

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Speaker 3: It was called Praise Tabernacle at the time.

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Speaker 2: It's really amazing how many people who grew up in

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Speaker 2: the evangelical community were at just tons of different churches

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Speaker 2: with all these different names and the differences. It's just

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Speaker 2: minutia what the differences are. I cannot keep track.

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Speaker 3: Like I can't either, and I was in it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Like like if you asked me, like what the

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Speaker 5: impetus for calling the church Praised Tabernacle was, I don't

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Speaker 5: know that I could tell you, Like I I it

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Speaker 5: like I'd have to like really stretch to try and

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Speaker 5: figure out why it was called that. I mean, I

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Speaker 5: knew why they changed the name to Kingdom Life Ministries,

380
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Speaker 5: and it was because after you know, the founder of

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Speaker 5: the church, doctor Kelly Varner, passed in two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 5: my dad like sort of was like it's time for rebrand,

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Speaker 5: like let's let's shake things up. You know, it's sort

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Speaker 5: of like a new not regime, but like you.

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Speaker 3: Know, a new new era. Yeah, a new era. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: He was in his kingdom life era.

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Speaker 5: And and and that felt more attuned to sort of

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Speaker 5: what the mission I guess overall was of, you know,

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Speaker 5: of the church, which was sort of like this higher

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Speaker 5: elevation of living living a kingdom life. Like there were

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Speaker 5: there were these sort of these like almost like sections

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Speaker 5: of like higher learning that they would call like the

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Speaker 5: the lower room, the middle room, in the upper room,

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Speaker 5: which is I believe pulled from the New Testament, where

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Speaker 5: after Jesus dies, it's okay, yeah, after Jesus dies, the

396
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,880
Speaker 5: apostles are like communing in a room literally like in

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Speaker 5: an upstairs room. This is the story that I might

398
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Speaker 5: be butchering. And this is when they like feel the

399
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Speaker 5: Holy Spirit for the first time, and so like this

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Speaker 5: is the story in the Bible that talks about speaking

401
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Speaker 5: in tongues, which is, you know, basically like when you

402
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 5: have no other words to describe what you're trying to

403
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,920
Speaker 5: communicate to God, it's just sort of like this mumbo

404
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 5: jumbo like made up language, you know, and like the

405
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 5: bid is like he's coming, He's coming on a Honda

406
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Speaker 5: leaving on a Hondai. Like that's the like bid is like, Oh,

407
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 5: if you don't know what you're saying, just keep saying

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Speaker 5: that over and over again.

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Speaker 1: And I don't get that. If you're coming in a hut.

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Speaker 3: It's just like it's just like an automonopoia kind of sounding.

411
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 2: Okay, So I grew up doing auctioneering, I am, and

412
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 2: she was and ventriloqui.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

414
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Speaker 2: So I went to like auctioneer school, which I say

415
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 2: in quotation marks because it was a weekend seminar. It

416
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Speaker 2: was not a school, but my mom and I went

417
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Speaker 2: to camp. Yeah, but it was my mom and nine

418
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,639
Speaker 2: year old me and like twenty five grown ass cowboys

419
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 2: and amazing. But I like, I was just thinking about

420
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Speaker 2: it the other day because my friends were asking about it,

421
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Speaker 2: and auctioneering is very similar. You just say, who.

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Speaker 1: Would he go?

423
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Speaker 2: Who'd have bid dollar?

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Speaker 6: Now?

425
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Speaker 3: Can you still do it?

426
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Speaker 1: Now?

427
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,479
Speaker 2: Like if you tried, I basically just have like a

428
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 2: five second snippet memorized because I don't really remember.

429
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Speaker 3: How to do it.

430
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I if I would have been I would go

431
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Speaker 2: if I not five, who not ten? Would go ten?

432
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Speaker 1: Ten?

433
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 2: Now fifteen? Okay, that's all I got.

434
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Speaker 3: That's basically speaking in tongues.

435
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can do it.

436
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:27,879
Speaker 1: Is this speaking in tongues? Yeah, I used to do

437
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 1: when I was when I was little.

438
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Speaker 3: That gave me chills. Here, it's weird.

439
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Speaker 1: So I used to do that when I was little

440
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Speaker 1: all of the time. And and the two by twos

441
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Speaker 1: you're not allowed to speak in tongues like that is

442
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Speaker 1: one of the biggest sins you can commit. And my

443
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Speaker 1: mom would be like, shut.

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Speaker 3: Up, why was it?

445
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's some verse in the Bible that

446
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 1: says like you should stop speaking in what the Bible

447
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 1: just like says so many different things.

448
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,200
Speaker 3: It's so hypocritical.

449
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 1: So yeah, but it was like the one thing I

450
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 1: was kind of good at and just came naturally to me.

451
00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: And I was like, just let me freaking speaking.

452
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 3: This is one thing, Like I've got it down.

453
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have been a rock star.

454
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: I know. My dad and I would pretend to speak

455
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 2: in another language just to like fuck with my friends.

456
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: Oh that's fun. So it was basically speaking in tongues

457
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: kind of Yeah.

458
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 5: I mean yeah, you know, uh, what's the it's like

459
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 5: pig Latin. Kind of sounds like pig Latin.

460
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, whatever, exactly. Yeah.

461
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,159
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485
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Speaker 2: pros dot com slash Trust. Sorry, So, speaking in tongues

486
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: was in the So that was, Yeah, that was in

487
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 2: Baltimore as well as North Carolina, but like just to

488
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: kind of like take a step back to like Belvedere

489
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: and Baltimore sort of how we ended up in North

490
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: Carolina was basically my dad had started to kind of

491
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 2: feel like, you know, they weren't doing enough, like there

492
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: was something higher to sort of access.

493
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 5: And like speaking tongues and you know, in praise and

494
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 5: worship and like loud and gregarious and not just like

495
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 5: this like sorrow and woe and like we're so bad

496
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 5: and we're sinners. Like there was more to it than that.

497
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 5: So like there was there was like there were honest

498
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 5: intentions in it. I think as far as like we

499
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 5: could be doing more and we don't need to be

500
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 5: like these like downtrodden. Everything is bad and you're so awful,

501
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 5: like like.

502
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, Like what's the profile on your dad.

503
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 3: Like like what's his whole what's his.

504
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: Deal, what's his character?

505
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, my dad is from not from My dad's from Florida,

506
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 5: from Winter Park, Florida.

507
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 3: He did not grow up very religious.

508
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 5: And then he was in the army, and then he

509
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 5: was in the Navy, and then he was in the

510
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 5: Air Force.

511
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: Oh wow, I think in that order, I think.

512
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 7: A military I've never Yeah, and he didn't retire, you know,

513
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 7: he did his like his tenure, like his the years

514
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 7: that he had signed up for, and then he left

515
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 7: and he talks about how when he left he didn't

516
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,479
Speaker 7: really have like any direction.

517
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 5: There was like a navy captain who brought him to

518
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 5: a church service one night, and you know, and that

519
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 5: just sort of changed his life.

520
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: From there, he went to Bible College.

521
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 5: That's where he met my mom and they got married

522
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 5: and then nine years later they had me and they

523
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 5: ended up in Baltimore. Take you over this church because

524
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 5: he was part of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is

525
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 5: basically like a like like if you were like playing

526
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 5: in like the minor leagues, like in baseball, like you

527
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 5: like play for like the the the Tulsa Drillers, which

528
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 5: is like a minor league for the Dodge. Is like okay,

529
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 5: you get called up to the Dodgers. Like he was

530
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 5: a Mississippi, he was in Montana. He got called up

531
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 5: to take care of this church in Baltimore.

532
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 3: That's all right.

533
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: He seems very charming from the from what I've seen.

534
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 3: M Yeah, he's a really good guy.

535
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he seems like I would trust him.

536
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

537
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: Do you think that the military informed his like being

538
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: drawn to religion like kind of with the structure and hierarchy.

539
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 5: That's interesting. I never I've never thought about it like

540
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 5: that actually, but that makes a lot of sense, like

541
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 5: sort of having a system in place. But it's so

542
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 5: interesting because like he kind of broke away from that

543
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 5: and became a little more like freestyle, you know, right,

544
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 5: So that's really interesting.

545
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: I never thought about it, like, I mean, I.

546
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 2: Guess, Yeah, what you're describing sounds more not chaotic, but

547
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 2: like expressive.

548
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: I guess.

549
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: But he started out like you said, I mean, he

550
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: did start out more regiment to him, right yeah, and then.

551
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 3: You know I saw there was something more.

552
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So tell us about how, like how did

553
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: he actually become the pastor it was like in North Carolina.

554
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, So it's an interesting story.

555
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 5: So basically, in two thousand and two, doctor Varner invited

556
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 5: my dad to come down to Richonds, North Carolina and

557
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 5: start a school essentially for pastors.

558
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 3: Like, oh, it would be sort of like a quarterly.

559
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 5: Conference of sorts where pastors sort of within this sort

560
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 5: of like offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of

561
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 5: Christianity being like Kingdom Ministry would come in and like

562
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,959
Speaker 5: learn from him and learn from doctor Varner about like

563
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 5: various teachings and just really digging into like the granular,

564
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 5: granular parts of the Bible, like stuff that was taught

565
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 5: to us on Sundays, and would just go completely over

566
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 5: my head because it was like a collegiate level of learning.

567
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 5: Like it wasn't like here's a simple Bible story, you know,

568
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 5: you unto others and then you see you next week.

569
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 5: It was like, let's talk about what like Ezekiel means

570
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 5: when he says this one word and this is the

571
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 5: original Latin or this is the original Greek and like

572
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 5: just stuff that was so over my head at the time.

573
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 3: So he was brought down to run this school.

574
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 5: We had been there I think like six months at

575
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 5: the time, and the hierarchy of the church was there

576
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 5: was doctor Varner, there was another pastor I think his

577
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 5: last I think he was Pastor Keating I think, and

578
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 5: then my dad was running this church. So it was

579
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 5: sort of like that hierarchy.

580
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: And doctor Varner is the leader of the whole great.

581
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's like like the CEO, and then the pastor

582
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 5: is kind of like the president. And then my dad

583
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 5: was like, you know, running a department.

584
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: Right right, right right.

585
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: And how big was the total group, would you say?

586
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 5: I think at the time it's probably like around one

587
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,959
Speaker 5: hundred people. Oh yeah, small, very small, like yeah, maybe

588
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 5: maybe one hundred people. And I think we had been

589
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 5: in North Carolina maybe like six months at the time,

590
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 5: maybe a little longer when the pastor just like left,

591
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 5: like we were given like no story, like he's.

592
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: Gone, Well he probably did something bad, right.

593
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 5: Probably, I mean I have to assume like in some capacity,

594
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 5: like he just like it was like overnight, he's gone,

595
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 5: He's out of here.

596
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: So interesting, we've had two guests on the show who

597
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: were pastors and had a like sexual indiscretion of some

598
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: kind and we're like overnight, yea, just gone.

599
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: So there was a.

600
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 5: There was a separate incident, not not with this pastor

601
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,959
Speaker 5: but with the church like accountant or not secretary, but

602
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 5: like who would run the money for a church.

603
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: I love gossip so much that I'm like drooling to

604
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: find out what this is.

605
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 5: Oh, this was like this is the first year. This

606
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 5: is all stuff that happened, like the first year we've

607
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 5: been there. Like the drama, uh, like the the account

608
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 5: I can't remember exactly what is his title was just

609
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 5: like also gone in the night, and we're all like

610
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 5: what happened?

611
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: And it was he was stealing.

612
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 5: He'd been stealing from the Jurnal for like years, oh

613
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 5: for years of legitimate yeah, and like but like the

614
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 5: like the pastors were like, we're not seeking legal action,

615
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 5: Like you have.

616
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: To go though, like and that's and we can come

617
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: back to that, but like not seeking legal action. We

618
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: come back to a lot in this podcast because it's

619
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: like we'll take care of it in God's family. And

620
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: the crimes can get bigger and bigger and bigger and

621
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: it's a disaster.

622
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 5: It is a little like let's like not embarrass ourselves.

623
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 5: Like that is kind of like the way it felt

624
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 5: at the time. And because I was like eleven and

625
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 5: like being and I was getting this information, like I

626
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 5: feel like I had to grow up very fast in

627
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 5: a lot of ways because of sort of like being

628
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 5: in this church and like being such a focal point

629
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 5: of the community.

630
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: This is a small town.

631
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 5: A lot of churches in this small town, though, and

632
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 5: like there's a Baptist church, there's a Lutheran church, there's

633
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 5: a Methodist church, there's another Baptist church, there's a smaller

634
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 5: Pentecostal church. There was our church, like and like being

635
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 5: one of several pastor's kids like kind of had a

636
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 5: bit of a spotlight on me at times. But like, yeah,

637
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 5: there was just all this sort of like chaos happening

638
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 5: like the first year that we were there. And so

639
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 5: my dad, who did not want to come and be

640
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 5: the pastor of this church, initially was like I'm not

641
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 5: coming to do this, I'm coming to run this school.

642
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 5: Like less than a year in is now the pastor

643
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 5: of the church, and then remain there for until twenty nineteen.

644
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: And I imagine you have like a very window into

645
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: the going behind the scenes from just kind of overhearing

646
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: things within that.

647
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, in a big way. And my parents were They

648
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 5: were very honest. They were very open and honest with

649
00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 5: me about what was going on to do degree of which,

650
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 5: like I think back on now and I'm like, I

651
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 5: didn't need to know all.

652
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: Of this, right, and like to.

653
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 5: Their credit, what I will say to my parents' credit,

654
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 5: like later in life, like my dad has apologized to

655
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 5: me for things of like things that he said or

656
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 5: you know, things that they sort of let me in

657
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 5: on that Like I just didn't need to know as

658
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 5: like a teenager who was like like discovering girls and

659
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 5: like learning to play instruments and skateboarding, Like I just

660
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 5: didn't need to Like, yeah, wasn't my responsibility, you know

661
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 5: it did.

662
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 3: I did feel very responsible for things because I was

663
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 3: a part of this family right and part of the church.

664
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

665
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: I have to imagine being a pastor's kid, like and

666
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: only child and only child. My god, that's so much pressure.

667
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: You have to be the good, good boy all the time. Yeah.

668
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: I want to know more about doctor Barner because he

669
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: had prophecies.

670
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that was a big part of like a

671
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 5: regular like Sunday service. Like if doctor Varner was was there,

672
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 5: because sometimes he was traveling.

673
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: I was sorry, just to clarify when we say doctor,

674
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: this is not medical doctor.

675
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, like a doctor of theology, doctor

676
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 5: in theology. Right, Like my dad is technically a reverend,

677
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 5: but he doesn't call it like he doesn't he never

678
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 5: had people call him reverend like he was always just

679
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 5: like pastor Ward.

680
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

681
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 5: So this, I mean, this is a big part of

682
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 5: like a like a regular Sunday service. So we'd start

683
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 5: at like ten am with like opening like notes, and

684
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 5: this is what's going on like this week, and you know,

685
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 5: like because we would do a lot of stuff in

686
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 5: the community, things like that, like our youth group had

687
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 5: Friday night hangtime.

688
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: Oh lucky you, Friday night hangtime.

689
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 5: Exactly what I need to do come back to the

690
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 5: church on Friday night. And then we would do praise

691
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 5: and worship, which I played drums that I learn it

692
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 5: play drums uh in the church band. And we would

693
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 5: do like a couple of songs and like however, the

694
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 5: spirit sort of moved like sometimes we'd never even get

695
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 5: to like the actual stop sermon. Yeah, like fairly often,

696
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 5: like it would just we just end up in praise

697
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 5: and worship for like two hours with people like grabbing

698
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 5: the mic being like I've got a word from the

699
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 5: Lord or like I'm hearing something, or like oftentimes there

700
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 5: was another sort of like associate pastor in the church

701
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 5: that would like, have me do like drum I'm not kidding,

702
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 5: what have me do drum solos as like a ministry.

703
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, wow, like a sound.

704
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 5: Bath, like a really yeah, with a lot of like

705
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 5: toms involved. But uh so oftentimes like doctor Varner would

706
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 5: come up and he would he he also played the saxophone,

707
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 5: and so he would come like sometimes you do like

708
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 5: a saxophone solo, or like he'd come and sing prophecies

709
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 5: to people or which.

710
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: Sounds great, it sounds fun, yeah, but seeing.

711
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: Prophecy, Yeah, yeah, that was a big part.

712
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: What's an example of this?

713
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 5: Okay, the one that has stuck with me and like

714
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 5: essentially just sort of haunted me for.

715
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,479
Speaker 3: Uh the better part of Oh my god, how long ago?

716
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 3: Almost twenty years now, I guess.

717
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 5: So in two thousand and nine before he passed, like

718
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 5: two or three months before he passed, there was one

719
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 5: morning it was the Oh it was the graduation service

720
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 5: that was always a big deal, Like for like the

721
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 5: high school graduates were getting read to graduate and I

722
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 5: was getting ready to graduate me in a couple others,

723
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 5: and in the service, like he came to me and

724
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 5: saying a prophecy that was verbatim. You think you're just

725
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 5: going to school. Your life has always been under my rule.

726
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 5: The next seven years, I'll give you all you need.

727
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: And so this is like, you think your life is

728
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: just going to school, you're actually.

729
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 3: Under Yeah, fully I can them.

730
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: I forgot it.

731
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: Seven years.

732
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 3: The next seven years, I'll give you all you need.

733
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: The next seven years will give you all you need.

734
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 3: Fairly close. He had a way deeper voice, but that

735
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 3: was pretty good. Years will give you all you need.

736
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 5: Yes, And you're like what in my mind, I'm like, awesome, fuck, yeah,

737
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 5: I'm set by twenty sixteen.

738
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: Awesome. That stuck with me for a really really long time.

739
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: Oh good, duh, Like what did you think that that meant?

740
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 3: No fucking idea. I wasn't even eighteen at the time.

741
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 3: I didn't know.

742
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 5: You'd be like, sir, this is a Wendy's Yeah.

743
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: I mean it's not nice.

744
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 5: It does, Yes, it does in theory, You're like, wow,

745
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 5: that's great, but like that's the dangerous part of some

746
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 5: of this stuff is like some of these like quote

747
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 5: prophetic words would be like do this go here, leave.

748
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: This, marry this person, do this, have this child.

749
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: It's like, what's that predictor telling people what to do with?

750
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, as like this is the word from the Lord.

751
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 5: I'm tapped into a source. I have this like link

752
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 5: from here to here, and this is a word from

753
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 5: the Lord, and you're so enraptured in it to the

754
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 5: point where you're like, Okay, well that's got to be it.

755
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 5: So like for seven years, I like even after I

756
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 5: had left the church and like walked away from religion entirely,

757
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 5: that that message.

758
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 3: Stuck with me.

759
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 5: It still sticks to me to this day where I'm like,

760
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 5: well did I well, like what did I what happened

761
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 5: in twenty sixteen? Like what did I do here? What

762
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 5: did I do there? Like that like haunted me for

763
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:40,959
Speaker 5: a really long time.

764
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: Well you said that in these service like what is

765
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: it praise and worship? In praise and worship, yeah, like

766
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: everyone people would just kind of grab the mic, So

767
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: like would that be that? Did that mean? Like anyone

768
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 2: could have a prophecy.

769
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty much like there wasn't much of a filter.

770
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this could go wrong and it's so wrong.

771
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean in a way, it's like more

772
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 2: equitable because in most coldes, the prophet's the only one

773
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 2: who can have the prophecy, right, or the leader, and

774
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 2: that you know, people get drunk on that power. On

775
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 2: this one, like what if people had two conflicting prophecies

776
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 2: at the same time.

777
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 3: What would happen?

778
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 5: Oh, that happened all the time, it did. Oh yeah,

779
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 5: Oh my god, yeah, that would happen all the time.

780
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 5: Like people would come up and say something very specific.

781
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I just remembered one. It was Super

782
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 3: Bowl Sunday.

783
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 5: Timely and the Carolina Panthers were in the Super Bowls

784
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 5: So whatever year that was, I don't remember it. And

785
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 5: doctor Varner was preaching that day and like he this

786
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 5: is so burned in my brain. He could feel like

787
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 5: the energy sort of like shifting in the room, like

788
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 5: he was kind of like losing people. They weren't paying

789
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 5: attention because this Super Bowl Sunday, you want to get

790
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 5: home and get your stuff prepped and like having a party, YadA,

791
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 5: YadA yadda, and he just went Panther's gonna win by

792
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 5: fourteen they lost.

793
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 3: So I was like, man, is all of this bullshit?

794
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 3: Is he just saying this stuff to me? Wow?

795
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: Did you like how old were you wish?

796
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: Oh that I would have been? I was a teenager,

797
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 3: like probably like fourteen. Did you believe in him for

798
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 3: like a long time? Yeah?

799
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: Did you believe in him when he said that? And

800
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 2: was that something that put a crack in your face?

801
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 3: That stuff like that?

802
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 5: Was when was where I really started to kind of

803
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 5: question things. I remember very distinctly when I was, uh,

804
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 5: probably fifteen, I was probably like fifteen or sixteen.

805
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 3: I asked my dad.

806
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 5: I asked my dad if I could go to First

807
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 5: Baptist Church, which was literally across the street. I wanted

808
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 5: to go there for a little while because I think

809
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 5: I had like a crush on.

810
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: Like course, that's why you wanted to go there.

811
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: I think it was one of the Smith twins.

812
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,959
Speaker 1: Oh my god, my mom was a Smith twin.

813
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 3: Oh was it her? It might have been her. That's

814
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: your mom is a Smith twin. Wait, she's a twin

815
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 3: and her last name is Smith?

816
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: Said she identical? Yes, your mom's an identical twin. Yes,

817
00:39:59,000 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: I don't know that.

818
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and their last time of Smith anyway.

819
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: This was not your mind.

820
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 1: Maybe it was. It wasn't because she was not there.

821
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: Exactly.

822
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 5: I wanted to go to this church because like I

823
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 5: think one of the Smith's wins went there, and like

824
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 5: I was obsessed, and I remember asking my dad, was like, Dad,

825
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 5: could I go to this church? And he has since

826
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 5: apologized for this, so to preface that, he said, verbatim,

827
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 5: if you go to another.

828
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 3: Church, I'll have to quit my job. WHOA.

829
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 5: And I remember being like, hmmm, why, And he said,

830
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 5: because it will show that I.

831
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 3: Am not the leader of my family.

832
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 5: But I'm I'm going to butcher what he said exactly.

833
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 5: But he was like I don't have control sort of

834
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 5: over you know, over over my own house, like there's

835
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 5: a break in my house. And that like shook me

836
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 5: to my core. So it must have been younger. It

837
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 5: was like thirteen or fourteen probably at the time.

838
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: Shook you how like you were like.

839
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 5: Like I was like, oh my god, Like that's so

840
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 5: you're right, this is so important, like I'm a crucial

841
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 5: part of this, like I'm the chosen.

842
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 3: One, right or whatever.

843
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 5: It really like solidified to me, just sort of this

844
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 5: this fear that you know, any decision I made would

845
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 5: affect our family life as a whole, right, Yeah, which

846
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 5: is this really scary thing to like to think about.

847
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: You know, I always think about the difference between people

848
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: who grew up with no religion and people who grew

849
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: up with religion because these like very intense prophecies and

850
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: responsibilities are putting are being put on you that other

851
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: people don't understand at all. It's like living in game

852
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: up thrones versus just living right a completely different world.

853
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 5: This is something I deal with my wife, who grew

854
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 5: up like with zero religion. I think she went to

855
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 5: church like two times in her life, and so like

856
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 5: trying to explain that to her is like it's taken

857
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 5: a long time to like explain what this is, or

858
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 5: like show her clips or show her music videos of

859
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 5: stuff I used to watch, or like like because it's

860
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 5: a whole of the world. But to me, I was like,

861
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 5: everybody's like this, right, which is sort of inherent in

862
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 5: like a cult mentality, is like, oh, this is what

863
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 5: everybody should think and this is the way it should be.

864
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 6: One hundred and thirty two rooms, one hundred and fifty

865
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 6: seven suspects, one dead body, one wildly eccentric detective, one

866
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 6: disastrous state dinner, and at the center of it all,

867
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 6: a case unlike any other. The new Netflix series The

868
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 6: Residence is a screwball who Done It? Set in the

869
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 6: White House from Shondaland, The series features an all star

870
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 6: cast led by Uzo Aduba as Cordelia Cup, the most

871
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 6: sought after detective in the world. Watch The Residence March twentieth,

872
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 6: only on Netflix.

873
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: So, so, okay, doctor Varner. Did he have a direct

874
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: line to God more than other people though, despite that

875
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: other people could have prophecies?

876
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's certainly what it seemed like. I mean, you know,

877
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 5: we founded this church. He was like a mainstay, starting

878
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 5: in like West Virginia and then moving down to North

879
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 5: Carolina for the better part of like thirty years. You know,

880
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 5: that church had you know, praised Tabernacle had been there

881
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 5: for since the eighties.

882
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 3: I think I think it was established in the eighties.

883
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 5: And so, you know, and like his his kids still

884
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 5: you know, kind of like run his his ministry because

885
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 5: he wrote a lot of books and you know, he

886
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 5: had a lot of tapes and CDs, and DVDs and

887
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 5: things like that, and so his you know, his family

888
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 5: kind of sort of runs that what would you call it,

889
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 5: like many empire, like an archive or sure, yeah, of

890
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 5: some sorty you know, and people still like quote him

891
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 5: a lot, and you know, use his books. So yeah,

892
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 5: there was definitely something about the way that he would

893
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 5: talk about his communication with God that seemed like he

894
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 5: was way more connected.

895
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 2: You know.

896
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 5: It was definitely like implied that what he said went

897
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 5: because he had this you know, direct source, this direct line,

898
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 5: and he would.

899
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 2: Tell people what to do with like big life decisions

900
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: and stuff.

901
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 3: He would aggressively advise.

902
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 5: Ah.

903
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 3: I think that's maybe the way that I would put it.

904
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 5: To the point that like I went to I mean

905
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 5: I went to a Christian university for the first semester

906
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 5: of college because like I had been kind of like

907
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 5: dollying back and forth between like two places to go,

908
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 5: and I ended up going to this this church earth,

909
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 5: not this church, sorry, this university in Lakeland called Southeastern University,

910
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 5: which is a Assemblies of God University, which is an

911
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 5: other denomination, because he had like advised me to do that.

912
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: You know, it was like a major life decision and

913
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 3: I was.

914
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 5: Horribly depressed, and I dropped out after a semester and

915
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 5: like was brutal. I like tried to take my own

916
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 5: life at that time. It's the thing I'm very open about.

917
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 5: I talk about like very publicly. It's not something that

918
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 5: I've I've hidden. It's but like because I was really

919
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 5: struggling with like who I was, because I'd been so

920
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 5: ingrained in this space and it was the first time

921
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 5: i'd like broken out and was like got to like

922
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 5: sort of experience the world for myself. But yeah, he

923
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 5: was very strong willed. I mean he had he was

924
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 5: very like performative, you know, like he was really charismatic,

925
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 5: like even if you didn't really know what he was

926
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 5: talking about or you know, understood the references. Like, I mean,

927
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 5: he had this like dense knowledge of the Bible to

928
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 5: the point where like he could pull scripture and he

929
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 5: could pull the the original Greek and what it meant

930
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 5: and how it translated in the various different you know,

931
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 5: in interpretation of the Bible, because there's you know, hundreds,

932
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 5: you know, there's King James new International, There's there's a

933
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 5: very popular one in the early two thousands called The Message,

934
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 5: which was basically somebody like essentially like through the Bible

935
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 5: into chat GPT.

936
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 3: And was like talk to me like you're like a

937
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 3: cool youth passion.

938
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's his interesting. I mean I wouldn't

939
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 2: you know, say it sounds he sounds like a traditional

940
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 2: cult leader or anything. But I find it's almost like

941
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: a there's still a special knowledge thing going on that's

942
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 2: not necessarily like he is the literal prophet, but like

943
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: he is so educated, yes, and he knows so much

944
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: more than you do.

945
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: About the Bible talking to him, Yeah, that's pretty intense.

946
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, although was God God talked to everyone.

947
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like I guess he had more of like

948
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 3: a direct line.

949
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: Right right, right, you guys are more on like a

950
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: party line.

951
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly, like like we were playing like a

952
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 5: game of te essentially, right.

953
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: So what were his main beliefs do you mean, like

954
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: in terms.

955
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: Of like what he was saying? Yeah, like what what

956
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 2: what was his what were the churches?

957
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, beliefs.

958
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 3: It was based in like a kingdom mentality. Oh that's cool.

959
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 3: It was essentially like based in a kingdom mentality, wherein I.

960
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: Had no idea what that means.

961
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know it sounds cool. It does

962
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: in a kingdom.

963
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 5: Wherein there was like this sort of like upper echelon

964
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 5: like sort of again I was talking about like the

965
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 5: lower middle and the upper room being like this, like

966
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 5: you know, removing the veil between like yourself and God.

967
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 5: Finding this like it was kind of about like finding

968
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 5: your own direct line. So there was sort of this

969
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 5: like power instilled in people too, like like you could

970
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 5: be like me. You could be like me, which is

971
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 5: like like a very popular thing in terms of like

972
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 5: a cult mentality of like you could be just like me,

973
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 5: Like if you worked hard enough, and if you study

974
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 5: hard enough, and if you allowed yourself to sort of

975
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:06,439
Speaker 5: commune with Christ the way that I do, you would

976
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 5: be as in tuned.

977
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: But I imagine that sets up that kind of moving

978
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: goalpost that we always see where you're like, I'm not

979
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: hearing God's voice in my head, so this is I

980
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: must be what's wrong with me?

981
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 2: Yes, what's wrong with you?

982
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: He's wrong with me?

983
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 5: Why?

984
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: Why?

985
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 5: Oh?

986
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 3: Yeah?

987
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 5: I mean that was something that I struggle with a lot, because,

988
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 5: like I just I felt like I really started to

989
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 5: kind of like see the cracks early on and start

990
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 5: to see the seems to where I was like, oh this,

991
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 5: I like don't buy this because it seems like they're

992
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 5: constantly kind of like shifting what that actually means. And

993
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 5: I didn't fully understand what they were talking about when

994
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 5: I say, like every church service like kind of felt

995
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 5: like a collegiate level, like a master's level collegiate course

996
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 5: on theology.

997
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 3: Like that's what I mean, Like I it would I would.

998
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 5: Struggle to like like give you like an example of

999
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 5: like what a standard church service was like, because it

1000
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 5: was so dense and it was so focused on like

1001
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 5: the Old Testament and interpretation. But that was his way

1002
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 5: of sort of explaining that, you know, this is how

1003
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 5: I commune and this is how I have gained this understanding,

1004
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 5: this this this ability to communicate with God the way

1005
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 5: that I do is because of the knowledge that I.

1006
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 2: Have right, And I think often with this kind of group,

1007
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 2: the point is sort of, whether consciously or not, to

1008
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 2: confuse the congregation, because if you have all of the

1009
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 2: answers and it's confusing, then they will defer to you

1010
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: for answers and guidance and authority.

1011
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean like the level to which like

1012
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 5: I felt like I was like, am I not getting it?

1013
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 5: Is something wrong with me? Kind of going back to

1014
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 5: what you were saying, like really came to a head

1015
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 5: when we would have these like we would have these conferences.

1016
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 5: We'd have like you know, like spring and Summer conference.

1017
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 5: Like Summer Conference was like a really big was a

1018
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 5: really big deal because these other churches that were sort

1019
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 5: of a part of this like unofficial denomination of like

1020
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 5: Kingdom Church, Kingdom Living, Kingdom Life would all congregate. These

1021
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 5: are churches sort of in like Virginia, South Carolina, other

1022
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 5: parts of North Carolina.

1023
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 3: They would all sort of in the southeast would sort of.

1024
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 5: Converge on our church in the summer for like a

1025
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 5: like Coachella of you know pastors in the Southeast region.

1026
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 2: You told me a story about yes, please please relay

1027
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 2: some of the activities that would happen.

1028
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 5: Okay, So Summer Conference was later say it was like

1029
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 5: a it was like a festival essentially, like all these

1030
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 5: different churches would come into town to be like you know,

1031
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 5: three hundred people like packed into the church and all

1032
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 5: these different pastors would come and it would be like

1033
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 5: Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday morning, Saturday night,

1034
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 5: Sunday morning. Sometimes a Sunday night, and so what is

1035
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 5: that There was like seven services like all in a row,

1036
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 5: and like we would, there'd be a different pastor every night,

1037
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 5: and Friday night was like the get down night, like

1038
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 5: shit's gonna pop off.

1039
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 3: It's Friday night. Everything's gonna happen, like this is the

1040
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 3: big night.

1041
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 5: Same with every other you know service, we'd start with

1042
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 5: like praison worship and then there'd be, you know, a sermon.

1043
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 5: But Friday Night, rarely do we ever get to the

1044
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 5: sermon because it was just like everybody's locked in. There's

1045
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 5: banners and ribbons flying around, like the music's going like

1046
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 5: and people are prophesying. Well one night and this also

1047
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 5: just so happened to be the night that we had

1048
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 5: new neighbors moving across the street from us. Yeah, invited

1049
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 5: them to come that night. Never forget this. During praison worship,

1050
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 5: I'm playing drums and so I'm like in like a

1051
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 5: drum cage in the corner of the room and I

1052
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 5: can just like see everything, Like the church was essentially

1053
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 5: built like a like a rectangle, okay, And I was

1054
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 5: in one of the corners and you could just see everything.

1055
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 5: So a bird's eye view this one pastor who is

1056
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 5: kind of the youth pastor who would come in you know,

1057
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 5: from I think he was based in West Virginia or Virginia.

1058
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 3: He comes over to my dad, who is now.

1059
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 5: The pastor of the church at the time, and you know,

1060
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 5: doctor Varner is obviously there as well. Everybody's in. You know,

1061
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 5: it's like the Avengers of you know, of pastors.

1062
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 3: This guy comes up to my dad and he's like,

1063
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 3: the Lord has told me to do something. And he's

1064
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 3: like what.

1065
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 5: He's like, the Lord told me to ride my motorcycle

1066
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 5: through the church. And they whipped open the doors on

1067
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 5: both ends, and he rode his motorcycle through the church

1068
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 5: like he was Ryan Gosling at the beginning of placement

1069
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 5: in the Pines, just zipping through and everybody losing their shit.

1070
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 5: This is amazing. Oh my god, God is great. This

1071
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 5: is so wonderful. And I'm like, We're never going to

1072
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 5: see these neighbors again. I'm just like in a panic

1073
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 5: of just like what's happening, what their faces look like.

1074
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm playing drums, so like I'm like i

1075
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 5: gotta I gotta stay in time, like what's happen. But

1076
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 5: I'm just like what's happening, because like I had headphones

1077
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 5: on so I could hear everything. I could hear microphones,

1078
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 5: and like they're all speaking in tongues, and just I think.

1079
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: I would use this for so much evil if I

1080
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: were on this, I think I'd be like, God wants

1081
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: me to get a bunch of toys and you should

1082
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: make out with me. That is what Scott's telling me.

1083
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 5: I really didn't utilize this the way they probably should

1084
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 5: have that abusive power. I didn't even think about that,

1085
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 5: Oh the amount of like Max Steele and g I Joe.

1086
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 1: First see myself doing that. Did anybody ever kind of

1087
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: like ask for things that were I don't know, like

1088
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: a Christmas wish list?

1089
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 3: I think I remember.

1090
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 5: I think I remember, like because again, like it was

1091
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 5: sort of a free for all a lot of times,

1092
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 5: so like you know, you come and talk to past

1093
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 5: Reward and like he'll give you the mic you know,

1094
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 5: Like my dad was a lot better about like using

1095
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 5: some discretion of giving.

1096
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 3: The microphone to just what everybody. There was one horse in.

1097
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 5: Our church who like would would really just kind of

1098
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 5: go off the rails and just start like kind of weeping.

1099
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 5: There's a lot of like tears and emotion because like

1100
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 5: it's a very like it's a heightened state, you know.

1101
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 3: Do you remember, like.

1102
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 5: I think, like a kid taking the mic or something

1103
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 5: and like making something up about like his like baseball

1104
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 5: game or something like I'm going to hit a home

1105
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 5: run like the Lords told me, I'm going to hit

1106
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 5: over Yeah. Yeah, which probably didn't happen. Panthers didn't win

1107
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 5: the Super Bowl.

1108
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,399
Speaker 2: So okay, big thanks to Caleb for joining us, and

1109
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 2: we love you, Caleb, We do love you, Caleb Megan.

1110
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 4: Yes, if you were Caleb's age.

1111
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 2: In the early two thousands and you came across this church, yeah,

1112
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 2: in this community and culture, what do you think would

1113
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: you join?

1114
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think I would really like it. As we

1115
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: identified in the episode, I love speaking in tongues. I

1116
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: love a good Christian Disney World Land experience. Anything youth

1117
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 1: groupie is super fun in my opinion, So yeah, I'm gone.

1118
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: I'm what about you?

1119
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 2: I think I think it would depend on the context

1120
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 2: going in, because you know, like you growing up church

1121
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: was very.

1122
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 8: Solemn and like yeah quiet and like no one was

1123
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 8: doing anything loud at all borings, So when I like

1124
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 8: would see that happening in other people's churches, I'd be

1125
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 8: kind of like freaked out.

1126
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 2: So I don't know that I would join, right, But

1127
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 2: but if I were just a regular girl and saw

1128
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 2: people doing stuff that was exciting, like probably who knows, Okay, Yeah.

1129
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: Well I think that's fair, and uh, we can't know

1130
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: for sure either way, but I do see some version

1131
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: of my and one reality at a Christian Disneylander right now, bring.

1132
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 4: In a back to go, all right.

1133
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: Big thank you to Caleb for coming on the show.

1134
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,280
Speaker 1: Thank y'all for listening. Please go rate us five stars,

1135
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: Go buy a T shirt, have some fun with that.

1136
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 2: Bit dot l y slash, trust me merch that's right,

1137
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1138
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 2: for red flax.

1139
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 4: And never ever trust me. Bye.

1140
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1141
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 2: Steve Della Lamiter.

1142
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 1: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1143
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1144
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1145
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult pod, or on TikTok at

1146
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1147
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and o La Lola on Twitter.

1148
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1149
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1150
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the words

1151
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 6: M hmm.