1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:09,039
Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Questlove Supreme.

3
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,520
Speaker 2: I'm not Questlove or Supreme, but it is an honor

4
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,680
Speaker 2: to be here Today's especial. Today we are doing one

5
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,760
Speaker 2: on ones. I suppose no Team Supreme, just me Unpaid

6
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,360
Speaker 2: Bill and we can get into why I called Unpaid

7
00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,720
Speaker 2: Bill if you like, because it's just me so I

8
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 2: have a lot of time to talk about myself in

9
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,240
Speaker 2: other news. Today's guest is I will say, one of

10
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,840
Speaker 2: the most interesting, enigmatic, incredible people I have ever met

11
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,560
Speaker 2: in my life, and we have only known each other

12
00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,640
Speaker 2: for like what like a year and a half. Maybe

13
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,600
Speaker 2: let's just go with it. Okay, I had this whole

14
00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,520
Speaker 2: big intro plan, but I think we should just get

15
00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:55,360
Speaker 2: into it. Today's guest is songwriter, producer, composer, top liner, father, husband,

16
00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:00,960
Speaker 2: and all around incredible human being. Sam Hollander. Yes, Ca, okay,

17
00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,240
Speaker 2: here we call your name is Sam. My name is Sam,

18
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,280
Speaker 2: So Sam. I suppose you've listened to a few Quest

19
00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 2: Love Supremes over time, couple. Okay, you know when they

20
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,399
Speaker 2: asked me to do a one on one, the first

21
00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,200
Speaker 2: person I thought it was you because people don't necessarily

22
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,959
Speaker 2: I mean, you did write a book about yourself, which

23
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:17,679
Speaker 2: was a nice touch.

24
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 3: I thoughts up for.

25
00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,119
Speaker 2: Just you know, so people would know who you are,

26
00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,600
Speaker 2: but you are responsible for so many things that I

27
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,760
Speaker 2: don't think the majority of listeners may or may not know.

28
00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,679
Speaker 2: And so I thought we'd get into them all. And

29
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,959
Speaker 2: I think my favorite way to start all quest Love Supremes,

30
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,280
Speaker 2: which is the most way, is where were you born?

31
00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,200
Speaker 3: Well, let me just start off by saying, it is

32
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:41,120
Speaker 3: an honor to be Questlove Supreme. I know you were

33
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,320
Speaker 3: looking for mid season summer replacements, and I feel like

34
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 3: I'm sort of like Stephen Botchko's nineteen ninety cop Rock

35
00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 3: right or you know it was. It was highly heralded

36
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 3: and then forgettable. And that's sort of the story of

37
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,360
Speaker 3: my life. So I was born in New York City, Bill.

38
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,160
Speaker 3: I was born in New York City, and uh through

39
00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 3: some of the darker times in the city. It was

40
00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,360
Speaker 3: a very violent, violent place, and my parents ushered me

41
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 3: out of here to Westchester County, and eventually, through lots

42
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 3: of stops and starts, I ended up in Bedford Hills,

43
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,359
Speaker 3: New York, site of the Bedford Hills Correctional Women's Correctional Prison.

44
00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 3: You might remember Gene Harris who murdered the Scarsdale diet doctor.

45
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,080
Speaker 3: She would have been one of the many I would

46
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 3: I would remember that. Do they call him tenants?

47
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:31,520
Speaker 2: Inmates?

48
00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,400
Speaker 3: Inmates? I like tenants better. Bedford Hills attended fox Lane

49
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,799
Speaker 3: High School. You might know it from Dukes of Hazzard's

50
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,280
Speaker 3: John Schneider bo Duke was in fact a fox Laner,

51
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,920
Speaker 3: as well as Susan Day from the Partridge family, KIMMYA. Dawson,

52
00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,000
Speaker 3: Moldy Peaches, MRSA Winaker. The list goes on and on.

53
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,320
Speaker 2: Are you here to speak on behalf of Fox Lene schools?

54
00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,120
Speaker 3: It's like a recruiting tread. I'm here for That's what

55
00:02:58,160 --> 00:02:58,600
Speaker 3: I'm doing.

56
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 2: Sam. Yes, what is your first musical memory as a child?

57
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,360
Speaker 2: Because you have. For those who don't know, Sam wrote

58
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 2: a book, and I highly recommend reading the book for

59
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:08,840
Speaker 2: two reasons.

60
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,040
Speaker 3: It's a salacious tell all.

61
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,600
Speaker 2: It is a salacious tell all from a very silacious life.

62
00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 2: Lad No. The best part about your book, in my

63
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 2: personal humble opinion, is not only that it's you have

64
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,239
Speaker 2: an incredible story and it's almost impossible to believe any

65
00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,400
Speaker 2: of it to be honest. I mean, but there's parts

66
00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,440
Speaker 2: in it, and this is important. There are parts in

67
00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,560
Speaker 2: it that any producer, anyone interested in music, any engineer

68
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,920
Speaker 2: or mixer, or anybody who even wants to be anywhere

69
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 2: near music and needs a piece of advice, an unsolicited

70
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 2: piece of advice, and not like in a dickhead way,

71
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,720
Speaker 2: like in a I've lived this life and I'm going

72
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,400
Speaker 2: to tell you about it and how to get there.

73
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,200
Speaker 2: There are what you call what is it called in

74
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,960
Speaker 2: the book footnotes, Yeah, the footnotes, and there's other things

75
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:51,560
Speaker 2: you put in.

76
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,000
Speaker 3: The bonus cuts. Bonus cut.

77
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 2: All the bonus cuts are these parts of these random

78
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 2: paragraphs in the book where it's just pieces of advice.

79
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 2: Like some of them are go to events that as

80
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,280
Speaker 2: kap or B and my sponsor and meet people. And

81
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of the book is about

82
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 2: networking and talking to people and what I like to

83
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 2: call the other side of our job, which is like

84
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,240
Speaker 2: the bullshit. Well, you can be the greatest writer, the

85
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,680
Speaker 2: greatest musician of all time. If you're a dick and

86
00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,120
Speaker 2: no one wants to hang out with you, then no

87
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:20,560
Speaker 2: one's going to hire you to do anything.

88
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,040
Speaker 3: I learned something pretty early on, right, So I mean,

89
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,960
Speaker 3: I'll get back to earliest musical memory. But I did

90
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,440
Speaker 3: learn something early on when I started to have any

91
00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:33,160
Speaker 3: morsel of success. Jonathan Daniel, who owns Crush Management, is

92
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,720
Speaker 3: one of my best friends and really my mentor in

93
00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,480
Speaker 3: many ways. One day, I was melting down about something

94
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,680
Speaker 3: and I can get kind of fiery, and he took

95
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 3: me for a walk and he put it in such

96
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,720
Speaker 3: succinct terms. He said, you know, everybody likes happy Sam,

97
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,240
Speaker 3: nobody likes angry Sam. And I walked away from that

98
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 3: and it was like a Yoda moment, you know, and

99
00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 3: it dawned on me. Likability is something and I never

100
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,880
Speaker 3: really took stock in it. You know, I'm genuinely curious

101
00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,359
Speaker 3: about people. I like people. I'm pretty social and I

102
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 3: root for people and I think I always have to

103
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,960
Speaker 3: some extent. And you know, in the music business, that's

104
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,119
Speaker 3: something they don't tell you. It's important, is be curious

105
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,159
Speaker 3: about other people and cheer for their victories even when

106
00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,039
Speaker 3: you're losing, because there will be a moment where the

107
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 3: tables turn and you will have your moment and when

108
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,839
Speaker 3: you finally sort of actualize whatever it is that you're chasing.

109
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 3: It's just such an incredible feeling to know that people

110
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,760
Speaker 3: are actually rooting for you and not shooting darts at you.

111
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,640
Speaker 3: So that was my little sidebar. But let's get back

112
00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,479
Speaker 3: to let me get back to the genesis of it.

113
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 3: The first song I ever heard was Magic by Pilot,

114
00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,960
Speaker 3: which I believe is the ozembic song now, but before

115
00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:59,239
Speaker 3: before it was pressuring, you know, an era of weight loss.

116
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 3: It was the first first song I ever heard. I

117
00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,719
Speaker 3: think my brother had the forty five, and you know,

118
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,039
Speaker 3: I was completely hooked, and I took guitar lessons. I

119
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,039
Speaker 3: started guitar lessons at seven with a woman who was

120
00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 3: in the fast folk movement in Grawich Village and she

121
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 3: was really rad. I took a guitar for a few

122
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,039
Speaker 3: years and I quit, and I do it again, and

123
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,839
Speaker 3: I quit, and even today I have like five chords

124
00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,680
Speaker 3: at my disposal. I think it doesn't really work with

125
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:30,160
Speaker 3: my ADHD. My hyper focus doesn't exist outside of lyrically,

126
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 3: so it's very hard for me. But I do fumble

127
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,320
Speaker 3: with it and I use it in the writing process,

128
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 3: as we'll discuss. But you know, the Magic song was

129
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,280
Speaker 3: interesting because that was this weird gateway drug to k

130
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,960
Speaker 3: Tel Records, and I got really into k Tel records, which,

131
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 3: for those of you who are too young to appreciate,

132
00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,280
Speaker 3: sort of worthy equivalent of the now, that's what they

133
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,960
Speaker 3: call music series or any sort of compilation of current hits.

134
00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,200
Speaker 3: But in the seventies, when I was this little kid,

135
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,320
Speaker 3: very tiny, they these k Tel records. They would mix

136
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 3: genres sometimes, so you'd have pop hits that would and

137
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 3: it would be solo songs, disco songs, rock songs on

138
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,640
Speaker 3: the same record. And that's how I first heard music,

139
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,760
Speaker 3: and that's still how I hear music. So I've never

140
00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,280
Speaker 3: really been genre specific. I always hear it as like

141
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 3: this weird amorphous just grouping of genres and sounds, you know,

142
00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,720
Speaker 3: And so that was it for me. I also became

143
00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,680
Speaker 3: a huge fan of the notion of a three minute song, right,

144
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,400
Speaker 3: and that's my attention span, which is why I don't

145
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,040
Speaker 3: make jam band records, you know what I mean. So

146
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,240
Speaker 3: I have we'll get to that, well, we'll get there,

147
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,240
Speaker 3: but yeah, I have three minutes of my disposal and

148
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 3: that's where my attention wear was off. So you know,

149
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 3: I was just exposed to so many different quote unquote

150
00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,040
Speaker 3: genre as at a young age, and I loved all of it.

151
00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 3: And I always envisioned songs dressed up in any any fashion.

152
00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 3: I never really so when I heard a disco record,

153
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,119
Speaker 3: it wasn't the notion of the four on the floor

154
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 3: and the sort of the pounding beat. It was just

155
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,600
Speaker 3: the song and the structure and stuff like that that

156
00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 3: I fell in love with. And I've taken that into

157
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 3: everything i've done since. It doesn't matter what the assignment

158
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 3: is or who I'm working with. I just strip all

159
00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,280
Speaker 3: the noise and anything extraneous about it, and I just

160
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,440
Speaker 3: take it primarly to what is the basic song in

161
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 3: the smallest shape, and let me figure out how to

162
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,400
Speaker 3: dress it up. And that comes from just being exposed

163
00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,240
Speaker 3: to tons and tons of genres very young.

164
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,520
Speaker 2: So your family is an interesting story, and we don't

165
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,880
Speaker 2: have to go too deep into it, but I'm very interested.

166
00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 3: They like me.

167
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 2: No, well, you're already ahead of the game. I'm interested

168
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,240
Speaker 2: in musical families. A lot of the families, or a

169
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:33,679
Speaker 2: lot of the people we talked to you in this

170
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,040
Speaker 2: line of work grew up in churches which we clearly

171
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,720
Speaker 2: did not, and or like come from families where music

172
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,839
Speaker 2: is a big thing. I know you quote your brother

173
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,840
Speaker 2: as like, you know, turning you on too music. I

174
00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 2: was just telling before about how my sister doesn't even

175
00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 2: listen to music. I know your parents were hippies and

176
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:49,640
Speaker 2: Da da da da, my preio.

177
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,440
Speaker 3: Like almost before hippies, they were rad man, they were

178
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,480
Speaker 3: a generation before that, but they were incredible artists.

179
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 2: But good yeah, sorry, And like my parents were doctors

180
00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 2: and my dad like smooth jazz. Mom likes Mandy Patinkin,

181
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,560
Speaker 2: which is also fitting, but moving on, it's.

182
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,320
Speaker 3: Also kind of awesome.

183
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,960
Speaker 2: It's also that part of it is great. I'm not

184
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,040
Speaker 2: gonna lie and yoyo ma, those are her two fixtures.

185
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 2: But talk to me about how your family and how

186
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 2: your brother's record collection I believe affected your overall.

187
00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I owe a lot of it to

188
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,320
Speaker 3: my brother. You know my brother, you know, when we

189
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,080
Speaker 3: grew up, he was listening to a lot of seventies stuff,

190
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:24,600
Speaker 3: and he was listening to a lot of Southern rock

191
00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,280
Speaker 3: and all this shit kicker kind of GARYA the Z

192
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,160
Speaker 3: twenty eight, And he used to cruise around listening to

193
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,840
Speaker 3: Mally Hatchet and stuff like that. And I was listening

194
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:34,679
Speaker 3: to tons of disco. So I was on the other

195
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 3: end of the coin. You know, I wasn't a kiss

196
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,800
Speaker 3: kid as much as I was a Beg's kid, So

197
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,640
Speaker 3: you know, I was bullied a lot. But what was

198
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 3: funny about my brother, though my brother went off to college,

199
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 3: he went to Boston University. In his first semester, he

200
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,640
Speaker 3: became friends, I believe, with the radio DJ who lived

201
00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,080
Speaker 3: on his floor at the you know, at the university station.

202
00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,719
Speaker 3: My brother came back with crates of vinyl crates, and

203
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,320
Speaker 3: it was all this early new wave, like the two

204
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 3: tone Sky stuff, chronic Town, I believe, murmur, so It's

205
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,920
Speaker 3: gonna be eighty three, murmur, all the Ram stuff, obviously,

206
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 3: the Smith stuff. Like he came back with just this

207
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 3: incredible knowledge of this music that didn't exist in the

208
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 3: suburbs where I was, you know, certainly not in sixth

209
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 3: grade or seventh grade. And when he came in and

210
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 3: I was exposed to it, my head fucking exploded. It

211
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,439
Speaker 3: was just this whole other It was like a revolution

212
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,640
Speaker 3: of sound because I, you know, I at that point,

213
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 3: I was listening to the Beatles, and I was listening

214
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,200
Speaker 3: to Who and a lot of disco, and then suddenly

215
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,720
Speaker 3: I'm exposed to this entire weird cultural clash of stuff.

216
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,440
Speaker 3: At the same time, hip hop was beginning to happen,

217
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,319
Speaker 3: and you know, I had friends who were really in

218
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,080
Speaker 3: a rapper's delight, and you know, we got into all

219
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,440
Speaker 3: the Sugar Hills stuff early on. So we would buy

220
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,319
Speaker 3: all those twelves who'd go to stores and just get

221
00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,880
Speaker 3: all the twelve inches anything that came out on you know,

222
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,080
Speaker 3: Sugar On Prelude or Tommy Boy or you know, Sleeping

223
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,800
Speaker 3: Bag and Fresh, and we would bring back all these records.

224
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,960
Speaker 3: So between the new wave and the hip hop stuff,

225
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,120
Speaker 3: you know, I began to really have a taste level

226
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,360
Speaker 3: for the first time in life where I was really like,

227
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:17,960
Speaker 3: I felt like I was early on stuff as opposed

228
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:19,439
Speaker 3: to just listening to classic rock and stuff. So I

229
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,040
Speaker 3: owed my brother immenseally for that. My mom was bad ass,

230
00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,199
Speaker 3: because my mom was like this jazz head, you know.

231
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 3: So my mom was mingus and all this cool stuff

232
00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,439
Speaker 3: and chick Corea and stuff like that. And then my

233
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,800
Speaker 3: dad was really into Brazilian stuff. There was a lot

234
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,559
Speaker 3: of stan Getz and with Jilberto. Jill asked Gilberto all

235
00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 3: that stuff, and I was exposed to tons of stuff.

236
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:46,960
Speaker 3: There's lots of sounds in our house. And me I

237
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,599
Speaker 3: had the mom who was listening to talking heads and

238
00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,840
Speaker 3: was listening to what was the record that she really

239
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,400
Speaker 3: she dug, It's gonna Hit Me Again, and it wasn't

240
00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 3: the water Boys, but it was one of these Scottish things,

241
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 3: and she was just really cool. And so it's funny

242
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,560
Speaker 3: because I think I was the least cool of anybody

243
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,200
Speaker 3: in my house, but everybody who's listening to really cool stuff,

244
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,880
Speaker 3: and I just, you know, I was, like I said,

245
00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,880
Speaker 3: I just absorbed anything around me, and I just was

246
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 3: trying to at all costs just sort of learn learn

247
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,040
Speaker 3: from all of it and combine it. And that was

248
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,719
Speaker 3: the most That's what I look back on growing up.

249
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 3: I remember, you know, I had two turntables, like two

250
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,560
Speaker 3: techniques at a Gemini mixer, and that was pretty terrible.

251
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 3: But I loved mixing genres, you know. So I took

252
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 3: the instrumental from Brass Monkey, you know, the Beastie Boys,

253
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,679
Speaker 3: and then I put the Bob o' riley arpeggiated scent

254
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,439
Speaker 3: behind her something like that. Like I'd mess around with

255
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,079
Speaker 3: different genres, different sounds, and then I learned about Rick

256
00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 3: Rubin from a Village Voice article. A Village Voice wrote

257
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,200
Speaker 3: this piece, He's the king of rock. There is no

258
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,280
Speaker 3: higher sucker. MC should call him sire or something like that.

259
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,600
Speaker 3: It was a Village Voice and it was my senior

260
00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 3: year in high school. And I'm like this colossal. I'm

261
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,439
Speaker 3: graduating the bottom of my grade. I'm djaying at parties,

262
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,280
Speaker 3: I'm singing in a band doing like hohoskerdo and and

263
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,120
Speaker 3: you know which is crazy? You know, do hooskier do covers?

264
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,400
Speaker 3: Just screaming into the mic. And I'm lost. I have

265
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 3: no idea who I am, but I know I'm a

266
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,079
Speaker 3: music kid, and I'm really trying to figure out. I'm

267
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 3: writing all this like weird beat poetry stuff. And I

268
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,559
Speaker 3: read the Rick Rubin article and it was about a

269
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,319
Speaker 3: suburban kid from Long Island who had gone into the

270
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,560
Speaker 3: Weinstein dorms at NYU and started a label and he

271
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 3: basically took what he knew from rock and he'd brought

272
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,720
Speaker 3: it into the dorm and hooked up with hip hopcats.

273
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 3: And I was doing the Tela rock stuff and I

274
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,320
Speaker 3: was so blown away by it. My head exploded because

275
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:41,959
Speaker 3: I thought, Wow, this is me. I'm one of these

276
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 3: multi genre quote unquote guys. I listened to everything, and

277
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 3: I sort of have an idea of why the hip

278
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 3: hop stuff, like why it's resonating at least with my

279
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,319
Speaker 3: friends and stuff. And at the same time, I'm a

280
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,640
Speaker 3: rock kid, So that's why that sort of was like

281
00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 3: that that lightning bolt, you know what I mean, Like

282
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,600
Speaker 3: that was the moment where I thought, wow, like there's

283
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,600
Speaker 3: a there's a precedent, and I didn't think I could.

284
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,880
Speaker 3: I don't really never want to be a producer to

285
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,800
Speaker 3: the other Rick Ruben variety. I really wanted to be

286
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 3: more of a top liner. I wan to write lyric

287
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 3: and melody, but just expose the notion that you could

288
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,600
Speaker 3: get into this from out of nowhere. I didn't understand it.

289
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 3: There was no manual, so I wrote a book. There

290
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 3: was no manual like coming up now you can watch

291
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,080
Speaker 3: you two tutorials on anything. But we grew up like

292
00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,080
Speaker 3: trying to become like a professional songwriter. There's nothing about that.

293
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,000
Speaker 3: You just had to sort of learn, you know, I

294
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,960
Speaker 3: mean Streets of Hills kitchen.

295
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,720
Speaker 2: But like, talk to me about your career and also

296
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 2: generally the way you talk about music is like in

297
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,440
Speaker 2: this totally genrealist thing. I feel like as a person

298
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,120
Speaker 2: who writes music too, I get pigeonholed into certain things

299
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 2: all the time. It's like, well, you're the sesame street guid, which,

300
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,760
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm not saying is a bad thing, but.

301
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 3: It's a very sexy call.

302
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 2: I mean, that's how I got you.

303
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:56,960
Speaker 3: I know, here we are.

304
00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 2: It worked, It did fu yeah anyway, but I I

305
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,000
Speaker 2: you know, or like, you work on a theater thing.

306
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 2: In my line of work, it's like you're the music

307
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 2: theater guy, and I feel like you don't live.

308
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 3: There or you have is it that it's intentional?

309
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 2: Right, but like, how have you done that? Well?

310
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:18,280
Speaker 3: Because I had the luxury when I came up, you know,

311
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 3: after attending three colleges and two semesters and crushed education.

312
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,920
Speaker 3: Obviously you can tell you tell so well. I'm a

313
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 3: soub verbally dextra. Just tell tell all the skills that

314
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,240
Speaker 3: I have. You know, when I when I moved to

315
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 3: the city, I was living in the in the East village,

316
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 3: and I started hanging out a bar called Nightingales, which

317
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,920
Speaker 3: is on twelfth and Second, and it was a place

318
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 3: you didn't need an ID And I started hanging out there.

319
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,880
Speaker 3: I was eighteen with my friend Jake Miller, who was

320
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 3: this incredible singer songwriter, had a band called Xenix twenty five.

321
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,240
Speaker 3: He passed away a long time ago. He's a beautiful soul.

322
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 3: And Jake and I started hanging out this bar and

323
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 3: there was the scene of like, you know, sort of

324
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 3: jam bandy, kind of crunchy, and I describe it, but

325
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,640
Speaker 3: like sort of greasy, sort of cool bands of the

326
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,480
Speaker 3: era that were beginning to pop out of there. There

327
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 3: was Blues Traveler, there was Spin Doctors, There's Maloz. And

328
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 3: I started hanging around this scene and although musically some

329
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 3: of it wasn't my thing, I began to notice how

330
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,240
Speaker 3: instantly the industry swooped in signed all the bands, and

331
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 3: then these bands were immediately pigeonholed into that thing. Right,

332
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 3: and Blues Traveler have gone on and had incredible careers

333
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,640
Speaker 3: and they're dear friends and they've transcended it. But I

334
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 3: think a lot of these bands got bunched into a scene.

335
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,040
Speaker 3: And I was twenty one, and I could tell that

336
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 3: they were already labeled. You know, I didn't listen to

337
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 3: hairband stuff in high school. You know, that was sort

338
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 3: of a. That was my big rebellion. I didn't listen

339
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 3: to hairbands, right, But what I realized about hairbands is,

340
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 3: you know, the hair band thing was a scene and

341
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,480
Speaker 3: it was probably the most magical time ever for a

342
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 3: lot of people. And then you know, grunge comes and

343
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 3: it's eradicated, and I think a lot of people who

344
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,240
Speaker 3: were connected to it had a hard time getting footing.

345
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 3: And that was always my biggest fear, is I love

346
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,159
Speaker 3: this so much. I just never wanted to get to

347
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 3: a point where I was. I was completely intertwined with

348
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,640
Speaker 3: a moment in time, and it was over hard to avoid.

349
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 3: But I've consciously always taken steps in the process to

350
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 3: go after things that are out of character, outside of

351
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,720
Speaker 3: the box in terms of what people think I can do.

352
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,159
Speaker 3: So I'm hard to label. You know, when Panic of

353
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 3: the Disco happened and High Hopes was this this massive

354
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,679
Speaker 3: world wide number one. The next record I took was

355
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,720
Speaker 3: the OJ's Farewell record.

356
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:49,760
Speaker 2: And really interesting to a lot of people.

357
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 3: Don't do that, and you know, but on purpose, I

358
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,360
Speaker 3: think it was very intentional.

359
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 2: Because you because you didn't want to. My guess is,

360
00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:58,760
Speaker 2: if we're going to go okay too, the High Hopes

361
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,120
Speaker 2: business is the minute you wrote High Hopes, ten different

362
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,800
Speaker 2: similar ish pop rock outfits called you or like, we

363
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,359
Speaker 2: want the next High Hopes and you said no, or

364
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,119
Speaker 2: you said I'm doing the OJ's record, which is a

365
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:10,840
Speaker 2: hilarious sense.

366
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,680
Speaker 3: Of well, I can be bought, Bill, Let's not lie.

367
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,240
Speaker 3: So I probably attempted versions of it. But what I

368
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,400
Speaker 3: would say is when you have a moment and you're

369
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 3: like in the songwriting zeitgeist for a second in time,

370
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,040
Speaker 3: and I've had waves where I've sort of been deeply

371
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 3: in the mix, in times where I'm an afterthought, the

372
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,679
Speaker 3: one thing I would say is it's just it's strategy.

373
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,560
Speaker 3: And I think a lot of writers are probably less

374
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,760
Speaker 3: strategic to some extent because maybe they're less calculated humans

375
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,680
Speaker 3: than I am. The probably better people. But what I'm

376
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 3: going for is I just I'm trying. I look at

377
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,080
Speaker 3: music as this entire sort of weird canvas that's in

378
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,239
Speaker 3: front of me, and I'm trying to paint corners of it,

379
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 3: and always I want to be able to look at

380
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 3: it and think I sort of I hit everything I

381
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 3: thought I was capable of. And you know what, I'm

382
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,240
Speaker 3: not gambling, huff, but man, I lived for those records

383
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 3: as a kid, and I studied them and I wanted

384
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,480
Speaker 3: one shot to do what I would do with the OJS,

385
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,399
Speaker 3: and I thought that was that would be to me,

386
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 3: that's cooler than working with any band that wanted, like,

387
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 3: you know, a assimily of what I've already done.

388
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,919
Speaker 2: Do you look at this like work? Does this feel like?

389
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,439
Speaker 2: Do you? Because people ask me this a lot, like

390
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 2: they think that I you know, we write songs for

391
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 2: people and kids and enjoyment, and it's creative and all

392
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 2: creative pursuits. I think to some people are sort of

393
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 2: just shrouded in like happy and enjoy it's all great

394
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,160
Speaker 2: and whatever, but like it's a fuck ton of work.

395
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 2: Do you how do you look like? I know, we've thought,

396
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,960
Speaker 2: we talked about this. It's puzzles to your routine, They're puzzles.

397
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 3: Everything is a puzzle and I'm trying to crack the

398
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,959
Speaker 3: code on a puzzle. And I have, like I do,

399
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,760
Speaker 3: treat it like sport, like a professional athlete in terms

400
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:48,640
Speaker 3: of their seasons. There's training and I'm I'm extremely thorough

401
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 3: and religiously like sort of dialed in when I'm in season,

402
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,199
Speaker 3: and it is work. It's my passion and it's the

403
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 3: only thing I probably am. I can function as a

404
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:07,120
Speaker 3: capable human doing. But it is work, and it is

405
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 3: an absolute mind fuck a lot of the time. And

406
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 3: you know, the business stuff I hate. I'm not business. Ye,

407
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 3: I don't have that wiring that would have if I

408
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 3: had continue to matriculated some university probably would have helped

409
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,159
Speaker 3: that cause. So I thankfully I'm surrounded by people are

410
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,439
Speaker 3: who are competent humans in a way that I'm not.

411
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 3: But just the puzzle of song is something that eats

412
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 3: at me twenty four hours a day and where I

413
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 3: write something and then I relive it in my dreams

414
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 3: and I constantly am reworking and trying to figure out

415
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 3: where the flaw is and it can you know, it

416
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 3: just beats me up, you know. And it's one of

417
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 3: these things where it's such a strange thing to articulate

418
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 3: because you know, people think, oh, how hard is that? Well,

419
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 3: you know what, it's a voice in your head all

420
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 3: day long where you feel like you're losing your shit,

421
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,639
Speaker 3: where it's just like I'm walking around just singing something

422
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,199
Speaker 3: over and over and over and nause even why is

423
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 3: this not working? And then eventually when it happens, then

424
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 3: it's no longer work, and it's just it's the greatest

425
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 3: feeling in the world.

426
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 2: Do you feel like this is what your ADHD and

427
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 2: your anxiety are actual benefits.

428
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: I mean the think about the ADHD is, you know

429
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 3: they always say, you know, it's it's you know, it's

430
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 3: your superpowers, your superpower. Yeah, well it wasn't in school,

431
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 3: so it definitely wasn't a superpower. My parents went to

432
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 3: ivy universities. I graduated the bottom of my high school

433
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 3: and did eighteen hours at the University of Pacific in Stockton, California.

434
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 3: No disrespect, go Tigers or whatever the mascot is.

435
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 2: Eighteen hours.

436
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 3: Eighteen hours. That's true. So you know what's interesting about

437
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,479
Speaker 3: in life? What I found about ADHD it's interesting is

438
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 3: I do have this strange ability to handle many micro

439
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 3: assignments at once in song and things like that, where

440
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 3: I can have like four or five records going at

441
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 3: once and I'm really laser focused on all of them,

442
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 3: which is wild and I and then if I just

443
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 3: have to focus on one, I lose my shit. It's harder.

444
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 3: It's like I'm better with more plates, like sort of

445
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 3: flying in my hands. So that's a toy even answer

446
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 3: the question.

447
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 2: Okay, so we talked about college. You went to four

448
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: different colleges, and you did really well at all of them,

449
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 2: as we can tell. I believe Temple was in there

450
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,479
Speaker 2: somewhere or something like that. Well, go al, good Philadelphia situation. Anyway,

451
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: So you leave college, you don't, will you? I passed

452
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 2: college on your way to great news.

453
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 3: I was. I was on a semester at sea.

454
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 2: Sure, oh, like one of those that's good, all right,

455
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: like a pirate. So you left college and you moved

456
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: to New York.

457
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,400
Speaker 3: I'm in New York City. The last school I attended

458
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 3: was NYU.

459
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 2: And following Rick Rubin, following.

460
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 3: Rick Rubin at n YU, and it wasn't what I expected.

461
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 3: And I delve in that in my best selling book,

462
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 3: I Want To Under Matt Holt ben Bella books available

463
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 3: at a local Barnes and Noble or any chain you have,

464
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 3: or on Amazon.

465
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 2: And I will say, I don't read books. It's the

466
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 2: first book I've read in ten years, and it was fantastic.

467
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 2: I read it in eight hours and I loved her

468
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 2: a minute of it.

469
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 3: People say that to me a lot. Bill People say

470
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 3: it was a very fast read. Now I don't know

471
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 3: how to.

472
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: Take that mean if they loved it.

473
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 3: I feel like, you know, I have a friend who's

474
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 3: a speed reader. She's actually really a speed reader, and

475
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 3: she's like, it's amazing. I thought, well, you spent six

476
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 3: minutes on it, what was your takeaway?

477
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 2: But is that a profession speed reading?

478
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 3: She's a speed reader like for life. No, but she's

479
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 3: like part of clubs like speed reading clubs.

480
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of weird friends.

481
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: Well I'm available, it's true.

482
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: But like you also, I was just going to get

483
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 2: to you later, but like, you know, fucking everyone. And

484
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,719
Speaker 2: that's one of my favorite things about you is that

485
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 2: everybody who I drop your name to, they're like, oh yeah, Sam,

486
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 2: he's the best. Like there's no everybody speaks not only

487
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: speaks very highly of you, but everybody knows who you are.

488
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 3: Well, such a quest love Casino showed it.

489
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 2: Well, Ques, but he also doesn't know who you are,

490
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 2: and you've worked with him, but he probably I wouldn't

491
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 2: remember that.

492
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: But that's and I'll hold it against them. I like people, man,

493
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 3: I like people. I also I like people. I'm probably

494
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 3: a pretty lonely guy, so I like being around people.

495
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 3: And I like to learn from people, and i'm I

496
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 3: like characters. I'm really into characters, and it doesn't matter

497
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 3: who that you know. There's no hierarchy in my brain.

498
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 3: I just sort of like people, and I'm I don't know.

499
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,719
Speaker 3: I'm much happier person when I'm out socializing than when

500
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 3: i'm by myself. By myself, I'm kind of dark. And

501
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 3: when I'm alone around like big groups of stuff, I

502
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 3: like holding court because I just love watching all the

503
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: interaction between people, and I like connecting people. Something I

504
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 3: learned from Jonathan Daniel again from Crush and who early

505
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 3: on was the first people who explained to me the

506
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 3: notion of being a connector in life, where you really

507
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 3: connect people and don't ask for anything, want anything, or

508
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 3: assume anything. Just connect people who I think might like

509
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 3: each other because it puts like a really good energy

510
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 3: out there and it will manifest in different ways and

511
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 3: always has.

512
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: This is also something I'm very good at, which I

513
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: think is why we're friends one.

514
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: By the way, look we have very similar wiring. We're

515
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 3: both very very attractive people in podcasts, so.

516
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: All the cameras are working very well good at this.

517
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 3: Moment, my light incredible right now, it's that shirt.

518
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 2: I can't that that shirt and the shirt the whole

519
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: color scheme is like so.

520
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: Well, while I'm doing it, this is a floral Paul

521
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: Smith number.

522
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 2: Why you gotta drop brand games now?

523
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 3: Underneath would be the homage Doc Ellis t shirt when

524
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 3: he did the LSD, when he did throw a no

525
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: hitter on LSD. Okay, it went with the matching nikes.

526
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: And there is a blue sock thing happening that was

527
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 3: not intention.

528
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 2: And you always wear a hat as if we're you

529
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: are a.

530
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 3: Stunted man child. Here's the thing. You know, I wear

531
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 3: lids and hoodies everywhere, which makes me very recognizable, and

532
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: there's five people who care. But the reason I do

533
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 3: is I don't really the shape of my head. And

534
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 3: also I've been doing it since I was a little boy.

535
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: It's funny. I related to Adam Sandler in so many ways.

536
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 3: Obviously very attractive Jewish men but with very Doe features.

537
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: But what I would say about Sandler is I still

538
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 3: I never grew up, and I you know, I look

539
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 3: at pictures of me in high school and I got

540
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: my dad's and there was there was, there was the

541
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 3: baseball half phase, and then there was like the I

542
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: went full ducky, yep, pretty and pink, so I was

543
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: like doing the pork pie. And then I went to

544
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 3: a fedora for a while.

545
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: There's a snow hat like there.

546
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: Was always like the snow hats. I always like the

547
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 3: snow hats. And what I realized is, I don't know.

548
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 3: I just I feel like I never want to lose

549
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: the youthful spirit. It's in my writing and it's how

550
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 3: I wake up every day. I still feel like a

551
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 3: little kid anything that is a constant reminder. When I

552
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 3: look in the mirror and I still feel like I'm sixteen,

553
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: I feel very free, and that's sort of who I am.

554
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: That's sort of the composite of my thing.

555
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: Here's a sidebar. How does that affect you as a parent?

556
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 3: Well, I mean I wouldn't want to be my kid.

557
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: I mean what does that mean?

558
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: Well, I mean when you go to parent teacher night

559
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 3: and you know, there's there's seventeen, you know, hedge fun

560
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 3: bro guys and suits in the back of the room,

561
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: and there's one very florally draped, sloppy guy with ill

562
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: fitting clothing.

563
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: Bank account reads tis motherfucker.

564
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: It's just it's just it's for a child. It's it's

565
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 3: probably a lot toun back. I have a feeling now

566
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 3: I'm hoping. I kind of feel like I'm nearing that

567
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 3: age where my kid is like, oh wait, he's not

568
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: that mortifying. But you know, for many years it wasn't easy.

569
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: In La was simple though. In La I was just

570
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 3: part of that thing then, But in Westchester it's a

571
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: little different.

572
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: There's a great there's a great line in your book

573
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 2: because it ranked he to me about you took the

574
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: Descendants gig. What does it total? We're skipping head made years,

575
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: but whatever, you took the Descendence gig, so you kid

576
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: would think you were cool. And I have to tell

577
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: you that all I do now shout out to Jake Cousin, Jake,

578
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: our producer who's about to have a kid. I was

579
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: explaining to him that his life is about to be

580
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: over because anything that he ever did for himself doesn't

581
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 2: matter anymore. All you're about to do is think to

582
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: your kids. So all I try to do and fuck

583
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: you for this, is to get a goddamn descendance gig.

584
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 2: Because all I listened to in the car is Camp

585
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: Rock Descendants High School musical the musical, the musical, the

586
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 2: musical and all.

587
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: And I had that moment, right did I did? So?

588
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 3: I had that moment. I remember I did this record

589
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: called Shake It with Metro Station. It was a really

590
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 3: really big song. And when that blew up, I was

591
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: connected with Steve Vincent at Disney and lovely guy. He's

592
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 3: been there forever, he's been, you know. He shepherds the

593
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 3: music on every property they have, starting with high school

594
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 3: musical on and he's a lovely guy. And I remember

595
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 3: sitting with him and I was basically begging to work

596
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 3: on camp Rock, you know, And I just watched it

597
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: last week and I don't know if you I don't

598
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: think he really got it. I couldn't. I don't know

599
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: if he understood where I was coming from. And I

600
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: was like, man, I just it would be a big

601
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: flex for my kid, she's three, I need something. And

602
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: what happened was through the years, I would take a

603
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: lot of these Disney gigs and it was awesome because

604
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 3: you're working with very sweet people. And the flip side was,

605
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 3: you know, it was so cool when like the Descendants

606
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: blew up and my kid and her friends are, you know,

607
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 3: watching these songs. You know, maybe they're reacting to that

608
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: in ways that they didn't react to boys like girls

609
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 3: or gym class heros or one of these other thinks

610
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 3: it was super cool. But obviously I'm pretty needy.

611
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: That isn't lost on either of us today and every

612
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,959
Speaker 2: day Jesus all right back in time, so pot we're

613
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: post NYU. And the reason I want to get into

614
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: this is because you after your NYU career, you started

615
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: to be your performer. Yet that didn't work well, I know,

616
00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: but I find that. But you look the part of

617
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: the comparisons and the contrast between like you write music,

618
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: people assume that you perform it versus you don't and

619
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: you just write it. And I feel like you dabbled

620
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: in all of it. And this was that early time,

621
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: right post your fake college career.

622
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to look. I wanted once again, there's

623
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: no manual. There's no manual, you know, and I'm in

624
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 3: and I'm in the city and hip hop is is exploding,

625
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 3: and I fall in love with all this Native Tongue

626
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: era stuff, right and it was it was Daylon tribe

627
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 3: really and the Jungle Brothers like those three were sort

628
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 3: of the pillars of what I got into off the

629
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: bat and then there's obviously all the black sheets and

630
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 3: roots and everything else that came along with it, you know,

631
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: but the early native tongue era that eighty nine ninety.

632
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 3: I became obsessed, and I knew that I wasn't verbally

633
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 3: dexterous in the same way you know.

634
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: It's texious word it is, sure it is, now, let's

635
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: go with it. Isn't dexterosa drug.

636
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 3: Whatever, dexidrin, dex dexadrine, dexterius.

637
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: Is that dexterius. No dexterous. You're the lyricist and be dexterous,

638
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: so it'd be dexterous, okay.

639
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 3: But I you know, I knew my way around words

640
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: and word play. I just didn't really it wasn't uh

641
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: innately and I'm seeing any way, shape or form. But

642
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 3: I thought it'd be kind of rad to take my jukebox,

643
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: which was full of, you know, some pretty out records.

644
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 3: And I was a you know, I was a record collector, man.

645
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 3: I was a flea market guy, just like all these

646
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 3: kids were. And I thought I had some pretty cool samples.

647
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: I tried to get people to wrap over. I couldn't

648
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: get anybody alive to work on my tracks. I start

649
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 3: making beats, you know, and so I decided to just

650
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: wrap over my own stuff, which basically met me screaming

651
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: over them because I didn't really know what I was doing.

652
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 3: So I sounded like this weird amalgamation of Doctor Dre

653
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 3: and Hell. But I uh I. The craziest shit happened

654
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: is I got a record deal. We had a group

655
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 3: Perfect and my friends Don and Jason Don Jason Lynn

656
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 3: two of my best friends, and we had this weird

657
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 3: little group and we got signed. We got signed on

658
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: the day we are big showcase for Select Records, and

659
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: Select was bad ass because Select had Chub Rock Utfo

660
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 3: the real Rock Sana I believe you know. It was

661
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 3: a very cool seminal hip hop label of that time.

662
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: And then they signed us, and that's what that ended

663
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: the label obviously. But what was funny about is the

664
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 3: day we auditioned for the label. As we're about to

665
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 3: audition and there's a TV at the lobby of Smash Studios,

666
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: which is the rehearsal place where we we auditioned for

667
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: the label, and they announced in real time that Magic

668
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 3: has HIV. And you know, I'm rethinking every single bad

669
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 3: decision of my life questionable move up to that point

670
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: and yeah, as we all are, and then we have

671
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 3: to get on a stage and perform and basically like

672
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 3: the Beastie Boys on Meth you know, perfect time. Somehow

673
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 3: we got a record deal. So we we got we

674
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: got a record deal. And it was the first of

675
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: many many mistakes in my career. Their track masters before

676
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: they blew up doing all the stuff for Bad Boy,

677
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 3: et cetera. They were red Het Lover Tone was signed

678
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: to Select as well, and those guys were they had

679
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 3: spoken and Fred wanted them to produce my record, and

680
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 3: I passed Bob Power, the great Bob Power, who on

681
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: this podcast.

682
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: He was perhaps our I think he was the first

683
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: or second person that win.

684
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so Bob Power right after this is when he

685
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 3: had already done that. The second day he did Daylea

686
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 3: Soul is Dead, and this is right around the time

687
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: he was doing Low End Theory. He produced one of

688
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 3: the songs, and my dumb they got me a record deal, sure,

689
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: and then I didn't use them. And then I didn't

690
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 3: use them because I had to make my own record

691
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 3: because I was that guy. I'm awful, and so I

692
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: decided I'm going to produce my own record. And what's amazing.

693
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: It was great because you know, I you know, I

694
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 3: had my first real check and I had the ability

695
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: to do this, and I felt like a really you know,

696
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 3: a twenty one year old adult. And what of course,

697
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 3: I make the worst album ever recorded, and I commit

698
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: more musical crimes. And God bless my two bandmates because

699
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: they're sitting in me watching me just crash this car

700
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: in real time, and they went along with it, and

701
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 3: they were so kind that they didn't, you know, restrain

702
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: me at any point and say, wow, this is mortifying.

703
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 3: But I made a record, you know, I had a video,

704
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 3: It came out. I was dropped by the time I

705
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 3: was twenty two. I will tell you a true story

706
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 3: that this a little adendum to my best selling book,

707
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: Twenty Minute Wonder. Oh title this book books Ben Bella Books.

708
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: But book. Yeah, it was a true story. I h

709
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 3: it's all true. Before a reefer was legal.

710
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: Okay, I work ages.

711
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 3: I was a puffer. Yeah, And I was at my

712
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 3: brother's apartment. He lived on twentieth and eighth, and he

713
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: let me. He used to let me just sit there

714
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 3: with my journals and write, you know, my poetry or

715
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 3: my rap or my songs, whatever I was writing. He

716
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: would let me sit out there. He would spin records.

717
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 3: He DJ's so he'd spin record and then I would

718
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: just sit stoned on his porch, staring at you know,

719
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 3: if Avenue. And it was it was really, it was

720
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 3: actually a wonderful time in my life. But on one

721
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 3: given day, I thought, well, you know what, I'm gonna

722
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: go buy some vinyl myself. I made that that that

723
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 3: pilgrimage from my brother's apartment across all the way uh

724
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 3: down down Grange av Over to sixth Down, through McDougal,

725
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 3: through Washington Square Park to Tower Records. Okay, it's important,

726
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 3: it's important for me, the ADHD. But I'm landing it.

727
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 3: You stick with me.

728
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: I know the exact record you're talking about. Okay, scored

729
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: the documentary.

730
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 3: Okay, that's that's look at you.

731
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a little flex there. And by the way,

732
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 2: that fund yourself. I love that documentary, thank you. It

733
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: was one of the I.

734
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 3: Look at you like a little differently right, thank you.

735
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 3: All right. So I make it to Washington Square Park

736
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 3: and I see like this weird sea of purple in

737
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 3: front of me, and nah, it was like ten thousand princess.

738
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 3: It was the n y U graduating class would have

739
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 3: been my graduating class if I hadn't dropped out of college,

740
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 3: And I can't believe i'd input it in. But you know,

741
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: I know Matt Holt wants to do the sequel with me.

742
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 3: We've already been obviously talking about it, but no true story.

743
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 3: So I actually waltzed by High out of my mind,

744
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: waltz by my college graduation of a school I dropped

745
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 3: out of.

746
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: And what would my class as.

747
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,479
Speaker 3: If anyone knew me? And I didn't really register their bill.

748
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: But I have no idea where that came from. But

749
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 3: you know, I will tell you one thing about that

750
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 3: Tower Records though pivotal for me in so many ways,

751
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: because you know, right up the block was the Whiz.

752
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: Two blocks up was the Whiz on Broadway right there,

753
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 3: and on Friday nights, i'side the Whiz, all the jeeps

754
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 3: would roll up and whatever the biggest hip hop and

755
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 3: specifically house tracks of eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety. They

756
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: would just sit outside and blare them. And sometimes everyone's

757
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 3: radio was on hot you know, on BLS or kiss

758
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 3: or whatever. And I'll never forget. That's where I first

759
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: heard Gypsy Woman by Crystal Waters, and I can still

760
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: see the entire two hundred kids in the streets singing

761
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 3: La da Dad, you know. And those are those moments

762
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 3: that were embedded in me where I realized music as

763
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 3: a culture was just some other shit and I, you know,

764
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 3: you don't get that in the suburbs at the same extent.

765
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 3: So that's when I fell in love with the city

766
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 3: and I just wanted to be around it. And that's

767
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: when I was going out every night of the week,

768
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: any showcase, anything I could get into, any if I

769
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 3: even in our unsuccessful hip hop amalgamation, when we would

770
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 3: do shows at a lot of these venues AKA and

771
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 3: underact me places like that, whenever we do a show,

772
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 3: if we ever met a junior A in our person

773
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 3: I was really big with like very junior A and

774
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 3: our people, you know, and interns. But you know what,

775
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: I was smart enough to realize that these people someday

776
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: would actually be running this thing, so I would I'd

777
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: befriend people who were my age and my level who

778
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 3: were just starting out as well, and a lot of

779
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 3: those people run things. Now. My first gig ever was

780
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 3: boxing Records at Big Beat Records was just this little

781
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 3: independent label and there are about seven or eight employees,

782
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 3: and there were two interns. It was me and Adrian Bartos,

783
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 3: who is Stretch Armstrong, but we were the two interns

784
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: in the back. And they are about seven or eight

785
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 3: of us. And it was run by Craig Callman, who

786
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: is the chairman of Atlantic. Now you know at that

787
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 3: point he was twenty three and I was probably nineteen.

788
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 3: So it's a good story.

789
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: You told a story. I'm gonna tell a story. Last night,

790
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 2: I went to see Stereophonic, which is.

791
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 3: The very tying to see it.

792
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 2: You have to see it. If you worked in music,

793
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 2: or you live in music, or you have anything to

794
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: do with music, you have to go see the show.

795
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: It could also be called like Fleetwood Mac making of

796
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: the rumors out, That's what I've fod, that's what I've heard.

797
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. It's like it's like

798
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: really involved, the music is amazing, blah blah blah. But

799
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 2: the take home is, in my opinion as a music person,

800
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: is this is it should be called why we need

801
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 2: producers because it's essentially like a bunch of people who

802
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: are like on many substances and have many relationships and

803
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: there's tons of dynamics, but no one can make a

804
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: decision and there's nobody overseeing it. And then the guy

805
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: who's the lead guitarist decides that he's the producer, and

806
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: we all know how well that goes. So my question

807
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: to you is, as I was watching this, I was

808
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 2: thinking about, God, I'm gonna ask fucking Sammis, is like,

809
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: talk to me about being a producer versus being a

810
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 2: songwriter and why you think being a because I feel

811
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: like in my life I've graduated from like a ranger

812
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: orchestrator whatever the nebulous title that is, to guy who

813
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 2: writes things from time to time. But then, like what

814
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: people know me as in the last few bits has

815
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 2: been like overseer of things, connector of things, which sounds

816
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: which I try to explain to my parents and they're like,

817
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: we don't know what the fuck that means, and I

818
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 2: was like, don't worry about but like I feel like,

819
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: talk to me about why producers are important and why

820
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: we need them and why you're one.

821
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 3: I just like that you used overseer Like that that's good.

822
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: You can use You can put that in your next

823
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 2: book entitled twenty two hit Wonders.

824
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 3: We're way beyond that. We're at least twenty two point five.

825
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 3: We can have half hits.

826
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, look here here's the thing.

827
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 3: I'm a pretty terrible producer overall. Wow, I can I

828
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 3: can answer that. You know, it's funny. My breakthrough cut

829
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 3: was a song with Jim class hero Is called cup

830
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 3: Its choke Hold. I produced it, okay, and when I

831
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 3: produced it, it opened up a tidal wave of opportunities.

832
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 3: So it was a number one hit. And then I

833
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 3: did I Pretty Shake It, I prettyce check Estuliet for

834
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: Wee the Kings. And these were like big, big songs,

835
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 3: and so I was the me and Dave Kats, who

836
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: I made them with, very important. I did the Wee

837
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 3: the Kings and the Metro Station with Dave Kats, and

838
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 3: when we did it, we were hot Rolling Stones Hot

839
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 3: List Producers of the Year two thousand and eight. I

840
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:53,919
Speaker 3: say that flex right now.

841
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: That was like a pretty gentleman.

842
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 3: You understand where there's is eating It's great is We

843
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 3: would start to work with artists who'd come in the

844
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 3: room to work with Rolling Stones Hotless producers and see

845
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 3: this guy and then they realized we had no idea

846
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 3: what we're doing. Now, Dave katzon knew more than I did,

847
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 3: But you know, we were we were prone to do

848
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 3: a lot of let's quad that anything. We just kept saying,

849
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 3: let's quad that, yeah, you know, and for for the uninformed,

850
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 3: that just sort of makes that's about four, right, four? Yeah,

851
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 3: just just quadruple that whatever the part was. But we

852
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 3: liked saying that from the back of the room to

853
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 3: our engineer, Hey, Sean, let's quad that, yep. And you know,

854
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 3: there are all these sad tropes that we were.

855
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 2: I double everything leads. I don't give a shit, I

856
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: double everything.

857
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 3: I just but you know what, I had no idea

858
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 3: what I was doing. And the reality was, I'm a

859
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: songwriter with a producer mentality, And what that means is,

860
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 3: I'm truly a writer who kind of understands the way

861
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: the movie should end and hears it sort of in

862
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 3: his head sonically, like this could be this, this could

863
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 3: be this, could be this. But the reality is, when

864
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 3: I go deep on something, if I'm really going deep

865
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,479
Speaker 3: on it, it's gonna suck.

866
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 2: Why cause.

867
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 3: Remember when Alex Rodriguez started doing steroids, right, you start

868
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: to befuck right, you start to get really big and

869
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 3: you're like, really like your numbers are going through the roof.

870
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 3: But the problem is you're gonna get busted. I was

871
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 3: the same guy. I feel like I put everything on

872
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 3: musical steroids, and I would send my tracks to mixers

873
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 3: like Tom Lord. Algae in Miami was mixing a ton

874
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 3: of my stuff back then, And there was always this,

875
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 3: you know, there were always these moments where I felt

876
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 3: like I'm about to get totally outed as the worst

877
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 3: producer in the world, and.

878
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: I feel like this every day.

879
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just like, you know, there's imposter syndrome and

880
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 3: there's just being a fucking impostor. And I was truly

881
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 3: an impostor with production, and I didn't really know what

882
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 3: I was doing. I do, you know, I do a

883
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 3: little programming, but I just felt like, honestly, like, I'm

884
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 3: a guy who's had a lot of joy playing around

885
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 3: with an SP twelve sampler SP twelve hundred and you know,

886
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: I'm at one point five seconds or whatever, and I

887
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 3: made like primitive beats and that's how I kind of

888
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 3: got started in this and that's probably the peak of

889
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 3: my creativity as a producer. Everything else, I can get

890
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 3: it done, and sometimes I can really hit something out

891
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 3: of the park and I think, wow, I'm really not

892
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 3: that bad. But I am wise enough not to believe

893
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 3: my own hype because there are eighteen year old kids

894
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 3: who are infinitely more sonically inclined. We're just more creative.

895
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 3: And when I'm in a room with somebody who I

896
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 3: deem a real producer, it's mortifying because they just they're

897
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 3: just so beyond me. And I've learned there's no ego

898
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: with this. As a writer, I'm pretty good. I stand

899
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 3: by my work and I think I'm unique.

900
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: But as a producer, best selling novels, best selling novelist,

901
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 2: it's number on Amazon. Okay, do they still have Z shops?

902
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: Is that I don't know what that is?

903
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 3: That's like the cutout bend for always looks at Amazon?

904
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 2: Or is it like at the strand, like it's in

905
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 2: the pile of like five dollars a nunder.

906
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 3: All my records started out still there. I'm very used

907
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 3: to having an idiot set record, so.

908
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: I want to talk about breaks. So we've never talked

909
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 2: about this because I didn't know until I read your book.

910
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: So when I was in my early twenties. I was

911
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: making musicals and doing whatever I was doing. And a

912
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: friend of mine, Chris Jackson, who later became George Washington

913
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: and Hamilton and all this other shit, he was working with,

914
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: who I didn't know at the time, McMurphy. And so, yeah,

915
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: so I read the book and I couldn't believe this

916
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 2: because so I'll let you talk about McMurphy, but let me.

917
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 3: Say what I say, pour some more whiskey to.

918
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 2: It, hashtag angels and begs. And so Chris, my friend Chris,

919
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: He's like, listen, I've been working on these music with

920
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: these guys, Dad, have you ever heard of the system

921
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: of McMurphy. And Frankly, as a Jewish kid from Long

922
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 2: Island who liked like Coltrane and Dave Matthews, I did

923
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 2: not know a lot about the system of McMurphy, full disclosure.

924
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: So I went and I'm sitting there with McMurphy, and

925
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: he he is the nicest guy in the world.

926
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: Sexy fella.

927
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 2: He is a very sexy fella, like not but like

928
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: not a person who's ever been in my life I

929
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 2: like ever not that like his personality and his son

930
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: and we like went to his house and he like

931
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 2: still worked in Acid remember that program it wasn't you know,

932
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 2: And like he played the guitar really well and he

933
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: was lefty and I was like, who the He's like

934
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 2: a cartoon And we collectively produced this guy, Chris Jackson's

935
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: album and at the time I didn't know and so

936
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 2: finally like this is crazy, So I googled him and

937
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: like and then like he would teach me. He would

938
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: just leak all kinds of things to me about how

939
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: to make music and how to write good songs, and

940
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: like he would his his shit was so sophisticated, but

941
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: you would never know. And I loved that about like

942
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: the the harmonic structures were so intense, and like the

943
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 2: way he played the guitar, like Babyface was like so involved,

944
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: but the songs were so simple and elegant, and it

945
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: was really one of the anyway you can speak this,

946
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 2: but like in your book Mick and his part David,

947
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: they gave you one of your early breaks. They give

948
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: you a space, right, they believed in you, and they

949
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: gave you some shit. I just thought that was that

950
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: was a weird moment for me reading in your book

951
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: that we both had that it's those guys.

952
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 3: So you know, I'm old as fuck. So you know,

953
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 3: if you wanted any opportunity in this business, you would

954
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 3: look at the back. You'd look at the back of records.

955
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 3: You'd see labels, producers, whoever. And then you'd go to

956
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 3: the phone book and you would try to find phone

957
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 3: numbers and you would cold call. And that's what I did,

958
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 3: and I cold called the Science Lab which was their

959
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 3: production company, and those guys were coming off don't disturb

960
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 3: this group which I danced to at my prom which

961
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 3: was kind of rad. I mean, and it's a year

962
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 3: later and I cold call and I just say, look,

963
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 3: I'm an artist, and you know I'd love to send

964
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 3: you a demo tape blah blah blah. And this lovely fellow,

965
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 3: Todd Allen working for them, and he answered the phone

966
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 3: and he invited me in, and you know, I think

967
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 3: they dug me and I sign me to a production deal.

968
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 3: And I was eighteen, and I mean, those guys were

969
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 3: so bad ass. I mean, you know, David was playing

970
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 3: on Shaka con records. They were I think they were

971
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 3: writing for Shaka. They did this record Attitude, a song

972
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 3: I think was called We Got the Juice, which was incredible.

973
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 3: They had really some crazy They had this incredible setup.

974
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 3: They were in the sixteen fifty Broadway and a floor

975
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 3: below was next Plateau Wrecks, next Plateau Records, which had

976
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 3: the beginning of Salt and Pepper, you know, and stuff

977
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: like that, and then the science lab in their room.

978
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 3: Little Louisvega was using their room, so all that early

979
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 3: house stuff was getting made at the end of the

980
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 3: hall as well. So I was able to absorb so

981
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 3: much badass shit. And I was eighteen, and they were

982
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 3: lovely guys. I ran into david a hotel in la

983
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 3: about four months ago, and look, I owe those guys

984
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 3: immenseally because they were the first people. You know, it's hard,

985
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 3: especially when you drop out of school and your parents

986
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 3: were like these, you know, massive intellectuals and very academic,

987
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 3: and you're trying to rationalize this decision. And if somebody

988
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 3: who actually who's succeeded and is a class act at

989
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 3: the level of those guys, you know, is able to,

990
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 3: you know, express interest in you and take you under

991
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 3: their wing, it buys you a little time with your parents.

992
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 3: And that's what it did. It brought me time, and

993
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 3: so I owe them momentally because even though once again

994
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 3: those guys, you know, there was only so much listening

995
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 3: I was going to do at that age, I was

996
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 3: still going to do my own thing. They just being

997
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 3: around and being in their orbit. I was privy to

998
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 3: some crazy stuff, you know. I remember drey Betts was

999
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: one of the cats in the in their circle, working

1000
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 3: out of the spot, and he was doing that what's

1001
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: to justify my love? That's when he did justify my love?

1002
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 3: So I remember hearing that very early. That was pretty cool.

1003
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 3: What was so great about no Internet and no access

1004
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: is you kind of stumbled into shit And that was

1005
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: the New York that I miss, you know, I miss

1006
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 3: the wide eyed excitement of stumbling and stumbling in the rooms.

1007
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 3: I remember, you know, my friend Jake Miller, who I

1008
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 3: just gos, who passed away a long time ago. Jake

1009
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: and his band they're called Zanix twenty five, and they

1010
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,959
Speaker 3: were doing sort of like a Progmeday kind of thing,

1011
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 3: and they were living on a loft on Second Avenue,

1012
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 3: and through Steph Skimarta, who is Warren Haynes's wife, who

1013
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,439
Speaker 3: was doing a and RT Forth and Broadway, they meet

1014
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 3: the Jungle Brothers and next thing. You know, the Jungle

1015
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 3: Brothers are making this progressive, weird psychedelic rock sort of

1016
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 3: hip hop record in this loft with these guys, and

1017
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 3: you know, I'm the biggest Jungle Brothers fan in the world, man,

1018
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 3: and I'm like allowed to hang out every once in

1019
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 3: a while and just watch my friends like throw down

1020
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 3: with these guys making this really cool progressive shit that

1021
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 3: never saw the light of day. It was neat. It

1022
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 3: was just every day was it was just like this

1023
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 3: weird New York was like this one big reveal. Right,

1024
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 3: you just like walk through a door and if you

1025
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: were socially inclined and you were not, you know, I

1026
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 3: was fearless, man. I walk up to anybody and if

1027
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 3: you still do that, yeah, I mean, well you know

1028
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 3: now they run.

1029
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 2: But then I was.

1030
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 3: Young and it was a little less creepy feeling.

1031
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: We interviewed Chris Rock like years ago and he said

1032
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: the best thing. He's like, yeah, I know, I'm a

1033
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 2: comic and I do these things. He's like, but you know,

1034
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: my best quality is and we're like what he said,

1035
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 2: I I show up and I essentially I show up

1036
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 2: and I don't get kicked out. So I'm always there,

1037
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: and I feel like a lot of the anecdotes in

1038
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: your book are like I was just there. There's like

1039
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 2: some bitch about like Cusack, and like you were part

1040
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: of this like weird rat packing New York situation where

1041
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 2: it was like you and him and whoever the fuck

1042
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: else was and some screenwriter and you're doing all this stuff,

1043
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: and I just feel like you, you're around, You're always,

1044
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: and there's some pictures of you in that book where

1045
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 2: you're just like in the background, fucking just sam just there,

1046
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: like the songwriting aside, I was just there.

1047
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 3: I was like the ultimate hanger on, you know.

1048
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 2: But that's my thing too, Like seemed to be around, dude.

1049
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 3: I can close my eyes and it's you know, it's Thanksgiving,

1050
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: probably ninety three, and John Cusack is doing Thanksgiving with

1051
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 3: me and my grandmother and my mom and dad and

1052
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 3: my brother. I'm his wife on the Upper East Side.

1053
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 3: And then John and I go out afterwards and meet

1054
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 3: up with Jeremy Piven and Uma Thurmat.

1055
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1056
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 3: So it's me, John Cusack, Jeremy Piven, and Uma Thurman

1057
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 3: and we're all standing on the stairs of the met

1058
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 3: and it's pouring rain and we're sort of dancing together

1059
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 3: and I'm self aware enough to know one of us

1060
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 3: doesn't belong in this, you know, And I just it

1061
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 3: was amazing because it really lit a match in me.

1062
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 3: And that's why I look, I'm forever indebted to those

1063
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 3: guys because they they saw something in me. You know.

1064
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 3: Maybe I didn't ask for anything, which was a nice skill.

1065
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 3: I definitely I wasn't a taker, which is good. But

1066
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 3: they let me hang around and just being sort of

1067
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 3: tangentially involved in all their sort of happenings and after

1068
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,479
Speaker 3: hour stuff. What was cool is, man, I just got

1069
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 3: to see how great it is to sort of to

1070
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 3: have access and to achieve whatever pinnacle. Like. They were

1071
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 3: all very successful at that time, and it lit a

1072
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 3: match like, man, if I had a measured level success,

1073
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 3: I won't feel like an outsider in every room. I

1074
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 3: will feel like maybe I belong one step more. I

1075
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,760
Speaker 3: didn't want to be a plus one my whole life,

1076
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 3: and I think that really fueled, like that sent me

1077
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 3: into orbit creatively because I thought, you know, if I'm

1078
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 3: able to achieve something and it resonates on any creative scale,

1079
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 3: if I'm not a plus one anymore, and I'm actually

1080
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 3: part of the group, and I've you know, I've earned

1081
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 3: my way where you think, oh, this guy just isn't

1082
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: another one of the hangarounds. Do you know? I told

1083
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 3: Piven not to do entourage?

1084
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 2: Really, but why is that not in the book I did?

1085
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 2: That's a good line. Had that conversation.

1086
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 3: Me and my wife and Jeremy went to uh Fred

1087
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 3: Siegel for dinner with twenty something years ago whatever it is.

1088
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: He told us about this thing he'd been offered. I

1089
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 3: was like, I don't know. It sounds kind of whack man.

1090
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm not an agent, trust me. You

1091
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 3: know you don't want me wrapping you in anything.

1092
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 2: It feels like Lynn invited me to Hamilton off Broadway

1093
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: and he goes, what'd you think? I was like, I

1094
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 2: don't know that, like my grandmother from like Long Island

1095
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 2: and just get it awesome and I stuck to that.

1096
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 3: You nailed that.

1097
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really I feel like I'm a really really

1098
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 2: good sets for six Jesus. So I feel like this

1099
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 2: is a good spring where it's like, yes the cusacknith

1100
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 2: that's a word. So we get into two thousand and

1101
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: I feel like two thousand until today is like or

1102
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 2: maybe a few years ago is like Sam Holland or Heyday.

1103
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is like between two

1104
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,080
Speaker 2: thousand and twenty twenty. This is the time we're talking

1105
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 2: of you as rock producer of the Year and big

1106
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 2: Dick of the West and all the shit that you

1107
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 2: accomplished in those particular years. But like, what was the

1108
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: first song that led off two thousands, that led that

1109
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 2: that opened the door? I know, there's there's a Clive

1110
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:16,479
Speaker 2: Davis kind, there's a skipping stone.

1111
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 3: That's a lot of things. I mean, the one thing

1112
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, there are like three

1113
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 3: or four little ten pole things that happened. But the

1114
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 3: first is Carol King because I connected with Carol King

1115
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 3: in two thousand and you know, we begin writing songs together.

1116
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 2: And I'm explain how that happened because it's a really.

1117
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 3: Good story, well you know.

1118
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 2: I and also not one that anyone would ever put

1119
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: on you, even in that shirt.

1120
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 3: Okay, wow strong. So what what I realized in my

1121
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 3: twenties is there are no doors open for me. I

1122
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 3: failed as an artist, and I started making beats and

1123
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 3: hawking beats around and nothing's working. I meet a guy

1124
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 3: named Joe Ricatelli who was awesome who ended up being

1125
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 3: the president of RCA, but before that he was a

1126
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 3: running promotion in Island and I met him through my

1127
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 3: friend Kimberly, and he gets me and my partner at

1128
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 3: the time was a guy named dougdan Angelis. He gets

1129
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 3: his remixes and I start building up remixes, remixes, and

1130
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 3: then it continues solo and with Dave Scholmer and different configurations.

1131
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 3: I'm doing remixes of def jam catalog stuff. He gets

1132
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 3: me in the mix and I'll tell you, these remixes

1133
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 3: are god awful and no one's ever heard them, but

1134
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 3: they were always the b sides to like a club promo,

1135
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 3: So he cared enough about me to always throw my

1136
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 3: things on. So I had a Suddenly my discography, which

1137
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 3: had nothing, had method Man DMX, the Thong Song, like

1138
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 3: all these pivotal records of that time, I had, like

1139
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 3: the techno remix. Now, no one alive was listening for

1140
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 3: the techno remix on these things, but suddenly I had credits,

1141
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 3: which was rad my only access to getting bigger stuff.

1142
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 3: I realized was going to be creating my own groups

1143
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 3: because there was no future in techno remixes and for

1144
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 3: me because I'm terrible, but also because there are probably

1145
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 3: people who are amazing at it. I just wasn't one

1146
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 3: of them. You know, if your Crystal method, you're like, hey,

1147
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 3: fuck you, Sam Holland. But you know I'm not Crystal Method.

1148
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 3: So I realized I got to put groups together because

1149
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 3: the one thing I realized as a student of the

1150
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 3: game is somewhere between you know, the Malcolm McLaren's and

1151
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,720
Speaker 3: the stock Apeman Waterman's and a lot of these British cats.

1152
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 3: You know, if people aren't going to record your own songs,

1153
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 3: then you better find your own groups to sing them.

1154
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 3: And so I would take out ads in the Village Voice,

1155
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 3: and I started casting for groups to like cut my stuff,

1156
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 3: and I find people, take them off for coffee and

1157
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 3: just say, hey, I'll write. I have a studio. You

1158
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 3: know it's a little dump, but like you know, I'll

1159
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,359
Speaker 3: write a song. Whatever we can collaborate and you know,

1160
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 3: I'll figure it out. And what happened was I got

1161
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 3: a bunch of people signed over a very quick amount

1162
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 3: of time. There was a there was a there was

1163
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 3: a a news source for music Hits Daily Double, which

1164
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 3: still exist, but they had something called a rumor mill

1165
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 3: and if you were in that, your phone ring off

1166
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 3: the hook. Somehow a guy named Joe Fleischer got wind

1167
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 3: of my stuff and he started touting me and my

1168
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 3: partner as like the next guys. And it was right

1169
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 3: when he had just blown up the Neptunes too, so

1170
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 3: we're like going to be the next guys, not the Neptunes,

1171
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 3: you know. And we start getting all these calls from labels,

1172
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 3: and I'm developing all these acts at the same time,

1173
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 3: and over like a two year period, I want to say,

1174
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 3: we got five or six act signed a major labels.

1175
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 3: The first was a woman named Tarsha Vega, and I

1176
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 3: believe she was an assistant in the CBS television accounting

1177
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 3: department or something like that. And she came in and

1178
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 3: she had never rapped and never sung, but perfect yeah,

1179
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 3: but you know, her personality was so great. She was

1180
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 3: super cool looking and she was just a great vibe

1181
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 3: and she was down for me just writing stuff. And

1182
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 3: I started writing these songs with my man, Dave Schomer,

1183
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 3: and we were he was doing the tracks and I

1184
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 3: was writing the lyrics and the melodies. And what happened

1185
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 3: was RCAA Records heard it. They signed her as my

1186
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 3: first act signed to like a major. I'd had a

1187
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 3: a singer name Sabrina Sang signed a Tommy Boy that

1188
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 3: didn't happen, so I'm over one. Then RCA signed Star Shavega,

1189
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 3: massive deal, all this press, and I'm once again producing

1190
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 3: a record. I mean no idea what I'm doing. And

1191
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 3: I make another terrible record and that's on me. But

1192
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 3: what's funny about it is it's time for a cameo

1193
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 3: on the record and we're looking for a cool feature.

1194
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 3: And my wife had just seen Blood Brothers on Broadway

1195
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 3: and she said Carol King is amazing and Blood Brothers

1196
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 3: and the label was thinking more along the lines of

1197
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 3: India Ri or something like that, and I was like,

1198
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 3: how about Carol King? And everyone looks at me stoneface.

1199
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 3: But Brian Maloof, who was an R on the project,

1200
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 3: had a relationship with Carol's manager, Lorna, who's very lovely,

1201
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 3: and Carol next to you know, within a week, is

1202
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 3: down at our state do you And she sits down

1203
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 3: across from me and Tarshah the artist, and she's going

1204
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 3: on and on about what's going on lyrically and the stuff,

1205
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 3: and she really digs it and to to shout out Tarsha,

1206
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 3: who is this wonderful person. Tarsia just looks and says, well,

1207
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 3: he writes the lyrics, and that's him, you know he

1208
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 3: I don't write the lyrics. And Carol looks at me

1209
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 3: like very puzzled and don't thinking what's up? This is

1210
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 3: mau kisso New York in the flesh. That's how we

1211
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 3: do represent. So immediately, me, Dave and Carol start writing

1212
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 3: together a lot, and we write a bunch of tunes

1213
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 3: just because she likes her lyrics. Yeah, I think she's

1214
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 3: just like the both of us. But I also think

1215
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 3: she liked the fact that, like you know, it was,

1216
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 3: music was changing and we were pulling lots of influences.

1217
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 3: But also we're super respectful of her catalog. We were knowledgeable.

1218
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 3: We knew like I could talk jazz man with her

1219
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 3: and other stuff. And she came in the room with

1220
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 3: us and three or four songs and we wrote Love

1221
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 3: Makes the World and that ended up being the title

1222
00:59:57,880 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 3: track and the single from the last album She Ever

1223
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 3: May and that was, you know, twenty four years ago.

1224
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 3: And that was a really cool calling card because through

1225
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 3: that she introduced us to Paul Williams. Who really became

1226
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 3: like a big brother figure to me. Throughout my entire career,

1227
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 3: I connected with Al Rodgers, you know, and I just

1228
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 3: started I felt personal. I was getting lots of respect

1229
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 3: from the old guard. I just still couldn't permeate anybody

1230
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 3: my own age. And that's when I knew I had

1231
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 3: to go even deeper into developing acts. And that's when

1232
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 3: Jonathan Daniel steps in, because we're watching what Crush Management's

1233
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 3: doing at the time, and they have all these cool

1234
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 3: young bands and they're bringing me in and I'm beginning

1235
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 3: to collaborate with them. And while we created Boys Like

1236
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,959
Speaker 3: Girls and we found we the Kings and Metro Station,

1237
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 3: these things also created a Cobra Starship with Crush Me

1238
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 3: and Dave katz Day. We created Cobra Starship with those guys. Yeah,

1239
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 3: we did not do that one, but we did do

1240
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 3: Snakes on the Plane, which is the greatest song ever,

1241
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 3: the greatest song ever. But we did that whole first album,

1242
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 3: and you know, we just we had this incredible symbiotic

1243
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 3: relationship all of us. We shared this loft, and you know,

1244
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 3: we would just develop acts, and you know, once an

1245
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 3: act was successful, they would take the next one on

1246
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 3: the road with them as direct support, and we were

1247
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 3: working outside of the industry machine, which was awesome, and

1248
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 3: that's what sort of that was what sort of elevated

1249
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 3: my moment. I just, you know it just at thirty four,

1250
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 3: I'm making beats on kids bop records and think and

1251
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 3: thirty five I have like a number one hit, So anything,

1252
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 3: it all shifted at that age. And that's really why

1253
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 3: I wrote the book bill, to be honest with you,

1254
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 3: because you know, at the end of the day, go

1255
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 3: fuck myself, thank you very much. At the end of

1256
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 3: the day, I think what's interesting about my story is

1257
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 3: the futility in the previous fourteen years was at a

1258
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,479
Speaker 3: level that most people will never fathom. And I thought,

1259
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 3: you know, I'm so sick of reading you know, people's

1260
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 3: tomes where they gloss over all this shit where it's

1261
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 3: literally like one hundred pages of the struggle fifty pages

1262
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 3: and then it's like victory lap, victory Lap, victory Lap.

1263
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 3: And what I wanted people to understand is the torture

1264
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 3: never ends, and I've never gotten to a place of comfort.

1265
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 3: It's like, I might be fiscally sound at this point,

1266
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 3: but I'll tell you something. I still get my ass

1267
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 3: kicked every single day creatively where I deliver something and

1268
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 3: it gets shredded or stepped on or tossed. And that's

1269
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 3: what I want people to understand is it is the

1270
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 3: greatest life in the world. I think you and I

1271
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 3: share this affinity for it, like we've been able to

1272
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 3: do things that we knit where we never dreamed were possible.

1273
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 3: And the flip side is we still get spit on

1274
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 3: every day we wake up. I tell my kid as

1275
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 3: she has, you know, as she dabbles with her interest

1276
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 3: in this, I said, look, it's a kin to get

1277
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 3: stepping outside on Broadway every morning getting hit by a

1278
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 3: cab and then yeah, and then you know, dusting yourself

1279
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 3: off and going off and writing a song because that's

1280
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 3: what it's like, because that's what my inbox looks like

1281
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 3: in the morning. It's like one like disaster after another.

1282
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 3: And then I just I do it again, and do

1283
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 3: it again, and do it again, and hope that the

1284
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 3: time it works in my favor.

1285
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 2: I was impressed, given I'd also work in this line

1286
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 2: of work that like the so many lows, Sam and

1287
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 2: so many highs, there seems it seems to be like

1288
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 2: you're always searching for some sort of middle, and there's

1289
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 2: and what you just said just says this is there

1290
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: is no middle. There's no middle, right, It's either like

1291
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 2: you've reached pieces of shit or you're number one smash

1292
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 2: hit right, And it's always it's always that.

1293
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 3: Well, it's also you know, I'm thankfully them at an age.

1294
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 3: Now I'm twenty eight, and I've.

1295
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 2: Aged like a twenty seven year old, just Benjamin Buden.

1296
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 3: But what's interesting at this age is I have enough

1297
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 3: perspective to look back on it and understand the waves, right,

1298
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 3: And I really, you know, I can sort of almost

1299
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 3: on a pie chart in my head. I sort of

1300
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 3: understand where the highs were, where the dips were. So

1301
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 3: I'm not it's hard to fluster me at this point

1302
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 3: because I'm ready. I'm ready for rejection, you know what

1303
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,439
Speaker 3: I mean. It's okay, and I understand that I'll still

1304
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 3: have another moment. I'll always have another moment, and I'm

1305
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 3: always going to have another disaster. And as long as

1306
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 3: I can wake up knowing that, then nothing sort of

1307
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 3: irks me.

1308
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 2: You mentioned Paul Williams and the great Paul Williams and

1309
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: the greatest, the greatest and there's a section in your

1310
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 2: book which I find very funny, sort of like the

1311
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 2: composers I wish I could have been, or wish I

1312
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 2: could be, or the ones I respect the most, or

1313
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. And there's who's he?

1314
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 2: What's it from? Abba maybe or whatever? But my favor

1315
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 2: one which we've never discussed, is Joe Riposo and so,

1316
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 2: and I thought long and hard about this as I

1317
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 2: read it, and people ask me about him all the time,

1318
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 2: and what it's like living in that shadow, and it's

1319
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 2: a lot, and I think it's a weird. I think

1320
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 2: when someone's the first to do something and do it

1321
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 2: unbelievably well, and you're someone who like takes over that

1322
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 2: thing or like tries to carry that torch, it's a

1323
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 2: lot of pressure. And in the beginning I thought like this,

1324
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 2: and then I mean, over time, just like I'm just

1325
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 2: trying to do the best job I possibly can and

1326
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 2: I'm here for a reason and blah blah blah. Anyway,

1327
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 2: and the thing you mentioned about how how Sesme Street

1328
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 2: was major in your in like your songwriting and your

1329
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 2: childhood and everything else.

1330
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 3: And simplicity Fender Rhodes, but.

1331
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 2: It was, but it was so complex, And that's my

1332
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 2: favorite thing about Sesme Street is people are like, it's

1333
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 2: songs for children, But if you look at that stuff,

1334
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 2: it is not simple at all, and it's really ridiculous.

1335
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,680
Speaker 3: Particularly he was a freak, but I just love the repetition.

1336
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:34,439
Speaker 3: There were just ideas that even as a young sort

1337
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 3: of barely formed musical brain, you know, I did he

1338
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 3: did the three s Company theme.

1339
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of like under the hood

1340
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 2: and stuff about it.

1341
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 3: But he was also Sinatra's favorite, right, Sinatra's favorite writer.

1342
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 3: It's like, I've always loved people who who are in

1343
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 3: on the joke. And that's how I look at it,

1344
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 3: Like we're all in on the joke. It's like it's music.

1345
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 3: It's the goal of what we're doing is we're trying

1346
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 3: to sort of make people feel something illicit emotions. And

1347
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 3: when I listen to Reposo stuff, you think, oh, yeah,

1348
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 3: it's it's Sesame straight and you know it's it's it's

1349
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 3: it's this these warm, sort of tender little moments. You know.

1350
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 3: Won't to come at him, you know, but at the

1351
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 3: core of it is just the badass like man, what

1352
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 3: you know, put on those songs you know, and you

1353
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 3: get chills. It's like they're they're so broad and he

1354
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 3: was able to write really broad stuff for a genre

1355
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 3: that I think previously wasn't at that level of sophistication.

1356
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 3: And to me, he's one of those like he's one

1357
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 3: of those pillars. As a kid when I heard his stuff,

1358
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 3: and it's crazy because you know, in Cape Cod we

1359
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 3: spend a lot of time in Chatham in the summer.

1360
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 3: And it's about twenty years come. I am having a

1361
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 3: cup of coffee. I'm sitting on a bench outside the

1362
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 3: library and I turn around and it says this bench

1363
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 3: is dedicated to Joe Roposo who lived his life here.

1364
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah blah blah, you know, and I had

1365
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 3: chills because it was the only bench. You know, I

1366
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 3: just I had coffee. Probably who sits on a bench

1367
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 3: in front a library doing But it's like, you know,

1368
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 3: it's like it's like it was just like this place

1369
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:21,040
Speaker 3: that I used to go and sit, you know, I

1370
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 3: had like a routine, and I never looked at the

1371
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 3: little placard. It's like this small little placard and I

1372
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 3: was so moved by that. I thought, well, this is

1373
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 3: this is divine and you know, he set the bar

1374
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 3: for that genre. But I just love the ones. What

1375
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 3: I love about it. What I mean by the joke is,

1376
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:38,959
Speaker 3: here's this guy. He's doing Sesame Street at the same

1377
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 3: time he's writing Three's Company and he's writing songs for Sinatra.

1378
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 3: He understands that's all music. And this is what I would,

1379
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 3: you know, taking it back to square from one. It's

1380
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 3: all genre lists, right, He's just writing exactly what he felt.

1381
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 3: You know what's weird is sometimes I listen to my voice.

1382
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 3: I sound like Joe Biden. It's a really right feeling.

1383
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 2: It's like a weird drink.

1384
01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 3: It's a weird feeling. We're just like, fuck, man, I'm

1385
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 3: a little monotone today. What is going on? I'm sorry?

1386
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 3: All right.

1387
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 2: So we're Carol King's post two thousand. Right in the

1388
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 2: early two thousands, we get the Carol King. Carol King

1389
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 2: becomes the calling card of the thing.

1390
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 3: What happens next, well, you know, I start doing these

1391
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 3: fun little bands, and a lot of hits happen. And

1392
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 3: what happens is once again, because I knew that all

1393
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 3: scenes eventually die or more for something as these uh

1394
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 3: as we're making these pop punk or emo records and

1395
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 3: they're becoming big pop hits. I begin to realize there's

1396
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 3: a shelf life because we're we're repeating ourselves a lot,

1397
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 3: like a lot. I'm writing a lot of songs lyrically

1398
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 3: with escapism themes and us against the world, you know,

1399
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:45,439
Speaker 3: like this is like I to we yes, Yeah, yeah,

1400
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 3: there's a lot of a lot of a lot of

1401
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 3: Paul Williams tricks, et cetera. Then I'm just applying to

1402
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 3: this and I realized that I'm beginning to phone songs in.

1403
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 3: And I got to this point where I was like,

1404
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 3: you know, I can phone in a B plus a

1405
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 3: minus every time out. I know what that is. I

1406
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 3: know how to get it there. And songs were going

1407
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 3: from first singles like getting first single on everything to

1408
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 3: getting like the third single on things, you know, and

1409
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 3: songs weren't working the same way, and the talent level

1410
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 3: started to shift a little bit where starting to work

1411
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 3: with some kids who interested me less. You know, that

1412
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 3: first wave of these scene kids that we worked with,

1413
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 3: you know, the kids and you know and boys like

1414
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 3: Girls and Wee the Kings, Jim Classros, Trivy McCoy. You know,

1415
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 3: these kids were awesome. They were like little stars, you know,

1416
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 3: and I started to see kids feel less like stars

1417
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:36,720
Speaker 3: to me. There's still some ones that popped, but there

1418
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 3: were kids that just felt like they were at the end,

1419
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:43,720
Speaker 3: dying end of a scene. And that's when I immediately

1420
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 3: made the conscious decision to jump into what they call

1421
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 3: hot ac or whatever, but like just sort of like,

1422
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 3: you know, the equivalent of soft rock. But what happened

1423
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 3: was I would stay at La Park. Suits in La

1424
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:58,599
Speaker 3: always stay at the same hotel. And when I stayed

1425
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:00,720
Speaker 3: at this hotel, they would blast the stuff on the roof.

1426
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 3: It was always Matchbox twenty or Dave Matthews or you know,

1427
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:08,559
Speaker 3: Uncle Cracker, Train, Sugar Ray, all this stuff.

1428
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 2: And what I'll really you then went on to work with, Yeah,

1429
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 2: what was weird.

1430
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 3: About it was? It was funny about it was I'm

1431
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:14,799
Speaker 3: sitting up there and I'm realizing that they're not playing

1432
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 3: my music. My music isn't I think I'm you know,

1433
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:21,720
Speaker 3: in the Zeichist at the second and these are hits,

1434
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 3: but they I don't know if they're going to be recurrent.

1435
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 3: I don't know if these songs are going to live on.

1436
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 3: And I got into music with the notion of sure

1437
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 3: I just want to write one hit, but I wanted

1438
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 3: to write a hit that lived on.

1439
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 2: It's legacy important to you, because it's another question I

1440
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 2: get asked all the time as the Sesame Street guy.

1441
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 2: It's like, like, you do you do you think about

1442
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 2: your legacy? Is that a thing that comes up to you?

1443
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 2: Because it doesn't. It's it's I do not. I'm not.

1444
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 2: Maybe I haven't reached the age or the gravity toss

1445
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:49,080
Speaker 2: of my life. I don't think about that.

1446
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 3: Oh I'm psychotic. I think about every day.

1447
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 2: I know, but you're you fine, but you're not psychotic

1448
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 2: in like a psychonic way. You're a psychonic and I'm

1449
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 2: in my head kind of way, and there's anything wrong

1450
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 2: with that. I'm also ninety five, so there are one

1451
01:10:58,479 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 2: hundred years old.

1452
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 3: So but you look, it's a lot of people say

1453
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,599
Speaker 3: that where you know, Here's what I think about legacy.

1454
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 3: I've been doing it so long and I've put so

1455
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 3: so much work into this, and I like to I

1456
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:12,680
Speaker 3: would love to look back. I love people to look

1457
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 3: back and think, Wow, this guy brought some joy. You know,

1458
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 3: that's it.

1459
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 2: That's already happened.

1460
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 3: But that's it. But it's but that's what the legacy

1461
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 3: is like I hope that people someday can connect the

1462
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 3: dots and go and think, wow, the guy wrote some

1463
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 3: really uplifting ship or some stuff that made me feel something,

1464
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 3: and and there was a lot of it. There's a

1465
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 3: body of work, and it's a body of work. I

1466
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 3: know if it's a legacy, but I do take my

1467
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 3: body of work seriously. And you know, I've also committed

1468
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 3: many musical crimes, so you know they're worth mentioning as well.

1469
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 3: I've made some records that you know what you know,

1470
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 3: what's I love? You know, there's things I love about

1471
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:50,160
Speaker 3: Spotify right, but Spotify with their playlist when they're written

1472
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 3: by playlist, like each one of them does one, right,

1473
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 3: Amazon does one, Apple does one and Spotify. What sucks

1474
01:11:56,400 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 3: about Spotify's is it's just every song you've ever done.

1475
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 3: They don't curate it. So just when they sent it

1476
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 3: to me, I was honored. I'm like, wow, I get

1477
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,280
Speaker 3: like a written by page. But it's four hundred.

1478
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 2: Songs and not all of them are great.

1479
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 3: Not all were great. I mean there are some things

1480
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:13,479
Speaker 3: in there there there there is one song written with

1481
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,680
Speaker 3: some Canadian kid who were to name nameless, where I

1482
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 3: turned that thing on. I was like, holy fuck, I

1483
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,639
Speaker 3: wrote the worst song ever written. Yeah, and I don't

1484
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:23,280
Speaker 3: know what the protocol is. If I can just take like,

1485
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 3: you know, pull it into Alan Smithy, you know, and

1486
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:28,640
Speaker 3: take my name off it it yeah, just you know

1487
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 3: it never has it just a pseudonym very late in.

1488
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 2: Life, but primes committed by all.

1489
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 3: Right, but he was a train train. So then I

1490
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:38,720
Speaker 3: started writing with let's get it, come on, you're you're

1491
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 3: you're you're really taking.

1492
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 2: Us off course I do, but like I find I was,

1493
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:42,840
Speaker 2: I have more.

1494
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 3: Okay, but here's the thing, my train. So I hook

1495
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 3: up a.

1496
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 2: Train and ask about train but find out talk about

1497
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 2: train drops. Jupiter.

1498
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 3: Let's want to I want I didn't write that, But

1499
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 3: what happens is all these bands.

1500
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 2: Let me let's talk about quest leaft. Yeah, let's just

1501
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:57,720
Speaker 2: talk about questions the whole time. He'll be happy. What

1502
01:12:57,760 --> 01:12:59,439
Speaker 2: if he just strolled in right now? What a moment

1503
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 2: that Okay, here is this imposter nice shirt? Yes, so

1504
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 2: he will rocks some floral shit. I sat next to

1505
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:11,679
Speaker 2: him at the moth Galla last year. All right, moth Galla,

1506
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:13,840
Speaker 2: did you tell a story? Fuck you? First of all,

1507
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 2: By the way, I did once, Oh my God with

1508
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 2: Jeff Garland. Oh you want to go deep? You want

1509
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:20,120
Speaker 2: to go deep? Go ahead, you got No.

1510
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, like, honestly, if they didn't ask me

1511
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 3: to speak in the moth gallup, they just they just

1512
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 3: let me sit there. But Questlove is a very good

1513
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 3: looking man, and you know he gets a lot of attention.

1514
01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:33,679
Speaker 3: He's like a table one guy. Sure, I'm Table nine, but.

1515
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 2: Like, do you always find it funny when you meet

1516
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 2: somebody who you think is a table who should be

1517
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 2: a table one guy, but they're not cool, and you're

1518
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 2: just like, what what happened to you?

1519
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 3: That's the same thing as when you meet me and

1520
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 3: they think, no, no, did you end up at Table nine?

1521
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 2: Thinks you're cool, Like there's no expectation with him, there's

1522
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 2: like an expectation that you're going to be cool and

1523
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:54,600
Speaker 2: then you are not him. But with some people and

1524
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 2: you meet and you're just like, oh, that's bummer, that's

1525
01:13:57,200 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 2: not what I thought.

1526
01:13:58,080 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 3: I find most people cooler than.

1527
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 2: Me percent but you're pretty cool. Moving on, so we're

1528
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 2: post trained, but before we in the train, I feel

1529
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:09,000
Speaker 2: like there's minutia of songwriting that I want to get

1530
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 2: into I love all your accolades. Read the book. He

1531
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,519
Speaker 2: talks about all the accolades you chuck, shut up. We

1532
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 2: talk about songwriting all the time. In fact, we write

1533
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 2: songs together, you and me Sam all the time now.

1534
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 2: So having been in a bunch of like writers composer rooms. Yeah,

1535
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 2: And so there's a section in your book about Max

1536
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 2: Martin and the whole synchronicity of Swedish pop and how

1537
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:29,960
Speaker 2: that shit works. And it's another thing that I have

1538
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 2: a lot of, uh that I do, and and the

1539
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:37,479
Speaker 2: way that they work and how that happens is a thing, right,

1540
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 2: and and so there's a lot there's interesting things in

1541
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 2: your book. And we have talked about this at late

1542
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 2: about like Swedish well that but like songwriters, therapist song like.

1543
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:50,639
Speaker 2: So in my early days when I let's talk about

1544
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 2: me for a second, in my early days, when I

1545
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 2: had a publishing deal, they were like, go to this thing,

1546
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 2: sit in a room with someone you've never listened, you

1547
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 2: don't know anything about, and write a song about car

1548
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,439
Speaker 2: washes or whatever the fucking was. And I remember going

1549
01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 2: and I was so young and naive, and they had

1550
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 2: paid me five thousand dollars and like taking my whole

1551
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 2: life's earnings, and I was like, cool, I needed I

1552
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:12,000
Speaker 2: couldn't pay rent, so great, take that for a year whatever.

1553
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 2: And I remember feeling so uncomfortable and being like this

1554
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 2: is not what I do, This is not I need

1555
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 2: like alone time, and I can't deal with it, and dada,

1556
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:22,599
Speaker 2: so smash cut. Two years later when I stopped doing

1557
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,200
Speaker 2: like the writing sessions, and then I was just like

1558
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:27,799
Speaker 2: producing records or making things. And I find this idea

1559
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 2: go back to stereophonic from last night, Like the producer

1560
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:36,639
Speaker 2: as therapist or psychologist is like I feel like eighty

1561
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 2: percent of the gig man like dealing with the crazy

1562
01:15:39,520 --> 01:15:41,880
Speaker 2: and then and then also like having the ability to

1563
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 2: tell so and so the lead singer like actually no,

1564
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 2: like it should be this or like whatever. And there's

1565
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,439
Speaker 2: also there's a bonus cut in your thing that says,

1566
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:54,080
Speaker 2: like some of the effect of whether you like it

1567
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:55,639
Speaker 2: or not, the lead singer's always the person that makes

1568
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 2: the decision of the bit right whatever your person that

1569
01:15:57,439 --> 01:15:59,599
Speaker 2: is right, which is which is one hundred percent correct,

1570
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 2: Like the bass players not saying shit. The bass players

1571
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 2: in the back like thumping out roots and like loving

1572
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 2: his life and like who cares and he gets laid

1573
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,160
Speaker 2: the most. Always the bass player, but like the lead

1574
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 2: singer is always the guy that makes whether he knows

1575
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 2: what he's talking about or not, that's the guy, right.

1576
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 3: Well, writers, one thing I'll say, aspiring writers, if you're

1577
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:18,719
Speaker 3: out there, if you're aspiring songwriter, if you are able

1578
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:21,640
Speaker 3: to permeate this beast of an industry and you get

1579
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:24,720
Speaker 3: a publishing deal and they say to you, hey, you

1580
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:27,640
Speaker 3: know what, we have so and so banned and we

1581
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,920
Speaker 3: want you to write with the drummer. You don't do it.

1582
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 2: You just just veto it right away that day and

1583
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 2: they're not going to happen.

1584
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:38,679
Speaker 3: And I have friends who still fall for it, which

1585
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 3: is the craziest thing. People my age you still fall

1586
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 3: for are like, oh my god, it's the drummer from

1587
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. You know, I think I can get

1588
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 3: on the record. No, you can't.

1589
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 2: Nor do you want to look at the credits?

1590
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 3: You know, look who you know who has the keys

1591
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 3: to a project? Yes? To answer what you're saying, you know.

1592
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 2: Like, how do you approach those things? What do you

1593
01:16:57,880 --> 01:16:58,559
Speaker 2: have a different mind?

1594
01:16:58,600 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's a speed dating. It's a

1595
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:03,200
Speaker 3: date it's a speed dating. I did it for so

1596
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 3: many years, and you know, I do it less now

1597
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 3: just because I'm probably burned out of the process. But

1598
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 3: for many years I would do two hundred speed dates

1599
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:12,880
Speaker 3: a year where I would get in a room with

1600
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 3: some configuration of people and it's thirty five minutes of

1601
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,800
Speaker 3: small talking and trying to bond and you know, sort

1602
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:22,639
Speaker 3: of forge your relationship. And then we have to get

1603
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 3: deep and really like expose some nerves and really figure

1604
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:27,960
Speaker 3: out who we are in the room. And it's interesting

1605
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 3: because when you're writing with their artists. Some days you're

1606
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 3: writing with artists who are incredibly lyrical, which sort of

1607
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 3: falls into my domain. So then I have to shape

1608
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:37,840
Speaker 3: shift immediately in the room because I do not want

1609
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,960
Speaker 3: to suppress their thing, and I know I'm smart enough

1610
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 3: not to suppress it. But the flip side is I

1611
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:45,599
Speaker 3: got to figure out how I exist in the room,

1612
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:48,120
Speaker 3: because if I'm just the editor, I don't really feel

1613
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 3: that like I've earned my keep. So it's constantly. The

1614
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:54,760
Speaker 3: adaptability is huge in a room. You know, you have

1615
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,080
Speaker 3: to be able to do a lot of different skills

1616
01:17:57,120 --> 01:18:00,479
Speaker 3: based on you know, the artists that you're working with

1617
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,280
Speaker 3: and many times. Most times the A and R person

1618
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 3: or the publisher whatever won't give you any exposition on

1619
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:08,679
Speaker 3: the person because they don't really know what their creative

1620
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:10,919
Speaker 3: process is. So you can get a room with somebody

1621
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 3: and you think, wow, they write really poetic stuff and

1622
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 3: realize that they don't have any verbal dexterity at all.

1623
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:20,679
Speaker 3: They have nothing, and so you then have to become

1624
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:24,439
Speaker 3: that person instantly. Other days, you know you're writing with

1625
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:26,680
Speaker 3: an artist who you believe is incredibly lyrical and they're

1626
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 3: the best melodic writer you've ever seen, but maybe they

1627
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 3: don't do the things. And in other days they say, oh,

1628
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 3: they don't really have a lot to say, and you're

1629
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 3: sitting with somebody and they write the most profound shit.

1630
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:37,800
Speaker 3: I wrote a song with a sixteen year old kid

1631
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 3: from London named James t w and a great writer

1632
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:44,439
Speaker 3: named Nolan Sipe. It's about nine years ago. We wrote

1633
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 3: the song called what You Loved Someone, and it was

1634
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:52,639
Speaker 3: written from the perspective of parents coming home and telling

1635
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:56,720
Speaker 3: their child that they were getting divorced, and it's sort

1636
01:18:56,760 --> 01:19:00,760
Speaker 3: of all the fallout from that. This is not a

1637
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:05,240
Speaker 3: fun song. I would tell you it's probably the best

1638
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 3: song I've ever written. Really yeah, and it's a huge song,

1639
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:12,600
Speaker 3: like globally huge song, seven hundred million streams. I'm like,

1640
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:14,840
Speaker 3: that's a big tune. But what's interesting about it is

1641
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 3: Nolan and I, who are both pros with a lot

1642
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 3: of hits, we didn't come up with that topic. The

1643
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 3: sixteen year old did.

1644
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 2: Really, he guided it.

1645
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 3: We just like then wrote the song, but it was

1646
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,760
Speaker 3: his vision and he really guided it, and you know,

1647
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 3: and his melodies were beautiful and he had some really

1648
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 3: great lines, and also he's a great guitarist. But there

1649
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:36,360
Speaker 3: was no exposition with that. No one ever said to me, Hey,

1650
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:37,599
Speaker 3: when you get in the room with the sixteen year

1651
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:39,560
Speaker 3: old kid, he's gonna write the most profound shit of

1652
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 3: your career. It's like, you don't know. And so the

1653
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 3: number one skill as a songwriter and an aspiring writer

1654
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 3: at any level is to read a room. And reading

1655
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 3: a room is priceless, and if you don't have that ability,

1656
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 3: it's going to be hard to be a collaborator because

1657
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:00,560
Speaker 3: you have to know when at the foot on the

1658
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 3: gas and you have to know when to slam on

1659
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 3: the brakes and just get out of the way, and

1660
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:07,519
Speaker 3: it changes every single day. So That's what I'm saying.

1661
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:08,880
Speaker 3: You never get to a place of comfort with it

1662
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 3: because if you are going with the same, if you're

1663
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:13,839
Speaker 3: going if you're treating it with some sort of repetition

1664
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 3: every single day, doing the same routine, it won't work.

1665
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:19,120
Speaker 3: You're dealing with different especially and you're on a treadmill

1666
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 3: of sessions. And then the biggest mind fuck of all

1667
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 3: is that you can write something that you believe is

1668
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 3: absolutely game changing, but you still have that awful voice

1669
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,000
Speaker 3: in the back of your head that says, tomorrow, this

1670
01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 3: person's writing with a whole new configuration, and they're younger,

1671
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:39,759
Speaker 3: and they're hot, and they are, you know, having their moment,

1672
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:42,559
Speaker 3: and he's going to fall in love with that grouping

1673
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 3: because they're cooler, and they'll end up getting maybe the

1674
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:48,920
Speaker 3: single or the cut that even though you really feel

1675
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:50,840
Speaker 3: like you wrote the most powerful shit ever, it just

1676
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:52,040
Speaker 3: messes with your head all day long.

1677
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:01,160
Speaker 2: You're like a lyric first guy always, And I know

1678
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:03,759
Speaker 2: for a fact that guys like Max Martin are melody

1679
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:09,080
Speaker 2: first guys. So but like both of you have written

1680
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 2: hits and for totally different reasons. He's written more, sure,

1681
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 2: he has, and he's written a ton and he would

1682
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:16,679
Speaker 2: if he was here, he would have something.

1683
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:18,720
Speaker 3: To say about this. But whatever, Well he's better than me.

1684
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 2: No, God, why this is not a competition. It is

1685
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:23,360
Speaker 2: a competition. It is a fucking competition.

1686
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:25,599
Speaker 3: He's Max Martin, but like, but.

1687
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:27,479
Speaker 2: Like with Max, he always talking about Melly, right, So

1688
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 2: it's Mellody, million, Mellion, Melly, and I feel like his

1689
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 2: disciples are melliy million Melldy. And you live in more

1690
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 2: of like the this is shitt example Bob Dylan lyrical world.

1691
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 2: And I think that that's so interesting because at the

1692
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 2: end of the day, a fucking hit is a hit.

1693
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 2: So like you've written a hit, he's written hit. I've

1694
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:45,200
Speaker 2: been on the same charts in different places. But like,

1695
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 2: why is it that?

1696
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 3: Because like, why is it that his songs are bigger?

1697
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:55,720
Speaker 3: Because because he's better, because he's why let's start there. No,

1698
01:21:55,800 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 3: but what I would say is one thing I would

1699
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:57,559
Speaker 3: say is.

1700
01:21:57,439 --> 01:21:59,080
Speaker 2: But how can you have that different approach and still

1701
01:21:59,080 --> 01:21:59,679
Speaker 2: have the same outcome?

1702
01:21:59,720 --> 01:22:02,680
Speaker 3: I guess, well, melody is king, right, So I've been

1703
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:08,559
Speaker 3: with you, it's not with me. But I think maybe

1704
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 3: I'm lucky because truthfully, at this point, melody supersedes everything.

1705
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 3: The one thing that helps me lyrically is I'm pretty conceptual,

1706
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:21,519
Speaker 3: So songs like you know a check Yes, Juliet, or

1707
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:23,519
Speaker 3: one of these things that sneaks through one of these

1708
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:26,400
Speaker 3: like quirky hand clap, handclaps, A pretty quirky little tune,

1709
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:28,759
Speaker 3: you know, might be the biggest song in my career

1710
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:31,559
Speaker 3: might be And it's a it's a quirky little number,

1711
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 3: and it didn't come from a melodic place. It came

1712
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 3: from a lyrical place. I mean that was based on like,

1713
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:39,680
Speaker 3: you know, that's a there's a real shape to what

1714
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:41,599
Speaker 3: I wrote there, and there was a reason for it.

1715
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 3: And then fits really stepped in and with that, you know,

1716
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:49,479
Speaker 3: the crazy blown out horn sample thing. And when we

1717
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:52,719
Speaker 3: wrote that thing, it was obvious that it was very unique.

1718
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:55,360
Speaker 3: But that's a that's that's the kind of record that

1719
01:22:55,439 --> 01:22:58,320
Speaker 3: I love because it's it's kind of a morphous I

1720
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:01,000
Speaker 3: don't really know what hand clap is. It's not really alternative,

1721
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:02,800
Speaker 3: it's not really pop, I don't know what is. It's

1722
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:06,280
Speaker 3: kind of weird. And those are my favorite tunes. The

1723
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:08,519
Speaker 3: quirky ones are the things that I really react to

1724
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:11,640
Speaker 3: because they're a little bit off, because that's where no

1725
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:14,519
Speaker 3: one can fuck with me. Like, if I'm trying to

1726
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:19,519
Speaker 3: write something that's hyper melodic, there's like an entire country

1727
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 3: of Sweden that can outright me.

1728
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:23,040
Speaker 2: So it's not a big country.

1729
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:28,800
Speaker 3: I just so I know that lyric and concept is

1730
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:30,360
Speaker 3: going to be the place that I can enter the

1731
01:23:30,360 --> 01:23:34,320
Speaker 3: building first and then you know, just sort of piece

1732
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:36,520
Speaker 3: it together to the best of my ability. But that's

1733
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 3: my that's my greatest skill, you know. But you're right

1734
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:41,080
Speaker 3: in terms of we all can end up in the

1735
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:44,679
Speaker 3: same place. But what's interesting is a guy like Max

1736
01:23:44,880 --> 01:23:48,760
Speaker 3: and some of these writers who are so blessed melodically,

1737
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:51,679
Speaker 3: they can kind of hit it every time out because

1738
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 3: they just hear things that other people don't hear. For me,

1739
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:56,799
Speaker 3: it's a little harder because I have to these concepts

1740
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:58,600
Speaker 3: have to be really unique to me and really and

1741
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:01,000
Speaker 3: they have to sort of hit beat that I feel

1742
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:05,200
Speaker 3: like are just so uniquely me that maybe it'll raise

1743
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:06,200
Speaker 3: its hand. Yeah.

1744
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:08,680
Speaker 2: So we've been talking for a long time and we

1745
01:24:08,720 --> 01:24:11,599
Speaker 2: can stop at any time. But I have two more

1746
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:15,120
Speaker 2: questions that I think are important ominaries. I'm a sagittari.

1747
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:20,120
Speaker 3: Okay, so is my wife? See sort of explains it all.

1748
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:24,479
Speaker 2: It's all coming very cleared out, all right, So I

1749
01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:25,080
Speaker 2: have two questions.

1750
01:24:25,080 --> 01:24:25,360
Speaker 3: All right.

1751
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 2: My first question is because people ask me this, like

1752
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 2: do you know when you have a hit? I know

1753
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 2: that's like such a generic question, but I feel like

1754
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,880
Speaker 2: it's important because I do. Sometimes you're like, in my

1755
01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:38,080
Speaker 2: so's I'll talk about me for a second. Sometimes I

1756
01:24:38,120 --> 01:24:40,280
Speaker 2: feel like I fucking killed it, and then I'll send

1757
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:41,760
Speaker 2: it to whoever sent it and they're like, this is

1758
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 2: the worst. Sometimes I'll write what I believe is the

1759
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:45,640
Speaker 2: biggest piece of shit of all time and they'll be like,

1760
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:48,040
Speaker 2: it's fucking genius, and I don't and and I've been

1761
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:50,200
Speaker 2: doing this for not as long as you have, but

1762
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 2: long enough, and I still don't know, And like, to me,

1763
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 2: that's a little bit of the excitement that I still

1764
01:24:57,160 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 2: can't fucking figure this out. After thirty years, twenty five

1765
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:02,640
Speaker 2: years of doing this, I still can't figure out. I

1766
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:04,320
Speaker 2: should be able to fit, but I still can't.

1767
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:06,600
Speaker 3: I definitely know, you know, one hundred percent.

1768
01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:08,960
Speaker 2: Okay, because I asked Max the same question and he

1769
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:11,200
Speaker 2: we were talking about how great he is. He's like,

1770
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 2: everything to him is super subjective. So it's always just

1771
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:15,439
Speaker 2: like I don't know. It's how I felt that day,

1772
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 2: like why'd you write this? No? No, how I felt that

1773
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:20,240
Speaker 2: day like there's no I think. I think there's an

1774
01:25:20,280 --> 01:25:22,439
Speaker 2: idea that there's like a math and a science to it,

1775
01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 2: and I think some of it is. But I think

1776
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:26,599
Speaker 2: a lot of it, more so than you would think,

1777
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 2: is super subjective, where it's just like can I say something, yes, sorry,

1778
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 2: I'm talking a lot. Fuck that guy all high and

1779
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 2: low here quest Love Supreme starring Bill had said this

1780
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:42,760
Speaker 2: is what this is What I would say.

1781
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,280
Speaker 3: Is I get the you know, I get a galvanic

1782
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:49,040
Speaker 3: response sort of it happens. There's certain songs where I

1783
01:25:49,160 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 3: just instantly the chills start.

1784
01:25:51,200 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 2: Like handclap. Did you know one hundred percent? You did

1785
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:56,559
Speaker 2: one hundred percent? Of course you said those songs are

1786
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:58,600
Speaker 2: fucking awesome, you dick? All right?

1787
01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:03,400
Speaker 3: You know Someone to You by Banners a song that

1788
01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 3: nobody really heard. We heard, Steve Day and our guy heard.

1789
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 3: I don't even know if if Mike the artist heard,

1790
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 3: but I was convinced that Someone to You by Banners

1791
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:18,559
Speaker 3: the second it left the room. I was like, man,

1792
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 3: I just think I wrote a perfect song, like as

1793
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:23,640
Speaker 3: good as I can get I believed everything about the

1794
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:26,960
Speaker 3: song would work. Everything was stacked against this song. It

1795
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 3: took five and a half years for it to break.

1796
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:31,840
Speaker 3: It'll be at a billion streams in a year. It's

1797
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:34,479
Speaker 3: a big song. And the truth is I knew it

1798
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,680
Speaker 3: the second this kid left the room. And this is

1799
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 3: like a young artist who you know, was at the

1800
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 3: stage in his career where I don't know if he

1801
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 3: could sell out of Starbucks yet, but I knew the

1802
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:45,760
Speaker 3: song was perfect. And they're just all you need to

1803
01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:50,280
Speaker 3: There's certain songs, you know. You know I knew check, yes, Julia,

1804
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 3: it was going to be huge. I know there's just

1805
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:55,720
Speaker 3: certain ones along the way. You know, I could pinpoint

1806
01:26:56,200 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 3: you know that. I definitely wait for Superman by Docot

1807
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:02,800
Speaker 3: would be a big song. They're just songs where we

1808
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:04,240
Speaker 3: leave the room and I think, wow, this is a

1809
01:27:04,280 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 3: big this just works. I can see it sort of.

1810
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:08,200
Speaker 2: And was it like a chill thing because that happens

1811
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:09,400
Speaker 2: to me from time to time where it's like you

1812
01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:12,559
Speaker 2: hear something you're like, oh, I can't not trust my body.

1813
01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:13,719
Speaker 2: Having a completely out.

1814
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:16,240
Speaker 3: Of band cloud, high Hopes, Check Ustruliat, all three of them.

1815
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:18,520
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, I believe that absolutely.

1816
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:20,439
Speaker 3: And also the Banner song, and also that James c.

1817
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 3: W ballad. I left there and I thought to myself, Okay,

1818
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:25,719
Speaker 3: when you love someone, it's like a mid tempo e ballad.

1819
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:28,760
Speaker 3: It doesn't really have a pulse and it's not a

1820
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 3: rhythmic record. I have no idea who's going to play

1821
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:33,559
Speaker 3: this thing. And it's the best song I've ever written.

1822
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:37,240
Speaker 3: It's gonna get heard, and it did. And people find things.

1823
01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 3: Sometimes people find things that are pretty good. Doesn't happen

1824
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 3: a lot now there's so much content out there. It's harder.

1825
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:46,479
Speaker 3: But sometimes if something actually you know, and trust me,

1826
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:48,680
Speaker 3: everything I do isn't that good, But every once in

1827
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:50,760
Speaker 3: a while one of them is. And I like to

1828
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,639
Speaker 3: believe there are very few that I think people really

1829
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 3: slept on, do you know what I mean. I don't

1830
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:57,439
Speaker 3: look back. I don't have that catalog full of songs

1831
01:27:57,439 --> 01:27:59,800
Speaker 3: where I think, oh, this should have been, should have

1832
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 3: been if they if they weren't hits, it's usually a

1833
01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 3: reason they weren't.

1834
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:06,040
Speaker 2: Is there one song you wish you had written?

1835
01:28:06,840 --> 01:28:07,719
Speaker 3: Changes daily?

1836
01:28:09,240 --> 01:28:10,719
Speaker 2: I love that's your answer.

1837
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:15,240
Speaker 3: It really changes daily. I think the you know, I think,

1838
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:19,519
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, best of my Love

1839
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:22,559
Speaker 3: by the Emotions is a song. I think that's the

1840
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,600
Speaker 3: to me, that's the most perfect record I can think of.

1841
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:28,679
Speaker 3: Or September by earth Wind and Fire, both of those

1842
01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:30,800
Speaker 3: Alley willis earth Wind and Fire. One thing about both

1843
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:36,720
Speaker 3: of those songs, is it Morey's white? Is they got

1844
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:39,240
Speaker 3: feel good? Right? I like feel good records. I like

1845
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:43,160
Speaker 3: music that's uplifting and feels good. You know, I've only

1846
01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 3: had two ballads work in my entire life. When labels

1847
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 3: call and say, oh, this just needs a ballad for

1848
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 3: this record, I tell them to call somebody else because

1849
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:55,040
Speaker 3: I'm not that good. I like feel good, and I

1850
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:58,559
Speaker 3: do it because it probably I'm creating natural dopamine for

1851
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 3: all my low's. I want to make music that balance

1852
01:29:01,479 --> 01:29:03,479
Speaker 3: is how dark I can get.

1853
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:05,840
Speaker 2: It turns out yeah, pretty dark.

1854
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:09,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's like that. That's how I that's what

1855
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:11,840
Speaker 3: I need to get to to keep my sanity. And

1856
01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:16,360
Speaker 3: so records, those those classics that do that thing are

1857
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:19,120
Speaker 3: so beyond my capability, and I do my versions of

1858
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:21,760
Speaker 3: them and they're never on one hundredth is good and

1859
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:23,559
Speaker 3: just that those are the records. So basically I want

1860
01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:25,120
Speaker 3: to be more white. I think I've just learned.

1861
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:31,599
Speaker 2: I mean could be worse. All right, sorry, Uh Sam

1862
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:33,800
Speaker 2: has to receive a phone call from Carol King.

1863
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:36,960
Speaker 3: Uh Hi, hold on a second, Hi, please let it

1864
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:39,960
Speaker 3: be Carol wrapping up. Hold on, it's my daughters.

1865
01:29:39,439 --> 01:29:42,519
Speaker 2: Your daughter, my daughter, she's good. Okay, No, no.

1866
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:44,040
Speaker 3: Don't you know called me in the car once. That

1867
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 3: was a great flex. Ringo calls in the car. Fuck yeah,

1868
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:49,320
Speaker 3: I got Ringo calls. And the one that I'd say

1869
01:29:49,320 --> 01:29:50,720
Speaker 3: is Ringo called in the car one day and I

1870
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:52,920
Speaker 3: was driving around with it here. This is like the

1871
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:54,240
Speaker 3: name drop of all name drops.

1872
01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:55,639
Speaker 2: Is it Ringo? Please say?

1873
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:58,000
Speaker 3: Oh my god, no, it's my you know love this.

1874
01:29:58,000 --> 01:29:59,920
Speaker 3: This is what my life's devolved to. Is my parking.

1875
01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:03,000
Speaker 3: My parking expires in ten minutes in not Grisco, New York.

1876
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 3: Just important factory. But right now fun fight, definitely not.

1877
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 3: But one thing I'll tell you about Ringo is it

1878
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 3: took me like five years to even get his phone number.

1879
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:18,960
Speaker 3: And we you know, we wrote a bunch of songs

1880
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 3: and finally I hit him up. I was like, Dad,

1881
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:23,479
Speaker 3: you gotta give me your phone number. And he's like,

1882
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:26,759
Speaker 3: I'm not giving you my fucking number. And I was like, okay,

1883
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:28,639
Speaker 3: because I'll give you like the landline in our house

1884
01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 3: that goes to an answer machine. Neither I'll call you

1885
01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 3: back or I won't.

1886
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:32,960
Speaker 2: Like Bill Murray, Yes, it was very Bill Murray, but

1887
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 2: you know, truthfully, I did it because I'm desperate.

1888
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:37,400
Speaker 3: So one night I left on a message and then

1889
01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:39,719
Speaker 3: I flew down to Florida and I'm driving around Florida.

1890
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:44,080
Speaker 3: You're gonna dig this flex. It's me, my my brother's

1891
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:48,000
Speaker 3: brother in law, Peter and Bill Cower, ex coach of

1892
01:30:48,040 --> 01:30:49,759
Speaker 3: the Hall of Fame, coach of the Lisburgs Dealers.

1893
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:52,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesus. And we're driving home with cousin Jake. Who's

1894
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:53,840
Speaker 2: fucking cousin Jake?

1895
01:30:53,840 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 3: How about this visual? So we're riding around, it's Cower

1896
01:30:56,640 --> 01:31:00,880
Speaker 3: and Peter and the phone rings and answer it and

1897
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:03,680
Speaker 3: I hear, hey, you don't think you help him in?

1898
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,559
Speaker 3: And I do do, and I just go right to

1899
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 3: speaker with it with no exposition. I'm like, what's up, man,

1900
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:11,800
Speaker 3: what do you got? He's like, what are you doing?

1901
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:14,120
Speaker 3: And I just see both of their faces sort of

1902
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:16,720
Speaker 3: do that thing, and I go, hey, Ringo, say how

1903
01:31:16,720 --> 01:31:20,880
Speaker 3: to coach Bill and Peter. It's a true story, and

1904
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:25,519
Speaker 3: Ringo definitely. I didn't. You know, I didn't go further

1905
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:26,960
Speaker 3: on coach Bill or Peter.

1906
01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 2: What's on your phone? Did it say Ringo?

1907
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:31,760
Speaker 3: No? So the thing about it is he he's one

1908
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:33,760
Speaker 3: of those people who comes with one of the block

1909
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:36,880
Speaker 3: numbers or whatever. Yeah, so it says, and so I

1910
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:38,760
Speaker 3: think that's either there's only three people I know who

1911
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:42,639
Speaker 3: have that. It's Ringo, my friend Matt Nathanson, and another flex.

1912
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 2: Those are very different people.

1913
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:50,599
Speaker 3: You've never seen them in the same room, and.

1914
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:50,840
Speaker 2: Nor would you ever Why would bring gooing Matt.

1915
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 3: Nathan ever go Matt Nathanson and my brother Ben. My

1916
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:56,240
Speaker 3: brother Ben calls for one of those numbers too, So

1917
01:31:56,520 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 3: how do.

1918
01:31:56,880 --> 01:31:59,880
Speaker 2: You answer it? FBI, He's just he's a very covert fella,

1919
01:32:00,160 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 2: you know.

1920
01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:03,479
Speaker 3: But I would say so somewhere, So I answered it.

1921
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:06,120
Speaker 3: It happened to be Ringo. And that was a great

1922
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:09,479
Speaker 3: reveal for everyone in the car. Okay, that's all I got,

1923
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 3: you know, the good folks. I just want to I

1924
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:18,600
Speaker 3: want to thank him here. That was honestly, thank you.

1925
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:21,599
Speaker 2: I'd get so much for this. This might hey, Jake,

1926
01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 2: this might be my last and only podcast.

1927
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:25,800
Speaker 3: Can we just say one thing?

1928
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cop Rock cop Rock.

1929
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:30,960
Speaker 3: Why is ninety Stephen Botchko one season replacement?

1930
01:32:31,040 --> 01:32:37,320
Speaker 2: Sam Hollander, You the king of the name dropped like Minutia.

1931
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:39,080
Speaker 3: You know it was a great mid season replacement.

1932
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:39,880
Speaker 2: Who what?

1933
01:32:40,240 --> 01:32:42,519
Speaker 3: Manimal? Google? Manimal?

1934
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:43,160
Speaker 2: What was that?

1935
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 3: Y'all weren't born yet? But if you know Manimal?

1936
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:46,479
Speaker 2: How old are you really?

1937
01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:50,240
Speaker 3: Uh? Well, we say so far? Twenty eight ninety four?

1938
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:52,800
Speaker 2: Pie carry the one.

1939
01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:55,040
Speaker 3: You're Honestly, a lot of people would say seven.

1940
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:57,240
Speaker 2: You're fifty? Your what fifty two?

1941
01:32:57,479 --> 01:33:00,439
Speaker 3: I don't know what that is? What is a fifty? Wow?

1942
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:01,000
Speaker 2: Old are you really?

1943
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:01,800
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1944
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:07,879
Speaker 2: You look like you piloted Jimmy Buffett's boat.

1945
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:11,000
Speaker 3: She should look like should look like me and Jack

1946
01:33:11,080 --> 01:33:16,679
Speaker 3: Klugman at the racetrack, you know, ponies in nineteen sixty nine.

1947
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,840
Speaker 2: I think collectively that you and I look like Stafford

1948
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:22,599
Speaker 2: and Waldorf from the fucking Muppets, and we could probably

1949
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:25,639
Speaker 2: be them when we get a little bit older or

1950
01:33:25,640 --> 01:33:26,040
Speaker 2: for you.

1951
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:28,800
Speaker 3: Not old for me, for you, just man for me

1952
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 3: growing down?

1953
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:32,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, it looks like you run a teaky bar

1954
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:33,960
Speaker 2: in Marathon.

1955
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:37,519
Speaker 3: Key. Look here's the thing. I'm a festive guys. I

1956
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:42,720
Speaker 3: think you've noticed and I'm spirited. I'm joyous until i'm not.

1957
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:48,040
Speaker 2: You look like you celebrate Hanukkah three hundred and sixties

1958
01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:53,439
Speaker 2: in Margarita Ville. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much

1959
01:33:53,479 --> 01:33:55,960
Speaker 2: for listening to me and Sam talk about songwriting and

1960
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:59,200
Speaker 2: our lives and Judaism and all those things. Okay, I'll

1961
01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:01,320
Speaker 2: leave it this because I look, we've known each other

1962
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:03,519
Speaker 2: a while. I don't read books. I read your whole

1963
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:05,280
Speaker 2: fucking book, Sam, and I feel like you need to

1964
01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 2: understand that that's a big deal.

1965
01:34:07,200 --> 01:34:07,880
Speaker 3: Let me tell you something.

1966
01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:10,000
Speaker 2: But hold on, No, no, you talked a lot. I'm talking,

1967
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:13,519
Speaker 2: so then it is your interview. But who cares. Okay,

1968
01:34:13,640 --> 01:34:15,880
Speaker 2: there's a great there's a great line where you're giving

1969
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:17,680
Speaker 2: with one of your bonus cut tracks, whatever the hell

1970
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:20,240
Speaker 2: you call it. You wrote you write stay Wild and

1971
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:22,680
Speaker 2: stay Weird, And I feel like that hit home for me.

1972
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:25,800
Speaker 2: The reason is is because I think that that's important.

1973
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:27,760
Speaker 2: Like if there's anything I've learned from Sam, it's like

1974
01:34:27,800 --> 01:34:29,920
Speaker 2: he's a true original. He doesn't succumb to any of

1975
01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 2: the bullshit, and he does Sam, and I feel like that,

1976
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:36,439
Speaker 2: in addition to this shirt is like really sums the

1977
01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 2: whole thing up, and I think that if you want

1978
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:41,360
Speaker 2: to leave anything here, personally speaking, I want to leave

1979
01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:43,080
Speaker 2: with that, and I think that that's a good moment.

1980
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:45,839
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Sam Hollander, You're a fucking legend

1981
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:47,040
Speaker 2: to say whatever you want.

1982
01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:48,679
Speaker 3: It's a Paul Smith shirt.

1983
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:53,160
Speaker 2: It costs so much money in addition to my customs,

1984
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:56,599
Speaker 2: Ford Broncos and all of this in Bedford Hills.

1985
01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:59,120
Speaker 3: Can I say something, can say something? Yes, yes, go ahead.

1986
01:35:00,080 --> 01:35:02,720
Speaker 3: Here's what I would say. The most important thing I

1987
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:04,360
Speaker 3: want to say about stay wild and stay weird.

1988
01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:05,800
Speaker 2: I thought so that should be your shirt.

1989
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:08,960
Speaker 4: You know, market What I believe, I truly believe this

1990
01:35:09,680 --> 01:35:15,240
Speaker 4: is if you are blessed enough to do this with

1991
01:35:15,320 --> 01:35:18,880
Speaker 4: your life professionally, and you catch some breaks and you

1992
01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:23,719
Speaker 4: actually get to, you know, turn some of these weird

1993
01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:25,400
Speaker 4: fucking dreams and realities.

1994
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,360
Speaker 3: It should never be lost on you how crazy it is.

1995
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:33,240
Speaker 3: And don't conform. If you ever were able to permeate

1996
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:35,679
Speaker 3: the system as an outsider, I was the ultimate outsider.

1997
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:38,200
Speaker 3: I didn't want to play with inside the lines. I mean, honestly,

1998
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 3: I'm so unfiltered, and usually you're punished for that. But thankfully,

1999
01:35:44,479 --> 01:35:46,800
Speaker 3: the music business if you have any success, you're actually

2000
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:50,479
Speaker 3: rewarded for it, which is crazy. And so what I've

2001
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 3: learned in all these years of doing it is I just, honestly,

2002
01:35:54,080 --> 01:35:57,160
Speaker 3: I trust my own weird little inner mechanisms. I chase

2003
01:35:57,240 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 3: whatever I chase, and I'm just I don't have the

2004
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:03,479
Speaker 3: best time possible doing it because I still wake up

2005
01:36:03,520 --> 01:36:05,920
Speaker 3: every fucking day and I can't even believe that I

2006
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 3: got to do this in my life because there were

2007
01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:10,320
Speaker 3: not a lot of other options.

2008
01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:14,120
Speaker 2: Take it from us, two lawyers, Thank you, goodnight, thank you,

2009
01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:19,560
Speaker 2: thank you for listening to Quest Love Supreme. This podcast

2010
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:23,400
Speaker 2: is hosted by Mere Quest Love Thompson, Liyah Saint, Clair Sugar,

2011
01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:27,440
Speaker 2: Steve Mandel, and myself unpaid Bill Schrman. The executive producers

2012
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:30,920
Speaker 2: are Meir just walked into the Goddamn room, Thompson, Sean

2013
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:34,679
Speaker 2: g and Brian Calhoun. Produced by Brittany Benjamin, Jake Paine

2014
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 2: and Liahs Sinclair. Edited by Alex Conroy I Know Alex Conroy.

2015
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:41,439
Speaker 2: Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown.

2016
01:36:49,280 --> 01:36:57,840
Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For

2017
01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:01,559
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple

2018
01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:04,320
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,