WEBVTT - Cord Jefferson 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.880 When I say your name, there's this kind of like 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.600 starry eyed thing that they get, which I think is 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:12.440 the confluence of having been educated and entertained like your film, 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.960 and they're just like, oh my god, like you really 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.720 whoa Like they have a very visceral response to you. 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.320 That's a delight to hear the fact that the movie's 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:24.919 sticking with people. To me, that's the testament of quality 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.720 of how frequently I think of something after I've consumed it. 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:29.200 So it's nice to hear. 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.800 Yeah, And I think it's a marker of something that 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.160 is actually sustainable. I heard a great story about Bob 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.320 Dylan remarking to his son as his son had sold 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:42.360 I think six million records or something with a lot 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.760 of records, maybe more than a Dylan record had sold. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:59.840 And Dylan's response was great, now do it for thirty years. Yeah, Hello, 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:00.920 I'm mini driver. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:03.520 I've always loved Prust's questionnaire. 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:08.160 It was originally in nineteenth century parlor game where players 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.560 would ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:15.399 the other player's true nature. In asking different people the 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.839 same set of questions, you can make observations about which 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.399 truths appear to be universal, And it made me wonder, 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:24.360 what if these questions were just a jumping off one, 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:27.560 what greater depths would be revealed if I asked these 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:32.080 questions as conversation starters. So I adapted Prus's questionnaire and 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:34.840 I wrote my own seven questions that I personally think 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.959 are pertinent to a person's story. They are when and 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.720 where were you happiest? What is the quality you like 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.280 least about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:49.680 for you? What question would you most like answered, What person, place, 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:51.840 or experience has shaped you the most? 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:53.520 What would be your last meal? 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.240 And can you tell me something in your life that's 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.640 grown out of a personal disaster? And I've gathered a 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:04.480 group of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.800 and humbled to have had the chance to engage with. 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:09.600 You may not hear their answers to all seven of 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.640 these questions. We've whittled it down to which questions felt 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:18.040 closest to their experience or the most surprising, or created 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:23.120 the most fertile ground to connect. My guest today is 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.920 the Academy Award winning writer and director Cord Jefferson. Cord 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.799 created the movie American fiction, the cracklingly smart film, which 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.359 expands and updates Personval ever its two thousand and one 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.480 novel Erasure. Now, if you listen to this show regularly, 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.680 you'll know it's not really a setup for any kind 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.280 of promo. But what it does offer, and what Cord 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.200 so brilliantly explores in our chat, is the opportunity to 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:52.080 investigate the way of the creative heart and to consciously 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:58.640 reveal that, well, it ain't all roses. He introduced me 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.840 to the idea of the third place problem, which observes 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.960 that we are missing spaces outside of our home and 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:09.960 places of work to interact with and build community. We 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.720 also talked about a shared love of spectacle cuisine, which 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.440 is a genre I've just created, And you're allowed me 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.320 to tell a story about this guy who once used 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:20.920 a live crab of a seafood tower to try and 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:24.360 clip the end of his cigar. This is one of 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.480 the most honest and raw conversations that I've had about life, 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:32.200 the space we take up and are inherited, trauma, and 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:36.080 the lives of our generationally distant parents. It was an 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:38.080 honor and a privilege to talk. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:44.240 Where and when were you. 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:49.400 Happiest right now, in this very moment. I'm in New 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.440 York City in a hotel, and I think that I am. 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.160 I'm the happiest now that I've ever been a happiest. 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.600 Happiness has been a very elusive thing for me for 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.400 a very long time. Yeah, I always assumed that contentment 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:04.080 wasn't going to be a thing for me, that I 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.400 was always going to be sort of like searching and struggling, 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.680 and that was just that was just my temperament, I thought, 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:11.600 And that was just going to be you know, other 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.720 people could be happy and I was just not going 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:15.480 to be one of those people. And I just kind 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.880 of grinded it out like that for decades. And in 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.160 twenty eighteen, I was thirty six, and it was the 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.960 worst year of my life, truly, you know, shockingly, because 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.000 on the surface, everything was going well. It was my 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:33.760 career was flourishing, and I was making all this money, 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.960 more money than I ever made before, and I was, 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.920 you know, working on all these great projects. But you know, 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.320 behind the scenes, I was just always miserable. I would 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:44.719 cry in the shower and sort of like I have 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:46.279 to pull all my car over to the side of 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.560 the road because I was weeping, and I just generally 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.359 felt miserable, and I felt like this is unsustainable. It 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.520 felt like I can't keep living like this and being 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:59.440 miserable like this, And you know, I knew that somehow 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:02.280 I I was going to destroy my life if I 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.239 didn't sort of get some help, and so I decided 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.800 to go to therapy in twenty eighteen. I've basically been 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.279 going to weekly therapy, if not more since since then, 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.600 so it'll be seven years next year. And also when 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.320 I turned forty on my fortieth birthday, my gift to 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.360 myself was that I started taking zoloft. I started taking 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.800 an antidepressant and anti anxiety medication, which has kind of 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.919 changed my life in a very real way. And so 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.640 all of a sudden, for the past year or so, 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:34.919 I've taken a step back and realize, like, oh, is 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.160 this Maybe this is what happiness feels like. I think 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.800 that maybe I feel happy for the first time in 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.400 my adult life. It's a strange feeling, because sometimes, you know, 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:49.000 I wake up sort of I have this muscle memory of, well, 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.760 it's time to wake up and realize why you're miserable today, 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:59.040 and sort of that instinct I still have that sometimes, 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:00.960 But then I sit there and I realized that, well, 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.000 there's no reason to be miserable today, Like things are 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.680 going pretty well, and yeah there's challenges here and there, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.160 of course, but it's no longer the kind of gloom 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.279 that just kind of was hanging over me constantly. And 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.040 so I think that at the age of yeah, at 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.560 the age of forty two, I finally feel like I'm 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.400 the happiest I've ever been, which is it's exciting to 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.159 have finally reached this position because especially when I had 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.760 sort of resigned myself to the idea that it would 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:27.599 never happen for me. 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.360 Wow, was it a conscious thing? 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:33.839 Like when you were younger, did you really have a 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.480 kind of executive chat with yourself that was like, look, 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:38.520 you and me called we're never going to be happy, 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.720 and this is just how it is, and I'm going 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.800 to do all this other stuff, but happiness is not 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.240 anything I'm going to set my coordinates for. Like, was 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:47.000 it that conscious? 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.000 Yeah, we always think that we're hiding stuff from our parents, 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.080 but it's kind of silly and sort of like when 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.240 you get older to think that you could hide anything 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:56.240 from your parents. Really, your parents know you so well, 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.960 and when I was nineteen, my mother said to me, 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.080 I think that you have clinical depression. And I said, 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.800 I get out of bed, I go to school, I 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.160 hold down a job, I exercise, Like all these things 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.160 that I had been taught were sort of like hallmarks 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.720 of a depressive. I was like, that doesn't bear any 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.000 resemblance to my life, and so I think that you're 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.240 you know, you're wrong. But what I did say was like, yeah, 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.880 I think that I have a gloomy temperament from time 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.440 to time, and I certainly think that I'm a cynic 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.640 in many ways. But you know, to me, that was 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:33.000 just I was just a young realist and this the 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.360 world is hell and the world is pain, and I thought, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:36.800 you know, I really wanted to be in like a 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.640 French new wave movie and like smoking cigarettes and kind 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.960 of nihilistic, and I thought that that was kind of cool. 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:44.760 And it was like, that's okay, if this is how 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.080 it's going to be, because you know, you have an 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.760 artistic temperament, we'll say, and kind of it's okay, you're 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.920 kind of grumpy and you know, surly, I would say, 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.040 but I thought that that was okay. I sort of 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.600 had this foolish idea that I think a lot of 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.080 young aspiring artists do, which is that you know, art 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.200 comes from your pain and your misery. You know, that's 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.920 where the good stuff comes from, is from being upset 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.320 all the time, and that you know, happy art is 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.640 boring art, and that kind of thing. And I think 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.120 that it was okay to me because it felt like 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.240 that was my heroes. My heroes were like Miles Davis, 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.800 like these surly artists who were sort of like mean 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.600 to people and self destructive, and it was like, that's 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:28.840 who I want to be like. And so to me, 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.120 it felt like it was a fair deal with myself 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.760 that you're going to be unhappy, but you're also going 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.559 to sort of live a creative life, and a lot 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.480 of creative people are unhappy, and so that's okay. And 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.920 so I did, actually, you know, have a conversation with 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.000 myself and just think like that's okay, because I think 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.280 that there's also this thing that like it means that 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.040 you see something that other people don't. There's James Baldwin 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.360 quote that I'm going to paraphrase where he says, to 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.480 be black and halfway conscious in the United States is 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.440 to be in a near constant state of rage. And 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:01.360 I think that that was sort of like another thing 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:05.320 that it just felt like, you know, ignorance is bliss, 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.560 and so it felt like, you know, the stupid happy 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:09.360 people were sort of like the ones that I didn't 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.960 want to be like and that I wanted to separate 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.719 myself from. And so I was somebody who was thoughtful 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.840 and considered the world and paid attention, and so because 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.120 of that, I was also destined to just be miserable 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.680 all the time. And yeah, I was just a stupid kid, 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:26.640 you know, you realize now and I'm forty two. I 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:28.560 used to think that I didn't want to live to 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.760 turn forty. I was like, you know, after fortyes boring, 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.680 like you got to get the good stuff when you're young, 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.600 Like who cares when you're forty five? Like how lame 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.680 must life be when you're that age? And I think 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.680 that now. The thing that I've realized when I finally 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.920 sort of met this therapist to one of the things 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:47.679 that I was dealing with in twenty eighteen was that 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:49.720 my mother had died in twenty sixteen and I was 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.400 still grieving her, and I wasn't really doing what I 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.079 needed to do to process that grief. And so when 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.480 I went and met my therapist, he told me, I 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:00.560 think that you have clinical depression. That was the first 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.959 thing that he said, Well, actually that's not It was 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.120 very funny that he said that because my first session 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.559 with him, I came in and I tried to explain 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:11.719 why I wanted to meet him, and then I just 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.960 started crying, and I cried as I spoke for about 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.040 five to ten minutes, and then he goes, you know what, 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:24.360 I think that you might be depressed, And it turned 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.520 out that it was exactly right. Yeah, And I said 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:29.200 the same thing that I said to my mother. You know, 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.120 I exercise, I get out of bed. And he said, 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.439 you know, the same way that there's highly functioning alcoholics, 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.480 there's highly functioning drug addicts, like there's highly functioning depressives too. 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.400 So it's not that you don't have this just because 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:44.240 you're able to achieve those things. It means that imagine 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.839 what you could achieve if you didn't have this thing 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:48.480 hanging over your head all the time. That's how you 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.640 should look at it. And so that was really eye 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.120 opening for me. And then beyond that, I've realized like 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.440 learning to sort of like get over my issues and 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.160 taking the meds and doing the work in therapy. The 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.800 work has gotten better because I'm happy, you know, like 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:09.079 my creativity I feel like is skyrocketed now that I'm 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.440 sort of not dealing with that stuff anymore, because you know, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:16.200 it opened up a world of new emotions to me, firstly, 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.920 and then secondly, it's just made me more pleasant to 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:21.240 be around, and it's made me more excited to be 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.640 around other people, and it's made me more excited to 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.440 talk to collaborators and to work in an environment in 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.600 which I'm having a healthy creative relationship with a lot 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.360 of different people. Like it's just if anything that's put 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.040 my creativity I feel like on a high speed rail. 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.400 And so it was just I'm really really happy that 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.280 I didn't self destruct before I reached this point because 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.560 it's been just so eye opening and so thrilling. It 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.480 feels like I've been reborn in some ways and I 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.640 have a second opportunity of life. It really does. 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.400 Wow, I'm so glad that you're happiest now. 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:56.240 Thanks. 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:02.360 Yeah, so interesting, Like you don't strike me as yeah, yeah, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.120 but I love that he lives inside of you. 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.600 But that's because I learned. I got really good at 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.400 suppressing it. You know, I got really good at playing 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.000 playing the game. I got really good being able to 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.040 walk into a room and convince people that I was, like, yeah, 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.280 I'm the happiest guy in the room. That was like 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.960 a real quality that I had. But that made it 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.480 even worse, you know, because then nobody really knew how 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.360 I felt. And that's why I would cry alone, is 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.720 because I was never actually sharing my honest self with anybody. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.400 I was always hiding it, and so that just augmented 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:32.839 the problems that I was already having. 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.320 So what is the quality you like least about yourself 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.679 if you've been kind of excavating them? 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:45.600 How to access the happier bit. 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.760 I'm very very self critical. I really am my own 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.600 harshest critic. I find it difficult to appreciate myself. I 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.680 find it difficult to accept my faults. I find it 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.760 difficult to forgive myself for making mistakes. A large part 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.400 of my therapy is spent going over my relationship with 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.600 my father, and he looms so large in my life 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.680 and so large in my psyche, and he was a 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.520 very demanding figure. It's very hard on us high expectations. 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.760 And I was sitting with a friend a couple of 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.120 years ago, another friend who's going over sort of like 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.600 dealing with her own issues with her parents. And I 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:25.560 was telling her that I'm embarrassed at how much I 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.320 criticized myself. And I said, you know, I have a problem. 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:30.120 I've never been a person that can sort of like 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.120 wake up and go back to sleep. Like that's rare 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:36.440 for me, because when I wake up, there's always a 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.640 voice in my head going, you better get your ass 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.720 out of bed. You know, you better get to work, 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.040 like you're lazy, You're not working hard enough. What's going on? 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.480 What's wrong with you? Like everybody out there is going 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.320 to sort of like beat you. And I told her this, 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.600 and she said, you should ask yourself, why is that 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:56.320 voice speaking to you in the second person. Why wouldn't 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:58.240 you say I need to get out of bed. Why 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.640 are you saying you need to get out of it right? 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.600 Why is that kind of disembodied that way? And I realized, like, oh, 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.679 because it's probably my father's voice. It's not me speaking 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.880 to myself. It's sort of like me replicating the conversations 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:12.679 I had with my father in my own head, and 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.600 so I have adopted that criticism and sort of started 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:20.240 criticizing myself, and it's frustrating, but it's also there's also 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.600 part of me that's like, maybe it's useful I will 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.480 distill my relationship with my father into this story that 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:29.760 I had, actually I think like suppressed for a long time, 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:31.680 but it's come up in the recent years and I 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.360 think about it often. I used to play a lot 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.400 of soccer when I was a kid, and my parents 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.560 got me private coaching lessons with this guy on the weekends, 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.400 and so on Saturdays I would go and sometimes there'd 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.840 be two of us. Sometimes there'd be three or four 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.040 of us, but at the end of every session you 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.000 would have a scrimmage, and so if it was four 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:53.920 of us, would be two on two. But that day 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:55.280 there was just two of us, so we did one 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.440 on one. And I'm from Arizona, so it's you know, 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.600 one hundred and eleven degrees in the summertime. It's Saturday. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.560 I've been out here running like so hot, I'm so tired, 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.200 and I'm playing against this kid. As he's dribbling the 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.560 ball toward me, I hear this voice out of nowhere 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.720 scream beat him, beat him, he's tired, beat him. And 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.280 I look to the side and my father has shown 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.440 up early and he's rooting for the other boy in 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.720 the scrimmage, like my own dad has shown up to 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:30.720 like cheer against me at this game. And so I 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.680 can't even remember what happened, but you know, practice is over. 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.320 I remember sitting in the car next to him and 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:38.680 we're like driving in silence. I'm so mad at him, 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:42.400 I'm embarrassed, I'm angry, and we're driving along in silence, 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.120 and at a certain point he turns to me and 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.520 he said, nobody in life is going to be harder 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.080 on you than I am, and that's going to make 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.920 you strong. That's going to make you resilient, and it's 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:55.400 going to make you strong. And looking back on that, 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.680 I am incredibly resilient. I know. 0:15:57.800 --> 0:15:59.800 But perhaps does he get to take the credit. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:01.920 I'm not trying to say that this is like a 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.680 rosy story that I look back on fondly. It's certainly 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.600 a painful story in some ways. But what I'm saying 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.680 is I do believe that there was something in there 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.600 that has helped me. You know, you have to injure 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.800 your muscles for your muscles to grow, so like you 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:19.680 have to go through pain in order to sort of 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.040 get stronger in some ways. And it is a quality 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.200 that I think every artist needs to have, especially like 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:29.280 you really need to have just an undefeatable resilience. You 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.240 just need to wake up every day and say, like, 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.080 I don't care if all of these people said no 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.600 to me. I'm going to keep going. And so look, 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.360 I think that there's probably other healthier ways to learn 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.480 that lesson, but I developed it in the way that 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.720 I developed it. And so you know, as much as 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:45.400 I look at those moments and I'm like I wish 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.400 that we would have gone about that differently, I can't 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.160 look at it and say that it hasn't helped me 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:51.640 in some way. Does that make sense? 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:52.680 It does. 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:54.040 Yeah. 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.240 There was a dark night of the soul with my father, 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.160 who said a lot of stuff as fathers to, but 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.600 I do remember on one agonizing occasion, well, I again 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.080 just didn't really want to hear this particular thing was he. 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.680 Said, It's all a gift. It's all this agony. 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.520 All of this failure, all of this self pity, all 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.840 of this heartbreak, it is all a gift and all 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.800 your job is is to calibrate yourself to be able 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.439 to take that gift and turn into something else. And 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.359 it's brutal, but it was true. I think there was 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.040 a kind of way. I think it's often with our parents. 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.000 It could have been more kindly offered, but it is 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:33.560 all a gift. 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.199 I agree with that. I think that you have to 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:37.000 be able to. 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:58.359 Adapt what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you. 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.720 Have you ever seen a film Cold War? Oh? 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:02.240 Yeah? 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.040 Cold War for me is the love story that I 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.359 think is the one that struck me as being the 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.960 one that I find like most romantic, despite the fact 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.480 that it's incredibly dark and sad. In case people haven't 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.800 seen Cold War, it's a Polish film about the Cold 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.719 War from the forties to the sixties, and it's this couple. 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:22.399 They sort of fall in love and I believe that 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.359 he's a bandleader and she's a singer, or maybe he's 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.399 just a musician and she's a singer. I don't remember, 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.800 but they fall in love and they decide one day 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.000 that they're going to run away to West Berlin and 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:36.879 I think they're doing a show in East Berlin, and 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.000 they decide they're going to flee to West Berlin, and 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.440 that night when he decides to flee, she doesn't show up, 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.479 and so he tries to go by himself, and I 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.480 believe he gets conn I can't remember. But anyway, circumstance 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.240 and time takes them apart and they come back together, 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:52.360 and then time takes them apart again when they find 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.440 each other another time. You know, they are both in relationships. 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.639 She's now married, he's got a new woman that he's dating. 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.560 But then they meet each other my hamp and stance 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.000 again and it's like he says to her, you are 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.480 the woman of my life. And despite the fact that 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.800 they haven't seen each other in like seven or eight years, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.600 he's like, I still love you. And then they're taking 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.840 a part again. And I just think that that, to 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.560 me is like the endurance of that part of that 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:21.560 is appealing to me, because you know, I think that 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.720 when you join this industry that we are in, you 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.479 kind of almost literally are joining the circus. You know, 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.639 it's like you're on the road, you're traveling all the time, 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.480 you're not in one place for a very long and 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.639 so you really need to sort of know that the 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:39.720 people in your life are going to still love you 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.640 even if you're gone for six months or two years, 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.479 Like you can come back and feel like, you know, 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.239 you haven't forgotten about me, and I haven't forgotten about you, 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:52.359 and like the love that we had still endures, and 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.000 the feelings that I had about you still endure. And 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.000 I think that that, to me has always felt like 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:00.879 the most beautiful love story is that sort of like 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.240 time and circumstance can come in and take you away 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.600 from each other, but despite the fact, like there's still 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.560 a flame there. I just think that that's so beautiful. 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.040 I think it's Harboca something like that. I remember going 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.840 to see his movies as a kid in London and 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.439 Harville Pavlakowski. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:19.600 Public Cloud Pavlakowski. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:24.680