WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: Sam Hollander 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:09.039 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.680 Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Questlove Supreme. 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.520 I'm not Questlove or Supreme, but it is an honor 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.680 to be here Today's especial. Today we are doing one 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.760 on ones. I suppose no Team Supreme, just me Unpaid 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.360 Bill and we can get into why I called Unpaid 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:29.720 Bill if you like, because it's just me so I 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:31.960 have a lot of time to talk about myself in 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:36.240 other news. Today's guest is I will say, one of 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.840 the most interesting, enigmatic, incredible people I have ever met 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:42.560 in my life, and we have only known each other 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:44.640 for like what like a year and a half. Maybe 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.600 let's just go with it. Okay, I had this whole 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:49.520 big intro plan, but I think we should just get 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:55.360 into it. Today's guest is songwriter, producer, composer, top liner, father, husband, 0:00:55.760 --> 0:01:00.960 and all around incredible human being. Sam Hollander. Yes, Ca, okay, 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.240 here we call your name is Sam. My name is Sam, 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.280 So Sam. I suppose you've listened to a few Quest 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.440 Love Supremes over time, couple. Okay, you know when they 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:12.399 asked me to do a one on one, the first 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.200 person I thought it was you because people don't necessarily 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:16.959 I mean, you did write a book about yourself, which 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:17.679 was a nice touch. 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:18.600 I thoughts up for. 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:22.119 Just you know, so people would know who you are, 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.600 but you are responsible for so many things that I 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:26.760 don't think the majority of listeners may or may not know. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:28.679 And so I thought we'd get into them all. And 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.959 I think my favorite way to start all quest Love Supremes, 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.280 which is the most way, is where were you born? 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.200 Well, let me just start off by saying, it is 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:41.120 an honor to be Questlove Supreme. I know you were 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:45.320 looking for mid season summer replacements, and I feel like 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.240 I'm sort of like Stephen Botchko's nineteen ninety cop Rock 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.160 right or you know it was. It was highly heralded 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.240 and then forgettable. And that's sort of the story of 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.360 my life. So I was born in New York City, Bill. 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:03.160 I was born in New York City, and uh through 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:05.280 some of the darker times in the city. It was 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:09.360 a very violent, violent place, and my parents ushered me 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.760 out of here to Westchester County, and eventually, through lots 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.320 of stops and starts, I ended up in Bedford Hills, 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:20.359 New York, site of the Bedford Hills Correctional Women's Correctional Prison. 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.600 You might remember Gene Harris who murdered the Scarsdale diet doctor. 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.080 She would have been one of the many I would 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:29.960 I would remember that. Do they call him tenants? 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:31.520 Inmates? 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:36.400 Inmates? I like tenants better. Bedford Hills attended fox Lane 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.799 High School. You might know it from Dukes of Hazzard's 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:44.280 John Schneider bo Duke was in fact a fox Laner, 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.920 as well as Susan Day from the Partridge family, KIMMYA. Dawson, 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.000 Moldy Peaches, MRSA Winaker. The list goes on and on. 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.320 Are you here to speak on behalf of Fox Lene schools? 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.120 It's like a recruiting tread. I'm here for That's what 0:02:58.160 --> 0:02:58.600 I'm doing. 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.160 Sam. Yes, what is your first musical memory as a child? 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.360 Because you have. For those who don't know, Sam wrote 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.200 a book, and I highly recommend reading the book for 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:08.840 two reasons. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:10.040 It's a salacious tell all. 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:13.600 It is a salacious tell all from a very silacious life. 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.160 Lad No. The best part about your book, in my 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:18.440 personal humble opinion, is not only that it's you have 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.239 an incredible story and it's almost impossible to believe any 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.400 of it to be honest. I mean, but there's parts 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.440 in it, and this is important. There are parts in 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.560 it that any producer, anyone interested in music, any engineer 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.920 or mixer, or anybody who even wants to be anywhere 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:39.480 near music and needs a piece of advice, an unsolicited 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:41.320 piece of advice, and not like in a dickhead way, 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.720 like in a I've lived this life and I'm going 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:45.400 to tell you about it and how to get there. 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.200 There are what you call what is it called in 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:50.960 the book footnotes, Yeah, the footnotes, and there's other things 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:51.560 you put in. 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.000 The bonus cuts. Bonus cut. 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:55.920 All the bonus cuts are these parts of these random 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.160 paragraphs in the book where it's just pieces of advice. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.200 Like some of them are go to events that as 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:04.280 kap or B and my sponsor and meet people. And 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.440 I think there's a lot of the book is about 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.440 networking and talking to people and what I like to 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.480 call the other side of our job, which is like 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.240 the bullshit. Well, you can be the greatest writer, the 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.680 greatest musician of all time. If you're a dick and 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:19.120 no one wants to hang out with you, then no 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:20.560 one's going to hire you to do anything. 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.040 I learned something pretty early on, right, So I mean, 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:25.960 I'll get back to earliest musical memory. But I did 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.440 learn something early on when I started to have any 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:33.160 morsel of success. Jonathan Daniel, who owns Crush Management, is 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.720 one of my best friends and really my mentor in 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.480 many ways. One day, I was melting down about something 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.680 and I can get kind of fiery, and he took 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:44.960 me for a walk and he put it in such 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.720 succinct terms. He said, you know, everybody likes happy Sam, 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.240 nobody likes angry Sam. And I walked away from that 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.440 and it was like a Yoda moment, you know, and 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.000 it dawned on me. Likability is something and I never 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.880 really took stock in it. You know, I'm genuinely curious 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.359 about people. I like people. I'm pretty social and I 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.200 root for people and I think I always have to 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:16.960 some extent. And you know, in the music business, that's 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.119 something they don't tell you. It's important, is be curious 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.159 about other people and cheer for their victories even when 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:28.039 you're losing, because there will be a moment where the 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.680 tables turn and you will have your moment and when 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.839 you finally sort of actualize whatever it is that you're chasing. 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:37.440 It's just such an incredible feeling to know that people 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.760 are actually rooting for you and not shooting darts at you. 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.640 So that was my little sidebar. But let's get back 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.479 to let me get back to the genesis of it. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:50.000 The first song I ever heard was Magic by Pilot, 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.960 which I believe is the ozembic song now, but before 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:59.239 before it was pressuring, you know, an era of weight loss. 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.760 It was the first first song I ever heard. I 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.719 think my brother had the forty five, and you know, 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:08.039 I was completely hooked, and I took guitar lessons. I 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.039 started guitar lessons at seven with a woman who was 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:14.440 in the fast folk movement in Grawich Village and she 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:16.080 was really rad. I took a guitar for a few 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.039 years and I quit, and I do it again, and 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.839 I quit, and even today I have like five chords 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.680 at my disposal. I think it doesn't really work with 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:30.160 my ADHD. My hyper focus doesn't exist outside of lyrically, 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:32.680 so it's very hard for me. But I do fumble 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.320 with it and I use it in the writing process, 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.640 as we'll discuss. But you know, the Magic song was 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.280 interesting because that was this weird gateway drug to k 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.960 Tel Records, and I got really into k Tel records, which, 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:48.800 for those of you who are too young to appreciate, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:51.280 sort of worthy equivalent of the now, that's what they 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.960 call music series or any sort of compilation of current hits. 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.200 But in the seventies, when I was this little kid, 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.320 very tiny, they these k Tel records. They would mix 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.080 genres sometimes, so you'd have pop hits that would and 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.200 it would be solo songs, disco songs, rock songs on 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.640 the same record. And that's how I first heard music, 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:12.760 and that's still how I hear music. So I've never 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.280 really been genre specific. I always hear it as like 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.720 this weird amorphous just grouping of genres and sounds, you know, 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.720 And so that was it for me. I also became 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.680 a huge fan of the notion of a three minute song, right, 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.400 and that's my attention span, which is why I don't 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.040 make jam band records, you know what I mean. So 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.240 I have we'll get to that, well, we'll get there, 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.240 but yeah, I have three minutes of my disposal and 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.640 that's where my attention wear was off. So you know, 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.720 I was just exposed to so many different quote unquote 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.040 genre as at a young age, and I loved all of it. 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:49.400 And I always envisioned songs dressed up in any any fashion. 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.040 I never really so when I heard a disco record, 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.119 it wasn't the notion of the four on the floor 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:55.880 and the sort of the pounding beat. It was just 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:57.600 the song and the structure and stuff like that that 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.280 I fell in love with. And I've taken that into 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.400 everything i've done since. It doesn't matter what the assignment 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.960 is or who I'm working with. I just strip all 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.280 the noise and anything extraneous about it, and I just 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.440 take it primarly to what is the basic song in 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.840 the smallest shape, and let me figure out how to 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.400 dress it up. And that comes from just being exposed 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.240 to tons and tons of genres very young. 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.520 So your family is an interesting story, and we don't 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:24.880 have to go too deep into it, but I'm very interested. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:25.960 They like me. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.960 No, well, you're already ahead of the game. I'm interested 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.240 in musical families. A lot of the families, or a 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:33.679 lot of the people we talked to you in this 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.040 line of work grew up in churches which we clearly 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.720 did not, and or like come from families where music 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:41.839 is a big thing. I know you quote your brother 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:43.840 as like, you know, turning you on too music. I 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:45.800 was just telling before about how my sister doesn't even 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.000 listen to music. I know your parents were hippies and 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:49.640 Da da da da, my preio. 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.440 Like almost before hippies, they were rad man, they were 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.480 a generation before that, but they were incredible artists. 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.640 But good yeah, sorry, And like my parents were doctors 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.280 and my dad like smooth jazz. Mom likes Mandy Patinkin, 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.560 which is also fitting, but moving on, it's. 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:04.320 Also kind of awesome. 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:05.960 It's also that part of it is great. I'm not 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.040 gonna lie and yoyo ma, those are her two fixtures. 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:10.920 But talk to me about how your family and how 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.760 your brother's record collection I believe affected your overall. 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:17.040 Yeah, you know, I owe a lot of it to 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.320 my brother. You know my brother, you know, when we 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.080 grew up, he was listening to a lot of seventies stuff, 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:24.600 and he was listening to a lot of Southern rock 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.280 and all this shit kicker kind of GARYA the Z 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.160 twenty eight, And he used to cruise around listening to 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.840 Mally Hatchet and stuff like that. And I was listening 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:34.679 to tons of disco. So I was on the other 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.400 end of the coin. You know, I wasn't a kiss 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.800 kid as much as I was a Beg's kid, So 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:45.640 you know, I was bullied a lot. But what was 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:48.400 funny about my brother, though my brother went off to college, 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.400 he went to Boston University. In his first semester, he 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.640 became friends, I believe, with the radio DJ who lived 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.080 on his floor at the you know, at the university station. 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.719 My brother came back with crates of vinyl crates, and 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.320 it was all this early new wave, like the two 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:09.920 tone Sky stuff, chronic Town, I believe, murmur, so It's 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.920 gonna be eighty three, murmur, all the Ram stuff, obviously, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.520 the Smith stuff. Like he came back with just this 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.160 incredible knowledge of this music that didn't exist in the 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.360 suburbs where I was, you know, certainly not in sixth 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:25.120 grade or seventh grade. And when he came in and 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:28.160 I was exposed to it, my head fucking exploded. It 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.439 was just this whole other It was like a revolution 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.640 of sound because I, you know, I at that point, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:35.360 I was listening to the Beatles, and I was listening 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.200 to Who and a lot of disco, and then suddenly 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.720 I'm exposed to this entire weird cultural clash of stuff. 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.440 At the same time, hip hop was beginning to happen, 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:49.319 and you know, I had friends who were really in 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.080 a rapper's delight, and you know, we got into all 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.440 the Sugar Hills stuff early on. So we would buy 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:57.319 all those twelves who'd go to stores and just get 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.880 all the twelve inches anything that came out on you know, 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:05.080 Sugar On Prelude or Tommy Boy or you know, Sleeping 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.800 Bag and Fresh, and we would bring back all these records. 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.960 So between the new wave and the hip hop stuff, 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.120 you know, I began to really have a taste level 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.360 for the first time in life where I was really like, 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:17.960 I felt like I was early on stuff as opposed 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:19.439 to just listening to classic rock and stuff. So I 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:24.040 owed my brother immenseally for that. My mom was bad ass, 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.199 because my mom was like this jazz head, you know. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:31.120 So my mom was mingus and all this cool stuff 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.439 and chick Corea and stuff like that. And then my 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.800 dad was really into Brazilian stuff. There was a lot 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:41.559 of stan Getz and with Jilberto. Jill asked Gilberto all 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:45.200 that stuff, and I was exposed to tons of stuff. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:46.960 There's lots of sounds in our house. And me I 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.599 had the mom who was listening to talking heads and 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.840 was listening to what was the record that she really 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.400 she dug, It's gonna Hit Me Again, and it wasn't 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.280 the water Boys, but it was one of these Scottish things, 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.760 and she was just really cool. And so it's funny 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:04.560 because I think I was the least cool of anybody 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.200 in my house, but everybody who's listening to really cool stuff, 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:09.880 and I just, you know, I was, like I said, 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.880 I just absorbed anything around me, and I just was 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:17.280 trying to at all costs just sort of learn learn 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.040 from all of it and combine it. And that was 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.719 the most That's what I look back on growing up. 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.480 I remember, you know, I had two turntables, like two 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.560 techniques at a Gemini mixer, and that was pretty terrible. 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.120 But I loved mixing genres, you know. So I took 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:38.240 the instrumental from Brass Monkey, you know, the Beastie Boys, 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.679 and then I put the Bob o' riley arpeggiated scent 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:42.439 behind her something like that. Like I'd mess around with 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:47.079 different genres, different sounds, and then I learned about Rick 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.480 Rubin from a Village Voice article. A Village Voice wrote 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.200 this piece, He's the king of rock. There is no 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.280 higher sucker. MC should call him sire or something like that. 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.600 It was a Village Voice and it was my senior 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.520 year in high school. And I'm like this colossal. I'm 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.439 graduating the bottom of my grade. I'm djaying at parties, 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.280 I'm singing in a band doing like hohoskerdo and and 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.120 you know which is crazy? You know, do hooskier do covers? 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.400 Just screaming into the mic. And I'm lost. I have 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.280 no idea who I am, but I know I'm a 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.079 music kid, and I'm really trying to figure out. I'm 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.120 writing all this like weird beat poetry stuff. And I 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.559 read the Rick Rubin article and it was about a 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.319 suburban kid from Long Island who had gone into the 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.560 Weinstein dorms at NYU and started a label and he 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.040 basically took what he knew from rock and he'd brought 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.720 it into the dorm and hooked up with hip hopcats. 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.880 And I was doing the Tela rock stuff and I 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.320 was so blown away by it. My head exploded because 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:41.959 I thought, Wow, this is me. I'm one of these 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:46.600 multi genre quote unquote guys. I listened to everything, and 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.120 I sort of have an idea of why the hip 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.760 hop stuff, like why it's resonating at least with my 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.319 friends and stuff. And at the same time, I'm a 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:58.640 rock kid, So that's why that sort of was like 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.760 that that lightning bolt, you know what I mean, Like 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:02.600 that was the moment where I thought, wow, like there's 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.600 a there's a precedent, and I didn't think I could. 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:07.880 I don't really never want to be a producer to 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:10.800 the other Rick Ruben variety. I really wanted to be 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:12.800 more of a top liner. I wan to write lyric 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.280 and melody, but just expose the notion that you could 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.600 get into this from out of nowhere. I didn't understand it. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.120 There was no manual, so I wrote a book. There 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.560 was no manual like coming up now you can watch 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:28.080 you two tutorials on anything. But we grew up like 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:31.080 trying to become like a professional songwriter. There's nothing about that. 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.000 You just had to sort of learn, you know, I 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:35.960 mean Streets of Hills kitchen. 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.720 But like, talk to me about your career and also 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:42.600 generally the way you talk about music is like in 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.440 this totally genrealist thing. I feel like as a person 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.120 who writes music too, I get pigeonholed into certain things 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.800 all the time. It's like, well, you're the sesame street guid, which, 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:52.760 by the way, I'm not saying is a bad thing, but. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:54.480 It's a very sexy call. 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:56.160 I mean, that's how I got you. 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:56.960 I know, here we are. 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.640 It worked, It did fu yeah anyway, but I I 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.000 you know, or like, you work on a theater thing. 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:04.560 In my line of work, it's like you're the music 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.680 theater guy, and I feel like you don't live. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.360 There or you have is it that it's intentional? 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.840 Right, but like, how have you done that? Well? 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:18.280 Because I had the luxury when I came up, you know, 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.560 after attending three colleges and two semesters and crushed education. 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.920 Obviously you can tell you tell so well. I'm a 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:30.520 soub verbally dextra. Just tell tell all the skills that 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:34.240 I have. You know, when I when I moved to 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:36.680 the city, I was living in the in the East village, 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.200 and I started hanging out a bar called Nightingales, which 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.920 is on twelfth and Second, and it was a place 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.760 you didn't need an ID And I started hanging out there. 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.880 I was eighteen with my friend Jake Miller, who was 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:54.840 this incredible singer songwriter, had a band called Xenix twenty five. 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.240 He passed away a long time ago. He's a beautiful soul. 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.640 And Jake and I started hanging out this bar and 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.400 there was the scene of like, you know, sort of 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.840 jam bandy, kind of crunchy, and I describe it, but 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.640 like sort of greasy, sort of cool bands of the 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:12.480 era that were beginning to pop out of there. There 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.240 was Blues Traveler, there was Spin Doctors, There's Maloz. And 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.000 I started hanging around this scene and although musically some 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.440 of it wasn't my thing, I began to notice how 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.240 instantly the industry swooped in signed all the bands, and 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.360 then these bands were immediately pigeonholed into that thing. Right, 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.320 and Blues Traveler have gone on and had incredible careers 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:39.640 and they're dear friends and they've transcended it. But I 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.480 think a lot of these bands got bunched into a scene. 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.040 And I was twenty one, and I could tell that 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:48.160 they were already labeled. You know, I didn't listen to 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.720 hairband stuff in high school. You know, that was sort 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:52.880 of a. That was my big rebellion. I didn't listen 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.200 to hairbands, right, But what I realized about hairbands is, 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.480 you know, the hair band thing was a scene and 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.480 it was probably the most magical time ever for a 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.080 lot of people. And then you know, grunge comes and 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.520 it's eradicated, and I think a lot of people who 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.240 were connected to it had a hard time getting footing. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.920 And that was always my biggest fear, is I love 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.159 this so much. I just never wanted to get to 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:20.960 a point where I was. I was completely intertwined with 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.640 a moment in time, and it was over hard to avoid. 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:29.320 But I've consciously always taken steps in the process to 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.480 go after things that are out of character, outside of 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.720 the box in terms of what people think I can do. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.159 So I'm hard to label. You know, when Panic of 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.600 the Disco happened and High Hopes was this this massive 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.679 world wide number one. The next record I took was 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.720 the OJ's Farewell record. 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:49.760 And really interesting to a lot of people. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.000 Don't do that, and you know, but on purpose, I 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.360 think it was very intentional. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.240 Because you because you didn't want to. My guess is, 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:58.760 if we're going to go okay too, the High Hopes 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.120 business is the minute you wrote High Hopes, ten different 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.800 similar ish pop rock outfits called you or like, we 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.359 want the next High Hopes and you said no, or 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.119 you said I'm doing the OJ's record, which is a 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:10.840 hilarious sense. 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:12.680 Of well, I can be bought, Bill, Let's not lie. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:17.240 So I probably attempted versions of it. But what I 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.400 would say is when you have a moment and you're 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.880 like in the songwriting zeitgeist for a second in time, 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.040 and I've had waves where I've sort of been deeply 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.520 in the mix, in times where I'm an afterthought, the 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.679 one thing I would say is it's just it's strategy. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:32.560 And I think a lot of writers are probably less 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.760 strategic to some extent because maybe they're less calculated humans 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.680 than I am. The probably better people. But what I'm 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.000 going for is I just I'm trying. I look at 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.080 music as this entire sort of weird canvas that's in 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.239 front of me, and I'm trying to paint corners of it, 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.240 and always I want to be able to look at 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.760 it and think I sort of I hit everything I 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.280 thought I was capable of. And you know what, I'm 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.240 not gambling, huff, but man, I lived for those records 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.320 as a kid, and I studied them and I wanted 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.480 one shot to do what I would do with the OJS, 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.399 and I thought that was that would be to me, 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.040 that's cooler than working with any band that wanted, like, 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.080 you know, a assimily of what I've already done. 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.919 Do you look at this like work? Does this feel like? 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:14.439 Do you? Because people ask me this a lot, like 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.800 they think that I you know, we write songs for 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.800 people and kids and enjoyment, and it's creative and all 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.080 creative pursuits. I think to some people are sort of 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.520 just shrouded in like happy and enjoy it's all great 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.160 and whatever, but like it's a fuck ton of work. 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.280 Do you how do you look like? I know, we've thought, 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.960 we talked about this. It's puzzles to your routine, They're puzzles. 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.080 Everything is a puzzle and I'm trying to crack the 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.959 code on a puzzle. And I have, like I do, 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.760 treat it like sport, like a professional athlete in terms 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:48.640 of their seasons. There's training and I'm I'm extremely thorough 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:54.040 and religiously like sort of dialed in when I'm in season, 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.199 and it is work. It's my passion and it's the 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.320 only thing I probably am. I can function as a 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:07.120 capable human doing. But it is work, and it is 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.760 an absolute mind fuck a lot of the time. And 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.159 you know, the business stuff I hate. I'm not business. Ye, 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.280 I don't have that wiring that would have if I 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:20.080 had continue to matriculated some university probably would have helped 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.159 that cause. So I thankfully I'm surrounded by people are 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.439 who are competent humans in a way that I'm not. 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.920 But just the puzzle of song is something that eats 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:31.560 at me twenty four hours a day and where I 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.240 write something and then I relive it in my dreams 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.280 and I constantly am reworking and trying to figure out 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.960 where the flaw is and it can you know, it 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:42.760 just beats me up, you know. And it's one of 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.600 these things where it's such a strange thing to articulate 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.080 because you know, people think, oh, how hard is that? Well, 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:49.800 you know what, it's a voice in your head all 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:51.760 day long where you feel like you're losing your shit, 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.639 where it's just like I'm walking around just singing something 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:57.199 over and over and over and nause even why is 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.840 this not working? And then eventually when it happens, then 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.040 it's no longer work, and it's just it's the greatest 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:03.720 feeling in the world. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.879 Do you feel like this is what your ADHD and 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.119 your anxiety are actual benefits. 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.040 I mean the think about the ADHD is, you know 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.080 they always say, you know, it's it's you know, it's 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.760 your superpowers, your superpower. Yeah, well it wasn't in school, 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.760 so it definitely wasn't a superpower. My parents went to 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.720 ivy universities. I graduated the bottom of my high school 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.359 and did eighteen hours at the University of Pacific in Stockton, California. 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.840 No disrespect, go Tigers or whatever the mascot is. 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:39.720 Eighteen hours. 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:44.000 Eighteen hours. That's true. So you know what's interesting about 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.479 in life? What I found about ADHD it's interesting is 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.240 I do have this strange ability to handle many micro 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.160 assignments at once in song and things like that, where 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.199 I can have like four or five records going at 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.720 once and I'm really laser focused on all of them, 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.760 which is wild and I and then if I just 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.879 have to focus on one, I lose my shit. It's harder. 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.399 It's like I'm better with more plates, like sort of 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:14.440 flying in my hands. So that's a toy even answer 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:14.879 the question. 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.080 Okay, so we talked about college. You went to four 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.000 different colleges, and you did really well at all of them, 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:21.680 as we can tell. I believe Temple was in there 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:26.479 somewhere or something like that. Well, go al, good Philadelphia situation. Anyway, 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.840 So you leave college, you don't, will you? I passed 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:33.040 college on your way to great news. 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:34.960 I was. I was on a semester at sea. 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.160 Sure, oh, like one of those that's good, all right, 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:42.000 like a pirate. So you left college and you moved 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:43.320 to New York. 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.400 I'm in New York City. The last school I attended 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:47.600 was NYU. 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.440 And following Rick Rubin, following. 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:55.159 Rick Rubin at n YU, and it wasn't what I expected. 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.280 And I delve in that in my best selling book, 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:03.480 I Want To Under Matt Holt ben Bella books available 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:05.159 at a local Barnes and Noble or any chain you have, 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:06.440 or on Amazon. 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:08.160 And I will say, I don't read books. It's the 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.240 first book I've read in ten years, and it was fantastic. 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:12.840 I read it in eight hours and I loved her 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:13.359 a minute of it. 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:15.040 People say that to me a lot. Bill People say 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:16.480 it was a very fast read. Now I don't know 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:16.800 how to. 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:18.720 Take that mean if they loved it. 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:21.440 I feel like, you know, I have a friend who's 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.119 a speed reader. She's actually really a speed reader, and 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.400 she's like, it's amazing. I thought, well, you spent six 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:28.560 minutes on it, what was your takeaway? 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:30.680 But is that a profession speed reading? 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:32.920 She's a speed reader like for life. No, but she's 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:34.679 like part of clubs like speed reading clubs. 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.159 Yeah, a lot of weird friends. 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:39.720 Well I'm available, it's true. 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:41.720 But like you also, I was just going to get 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.960 to you later, but like, you know, fucking everyone. And 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:46.719 that's one of my favorite things about you is that 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:49.880 everybody who I drop your name to, they're like, oh yeah, Sam, 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:52.119 he's the best. Like there's no everybody speaks not only 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:54.480 speaks very highly of you, but everybody knows who you are. 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:56.200 Well, such a quest love Casino showed it. 0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:58.919 Well, Ques, but he also doesn't know who you are, 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:00.359 and you've worked with him, but he probably I wouldn't 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:00.679 remember that. 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:05.040 But that's and I'll hold it against them. I like people, man, 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.840 I like people. I also I like people. I'm probably 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:12.760 a pretty lonely guy, so I like being around people. 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:17.600 And I like to learn from people, and i'm I 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:21.560 like characters. I'm really into characters, and it doesn't matter 0:24:21.560 --> 0:24:23.879 who that you know. There's no hierarchy in my brain. 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:28.080 I just sort of like people, and I'm I don't know. 0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:31.719 I'm much happier person when I'm out socializing than when 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:34.359 i'm by myself. By myself, I'm kind of dark. And 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.520 when I'm alone around like big groups of stuff, I 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:40.960 like holding court because I just love watching all the 0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:44.320 interaction between people, and I like connecting people. Something I 0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:49.439 learned from Jonathan Daniel again from Crush and who early 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:51.960 on was the first people who explained to me the 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:54.480 notion of being a connector in life, where you really 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:58.200 connect people and don't ask for anything, want anything, or 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.520 assume anything. Just connect people who I think might like 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:05.680 each other because it puts like a really good energy 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:08.960 out there and it will manifest in different ways and 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:09.800 always has. 0:25:10.000 --> 0:25:11.760 This is also something I'm very good at, which I 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:13.000 think is why we're friends one. 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:15.520 By the way, look we have very similar wiring. We're 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:19.200 both very very attractive people in podcasts, so. 0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:21.440 All the cameras are working very well good at this. 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:23.920 Moment, my light incredible right now, it's that shirt. 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:26.080 I can't that that shirt and the shirt the whole 0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:27.880 color scheme is like so. 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:29.960 Well, while I'm doing it, this is a floral Paul 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:30.800 Smith number. 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:32.679 Why you gotta drop brand games now? 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:36.360 Underneath would be the homage Doc Ellis t shirt when 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:38.280 he did the LSD, when he did throw a no 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:42.600 hitter on LSD. Okay, it went with the matching nikes. 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:45.840 And there is a blue sock thing happening that was 0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:46.840 not intention. 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:48.359 And you always wear a hat as if we're you 0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:49.600 are a. 0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:52.560 Stunted man child. Here's the thing. You know, I wear 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:55.840 lids and hoodies everywhere, which makes me very recognizable, and 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:58.520 there's five people who care. But the reason I do 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:01.800 is I don't really the shape of my head. And 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:04.960 also I've been doing it since I was a little boy. 0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:07.480 It's funny. I related to Adam Sandler in so many ways. 0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:13.000 Obviously very attractive Jewish men but with very Doe features. 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:16.119 But what I would say about Sandler is I still 0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:18.880 I never grew up, and I you know, I look 0:26:18.880 --> 0:26:20.520 at pictures of me in high school and I got 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:22.480 my dad's and there was there was, there was the 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:25.000 baseball half phase, and then there was like the I 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:27.240 went full ducky, yep, pretty and pink, so I was 0:26:27.280 --> 0:26:30.560 like doing the pork pie. And then I went to 0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:32.120 a fedora for a while. 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.160 There's a snow hat like there. 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:36.560 Was always like the snow hats. I always like the 0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:39.919 snow hats. And what I realized is, I don't know. 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:44.119 I just I feel like I never want to lose 0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:47.960 the youthful spirit. It's in my writing and it's how 0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:50.119 I wake up every day. I still feel like a 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:54.199 little kid anything that is a constant reminder. When I 0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:56.360 look in the mirror and I still feel like I'm sixteen, 0:26:56.440 --> 0:27:01.000 I feel very free, and that's sort of who I am. 0:27:01.000 --> 0:27:02.240 That's sort of the composite of my thing. 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:04.560 Here's a sidebar. How does that affect you as a parent? 0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:07.359 Well, I mean I wouldn't want to be my kid. 0:27:09.880 --> 0:27:11.040 I mean what does that mean? 0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:12.760 Well, I mean when you go to parent teacher night 0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:16.760 and you know, there's there's seventeen, you know, hedge fun 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:19.720 bro guys and suits in the back of the room, 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:25.480 and there's one very florally draped, sloppy guy with ill 0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:26.440 fitting clothing. 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:29.639 Bank account reads tis motherfucker. 0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:32.240 It's just it's just it's for a child. It's it's 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:35.040 probably a lot toun back. I have a feeling now 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:37.840 I'm hoping. I kind of feel like I'm nearing that 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:41.440 age where my kid is like, oh wait, he's not 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:44.960 that mortifying. But you know, for many years it wasn't easy. 0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:47.080 In La was simple though. In La I was just 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:50.280 part of that thing then, But in Westchester it's a 0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:50.760 little different. 0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:52.320 There's a great there's a great line in your book 0:27:52.359 --> 0:27:56.679 because it ranked he to me about you took the 0:27:56.720 --> 0:28:00.280 Descendants gig. What does it total? We're skipping head made years, 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:02.480 but whatever, you took the Descendence gig, so you kid 0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:04.120 would think you were cool. And I have to tell 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:08.840 you that all I do now shout out to Jake Cousin, Jake, 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:10.560 our producer who's about to have a kid. I was 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:12.480 explaining to him that his life is about to be 0:28:12.520 --> 0:28:15.760 over because anything that he ever did for himself doesn't 0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:17.639 matter anymore. All you're about to do is think to 0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:20.000 your kids. So all I try to do and fuck 0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:22.120 you for this, is to get a goddamn descendance gig. 0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:24.400 Because all I listened to in the car is Camp 0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:27.480 Rock Descendants High School musical the musical, the musical, the 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:28.640 musical and all. 0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:31.000 And I had that moment, right did I did? So? 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:35.880 I had that moment. I remember I did this record 0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:38.800 called Shake It with Metro Station. It was a really 0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:42.520 really big song. And when that blew up, I was 0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:46.680 connected with Steve Vincent at Disney and lovely guy. He's 0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:50.200 been there forever, he's been, you know. He shepherds the 0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:53.600 music on every property they have, starting with high school 0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:56.520 musical on and he's a lovely guy. And I remember 0:28:56.600 --> 0:28:58.760 sitting with him and I was basically begging to work 0:28:58.800 --> 0:29:01.720 on camp Rock, you know, And I just watched it 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:03.880 last week and I don't know if you I don't 0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:05.520 think he really got it. I couldn't. I don't know 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:07.640 if he understood where I was coming from. And I 0:29:07.680 --> 0:29:09.920 was like, man, I just it would be a big 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:13.680 flex for my kid, she's three, I need something. And 0:29:13.840 --> 0:29:15.960 what happened was through the years, I would take a 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:18.840 lot of these Disney gigs and it was awesome because 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:22.280 you're working with very sweet people. And the flip side was, 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:24.680 you know, it was so cool when like the Descendants 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:27.800 blew up and my kid and her friends are, you know, 0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:30.920 watching these songs. You know, maybe they're reacting to that 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:32.960 in ways that they didn't react to boys like girls 0:29:33.080 --> 0:29:34.600 or gym class heros or one of these other thinks 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.760 it was super cool. But obviously I'm pretty needy. 0:29:39.200 --> 0:29:43.760 That isn't lost on either of us today and every 0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:47.959 day Jesus all right back in time, so pot we're 0:29:48.000 --> 0:29:49.880 post NYU. And the reason I want to get into 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:53.240 this is because you after your NYU career, you started 0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:55.520 to be your performer. Yet that didn't work well, I know, 0:29:55.640 --> 0:30:00.160 but I find that. But you look the part of 0:30:00.240 --> 0:30:04.800 the comparisons and the contrast between like you write music, 0:30:04.840 --> 0:30:08.400 people assume that you perform it versus you don't and 0:30:08.440 --> 0:30:10.520 you just write it. And I feel like you dabbled 0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:13.040 in all of it. And this was that early time, 0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:14.800 right post your fake college career. 0:30:15.000 --> 0:30:18.200 Yeah, I want to look. I wanted once again, there's 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:21.480 no manual. There's no manual, you know, and I'm in 0:30:22.200 --> 0:30:26.480 and I'm in the city and hip hop is is exploding, 0:30:26.520 --> 0:30:28.600 and I fall in love with all this Native Tongue 0:30:28.880 --> 0:30:31.880 era stuff, right and it was it was Daylon tribe 0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:33.959 really and the Jungle Brothers like those three were sort 0:30:34.000 --> 0:30:35.600 of the pillars of what I got into off the 0:30:35.640 --> 0:30:38.560 bat and then there's obviously all the black sheets and 0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:40.640 roots and everything else that came along with it, you know, 0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:44.840 but the early native tongue era that eighty nine ninety. 0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:50.840 I became obsessed, and I knew that I wasn't verbally 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:56.000 dexterous in the same way you know. 0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:59.640 It's texious word it is, sure it is, now, let's 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:01.880 go with it. Isn't dexterosa drug. 0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:07.400 Whatever, dexidrin, dex dexadrine, dexterius. 0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:11.160 Is that dexterius. No dexterous. You're the lyricist and be dexterous, 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:12.600 so it'd be dexterous, okay. 0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:15.720 But I you know, I knew my way around words 0:31:15.720 --> 0:31:19.560 and word play. I just didn't really it wasn't uh 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:22.200 innately and I'm seeing any way, shape or form. But 0:31:22.240 --> 0:31:25.560 I thought it'd be kind of rad to take my jukebox, 0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:29.560 which was full of, you know, some pretty out records. 0:31:29.600 --> 0:31:31.440 And I was a you know, I was a record collector, man. 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:33.080 I was a flea market guy, just like all these 0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:36.840 kids were. And I thought I had some pretty cool samples. 0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:38.840 I tried to get people to wrap over. I couldn't 0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:40.840 get anybody alive to work on my tracks. I start 0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:43.719 making beats, you know, and so I decided to just 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:46.440 wrap over my own stuff, which basically met me screaming 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:48.560 over them because I didn't really know what I was doing. 0:31:48.560 --> 0:31:51.080 So I sounded like this weird amalgamation of Doctor Dre 0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:56.160 and Hell. But I uh I. The craziest shit happened 0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.480 is I got a record deal. We had a group 0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:02.760 Perfect and my friends Don and Jason Don Jason Lynn 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:04.440 two of my best friends, and we had this weird 0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:06.720 little group and we got signed. We got signed on 0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:10.040 the day we are big showcase for Select Records, and 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:14.040 Select was bad ass because Select had Chub Rock Utfo 0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:17.960 the real Rock Sana I believe you know. It was 0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:21.120 a very cool seminal hip hop label of that time. 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:24.120 And then they signed us, and that's what that ended 0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:26.120 the label obviously. But what was funny about is the 0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:29.000 day we auditioned for the label. As we're about to 0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:31.720 audition and there's a TV at the lobby of Smash Studios, 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:34.120 which is the rehearsal place where we we auditioned for 0:32:34.160 --> 0:32:37.360 the label, and they announced in real time that Magic 0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:42.880 has HIV. And you know, I'm rethinking every single bad 0:32:42.920 --> 0:32:45.640 decision of my life questionable move up to that point 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:48.240 and yeah, as we all are, and then we have 0:32:48.280 --> 0:32:50.840 to get on a stage and perform and basically like 0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:54.240 the Beastie Boys on Meth you know, perfect time. Somehow 0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:56.280 we got a record deal. So we we got we 0:32:56.320 --> 0:32:58.160 got a record deal. And it was the first of 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:02.280 many many mistakes in my career. Their track masters before 0:33:02.320 --> 0:33:04.960 they blew up doing all the stuff for Bad Boy, 0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:08.440 et cetera. They were red Het Lover Tone was signed 0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:12.800 to Select as well, and those guys were they had 0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:15.920 spoken and Fred wanted them to produce my record, and 0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:19.440 I passed Bob Power, the great Bob Power, who on 0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:20.520 this podcast. 0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:22.320 He was perhaps our I think he was the first 0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:23.520 or second person that win. 0:33:23.560 --> 0:33:27.320 Okay, so Bob Power right after this is when he 0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:30.000 had already done that. The second day he did Daylea 0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:31.600 Soul is Dead, and this is right around the time 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:33.840 he was doing Low End Theory. He produced one of 0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:36.200 the songs, and my dumb they got me a record deal, sure, 0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:38.520 and then I didn't use them. And then I didn't 0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:40.400 use them because I had to make my own record 0:33:40.400 --> 0:33:44.040 because I was that guy. I'm awful, and so I 0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:46.400 decided I'm going to produce my own record. And what's amazing. 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:48.920 It was great because you know, I you know, I 0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:51.920 had my first real check and I had the ability 0:33:52.000 --> 0:33:54.880 to do this, and I felt like a really you know, 0:33:54.960 --> 0:33:59.000 a twenty one year old adult. And what of course, 0:33:59.040 --> 0:34:02.640 I make the worst album ever recorded, and I commit 0:34:02.720 --> 0:34:05.280 more musical crimes. And God bless my two bandmates because 0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:07.160 they're sitting in me watching me just crash this car 0:34:07.200 --> 0:34:09.600 in real time, and they went along with it, and 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:13.480 they were so kind that they didn't, you know, restrain 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:15.759 me at any point and say, wow, this is mortifying. 0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:19.520 But I made a record, you know, I had a video, 0:34:19.760 --> 0:34:21.799 It came out. I was dropped by the time I 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:24.800 was twenty two. I will tell you a true story 0:34:24.920 --> 0:34:27.279 that this a little adendum to my best selling book, 0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:32.000 Twenty Minute Wonder. Oh title this book books Ben Bella Books. 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:36.120 But book. Yeah, it was a true story. I h 0:34:36.280 --> 0:34:40.400 it's all true. Before a reefer was legal. 0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:43.120 Okay, I work ages. 0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:46.480 I was a puffer. Yeah, And I was at my 0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:50.480 brother's apartment. He lived on twentieth and eighth, and he 0:34:50.560 --> 0:34:52.080 let me. He used to let me just sit there 0:34:52.080 --> 0:34:54.840 with my journals and write, you know, my poetry or 0:34:54.880 --> 0:34:56.480 my rap or my songs, whatever I was writing. He 0:34:56.480 --> 0:34:58.680 would let me sit out there. He would spin records. 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:01.680 He DJ's so he'd spin record and then I would 0:35:01.680 --> 0:35:04.400 just sit stoned on his porch, staring at you know, 0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:06.360 if Avenue. And it was it was really, it was 0:35:06.400 --> 0:35:08.759 actually a wonderful time in my life. But on one 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:10.839 given day, I thought, well, you know what, I'm gonna 0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:13.000 go buy some vinyl myself. I made that that that 0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:17.360 pilgrimage from my brother's apartment across all the way uh 0:35:17.560 --> 0:35:21.920 down down Grange av Over to sixth Down, through McDougal, 0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:24.840 through Washington Square Park to Tower Records. Okay, it's important, 0:35:25.520 --> 0:35:27.759 it's important for me, the ADHD. But I'm landing it. 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:28.839 You stick with me. 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:32.560 I know the exact record you're talking about. Okay, scored 0:35:32.600 --> 0:35:33.160 the documentary. 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:34.879 Okay, that's that's look at you. 0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:36.640 Yeah, just a little flex there. And by the way, 0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:38.719 that fund yourself. I love that documentary, thank you. It 0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:40.600 was one of the I. 0:35:40.560 --> 0:35:42.120 Look at you like a little differently right, thank you. 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:49.080 All right. So I make it to Washington Square Park 0:35:49.400 --> 0:35:52.520 and I see like this weird sea of purple in 0:35:52.560 --> 0:35:57.440 front of me, and nah, it was like ten thousand princess. 0:35:57.480 --> 0:36:00.320 It was the n y U graduating class would have 0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:03.880 been my graduating class if I hadn't dropped out of college, 0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:05.960 And I can't believe i'd input it in. But you know, 0:36:06.719 --> 0:36:08.520 I know Matt Holt wants to do the sequel with me. 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:12.280 We've already been obviously talking about it, but no true story. 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:15.359 So I actually waltzed by High out of my mind, 0:36:15.400 --> 0:36:18.040 waltz by my college graduation of a school I dropped 0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:18.239 out of. 0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:21.600 And what would my class as. 0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:25.479 If anyone knew me? And I didn't really register their bill. 0:36:26.920 --> 0:36:29.080 But I have no idea where that came from. But 0:36:29.400 --> 0:36:30.839 you know, I will tell you one thing about that 0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:34.120 Tower Records though pivotal for me in so many ways, 0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:36.640 because you know, right up the block was the Whiz. 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:39.080 Two blocks up was the Whiz on Broadway right there, 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:42.600 and on Friday nights, i'side the Whiz, all the jeeps 0:36:42.760 --> 0:36:46.320 would roll up and whatever the biggest hip hop and 0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:50.040 specifically house tracks of eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety. They 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:53.600 would just sit outside and blare them. And sometimes everyone's 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:57.320 radio was on hot you know, on BLS or kiss 0:36:57.400 --> 0:37:00.840 or whatever. And I'll never forget. That's where I first 0:37:00.840 --> 0:37:05.120 heard Gypsy Woman by Crystal Waters, and I can still 0:37:05.160 --> 0:37:08.680 see the entire two hundred kids in the streets singing 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:12.520 La da Dad, you know. And those are those moments 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:14.960 that were embedded in me where I realized music as 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:17.640 a culture was just some other shit and I, you know, 0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:19.560 you don't get that in the suburbs at the same extent. 0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:21.160 So that's when I fell in love with the city 0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:23.520 and I just wanted to be around it. And that's 0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:25.680 when I was going out every night of the week, 0:37:25.960 --> 0:37:30.040 any showcase, anything I could get into, any if I 0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:37.239 even in our unsuccessful hip hop amalgamation, when we would 0:37:37.239 --> 0:37:40.719 do shows at a lot of these venues AKA and 0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:45.680 underact me places like that, whenever we do a show, 0:37:45.880 --> 0:37:47.840 if we ever met a junior A in our person 0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:50.160 I was really big with like very junior A and 0:37:50.200 --> 0:37:54.640 our people, you know, and interns. But you know what, 0:37:54.760 --> 0:37:56.960 I was smart enough to realize that these people someday 0:37:57.000 --> 0:38:01.000 would actually be running this thing, so I would I'd 0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:04.160 befriend people who were my age and my level who 0:38:04.200 --> 0:38:06.080 were just starting out as well, and a lot of 0:38:06.120 --> 0:38:08.759 those people run things. Now. My first gig ever was 0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:11.640 boxing Records at Big Beat Records was just this little 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:14.880 independent label and there are about seven or eight employees, 0:38:15.239 --> 0:38:19.279 and there were two interns. It was me and Adrian Bartos, 0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:22.440 who is Stretch Armstrong, but we were the two interns 0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:24.480 in the back. And they are about seven or eight 0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:26.600 of us. And it was run by Craig Callman, who 0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:28.680 is the chairman of Atlantic. Now you know at that 0:38:28.719 --> 0:38:30.680 point he was twenty three and I was probably nineteen. 0:38:31.320 --> 0:38:37.080 So it's a good story. 0:38:37.200 --> 0:38:38.960 You told a story. I'm gonna tell a story. Last night, 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:40.560 I went to see Stereophonic, which is. 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:42.120 The very tying to see it. 0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:45.400 You have to see it. If you worked in music, 0:38:45.480 --> 0:38:46.800 or you live in music, or you have anything to 0:38:46.840 --> 0:38:48.120 do with music, you have to go see the show. 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:50.560 It could also be called like Fleetwood Mac making of 0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:53.200 the rumors out, That's what I've fod, that's what I've heard. 0:38:53.400 --> 0:38:55.480 It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. It's like it's like 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:59.120 really involved, the music is amazing, blah blah blah. But 0:38:59.200 --> 0:39:01.840 the take home is, in my opinion as a music person, 0:39:01.960 --> 0:39:05.640 is this is it should be called why we need 0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:09.279 producers because it's essentially like a bunch of people who 0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:13.400 are like on many substances and have many relationships and 0:39:13.440 --> 0:39:15.560 there's tons of dynamics, but no one can make a 0:39:15.560 --> 0:39:17.759 decision and there's nobody overseeing it. And then the guy 0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:20.279 who's the lead guitarist decides that he's the producer, and 0:39:20.320 --> 0:39:22.160 we all know how well that goes. So my question 0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:23.640 to you is, as I was watching this, I was 0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:25.880 thinking about, God, I'm gonna ask fucking Sammis, is like, 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:29.279 talk to me about being a producer versus being a 0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:32.320 songwriter and why you think being a because I feel 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:36.000 like in my life I've graduated from like a ranger 0:39:36.080 --> 0:39:39.480 orchestrator whatever the nebulous title that is, to guy who 0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:41.360 writes things from time to time. But then, like what 0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:43.160 people know me as in the last few bits has 0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:46.280 been like overseer of things, connector of things, which sounds 0:39:46.480 --> 0:39:48.160 which I try to explain to my parents and they're like, 0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:49.440 we don't know what the fuck that means, and I 0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:51.200 was like, don't worry about but like I feel like, 0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:53.680 talk to me about why producers are important and why 0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:55.200 we need them and why you're one. 0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:59.080 I just like that you used overseer Like that that's good. 0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:02.000 You can use You can put that in your next 0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:04.719 book entitled twenty two hit Wonders. 0:40:04.960 --> 0:40:07.520 We're way beyond that. We're at least twenty two point five. 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:09.720 We can have half hits. 0:40:09.880 --> 0:40:12.319 Yeah, yeah, look here here's the thing. 0:40:12.920 --> 0:40:16.480 I'm a pretty terrible producer overall. Wow, I can I 0:40:16.480 --> 0:40:21.000 can answer that. You know, it's funny. My breakthrough cut 0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:23.399 was a song with Jim class hero Is called cup 0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:26.680 Its choke Hold. I produced it, okay, and when I 0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:30.920 produced it, it opened up a tidal wave of opportunities. 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:33.799 So it was a number one hit. And then I 0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:36.279 did I Pretty Shake It, I prettyce check Estuliet for 0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:39.200 Wee the Kings. And these were like big, big songs, 0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:42.239 and so I was the me and Dave Kats, who 0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:44.080 I made them with, very important. I did the Wee 0:40:44.080 --> 0:40:48.400 the Kings and the Metro Station with Dave Kats, and 0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:50.399 when we did it, we were hot Rolling Stones Hot 0:40:50.400 --> 0:40:52.160 List Producers of the Year two thousand and eight. I 0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:53.919 say that flex right now. 0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:55.000 That was like a pretty gentleman. 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:58.960 You understand where there's is eating It's great is We 0:40:59.000 --> 0:41:00.960 would start to work with artists who'd come in the 0:41:01.040 --> 0:41:04.759 room to work with Rolling Stones Hotless producers and see 0:41:04.800 --> 0:41:08.360 this guy and then they realized we had no idea 0:41:08.400 --> 0:41:10.799 what we're doing. Now, Dave katzon knew more than I did, 0:41:10.880 --> 0:41:13.440 But you know, we were we were prone to do 0:41:13.480 --> 0:41:18.080 a lot of let's quad that anything. We just kept saying, 0:41:18.120 --> 0:41:21.719 let's quad that, yeah, you know, and for for the uninformed, 0:41:21.719 --> 0:41:24.600 that just sort of makes that's about four, right, four? Yeah, 0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:27.360 just just quadruple that whatever the part was. But we 0:41:27.520 --> 0:41:29.000 liked saying that from the back of the room to 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:32.400 our engineer, Hey, Sean, let's quad that, yep. And you know, 0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:35.759 there are all these sad tropes that we were. 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:37.840 I double everything leads. I don't give a shit, I 0:41:37.880 --> 0:41:38.440 double everything. 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:40.240 I just but you know what, I had no idea 0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:43.640 what I was doing. And the reality was, I'm a 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:46.640 songwriter with a producer mentality, And what that means is, 0:41:47.120 --> 0:41:50.239 I'm truly a writer who kind of understands the way 0:41:50.280 --> 0:41:53.040 the movie should end and hears it sort of in 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:54.960 his head sonically, like this could be this, this could 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:58.120 be this, could be this. But the reality is, when 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:01.319 I go deep on something, if I'm really going deep 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:02.479 on it, it's gonna suck. 0:42:02.920 --> 0:42:04.280 Why cause. 0:42:05.560 --> 0:42:11.920 Remember when Alex Rodriguez started doing steroids, right, you start 0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:14.680 to befuck right, you start to get really big and 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:17.279 you're like, really like your numbers are going through the roof. 0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:21.480 But the problem is you're gonna get busted. I was 0:42:21.520 --> 0:42:24.000 the same guy. I feel like I put everything on 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:28.359 musical steroids, and I would send my tracks to mixers 0:42:28.400 --> 0:42:31.279 like Tom Lord. Algae in Miami was mixing a ton 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:34.040 of my stuff back then, And there was always this, 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:37.080 you know, there were always these moments where I felt 0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:39.000 like I'm about to get totally outed as the worst 0:42:39.000 --> 0:42:40.800 producer in the world, and. 0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:42.279 I feel like this every day. 0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:44.960 Yeah, it's just like, you know, there's imposter syndrome and 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:48.400 there's just being a fucking impostor. And I was truly 0:42:48.440 --> 0:42:51.279 an impostor with production, and I didn't really know what 0:42:51.320 --> 0:42:53.279 I was doing. I do, you know, I do a 0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:56.640 little programming, but I just felt like, honestly, like, I'm 0:42:56.680 --> 0:43:00.000 a guy who's had a lot of joy playing around 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:02.800 with an SP twelve sampler SP twelve hundred and you know, 0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:04.600 I'm at one point five seconds or whatever, and I 0:43:04.640 --> 0:43:06.400 made like primitive beats and that's how I kind of 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:09.719 got started in this and that's probably the peak of 0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:13.120 my creativity as a producer. Everything else, I can get 0:43:13.120 --> 0:43:15.400 it done, and sometimes I can really hit something out 0:43:15.400 --> 0:43:16.960 of the park and I think, wow, I'm really not 0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:19.200 that bad. But I am wise enough not to believe 0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:21.520 my own hype because there are eighteen year old kids 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:25.240 who are infinitely more sonically inclined. We're just more creative. 0:43:25.320 --> 0:43:27.319 And when I'm in a room with somebody who I 0:43:27.360 --> 0:43:31.280 deem a real producer, it's mortifying because they just they're 0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:35.280 just so beyond me. And I've learned there's no ego 0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:39.120 with this. As a writer, I'm pretty good. I stand 0:43:39.160 --> 0:43:40.520 by my work and I think I'm unique. 0:43:40.560 --> 0:43:45.560 But as a producer, best selling novels, best selling novelist, 0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:50.200 it's number on Amazon. Okay, do they still have Z shops? 0:43:50.400 --> 0:43:52.719 Is that I don't know what that is? 0:43:52.960 --> 0:43:56.360 That's like the cutout bend for always looks at Amazon? 0:43:56.480 --> 0:43:57.840 Or is it like at the strand, like it's in 0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:00.080 the pile of like five dollars a nunder. 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:03.560 All my records started out still there. I'm very used 0:44:03.600 --> 0:44:05.680 to having an idiot set record, so. 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:09.080 I want to talk about breaks. So we've never talked 0:44:09.080 --> 0:44:11.239 about this because I didn't know until I read your book. 0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:15.080 So when I was in my early twenties. I was 0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:17.600 making musicals and doing whatever I was doing. And a 0:44:17.600 --> 0:44:21.040 friend of mine, Chris Jackson, who later became George Washington 0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:24.080 and Hamilton and all this other shit, he was working with, 0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:28.799 who I didn't know at the time, McMurphy. And so, yeah, 0:44:28.840 --> 0:44:31.960 so I read the book and I couldn't believe this 0:44:32.040 --> 0:44:35.399 because so I'll let you talk about McMurphy, but let me. 0:44:35.320 --> 0:44:36.880 Say what I say, pour some more whiskey to. 0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:42.839 It, hashtag angels and begs. And so Chris, my friend Chris, 0:44:42.880 --> 0:44:44.759 He's like, listen, I've been working on these music with 0:44:44.800 --> 0:44:47.080 these guys, Dad, have you ever heard of the system 0:44:47.120 --> 0:44:49.920 of McMurphy. And Frankly, as a Jewish kid from Long 0:44:49.920 --> 0:44:53.920 Island who liked like Coltrane and Dave Matthews, I did 0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:56.880 not know a lot about the system of McMurphy, full disclosure. 0:44:57.280 --> 0:44:59.680 So I went and I'm sitting there with McMurphy, and 0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:02.040 he he is the nicest guy in the world. 0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:03.080 Sexy fella. 0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:05.000 He is a very sexy fella, like not but like 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:07.120 not a person who's ever been in my life I 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:11.239 like ever not that like his personality and his son 0:45:11.280 --> 0:45:13.160 and we like went to his house and he like 0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:16.279 still worked in Acid remember that program it wasn't you know, 0:45:16.719 --> 0:45:19.200 And like he played the guitar really well and he 0:45:19.280 --> 0:45:21.319 was lefty and I was like, who the He's like 0:45:21.360 --> 0:45:26.920 a cartoon And we collectively produced this guy, Chris Jackson's 0:45:26.960 --> 0:45:30.560 album and at the time I didn't know and so 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:33.359 finally like this is crazy, So I googled him and 0:45:33.400 --> 0:45:35.680 like and then like he would teach me. He would 0:45:35.680 --> 0:45:37.960 just leak all kinds of things to me about how 0:45:38.000 --> 0:45:40.000 to make music and how to write good songs, and 0:45:40.080 --> 0:45:44.040 like he would his his shit was so sophisticated, but 0:45:44.080 --> 0:45:46.120 you would never know. And I loved that about like 0:45:46.200 --> 0:45:48.960 the the harmonic structures were so intense, and like the 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:52.640 way he played the guitar, like Babyface was like so involved, 0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:56.120 but the songs were so simple and elegant, and it 0:45:56.160 --> 0:45:58.680 was really one of the anyway you can speak this, 0:45:58.719 --> 0:46:01.760 but like in your book Mick and his part David, 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:03.719 they gave you one of your early breaks. They give 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:05.520 you a space, right, they believed in you, and they 0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:07.520 gave you some shit. I just thought that was that 0:46:08.000 --> 0:46:10.560 was a weird moment for me reading in your book 0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:12.960 that we both had that it's those guys. 0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:18.200 So you know, I'm old as fuck. So you know, 0:46:18.520 --> 0:46:22.319 if you wanted any opportunity in this business, you would 0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:24.320 look at the back. You'd look at the back of records. 0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:27.399 You'd see labels, producers, whoever. And then you'd go to 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:30.040 the phone book and you would try to find phone 0:46:30.080 --> 0:46:34.080 numbers and you would cold call. And that's what I did, 0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:38.040 and I cold called the Science Lab which was their 0:46:38.080 --> 0:46:40.520 production company, and those guys were coming off don't disturb 0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:42.399 this group which I danced to at my prom which 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:44.839 was kind of rad. I mean, and it's a year 0:46:44.920 --> 0:46:47.520 later and I cold call and I just say, look, 0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:49.680 I'm an artist, and you know I'd love to send 0:46:49.680 --> 0:46:53.120 you a demo tape blah blah blah. And this lovely fellow, 0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:55.480 Todd Allen working for them, and he answered the phone 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:59.279 and he invited me in, and you know, I think 0:46:59.320 --> 0:47:01.200 they dug me and I sign me to a production deal. 0:47:01.520 --> 0:47:05.120 And I was eighteen, and I mean, those guys were 0:47:05.239 --> 0:47:07.760 so bad ass. I mean, you know, David was playing 0:47:07.800 --> 0:47:09.719 on Shaka con records. They were I think they were 0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:14.520 writing for Shaka. They did this record Attitude, a song 0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:16.960 I think was called We Got the Juice, which was incredible. 0:47:17.360 --> 0:47:19.880 They had really some crazy They had this incredible setup. 0:47:19.880 --> 0:47:23.440 They were in the sixteen fifty Broadway and a floor 0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:27.560 below was next Plateau Wrecks, next Plateau Records, which had 0:47:27.719 --> 0:47:29.800 the beginning of Salt and Pepper, you know, and stuff 0:47:29.840 --> 0:47:34.120 like that, and then the science lab in their room. 0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:37.680 Little Louisvega was using their room, so all that early 0:47:37.760 --> 0:47:40.680 house stuff was getting made at the end of the 0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:43.640 hall as well. So I was able to absorb so 0:47:43.760 --> 0:47:47.600 much badass shit. And I was eighteen, and they were 0:47:47.680 --> 0:47:50.200 lovely guys. I ran into david a hotel in la 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:53.879 about four months ago, and look, I owe those guys 0:47:53.880 --> 0:47:56.520 immenseally because they were the first people. You know, it's hard, 0:47:56.600 --> 0:47:58.319 especially when you drop out of school and your parents 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:01.560 were like these, you know, massive intellectuals and very academic, 0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:07.160 and you're trying to rationalize this decision. And if somebody 0:48:07.160 --> 0:48:11.160 who actually who's succeeded and is a class act at 0:48:11.160 --> 0:48:13.840 the level of those guys, you know, is able to, 0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:15.839 you know, express interest in you and take you under 0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:18.440 their wing, it buys you a little time with your parents. 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:21.120 And that's what it did. It brought me time, and 0:48:21.200 --> 0:48:24.360 so I owe them momentally because even though once again 0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:27.640 those guys, you know, there was only so much listening 0:48:27.640 --> 0:48:28.719 I was going to do at that age, I was 0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:31.680 still going to do my own thing. They just being 0:48:31.719 --> 0:48:33.960 around and being in their orbit. I was privy to 0:48:34.040 --> 0:48:37.400 some crazy stuff, you know. I remember drey Betts was 0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:40.520 one of the cats in the in their circle, working 0:48:40.520 --> 0:48:42.839 out of the spot, and he was doing that what's 0:48:42.840 --> 0:48:45.200 to justify my love? That's when he did justify my love? 0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:48.239 So I remember hearing that very early. That was pretty cool. 0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:56.239 What was so great about no Internet and no access 0:48:57.160 --> 0:49:00.560 is you kind of stumbled into shit And that was 0:49:00.600 --> 0:49:03.640 the New York that I miss, you know, I miss 0:49:03.719 --> 0:49:07.279 the wide eyed excitement of stumbling and stumbling in the rooms. 0:49:07.320 --> 0:49:09.560 I remember, you know, my friend Jake Miller, who I 0:49:09.640 --> 0:49:12.799 just gos, who passed away a long time ago. Jake 0:49:12.840 --> 0:49:15.120 and his band they're called Zanix twenty five, and they 0:49:15.120 --> 0:49:17.959 were doing sort of like a Progmeday kind of thing, 0:49:18.640 --> 0:49:21.000 and they were living on a loft on Second Avenue, 0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:27.080 and through Steph Skimarta, who is Warren Haynes's wife, who 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:29.439 was doing a and RT Forth and Broadway, they meet 0:49:29.440 --> 0:49:31.520 the Jungle Brothers and next thing. You know, the Jungle 0:49:31.600 --> 0:49:36.400 Brothers are making this progressive, weird psychedelic rock sort of 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:40.440 hip hop record in this loft with these guys, and 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:44.080 you know, I'm the biggest Jungle Brothers fan in the world, man, 0:49:44.120 --> 0:49:46.000 and I'm like allowed to hang out every once in 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:48.399 a while and just watch my friends like throw down 0:49:48.440 --> 0:49:51.759 with these guys making this really cool progressive shit that 0:49:51.840 --> 0:49:55.120 never saw the light of day. It was neat. It 0:49:55.200 --> 0:49:57.239 was just every day was it was just like this 0:49:57.280 --> 0:49:59.640 weird New York was like this one big reveal. Right, 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:02.400 you just like walk through a door and if you 0:50:02.400 --> 0:50:05.040 were socially inclined and you were not, you know, I 0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:07.440 was fearless, man. I walk up to anybody and if 0:50:07.440 --> 0:50:09.799 you still do that, yeah, I mean, well you know 0:50:10.320 --> 0:50:12.000 now they run. 0:50:11.760 --> 0:50:13.239 But then I was. 0:50:13.239 --> 0:50:15.520 Young and it was a little less creepy feeling. 0:50:15.560 --> 0:50:18.200 We interviewed Chris Rock like years ago and he said 0:50:18.200 --> 0:50:19.520 the best thing. He's like, yeah, I know, I'm a 0:50:19.520 --> 0:50:21.239 comic and I do these things. He's like, but you know, 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:24.000 my best quality is and we're like what he said, 0:50:25.200 --> 0:50:28.120 I I show up and I essentially I show up 0:50:28.160 --> 0:50:30.840 and I don't get kicked out. So I'm always there, 0:50:31.040 --> 0:50:33.160 and I feel like a lot of the anecdotes in 0:50:33.200 --> 0:50:35.560 your book are like I was just there. There's like 0:50:35.640 --> 0:50:39.480 some bitch about like Cusack, and like you were part 0:50:39.480 --> 0:50:42.160 of this like weird rat packing New York situation where 0:50:42.200 --> 0:50:44.279 it was like you and him and whoever the fuck 0:50:44.280 --> 0:50:46.520 else was and some screenwriter and you're doing all this stuff, 0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:49.480 and I just feel like you, you're around, You're always, 0:50:49.520 --> 0:50:51.440 and there's some pictures of you in that book where 0:50:51.440 --> 0:50:53.960 you're just like in the background, fucking just sam just there, 0:50:54.160 --> 0:50:56.640 like the songwriting aside, I was just there. 0:50:56.680 --> 0:50:58.279 I was like the ultimate hanger on, you know. 0:50:58.719 --> 0:51:01.080 But that's my thing too, Like seemed to be around, dude. 0:51:01.080 --> 0:51:05.680 I can close my eyes and it's you know, it's Thanksgiving, 0:51:05.760 --> 0:51:11.960 probably ninety three, and John Cusack is doing Thanksgiving with 0:51:12.000 --> 0:51:15.280 me and my grandmother and my mom and dad and 0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:17.920 my brother. I'm his wife on the Upper East Side. 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:20.000 And then John and I go out afterwards and meet 0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:22.200 up with Jeremy Piven and Uma Thurmat. 0:51:22.600 --> 0:51:23.040 Yeah. 0:51:23.080 --> 0:51:26.320 So it's me, John Cusack, Jeremy Piven, and Uma Thurman 0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:31.359 and we're all standing on the stairs of the met 0:51:31.680 --> 0:51:34.680 and it's pouring rain and we're sort of dancing together 0:51:35.440 --> 0:51:39.000 and I'm self aware enough to know one of us 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:44.400 doesn't belong in this, you know, And I just it 0:51:44.520 --> 0:51:47.960 was amazing because it really lit a match in me. 0:51:48.080 --> 0:51:51.640 And that's why I look, I'm forever indebted to those 0:51:51.680 --> 0:51:55.640 guys because they they saw something in me. You know. 0:51:56.160 --> 0:51:58.160 Maybe I didn't ask for anything, which was a nice skill. 0:51:58.640 --> 0:52:01.960 I definitely I wasn't a taker, which is good. But 0:52:02.320 --> 0:52:06.200 they let me hang around and just being sort of 0:52:06.880 --> 0:52:10.879 tangentially involved in all their sort of happenings and after 0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:14.479 hour stuff. What was cool is, man, I just got 0:52:14.480 --> 0:52:22.200 to see how great it is to sort of to 0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:26.560 have access and to achieve whatever pinnacle. Like. They were 0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:28.480 all very successful at that time, and it lit a 0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:31.480 match like, man, if I had a measured level success, 0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:35.040 I won't feel like an outsider in every room. I 0:52:35.040 --> 0:52:38.000 will feel like maybe I belong one step more. I 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:39.760 didn't want to be a plus one my whole life, 0:52:40.239 --> 0:52:42.960 and I think that really fueled, like that sent me 0:52:43.440 --> 0:52:47.839 into orbit creatively because I thought, you know, if I'm 0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:51.000 able to achieve something and it resonates on any creative scale, 0:52:51.760 --> 0:52:53.720 if I'm not a plus one anymore, and I'm actually 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:56.400 part of the group, and I've you know, I've earned 0:52:56.400 --> 0:52:58.359 my way where you think, oh, this guy just isn't 0:52:58.440 --> 0:53:01.120 another one of the hangarounds. Do you know? I told 0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:02.480 Piven not to do entourage? 0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:04.880 Really, but why is that not in the book I did? 0:53:04.920 --> 0:53:07.080 That's a good line. Had that conversation. 0:53:07.560 --> 0:53:09.879 Me and my wife and Jeremy went to uh Fred 0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:12.880 Siegel for dinner with twenty something years ago whatever it is. 0:53:13.200 --> 0:53:15.080 He told us about this thing he'd been offered. I 0:53:15.080 --> 0:53:17.000 was like, I don't know. It sounds kind of whack man. 0:53:17.320 --> 0:53:20.480 I don't know. I'm not an agent, trust me. You 0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:22.160 know you don't want me wrapping you in anything. 0:53:22.480 --> 0:53:26.720 It feels like Lynn invited me to Hamilton off Broadway 0:53:26.840 --> 0:53:29.239 and he goes, what'd you think? I was like, I 0:53:29.280 --> 0:53:31.840 don't know that, like my grandmother from like Long Island 0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:34.120 and just get it awesome and I stuck to that. 0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:34.840 You nailed that. 0:53:34.960 --> 0:53:37.160 Yeah, I really I feel like I'm a really really 0:53:37.160 --> 0:53:40.719 good sets for six Jesus. So I feel like this 0:53:40.760 --> 0:53:44.960 is a good spring where it's like, yes the cusacknith 0:53:45.040 --> 0:53:47.799 that's a word. So we get into two thousand and 0:53:47.840 --> 0:53:51.040 I feel like two thousand until today is like or 0:53:51.080 --> 0:53:54.560 maybe a few years ago is like Sam Holland or Heyday. 0:53:55.040 --> 0:53:56.960 And what I mean by that is like between two 0:53:57.040 --> 0:54:00.080 thousand and twenty twenty. This is the time we're talking 0:54:00.120 --> 0:54:03.200 of you as rock producer of the Year and big 0:54:03.239 --> 0:54:04.920 Dick of the West and all the shit that you 0:54:04.920 --> 0:54:08.160 accomplished in those particular years. But like, what was the 0:54:08.200 --> 0:54:12.640 first song that led off two thousands, that led that 0:54:12.640 --> 0:54:15.040 that opened the door? I know, there's there's a Clive 0:54:15.080 --> 0:54:16.479 Davis kind, there's a skipping stone. 0:54:16.480 --> 0:54:18.080 That's a lot of things. I mean, the one thing 0:54:19.040 --> 0:54:21.120 at the end of the day, there are like three 0:54:21.200 --> 0:54:23.160 or four little ten pole things that happened. But the 0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:27.040 first is Carol King because I connected with Carol King 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:32.800 in two thousand and you know, we begin writing songs together. 0:54:33.440 --> 0:54:35.920 And I'm explain how that happened because it's a really. 0:54:35.800 --> 0:54:37.399 Good story, well you know. 0:54:37.760 --> 0:54:40.799 I and also not one that anyone would ever put 0:54:40.840 --> 0:54:42.160 on you, even in that shirt. 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:47.200 Okay, wow strong. So what what I realized in my 0:54:47.280 --> 0:54:51.520 twenties is there are no doors open for me. I 0:54:51.560 --> 0:54:55.279 failed as an artist, and I started making beats and 0:54:55.320 --> 0:54:58.000 hawking beats around and nothing's working. I meet a guy 0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:00.440 named Joe Ricatelli who was awesome who ended up being 0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:02.799 the president of RCA, but before that he was a 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:06.600 running promotion in Island and I met him through my 0:55:06.600 --> 0:55:11.719 friend Kimberly, and he gets me and my partner at 0:55:11.719 --> 0:55:13.480 the time was a guy named dougdan Angelis. He gets 0:55:13.520 --> 0:55:16.040 his remixes and I start building up remixes, remixes, and 0:55:16.040 --> 0:55:21.920 then it continues solo and with Dave Scholmer and different configurations. 0:55:21.960 --> 0:55:24.319 I'm doing remixes of def jam catalog stuff. He gets 0:55:24.360 --> 0:55:26.240 me in the mix and I'll tell you, these remixes 0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:28.560 are god awful and no one's ever heard them, but 0:55:28.600 --> 0:55:30.880 they were always the b sides to like a club promo, 0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:33.440 So he cared enough about me to always throw my 0:55:33.520 --> 0:55:36.680 things on. So I had a Suddenly my discography, which 0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:41.040 had nothing, had method Man DMX, the Thong Song, like 0:55:41.280 --> 0:55:44.120 all these pivotal records of that time, I had, like 0:55:44.160 --> 0:55:47.600 the techno remix. Now, no one alive was listening for 0:55:47.680 --> 0:55:51.160 the techno remix on these things, but suddenly I had credits, 0:55:51.160 --> 0:55:56.880 which was rad my only access to getting bigger stuff. 0:55:57.520 --> 0:55:59.560 I realized was going to be creating my own groups 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:02.719 because there was no future in techno remixes and for 0:56:02.800 --> 0:56:05.640 me because I'm terrible, but also because there are probably 0:56:05.640 --> 0:56:07.279 people who are amazing at it. I just wasn't one 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:09.200 of them. You know, if your Crystal method, you're like, hey, 0:56:09.280 --> 0:56:12.360 fuck you, Sam Holland. But you know I'm not Crystal Method. 0:56:12.600 --> 0:56:14.960 So I realized I got to put groups together because 0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:17.440 the one thing I realized as a student of the 0:56:17.480 --> 0:56:20.880 game is somewhere between you know, the Malcolm McLaren's and 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:24.720 the stock Apeman Waterman's and a lot of these British cats. 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:28.120 You know, if people aren't going to record your own songs, 0:56:28.560 --> 0:56:30.800 then you better find your own groups to sing them. 0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:33.279 And so I would take out ads in the Village Voice, 0:56:33.280 --> 0:56:36.480 and I started casting for groups to like cut my stuff, 0:56:36.480 --> 0:56:38.080 and I find people, take them off for coffee and 0:56:38.080 --> 0:56:40.840 just say, hey, I'll write. I have a studio. You 0:56:40.880 --> 0:56:43.879 know it's a little dump, but like you know, I'll 0:56:43.880 --> 0:56:46.359 write a song. Whatever we can collaborate and you know, 0:56:46.680 --> 0:56:50.640 I'll figure it out. And what happened was I got 0:56:50.640 --> 0:56:54.320 a bunch of people signed over a very quick amount 0:56:54.320 --> 0:56:57.560 of time. There was a there was a there was 0:56:57.600 --> 0:57:01.279 a a news source for music Hits Daily Double, which 0:57:01.280 --> 0:57:02.960 still exist, but they had something called a rumor mill 0:57:03.560 --> 0:57:06.799 and if you were in that, your phone ring off 0:57:06.840 --> 0:57:10.359 the hook. Somehow a guy named Joe Fleischer got wind 0:57:10.360 --> 0:57:13.319 of my stuff and he started touting me and my 0:57:13.400 --> 0:57:15.960 partner as like the next guys. And it was right 0:57:16.000 --> 0:57:18.480 when he had just blown up the Neptunes too, so 0:57:18.560 --> 0:57:20.680 we're like going to be the next guys, not the Neptunes, 0:57:20.720 --> 0:57:25.840 you know. And we start getting all these calls from labels, 0:57:26.240 --> 0:57:28.240 and I'm developing all these acts at the same time, 0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:30.240 and over like a two year period, I want to say, 0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:32.480 we got five or six act signed a major labels. 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:36.480 The first was a woman named Tarsha Vega, and I 0:57:36.560 --> 0:57:40.400 believe she was an assistant in the CBS television accounting 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:43.960 department or something like that. And she came in and 0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:48.160 she had never rapped and never sung, but perfect yeah, 0:57:48.440 --> 0:57:51.800 but you know, her personality was so great. She was 0:57:51.800 --> 0:57:54.200 super cool looking and she was just a great vibe 0:57:54.520 --> 0:57:56.600 and she was down for me just writing stuff. And 0:57:56.600 --> 0:57:59.920 I started writing these songs with my man, Dave Schomer, 0:58:00.280 --> 0:58:01.840 and we were he was doing the tracks and I 0:58:01.880 --> 0:58:04.800 was writing the lyrics and the melodies. And what happened 0:58:05.000 --> 0:58:08.960 was RCAA Records heard it. They signed her as my 0:58:09.000 --> 0:58:12.000 first act signed to like a major. I'd had a 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:14.120 a singer name Sabrina Sang signed a Tommy Boy that 0:58:14.160 --> 0:58:17.920 didn't happen, so I'm over one. Then RCA signed Star Shavega, 0:58:18.520 --> 0:58:22.960 massive deal, all this press, and I'm once again producing 0:58:22.960 --> 0:58:25.320 a record. I mean no idea what I'm doing. And 0:58:25.400 --> 0:58:29.040 I make another terrible record and that's on me. But 0:58:29.080 --> 0:58:32.280 what's funny about it is it's time for a cameo 0:58:32.320 --> 0:58:34.400 on the record and we're looking for a cool feature. 0:58:35.280 --> 0:58:38.720 And my wife had just seen Blood Brothers on Broadway 0:58:38.800 --> 0:58:41.200 and she said Carol King is amazing and Blood Brothers 0:58:41.680 --> 0:58:43.880 and the label was thinking more along the lines of 0:58:43.880 --> 0:58:46.560 India Ri or something like that, and I was like, 0:58:46.600 --> 0:58:50.520 how about Carol King? And everyone looks at me stoneface. 0:58:50.560 --> 0:58:52.800 But Brian Maloof, who was an R on the project, 0:58:53.120 --> 0:58:56.720 had a relationship with Carol's manager, Lorna, who's very lovely, 0:58:57.000 --> 0:58:59.400 and Carol next to you know, within a week, is 0:58:59.400 --> 0:59:00.880 down at our state do you And she sits down 0:59:00.880 --> 0:59:06.520 across from me and Tarshah the artist, and she's going 0:59:06.520 --> 0:59:08.560 on and on about what's going on lyrically and the stuff, 0:59:08.560 --> 0:59:12.920 and she really digs it and to to shout out Tarsha, 0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:16.200 who is this wonderful person. Tarsia just looks and says, well, 0:59:16.320 --> 0:59:19.200 he writes the lyrics, and that's him, you know he 0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:21.600 I don't write the lyrics. And Carol looks at me 0:59:21.680 --> 0:59:24.560 like very puzzled and don't thinking what's up? This is 0:59:24.560 --> 0:59:27.240 mau kisso New York in the flesh. That's how we 0:59:27.320 --> 0:59:32.560 do represent. So immediately, me, Dave and Carol start writing 0:59:32.560 --> 0:59:34.680 together a lot, and we write a bunch of tunes 0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:37.320 just because she likes her lyrics. Yeah, I think she's 0:59:37.320 --> 0:59:39.240 just like the both of us. But I also think 0:59:39.280 --> 0:59:41.840 she liked the fact that, like you know, it was, 0:59:42.240 --> 0:59:44.920 music was changing and we were pulling lots of influences. 0:59:44.960 --> 0:59:48.800 But also we're super respectful of her catalog. We were knowledgeable. 0:59:48.840 --> 0:59:50.480 We knew like I could talk jazz man with her 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:53.240 and other stuff. And she came in the room with 0:59:53.320 --> 0:59:56.080 us and three or four songs and we wrote Love 0:59:56.080 --> 0:59:57.840 Makes the World and that ended up being the title 0:59:57.880 --> 0:59:59.760 track and the single from the last album She Ever 0:59:59.800 --> 1:00:01.600 May and that was, you know, twenty four years ago. 1:00:02.320 --> 1:00:04.640 And that was a really cool calling card because through 1:00:04.680 --> 1:00:07.120 that she introduced us to Paul Williams. Who really became 1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:10.160 like a big brother figure to me. Throughout my entire career, 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:14.160 I connected with Al Rodgers, you know, and I just 1:00:14.200 --> 1:00:16.640 started I felt personal. I was getting lots of respect 1:00:16.680 --> 1:00:19.240 from the old guard. I just still couldn't permeate anybody 1:00:19.320 --> 1:00:22.760 my own age. And that's when I knew I had 1:00:22.760 --> 1:00:25.920 to go even deeper into developing acts. And that's when 1:00:26.000 --> 1:00:29.680 Jonathan Daniel steps in, because we're watching what Crush Management's 1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:31.960 doing at the time, and they have all these cool 1:00:32.000 --> 1:00:33.840 young bands and they're bringing me in and I'm beginning 1:00:33.840 --> 1:00:39.120 to collaborate with them. And while we created Boys Like 1:00:39.160 --> 1:00:42.959 Girls and we found we the Kings and Metro Station, 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:46.080 these things also created a Cobra Starship with Crush Me 1:00:46.400 --> 1:00:50.760 and Dave katz Day. We created Cobra Starship with those guys. Yeah, 1:00:50.800 --> 1:00:52.280 we did not do that one, but we did do 1:00:52.360 --> 1:00:54.360 Snakes on the Plane, which is the greatest song ever, 1:00:54.360 --> 1:00:58.120 the greatest song ever. But we did that whole first album, 1:00:58.360 --> 1:01:01.240 and you know, we just we had this incredible symbiotic 1:01:01.280 --> 1:01:04.400 relationship all of us. We shared this loft, and you know, 1:01:04.480 --> 1:01:07.880 we would just develop acts, and you know, once an 1:01:07.880 --> 1:01:10.400 act was successful, they would take the next one on 1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:12.080 the road with them as direct support, and we were 1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:16.000 working outside of the industry machine, which was awesome, and 1:01:16.840 --> 1:01:20.200 that's what sort of that was what sort of elevated 1:01:20.240 --> 1:01:23.640 my moment. I just, you know it just at thirty four, 1:01:23.680 --> 1:01:28.080 I'm making beats on kids bop records and think and 1:01:28.160 --> 1:01:31.560 thirty five I have like a number one hit, So anything, 1:01:32.080 --> 1:01:34.360 it all shifted at that age. And that's really why 1:01:34.360 --> 1:01:36.840 I wrote the book bill, to be honest with you, 1:01:37.400 --> 1:01:40.800 because you know, at the end of the day, go 1:01:40.920 --> 1:01:42.720 fuck myself, thank you very much. At the end of 1:01:42.760 --> 1:01:45.520 the day, I think what's interesting about my story is 1:01:45.560 --> 1:01:48.120 the futility in the previous fourteen years was at a 1:01:48.200 --> 1:01:51.479 level that most people will never fathom. And I thought, 1:01:52.280 --> 1:01:54.720 you know, I'm so sick of reading you know, people's 1:01:54.720 --> 1:01:57.440 tomes where they gloss over all this shit where it's 1:01:57.480 --> 1:02:00.000 literally like one hundred pages of the struggle fifty pages 1:02:00.000 --> 1:02:02.240 and then it's like victory lap, victory Lap, victory Lap. 1:02:02.600 --> 1:02:06.000 And what I wanted people to understand is the torture 1:02:06.080 --> 1:02:09.440 never ends, and I've never gotten to a place of comfort. 1:02:09.480 --> 1:02:11.400 It's like, I might be fiscally sound at this point, 1:02:11.400 --> 1:02:13.320 but I'll tell you something. I still get my ass 1:02:13.360 --> 1:02:16.640 kicked every single day creatively where I deliver something and 1:02:16.680 --> 1:02:20.600 it gets shredded or stepped on or tossed. And that's 1:02:20.640 --> 1:02:23.160 what I want people to understand is it is the 1:02:23.160 --> 1:02:25.040 greatest life in the world. I think you and I 1:02:25.080 --> 1:02:27.520 share this affinity for it, like we've been able to 1:02:27.520 --> 1:02:31.240 do things that we knit where we never dreamed were possible. 1:02:31.640 --> 1:02:33.800 And the flip side is we still get spit on 1:02:33.960 --> 1:02:36.880 every day we wake up. I tell my kid as 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:39.400 she has, you know, as she dabbles with her interest 1:02:39.440 --> 1:02:41.560 in this, I said, look, it's a kin to get 1:02:41.560 --> 1:02:44.120 stepping outside on Broadway every morning getting hit by a 1:02:44.160 --> 1:02:48.600 cab and then yeah, and then you know, dusting yourself 1:02:48.600 --> 1:02:50.880 off and going off and writing a song because that's 1:02:50.920 --> 1:02:52.440 what it's like, because that's what my inbox looks like 1:02:52.480 --> 1:02:55.280 in the morning. It's like one like disaster after another. 1:02:55.320 --> 1:02:56.880 And then I just I do it again, and do 1:02:56.920 --> 1:02:59.720 it again, and do it again, and hope that the 1:02:59.760 --> 1:03:00.800 time it works in my favor. 1:03:01.000 --> 1:03:04.720 I was impressed, given I'd also work in this line 1:03:04.720 --> 1:03:07.880 of work that like the so many lows, Sam and 1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:10.160 so many highs, there seems it seems to be like 1:03:10.360 --> 1:03:13.560 you're always searching for some sort of middle, and there's 1:03:13.600 --> 1:03:15.720 and what you just said just says this is there 1:03:15.760 --> 1:03:18.280 is no middle. There's no middle, right, It's either like 1:03:18.560 --> 1:03:22.640 you've reached pieces of shit or you're number one smash 1:03:22.720 --> 1:03:24.960 hit right, And it's always it's always that. 1:03:25.160 --> 1:03:27.640 Well, it's also you know, I'm thankfully them at an age. 1:03:27.680 --> 1:03:30.840 Now I'm twenty eight, and I've. 1:03:30.400 --> 1:03:33.360 Aged like a twenty seven year old, just Benjamin Buden. 1:03:34.480 --> 1:03:37.680 But what's interesting at this age is I have enough 1:03:37.720 --> 1:03:41.600 perspective to look back on it and understand the waves, right, 1:03:41.960 --> 1:03:45.200 And I really, you know, I can sort of almost 1:03:45.280 --> 1:03:47.200 on a pie chart in my head. I sort of 1:03:47.560 --> 1:03:51.600 understand where the highs were, where the dips were. So 1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:54.600 I'm not it's hard to fluster me at this point 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:57.120 because I'm ready. I'm ready for rejection, you know what 1:03:57.120 --> 1:04:00.439 I mean. It's okay, and I understand that I'll still 1:04:00.480 --> 1:04:02.760 have another moment. I'll always have another moment, and I'm 1:04:02.800 --> 1:04:05.320 always going to have another disaster. And as long as 1:04:05.360 --> 1:04:07.840 I can wake up knowing that, then nothing sort of 1:04:07.920 --> 1:04:08.400 irks me. 1:04:13.240 --> 1:04:17.320 You mentioned Paul Williams and the great Paul Williams and 1:04:17.680 --> 1:04:20.120 the greatest, the greatest and there's a section in your 1:04:20.160 --> 1:04:22.080 book which I find very funny, sort of like the 1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:24.320 composers I wish I could have been, or wish I 1:04:24.320 --> 1:04:25.880 could be, or the ones I respect the most, or 1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:28.920 whatever you want to call it. And there's who's he? 1:04:29.000 --> 1:04:31.200 What's it from? Abba maybe or whatever? But my favor 1:04:31.280 --> 1:04:34.560 one which we've never discussed, is Joe Riposo and so, 1:04:35.480 --> 1:04:37.680 and I thought long and hard about this as I 1:04:37.720 --> 1:04:40.520 read it, and people ask me about him all the time, 1:04:40.600 --> 1:04:43.360 and what it's like living in that shadow, and it's 1:04:43.760 --> 1:04:46.840 a lot, and I think it's a weird. I think 1:04:46.880 --> 1:04:49.120 when someone's the first to do something and do it 1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:51.880 unbelievably well, and you're someone who like takes over that 1:04:51.960 --> 1:04:54.440 thing or like tries to carry that torch, it's a 1:04:54.440 --> 1:04:57.920 lot of pressure. And in the beginning I thought like this, 1:04:58.080 --> 1:05:00.680 and then I mean, over time, just like I'm just 1:05:00.760 --> 1:05:03.880 trying to do the best job I possibly can and 1:05:03.920 --> 1:05:06.120 I'm here for a reason and blah blah blah. Anyway, 1:05:07.440 --> 1:05:09.760 and the thing you mentioned about how how Sesme Street 1:05:09.800 --> 1:05:12.240 was major in your in like your songwriting and your 1:05:12.280 --> 1:05:13.640 childhood and everything else. 1:05:13.480 --> 1:05:16.760 And simplicity Fender Rhodes, but. 1:05:16.720 --> 1:05:18.880 It was, but it was so complex, And that's my 1:05:18.920 --> 1:05:21.040 favorite thing about Sesme Street is people are like, it's 1:05:21.080 --> 1:05:23.640 songs for children, But if you look at that stuff, 1:05:23.720 --> 1:05:26.960 it is not simple at all, and it's really ridiculous. 1:05:27.000 --> 1:05:30.680 Particularly he was a freak, but I just love the repetition. 1:05:31.160 --> 1:05:34.439 There were just ideas that even as a young sort 1:05:34.520 --> 1:05:40.760 of barely formed musical brain, you know, I did he 1:05:40.800 --> 1:05:42.040 did the three s Company theme. 1:05:42.480 --> 1:05:44.520 You know, there's a lot of like under the hood 1:05:44.520 --> 1:05:45.120 and stuff about it. 1:05:45.120 --> 1:05:48.080 But he was also Sinatra's favorite, right, Sinatra's favorite writer. 1:05:48.480 --> 1:05:55.280 It's like, I've always loved people who who are in 1:05:55.360 --> 1:05:58.040 on the joke. And that's how I look at it, 1:05:58.080 --> 1:06:00.640 Like we're all in on the joke. It's like it's music. 1:06:00.920 --> 1:06:03.520 It's the goal of what we're doing is we're trying 1:06:03.560 --> 1:06:08.240 to sort of make people feel something illicit emotions. And 1:06:09.040 --> 1:06:11.560 when I listen to Reposo stuff, you think, oh, yeah, 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:15.800 it's it's Sesame straight and you know it's it's it's 1:06:16.120 --> 1:06:19.160 it's this these warm, sort of tender little moments. You know. 1:06:19.280 --> 1:06:22.360 Won't to come at him, you know, but at the 1:06:22.400 --> 1:06:25.520 core of it is just the badass like man, what 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:28.720 you know, put on those songs you know, and you 1:06:28.760 --> 1:06:33.080 get chills. It's like they're they're so broad and he 1:06:33.120 --> 1:06:36.320 was able to write really broad stuff for a genre 1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:39.080 that I think previously wasn't at that level of sophistication. 1:06:39.960 --> 1:06:43.440 And to me, he's one of those like he's one 1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:45.760 of those pillars. As a kid when I heard his stuff, 1:06:45.880 --> 1:06:49.720 and it's crazy because you know, in Cape Cod we 1:06:50.040 --> 1:06:52.000 spend a lot of time in Chatham in the summer. 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:56.080 And it's about twenty years come. I am having a 1:06:56.160 --> 1:06:57.960 cup of coffee. I'm sitting on a bench outside the 1:06:58.000 --> 1:07:01.720 library and I turn around and it says this bench 1:07:01.840 --> 1:07:05.240 is dedicated to Joe Roposo who lived his life here. 1:07:05.280 --> 1:07:07.680 Blah blah blah blah blah, you know, and I had 1:07:07.760 --> 1:07:10.400 chills because it was the only bench. You know, I 1:07:10.480 --> 1:07:13.880 just I had coffee. Probably who sits on a bench 1:07:13.920 --> 1:07:17.040 in front a library doing But it's like, you know, 1:07:17.120 --> 1:07:19.520 it's like it's like it was just like this place 1:07:19.520 --> 1:07:21.040 that I used to go and sit, you know, I 1:07:21.120 --> 1:07:24.000 had like a routine, and I never looked at the 1:07:24.000 --> 1:07:26.040 little placard. It's like this small little placard and I 1:07:26.080 --> 1:07:28.160 was so moved by that. I thought, well, this is 1:07:28.480 --> 1:07:31.640 this is divine and you know, he set the bar 1:07:31.800 --> 1:07:34.120 for that genre. But I just love the ones. What 1:07:34.160 --> 1:07:36.360 I love about it. What I mean by the joke is, 1:07:36.400 --> 1:07:38.959 here's this guy. He's doing Sesame Street at the same 1:07:39.040 --> 1:07:42.120 time he's writing Three's Company and he's writing songs for Sinatra. 1:07:42.360 --> 1:07:44.960 He understands that's all music. And this is what I would, 1:07:45.120 --> 1:07:46.760 you know, taking it back to square from one. It's 1:07:46.800 --> 1:07:50.240 all genre lists, right, He's just writing exactly what he felt. 1:07:50.360 --> 1:07:52.240 You know what's weird is sometimes I listen to my voice. 1:07:52.280 --> 1:07:55.080 I sound like Joe Biden. It's a really right feeling. 1:07:55.120 --> 1:07:56.080 It's like a weird drink. 1:07:56.160 --> 1:07:59.920 It's a weird feeling. We're just like, fuck, man, I'm 1:08:00.000 --> 1:08:02.840 a little monotone today. What is going on? I'm sorry? 1:08:03.880 --> 1:08:04.240 All right. 1:08:04.280 --> 1:08:07.520 So we're Carol King's post two thousand. Right in the 1:08:07.560 --> 1:08:09.880 early two thousands, we get the Carol King. Carol King 1:08:09.920 --> 1:08:11.200 becomes the calling card of the thing. 1:08:11.640 --> 1:08:14.320 What happens next, well, you know, I start doing these 1:08:14.360 --> 1:08:17.840 fun little bands, and a lot of hits happen. And 1:08:17.880 --> 1:08:20.920 what happens is once again, because I knew that all 1:08:21.000 --> 1:08:25.519 scenes eventually die or more for something as these uh 1:08:26.080 --> 1:08:29.519 as we're making these pop punk or emo records and 1:08:29.560 --> 1:08:33.439 they're becoming big pop hits. I begin to realize there's 1:08:33.479 --> 1:08:36.920 a shelf life because we're we're repeating ourselves a lot, 1:08:37.040 --> 1:08:39.559 like a lot. I'm writing a lot of songs lyrically 1:08:39.600 --> 1:08:42.519 with escapism themes and us against the world, you know, 1:08:42.760 --> 1:08:45.439 like this is like I to we yes, Yeah, yeah, 1:08:45.439 --> 1:08:46.920 there's a lot of a lot of a lot of 1:08:46.920 --> 1:08:49.280 Paul Williams tricks, et cetera. Then I'm just applying to 1:08:49.320 --> 1:08:52.760 this and I realized that I'm beginning to phone songs in. 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:54.760 And I got to this point where I was like, 1:08:54.840 --> 1:08:57.160 you know, I can phone in a B plus a 1:08:57.320 --> 1:08:59.920 minus every time out. I know what that is. I 1:09:00.120 --> 1:09:02.880 know how to get it there. And songs were going 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:06.320 from first singles like getting first single on everything to 1:09:06.400 --> 1:09:08.960 getting like the third single on things, you know, and 1:09:09.080 --> 1:09:12.040 songs weren't working the same way, and the talent level 1:09:12.080 --> 1:09:14.920 started to shift a little bit where starting to work 1:09:14.920 --> 1:09:17.920 with some kids who interested me less. You know, that 1:09:18.000 --> 1:09:20.240 first wave of these scene kids that we worked with, 1:09:21.040 --> 1:09:23.200 you know, the kids and you know and boys like 1:09:23.240 --> 1:09:28.320 Girls and Wee the Kings, Jim Classros, Trivy McCoy. You know, 1:09:28.600 --> 1:09:31.000 these kids were awesome. They were like little stars, you know, 1:09:31.800 --> 1:09:34.400 and I started to see kids feel less like stars 1:09:34.400 --> 1:09:36.720 to me. There's still some ones that popped, but there 1:09:36.720 --> 1:09:39.160 were kids that just felt like they were at the end, 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:43.720 dying end of a scene. And that's when I immediately 1:09:43.760 --> 1:09:48.040 made the conscious decision to jump into what they call 1:09:48.200 --> 1:09:50.519 hot ac or whatever, but like just sort of like, 1:09:51.400 --> 1:09:54.519 you know, the equivalent of soft rock. But what happened 1:09:54.680 --> 1:09:56.519 was I would stay at La Park. Suits in La 1:09:56.560 --> 1:09:58.599 always stay at the same hotel. And when I stayed 1:09:58.600 --> 1:10:00.720 at this hotel, they would blast the stuff on the roof. 1:10:00.720 --> 1:10:04.920 It was always Matchbox twenty or Dave Matthews or you know, 1:10:05.200 --> 1:10:08.559 Uncle Cracker, Train, Sugar Ray, all this stuff. 1:10:08.720 --> 1:10:10.760 And what I'll really you then went on to work with, Yeah, 1:10:10.800 --> 1:10:11.559 what was weird. 1:10:11.360 --> 1:10:13.120 About it was? It was funny about it was I'm 1:10:13.120 --> 1:10:14.799 sitting up there and I'm realizing that they're not playing 1:10:14.800 --> 1:10:19.840 my music. My music isn't I think I'm you know, 1:10:19.880 --> 1:10:21.720 in the Zeichist at the second and these are hits, 1:10:21.760 --> 1:10:23.519 but they I don't know if they're going to be recurrent. 1:10:23.520 --> 1:10:24.840 I don't know if these songs are going to live on. 1:10:24.920 --> 1:10:27.519 And I got into music with the notion of sure 1:10:27.560 --> 1:10:29.320 I just want to write one hit, but I wanted 1:10:29.320 --> 1:10:30.400 to write a hit that lived on. 1:10:30.600 --> 1:10:32.760 It's legacy important to you, because it's another question I 1:10:32.760 --> 1:10:35.519 get asked all the time as the Sesame Street guy. 1:10:35.560 --> 1:10:39.679 It's like, like, you do you do you think about 1:10:39.680 --> 1:10:41.559 your legacy? Is that a thing that comes up to you? 1:10:41.560 --> 1:10:44.040 Because it doesn't. It's it's I do not. I'm not. 1:10:44.280 --> 1:10:47.439 Maybe I haven't reached the age or the gravity toss 1:10:47.479 --> 1:10:49.080 of my life. I don't think about that. 1:10:49.200 --> 1:10:50.680 Oh I'm psychotic. I think about every day. 1:10:50.680 --> 1:10:53.040 I know, but you're you fine, but you're not psychotic 1:10:53.080 --> 1:10:55.160 in like a psychonic way. You're a psychonic and I'm 1:10:55.160 --> 1:10:56.680 in my head kind of way, and there's anything wrong 1:10:56.720 --> 1:10:58.439 with that. I'm also ninety five, so there are one 1:10:58.479 --> 1:10:59.160 hundred years old. 1:10:59.160 --> 1:11:02.000 So but you look, it's a lot of people say 1:11:02.000 --> 1:11:04.599 that where you know, Here's what I think about legacy. 1:11:04.760 --> 1:11:07.200 I've been doing it so long and I've put so 1:11:07.200 --> 1:11:10.760 so much work into this, and I like to I 1:11:10.800 --> 1:11:12.680 would love to look back. I love people to look 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:14.720 back and think, Wow, this guy brought some joy. You know, 1:11:15.439 --> 1:11:15.880 that's it. 1:11:15.880 --> 1:11:16.559 That's already happened. 1:11:16.600 --> 1:11:18.200 But that's it. But it's but that's what the legacy 1:11:18.240 --> 1:11:20.400 is like I hope that people someday can connect the 1:11:20.439 --> 1:11:22.960 dots and go and think, wow, the guy wrote some 1:11:22.960 --> 1:11:25.320 really uplifting ship or some stuff that made me feel something, 1:11:25.520 --> 1:11:27.400 and and there was a lot of it. There's a 1:11:27.400 --> 1:11:29.720 body of work, and it's a body of work. I 1:11:29.720 --> 1:11:31.160 know if it's a legacy, but I do take my 1:11:31.280 --> 1:11:35.559 body of work seriously. And you know, I've also committed 1:11:35.600 --> 1:11:39.960 many musical crimes, so you know they're worth mentioning as well. 1:11:40.000 --> 1:11:43.439 I've made some records that you know what you know, 1:11:43.680 --> 1:11:46.000 what's I love? You know, there's things I love about 1:11:46.000 --> 1:11:50.160 Spotify right, but Spotify with their playlist when they're written 1:11:50.160 --> 1:11:52.080 by playlist, like each one of them does one, right, 1:11:52.120 --> 1:11:56.400 Amazon does one, Apple does one and Spotify. What sucks 1:11:56.400 --> 1:12:00.519 about Spotify's is it's just every song you've ever done. 1:12:00.600 --> 1:12:03.519 They don't curate it. So just when they sent it 1:12:03.560 --> 1:12:04.960 to me, I was honored. I'm like, wow, I get 1:12:05.000 --> 1:12:07.280 like a written by page. But it's four hundred. 1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:08.599 Songs and not all of them are great. 1:12:08.760 --> 1:12:10.479 Not all were great. I mean there are some things 1:12:10.479 --> 1:12:13.479 in there there there there is one song written with 1:12:13.560 --> 1:12:16.680 some Canadian kid who were to name nameless, where I 1:12:16.720 --> 1:12:19.040 turned that thing on. I was like, holy fuck, I 1:12:19.080 --> 1:12:21.639 wrote the worst song ever written. Yeah, and I don't 1:12:21.640 --> 1:12:23.280 know what the protocol is. If I can just take like, 1:12:23.560 --> 1:12:26.240 you know, pull it into Alan Smithy, you know, and 1:12:26.320 --> 1:12:28.640 take my name off it it yeah, just you know 1:12:29.240 --> 1:12:31.479 it never has it just a pseudonym very late in. 1:12:31.479 --> 1:12:34.760 Life, but primes committed by all. 1:12:34.720 --> 1:12:36.280 Right, but he was a train train. So then I 1:12:36.280 --> 1:12:38.720 started writing with let's get it, come on, you're you're 1:12:38.840 --> 1:12:40.600 you're you're really taking. 1:12:40.360 --> 1:12:42.280 Us off course I do, but like I find I was, 1:12:42.439 --> 1:12:42.840 I have more. 1:12:43.000 --> 1:12:45.000 Okay, but here's the thing, my train. So I hook 1:12:45.080 --> 1:12:45.320 up a. 1:12:45.240 --> 1:12:46.920 Train and ask about train but find out talk about 1:12:46.920 --> 1:12:48.040 train drops. Jupiter. 1:12:48.160 --> 1:12:50.720 Let's want to I want I didn't write that, But 1:12:51.520 --> 1:12:53.360 what happens is all these bands. 1:12:53.439 --> 1:12:55.320 Let me let's talk about quest leaft. Yeah, let's just 1:12:55.320 --> 1:12:57.720 talk about questions the whole time. He'll be happy. What 1:12:57.760 --> 1:12:59.439 if he just strolled in right now? What a moment 1:12:59.479 --> 1:13:04.960 that Okay, here is this imposter nice shirt? Yes, so 1:13:05.880 --> 1:13:08.479 he will rocks some floral shit. I sat next to 1:13:08.560 --> 1:13:11.679 him at the moth Galla last year. All right, moth Galla, 1:13:11.800 --> 1:13:13.840 did you tell a story? Fuck you? First of all, 1:13:13.880 --> 1:13:16.760 By the way, I did once, Oh my God with 1:13:16.840 --> 1:13:18.840 Jeff Garland. Oh you want to go deep? You want 1:13:18.880 --> 1:13:20.120 to go deep? Go ahead, you got No. 1:13:20.160 --> 1:13:22.240 I'm just saying, like, honestly, if they didn't ask me 1:13:22.280 --> 1:13:24.280 to speak in the moth gallup, they just they just 1:13:24.360 --> 1:13:28.040 let me sit there. But Questlove is a very good 1:13:28.040 --> 1:13:30.360 looking man, and you know he gets a lot of attention. 1:13:30.479 --> 1:13:33.679 He's like a table one guy. Sure, I'm Table nine, but. 1:13:33.600 --> 1:13:35.120 Like, do you always find it funny when you meet 1:13:35.160 --> 1:13:38.040 somebody who you think is a table who should be 1:13:38.040 --> 1:13:41.000 a table one guy, but they're not cool, and you're 1:13:41.040 --> 1:13:42.880 just like, what what happened to you? 1:13:44.000 --> 1:13:45.479 That's the same thing as when you meet me and 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:47.439 they think, no, no, did you end up at Table nine? 1:13:48.160 --> 1:13:50.760 Thinks you're cool, Like there's no expectation with him, there's 1:13:50.760 --> 1:13:52.479 like an expectation that you're going to be cool and 1:13:52.479 --> 1:13:54.600 then you are not him. But with some people and 1:13:54.600 --> 1:13:57.160 you meet and you're just like, oh, that's bummer, that's 1:13:57.200 --> 1:13:57.760 not what I thought. 1:13:58.080 --> 1:13:59.559 I find most people cooler than. 1:13:59.479 --> 1:14:03.400 Me percent but you're pretty cool. Moving on, so we're 1:14:03.479 --> 1:14:06.519 post trained, but before we in the train, I feel 1:14:06.520 --> 1:14:09.000 like there's minutia of songwriting that I want to get 1:14:09.000 --> 1:14:11.000 into I love all your accolades. Read the book. He 1:14:11.000 --> 1:14:13.519 talks about all the accolades you chuck, shut up. We 1:14:13.520 --> 1:14:15.519 talk about songwriting all the time. In fact, we write 1:14:15.520 --> 1:14:17.880 songs together, you and me Sam all the time now. 1:14:18.560 --> 1:14:21.960 So having been in a bunch of like writers composer rooms. Yeah, 1:14:22.240 --> 1:14:24.200 And so there's a section in your book about Max 1:14:24.240 --> 1:14:28.080 Martin and the whole synchronicity of Swedish pop and how 1:14:28.160 --> 1:14:29.960 that shit works. And it's another thing that I have 1:14:30.040 --> 1:14:34.720 a lot of, uh that I do, and and the 1:14:34.720 --> 1:14:37.479 way that they work and how that happens is a thing, right, 1:14:37.760 --> 1:14:40.960 and and so there's a lot there's interesting things in 1:14:41.000 --> 1:14:42.400 your book. And we have talked about this at late 1:14:42.680 --> 1:14:47.519 about like Swedish well that but like songwriters, therapist song like. 1:14:47.720 --> 1:14:50.639 So in my early days when I let's talk about 1:14:50.640 --> 1:14:52.000 me for a second, in my early days, when I 1:14:52.000 --> 1:14:54.120 had a publishing deal, they were like, go to this thing, 1:14:54.360 --> 1:14:56.800 sit in a room with someone you've never listened, you 1:14:56.800 --> 1:14:59.920 don't know anything about, and write a song about car 1:15:00.120 --> 1:15:02.439 washes or whatever the fucking was. And I remember going 1:15:02.479 --> 1:15:04.160 and I was so young and naive, and they had 1:15:04.160 --> 1:15:07.280 paid me five thousand dollars and like taking my whole 1:15:07.320 --> 1:15:09.280 life's earnings, and I was like, cool, I needed I 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:12.000 couldn't pay rent, so great, take that for a year whatever. 1:15:12.640 --> 1:15:15.439 And I remember feeling so uncomfortable and being like this 1:15:15.479 --> 1:15:17.840 is not what I do, This is not I need 1:15:17.880 --> 1:15:20.120 like alone time, and I can't deal with it, and dada, 1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:22.599 so smash cut. Two years later when I stopped doing 1:15:22.640 --> 1:15:24.200 like the writing sessions, and then I was just like 1:15:24.520 --> 1:15:27.799 producing records or making things. And I find this idea 1:15:28.600 --> 1:15:31.479 go back to stereophonic from last night, Like the producer 1:15:31.560 --> 1:15:36.639 as therapist or psychologist is like I feel like eighty 1:15:36.680 --> 1:15:39.400 percent of the gig man like dealing with the crazy 1:15:39.520 --> 1:15:41.880 and then and then also like having the ability to 1:15:41.920 --> 1:15:45.880 tell so and so the lead singer like actually no, 1:15:46.680 --> 1:15:48.800 like it should be this or like whatever. And there's 1:15:48.920 --> 1:15:51.439 also there's a bonus cut in your thing that says, 1:15:51.479 --> 1:15:54.080 like some of the effect of whether you like it 1:15:54.160 --> 1:15:55.639 or not, the lead singer's always the person that makes 1:15:55.640 --> 1:15:57.360 the decision of the bit right whatever your person that 1:15:57.439 --> 1:15:59.599 is right, which is which is one hundred percent correct, 1:16:00.080 --> 1:16:02.120 Like the bass players not saying shit. The bass players 1:16:02.160 --> 1:16:03.920 in the back like thumping out roots and like loving 1:16:03.960 --> 1:16:05.679 his life and like who cares and he gets laid 1:16:05.680 --> 1:16:08.160 the most. Always the bass player, but like the lead 1:16:08.200 --> 1:16:09.960 singer is always the guy that makes whether he knows 1:16:09.960 --> 1:16:11.720 what he's talking about or not, that's the guy, right. 1:16:11.720 --> 1:16:14.080 Well, writers, one thing I'll say, aspiring writers, if you're 1:16:14.120 --> 1:16:18.719 out there, if you're aspiring songwriter, if you are able 1:16:18.760 --> 1:16:21.640 to permeate this beast of an industry and you get 1:16:21.680 --> 1:16:24.720 a publishing deal and they say to you, hey, you 1:16:24.760 --> 1:16:27.640 know what, we have so and so banned and we 1:16:27.720 --> 1:16:30.920 want you to write with the drummer. You don't do it. 1:16:32.160 --> 1:16:35.840 You just just veto it right away that day and 1:16:35.880 --> 1:16:36.760 they're not going to happen. 1:16:36.840 --> 1:16:38.679 And I have friends who still fall for it, which 1:16:38.680 --> 1:16:40.960 is the craziest thing. People my age you still fall 1:16:41.000 --> 1:16:43.360 for are like, oh my god, it's the drummer from 1:16:43.360 --> 1:16:45.120 blah blah blah. You know, I think I can get 1:16:45.120 --> 1:16:46.240 on the record. No, you can't. 1:16:46.680 --> 1:16:48.240 Nor do you want to look at the credits? 1:16:48.800 --> 1:16:51.320 You know, look who you know who has the keys 1:16:51.360 --> 1:16:56.000 to a project? Yes? To answer what you're saying, you know. 1:16:56.120 --> 1:16:57.880 Like, how do you approach those things? What do you 1:16:57.880 --> 1:16:58.559 have a different mind? 1:16:58.600 --> 1:17:00.320 Well, first of all, it's a speed dating. It's a 1:17:00.400 --> 1:17:03.200 date it's a speed dating. I did it for so 1:17:03.240 --> 1:17:06.160 many years, and you know, I do it less now 1:17:06.240 --> 1:17:09.040 just because I'm probably burned out of the process. But 1:17:09.520 --> 1:17:11.360 for many years I would do two hundred speed dates 1:17:11.400 --> 1:17:12.880 a year where I would get in a room with 1:17:13.040 --> 1:17:16.960 some configuration of people and it's thirty five minutes of 1:17:17.000 --> 1:17:19.800 small talking and trying to bond and you know, sort 1:17:19.840 --> 1:17:22.639 of forge your relationship. And then we have to get 1:17:22.680 --> 1:17:25.519 deep and really like expose some nerves and really figure 1:17:25.520 --> 1:17:27.960 out who we are in the room. And it's interesting 1:17:27.960 --> 1:17:29.840 because when you're writing with their artists. Some days you're 1:17:29.840 --> 1:17:33.040 writing with artists who are incredibly lyrical, which sort of 1:17:33.080 --> 1:17:36.080 falls into my domain. So then I have to shape 1:17:36.080 --> 1:17:37.840 shift immediately in the room because I do not want 1:17:37.880 --> 1:17:40.960 to suppress their thing, and I know I'm smart enough 1:17:41.000 --> 1:17:43.000 not to suppress it. But the flip side is I 1:17:43.040 --> 1:17:45.599 got to figure out how I exist in the room, 1:17:45.720 --> 1:17:48.120 because if I'm just the editor, I don't really feel 1:17:48.120 --> 1:17:51.960 that like I've earned my keep. So it's constantly. The 1:17:52.000 --> 1:17:54.760 adaptability is huge in a room. You know, you have 1:17:54.840 --> 1:17:57.080 to be able to do a lot of different skills 1:17:57.120 --> 1:18:00.479 based on you know, the artists that you're working with 1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:03.280 and many times. Most times the A and R person 1:18:03.360 --> 1:18:06.760 or the publisher whatever won't give you any exposition on 1:18:06.800 --> 1:18:08.679 the person because they don't really know what their creative 1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:10.919 process is. So you can get a room with somebody 1:18:11.200 --> 1:18:13.160 and you think, wow, they write really poetic stuff and 1:18:13.160 --> 1:18:17.080 realize that they don't have any verbal dexterity at all. 1:18:17.120 --> 1:18:20.679 They have nothing, and so you then have to become 1:18:20.760 --> 1:18:24.439 that person instantly. Other days, you know you're writing with 1:18:24.479 --> 1:18:26.680 an artist who you believe is incredibly lyrical and they're 1:18:26.720 --> 1:18:28.720 the best melodic writer you've ever seen, but maybe they 1:18:28.720 --> 1:18:31.000 don't do the things. And in other days they say, oh, 1:18:31.080 --> 1:18:32.400 they don't really have a lot to say, and you're 1:18:32.400 --> 1:18:35.040 sitting with somebody and they write the most profound shit. 1:18:35.160 --> 1:18:37.800 I wrote a song with a sixteen year old kid 1:18:37.800 --> 1:18:41.320 from London named James t w and a great writer 1:18:41.400 --> 1:18:44.439 named Nolan Sipe. It's about nine years ago. We wrote 1:18:44.439 --> 1:18:47.960 the song called what You Loved Someone, and it was 1:18:48.000 --> 1:18:52.639 written from the perspective of parents coming home and telling 1:18:52.720 --> 1:18:56.720 their child that they were getting divorced, and it's sort 1:18:56.760 --> 1:19:00.760 of all the fallout from that. This is not a 1:19:00.800 --> 1:19:05.240 fun song. I would tell you it's probably the best 1:19:05.280 --> 1:19:09.439 song I've ever written. Really yeah, and it's a huge song, 1:19:09.600 --> 1:19:12.600 like globally huge song, seven hundred million streams. I'm like, 1:19:12.680 --> 1:19:14.840 that's a big tune. But what's interesting about it is 1:19:15.200 --> 1:19:17.320 Nolan and I, who are both pros with a lot 1:19:17.320 --> 1:19:20.040 of hits, we didn't come up with that topic. The 1:19:20.080 --> 1:19:21.040 sixteen year old did. 1:19:21.240 --> 1:19:22.400 Really, he guided it. 1:19:22.479 --> 1:19:24.840 We just like then wrote the song, but it was 1:19:24.880 --> 1:19:27.760 his vision and he really guided it, and you know, 1:19:27.880 --> 1:19:30.000 and his melodies were beautiful and he had some really 1:19:30.000 --> 1:19:33.400 great lines, and also he's a great guitarist. But there 1:19:33.439 --> 1:19:36.360 was no exposition with that. No one ever said to me, Hey, 1:19:36.360 --> 1:19:37.599 when you get in the room with the sixteen year 1:19:37.600 --> 1:19:39.560 old kid, he's gonna write the most profound shit of 1:19:39.600 --> 1:19:43.400 your career. It's like, you don't know. And so the 1:19:43.520 --> 1:19:47.559 number one skill as a songwriter and an aspiring writer 1:19:48.080 --> 1:19:52.479 at any level is to read a room. And reading 1:19:52.479 --> 1:19:55.840 a room is priceless, and if you don't have that ability, 1:19:56.640 --> 1:19:59.120 it's going to be hard to be a collaborator because 1:19:59.160 --> 1:20:00.560 you have to know when at the foot on the 1:20:00.560 --> 1:20:02.240 gas and you have to know when to slam on 1:20:02.280 --> 1:20:04.720 the brakes and just get out of the way, and 1:20:05.240 --> 1:20:07.519 it changes every single day. So That's what I'm saying. 1:20:07.560 --> 1:20:08.880 You never get to a place of comfort with it 1:20:08.880 --> 1:20:11.360 because if you are going with the same, if you're 1:20:11.360 --> 1:20:13.839 going if you're treating it with some sort of repetition 1:20:13.920 --> 1:20:16.040 every single day, doing the same routine, it won't work. 1:20:16.400 --> 1:20:19.120 You're dealing with different especially and you're on a treadmill 1:20:19.160 --> 1:20:21.760 of sessions. And then the biggest mind fuck of all 1:20:22.320 --> 1:20:24.240 is that you can write something that you believe is 1:20:24.360 --> 1:20:29.120 absolutely game changing, but you still have that awful voice 1:20:29.160 --> 1:20:32.000 in the back of your head that says, tomorrow, this 1:20:32.040 --> 1:20:35.000 person's writing with a whole new configuration, and they're younger, 1:20:35.640 --> 1:20:39.759 and they're hot, and they are, you know, having their moment, 1:20:40.240 --> 1:20:42.559 and he's going to fall in love with that grouping 1:20:42.680 --> 1:20:46.080 because they're cooler, and they'll end up getting maybe the 1:20:46.479 --> 1:20:48.920 single or the cut that even though you really feel 1:20:48.920 --> 1:20:50.840 like you wrote the most powerful shit ever, it just 1:20:50.880 --> 1:20:52.040 messes with your head all day long. 1:20:57.280 --> 1:21:01.160 You're like a lyric first guy always, And I know 1:21:01.200 --> 1:21:03.759 for a fact that guys like Max Martin are melody 1:21:03.800 --> 1:21:09.080 first guys. So but like both of you have written 1:21:09.120 --> 1:21:12.519 hits and for totally different reasons. He's written more, sure, 1:21:12.560 --> 1:21:14.880 he has, and he's written a ton and he would 1:21:14.880 --> 1:21:16.679 if he was here, he would have something. 1:21:16.479 --> 1:21:18.720 To say about this. But whatever, Well he's better than me. 1:21:18.880 --> 1:21:21.720 No, God, why this is not a competition. It is 1:21:21.760 --> 1:21:23.360 a competition. It is a fucking competition. 1:21:23.880 --> 1:21:25.599 He's Max Martin, but like, but. 1:21:25.600 --> 1:21:27.479 Like with Max, he always talking about Melly, right, So 1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:29.160 it's Mellody, million, Mellion, Melly, and I feel like his 1:21:29.200 --> 1:21:31.479 disciples are melliy million Melldy. And you live in more 1:21:31.520 --> 1:21:34.479 of like the this is shitt example Bob Dylan lyrical world. 1:21:34.560 --> 1:21:37.680 And I think that that's so interesting because at the 1:21:37.760 --> 1:21:39.559 end of the day, a fucking hit is a hit. 1:21:40.000 --> 1:21:42.200 So like you've written a hit, he's written hit. I've 1:21:42.240 --> 1:21:45.200 been on the same charts in different places. But like, 1:21:45.640 --> 1:21:47.000 why is it that? 1:21:47.720 --> 1:21:49.599 Because like, why is it that his songs are bigger? 1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:55.720 Because because he's better, because he's why let's start there. No, 1:21:55.800 --> 1:21:57.000 but what I would say is one thing I would 1:21:57.000 --> 1:21:57.559 say is. 1:21:57.439 --> 1:21:59.080 But how can you have that different approach and still 1:21:59.080 --> 1:21:59.679 have the same outcome? 1:21:59.720 --> 1:22:02.680 I guess, well, melody is king, right, So I've been 1:22:02.880 --> 1:22:08.559 with you, it's not with me. But I think maybe 1:22:08.600 --> 1:22:13.400 I'm lucky because truthfully, at this point, melody supersedes everything. 1:22:13.680 --> 1:22:16.760 The one thing that helps me lyrically is I'm pretty conceptual, 1:22:17.360 --> 1:22:21.519 So songs like you know a check Yes, Juliet, or 1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:23.519 one of these things that sneaks through one of these 1:22:23.600 --> 1:22:26.400 like quirky hand clap, handclaps, A pretty quirky little tune, 1:22:26.439 --> 1:22:28.759 you know, might be the biggest song in my career 1:22:29.200 --> 1:22:31.559 might be And it's a it's a quirky little number, 1:22:31.640 --> 1:22:35.080 and it didn't come from a melodic place. It came 1:22:35.120 --> 1:22:37.519 from a lyrical place. I mean that was based on like, 1:22:37.640 --> 1:22:39.680 you know, that's a there's a real shape to what 1:22:39.760 --> 1:22:41.599 I wrote there, and there was a reason for it. 1:22:41.640 --> 1:22:44.960 And then fits really stepped in and with that, you know, 1:22:45.080 --> 1:22:49.479 the crazy blown out horn sample thing. And when we 1:22:49.520 --> 1:22:52.719 wrote that thing, it was obvious that it was very unique. 1:22:52.960 --> 1:22:55.360 But that's a that's that's the kind of record that 1:22:55.439 --> 1:22:58.320 I love because it's it's kind of a morphous I 1:22:58.320 --> 1:23:01.000 don't really know what hand clap is. It's not really alternative, 1:23:01.040 --> 1:23:02.800 it's not really pop, I don't know what is. It's 1:23:02.840 --> 1:23:06.280 kind of weird. And those are my favorite tunes. The 1:23:06.360 --> 1:23:08.519 quirky ones are the things that I really react to 1:23:08.640 --> 1:23:11.640 because they're a little bit off, because that's where no 1:23:11.680 --> 1:23:14.519 one can fuck with me. Like, if I'm trying to 1:23:14.520 --> 1:23:19.519 write something that's hyper melodic, there's like an entire country 1:23:19.560 --> 1:23:20.880 of Sweden that can outright me. 1:23:21.400 --> 1:23:23.040 So it's not a big country. 1:23:22.840 --> 1:23:28.800 I just so I know that lyric and concept is 1:23:28.840 --> 1:23:30.360 going to be the place that I can enter the 1:23:30.360 --> 1:23:34.320 building first and then you know, just sort of piece 1:23:34.360 --> 1:23:36.520 it together to the best of my ability. But that's 1:23:36.120 --> 1:23:39.439 my that's my greatest skill, you know. But you're right 1:23:39.560 --> 1:23:41.080 in terms of we all can end up in the 1:23:41.120 --> 1:23:44.679 same place. But what's interesting is a guy like Max 1:23:44.880 --> 1:23:48.760 and some of these writers who are so blessed melodically, 1:23:49.520 --> 1:23:51.679 they can kind of hit it every time out because 1:23:51.680 --> 1:23:53.920 they just hear things that other people don't hear. For me, 1:23:53.960 --> 1:23:56.799 it's a little harder because I have to these concepts 1:23:56.840 --> 1:23:58.600 have to be really unique to me and really and 1:23:58.640 --> 1:24:01.000 they have to sort of hit beat that I feel 1:24:01.040 --> 1:24:05.200 like are just so uniquely me that maybe it'll raise 1:24:05.240 --> 1:24:06.200 its hand. Yeah. 1:24:06.600 --> 1:24:08.680 So we've been talking for a long time and we 1:24:08.720 --> 1:24:11.599 can stop at any time. But I have two more 1:24:11.720 --> 1:24:15.120 questions that I think are important ominaries. I'm a sagittari. 1:24:15.280 --> 1:24:20.120 Okay, so is my wife? See sort of explains it all. 1:24:21.040 --> 1:24:24.479 It's all coming very cleared out, all right, So I 1:24:24.520 --> 1:24:25.080 have two questions. 1:24:25.080 --> 1:24:25.360 All right. 1:24:25.360 --> 1:24:27.840 My first question is because people ask me this, like 1:24:28.080 --> 1:24:31.040 do you know when you have a hit? I know 1:24:31.080 --> 1:24:32.800 that's like such a generic question, but I feel like 1:24:32.800 --> 1:24:35.880 it's important because I do. Sometimes you're like, in my 1:24:36.160 --> 1:24:38.080 so's I'll talk about me for a second. Sometimes I 1:24:38.120 --> 1:24:40.280 feel like I fucking killed it, and then I'll send 1:24:40.280 --> 1:24:41.760 it to whoever sent it and they're like, this is 1:24:41.800 --> 1:24:43.800 the worst. Sometimes I'll write what I believe is the 1:24:43.840 --> 1:24:45.640 biggest piece of shit of all time and they'll be like, 1:24:45.640 --> 1:24:48.040 it's fucking genius, and I don't and and I've been 1:24:48.080 --> 1:24:50.200 doing this for not as long as you have, but 1:24:50.240 --> 1:24:53.200 long enough, and I still don't know, And like, to me, 1:24:55.040 --> 1:24:56.960 that's a little bit of the excitement that I still 1:24:57.160 --> 1:25:00.000 can't fucking figure this out. After thirty years, twenty five 1:25:00.080 --> 1:25:02.640 years of doing this, I still can't figure out. I 1:25:02.800 --> 1:25:04.320 should be able to fit, but I still can't. 1:25:04.360 --> 1:25:06.600 I definitely know, you know, one hundred percent. 1:25:06.360 --> 1:25:08.960 Okay, because I asked Max the same question and he 1:25:09.400 --> 1:25:11.200 we were talking about how great he is. He's like, 1:25:11.520 --> 1:25:13.960 everything to him is super subjective. So it's always just 1:25:14.000 --> 1:25:15.439 like I don't know. It's how I felt that day, 1:25:15.479 --> 1:25:17.240 like why'd you write this? No? No, how I felt that 1:25:17.360 --> 1:25:20.240 day like there's no I think. I think there's an 1:25:20.280 --> 1:25:22.439 idea that there's like a math and a science to it, 1:25:22.479 --> 1:25:23.960 and I think some of it is. But I think 1:25:24.000 --> 1:25:26.599 a lot of it, more so than you would think, 1:25:26.960 --> 1:25:30.240 is super subjective, where it's just like can I say something, yes, sorry, 1:25:30.280 --> 1:25:36.120 I'm talking a lot. Fuck that guy all high and 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:39.720 low here quest Love Supreme starring Bill had said this 1:25:39.800 --> 1:25:42.760 is what this is What I would say. 1:25:42.720 --> 1:25:45.280 Is I get the you know, I get a galvanic 1:25:45.400 --> 1:25:49.040 response sort of it happens. There's certain songs where I 1:25:49.160 --> 1:25:51.360 just instantly the chills start. 1:25:51.200 --> 1:25:53.280 Like handclap. Did you know one hundred percent? You did 1:25:54.760 --> 1:25:56.559 one hundred percent? Of course you said those songs are 1:25:56.560 --> 1:25:58.600 fucking awesome, you dick? All right? 1:26:00.600 --> 1:26:03.400 You know Someone to You by Banners a song that 1:26:05.160 --> 1:26:09.519 nobody really heard. We heard, Steve Day and our guy heard. 1:26:10.400 --> 1:26:13.000 I don't even know if if Mike the artist heard, 1:26:13.320 --> 1:26:16.160 but I was convinced that Someone to You by Banners 1:26:17.000 --> 1:26:18.559 the second it left the room. I was like, man, 1:26:18.600 --> 1:26:20.800 I just think I wrote a perfect song, like as 1:26:20.800 --> 1:26:23.640 good as I can get I believed everything about the 1:26:23.680 --> 1:26:26.960 song would work. Everything was stacked against this song. It 1:26:27.000 --> 1:26:29.080 took five and a half years for it to break. 1:26:29.520 --> 1:26:31.840 It'll be at a billion streams in a year. It's 1:26:31.880 --> 1:26:34.479 a big song. And the truth is I knew it 1:26:34.560 --> 1:26:36.680 the second this kid left the room. And this is 1:26:36.720 --> 1:26:38.800 like a young artist who you know, was at the 1:26:38.840 --> 1:26:40.200 stage in his career where I don't know if he 1:26:40.200 --> 1:26:42.439 could sell out of Starbucks yet, but I knew the 1:26:42.479 --> 1:26:45.760 song was perfect. And they're just all you need to 1:26:45.840 --> 1:26:50.280 There's certain songs, you know. You know I knew check, yes, Julia, 1:26:50.360 --> 1:26:51.840 it was going to be huge. I know there's just 1:26:51.920 --> 1:26:55.720 certain ones along the way. You know, I could pinpoint 1:26:56.200 --> 1:27:00.320 you know that. I definitely wait for Superman by Docot 1:27:00.320 --> 1:27:02.800 would be a big song. They're just songs where we 1:27:02.880 --> 1:27:04.240 leave the room and I think, wow, this is a 1:27:04.280 --> 1:27:06.599 big this just works. I can see it sort of. 1:27:06.560 --> 1:27:08.200 And was it like a chill thing because that happens 1:27:08.200 --> 1:27:09.400 to me from time to time where it's like you 1:27:09.479 --> 1:27:12.559 hear something you're like, oh, I can't not trust my body. 1:27:12.600 --> 1:27:13.719 Having a completely out. 1:27:13.600 --> 1:27:16.240 Of band cloud, high Hopes, Check Ustruliat, all three of them. 1:27:16.320 --> 1:27:18.520 Yes, Yeah, I believe that absolutely. 1:27:18.080 --> 1:27:20.439 And also the Banner song, and also that James c. 1:27:20.640 --> 1:27:23.120 W ballad. I left there and I thought to myself, Okay, 1:27:23.280 --> 1:27:25.719 when you love someone, it's like a mid tempo e ballad. 1:27:25.960 --> 1:27:28.760 It doesn't really have a pulse and it's not a 1:27:28.840 --> 1:27:31.080 rhythmic record. I have no idea who's going to play 1:27:31.080 --> 1:27:33.559 this thing. And it's the best song I've ever written. 1:27:33.840 --> 1:27:37.240 It's gonna get heard, and it did. And people find things. 1:27:37.240 --> 1:27:40.120 Sometimes people find things that are pretty good. Doesn't happen 1:27:40.120 --> 1:27:42.519 a lot now there's so much content out there. It's harder. 1:27:43.000 --> 1:27:46.479 But sometimes if something actually you know, and trust me, 1:27:46.560 --> 1:27:48.680 everything I do isn't that good, But every once in 1:27:48.720 --> 1:27:50.760 a while one of them is. And I like to 1:27:50.800 --> 1:27:53.639 believe there are very few that I think people really 1:27:53.680 --> 1:27:54.960 slept on, do you know what I mean. I don't 1:27:55.040 --> 1:27:57.439 look back. I don't have that catalog full of songs 1:27:57.439 --> 1:27:59.800 where I think, oh, this should have been, should have 1:27:59.800 --> 1:28:02.360 been if they if they weren't hits, it's usually a 1:28:02.400 --> 1:28:03.200 reason they weren't. 1:28:03.560 --> 1:28:06.040 Is there one song you wish you had written? 1:28:06.840 --> 1:28:07.719 Changes daily? 1:28:09.240 --> 1:28:10.719 I love that's your answer. 1:28:11.520 --> 1:28:15.240 It really changes daily. I think the you know, I think, 1:28:15.280 --> 1:28:19.519 at the end of the day, best of my Love 1:28:19.600 --> 1:28:22.559 by the Emotions is a song. I think that's the 1:28:22.920 --> 1:28:25.600 to me, that's the most perfect record I can think of. 1:28:25.800 --> 1:28:28.679 Or September by earth Wind and Fire, both of those 1:28:28.680 --> 1:28:30.800 Alley willis earth Wind and Fire. One thing about both 1:28:30.840 --> 1:28:36.720 of those songs, is it Morey's white? Is they got 1:28:36.840 --> 1:28:39.240 feel good? Right? I like feel good records. I like 1:28:39.400 --> 1:28:43.160 music that's uplifting and feels good. You know, I've only 1:28:43.200 --> 1:28:46.479 had two ballads work in my entire life. When labels 1:28:46.520 --> 1:28:48.840 call and say, oh, this just needs a ballad for 1:28:48.880 --> 1:28:51.920 this record, I tell them to call somebody else because 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:55.040 I'm not that good. I like feel good, and I 1:28:55.080 --> 1:28:58.559 do it because it probably I'm creating natural dopamine for 1:28:58.600 --> 1:29:01.360 all my low's. I want to make music that balance 1:29:01.479 --> 1:29:03.479 is how dark I can get. 1:29:04.160 --> 1:29:05.840 It turns out yeah, pretty dark. 1:29:05.920 --> 1:29:09.600 Yeah, So it's like that. That's how I that's what 1:29:09.640 --> 1:29:11.840 I need to get to to keep my sanity. And 1:29:11.920 --> 1:29:16.360 so records, those those classics that do that thing are 1:29:16.439 --> 1:29:19.120 so beyond my capability, and I do my versions of 1:29:19.160 --> 1:29:21.760 them and they're never on one hundredth is good and 1:29:21.880 --> 1:29:23.559 just that those are the records. So basically I want 1:29:23.560 --> 1:29:25.120 to be more white. I think I've just learned. 1:29:25.720 --> 1:29:31.599 I mean could be worse. All right, sorry, Uh Sam 1:29:31.680 --> 1:29:33.800 has to receive a phone call from Carol King. 1:29:34.200 --> 1:29:36.960 Uh Hi, hold on a second, Hi, please let it 1:29:37.000 --> 1:29:39.960 be Carol wrapping up. Hold on, it's my daughters. 1:29:39.439 --> 1:29:42.519 Your daughter, my daughter, she's good. Okay, No, no. 1:29:42.400 --> 1:29:44.040 Don't you know called me in the car once. That 1:29:44.120 --> 1:29:47.040 was a great flex. Ringo calls in the car. Fuck yeah, 1:29:47.040 --> 1:29:49.320 I got Ringo calls. And the one that I'd say 1:29:49.320 --> 1:29:50.720 is Ringo called in the car one day and I 1:29:50.720 --> 1:29:52.920 was driving around with it here. This is like the 1:29:53.000 --> 1:29:54.240 name drop of all name drops. 1:29:54.680 --> 1:29:55.639 Is it Ringo? Please say? 1:29:55.840 --> 1:29:58.000 Oh my god, no, it's my you know love this. 1:29:58.000 --> 1:29:59.920 This is what my life's devolved to. Is my parking. 1:30:00.439 --> 1:30:03.000 My parking expires in ten minutes in not Grisco, New York. 1:30:03.240 --> 1:30:11.120 Just important factory. But right now fun fight, definitely not. 1:30:11.600 --> 1:30:15.160 But one thing I'll tell you about Ringo is it 1:30:15.200 --> 1:30:17.080 took me like five years to even get his phone number. 1:30:17.120 --> 1:30:18.960 And we you know, we wrote a bunch of songs 1:30:19.040 --> 1:30:21.320 and finally I hit him up. I was like, Dad, 1:30:21.360 --> 1:30:23.479 you gotta give me your phone number. And he's like, 1:30:23.840 --> 1:30:26.759 I'm not giving you my fucking number. And I was like, okay, 1:30:26.760 --> 1:30:28.639 because I'll give you like the landline in our house 1:30:28.640 --> 1:30:30.439 that goes to an answer machine. Neither I'll call you 1:30:30.520 --> 1:30:31.080 back or I won't. 1:30:31.200 --> 1:30:32.960 Like Bill Murray, Yes, it was very Bill Murray, but 1:30:33.040 --> 1:30:35.000 you know, truthfully, I did it because I'm desperate. 1:30:35.320 --> 1:30:37.400 So one night I left on a message and then 1:30:37.400 --> 1:30:39.719 I flew down to Florida and I'm driving around Florida. 1:30:39.760 --> 1:30:44.080 You're gonna dig this flex. It's me, my my brother's 1:30:44.120 --> 1:30:48.000 brother in law, Peter and Bill Cower, ex coach of 1:30:48.040 --> 1:30:49.759 the Hall of Fame, coach of the Lisburgs Dealers. 1:30:49.840 --> 1:30:52.719 Yeah, Jesus. And we're driving home with cousin Jake. Who's 1:30:52.760 --> 1:30:53.840 fucking cousin Jake? 1:30:53.840 --> 1:30:56.120 How about this visual? So we're riding around, it's Cower 1:30:56.640 --> 1:31:00.880 and Peter and the phone rings and answer it and 1:31:00.920 --> 1:31:03.680 I hear, hey, you don't think you help him in? 1:31:03.800 --> 1:31:06.559 And I do do, and I just go right to 1:31:06.600 --> 1:31:09.519 speaker with it with no exposition. I'm like, what's up, man, 1:31:09.760 --> 1:31:11.800 what do you got? He's like, what are you doing? 1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:14.120 And I just see both of their faces sort of 1:31:14.160 --> 1:31:16.720 do that thing, and I go, hey, Ringo, say how 1:31:16.720 --> 1:31:20.880 to coach Bill and Peter. It's a true story, and 1:31:21.640 --> 1:31:25.519 Ringo definitely. I didn't. You know, I didn't go further 1:31:25.600 --> 1:31:26.960 on coach Bill or Peter. 1:31:27.080 --> 1:31:28.840 What's on your phone? Did it say Ringo? 1:31:29.000 --> 1:31:31.760 No? So the thing about it is he he's one 1:31:31.800 --> 1:31:33.760 of those people who comes with one of the block 1:31:33.800 --> 1:31:36.880 numbers or whatever. Yeah, so it says, and so I 1:31:36.880 --> 1:31:38.760 think that's either there's only three people I know who 1:31:38.800 --> 1:31:42.639 have that. It's Ringo, my friend Matt Nathanson, and another flex. 1:31:42.720 --> 1:31:44.080 Those are very different people. 1:31:44.520 --> 1:31:50.599 You've never seen them in the same room, and. 1:31:48.479 --> 1:31:50.840 Nor would you ever Why would bring gooing Matt. 1:31:50.760 --> 1:31:54.360 Nathan ever go Matt Nathanson and my brother Ben. My 1:31:54.400 --> 1:31:56.240 brother Ben calls for one of those numbers too, So 1:31:56.520 --> 1:31:56.800 how do. 1:31:56.880 --> 1:31:59.880 You answer it? FBI, He's just he's a very covert fella, 1:32:00.160 --> 1:32:00.400 you know. 1:32:00.920 --> 1:32:03.479 But I would say so somewhere, So I answered it. 1:32:03.479 --> 1:32:06.120 It happened to be Ringo. And that was a great 1:32:06.120 --> 1:32:09.479 reveal for everyone in the car. Okay, that's all I got, 1:32:10.560 --> 1:32:12.439 you know, the good folks. I just want to I 1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:18.600 want to thank him here. That was honestly, thank you. 1:32:18.720 --> 1:32:21.599 I'd get so much for this. This might hey, Jake, 1:32:21.640 --> 1:32:24.400 this might be my last and only podcast. 1:32:24.560 --> 1:32:25.800 Can we just say one thing? 1:32:25.880 --> 1:32:27.880 Yeah, Cop Rock cop Rock. 1:32:28.080 --> 1:32:30.960 Why is ninety Stephen Botchko one season replacement? 1:32:31.040 --> 1:32:37.320 Sam Hollander, You the king of the name dropped like Minutia. 1:32:37.400 --> 1:32:39.080 You know it was a great mid season replacement. 1:32:39.280 --> 1:32:39.880 Who what? 1:32:40.240 --> 1:32:42.519 Manimal? Google? Manimal? 1:32:42.640 --> 1:32:43.160 What was that? 1:32:43.240 --> 1:32:45.200 Y'all weren't born yet? But if you know Manimal? 1:32:45.479 --> 1:32:46.479 How old are you really? 1:32:46.920 --> 1:32:50.240 Uh? Well, we say so far? Twenty eight ninety four? 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:52.800 Pie carry the one. 1:32:53.080 --> 1:32:55.040 You're Honestly, a lot of people would say seven. 1:32:55.320 --> 1:32:57.240 You're fifty? Your what fifty two? 1:32:57.479 --> 1:33:00.439 I don't know what that is? What is a fifty? Wow? 1:33:00.439 --> 1:33:01.000 Old are you really? 1:33:01.040 --> 1:33:01.800 I don't know. 1:33:02.200 --> 1:33:07.879 You look like you piloted Jimmy Buffett's boat. 1:33:07.960 --> 1:33:11.000 She should look like should look like me and Jack 1:33:11.080 --> 1:33:16.679 Klugman at the racetrack, you know, ponies in nineteen sixty nine. 1:33:17.000 --> 1:33:19.840 I think collectively that you and I look like Stafford 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:22.599 and Waldorf from the fucking Muppets, and we could probably 1:33:22.680 --> 1:33:25.639 be them when we get a little bit older or 1:33:25.640 --> 1:33:26.040 for you. 1:33:26.000 --> 1:33:28.800 Not old for me, for you, just man for me 1:33:28.880 --> 1:33:29.479 growing down? 1:33:29.640 --> 1:33:32.880 Yeah, Okay, it looks like you run a teaky bar 1:33:33.160 --> 1:33:33.960 in Marathon. 1:33:34.120 --> 1:33:37.519 Key. Look here's the thing. I'm a festive guys. I 1:33:37.560 --> 1:33:42.720 think you've noticed and I'm spirited. I'm joyous until i'm not. 1:33:42.880 --> 1:33:48.040 You look like you celebrate Hanukkah three hundred and sixties 1:33:48.640 --> 1:33:53.439 in Margarita Ville. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much 1:33:53.479 --> 1:33:55.960 for listening to me and Sam talk about songwriting and 1:33:56.000 --> 1:33:59.200 our lives and Judaism and all those things. Okay, I'll 1:33:59.240 --> 1:34:01.320 leave it this because I look, we've known each other 1:34:01.439 --> 1:34:03.519 a while. I don't read books. I read your whole 1:34:03.520 --> 1:34:05.280 fucking book, Sam, and I feel like you need to 1:34:05.560 --> 1:34:07.040 understand that that's a big deal. 1:34:07.200 --> 1:34:07.880 Let me tell you something. 1:34:07.920 --> 1:34:10.000 But hold on, No, no, you talked a lot. I'm talking, 1:34:10.240 --> 1:34:13.519 so then it is your interview. But who cares. Okay, 1:34:13.640 --> 1:34:15.880 there's a great there's a great line where you're giving 1:34:15.960 --> 1:34:17.680 with one of your bonus cut tracks, whatever the hell 1:34:17.720 --> 1:34:20.240 you call it. You wrote you write stay Wild and 1:34:20.280 --> 1:34:22.680 stay Weird, And I feel like that hit home for me. 1:34:23.080 --> 1:34:25.800 The reason is is because I think that that's important. 1:34:25.840 --> 1:34:27.760 Like if there's anything I've learned from Sam, it's like 1:34:27.800 --> 1:34:29.920 he's a true original. He doesn't succumb to any of 1:34:29.920 --> 1:34:33.000 the bullshit, and he does Sam, and I feel like that, 1:34:33.560 --> 1:34:36.439 in addition to this shirt is like really sums the 1:34:36.439 --> 1:34:38.400 whole thing up, and I think that if you want 1:34:38.400 --> 1:34:41.360 to leave anything here, personally speaking, I want to leave 1:34:41.400 --> 1:34:43.080 with that, and I think that that's a good moment. 1:34:43.520 --> 1:34:45.839 Thank you very much, Sam Hollander, You're a fucking legend 1:34:46.160 --> 1:34:47.040 to say whatever you want. 1:34:47.479 --> 1:34:48.679 It's a Paul Smith shirt. 1:34:49.920 --> 1:34:53.160 It costs so much money in addition to my customs, 1:34:53.240 --> 1:34:56.599 Ford Broncos and all of this in Bedford Hills. 1:34:57.160 --> 1:34:59.120 Can I say something, can say something? Yes, yes, go ahead. 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:02.720 Here's what I would say. The most important thing I 1:35:02.800 --> 1:35:04.360 want to say about stay wild and stay weird. 1:35:04.479 --> 1:35:05.800 I thought so that should be your shirt. 1:35:05.800 --> 1:35:08.960 You know, market What I believe, I truly believe this 1:35:09.680 --> 1:35:15.240 is if you are blessed enough to do this with 1:35:15.320 --> 1:35:18.880 your life professionally, and you catch some breaks and you 1:35:18.920 --> 1:35:23.719 actually get to, you know, turn some of these weird 1:35:23.880 --> 1:35:25.400 fucking dreams and realities. 1:35:25.840 --> 1:35:29.360 It should never be lost on you how crazy it is. 1:35:30.120 --> 1:35:33.240 And don't conform. If you ever were able to permeate 1:35:33.280 --> 1:35:35.679 the system as an outsider, I was the ultimate outsider. 1:35:35.680 --> 1:35:38.200 I didn't want to play with inside the lines. I mean, honestly, 1:35:38.320 --> 1:35:44.479 I'm so unfiltered, and usually you're punished for that. But thankfully, 1:35:44.479 --> 1:35:46.800 the music business if you have any success, you're actually 1:35:46.880 --> 1:35:50.479 rewarded for it, which is crazy. And so what I've 1:35:50.520 --> 1:35:54.040 learned in all these years of doing it is I just, honestly, 1:35:54.080 --> 1:35:57.160 I trust my own weird little inner mechanisms. I chase 1:35:57.240 --> 1:36:00.439 whatever I chase, and I'm just I don't have the 1:36:00.439 --> 1:36:03.479 best time possible doing it because I still wake up 1:36:03.520 --> 1:36:05.920 every fucking day and I can't even believe that I 1:36:05.960 --> 1:36:08.559 got to do this in my life because there were 1:36:08.640 --> 1:36:10.320 not a lot of other options. 1:36:11.520 --> 1:36:14.120 Take it from us, two lawyers, Thank you, goodnight, thank you, 1:36:17.160 --> 1:36:19.560 thank you for listening to Quest Love Supreme. This podcast 1:36:19.600 --> 1:36:23.400 is hosted by Mere Quest Love Thompson, Liyah Saint, Clair Sugar, 1:36:23.439 --> 1:36:27.440 Steve Mandel, and myself unpaid Bill Schrman. The executive producers 1:36:27.439 --> 1:36:30.920 are Meir just walked into the Goddamn room, Thompson, Sean 1:36:31.040 --> 1:36:34.679 g and Brian Calhoun. Produced by Brittany Benjamin, Jake Paine 1:36:34.720 --> 1:36:38.360 and Liahs Sinclair. Edited by Alex Conroy I Know Alex Conroy. 1:36:38.720 --> 1:36:41.439 Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown. 1:36:49.280 --> 1:36:57.840 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For 1:36:57.960 --> 1:37:01.559 more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple 1:37:01.600 --> 1:37:04.320 Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,